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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
190
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!
Some of the changes herein are significant, so I'm going to lay out our overall tiericide and balance principles at the top of each race's thread, and also provide ship-by-ship explanation. I encourage you to read both before hitting the caps lock key, you may find answers to some of your questions and concerns.
Tiericide - Our effort to destroy ship tiers continues. With battleships, the tiers were most evident in HP amounts and price. All variations had an equal allocation of slots already (19), except drone bonused hulls or disruption hulls, which wonGÇÖt change. As usual, we will be dividing battleships into roles rather than tiers. The distribution will be as follows: One 'Attack' Battleship for each race, and two 'Combat' Battleships for each race (except Caldari, who will retain the only 'Disruption' Battleship for the time being). With these new roles in mind, we will be adjusting hitpoint amounts for all combat battleships near the former tier 3 hitpoint numbers, while the attack hulls will sit closer to the former tier 2s. As with other ship classes, attack battleships will be faster, more agile, and will focus more on damage application and projection than their combat counterparts. Cost of production will be adjusted to reflect tiericide, but so far we have not settled on exact numbers.
Exciting roles for every ship and every race - One of our main goals during this balance pass is to see that each battleship has a lot to offer, and that each race has access to all of Eve's environments. Formerly, the battleship line had strange overlaps and gaps which left certain races excluded from certain styles of play and other races with more than one option for a certain role. This new distribution should hopefully provide new options and excitement for players of all races.
I am breaking the post into four, by race, with the hope of isolating feedback. We look forward to hearing what you all have to say.
Without further ado:
GALLENTE
Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 15750 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Megathron:
Let me say it right out - 8 high, 5 mid, 6 low. With the Megathron moving into an attack role explicitly, we felt that it could really focus on its strengths as a flexible, fast, hybrid damage machine. The new slot layout opens options like dual propulsion with microwarp drive as well as microjump drive. It opens options to tank with shield or armor. It offers more ewar resilience or tackle. The sum of all of these examples is a ship that feels more like a tempest, less like a Hyperion. For us, this matches the intended personality of an attack ship, and we hope you agree.
We've also moved some of its damage from drones to the guns by switching the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus (rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need.
As one of Eve's most iconic ships, we expect you to have strong opinions here. Please share them. We're very excited about this version of the ship and hope you are too!
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / M... |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
799
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
first, don't forget to make these sticky Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
gr ant
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
OHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHHHHH |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
163
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dominix doesn't need changing o7
Leave my Hybrid bonus **** sentry drone fleets in the ass |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
301
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
I liked my navy 1400+ dps (garde + rails) domi for missions,but i assume this will make drone users happy i just dont think it will be viable as gank setup for missions anymore. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Kristoffon Ellecon
Kris' Karebear Killing Korp
58
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Please carry changes over to faction versions. Psychotic Monk for CSM |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
426
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Meh. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Can we get fozzie to look at the gallente bs please? |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
361
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
How will this affect the Megathron Federate Issue? GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
301
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Entity wrote:How will this affect the Megathron Federate Issue?
unfortunately you will have to pass them to me http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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TeeKay Latef
BINFORD Cha Ching PLC
1
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:Hyperion[...] Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers
You forgot -1 launcher! |
Ouya Sfahei
Horizon Corp
8
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Well, there goes my shield tank Hyperion for incursions. |
Mizhir
Shrubbery Acquisitions
12173
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ouya Sfahei wrote:Well, there goes my shield tank Hyperion for incursions.
Just use a Mega :D We will never forget you Saede!
I bet you dont see things like this so often in EVE |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2406
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Do not like the Megathron changes one bit. That missing low-slot is going to seriously hurt, as is the loss of the launcher slot for those of us who wanted to go pure DPS - and if you're going to give a rate-of-fire bonus to a ship whose guns use capacitor, could you at least retool the capacitor recharge rate as well to compensate? Mane 614
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Shubs
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
for the love of god, leave the megathron alone, the changes on it are terribad |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
799
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
F3X5ON
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
The -1 lowslot will make my dual rep mega better. Thanks CCP! |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
153
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
How about bringing back the old megathron model while you're at it? The new one is disgusting. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1444
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: as is the loss of the launcher slot for those of us who wanted to go pure DPS -
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Catlos JeminJees
E.M.P. Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
65
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
the Hyperion is like a starving 3rd world kid and you gave it some shoes instead of food.. for shame |
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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
426
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 14:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
After looking at Amarr and energy neutralisers online, the lack of change to active tanking bonuses is even more lol.
/o\ Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Logan Fyreite
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
26
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Most unnoticed change of the Mega is the loss of the ability to fly with five heavy drones. That's going to hurt. |
Just Smith
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
I take it this is a joke list of changes and your real planed changes are going to come later, as this has to be one of the most screwed up list of changes i seen in 10 years of playing eve when it comes to ship balancing. |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
These changes resulted in a nerf for the dominix and the megathron. Gallente are already poor at PVE, why are you making it worse? |
Tsubutai
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
183
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Not certain about the merits of taking a mid from the hype - it really needs the dual injectors to run a decent active tank, and with four mids that means it can't fit full tackle any more. Might be better to remove one of its highs instead, give it a stronger damage bonus to compensate for the lost gun, and let it keep the 5 mids. |
Lenier Chenal
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
33
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hyperion is still crap CCP. Domi is an ok change, but I'd appreciate another low slot.
You've made the mega better at least, totally epic now. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hyperion losing a mid yet expected to active rep (ie losing a cap booster slot)??? So if you want to active rep it then you have to drop the web and that makes it, as a solo ship, a thing of the past. Really sad. (now its just pure bait.) Simply won't hold up its reps long enough with only one heavy cap booster, especially with neuts on the field. This is terrible.
The Domi....don't know...... 1) if no turret bonus then might as well move one more High slot to a mid or low. Probably low. 2) I think the day of drone boats having one less slot should be long past. Every race now has tons of drones, and while unbonused, certainly enjoy from their benefits. A drone boat is in no way so OP because of drones that having the same number of slots would unbalance it.
So in my opinion, just flat out add a low slot to the Domi. And to be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring out why I would fly a domi over the neuting beast that will be the Geddon.
There should be a Gal EWAR BS. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
164
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Logan Fyreite wrote:Most unnoticed change of the Mega is the loss of the ability to fly with five heavy drones. That's going to hurt.
Yes the ROF change does give a DPS increase but -1 Lowslot and -1 Heavy probably doesn't equal out. Keep in mind drones are the only way for Gallente to give out Explosive or EM damage. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
523
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
Midslot deficient brawlers are terrible. And you should feel terrible for proposing to remove one of the hyperion's mids.
You should feel even MORE terrible for thinking active tank bonuses like the Hyperion's are useful in any context past arranged 1v1s. |
Ix Method
Porphyrean Genetic Enterprises
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
Would a little more speed for the Mega be out of the question? Just feels like it might struggle to run Armour given the TE nerf. |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
154
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Oh and I'm not seeing any powergrid for the dominix. |
Cmdr26
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
and there goes the dominix |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
77
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
The changes look fine to me. Will stir things up a bit.
Cap amount of domi seems to increase. Cap recharge duration looks the same => cap recharge should be listed faster but also appears the same. |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
128
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:14:00 -
[34] - Quote
I think you really can do better for the hyperion m8. Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
62
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
Its a bit odd it needs so many drone mods to do what guns can do without it i would suggest a buff to lock range and reduce the number of turrets. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
IntegralHellsing
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
I bet that if this goes ahead, people will just fit Megathron like Talos (Except it will have a neut and maybe MJD.). So much for the choice of 'shield or armour' heh. Can't say I hate it, although it's slightly disturbing that Megathron's not going to be its old self any more. |
Teroh Vizjereij
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
9
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Hmm .. if you we want to go full out drone boat on the domi ( and i like the new 2nd bonus a lot ), i think we should be able to have 2 flight's of different sentries with us with like 2 or 3 replacement sentries each.
I'd like to see a bigger drone bay to make this possible. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
62
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
Its a bit odd it needs so many drone mods to do what guns can do without it i would suggest a buff to lock range and reduce the number of turrets. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
246
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:17:00 -
[39] - Quote
Oh HELL no with the Dominix bonus. Maybe do that with the Navy Domi to keep it in line with the Navy Vexor, but keep the gun damage on the Dominix FFS. You are marginally increasing its role into a sentry gunner while gimping its current secondary role as a pretty mean blaster boat.
It's current incarnation allows it to go toe to toe with other battleships DPS-wise, and without the tracking bonus of the Megathron, the drones would aid against smaller craft.
Please do not remove the turret damage for an even more niche-role optimal bonus... seriously.
EDIT: HOLY **** I just read the Armageddon.... so now the Neut Dominix won't even be a thing. Good bye Dominix! Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1096
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hmm... |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
801
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
Its a bit odd it needs so many drone mods to do what guns can do without it i would suggest a buff to lock range and reduce the number of turrets. That is about the standard number of damage and tracking mods for a gunship, why would drones be any different? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
568
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Was hoping to come in here and see a massive boost to my old brawler Megathron. Leaving disappointed and letting the dust keep gathering on the old beast.
Had some good times in that Mega.
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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
62
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
The mega has more mass than the apoc why? please reduce the mass of the attack line down to a similar amount as the vindi and mach 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
fukier
882
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
i really an excited to see what the resistance nerf will look like... and please a polish pass on armor tanking...
plus any chance you guys will do a polish pass on the hybrid boost tallest did a while back?
for me the big things that need to be looked at is fittings for large blasters... (you did not increase the hype so its going to hurt to fit)
viability of medium rails (can you explain why anyone would use them)
and lack of flavour for hybrid ammo... remember way back when minmatar was boosted and they did ammocide and made three tiers of ammo (close range mid range and long range) and then added cool bonus like tracking and stuff... why not do that for hybrid ammo...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
387
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
don't like the mega changes 1 bit.
I would rather you drop the 8th high slot than screw with its low slots. and yeh it needs its heavy drones OMG when can i get a pic here
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Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
323
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Well, the Hyp is still crap.
It's completely unusable.
Not a diplo.-á |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
2222
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hyperion - Yes I completely agree with you. The hyperion doesn't technically need that 5th mid slot, but it was kinda useful. However, it will become a solo fleet pwning machine with that 7th lowslot I can promise you that.
Dominix - Perfect, this is exactly what I think the domi should do, unfortunately, you are making it more fleet-orientated in my opinion, but I may be proven wrong.
Megathron - 6 Lows? get out! you must be on some sort of crack or something because that is a REALLY bad idea. A megathron is fairly underused as it is. The only future I see for this, is a shield megathron, and that's only going to be for "lolroams" and not part of the pewpew in EVE. If anything, drop the Megathron's utility high slot, and replace the lowslot |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
531
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
The rebalanced Hyperion is sub-par, imo.
Switching around a medslot for a lowslot isn't bad for armor ships, but it's debatable for the Hyperion.
It's a good start but I would give it some powergrid. Active-tanked armor setups need a LOT of powergrid to be usable.
Right now, it doesn't have enough PWG to fit anything but Electron Blasters, and Railgun setups are completely out of question.
More PWG would fix most of the Hyperions' problems.
The rebalanced Megathron seems great !
I have yet to see how its mobility have been affected. If its mobility is alright, then it will be a very good ship. If it's still very bulky, it probably won't be as good as expected.
If I had one thing to say about the Megathron, I would say that its scan resolution is very low. Attack battleships are supposed to be the "skirmishing" battleships. Skirmish implies that it does things fast. It moves fast, shoots fast. But it locks slower than combat battleships. I would switch scan resolution values between the Hyperion and the Megathron.
The rebalanced Dominix is awesome. For real. It owns so much. Very nice job on this one, Gallente pilots rejoice, Kil2 has arrived.
If I had to change something, I would reduce its turret slots to 4. I think that a ship THAT good requires to be toned down somewhere, even if a turret slots change is purely cosmectic on a Dominix. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
209
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:Hyperion - Yes I completely agree with you. The hyperion doesn't technically need that 5th mid slot, but it was kinda useful. However, it will become a solo fleet pwning machine with that 7th lowslot I can promise you that.
Dominix - Perfect, this is exactly what I think the domi should do, unfortunately, you are making it more fleet-orientated in my opinion, but I may be proven wrong.
Megathron - 6 Lows? get out! you must be on some sort of crack or something because that is a REALLY bad idea. A megathron is fairly underused as it is. The only future I see for this, is a shield megathron, and that's only going to be for "lolroams" and not part of the pewpew in EVE. If anything, drop the Megathron's utility high slot, and replace the lowslot
Agreed. You are ensuring that this ship is only going to be used for shield tanking. Move the mid slot back to a low slot and reduce its mass and increase its speed. Turn it into a hit-and-run skirmisher. It can still dual prop with four mid slots. |
Loki Vice
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:35:00 -
[50] - Quote
lol the hyperion's "we know this ship is ****, but we are to stubborn to change why it is ****, so it will stay **** <3" |
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spacemongolian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote: Megathron - 6 Lows? get out! you must be on some sort of crack or something because that is a REALLY bad idea. A megathron is fairly underused as it is. The only future I see for this, is a shield megathron, and that's only going to be for "lolroams" and not part of the pewpew in EVE. If anything, drop the Megathron's utility high slot, and replace the lowslot
+1
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Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
115
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
Just looked at the Apoc. So it can apply "short range" gun damage with Scorch out FOREVER and enjoys the tracking of a Megathron? Isn't the tracking bonus a Gallente thing? I mean why would you fly a Mega over this boat? You barely even need the prop mod on an Apoc. Just sit there and kill all the things while you watch the "faster" Mega desperately run around trying to get in range to apply DPS? I mean wow...just bad. I guess you trying to make the Mega a Shield tanker, ok...well I have Talos for that. |
Jureth22
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
thank you for destroying megathron. |
Jureth22
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:Hyperion - Yes I completely agree with you. The hyperion doesn't technically need that 5th mid slot, but it was kinda useful. However, it will become a solo fleet pwning machine with that 7th lowslot I can promise you that.
Dominix - Perfect, this is exactly what I think the domi should do, unfortunately, you are making it more fleet-orientated in my opinion, but I may be proven wrong.
Megathron - 6 Lows? get out! you must be on some sort of crack or something because that is a REALLY bad idea. A megathron is fairly underused as it is. The only future I see for this, is a shield megathron, and that's only going to be for "lolroams" and not part of the pewpew in EVE. If anything, drop the Megathron's utility high slot, and replace the lowslot
+ 1 |
Capqu
Love Squad
92
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
can you give the mega another turret and drop its drones down to 50/100 so it's not completely embarrassed by the talos anymore tia http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
fukier
883
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
This is the mega i would like to see... by taking away one turret but increasing the rate of fire to 7.5% it makes up for the lost blaster and also helps with cap and fittings issues...
plus the tracking bonus being replaced with a fall off bonus will allow the mega to stay in attack skirmish warfare...
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +10% Large Hybrid Turret Fall off
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 6 turrets(-1) , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98300000 (-100000) / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20) At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession
132
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:42:00 -
[57] - Quote
I am afraid I am going to have to side with those here that aren't in favor of these changes really. The mega changes really depress me. How about this. You make the Hyperion the attack battleship and do what you need to do make it work since with these changes it still seems broken and you leave the mega alone.
|
F3X5ON
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote: Megathron - 6 Lows? get out! you must be on some sort of crack or something because that is a REALLY bad idea. A megathron is fairly underused as it is. The only future I see for this, is a shield megathron, and that's only going to be for "lolroams" and not part of the pewpew in EVE. If anything, drop the Megathron's utility high slot, and replace the lowslot
+1
|
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
247
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:56:00 -
[59] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote: Dominix - Perfect, this is exactly what I think the domi should do, unfortunately, you are making it more fleet-orientated in my opinion, but I may be proven wrong.
You are correct that it's entire purpose will be relegated to a null slowcat role and that's it. For smaller gangs it might still be used as a hospital ship, but with the Armaggedon's changes, the Neut Dominix's role is gone, and now the blaster Dominix is going to be vastly out-DPS'd by most of the other Battleships. The HP buff is a nice start, but if they INSIST on taking the Blaster damage bonus away, they should add hislots (and turrets) to the ship itself.
Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Major Killz
164
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Did CCP just make a shield-Megathron more viable? 5 mid slots? Tracking and damage bonus?
The Hyperion is has changed in a significant way. 1 extra low slots means more resistence.
- killz |
|
Saulea
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:58:00 -
[61] - Quote
OMFG, the dominix changes + armageddon changes kills the domi.. ****! It's pushed into a ****** sniper role when it already has a good shield ganker role.. or bait or rail pve etc.. now it's ****.. I can't imagine people realy useing sentry snipers in favor of guns.. the sentry dmg application is delayed by 4 seconds after you "engage" them.. and it's not like the domi can tank like a carrier or rattlesnake.. guns are instant the domi can't compete in that market.. If they wanted a sniper role for gallente they should have put hyperion in that role as it sucks at the moment anyway.. But no.. they somehow managed to not change the bonuses of the shittiest ship gallente has and at the same time ruin the most versetile one they have... WTF!? shittiest change i've seen so far.
goodbye domi :(
|
HyperZerg
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 15:58:00 -
[62] - Quote
Explain me the Megatron-changes.
If I would shoot 1 per second. With a 50% RoF Bonus I do 1.5 per sec or 2.0 per sec? What would a 100% RoF Bonus I would do 2 per sec or INFINITED per sec ?
Btw, why nerfed to Dominix to oblivion ? |
Sinigr Shadowsong
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
72
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:00:00 -
[63] - Quote
Hyperion will be used even rarer that it's now. Active armor repair bonus is just outdated and kind of "lazy" design. "Amarr passive, Gallente Active and that's it". Most players dislike this approach yet you continue to push it.
I doubt anyone would ever prefer active tank bonus to armor resistance bonus. It won't fit for solo PvP, it won't fit for fleet battles, it won't be used for PvE. Also Hyperion is too tight on fitting compared to other combat BS. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2411
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:01:00 -
[64] - Quote
The Dominix could seriously use that drone MWD bonus we've seen on the Algos, to be honest. Mane 614
|
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
521
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:01:00 -
[65] - Quote
The Mega & Dominix looks fine to me, but the Hyperion looks like garbage. It can't dual rep anymore because you need to drop a web or propulsion, both of which are non-options since it doesn't have a range or tracking bonus.
My recommendation would be to drop a high slot, increase the damage bonus to compensate, and give it back its 5th mid. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Amantus
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:02:00 -
[66] - Quote
in this thread: a bunch of nerds who hate and fear change |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
167
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
Amantus wrote:in this thread: a bunch of nerds who hate and fear change
because all change is good |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
210
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:06:00 -
[68] - Quote
After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. |
|
Michael Turate
The Scope Gallente Federation
54
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:06:00 -
[69] - Quote
Not that keen. Mega should be left alone and taking a low slot off it is ill judged. I quite like the Domi as a sentry boat but you've killed the best bit about the domi, the fact that it was the swiss army knife of battleships, you never knew WHICH Domi you'd be facing and that was probably it's biggest strength. Put it in and box and it will be countered and obsoleted. |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:09:00 -
[70] - Quote
Amantus wrote:in this thread: a bunch of nerds who hate and fear change
No. I use a shield tank dominix to run missions, and this change is a significant nerf. The change nerfs the dps of the ship by 25% and gives a bonus that doesn't make up for it. |
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:10:00 -
[71] - Quote
ummm, dual, rep tank on hybe does not work w/o 2x cap injectors... Unless you reduce the cap consumption of large armor reppers these changes are a significant nerf... What should have been done is the loss of a turret and high slot and the addition of a low slot. The damage bonus should then be changed to a ROF bonus and the graphical orientation of the turrets on the hype should be moved to different spots on the hull so 7 Turrets looks "symmetrical"...
The changes to the mega are reasonable... However I did not really see anything wrong with the ship in the first place. The lack of it's use in fleets has far more to do with the inability of BS to mitigate damage on the large scale (large sig, t1 resistances) and far less to do with it being immobile. The mega has been a staple of small scale close range pvp for years... Again I see no reason to change this.
Dominix? WTF are you thinking kill2. You have simply gutted the ship... The removal of the Hybrid bonus has pigeonholed the ship heavily... Before these changes it could gank with the best of them, or be used as a RR/Nuet Cheese Ball. These changes essentially remove the ability for this ship to gank at the potential it use it. In conclusion, Deleted these stupid changes to the ship and leave it alone, it's been working fine for years.
In conclusion? Step away from the Gallente BS, and move to a Balance project that ACTUALLY needs some attention. Oh you know, like Command Ships and t3s or something? ******* Christ.... |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
212
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:11:00 -
[72] - Quote
I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back.
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
802
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. The Dominix needs a role bonus of +100% increase to Drone Control Range, it seriously lacks control range for most sentries even without the use of Omnidirectional Tacking Units. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
222
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:12:00 -
[74] - Quote
How could you be so cruel to the potatoboat?
Taking away a huge chunk of possible DPS from a ship that was great already. Not impressed.
The Hyp and Mega changes seem fine though. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
247
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:13:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Exciting roles for every ship and every race - One of our main goals during this balance pass is to see that each battleship has a lot to offer, and that each race has access to all of Eve's environments. Formerly, the battleship line had strange overlaps and gaps which left certain races excluded from certain styles of play and other races with more than one option for a certain role. This new distribution should hopefully provide new options and excitement for players of all races.
To continue hating on the Dominix changes, I selected this quote in particular.
You are directly removing the Dominix's current role as a blaster boat. (which it was still second-tier to the Megathron) You are indirectly removing the Dominix's current role as a neut boat. (which it was still second-tier to the Bhaalgorn, and other non-bonused hulls with more hi's, Rokh, Phoon, etc.) You are giving a different ship (Armageddon) the same exact drone damage bonus, the intended role it is supposed to primarily fill, so it's not even particularly special anymore.
I get that you want it to be a "combat" ship with more tank, less speed, and less damage projection, and I'm fine with the mass increase, and the HP is always nice, but you are basically killing this ship for anyone that isn't looking for a mini-slowcat fleet. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
You ruined my day twice. First was Typhoon, now this. I wish I had bought a ticket to Fanfest. Want to hit your jaw. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2447
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
These suggested changes would destroy all Gallente battleships.
Hype - it requires two cap boosters and a tracking comp, if the armor reppers are left in their dire state. Alternatively you could just buff the rep bonus to 10%, so triple repping wouldn't be the only option.
Mega - why would anyone shield tank an armor battleship? Speed is irrelevant when you fly battleships (that are not Machs). Currently Mega can fit a proper armor tank and even a damage mod.
Domi - there is absolutely no need to change the bonuses. Simple EHP and fitting buff is all the ship needs. Please focus instead on fixing the drone interface, mechanics and AI as stated in "Back to the balancing future" devblog.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:16:00 -
[78] - Quote
But, how will I triple repair with a Hyperion now? I don't think it's very feasible on 1 Capacitor booster.... |
fukier
885
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:16:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? I can see some solo pilots having a more difficult time staying cap stable while running enough tackle, but this is a common problem for battleships and it seems weird that the Hyperion would be exempt.
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.
why fit blasters when auto's are better?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
fukier
885
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Pertuabo Enkidgan wrote:But, how will I triple repair with a Hyperion now? I don't think it's very feasible on 1 Capacitor booster....
fingers crossed the rep bonus will include a reduction in cap consumption...
so it would be 7.5% increase in rep amount and reduction in cap consumption per level... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
|
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
496
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:18:00 -
[81] - Quote
DOMINIX
CCP Rise wrote:With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones.
Interesting direction, however, this bonus is designed mainly for sentries. Meaning that the benefit to non-sentry Dominix users has effectively been reduced.
Also...
What do snipe ships generally do? Fight aligned. What can sentry ships not do? Move without losing drones.
Gotta solve that problem before the Domi can really be called a "fleet sentry ship".
Quote:I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
If these mentioned sentry changes are to make sentries stationary until you recall them and then they can move to get back to the ship then; Yes! :)
MEGATHRON Appart from Baltec, who's probably doing backflips over this change, the Mega changes are going to leave the ship less of an armor doctrine fleet option than ever.
Not saying I hate this change, just that now the Hype will probably take the place of the Mega in fleets but with a wasted bonus.
HYPERION Yeah sounds great, people been asking this for years. Loss of a mid is sad but adding a low without hitting the mids would make it lol-powerful.
The only downside I can see from this is that now the hype will replace the Mega but with a wasted bonus for armor fleets and the Mega will now be the shield-gank-boat for Gallente instead of the Hype. The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |
Major Killz
165
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
The Armageddon change sh!ts on the Dominix. To much overlap. The Hyperion is fine and will work. However, you can remove 1 turret hardpoint to keep 5 mid slots.
The Dominix is in bad shape. The Myrmidon has the same issue because of the Prophecy.
- killz |
Big Forehead
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:22:00 -
[83] - Quote
omg pls no.
HYPERION.
It.
Needs.
5.
Mids.
Kil2 ffs you realize that the hyperion is literally only viable now because it can double cap injecter + scram web + MJD right? You literally just nerfed it, not buffed it. IT DOESNT HAVE A TRACKING BONUS, ITS NOT A VINDICATOR.
>mfw this hyperion change. Jesus, just change it back, it's going to be worse now. |
Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession
134
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:23:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. .
Well I don't fly the Hyperion but if was to guess, they active tank it and use cap injectors *smirks* while people like me buffer tank the mega with a sprinkle of damage mods.
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
Roime wrote:These suggested changes would destroy all Gallente battleships.
Hype - it requires two cap boosters and a tracking comp, if the armor reppers are left in their dire state. Alternatively you could just buff the rep bonus to 10%, so triple repping wouldn't be the only option.
Mega - why would anyone shield tank an armor battleship? Speed is irrelevant when you fly battleships (that are not Machs). Currently Mega can fit a proper armor tank and even a damage mod.
Domi - there is absolutely no need to change the bonuses. Simple EHP and fitting buff is all the ship needs. Please focus instead on fixing the drone interface, mechanics and AI as stated in "Back to the balancing future" devblog.
Hype - does need more work on fittings and cap , but the main issue besides that is armour repping is still in an early stage and not good enough yet same as brutix really.
Mega - the talos is still a better option here for shield dps ships again part of the issue is ABC's dps is too good with its projection especially for a T1 ship they should become T2 Bc's and nerf their dps. Mega needs a much bigger buff to its speed and agility for shield tanking it to be worth it over armour tank.
Domi- i disagree here its dps was too good with split bonuses although heavy drones are severely lacking atm and the range issues with sentries needs fixing. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Kami3k
The Lucky Bible Company
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:26:00 -
[86] - Quote
Is this suppose to be a late April fool's joke?
Nearly all of the changes seem like a nerf to the ships.... |
Elendar
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:27:00 -
[87] - Quote
These changes mean that Gal have no standard fleet bs, that any pilot who trains for gal bs will have no shiptype they can bring to either shield or amour bs fleets.
The domi looks nasty but can only be used in drone dedicated fleets.
The hyp is far too weak compared to other armour bs with only one useful fleet bonus to be used (look at the hyp compared to the apoc/abbadon for example, there is no range in which an amarr bs cannot outperform this ship in any sort of gang).
The mega has too few slots now to fit either shield or armor fleets with any sort of comparable tank so will get primaried first every time as a weak link.
Disappointing changes sirs. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
117
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:28:00 -
[88] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:ummm, dual, rep tank on hybe does not work w/o 2x cap injectors... Unless you reduce the cap consumption of large armor reppers these changes are a significant nerf... What should have been done is the loss of a turret and high slot and the addition of a low slot. The damage bonus should then be changed to a ROF bonus and the graphical orientation of the turrets on the hype should be moved to different spots on the hull so 7 Turrets looks "symmetrical"...
The changes to the mega are reasonable... However I did not really see anything wrong with the ship in the first place. The lack of it's use in fleets has far more to do with the inability of BS to mitigate damage on the large scale (large sig, t1 resistances) and far less to do with it being immobile. The mega has been a staple of small scale close range pvp for years... Again I see no reason to change this.
Dominix? WTF are you thinking kill2. You have simply gutted the ship... The removal of the Hybrid bonus has pigeonholed the ship heavily... Before these changes it could gank with the best of them, or be used as a RR/Nuet Cheese Ball. These changes essentially remove the ability for this ship to gank at the potential it use it. In conclusion, Deleted these stupid changes to the ship and leave it alone, it's been working fine for years.
In conclusion? Step away from the Gallente BS, and move to a Balance project that ACTUALLY needs some attention. Oh you know, like Command Ships and t3s or something? ******* Christ....
The problem with a ROF bonus to the Hype would be yet even more cap consumption, not good. The Hype needs some serious fitting space added to it. If CCP wants to make active armor repping viable for it, which means then its sole purpose is for solo/small gang work then the boat needs to be a bit more uber than a normal BS. The ship needs every bit of those mids. It has be have some ability of dealing with a wide range of targets as a solo boat.
The Domi should have been the big brother of the vexor, which no one complains about. Navy Domi could have had all these added drone bonuses. But whatever...
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2450
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? I can see some solo pilots having a more difficult time staying cap stable while running enough tackle, but this is a common problem for battleships and it seems weird that the Hyperion would be exempt.
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.
Mids:
prop (it's a blaster boat) scram web/TC cap booster cap booster
= 5
Now if the armor reppers weren't so horribly inefficient, you wouldn't have to triple rep the Hype, and could do with just one cap booster.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:29:00 -
[90] - Quote
How I would do it:
Mega: 8 / 5 / 6 with 8 turrets and 100/75 drone bay/bandwidth Hyperion: 7 / 5 / 7 with 7 turrets and 150/125 drone bay/bandwidth |
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:29:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? I can see some solo pilots having a more difficult time staying cap stable while running enough tackle, but this is a common problem for battleships and it seems weird that the Hyperion would be exempt.
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.
There is no Feeling of need that the Hyperion needs 5 mids to run a dual rep tank, it's essentially commonly accepted knowledge that it does. Go ahead and try it kill2, then come back and tell me you can run your dual rep tank just fine with a single cap injector.
With the currently proposed slot layout you're going to be dropping a cap injector OR a web/scram. No cap injector means your staying power is moot, no web and web/scram means you're worthless as a blaster ship. As for the retort about "why should the hype be any different than other bs when it comes to solo capability". Well the reason it should be different is because that's all it's ******* good at, with these proposed changes it went from having a niche, to just being bad.... Like come on dude, you were a pro pvper, I think you should know that.
As stated before, the proper changes to hype would have been the removal of a highslot and turret, the change of damage to ROF (this one may not be needed), and the addition of a low slot.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
714
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:30:00 -
[92] - Quote
Hyperion losing a mid? But doesn't it require 15 heavy cap boosters to keep 1 rep going? BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
chuckfinleyrocks
I'll Be Your Huckleberry
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:31:00 -
[93] - Quote
Just get it over with and nerf all the ships, so you get what you really want, ships being blown up more so less money spent on GTCs. Or maybe you want every to just mine, since those are the only ships that dont get crapped on. STAR CITIZEN, SAVE SPACE GAMING!!! |
Capqu
Love Squad
92
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:32:00 -
[94] - Quote
i prefer the 5 mid mega but i'd prefer a 8 turret mega even more
the hyperion could lose a turret and a high to keep 5 mids and gain a low, allowing it to keep the scram web double injector prop setup while also buffing its tank or dps in the form of an extra magstab / enam. the lost turret can be made up for in drone bandwith going to 125
as for the domi, that second drone bonus is too niche for a tech 1 ship i think. if it was me i'd set it's bandwith to 175 and having a +1 drone per level bonus. 10 mediums/light or 7 heavies might b cool http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
323
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:32:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? I can see some solo pilots having a more difficult time staying cap stable while running enough tackle, but this is a common problem for battleships and it seems weird that the Hyperion would be exempt.
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.
Forget all the number crunching for a minute.
What should the Hyperion be used for? Not a diplo.-á |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:33:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.
Except that nobody with any sense will fit guns that are both hard to fit and unbonused. If it gets any guns it'll get popguns, or ACs as they're known.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Major Killz
166
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:35:00 -
[97] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? I can see some solo pilots having a more difficult time staying cap stable while running enough tackle, but this is a common problem for battleships and it seems weird that the Hyperion would be exempt.
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones. Forget all the number crunching for a minute. What should the Hyperion be used for?
Good question. What should the Maelstrom be used for? From what I remember the Tempest was suppose to be the Artillery platform. Only the Abaddon and Rokh seem to make sense as a mainline ship.
- killz |
mkint
974
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:38:00 -
[98] - Quote
thank god I don't have any use for t1 bs any more. down from 3 barely better than mediocre choices to 3 bad choices. whelp, gallente is dead. time to find something else to do. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1222
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:39:00 -
[99] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote: And to be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring out why I would fly a domi over the neuting beast that will be the Geddon. I guess that's fine, because the same question has been answered wrt Myrm versus Prophecy. (Nobody flies Myrms, everybody flies Prophecy)
|
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:40:00 -
[100] - Quote
Ask yourself "Can this hyperion take on an abbadon, mael, or Rokh fleet?"
I think the answer is no. Rep bonus is cool and all, but I feel that an 7-8 low new bonus mega could do it. This hyperion can't. I think the Mega should be the Combat while the hyperion should be the attack. No one in their right mind is going to take out a hype fleet utilizing the rep bonus to a SOV fight. Rep bonus in fleets won't let you hold the field where Logi/triage is king. At least as an attack BS there would be more incentive to play around with it.
I appreciate what you are doing, trying new things is great. I just don't see it working the that you want it to. |
|
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:41:00 -
[101] - Quote
Not at all pleased with the changes to my favorite races battleships, especially the Megathron, I don't want to sound overly pessimistic but large fleets and Gallente seem never to intersect unless I spend way too much money on a ship, and after these changes it isn't easier. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1222
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:43:00 -
[102] - Quote
Aliventi wrote: No one in their right mind is going to take out a hype fleet utilizing the rep bonus to a SOV fight. No active rep ship is going to be taken to a SOV fight. Hyperion is supposed to be a solo ship that's gets nueted to death by the (OP) Amarr neuting BS. |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
219
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:45:00 -
[103] - Quote
Quote:What should the Hyperion be used for?
The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle.
Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.
We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.
As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.
|
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2450
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:46:00 -
[104] - Quote
With 4 slots it can't be used even solo.
Not like solo Hype would currently be viable anyway.
I was really hoping for the resurrection of BS class. For them to become better options than ABCs, but I'll just fly the Proteus. It's just like Mega, but does everything better.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2452
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:47:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.
Current meta - 7.5% per level is too weak for pvp and pve.
Solution - buff it to 10%.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:48:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:What should the Hyperion be used for? The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle. Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful. We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank. As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta. Active rep bonuses should be cap reduction as well as rep amount. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Aurora Fatalis
Black Dawn Rising
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:48:00 -
[107] - Quote
It seems like the Hyperion is having trouble finding its role. May I suggest it have a unique bonus among Battleships with the ability to fit a Warfare Link? Ever since the "I was there" trailer, I've thought it really looks the role of Command BS.
This would make it shine as a flagship for a small BS gang with limited RR, and help distinguish the Gallentean lineup from the Amarrian. |
Capqu
Love Squad
92
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:48:00 -
[108] - Quote
have you ever considered a dual range bonus plus a damage bonus? since blasters don't get any real benefit from a single range bonus unlike other weapons platforms (due to the nature of split falloff/optimal) i'd propse something like this for a fleet hyperion
7.5% large blaster optimal and falloff per level 5% large hybrid damage
might make it a viable fleet choice
obviously a huge change but there you go, the hype is garbage atm http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
267
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:49:00 -
[109] - Quote
People are so scared of changes !
You can get back what the hyperion lost in the midslot with the low slot ; basically, only triple rep setup will really be hurt, but double rep setup will be almost as powerful and require a lot less cap.
And if utility was the problem, the Megathron will take this place.
Yet, the Hyperion will now replace the Megathron for fleet duties with lots of benefits (8 guns is good, and tier3 hp are good).
Megathron and Hyperion have their roles shaked up a bit, but all roles they had still exists, and I think they earn some capabilities in the end.
And for the Dominix, it's basically an integrated drone omnidirectional tracking link. Per se, it may be a bit weak in fact, as ship bonuses tend to be better than module bonuses most of the time, but that's still usefull for drones (and heavy drones have a use for this too), and that allow for sentry sniping a lot more easilly (ship bonuses are not stacking penalized).
Basically, it's a lot of changes, but I think they are mostly good. Just adapt. |
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:52:00 -
[110] - Quote
Upon reading the Amarr changes, how am I supposed to look at both line-ups and not instantly go "Amarr it is"?
They seem more competent at everything, and this kinda seem like an extinction level event for all Gallente battleships in larger fleets. |
|
luredivino
Juice Indicate
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:52:00 -
[111] - Quote
It seems like these are being balanced around use in nullsec and ignoring EVERYONE else. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:56:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:What should the Hyperion be used for? The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle. Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful. We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank. As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.
It would be pretty hard to over correct for how bad it is now. Just look at the fittings. Electrons with the tank its supposed to use? Really why? Guns that use cap, have no range, on a slow boat, with a tank that uses way too much cap etc etc. ASB made active shield tanking good again because its a capless solution and uses very few mods to get the job done. Do the same for active armor as many have been saying for a LONG time. AAR's should be capless. Period. If simply not willing to do that then lower the cap amount to be able to run the tank easily with Neutrons and a single cap booster. Then maybe it won't still completely suck. Also, perhaps 10% armor rep might be a better way to go. As it is, you have to run it with legion links to have much chance at all and drugs. |
Fredric Wolf
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:56:00 -
[113] - Quote
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. |
BarryBonez
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:57:00 -
[114] - Quote
I like the idea of being able to drag a Megathron along on a shield fleet, even though it will stick out like a sore thumb and probably be much less efficient than say, a Maelstrom.
The Dominix as a dedicated sentry boat makes me happy... but then I wonder about which applications it could see outside of PvE... If you take it on fleets and try to fight someone else, you have to sit still once you deploy them, which puts you at a huge disadvantage. So then you wonder when sitting still isnt a big deal... camping? Well your sig res is so ****** that you can't lock anything quick enough to fire a shot, so maybe you end up just assigning them to a frig or something. That may be effective, but doesn't sound very fun. I really don't know where I would use this ship... That being said, the split damage bonus sucked before and I'm glad that is gone.
The Hyperion always seemed really cool to me, but it was LOL expensive and so was never even on my radar as a possible ship for me to be flying. Active tanking with 8 hi slots sounds fun as hell, but 300mil for a hull does not. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:57:00 -
[115] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.
? Really dude... Step away from the keyboard and stop taking these attacks at your bad proposed changes personally. Claiming that the removal of a mid and the addition of a low further reinforces the Hyps bonuses is utter BS. The Ship is a Blaster ship, meaning that tackle + prop is pretty much mandatory unless you're flying in a fleet in which the REP bonus is completely worthless anyway and people will just take far more viable armor ships.
It's becoming very clear that you have no idea what you are talking about on this particular matter kill2.
|
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:58:00 -
[116] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? I can see some solo pilots having a more difficult time staying cap stable while running enough tackle, but this is a common problem for battleships and it seems weird that the Hyperion would be exempt.
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.
Are you 'king ********? How did you get this job? If you can't web something, you can't even kill a bc, if you can't fit two cap boosters, you can't fit two reps, if you can't fit two reps you just die all the time. YOU NEED 5 MIDS! Seriously mate, what the hell do you think this ship is for? It's only use is 1-3 man roaming and weird shield setups. You speak about this ship like it's for gangs "not to tackle but dish out and tank damage" OR you could take a mega, get more dps, better tracking and bring two augorors for more tank. Honestly mate.
Basically tier 3's have ruined active tanking and given your idea of balancing them is making them go a poofteenth slower, I think you should take a long look at what you're doing with ships like the hype.
If you don't want active tanking to be viable, just remove the stupid bonuses and give them something useful, but don't pseudo nerf ships and then try to defend your blatant stupidity and lack of any forethought.
Biomass, that's my only advice. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:59:00 -
[117] - Quote
Taking away a low on the hyperion makes it a worse brawler, not better.
Right now it can fit cap booster, scram, web, prop, and a 2nd cap booster, which is needed to active tank it.
Dropping a mid forces it to either go propless, in which case it is massively outclassed by the maelstrom, or drop a cap booster, in which case it is hilariously vulnerable to neuts. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2454
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 16:59:00 -
[118] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.
Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Kami3k
The Lucky Bible Company
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:00:00 -
[119] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:
? Really dude... Step away from the keyboard and stop taking these attacks at your bad proposed changes personally. Claiming that the removal of a mid and the addition of a low further reinforces the Hyps bonuses is utter BS. The Ship is a Blaster ship, meaning that tackle + prop is pretty much mandatory unless you're flying in a fleet in which the REP bonus is completely worthless anyway and people will just take far more viable armor ships.
It's becoming very clear that you have no idea what you are talking about on this particular matter kill2.
And since armor repping still uses a large amount of cap, it nearly needs two boosters.
One booster will not be enough if it goes up against a neut ship. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:00:00 -
[120] - Quote
Roime wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange? how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:00:00 -
[121] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Taking away a low on the hyperion makes it a worse brawler, not better.
Right now it can fit cap booster, scram, web, prop, and a 2nd cap booster, which is needed to active tank it.
Dropping a mid forces it to either go propless, in which case it is massively outclassed by the maelstrom, or drop a cap booster, in which case it is hilariously vulnerable to neuts.
Going to assume you meant mid :P
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
212
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:01:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:What should the Hyperion be used for? The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle. Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful. We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank. As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.
Here is a solution for you: change active armor tanking to not rely on cap. You seem to have gone out of the way to make the AAR and ASB not the same by requiring cap usage still for the AAR. How about making cap requirement a shield boosting thing and change active armor tanking to something else? Gallente active armor tanking relies too heavily on cap. Guns need cap. Prop mod needs cap. Tank needs cap. As compared to shield, only the prop mod and unloaded ASB's need cap. It is unbalanced. Fix it.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
267
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:01:00 -
[123] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Ask yourself "Can this hyperion take on an abbadon, mael, or Rokh fleet?"
I think the answer is no. Rep bonus is cool and all, but I feel that an 7-8 low new bonus mega could do it. This hyperion can't. I think the Mega should be the Combat while the hyperion should be the attack. No one in their right mind is going to take out a hype fleet utilizing the rep bonus to a SOV fight. Rep bonus in fleets won't let you hold the field where Logi/triage is king. At least as an attack BS there would be more incentive to play around with it.
I appreciate what you are doing, trying new things is great. I just don't see it working the that you want it to. Oh yeah, just look at how gallente ships are at being amarr ships !!
Come on ! These are *gallente* ships ! Not *amarr* ships ! Amarr doctrine is sit, stand and shoot. No wonder why they are the best at sitting in front of an outpost, standing and shooting. You cannot make gallente better than them for this. |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
325
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:02:00 -
[124] - Quote
So what I'm hearing is that you're trying to base the Hyperion on the hope that active armor tanking will be fixed enough to make a comeback.
Doesn't it seem like you're putting the cart before the horse?
Tell me I'm off base here.... Not a diplo.-á |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1223
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:02:00 -
[125] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Megathron and Hyperion have their roles shaked up a bit, but all roles they had still exists, and I think they earn some capabilities in the end.
And for the Dominix, it's basically an integrated drone omnidirectional tracking link. Per se, it may be a bit weak in fact, as ship bonuses tend to be better than module bonuses most of the time, but that's still usefull for drones (and heavy drones have a use for this too), and that allow for sentry sniping a lot more easilly (ship bonuses are not stacking penalized).
Basically, it's a lot of changes, but I think they are mostly good. Just adapt.
Mega will be used over the Hyperion in every single case with the exception of gimmick solo repper fit. Hyperion is the one ship that absolutely needs the remote armor repping received to make it work in groups of more than two. Maybe 4%/level to keep it on par with the resistance bonus from other similar ships (along with it's self-repping bonus).
It still won't make the bonus as good as the resistance bonus (you get increased EHP with the resistance bonus), but doing this will help the ships survive better in larger groups - increasing its engagement envelope.
Really CCP, if you want to make active armor repping good, then apply the bonus two ways: o 7.5% / level self repping, 4%/level remote repping received.
There will be exceptions like the incursus, but as the hull size increases, the need for remote reps increases as well. |
Nometh Xergent
Proxima Magnus
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:04:00 -
[126] - Quote
Im pretty new player tho i have played a couple of months. So i dont have so much to say really, but right now im Flying the Megathron and it works pretty fun for missions. (4) But that low-slot will hurt, really much actually. I know i dont have the best tanker-skills even tho i think the Mega needs it low-slot.
And for the Domi, i kind of like the new Dominix, the boost in EHP and the drone bonus. But somehow it stil weird that a Battleship is only focused on drones when it got so many high slots. (For bonuses i mean)
- Again, this is my opinion. But im not a veteran at all.
Feel free to "re-balance" the ships CCP. But please dont **** it up because BS:s are a very important tool in the game. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:05:00 -
[127] - Quote
My suggestion for the hyp:
Drop a gun hardpoint, give it the 10% damage bonus (gains .5 gun worth of dps).
Tweak its fitting a bit (the active armor rig changes hurt it a bunch in the fitting dept, but the loss of a gun will make up for that I suppose).
Done. (Maybe give it another flight of light drones, but i dont see a pressing need)
|
BarryBonez
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:05:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:What should the Hyperion be used for? We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.
I'm glad that you still recognize the pilots that try to go out solo for some fun. That's what I enjoy doing most, but thanks to expensive ships, it's pretty rough right now. I can handle some ratting to get my funds up, but as it stands, a decent battlecruiser out in 0.0 runs me around 80mil fitted (t1 & t2) or 120+ for the t3. To pay this much just to roam for an hour or two through empty systems only to end up being blobbed truly tests one's patience. Sure after insurance it's maybe only a 40 mil loss, but that may take upwards of an hour to accumulate of shooting boring NPCs. I know this post may seem a little whiny, but I'm just trying to be honest here and express how trying to be a solo pilot simply is not very enjoyable at this point. Affordable battleships would definitely help to tip the scales since a well-fitted BS can handle small gangs on it's own. However, they are slow and solo roams can be loooong. If ships did not cost twice as much as they did when I started playing around 2.5 years ago, the pain of fitting one out and going out alone would be lessened. |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:05:00 -
[129] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange? how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?
Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
120
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:06:00 -
[130] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:People are so scared of changes !
You can get back what the hyperion lost in the midslot with the low slot ; basically, only triple rep setup will really be hurt, but double rep setup will be almost as powerful and require a lot less cap.
And if utility was the problem, the Megathron will take this place.
Yet, the Hyperion will now replace the Megathron for fleet duties with lots of benefits (8 guns is good, and tier3 hp are good).
Megathron and Hyperion have their roles shaked up a bit, but all roles they had still exists, and I think they earn some capabilities in the end.
And for the Dominix, it's basically an integrated drone omnidirectional tracking link. Per se, it may be a bit weak in fact, as ship bonuses tend to be better than module bonuses most of the time, but that's still usefull for drones (and heavy drones have a use for this too), and that allow for sentry sniping a lot more easilly (ship bonuses are not stacking penalized).
Basically, it's a lot of changes, but I think they are mostly good. Just adapt.
You need two heavy cap boosters for a dual rep set up also. |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:06:00 -
[131] - Quote
Akturous wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange? how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus? Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns. It still had 6 turret hard points ergo only a 25% drop in damage Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7409
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:07:00 -
[132] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:loss of the launcher slot for those of us who wanted to go pure DPS
Yes the Megathron is surely at a loss not being able to fit an unbonused HML to gain a whole 20 DPS ~my isk/hr~ mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Newbs Fighting Back
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:08:00 -
[133] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:What should the Hyperion be used for? The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle. Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful. We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank. As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.
Don't give up on active armor reps! But on the second to last paragraph about finding a way to allow the solo pilot better access to tackle--buff webbing drones! Or give ships like the Hyp a buff that applies to them! This is a joke, though I'd like to see the utility drones be more useful...but I don't see why you just don't remove the cap use from AARs and make them more like ASBs, that way the hyp would not be so cap lame. Or remove a high add it to mid. |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
225
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:12:00 -
[134] - Quote
We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback |
|
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
529
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:12:00 -
[135] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors?
Because you *need* 1) point 2) web 3) prop mod 4+5) two injectors
...for your Hyperion not to be even more awful than it already is.
And I'm pretty sure anyone that PVPs and can count on five fingers could have figured this out for you.
|
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
120
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:13:00 -
[136] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Akturous wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange? how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus? Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns. It still had 6 turret hard points ergo only a 25% drop in damage
Your forgetting heat no? Can't overheat drones. |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:13:00 -
[137] - Quote
Roime wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?
The dominix lost 25 percent of its turret dps, which is still a significant nerf. Without the damage bonus everyone is just going to use autocannons. The dominix needs an extra drone and +25 bandwidth, which will never happen probably.
As far as the megathron is concerned, it is going to make it much harder for new players to run missions. losing a low is going to equire either taking off a hardener or losing a magstab. It will result in an overall loss of dps which means frustrated player.
After these changes, the gallente will lack a strong pve platform. The caldari have the raven or the golem. The minmatar have the machariel or the vargur. The amarr have the apoc navy issue or the paladin. The gallente will be outdpsed by all of them. The kronos is terrible, the megathron is losing damage, the dominix is losing 25 percent of its damage and will be outdpsed by other races battlecruisers. Why fly gallente? What will make people want to fly Gallente more after these changes? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:14:00 -
[138] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback No more updates today or no more for the hyp today? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:14:00 -
[139] - Quote
Akturous wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange? how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus? Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns.
You still have the guns, they just don't have a bonus anymore.
|
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
325
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:14:00 -
[140] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback
Thank you Not a diplo.-á |
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3269
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:14:00 -
[141] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-1) Fittings: 15750 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
I highly dislike losing the ability to dual cap boost, fit a SeBo, fit an ECCM, fit a Disruptor+Scram+Web, fit dual web, and many other things. Yes, the lack of a low slot hurts, but damn man.
Quote: Megathron:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
You didn't need to go quite this far in changing the Mega to be an attack battleship. Lower the sig a bit, increase the speed a bit, increase the CPU a bit to help out some long standing problems.
Quote: Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
What... no. Just, no.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
572
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:15:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback
But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1223
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:15:00 -
[143] - Quote
BarryBonez wrote: So then you wonder when sitting still isnt a big deal... camping? Well your sig res is so ****** that you can't lock anything quick enough to fire a shot, so maybe you end up just assigning them to a frig or something. Assign drones to your tackle. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1223
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:17:00 -
[144] - Quote
Grendell wrote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years. I have to say that the Gallente (faction) cruiser and below lineup is very strong after the current rebalance. Myrm engagement envelope is swallowed up by the Prophecy (but the only regular BC I see in low sec now is the Prophecy), but otherwise it has been good so far.
|
Kobea Thris
Inquisition FiS Division Surely You're Joking
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:17:00 -
[145] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:What should the Hyperion be used for? The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle. Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.
I think the problem with this is that you have a razor thin margin for where this is actually useful. The more the gang size on both sides increases, the worse the active rep bonus becomes. If the Hyperion is meant to be a fleet ship, then the rep bonus isn't very useful. If it is meant to be a solo/small gang ship, then it needs the midslots to help round out the gang. |
Johnny Debt
Angelus Exitium
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:18:00 -
[146] - Quote
Please leave the Dominix's bonuses what they are and don't change them. I believe the ship would be well balanced with just the increases to shield/armor/structure HP and fitting buffs. |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
261
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:19:00 -
[147] - Quote
OMFG! that dominix! *-* Talk about drone firepower! give cant remove 1 high and add 1 more low tho? |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2454
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:21:00 -
[148] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?
Because nobody will fit non-bonused large hybrids on it.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:21:00 -
[149] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
What... no. Just, no. -Liang It would be quite viable if it gets a role bonus to drone control range. If it doesn't then it will be total crap. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
226
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:22:00 -
[150] - Quote
Quote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years.
I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships. The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded.
It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it. |
|
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:23:00 -
[151] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:CCP Rise wrote: And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? Because you *need* 1) point 2) web 3) prop mod 4+5) two injectors ...for your Hyperion not to be even more awful than it already is. And I'm pretty sure anyone that PVPs and can count on five fingers could have figured this out for you.
Hell, i would almost rather they move a low slot to a mid slot, so I can fit that + eccm. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:23:00 -
[152] - Quote
Roime wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?
Because nobody will fit non-bonused large hybrids on it. that is there choice, the fittings are still setup for hybrids, without the bonus to hybrid damage it gives it the options for anything in the high slots and not having half the ships bonuses unused by using neuts, RR, or a different turret. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
530
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:23:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years. I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded. It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it.
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:24:00 -
[154] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback
What is there to talk over? Any push back coming from you and the balance team about the nearly 100% unanimous feedback given by the community about the proposed hype changes are rooted solely in the ego driven hierarchy of opinion that has infected development teams since the beginning of gaming. It's a case of "we know better than you because we're the devs" While this mindset may often be correct in younger games, the team that is currently "rebalancing" eve is far younger and has far less play experience than the veteran players that have stuck with this game in many cases for 9-10 years.
The simple fact is that the proposed changes to the hype fore-+go any resemblance of logic.
Also... Your change from 5% to 4% on the resistance bonus needs to be carried over to EVERY hull in eve, not simply Battleships.
|
fukier
886
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:24:00 -
[155] - Quote
this is what i would do to the hype:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount and reduction in armor repair cap usage per level
Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 7 turrets (-1) , 0 launchers(-1) Fittings: 17000 PWG (+1250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
this would let the hype still get full damage plus give it a utility high slot and make it much easier to fix large blasters and give it the ability to use internal reps and be more cap stable.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
228
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:27:00 -
[156] - Quote
Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.
Care to shed any light? |
|
Fredric Wolf
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:27:00 -
[157] - Quote
Roime wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar. Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?
I have seen the insane fits that allowed the Domi to put out 1500+ DPS yes. Now it will be down around 1000~1100 DPS which is a good spot for it IMO. |
fukier
888
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:27:00 -
[158] - Quote
Roime wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?
Because nobody will fit non-bonused large hybrids on it.
who said you had to use hybrids?
you can use auto cannons or nuets... or RR... the ship has lots of fitting possibilities... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:28:00 -
[159] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years. I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded. It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it.
Why would you fly a rep bonused BS when you have support? If you have support, just use a megathron and press whatever button you have bound to "broadcast for armor" |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:28:00 -
[160] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years. I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded. It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it.
The hyperion changes are fine. It follows the gallente pvp doctrine of in the fact and high damage. The problem people are having is that active armor repair takes too much cap and requires 2 cap boosters to keep from getting rofld by cap drain.
If you want the dominix changes to not be so severe, it needs extra grid and a bonus to drone control range. |
|
Xanral
Ajo Heavy Industries Angry Bunnies
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:29:00 -
[161] - Quote
As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.
I've always felt the 3 gallente BSes were a bit too similar so changing up the mega and domi could bring some interesting options to the table.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2454
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:29:00 -
[162] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?
Because nobody will fit non-bonused large hybrids on it. that is there choice, the fittings are still setup for hybrids, without the bonus to hybrid damage it gives it the options for anything in the high slots and not having half the ships bonuses unused by using neuts, RR, or a different turret.
Currently is has those options, and option to do good damage even with railguns.
Afterwards it has those option, but no option to do good damage with any guns.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
345
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:31:00 -
[163] - Quote
I have a proposal for the Hyperion:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage (+5%) +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 6H (-2), 5M, 8L(+2); 6 turrets (-2), 0 launchers(-1) Fittings: 13250 PWG (-2500), 550 (-50) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 125 (+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
This changes the hyperion from 10 effective turrets to 10.5 (following what was done on the harbinger also taking some from the fittings). It leaves the slightly weaker armor rep bonus in place, but it's only useful in specific situations. Damage never seemed to me to be an issue with this ship, just keeping it alive. DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
Kobea Thris
Inquisition FiS Division Surely You're Joking
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:31:00 -
[164] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback
Have you considered making the Megathron the Combat battleship, and the Hyperion the Attack battleship? I know that sounds weird, but think about it. Right now, theoretically, you want to put plates and trimarks on a Megathron, and Reps and an Nano pumps/accelerators on a Hyperion. The Megathron is supposed to be the faster more maneuverable ship, but is more apt to use the slower, bulkier tank. If you keep their slot layout as they are now, but give the Megathron the added HP it needs, while dropping some from the Hyper but increasing it's speed and agility, you might be in a good place. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1223
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:36:00 -
[165] - Quote
Xanral wrote:As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.
Cap hungry active armor reps at BS level take too many slots to be effective. Frees up mid slots for cap boosters, adds valuable midslot to lows. +1
|
Throktar
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:41:00 -
[166] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback
I am glad to hear you are taking player feedback in mind here. No one gets everything right on the first try every time. Just stay positive and motivated to improving Eve for all.
Now my opinions : I know you are working on the Hyp so I will not address it currently.
The Megathron: Why? This was the boat that need no tweaking imo other than its speed. It could sport a great tank while putting out great dps. Its drawback was its gun range. Please reconsider giving it that low slot back in exchange for the utility high slot. Or just change it back to the way it was. I understand it losing the drone bandwidth, but that low slot loss is almost unacceptable. I do not want to shield tank my Mega...(2 other races to do that with) I want armor, as it was designed for.
The Dominix : I understand what you are going for here and I think it would be a great boat to fly...if sentry drones would follow your ship. This Domi is supposed to just sit there and try to snipe at range? Any hull with guns with be far superior because they can keep moving. Why can't you make sentry drones follow the ship but at say 120m a second. This way you can slow boat it while aligned, yet you will lose your drones if you use any type of prop mod. Oh and the drones only orbit you they can't fly out, and if you are moer than 2500, from them they go stationary. |
Major Killz
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:41:00 -
[167] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light?
The Hyperion like a Megathron can work with 1 capacitor booster. The main issue as to why players prefer 2 capacitor boosters is because there is less module management invovled.
The strange thing is before the introduction of auxiliary shield booster. The Maelstrom and more so the Rokh had to deal with having 1 capacitor booster. The Hyperions advantage over those ships was more sustained defense and stasis webifier.
As far as I am aware. Based on my own principles and how I place certain ships in there roles.
The tier 3 battlecruisers were damage mitigation platforms. Able to soak copious amount of damage and disable a target so other pilots within the Hyperion, Rokh, Maelstrom and abaddons fleet can provide damage.
I have used (with other characters) the Maelstrom (against 6 battleships) for that purpose and not even fit a warp scrambler while a friend in a Abaddon provided damage at 40,000m.
- killz |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
309
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:42:00 -
[168] - Quote
Here's to the dominix; what was once an astounding ship is now mostly shite.
Seriously, if you want to turn the domi into a pure drone boat, the first step is to give it a way to do damage befitting a battleship with drones. The 800ish DPS tops that you're going to get out of it with gardes is terrible, and if you're not going to use it as a gun/drone hybrid then you'll be better off with the geddon.
Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed. |
GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:42:00 -
[169] - Quote
Firstly i am probably overly pleased with the dominix change as it only serves to enhance it in the way i have used it for the past 3 years without any sacrifice at all.
Secondly I do not like the megathron or hyperion changes, heres why:
As neither the megathron or the hyperion are severely utilized for anything i suggest rather than trading a mid slot for a low slot that they be given an additional slot as a straight buff. Since armor ships have to share damage mods with tank in the low slots having either of these below 7 lot slots for an armor tank puts either at a major disadvantage to the role.
The proposed change inverts the mid / low slot layout on the hyperion and megathron and really does neither any justice and just trades out tankability of each ship to be opposite of what it is now.
Hyperion - Self Rep bonus for blob warfare is Useless, lack of tracking bonus gimps it this regard. Targeting range is severely short making them pidgeon holed to blasters or sacrificing fitting for sensor boosters.
Megathron - Bonuses for ROF and tracking are good for blob warfare. Rail fit it is meh and blaster fit it is still too slow / too short range for 0.0 blob damage application. Has utility High for neut, The proposed changes will give it the same Mid / Low as a the tempest which is historically used as a shield brawler / ganker with the armor fit being extremely gimped.
Personally I've always wanted to see a Gallente battleship with a falloff bonus. I Was hopeful it would happen with this, I am sad that it isn't in the current proposal and hopeful that it is or could be under consideration.
Back to rambling about low slots and tanking - Like it or not Gallente has always been competing with Amarr for armor tanks, and they have ALWAYS been loosing(rightly so, but still needs to be able to compete, not just be completely outclassed).
Final Thoughts What i want to see - A Gallente hybrid boat that can armor fit and brawl in large scale 0.0 warfare. From what I've rambled on above you can see my argument as to how the proposed changes do not make this possible. |
Sointu Luonnotar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:43:00 -
[170] - Quote
So which one of you guys at CCP went "let's make missioning with drones a pain and "improve" NPC AI" and then said " force more ships to rely on drones" and then thought "Yeah that sounds good"?
I mean I know, f*** missioners and all that but still, didn't none of you stop think about it for a minute? Posting in a gallente thread because muh drones. |
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:46:00 -
[171] - Quote
Xanral wrote:As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.
I've always felt the 3 gallente BSes were a bit too similar so changing up the mega and domi could bring some interesting options to the table.
While I originally proposed a ROF bonus instead of a dmage bonus, I think that a 7 gun rof bonus WITH the addition of a low slot for a mag stab would be a little bit too strong of a buff. After doing a bit of number crunching 7/5/7 with a dmg bonus and retaining a 100m3 drone bay would be an extremely ideal change to the Hyperion.
The loss of a turret would free up some grid allowing for a 7 Ion setup with 2 heavy cap injectors, 6 Slot dual rep tank, and a single mag stab. Or a 5 slot dual rep tank (with either 1 eanm, and an explosive hardener, or 2x eanm with an explosive hole) and 2 mag stabs...
IF the Hyperion is to be changed to a 7 gun ship as It should, it's MANDATORY that the graphical placement of the guns be changed to positions that allow for some form of symmetry. While this may not be extremely important to those of us who spend our time crunching numbers and pewing with maximum efficiency, there is a large "OCDish" portion of the community that takes pride in the visual representation of their ships.
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
213
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:47:00 -
[172] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Xanral wrote:As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.
Cap hungry active armor reps at BS level take too many slots to be effective. Frees up mid slots for cap boosters, adds valuable midslot to lows. +1
Nope! 4/7/8 with a 25% damage bonus per level (9 effective turrets instead of 10) is the way to go. You really need one cap booster per armor repper. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:51:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. That's because Hyper fits active tank, and Throne fits passive. That was an easy question, right?
CCP Rise wrote:As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones. Everyone is afraid to say that, but I will. Sentry drones are overpowered. 150 km with 1 omnilink, seriously? If you absolutely need to remove hybrid bonus, go for drone MWD or at least control range bonus. |
Johan March
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:52:00 -
[174] - Quote
IActive armor tanking needs serious work. Check your logs since the last balance. There's a ton more Prophecies being flown than Myrmidons. Bonuses should be useful if one is flying solo, small gang, and large fleet. Resistances do this, repair bonuses do not. Armor repair amount just doesn't accomplish this at all.
I'm still digesting the rest. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3271
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:52:00 -
[175] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years. I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded.
There's a lot of things that you can confirm with game analytics, but looking at the top line numbers just isn't the way to do it. Try breaking this top line number down by sec status or by region. Did this originate from offline POS bashing or from attacking station camping archons? Are those situations actually representative of how the game is played in Eve Online and the target use case you have for Hyperions?
On the face of it, I'm having a ton of trouble beliving this from a general PVP perspective.
Quote: It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it.
Active tanking and blasters are both most effective in small gang combat. The kind of combat where you can't rely on having a hundred guys to score your tackle for you.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
531
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:54:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light?
Simple, you're reading incidental usage (i.e. the good old station gank, the novelty shieldhype gankfit, the odd megathron in a pickup fleet) and considering that to mean they are used seriously.
But they're not, in any more organised fleet megas and particularly hyperion are always on the bottom of the pick-list of allowed ships because they do not offer anything Amarr cannot do better.
I have been in a rather large number of lowsec BS battles by now, and not once, ever, have I seen a Gallente fleet doctrine, and that is because there simple is none.
Long range? Apocs, Navpocs do it much better than gallente. Brawl up close? Blasters are great for that, but the mega lacks the staying power and the hyperion is marred by it's utterly useless repair bonus making both of them inferior to navpocs and baddons.
The primary reason people fly gallente? That just happens to be the race they started as before they knew better. they like blasters and they like the way the ships look and they just sort of make due with the fact they are awful.
So yeah, you will find Gallente BS, and yeah they are definitely used, but they are pretty widely considered useless for basing a doctrine around in organized pvp. |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
572
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:00:00 -
[177] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years. I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded. It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it.
Last 5 days is fairly insignificant when you look at the overall stats over the years: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
This is a current snap shot of pvp use, when you go back for the stats every month for the last year, it all has one thing in common. Gallente is dead last.
Speaking specifically for the Megathron, it's gone through a lot of nerfs from general eve balancing. One of those changes being the speed nerf years ago. Given the mass of the Megathron and the reduced speed and agility potential it simply can't be that once loved in your face blaster boat. Unless you get that perfect warp in on top of your enemy fleet and they somehow forget their ships are not stationary. They will be out of your range and kiting you safely. Mix that speed nerf with web's being reduced from 90% to 60% and it only made a bad situation worse. So when getting into range was already a problem, keeping them in range became another problem. That web speed reduction also affected the ability to put out that desired high dps.
Many of these random changes weren't meant to directly affect the Megathron, but they all had negative impacts on the ability of the ship. Individually all those little changes really compounded into a a huge problem.
|
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
251
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:02:00 -
[178] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:OMFG! that dominix! *-* Talk about drone firepower! give cant remove 1 high and add 1 more low tho?
The Drone DPS stays exactly the same. It is a net DPS nerf and everyone will switch to Autocannons... or just use the Armageddon, as I will. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Major Killz
171
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:02:00 -
[179] - Quote
There are in fact Dominix fleet doctrines STILL and they are STILL VERY effective. Not so much in null where engagements are more nimble (ping spots, warp too, tactical bubbles). While in low security space battleship engagements are alot more static and much more focused on logistics, EHP, Neutraliation, damage and reisistence. Tactial movement is limited and in that enviroment these blaster Dominix fleets with sentries work well and are near Abaddons. OFC they have thier weaknesses.
- killz |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
570
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:03:00 -
[180] - Quote
Good changes. |
|
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:06:00 -
[181] - Quote
Please do not take away the launcher slots!!! This gives much needed flexibility and interesting ship fits! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3272
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:06:00 -
[182] - Quote
Grendell wrote:Last 5 days is fairly insignificant when you look at the overall stats over the years: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20This is a current snap shot of pvp use, when you go back for the stats every month for the last year, it all has one thing in common. Gallente is dead last.
This is another one of those top line metrics that can't be trusted for overall game tuning. It has the same problems as above, except instead of looking at raw damage you're looking at kills (an improvement, at least). We still haven't broken it out by location, timezone, security status, weapon type, or fleet size. Another problem with this is particular site is that it's exceptionally deceptive due to the multiplicative effect of how it counts fleet kills.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Imawuss
Origin. Black Legion.
48
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:06:00 -
[183] - Quote
WOW... way to **** the Megathron. Also the Hyperion is lacking in PG and cap recharge adding a low slot helps with the tank but it is still an inferior ship. So instead of fixing two BS's that are good you guys give us another mediocre Hyperion and completely nullify the Megathron for anything but a shield tank.
The Dominx.. well nice changes. This ship is now a pure pve boat, and just a mini slowcat I'm cool with that i guess. |
MinutemanKirk
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:06:00 -
[184] - Quote
I think that, while the intent of the changes are heartfelt and decent, how they were executed leaves something to be desired. Before going into details I would like to say that to my knowledge, this is the first time since Inferno that an armor tanked ship has been specifically suggested in a rebalance thread to be flown as a shield ship. While there is nothing wrong with suggesting it from an after the fact "here's a setup that could work" style, you have suggested it in the initial core design concept. You made yourself famous, in part, by not sticking with whatever the ship was "designed" to do and making your own unique setups based on creativity in the fitting. What astounds me the most is that you are giving it the same mid-low slot layout as the Hyperion while at the same time changing the Hyp by saying that it isn't good enough at brawling, how then do you expect the Mega to do the same thing WITHOUT a rep bonus? My suggesting would be to leave the 7th slot low and let players make up their own minds in it's current form when.
Hyperion: This change will work wonders with the single rep versions by granting resists and room for more DPS. Triple rep version is totally out and dual rep version will be unlikely with out the extra mid I fear. As has been also mentioned, I don't think it will find much use in fleets without either having the rep bonus be for both received and local reps while also not having a turret bonus that is useful for range (optimal, tracking, falloff, etc). For changes, I would suggest either a larger rep bonus (assuming that most of the changes stay as they are) or granting a vastly increased cap and cap recharge. I think that would go a long way towards helping with all of the "need more boosters" concerns.
Mega: As expressed above I think the current line of thinking is terrible. You want to give it more mids for dual propping or shield tanking but only give it 25 more CPU. You want to make it a larger version of the Talos but only give a minor speed bonus and no mass reduction. I do like the ROF bonus, but without addressing the above concerns, I doubt it will do much good.
Dominix: Once again my beloved drone boats are getting "buff...NERFED!" One of the few redeeming qualities of the dominix was flexibility, you could have a viable blaster focused, drones focused or even a neut focused, ship. With the changes, I like how you want to make the drone race a pure drone battleship. That said, I think you should also give your preliminary thoughts on the sentry changes since you are expressly stating that is how you think they would be viable as a fleet ship. I would also like to point out that because sentries are so vulnerable to a firewall BS, the ability to completely remove a fleets DPS should be countered by said ship having something to fall back on, which ironically, you HAVE given to the Amarr: a neut bonus. Even if the geddon loses all it's drones it can still be useful in the fleet. Without a hybrid bonus, and assuming I'm fitting the domi for drones (i.e. drone damage augmentors, drone range, etc.) then I will likely be missing a turret and have no magstabs or anything else with which to boost my turret potential. Thus my turret damage will be anemic at best, irrelevant at worst. My thoughts to fix this, currently without knowing the sentry rebalance thoughts, would be to either A: make the domi a PURE drone boat; remove the turrets, give it a larger damage bonus, give it a larger drone bay and throw in another low and mid slot for tankability or B: give it another useful role in fleet warfare. EWAR (could be anything from ECM to point range), remote assistance via reps or some other fleet bonus, SOMETHING to give it something to do when the inevitable firewall kill off all the drones. In no other weapons system can a foe specifically eliminate your DPS without requiring warfare on your ship. As such, if you want to make this, as stated, a sentry/drone fleet doctrine, there needs to be something giving it a fair shot at doing so. |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
573
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:08:00 -
[185] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light?
What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite.
To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day?
|
Ryuce
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:10:00 -
[186] - Quote
Amantus wrote:in this thread: a bunch of nerds who hate and fear change Unlike an autistic nerd like you? |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:15:00 -
[187] - Quote
Grendell wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light? What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite. To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day?
I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.
For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!
|
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Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:15:00 -
[188] - Quote
Amantus wrote:in this thread: a bunch of nerds who hate and fear change
Sorry bro but fear of change is =/= to fear of poorly thought out balance changes produced by incompetent grey matter. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
214
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:21:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Grendell wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light? What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite. To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day? I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from. For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!
And over the last 150 days, how many were shield fitted? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3275
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:23:00 -
[190] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.
For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!
Hey Rise,
Ok, that's great. Again, top line metrics are somewhere between misleading and dangerously misleading. Have you broken this down into regions, sec statuses, fleet sizes, or any other kinds of metrics? Have you excluded damage that didn't result in a kill? Have you excluded structures?
-Liang
Ed: BTW, I don't just "understand SOME statistics". I have a *deep* understanding of game analytics - and I am offering you professional game analytics advice. Feel free to evemail me (or email me) if you want to make the discussion more private. But seriously. Top line metrics are bad for your health. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Baldyface Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:23:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Grendell wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light? What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite. To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day? I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from. For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!
The only way I can imagine such a token ship, "Ohhh look a Hyperion!", being number three in pvp damage over the last 150 days, is if you have all the CONCORD ships accidentally tied into the Hyperion stats. |
AlexKent
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:24:00 -
[192] - Quote
For the love of god, please get rid of the active armor rep bonus on the hyperion already, it is marginally used in very specific situations and is sub-par with all the other armor tanked ships. It's a great looking ship i always wanted to fly, give it a proper bonus.
Also, not only you did not fix the hyperion, now you ****** the megathron aswell. Make at least one ship on the gallente line-up viable for large fleets. If you started adding mids, you might just aswell add another so we can properly shield tank it.
As for the Domi, who in his right mind would fly a potato when one of the best looking ships in game does exactly the same thing (geddon).
You guys at CCP really hate gallente don't you? |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:25:00 -
[193] - Quote
Yeah i really cant see how hyperions could be doing more damage in pvp than say, nagas, rokhs, archons, etc. |
Tsia
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:26:00 -
[194] - Quote
As a huge Megathron enthusiast, I'm....
...not sure how I feel about this! I like the idea that you're giving more ships the ability to use MJD, as the Megathron sorely lost out on that due to the 'necessary' mids (Point, web, mwd cap booster) along with the fact it's more mobile. I'll be interested to see how it actually goes with armour honeycombing etc.
I don't think it'll help it out in big fleet doctrines, but then not every ship SHOULD be made to fit big fleet doctrines. Got to say though, losing that 7th low is going to hurt, as the lower drone DPS combined with the removal of a (likely) damage mod will bring it's damage down, and that's where the Megathron shone. The wonderful glass canon.
I'd flat out say that given the 125 drone bay/bandwidth back, this would be a fantastic ship for solo and small gang. Maybe even 150, so you can carry a round of lights, too. Remember, it's still paper thin. Oh and to hell with the launcher, nobody should care. ;)
Could be (read: Probably am) wrong, but time will tell! |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
576
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:28:00 -
[195] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Grendell wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light? What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite. To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day? I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from. For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!
Well let me put it another way. While statistics are all fun and dandy, they can't be used to paint an accurate picture of the situation. You can sue statistics to help, but they can't be the end all fact to push an issue in any given direction. To get a clear picture of the situation you have to follow what people are using as the norm.
You may not have the luxury as a developer to enjoy as much pvp experience as some of us players do. I personally have the luxury to be apart of a few alliances and have been for years. There has never been a single doctrine or fleet setup in any of them that included the Megathron for years. In just about every situation there is a better choice. The guys that usually fly it are the ones who can't fly the main choice, or because they just want to be in a ship they find pretty.
You asked what role we wanted for the Megathron? We want our old badass, in your face, punch swinging, beer guzzling, woman harassing, FREEDOM yelling, Pimpthron back. We don't want to be the retarde.d cousin that was brought along out of pitty.
EDIT: Since when did you guys filter out the word "Retarde.d"
|
Karti Aivo
Carnivore Company Honey Badger Coalition
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:28:00 -
[196] - Quote
You just killed my shield brawling Hyperion :( |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:28:00 -
[197] - Quote
I have no idea what you're trying to do with the Hype and Mega.
The Mega especially, just about every Megathron fit I can think of makes use of all of it's lows. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
715
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:31:00 -
[198] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:CCP Rise wrote: I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.
For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!
Ed: BTW, I don't just "understand SOME statistics". I have a *deep* understanding of game analytics - and I am offering you professional game analytics advice. Feel free to evemail me (or email me) if you want to make the discussion more private. But seriously. Top line metrics are bad for your health.
Rofl wtf? BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
359
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:33:00 -
[199] - Quote
Good choices - I can't complaint since I voiced the exact same opinions about slot layouts and bonus in the recent past. The only thing striking me is the Megathron drone bay should be reduced to 100m3 like the band with or we will be spammed with way too many ecm-drones... |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3277
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:34:00 -
[200] - Quote
Grendell wrote: Well let me put it another way. While statistics are all fun and dandy, they can't be used to paint an accurate picture of the situation. You can sue statistics to help, but they can't be the end all fact to push an issue in any given direction. To get a clear picture of the situation you have to follow what people are using as the norm.
You may not have the luxury as a developer to enjoy as much pvp experience as some of us players do. I personally have the luxury to be apart of a few alliances and have been for years. There has never been a single doctrine or fleet setup in any of them that included the Megathron for years. In just about every situation there is a better choice. The guys that usually fly it are the ones who can't fly the main choice, or because they just want to be in a ship they find pretty.
You asked what role we wanted for the Megathron? We want our old badass, in your face, punch swinging, beer guzzling, woman harassing, FREEDOM yelling, Pimpthron back. We don't want to be the retarde.d cousin that was brought along out of pitty.
I'm pretty sure that CCP Rise is Kil2. Feel free to go watch his PVP experience on his old Youtube channel. I may not agree with him, but do try to give him (and the rest of the CCP team) a break from the "You don't play your own game" stuff. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3277
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:36:00 -
[201] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Rofl wtf?
He obviously needs *someone* to explain how to look at those statistics. I don't care if it's me or not (preferably not, TBQFH) - but *someone* has to explain it to him. The fact he keeps falling back on top line metrics is horribly frightening. :(
-Liang
Ed: Unless you're happy with him thinking the Hype is just fine and dandy because it's the primary go-to for offline structure bashing in high sec. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:37:00 -
[202] - Quote
I don't like the changes to the Hyperion at all.. It all but ruins every useful fit.
It's poor at missions, and poor at 1v1.. It's only useful in fleets with support, and now it loses mids that it needs for those rolls..
It makes it useless for Incursions, and **** poor for PvP fleets.
How about you just leave the Hype alone, until you are willing to fix active armor tanking, or drop that bonus outright for something useful. |
Anna Verhyldvar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:38:00 -
[203] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote: Sentry drones are overpowered. 150 km with 1 omnilink, seriously?
Yes, what a lovely number it makes in the "Show info" window.
Of course, to actually HIT anything out at that range, you'd need several Drone Link Augmentors (4, I think), and since the Dominix has a base targeting range of 70km, you'll need to fit 2 Sensor Boosters with targeting range scripts, or a few signal amplifiers.
So, wow, after using 4 high slots and 3 mid slots (or 1 mid and 3-4 lows), you can finally target and hit something at 150km. Oh and then you'll be doing kinetic damage, in fairly low amounts.
Whoop de frickin doo. |
Tsia
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:40:00 -
[204] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Good choices - I can't complaint since I voiced the exact same opinions about slot layouts and bonus in the recent past. The only thing striking me is the Megathron drone bay should be reduced to 100m3 like the band with or we will be spammed with way too many ecm-drones...
No. Every time a (decent) Mega pilot puts something that isn't a DPS drone in its bay, they get a horrible sinking feeling in their heart. |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
661
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:43:00 -
[205] - Quote
love the domi changed. I put off training T2 heavy and sentry drones for 2 years because there was no focused drone boat. This change might make me train those skills. Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Imawuss
Origin. Black Legion.
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:44:00 -
[206] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years. I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded.
I've been playing for about 2 years, i can count on two hands how many times i've seen a Hyperion in a pvp fleet. And when i did it was a kitchen sink fleet. To be fair i have even used a Hyperion but because i love how it looks and i knew i was flying an inferior ship. I rarely see this ship anywhere high-sec,low-sec, null-sec.
Now my observations obviously are trumped by your metrics but like you said if they are among the highest damage dealers to other ships perhaps you should find out why.... These are Shield tanked Hyperions sitting on gates or stations. These ships discard the rep bonus and go full gank. You need to decide what would make this rep bonus work for PVE and or PVP. As it stands now it is NOT viable for pve as blasters do not have the required range, and rails are outperformed by sentries via the dominx. It also does not have the cap to even run the guns stable. And for pvp the rep bonus is just sub par.
Exchange the rep bonus for an armor amount bonus Until you figure it out.. 7.75% more armor HP's per level. Problem solved.
So the 1 purpose this ship has you actually nerfed. 5 mids allowed a descent shield tank and speed mod, with 6 lows more than enough for damage and tracking mods. SO i guess with 4 mids we can have a pathetic tank in exchange for 50 more dps... yay. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:46:00 -
[207] - Quote
CCP Rise, perhaps you could give a little attention to the Amarr BS thread? Your all over the other 3 threads, in particular this Gallente one, and I'd dearly love to see some response from you to what has been hashed over on that thread. |
Alice Saki
Suddenly Spaced Out Suddenly Spaceships.
43161
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:47:00 -
[208] - Quote
Pelea Ming wrote:CCP Rise, perhaps you could give a little attention to the Amarr BS thread? Your all over the other 3 threads, in particular this Gallente one, and I'd dearly love to see some response from you to what has been hashed over on that thread.
This, Not everyone is 'OMG BLASTERS NOM NOM NOM'
|
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:47:00 -
[209] - Quote
Hyperion cannot realise it's potential currently with the poor powergrid it has. Unless you increase that to allow the option of higher tier guns witht the dual tank then it remains very poor.
Whilst I like the idea of 5 mids / 6 lows for the megathron I'm not sure if it'll work. Losing that low for a ship that typically armour buffer tanks could be a deal breaker. I'll have to fly this one before I could really say.
The dominix looks awesome.
One big question, not just limited to the Gallente BS - Why are you still maintaining a distinction for the sensor strengths of these ships? That should be one of the first things out the door with tiericide imo. Bump them all up to the current tier 3 level and bring more distinction between BS and BC. |
Tsia
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:48:00 -
[210] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Pelea Ming wrote:CCP Rise, perhaps you could give a little attention to the Amarr BS thread? Your all over the other 3 threads, in particular this Gallente one, and I'd dearly love to see some response from you to what has been hashed over on that thread. This, Not everyone is 'OMG BLASTERS NOM NOM NOM'
You, both, shush. |
|
Alice Saki
Suddenly Spaced Out Suddenly Spaceships.
43161
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:49:00 -
[211] - Quote
I'm gonna Bump your Vindi off station Tsia =D
|
Dilanski Maulerant
Lexmark Industries ACME Holding Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:50:00 -
[212] - Quote
No I am not 'excited' about the Megathron. Or the Hyperion. Or the Dominix for that matter. All I see is my Mega performing worse, and the Hyperion still stuck with a niche/useless bonus until your active armour fix materialises, even then relegating it from any environment with logistics. [/rant] |
Tsia
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:50:00 -
[213] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:I'm gonna Bump your Vindi off station Tsia =D
|
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:51:00 -
[214] - Quote
As many others have stated, I'm a bit sad about the Hyp. The rep bonus pretty much makes it useful only in small gang/solo situations, where every piece of tackle matters. Removing its fifth mid really reduces the Hyp's effectiveness in both of these situations.
As far as the Mega goes, I'm not particularly happy with the new slot layout either. While the ships are occasionally shield tanked in a goofy attempt to make a big, less effective Talos, the reality is that the Mega is far more likely to be armor tanked. Taking away a low slot means you're losing either 10k EHP or 150 DPS in order to gain a utility mid. I'm not sure about anyone else, but having that extra tank or DPS is far more useful in most situations than a second web. If you're going up against ECM, then sure, the fifth mid is handy for an ECCM, but in every other situation, the low slot is far more valuable.
As a side note, a lot of people are bitching about the large fleet applicability of these ships. While I understand that it sucks that Gallente ships aren't as good for large fleets, it's not necessarily a bad thing for the game. Gallente ships tend to be monsters in small gangs, and I'd hate to see their ability to be effective on the small scale in the name of making them "fleet viable." |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:52:00 -
[215] - Quote
A few quick words.
The Hyperion will still remain useless and unused as it was before. You want to make the active armor tanking viable, but that is still a future project and with a long road ahead of it. You also go ahead and remove a midslot making even harder the ability to fit a MJD for the damn Hyperion (fitted with Blasters that have the smallest active range of all turrets in game).
How it's supposed to reach the target? How it's supposed to stay alive with all those cap hungry mods active?
Please think it over again.
Megathron.
I am not quite biased against the ROF bonus. But I would like to ask you how it's possible for the Mega to stay alive while it's trying to reach the target with a tank worse than before. How is the Mega going to sustain the modules being active while the blasters are eating away the capacitor? It would be better to lose 1 high slot (that of the one launcher) than a low slot or a mid.
And to add salt to the injury (from removing one low power slot) you further decrease the armor. What is the meaning of this? You think that will improve it's survivability chances? You believe that somehow this might help the Mega being more used?
Please do reconsider.
As for the Domi.
I am a drone user. I like them and I use them alot. So I am not disappointed by the change to a dedicated drone boat that much. But I am grossly appalled by the rest of the changes. Bigger signature to a ship that will be forced to stay still to deploy sentries?
How about you give the domi a new paint job with a giant bulls eye as the main piece.
Only five mid slots to a ship that his only weapon (hey Armageddon gets at least a neut/nos bonus too) are drones and the most useful modules are occupying medium power slots?
All in all the Gallente ships get once more the worst part of everything you might give to the ships. It feels like you want to see Gallente ships of the map.
So far these changes are not well thought and in some cases (like the Hyperion and Dominix) utterly useless and demeaning.
If you don't want us to use Gallente ships (and most specifically Battleships) please say so and be done with it.
|
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:53:00 -
[216] - Quote
double post fail |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:57:00 -
[217] - Quote
So for some more aspects to these changes that have me wondering and seems like there are many contradictions in the whole Gal BS line up. So:
1) Attack BS = faster, combat BS= slower and tanky right? So the Mega is the attack BS, so faster, but only if shield tanked right? Because if you armor buffer it then its now slower than the active tanked Hyperion which if properly rigged will outrun it (due to rig changes.) And that is if you use the Hyperion as its designed. And of course, you must because shield tanking a Hyperion is now out and why buffer tank it and not use a bonus? Which, ok, got it, so which is attack again? Maybe the Hyperion should be attack and able to shield tank or active armor rep? Leave the Mega as is maybe? There is something here that just doesn't jibe. Maybe I'm dense. I mean CCP says they envision the Hyperion as a brawler in small gang work.... sounds like attack to me.
2) Then there is this whole ROF thing on the Mega. I was trying to work this in eft but not sure if I have this right. In fact, I may have this wrong (not a math god here.) So by going to ROF vice damage increase BUT when you turn on overheat that increases damage and not ROF. Because that %heat increase is applied to a much smaller number now doesn't that mean a corresponding lower rate of overall DPS than before? If so this sounds like a nerf to heated DPS. Its also uses more ammo and more cap. So while I'm seeing the benefit of shooting more often and how that can be a benefit, how well does it pair with heat bonus?
3) Tristan, Vexor and Domi seem really out of line now. Its seems like the pure drone boat deal was more of a specialized trait like in the proposed Navy Vexor. The BC also were always something special, particularly as two of the BC's have that horrible armor rep thing going. I don't know. If you could overheat drones, maybe the loss of the guns bonus would seem worthwhile, but it just seems kind of meh compared to the Geddon. Overall it just seems to lack the coherency of the other racial lines. |
fukier
891
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:57:00 -
[218] - Quote
im not sure the domi needs all those high slots...
imo i would prefer you move a high to a mid
so this is what i would like to see
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 7L; 5 turrets (-1) , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45) At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
63
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:57:00 -
[219] - Quote
Seriously CCP. Stop trying to make Gallente into minmatar , ammar into gallente and minmatar into ammar!
The races have CONCEPTUAL FLAVOR. Stop trying to turn everything upside down!
Minmatar are supposed to be faster and less HP, Amarr damage projection with a lot of HP and slo, Gallente are the drone guys
Why putting everything upside down while still keeping the battleships as NOT GOOD ENOUGH as overall class ?
I liked everythgin you guys made up unitl now for this expansion, but the battleship changes are HORRIBLE!! Stop MIXING RACES DAMMIT! |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:58:00 -
[220] - Quote
I really dont see why people hate on the armor rep bonus. Its really really good. |
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Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
254
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:58:00 -
[221] - Quote
I've been just rageposting about the Dominix, I think I should give feedback on the other two Gallente ships:
An idea I've seen with a lot of merit (WRT the Hyperion) in this thread is a reduction in cap usage in conjunction with the Armor Repair bonus. This would absolutely help with the concerns over losing that second Cap booster.
As far as the Megathron is concerned... I think you guys are going the wrong way with the slot switch. Drop the utility high for another mid if you feel it needs it, or even consider the Hype as the Attack BS, considering it's supposed to be active tank. Trimarks are going to hurt the Mega, whereas the Aux nanos and Nanobots won't hinder the Hype. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
120
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:00:00 -
[222] - Quote
Anna Verhyldvar wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote: Sentry drones are overpowered. 150 km with 1 omnilink, seriously?
Yes, what a lovely number it makes in the "Show info" window. Of course, to actually HIT anything out at that range, you'd need several Drone Link Augmentors (4, I think), and since the Dominix has a base targeting range of 70km, you'll need to fit 2 Sensor Boosters with targeting range scripts, or a few signal amplifiers. So, wow, after using 4 high slots and 3 mid slots (or 1 mid and 3-4 lows), you can finally target and hit something at 150km. Oh and then you'll be doing kinetic damage, in fairly low amounts. Whoop de frickin doo. Now explain me how I can perform at least close to that with heavy drones.
Realistically, you only fit 2 drone links in any reasonable fit to get 100 km range, 150 km was to emphasize the absurd. You can switch to better tracking when fighting at close range. On top of that, you can choose damage type. And no, you dont need SeBo, you just assign them.
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
63
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:00:00 -
[223] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I really dont see why people hate on the armor rep bonus. Its really really good.
it was weak with only 6 low slots. With 7 it will be ok. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:02:00 -
[224] - Quote
Anna Verhyldvar wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote: Sentry drones are overpowered. 150 km with 1 omnilink, seriously?
Yes, what a lovely number it makes in the "Show info" window. Of course, to actually HIT anything out at that range, you'd need several Drone Link Augmentors (4, I think), and since the Dominix has a base targeting range of 70km, you'll need to fit 2 Sensor Boosters with targeting range scripts, or a few signal amplifiers. So, wow, after using 4 high slots and 3 mid slots (or 1 mid and 3-4 lows), you can finally target and hit something at 150km. Oh and then you'll be doing kinetic damage, in fairly low amounts. Whoop de frickin doo.
Great post, hilarious. The only you forgot to add was "or you could just fly a Apoc or a Rokh and do it 10 times better." |
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:03:00 -
[225] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I really dont see why people hate on the armor rep bonus. Its really really good.
It's because they can't take advantage of it while in a fleet with 100 other people, therefore it's bad.
Don't you know, solo/small gang pvp is dead. No blob, no pvp. |
Frothgar
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:03:00 -
[226] - Quote
Any chance you could address the issue of BS mass interacting with wormholes while you're on BS? They're just too massive to bring in any gang (You're limited to ~10bs if you want to return)
Battleships are fun and more fleet variety is always fun. I'd just love so way of bringing a viable BS gang through wormholes without leading to cap blobs. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
437
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:04:00 -
[227] - Quote
Just in case this is a mock gallente battleship rebalance just to make your REAL OFFER more appealing....
Hype 8/4/7 5% damage, 7.5% tracking
Megathron 7/5/7 5% ROF 7.5% Active tanking strength and cap usage.
Dominic 6/6/7 10% drone bonuses.....
Or something. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:05:00 -
[228] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Michael Harari wrote:I really dont see why people hate on the armor rep bonus. Its really really good. it was weak with only 6 low slots. With 7 it will be ok.
With 7 its useless since you just get neuted and explode |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1226
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:05:00 -
[229] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.
For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!
Mega will be No. 3 for pvp damage after the changes since it will be the shield tanked gank boat. What happens to the Hyperion then?
Gallente need a "survivable brawler" at the BS level - give the Hyperion a remote reps received bonus. All those high sec gankers have neutral RR boosts anyways, so it won't affect their playstyle one bit. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1996
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:06:00 -
[230] - Quote
With the domi switching to a drone DPS platform.... you should consider moving one of it's highs to a midslot or lowslot position.
It's powergrid often limits fully utilizing 6 highslots, and they're now delegated as a secondary function anyway... |
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:09:00 -
[231] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:Michael Harari wrote:I really dont see why people hate on the armor rep bonus. Its really really good. It's because they can't take advantage of it while in a fleet with 100 other people, therefore it's bad. Don't you know, solo/small gang pvp is dead. No blob, no pvp. Tell that to the Neutralizers that will land on you the second they target you.
It doesn't take 100 to kill your cap. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:10:00 -
[232] - Quote
I was originally pretty mad about the domi. However after further consideration, as someone who can afford to fly and lose vindicators, I realize this change doesn't really affect me. Sucks to be space poor!
I could warm up to the hype changes if it got a little more grid/cpu ,but the mega change is unforgiveable. |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:10:00 -
[233] - Quote
What are you doing to the Domi? You have effectively killed it as a PVE ship. Those mids are now useless unless your shield tank. However, you go shield tank and you lose the tracking computers so the mag stabs are doing nothing due to the guns missing.
Great way to make Gallente a terrible race. I agree with what has been said about all the ships. You guys seem to have no direction at all. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
63
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:12:00 -
[234] - Quote
What i get angry is that CCP made exaclty what I feared, made the megatron STEAL completely the role of the tempest. The remainder role of heavy neut ship was stolen by the geddon. |
Bap1811
Brave Newbies Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:14:00 -
[235] - Quote
I'm not sure I agree with these changes from a solo/small gang perspective.
The Hyperion is a great ship in its current state as far as "stats" go. It reps alot, it deals decent bit of damage and it has alot of mids, its one of the better active armor tanks (probably the only one tbh). The main problems it has is applying damage, but thats just like all BS, and I went abit more indepth in my previous post in your other thread.
The changes are a straight up nerf, running an active armor tank with a single cap booster (which is what your forcing people to do with only 4 mids AKA web tackle speed mod cap booster) is suicide, it doesnt really work, heavy blasters just take too big a toll on top of some MWDing AND the reps.
The Megathron is an iffy one, I ******* love the mega and it hurts to see it sacrifice its armor version to be able to fit a shield version.
If you take a standard buffer armor fit, this is also a straight nerf to it, you're losing that low (either a 1600 or a mag stab) which is a straight nerf to tank/damage and adding a mid. Except no one really needs that mid (ECCM is usefull but not worth losing 200 DPS or 20K EHP, nothing is worth that actually, the best thing you can add is probably a second web to be able to hit BCs effectively).
I guess we'll see how the shield version works out, I doubt it'll be worth it. I'm deffinitly expecting it to be faster and that might work out but I expect some sort of gimmicky glass cannon fit with little EHP. I remember when shield brutixes were all the rage. It might be good for incursions right?
Unfortunatly the Dominix changes also make me sad, the DPS bonus on the blasters kinda gave it that competitive edge in straight up fights. The tracking/range bonuses dont seem very usefull. Keeping in mind Ogres had no problems hitting a webbed BCs I dont see whats the point of giving them better tracking, to hit cruisers? I'm not sure how removing DPS against BCs and BS (important) and adding possible DPS against cruisers(meh) is a good choice. This change just confuses me.
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SpeedY G0nZaleZ
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:14:00 -
[236] - Quote
I like the changes. But I am looking at that poor Hyperion.
It always struck me as odd that Gallente ships never had an EWAR platform at the BS level. Perhaps adding a third bonus to damp strength (and a midslot?) would make these brawling monsters in small gang.
Adding a midslot may be imbalanced if you are adding a low (which it does need). Considering you are going to have to run an MWD and an injector maybe just adding a pretty high (+100% at lvl 5) bonus would make this able to dictate pwn in small fights. |
Johan March
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:16:00 -
[237] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Anna Verhyldvar wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote: Sentry drones are overpowered. 150 km with 1 omnilink, seriously?
Yes, what a lovely number it makes in the "Show info" window. Of course, to actually HIT anything out at that range, you'd need several Drone Link Augmentors (4, I think), and since the Dominix has a base targeting range of 70km, you'll need to fit 2 Sensor Boosters with targeting range scripts, or a few signal amplifiers. So, wow, after using 4 high slots and 3 mid slots (or 1 mid and 3-4 lows), you can finally target and hit something at 150km. Oh and then you'll be doing kinetic damage, in fairly low amounts. Whoop de frickin doo. Great post, hilarious. The only you forgot to add was "or you could just fly a Apoc or a Rokh and do it 10 times better."
I know this is being snarky and you guys put a lot of work into this, but it's the crux of the opposition here. The Gallente ships are based on a lot of "we're going to fix that" down the road (e.g. drones and active armor tanking). Meanwhile a lot of newbies will be going Gallente because the ships look cool and they support freedom and liberal democracy. And then find out, like many players, that a lot of their chosen race's ships suck. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
120
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:17:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.
There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.
Thanks for the feedback Yes, Hyper is in trouble but Domi is a complete disaster. Please bring it back. You guys seriously think that it is fun to fit a ship that can only be fit one way? More versatility, damn it, not less!
But if you need some fresh ideas for Hype - here you have it. In fact, take a look at it's picture. See that? The engines! Increase it's max speed like seriously, up to 170, but make it's agility the worst ever. Now you have a brawler that can get in range, wreck havoc, and gtfo. |
Plyn
Dominatus Imperium
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:19:00 -
[239] - Quote
So glad I've been cross training. Hossenfeffer. |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth R.E.P.O.
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:19:00 -
[240] - Quote
I haven't slept about it yet but so far i cannot find much good about these changes.
Megathron: is there any particular reason to ruin an overall OK bs? Attack role? how does it move into attack role by loosing DSP and Tank? thats way too much nerf. Do folks really care about that med slot? what you want on an armor gunship bs are low slots and drones which can deal with targets your guns can't deal with (topic of projecting damage). pretty hefty nerf for that ship in my eyes atm.
Dominix: well, the domi does better with the heavy neuts/energy transfer/remote rep modules anyway in pvp than with guns due to PG issues, so the large hybrid turret damage thingy is not that bad really. Making it quasi pure drone boat is an ok move.. This change wont really affect what we do with that ship anyway. I just dont understand why it needs so much more base armor, it already was massively tanky in most situations due to rarely being fitted with (big) guns for pvp. so in the end this change leaves me kind of puzzled as well.
Hyperion: no opinion, we don't use this ship
|
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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:21:00 -
[241] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Tell that to the Neutralizers that will land on you the second they target you.
It doesn't take 100 to kill your cap.
True, but this argument is applicable to any active tanked (non-ASB) ship. With dual cap boosters you can stay up against a fair number of neuts, but not an overwhelming amount. |
Jureth22
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:21:00 -
[242] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:First
Edit:How about the Dominix gains some extra drone bay to set apart for the Armageddon, as they have identical drone bandwidth and drone bay.
15% damage to drones for domi :D.that should settle it |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
311
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:24:00 -
[243] - Quote
Jureth22 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:First
Edit:How about the Dominix gains some extra drone bay to set apart for the Armageddon, as they have identical drone bandwidth and drone bay. 15% damage to drones for domi :D.that should settle it Replace damage/hitpoint bonus with +1 drones/level, make it a REAL drone boat :) |
Jureth22
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:26:00 -
[244] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Jureth22 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:First
Edit:How about the Dominix gains some extra drone bay to set apart for the Armageddon, as they have identical drone bandwidth and drone bay. 15% damage to drones for domi :D.that should settle it Replace damage/hitpoint bonus with +1 drones/level, make it a REAL drone boat :)
thats even ******* better.
NOTE : guys need to relax,this is a very earlier stage for new expansion,a lot of ships will need rebalance so these changes wont look bad compared to x and y. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1179
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:28:00 -
[245] - Quote
Oh wow the changes to the Hype and the Mega make me glad I fly minmatar and Amarr. Those are going to be some useless lumps. |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:28:00 -
[246] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Tell that to the Neutralizers that will land on you the second they target you.
It doesn't take 100 to kill your cap. True, but this argument is applicable to any active tanked (non-ASB) ship. With dual cap boosters you can stay up against a fair number of neuts, but not an overwhelming amount. Great. With 4 mid slots and the apparent need for a MJD and a secondary propulsion mod, adding 2 cap boosters really helps the Hyperion to do something at least equal to the other 3 tier 3 Battleships.
I think not. And even if you don't use a MJD. You still are left with one (1) mid slot to fit what? A web? An eccm? A scrambler?
Somehow I can't rejoice trying to solve this dilemma. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
256
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:29:00 -
[247] - Quote
Quote: +1 drones/level, make it a REAL drone boat :)
This I'm fine with. Even if you have to drop turrets to balance it. They are unbonused anyway, so **** it. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
TijsseN
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:30:00 -
[248] - Quote
My thoughts about the galente rebalancing:
The Dominix re - balance towards a dedicated drone boat makes it specialized as a mini carrier, but it is not as effective as for example the new Armageddon with its neut bonus. I would recommend to give it more dronebay than the Armageddon, to make the difference between Galente and Amarr consistent. (Galente more DPS / Drone capacity) vs Amarr (More tank / neut bonusses). From destroyer up to carrier (pick your style).
The Megathron can now be used as a large Talos in a shield gank configuration for dps, or a armor based support bs conifguration with a reduced damage output. Specfic fits for specfic roles will emerge, but the mega will likely become the swiss army knife of battleships instead of the current Dominix. (preferred weapon blasters)
The Hyperion needs some love, one good looking BS is never fielded, because CCP apparently does not want Galente to have an armor fleet battleship. It seems that the current version is mirroring the Maelstrom (long range rail fit), but details for fitting need to be worked out. Make it so it can have a buffer tank and large guns. |
Edd Nicholls
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:31:00 -
[249] - Quote
I think these changes make Gallente have a pretty bad line-up. The Dominix is now clearly inferior to the proposed Armageddon. I never had issues with range or tracking of drones and it will lack drone control range to make much use of the range bonus to sentry drones. The Mega I guess will fill the hole left by the hype as a shield gank ship but I still think there is room for a buffer fit armour ship which the new look mega will not perform as well in. The hype is now pretty much good for nothing in my eyes. It will almost certainly underperform dual ASB Rohks and Mealstroms and offer pretty much no utility in its mids now to compensate. If you are going to persist with making it an active armour ship then at the minimum it needs more PG. |
MaverickScot
Diminishing Returns.
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:33:00 -
[250] - Quote
Oh, and please return the Megathron hull back to the iconic shape that it one was. It looks like it was stood on then melted. |
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Gauro Charante
Vile Duck Pond
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:34:00 -
[251] - Quote
I think the armor reps should have another bonus than just repping part, like when active adds 10% armor hp or something. And Gallente boats Repping Bonus should be 10% effectivness, thus rep more and ad 15% armor hp at full skills. This would give Gallente boats large armor pool wich could be good even in fleets (just put a small rep for the armor bonus). |
EndersChild
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:35:00 -
[252] - Quote
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 7 turrets(-1) , 0 launchers(-1) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 (+25) / 125 (+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 110km / 110 / 7
Drop the rep bonus. Give it a new clearly defined role like with the proposed changes to the Armageddon
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1140
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:36:00 -
[253] - Quote
Keep the Dominix bonuses as they are. There is room to play with a pure drone boat in the form of the Navy Issue Dominix. I think everyone is happy with the Vexor and excited by the prospect of the Navy Issue Vexor....
The Armageddon is also too strong by comparison. I'd move a high slot on it somewhere else and limit the dronebay to 250m^3. |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:37:00 -
[254] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Quote: +1 drones/level, make it a REAL drone boat :) This I'm fine with. Even if you have to drop turrets to balance it. They are unbonused anyway, so **** it.
Pretty much. I see no point in the ship for PvE.. It has basically gained a bonus that adds nothing to the ship at the cost of losing turret dps.
CCP Rise. For PvE whare are the mid and high slots suppose to be?
4 x drone links + ?? 1 x omni/1 x sensor booster (I can make do with 1) + 3 x ???
Lows remain the same as usual.
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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
311
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:37:00 -
[255] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Great. With 4 mid slots and the apparent need for a MJD and a secondary propulsion mod, adding 2 cap boosters really helps the Hyperion to do something at least equal to the other 3 tier 3 Battleships.
I think not. And even if you don't use a MJD. You still are left with one (1) mid slot to fit what? A web? An eccm? A scrambler?
Somehow I can't rejoice trying to solve this dilemma.
If you read my first post in this thread, you'll see that it is my opinion that the Hyp absolutely needs 5 mids to be effective. Though I much rather run dual cap, scram + web, and either MWD or MJD, rather than dual proping it. The web is just far too valuable to the ship's ability to actually apply its damage to remove.
My point in my previous several posts is that many of the comments in this thread are complaining about how terrible active rep bonuses are. While they are not helpful in large fleets, they can be very effective if used right in solo/small gang fights. |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Unclaimed.
216
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:38:00 -
[256] - Quote
I'm somewhat ambivalent about the changes to the Dominix, in light of the Armageddon's new role as a neut/drone platform. The new Armageddon renders the neut Dominix functionally obsolete, and heavily infringes on the Dominix's traditional role as a versatile drone boat. The tracking bonus will help the Dominix apply dps, but won't really offset the lost turret damage for gank fits. It seems as though for the Armageddon will most likely replace the Dominix in PvP for most purposes, since it will be a more effective neut platform, and an equally effective gank platform.
I'm also not sure why you think sentry drones need a buff. Sentry drones are often used for PvP by dedicated drone boats and are better in PvE than either heavy drones or fighters. Heavy drones deal marginally higher paper damage, but even with drone navigation computers apply less damage in practice beyond 20km from the ship due to slow flight time, and die very quickly if primaried by anything. Fighters are outclassed by sentry drones because any carrier with drone damage amplifiers now deals more damage with sentries than even a max-skilled Thanatos does with fighters beyond 20km from the ship, and don't have the tank to handle much aggression. For all purposes, the drone damage amplifier has made the Thanatos functionally obsolete, but that is a matter for a different thread.
It also seems as though you are trying to make local tanking viable in fleets. Don't. Unless you add stacking penalties for damage and remote repair, local tanking will never be viable in any engagement involving more than five or so pilots. |
Saul Hyperion
Palmetto Galactic
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:40:00 -
[257] - Quote
The other 3 races are very solid throughout, but a near complete swing and miss on Gallente.
The Hyperion completely whiffs. While it desperately needed a low, it did not need one at the expense of a mid. It is completely outclassed on the fleet front by the Rokh and Abaddon due to their resists bonuses, and outclassed by the Maelstrom due to the weapon system. Active armor tanking is still terrible, despite efforts to fix it. I bit my tongue on the BC changes with the promise of the AAR, but now that it's live I am disappointed in armor tanking once again. So I will say I am firmly opposed to active armor tanking bonuses on all hulls until it something DRASTIC changes with it.
At the very least, the Hyperion needs more hitpoints in armor to make up for this wasted bonus. It could also use some sort of range bonus to hybrids, either falloff or optimal, to give it some sort of direction. It's current bonus doesn't lend itself towards blasters or rails particularly well. A good falloff bonus would make it a beast with Null, a good optimal bonus would make it a rail platform. I'd lean towards the falloff because of the precedent of Gallente being a blaster platform and the fact that it's a travesty that the Rokh does blasters better than the current or proposed Hyperion.
The Megathron simultaneously addresses problems and creates problems. The Mega always needed a midslot to come into it's own, but it does not need one at the expense of a lowslot. Yet somehow the utility high slot still exists, despite being one of the least used slots in this game.
Drop the utility high, restore the low and the Megathron is heading down the right track.
As others have said in this post, the new Dominix bonus is pretty awesome, but it kills the utility that the Dominix currently has. I can live with this as split weapons are bad and hopefully drones get changed in the near future to fix their flaws. I maintain that drones are still to vulnerable to being killed/smartbombed and need a better HP bonus on all blaster ships.
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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
311
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:43:00 -
[258] - Quote
Saul Hyperion wrote: Drop the utility high, restore the low and the Megathron is heading down the right track.
But I love the neut on my mega |
Nemesis Factor
State Protectorate Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:45:00 -
[259] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Can I get that second bonus on the Rattlesnake I JUST upgraded to? You monsters.
It's funny because Rattler just BARELY won out to Navy Domi because I liked the new missile effects and hate the Domi ship model. Redesign it and I will consider forgiving you. |
Saul Hyperion
Palmetto Galactic
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:47:00 -
[260] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:Saul Hyperion wrote: Drop the utility high, restore the low and the Megathron is heading down the right track.
But I love the neut on my mega
I hate it. Need fitting (and cap, especially with this new RoF bonus) for other things |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
65
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:48:00 -
[261] - Quote
Edd Nicholls wrote:I think these changes make Gallente have a pretty bad line-up. The Dominix is now clearly inferior to the proposed Armageddon. I never had issues with range or tracking of drones and it will lack drone control range to make much use of the range bonus to sentry drones. The Mega I guess will fill the hole left by the hype as a shield gank ship but I still think there is room for a buffer fit armour ship which the new look mega will not perform as well in. The hype is now pretty much good for nothing in my eyes. It will almost certainly underperform dual ASB Rohks and Mealstroms and offer pretty much no utility in its mids now to compensate. If you are going to persist with making it an active armour ship then at the minimum it needs more PG.
In fact the dominix is the best sniper of gallente now :P
5 sentry drones with 4 drone damage augumentors and insange range :P |
Lubomir Penev
Your demographic
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:48:00 -
[262] - Quote
So no good option for RR armor gangs, needs to be a turret platform and neither the Mega with its gimped tank nor the Hyperion will do...
That's it, after 7 years, got to train Amarr.... Or ragequit, dunno yet...
Also, no one in its right mind would fly a domi over an Armageddon now...
Congratulation, you killed Gallente.
Also, diaf |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
71
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:51:00 -
[263] - Quote
Ughgh where to begin.
First i read the other threads. I wanted to save Galente for last so that i'd be awed by some sweet rebalancing love. But instead
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt Rise that you don't have a hate on for Gal. The Navy Vex and Exeq changes are super sweet. You definitely had your game on for that.
Perhaps since then you've had some bad dug up sheep head for Torrablot.
Hype: As mentioned it had a ' very ' limited use before. Didn't fit with a single null fleet doctrine, was of limited utility in most low sec fights. Didn't pve very well.
You've succeeded in making it worse however. It was slow, bulky, and 100% dependent on cap boosters before. Nothing has changed except, it's now gimped to fit the very cap boosters it needs to survive at the price of loosing a web or other critical mod. But wait you say ! It got a low slot You can fit a 1600 plate now . Exxxcept, we didnt give it any pg for that. Ohh ohhh you can put a resist on. And maybe be half as good as a Babbon with a resist bonus. Exxxcept , the Babbon has almost Six Thousand more base pg than a Hype. The only other bs with pg as crap as the Hype is the Rokh, which gets a RESIST bonus. And it uses ASB's which use cap boosters, but no cap.
+25 Bandwidth, +75 drone bay, +1500-2000 Pg, Drop a high, put the mid back and keep the low. Adjust the dps bonus to fit. Get rid of the useless rep bonus and GIVE IT A HP BONUS ! Then it can tank in an equivalent manner to the Babbon with 1 less low.
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luredivino
Juice Indicate
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:51:00 -
[264] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Edd Nicholls wrote:I think these changes make Gallente have a pretty bad line-up. The Dominix is now clearly inferior to the proposed Armageddon. I never had issues with range or tracking of drones and it will lack drone control range to make much use of the range bonus to sentry drones. The Mega I guess will fill the hole left by the hype as a shield gank ship but I still think there is room for a buffer fit armour ship which the new look mega will not perform as well in. The hype is now pretty much good for nothing in my eyes. It will almost certainly underperform dual ASB Rohks and Mealstroms and offer pretty much no utility in its mids now to compensate. If you are going to persist with making it an active armour ship then at the minimum it needs more PG. In fact the dominix is the best sniper of gallente now :P 5 sentry drones with 4 drone damage augumentors and insange range :P
at the cost of several hundred dps.
|
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
605
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:51:00 -
[265] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:Saul Hyperion wrote: Drop the utility high, restore the low and the Megathron is heading down the right track.
But I love the neut on my mega
So do I. I would be sad to see it go. I'm also sad to see the 5th heavy drone go. Yes, the ROF bonus means you'll get more synergy with tracking bonus from the hull, but I'll often find that DPS is better projected by my drones anyway. Plus it's iconic for the Megathron to field 5 heavy drones/sentries, not to mention that it reinforces the notion that the Gallente are the guys that wear the biggest drone hat (I'm looking at you Amarr).
I honestly think that the best thing you can do is to swap around the attack/combat tags for the Megathron and Hyperion. Then start balancing from there. I realise that the rest of the racial line ups have taken their attack ships from the (soon to be mothballed) tier 2 line, but since we're removing tiers, why should that matter?
I must admit I am sad to see the Domi lose it's Hybrid damage bonus. I'm a little more worried about the Armageddon muscling in on it's territory and more or less making it obsolete. I'm hoping the sentry changes you guys are hinting at will give a few more points the the Dominix.
Hyperion needs the 5th mid to work as an active tank platform. Not unless there's some other major changes to active armour tanking in the works as well. Extra powergrid would also be very welcome so you can actually fit with dual reps. (Well, that or reduction on PG usage of large reps) http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
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Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
60
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:54:00 -
[266] - Quote
Hello Rise,
IGÇÖd like to preface this with a word or two about myself GÇô I am a Megathron pilot, I have flown them solo and in fleets for 9 years, somewhat approaching 50% of my Career kills are in a blaster-fit Megathron flying solo in Curse between 2006-09, so I think youGÇÖll understand where IGÇÖm coming fromGǪ. On to the proposed changes:
CCP Rise wrote: Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-1) Fittings: 15750 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Fine, if this is the way you want to keep the Hyperion, then yes, the 7th low slot will help. However, I look forward to the proposals for Armour Tanking 2.0 because there is still a lot to be done. My one comment would be on the Drone bay GÇô Gallente ships as a whole should I feel have larger bays, the whole point of decoupling number and size of drones (bandwidth) from bay size was to allow Gallente ships to carry more without changing relative DPS. With that in mind, IGÇÖd say at minimum give the Hyperion +25m3 to open more options.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
60
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:54:00 -
[267] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Megathron:
Let me say it right out - 8 high, 5 mid, 6 low. With the Megathron moving into an attack role explicitly, we felt that it could really focus on its strengths as a flexible, fast, hybrid damage machine. The new slot layout opens options like dual propulsion with microwarp drive as well as microjump drive. It opens options to tank with shield or armor. It offers more ewar resilience or tackle. The sum of all of these examples is a ship that feels more like a tempest, less like a Hyperion. For us, this matches the intended personality of an attack ship, and we hope you agree.
We've also moved some of its damage from drones to the guns by switching the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus (rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need.
As one of Eve's most iconic ships, we expect you to have strong opinions here. Please share them. We're very excited about this version of the ship and hope you are too!
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
The gist is right IMO (turn it into the fast GÇÿattackGÇÖ Battleship), but the execution isnGÇÖt quite there. If you want to make the Megathron the fast, flexible ship of the line-up, donGÇÖt cripple its ability to fit a perfect balance of armour tank and damage.
Leave it as 8/4/7, drop 1 turret and up the rate of fire bonus to +7.5%. This gives it 9.6 effective turrets, as opposed to your 9.33. Keeping the -25m3 drone bandwidth change, would mean it would do slightly more DPS than currently (my stock 7-gun Ion II fit does 1230 dps; with your changes it will be doing 1228, with my proposal, 1256).
You now have a flexible platform that is still within the core Gallente armour doctrine, but has the flexibility to fit neutralizers, smartbombs, remote rep, Drone Links or a combination of giving it a clear distinction from the Hyperion.
In keeping with the GÇÿmore flexibility attack BattleshipGÇÖ up the drone bay to 150 m3. I think you can go further on the sig reduction, personally I would say 360 would be closer to the mark.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
60
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:54:00 -
[268] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
The Dominix was actually my first Battleship, around April 2004, but I never could really fall in love with the GÇÿspace potatoGÇÖ so ended up flying MegathronsGǪ
Anyhow, again I can see the direction working, but you are hamstrung on this one without a serious facelift (read: needs structural work) to the drone system, not just to sentries but to every class of drone GÇô the blind orbit mechanics need to go, or be but one option for drone GÇÿattackGÇÖ commands i.e. needs at minimum GÇÿkeep at rangeGÇÖ GÇÿstop droneGÇÖ GÇÿfollowGÇÖ. More diversity (optimal range/falloff) between racial drones would also be a good starting point.
Having seen the changes to the Armageddon I am concerned about the DominixGÇÖs future role. This is a not insignificant damage reduction and so, just as with the other two, I think more flexibility in terms of bigger drone bay is the solution (or, just donGÇÖt make the Armageddon a drone boat GÇô that is 10 years of back story and lore ripped up for the sake of giving the Amarr a drone boat) --> +75 m3 if it is going to be a one-trick drone pony.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
297
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:56:00 -
[269] - Quote
Rise the changes on all races are pretty much OK. It will shake up EVE and that is what is needed. By our nature men kind is afraid of changes so dont succumb to the crybabies. Only thing i d look into it is maybe 1 less high to mega and 1 more low. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
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Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
131
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:56:00 -
[270] - Quote
Saul Hyperion wrote:
As others have said in this post, the new Dominix bonus is pretty awesome, but it kills the utility that the Dominix currently has. I can live with this as split weapons are bad and hopefully drones get changed in the near future to fix their flaws. I maintain that drones are still to vulnerable to being killed/smartbombed and need a better HP bonus on all blaster ships.
The Vexor has split weapons and its a fantastic PvP boat. |
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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
312
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:56:00 -
[271] - Quote
Saul Hyperion wrote:I hate it. Need fitting (and cap, especially with this new RoF bonus) for other things
Does fine on cap, except under heavy neuting pressure. As far as fitting goes, you're trading 6k EHP (T2 plates) and 4km on your point to gain a heavy neut. Amazingly good trade, in my opinion. |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
606
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:04:00 -
[272] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:Saul Hyperion wrote:I hate it. Need fitting (and cap, especially with this new RoF bonus) for other things Does fine on cap, except under heavy neuting pressure. As far as fitting goes, you're trading 6k EHP (T2 plates) and 4km on your point to gain a heavy neut. Amazingly good trade, in my opinion.
I run more or less the same thing, except with T2 plates and a medium booster. Do you find the extra cap injection ability is actually useful? My fit gets about 16k more armour HP from the look of things.
Back to the topic at hand: don't touch my utility high on the Mega. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
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Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
71
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:05:00 -
[273] - Quote
Meathron - There was nothing wrong with it that a bit of pg and a hp buff wouln't fix. It didn't fit in very well with null fleets but at least it was usefull in low and for pve.
Now I don't know. +1 mid makes it a big talos with a maybe not so crappy shield tank. -1 low definitely seems to gimp it for any kinda of armor applications.
On a dual 1600 plate, mag stab + resists fit with neutrons, Maybe, you can drop the mag stab for a resist now and still deal equivalent damage while still tanking. Maybe. The drone bay nerf though ? On the race with undeniably THE worst optimal & falloff. I can perhaps choke down the 100 bandwidth , but 150 drone bay would keep it from coming back up like dead sheep head. |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:06:00 -
[274] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
/me cries
Well, looks like the Navy Vexor is not gonna change if your going this way with the Domi.
I always flew a Neut Domi so never used it's gun potential, that said removing the damage bonus for hybrids kinda sucks. Once again, just like the Navy Vexor, the key to the Domi was flexibility and the skill bonus change removes that flexibility and pigeon holes it into one role.
CCP Rise wrote:I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Bad play. If drones need a revamp (and they do) then why not hold of the skill changes for the ship until that is done? I get to lose my Hybrid damage bonus (bye bye 1300 DPS gank Domi) and I get a bonus to Sentries which is insufficient to compensate for the loss. "Sometime" in the future drones will get looked at yet meanwhile I am stuck with a knowingly under-performing ship. \0/
Vexor = AWSOME!! Navy Vexor = Blegh Domi = Potato shaped Blegh |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:09:00 -
[275] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Here's to the dominix; what was once an astounding ship is now mostly shite.
Seriously, if you want to turn the domi into a pure drone boat, the first step is to give it a way to do damage befitting a battleship with drones. The 800ish DPS tops that you're going to get out of it with gardes is terrible, and if you're not going to use it as a gun/drone hybrid then you'll be better off with the geddon.
Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed.
EDIT: I also look forward to what happens when you rebalance the ishtar, because the new domi bonuses really are better suited for it.
Good post about the Domi. |
Zaffzaff
Posthuman Society 10110001100111101000
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:14:00 -
[276] - Quote
....
You take away a mid on the hype, and tell us to active armor tank it.
Then you remove a lo and 5 heavies from the mega, chaning the rof bonus so the dps -barely- levels out, all the while gimping it ability to tank or stack dps.
And even still, you remove the utility the domi was famous for, leavig us with a brick with a weapons system that was shoddy to begin with...and make it worse?
First the myrm/brutix and now this?
Serious question to any ccp dev that's itt: WHY do you HATE the Gallente so god damn much? |
Nievisis
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:19:00 -
[277] - Quote
Hyperion - Attack Battleship
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +5 Large Hybrid falloff range
8 turrets, 5 meds, 6 lows, 100/100 drones
"one of the most lethal and versatile gunboats ever to take to the dark skies." The Hype has never lived up to...the hype. It was envisioned as a DPS machine but instead that role is held by the tracking-enhanced Mega. Encourage the use of blasters via a falloff bonus and bring the stats inline with the other Attack BS making it faster, less tanky, and more ganky: the way a blasterboat should be.
The Combat Battleships should provide the backbone of any fleet, for Gallente this means Drones, Hybrids, and Armor. Spidertanking Mega/Domi fleets provide either sniper (railgun/sentry) or brawler (blaster/ogre) options equally well. Optionally these can be refit for large fleets or all out gank and still compete against racial-alternatives. The Mega represents the 2/3rd Guns, 1/3rd Drones split while the Domi provides the inverse.
Megathron - Combat Gunship
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
8 highs(7 turrets), 4 meds, 7 lows, 125/125 drones
Providing a variety of options via the utility high the mega can function equally well in an armor-railgun gang or a blaster-fit spidertanking gatecamp. The dual-damage bonus ensures that the lack of an 8th gun won't hinder its performance. Bring the stats inline with the other high-end combat battleships (abaddon, rokh, mael) to ensure it is not numerically inferior due to tiers.
Galentte - Combat Droneboat
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +4% Armor Resist Bonus
6 highs(5 turrets), 5 meds, 7 lows 125/375 drones
Providing bonused Sentries supplemented by Hybrids the domi can dish solid dps while assisting with RR. Alternately, fit up a standard neut domi and cap-nap your way to victory. The domi's key strength has always been its flexibility which should be maintained even while unifying the damage bonuses. Because of this I suggest swapping to a resist bonus which further encourages the droneboat mantra of "tank hard and let the drones eat em." As you mention earlier, resist bonuses are highly sought after for fleets, adding one encourage the dominix's inclusion in armor-bs doctrines and may freshen up the meta.
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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
312
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:24:00 -
[278] - Quote
Grideris wrote:Adriel Malakai wrote:Saul Hyperion wrote:I hate it. Need fitting (and cap, especially with this new RoF bonus) for other things Does fine on cap, except under heavy neuting pressure. As far as fitting goes, you're trading 6k EHP (T2 plates) and 4km on your point to gain a heavy neut. Amazingly good trade, in my opinion. I run more or less the same thing, except with T2 plates and a medium booster. Do you find the extra cap injection ability is actually useful? My fit gets about 16k more armour HP from the look of things. Back to the topic at hand: don't touch my utility high on the Mega.
Depends on the situation. If there are any neuts on the field, the extra cap injection is invaluable. |
Martin0
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:29:00 -
[279] - Quote
What i think.
Frigates changes: awesome Cruiser changes: Awesome Bc changes: Why both bc have a "solo" bonus and warfare link bonus? Why the brutix can't fit ions and use its utility? Why would anone fly a myrmidon over a propecy?
Battleship changes: Hyperion: cool, the amarr bs got 33 km neuts and i have still the "solo" bonus with a cap booster LESS. If Armor repairers did use 25% less cap maybe Megathron: Won't have the ehp o be used in a fleet, won't have the range to be used in fleet. Dominix: Why would anyone fly it over the armageddon?
21 days eve-online free trial here https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=396dca45-adb9-487c-913d-fa94643491bf&action=buddy |
William Darkk
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:35:00 -
[280] - Quote
So now that there's no Gallente ship more useful for anything than another race, can I have the skillpoints I put into Gallente BS V back so I can grab Amarr BS V?
I mean christ, compare the Dominix to the Armageddon and ask which one you'd bring with you on a roam.
Ditto for the Hyperion and the Abaddon.
If I'd known in 2007 that the Amarr were the neut+drones race I'd have rolled Amarr and never looked back. |
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
580
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:35:00 -
[281] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Grendell wrote: Well let me put it another way. While statistics are all fun and dandy, they can't be used to paint an accurate picture of the situation. You can sue statistics to help, but they can't be the end all fact to push an issue in any given direction. To get a clear picture of the situation you have to follow what people are using as the norm.
You may not have the luxury as a developer to enjoy as much pvp experience as some of us players do. I personally have the luxury to be apart of a few alliances and have been for years. There has never been a single doctrine or fleet setup in any of them that included the Megathron for years. In just about every situation there is a better choice. The guys that usually fly it are the ones who can't fly the main choice, or because they just want to be in a ship they find pretty.
You asked what role we wanted for the Megathron? We want our old badass, in your face, punch swinging, beer guzzling, woman harassing, FREEDOM yelling, Pimpthron back. We don't want to be the retarde.d cousin that was brought along out of pitty.
I'm pretty sure that CCP Rise is Kil2. Feel free to go watch his PVP experience on his old Youtube channel. I may not agree with him, but do try to give him (and the rest of the CCP team) a break from the "You don't play your own game" stuff. :) -Liang
I'm not saying all the devs don't have time to dedicate to a lot of pvp. I'm saying I doubt many do. From my personal experiences with the many friends that became devs (6 in total), their play time was reduced to pathetic levels, thus taking them out of the players reality of the game. Out of the 6, not one had enough pvp playtime to actually stay in touch with the status of real pvp. Being overly reliant off statistics instead of actual player experience was the issue.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
228
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:37:00 -
[282] - Quote
Sad to see the mega changes, seems to have gone from a fun ship to fly to a very middle of the road ship. Don't think the changes will make the hyperion that useful either. Domi I'm on the fence some interesting changes but seems the geddon will now own gal at their own drone game...
Infact the more I see of these "closing the gap" changes like TE and mega, etc. the more its making me lose interest in the game. |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:40:00 -
[283] - Quote
On another note, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the idea with regards to Gallente vs. Amarr droneboats that Amarr = More bay and Gallente = More bandwidth?
Dragoon: 75m3, 25 bandwidth. Algos: 60m3, 35 bandwidth
Arbitrator: 150m3, 50 bandwidth Vexor: 125m3, 75 bandwidth
Prophecy: 225m3, 75 bandwidth Myrmidon: 200m3, 100 bandwidth
Armageddon: 375m3, 125 bandwidth Dominix: 375m3, 125 bandwidth
What happened? |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
72
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:40:00 -
[284] - Quote
Domi - The least horribad of the proposed changes but still pretty crappy.
Why da faq did the stupid Geddon get that epic super win buff and not the Domi.
It'll be better with sentries. Umm who gives a crap ? You'll be able to sentry snipe ( maybe ). Umm ya, like a Nado or Naga .
Algos - Vex Navy -> Domi. Drone MWD buff or gtfo.
Buffing the Dominix to be better with sentries doesn't mean it wont suck with Ogre's or Zerks. Nerfing the entire top rack to buff just 1 drone is BS. Either buff the whole drone bay or try harder. Cause atm this sucks rocks.
The only micro redeeming thing about any of this is that there is Noooo way in hell the Geddon goes to TQ the way it is. If it does why would anyone bother to fly a domi ?
Kill it, eat it, bury it. DO NOT DIG IT UP AND EAT IT AGAIN. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3285
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:40:00 -
[285] - Quote
William Darkk wrote:So now that there's no Gallente ship more useful for anything than another race, can I have the skillpoints I put into Gallente BS V back so I can grab Amarr BS V?
I mean christ, compare the Dominix to the Armageddon and ask which one you'd bring with you on a roam.
Ditto for the Hyperion and the Abaddon.
If I'd known in 2007 that the Amarr were the neut+drones race I'd have rolled Amarr and never looked back.
The Navy Domi is still there, and it's hard to argue with the Vindicator and Bhaalorn. Besides, there's a ton of rage and I'm sure that CCP will come to the table ready to play ball tomorrow. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Psihius
S-DNK U.C.F. Alliance
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:42:00 -
[286] - Quote
I'm having mixed feeling about Dominix. As people said - it really lacks a bonus for Drone Control Range. Also, I think either the drone damage bonus is a little weak, or Sentry drones need a small buff in damage. Building a serious drone damage boat leaves you now place or/and fitting resources for guns. While you can build a powerfull boat with almost no tank, you can't build a BS level DPS pure drone boat. |
Veng3ance
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:43:00 -
[287] - Quote
Love the changes overall.
My hope is you keep the Navy Dominix bonuses the same so people who enjoy the versatility of the Dominix today can still use the Navy domi for those purposes. |
Ra1ne
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:48:00 -
[288] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-1)
you want to help armor tanking yet you remove a mid slot. Dual rep tank and single cap injector is a recipe for fail and with blasters you want that web so you will need to make a decision to risk cap stability or go with a scram and no web.
not a fan of this change at all.
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Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:50:00 -
[289] - Quote
William Darkk wrote:So now that there's no Gallente ship more useful for anything than another race, can I have the skillpoints I put into Gallente BS V back so I can grab Amarr BS V?
I mean christ, compare the Dominix to the Armageddon and ask which one you'd bring with you on a roam.
Ditto for the Hyperion and the Abaddon.
If I'd known in 2007 that the Amarr were the neut+drones race I'd have rolled Amarr and never looked back.
Seriously. Every Amarr ship is now a quantifiably superior version of its Gallente counterpart; the Armageddon is what the Dominix ought to be, the Apocalypse gets a double bonus (range + tracking) that might have made the Megathron viable, and of course the Hyperion is still completely overshadowed by anything with a passive resist bonus.
I am cautiously interested in the Megathron changes taken by themselves, out of context, but I can't imagine flying it over a pulse Apoc (if armor fit) or a Talos (if shield fit.) |
Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:04:00 -
[290] - Quote
Catlos JeminJees wrote:the Hyperion is like a starving 3rd world kid and you gave it some shoes instead of food.. for shame That reminds me of some Christians who made a visit to a third world country. Instead of giving them what they need, they gave them bibles. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
|
krickettt
Eviscerate.
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:05:00 -
[291] - Quote
Have you considered doing a 7/5/7 layout with the Megathron? Maybe increase it's damage bonus to account for a lost turret.
Do something similar along the lines with the Hyperion. |
Krynn Fennir
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:05:00 -
[292] - Quote
The proposed changes to Gallente battleships are terrible in almost every way.
The only change the Megathron needed is more speed/acceleration so it could get it's DPS on target sooner.
The Dominix ship bonus change is horrible. In it's current state it can send good DPS while using neuts or remote reps, or it is capable of excellent DPS as a blaster platform. Also, the only thing the new bonus will do is make it viable as a sniper with a large buffer with the ability to tackle and kill (with small/med drones) anything that gets close.
The Hyperion... well it's been broken, may not be fixable.
I realize you guys are working hard to give all ships a purpose and place within EVE, but changes like list leave me wondering if you even play the game. Leave the Domi alone, give the Mega more speed, and do what you like with the Hyperion... pretty sure it will still be simply a station game/bait "role". |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
132
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:08:00 -
[293] - Quote
Nievisis wrote: [b]Galentte - Combat Droneboat
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +4% Armor Resist Bonus
6 highs(5 turrets), 5 meds, 7 lows 125/375 drones
Providing bonused Sentries supplemented by Hybrids the domi can dish solid dps while assisting with RR. Alternately, fit up a standard neut domi and cap-nap your way to victory. The domi's key strength has always been its flexibility which should be maintained even while unifying the damage bonuses. Because of this I suggest swapping to a resist bonus which further encourages the droneboat mantra of "tank hard and let the drones eat em." As you mention earlier, resist bonuses are highly sought after for fleets, adding one encourage the dominix's inclusion in armor-bs doctrines and may freshen up the meta.
You know, this idea is actually pretty good. Obviously CCP didn't even blink an eye giving the APOC a Gallente bonus (tracking) so why not return the favor? I mean really giving the APOC best range with scorch & tracking....crazy. Giving the Domi the resist bonus would make it a interesting choice and a better fit for the whole RR Domi thing and better for fleets.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1228
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:11:00 -
[294] - Quote
w.r.t loss of Dominix turret damage bonus... kind of glad to see wasted bonus go away. How many people actually used 6 large blasters on the Domi? Most of the fits I've seen are neuts, drone link augmentors, remote reps, or even heavy neutron blasters so that it could be active rep fit. Otherwise, it was four electron blaster Cannon II's and two neuts. Only the last fit will be affected, and not that much.
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3333
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:11:00 -
[295] - Quote
What about the idea of giving the Dominix a +1 to drones launched instead of the optimal range and tracking bonus. Then remove a couple turret slots and add more drone bay?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:12:00 -
[296] - Quote
So you still ignored the fact that the Dominix's one real issue is the complete lack of powergrid compared to the other 2 ships.
How do having like 6000 less power then the other 2 make any sense. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1228
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:12:00 -
[297] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:You know, this idea is actually pretty good. Armor resist bonus is for Amarr. Non-starter. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
80
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:14:00 -
[298] - Quote
Hyperion:
I suggest: 6 turrets %12.5 per level damage bonus (9.75 effective turrets instead of 10, less cap/ammo consumption) Have the armor rep bonus work for remote armor reps too.
This way it can have its role as spider BS for smaller gangs. Even if no spider, two utility highs would add very nice value to the ship. Mael could use the same treatment too by the way.
Also since the armor tanking 1.5 patch, the reps on Hyperion are requiring more PG. I know LAR PG costs were reduced, but with 3 rigs to get max performance out of reps, the PG need increase becomes a heavy burden on hype's already low grid. Could use a decent PG boost.
Mega:
Mega was already struggling with CPU and it has a new medslot. The +25 CPU is not enough. Should be slighly higher. New layout will make some interresting fits possible.....I'm excited about this one.
Domi:
Haters gonna hate, but I like the new bonus. 600 dps to 200km is possible. The tracking bonus will also help to gardes. It is great
|
Capn Jack
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:17:00 -
[299] - Quote
Bye bye Dominix, you went from awesome to decent with the old NOS changes, you went from decent to underpar with the NPC Rat AI changes, but now... you're just crap!
And seriously... same drone bay as Amarr what drunken stupor made you come up with this? |
Baldyface Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:17:00 -
[300] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Mariner6 wrote:You know, this idea is actually pretty good. Armor resist bonus is for Amarr. Non-starter. Yeah and drones are a Gallente thing... |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1228
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:21:00 -
[301] - Quote
Baldyface Akiga wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Mariner6 wrote:You know, this idea is actually pretty good. Armor resist bonus is for Amarr. Non-starter. Yeah and drones are a Gallente thing... Not going to argue, just saying that it's a non-starter. Almost like trying to get CCP to expand armor repping bonus to "remote reps received" as well. Non-starter..
, or depending on how you look at it... |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1113
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:22:00 -
[302] - Quote
Heavy drones mentioned with the Dominix.
I am concerned that CCP still seem to think anyone really uses them. This is not a signature. |
Major Killz
172
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:22:00 -
[303] - Quote
Megathron proposed changes.
Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x4
970 damage per second. 130, 000 effective hit-point. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1113
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:24:00 -
[304] - Quote
Veng3ance wrote:Love the changes overall.
My hope is you keep the Navy Dominix bonuses the same so people who enjoy the versatility of the Dominix today can still use the Navy domi for those purposes.
^^^ for me as well really. This is not a signature. |
Tradik
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:25:00 -
[305] - Quote
I hope you realize this is essentially guaranteeing that no gallente battleship will ever be used a mainline fleet BS (boot dominixes don't count - they're hybrids). With this change their options are now either a badly bonused ship, or one with crappyy slot layouts. As opposed to before when they had one almost decent ship, and one with crappy slot layouts and bad bonuses.
So basically you've taken one really bad ship, one decent ship, and made two bad ships. Congratulations!
Oh, I expect you'll see some more station game megathrons. Possibly even a lot more Fed Navy Megas, if the changes carry over, but as a fleet BS race, gallente is completely dead. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1279
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:26:00 -
[306] - Quote
Raven Solaris wrote:On another note, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the idea with regards to Gallente vs. Amarr droneboats that Amarr = More bay and Gallente = More bandwidth?
Dragoon: 75m3, 25 bandwidth. Algos: 60m3, 35 bandwidth
Arbitrator: 150m3, 50 bandwidth Vexor: 125m3, 75 bandwidth
Prophecy: 225m3, 75 bandwidth Myrmidon: 200m3, 100 bandwidth
Armageddon: 375m3, 125 bandwidth Dominix: 375m3, 125 bandwidth
What happened?
This is my main beef. Gallente drone boats get the bandwidth to field heavier drones, but not the capacity to field adequate spares. As a result you end up playing the recall, re-deploy game constantly since drones are still wicked easy to kill. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
229
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:28:00 -
[307] - Quote
I think the drone changes to the geddon and domi are potentially very good - don't forget that as the domi is no longer hybrid weapon focused you can use a high slot better to extent drone control range, etc. I think the main problem is they don't seem to have sat down and looked at the geddon and domi side by side in isolation post change. I think a little further work on those 2 could make for some new and exciting changes coming from it (and less of a clash).
Almost tempted to suggest dropping one high on the domi and giving it an extra mid or low to futher boost its ability to use drones.
There are going to be some upset people I'd imagine tho who use RR domis for certain WH class PVE but with a bit of rejigging I think they can probably still work effectively there if not better with the sentry drone changes.
Megathron changes tho are just a big NO from me. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:28:00 -
[308] - Quote
Pretty sure all of these proposed Gallente BS changes should be deleted and re-worked by other members that ACTUALLY play their game rather than rely on metrics that have almost no real world applications. I'm also pretty sure that Kil2 is not up for the task of taking the lead on balancing anything at this point. Not trying to be mean or anything bro, but damn, you've managed to fail pretty hard pretty damn fast.
|
Major Killz
173
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:28:00 -
[309] - Quote
Megathron proposed changes. Solo/Active, 800 damage per second.
Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Ogre II x4
- killz |
DR BiCarbonate
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
61
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:29:00 -
[310] - Quote
bwahahahhahahahah aha ha ahhaah ahhhhhhhhhh bwahahahahahahahahha
who the **** would fly domi over the geddon now, worthless.
to think i was excited that kil2 got hired by ccp becase you actually played the game. are these actually your changes? what the **** was the point of hiring you?
these changed are bad and you should feel ******* bad.
please quit, thx. |
|
Kithian Hastos
EVE University Ivy League
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:31:00 -
[311] - Quote
Awesome! Love the idea of turning the Dominix fully into a pure drone boat. I wish the same had been done to the Vexor in the cruiser pass!
For someone who has always wanted to keep neuts or reps in my highs, but felt gimped because of the blaster bonus, this is a welcome change. |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
199
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:32:00 -
[312] - Quote
I am struggling to find any good points in what you have done here... I really am. Point by point:
Hyperion: 8/4/7 does at least give it an extra low. However, since you didn't add any powergrid or to it, you are still going to be struggling to actually fit an active tank to it. Then too, it now can't use the dual cap booster setup without someone else around to tackle for you... and if you have more than about 2 people in fleet you would be better off having someone in a logi to rep you anyways, due to how horribad active armor tanking is on large ships. Active shield tanking works because you can use oversized reps on undersized hulls - see XLASB cyclone if you need an example. Until you can manage something equivalent to that with armor tanking, it isn't going to make a comeback, no matter how hard you try.
Additionally, blasters have short enough range that you aren't going to see buffer blaster hyperions like you do pulse abaddons because they don't have enough range - and the only environment that you might see them (WH's) won't use them due to mass restrictions anyways. As for rail fits... they will be less mobile than rohks, and the rohks range bonus means that they can use antimatter out to more effective ranges anyways. And there is a reason why "sniping" nowadays is done by attack battlecruisers, not battleships.
Go back to the drawing board, and try to come up with actual, viable uses for this ship that are more than just fringe cases.
Megathron: You just swapped the slot layout with the hyperion. You are an idiot. One of the big reasons why the hyperion was so bad was BECAUSE OF ITS SLOT LAYOUT! You seem to be under the assumption that a 5/6 slot layout will work for armor tanking. Let me inform you - it won't. The only way that this will see use is as a shield tanked ship... not as armor tanked. If you want armor tanking to actually be viable on it, drop that "utility highslot", which it doesn't have the pg to fit anything in anyways for a midslot, instead of taking away one of its lowslots. A 7/5/7 slot layout megathron may actually see some use. Also... why the hell did you take away 25mbit bandwith? That just seems rather arbitrary... and this is the damn drone race too. Give it the phoons bay - 125 bandwith/175 capacity. What exactly you expect people to do with only 100mbit bandwith is beyond me - aside from just being capricious.
Domi: Well... the domi needed some love anyways. At the moment though I'm struggling to see any use for this instead of the new geddon. The geddon gets missiles, can use neuts more effectively, can armor tank just as well, and they both do the same drone damage with the same drone bay. Also... give both of those ships their missing slot back. Despite what seems to be going through your heads, having extra drone bay is NOT worth loosing an extra slot - unless of course you are revamping drones to not be ******** pieces of junk with a UI out of the 90's that is.
Sorry if this seems a little hostile, but, seriously - these changes will NOT see gallente battleships used more.
-Arazel |
Major Killz
173
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:34:00 -
[313] - Quote
Megathron proposed changes. Solo/shield...
Internal Force Field Array I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Warrior II x5
- killz |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1228
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:37:00 -
[314] - Quote
Dominix(6/5/7): Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Armageddon(7/4/7): Fittings: 14500 PWG(-2000), 550 CPU(+65)
One large turret difference. PWG difference: 5,500 Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator: 2000 PWG.
Remaining PWG: 3,500
WTF??? In the words of Chris Carter... "Come on man!" |
Zircon Dasher
189
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:37:00 -
[315] - Quote
Not particularly surprised given the rumor mill about all the changes coming down the pipe but....
It still makes me :sad:
Welp. Glad I have all 4 races BS trained. Here is to hoping that the other changes carve out some space for Gal BS to be useful.
Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
229
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:39:00 -
[316] - Quote
Arazel Chainfire wrote: Megathron: You just swapped the slot layout with the hyperion. You are an idiot. One of the big reasons why the hyperion was so bad was BECAUSE OF ITS SLOT LAYOUT! You seem to be under the assumption that a 5/6 slot layout will work for armor tanking. Let me inform you - it won't. The only way that this will see use is as a shield tanked ship... not as armor tanked. If you want armor tanking to actually be viable on it, drop that "utility highslot", which it doesn't have the pg to fit anything in anyways for a midslot, instead of taking away one of its lowslots. A 7/5/7 slot layout megathron may actually see some use. Also... why the hell did you take away 25mbit bandwith? That just seems rather arbitrary... and this is the damn drone race too. Give it the phoons bay - 125 bandwith/175 capacity. What exactly you expect people to do with only 100mbit bandwith is beyond me - aside from just being capricious.
Even less useful than the hype in that config tho which is kinda lol - granted doesn't suffer quite as bad armor wise in some ways an interesting change but as a replacement for the mega... its a joke.
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Hyperion:
Go back to the drawing board, and try to come up with actual, viable uses for this ship that are more than just fringe cases.
Pretty much all you needed to say there :P |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
132
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:39:00 -
[317] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Baldyface Akiga wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Mariner6 wrote:You know, this idea is actually pretty good. Armor resist bonus is for Amarr. Non-starter. Yeah and drones are a Gallente thing... Not going to argue, just saying that it's a non-starter. Almost like trying to get CCP to expand armor repping bonus to "remote reps received" as well. Non-starter.. , or depending on how you look at it...
I would have thought it a non starter too until I saw that tracking bonus on the APOC....ridiculous |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:42:00 -
[318] - Quote
DR BiCarbonate wrote:bwahahahhahahahah aha ha ahhaah ahhhhhhhhhh bwahahahahahahahahha
who the **** would fly domi over the geddon now, worthless.
to think i was excited that kil2 got hired by ccp becase you actually played the game. are these actually your changes? what the **** was the point of hiring you?
these changed are bad and you should feel ******* bad.
please quit, thx.
I lolled, so harsh but so damn true.
At this point it seems that anyone with even the slightest intellectual capacity is in agreement with you.
Kil2 should just go back to using OP ships and pretending hes good. The only people that liked his streams were baddies anyway.
|
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
132
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:43:00 -
[319] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Megathron proposed changes. Solo/shield...
Internal Force Field Array I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Warrior II x5
- killz
2 fitting mods just to make that work and not even a DCU II. No thanks. I'll fly a Talos and outperform that.
|
Izi55IzI
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:44:00 -
[320] - Quote
Seriously first take a gallente bs out and get some fights with them and then try to write a half decent change proposal. I dunno who came up with those changes, but he needs either to be sent to drug rehab or asylum, because this is beyond terrible.
Why can't you look at each ship individually and not as a part of a blob? People still fly small gang/solo and I for one don't care how your sniper domi/shield mega/?hype fit into your grand 0.0 blob design.
Furthermore what I hate the most is constant dumbification of EVE, what's next not being able to undock if not fitted to CCP standard or buying fitted ships from market?
Lose the tier concept all together, ballance ships individually, stop assigning new terrible roles to classic battleships. fire the people responsible, leave EVE the sandbox it is.
|
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:45:00 -
[321] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Megathron proposed changes. Solo/shield...
Internal Force Field Array I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Warrior II x5
- killz
Bad fit is bad, try again. Oh, you're also bad.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:46:00 -
[322] - Quote
So I guess now the Megathron gets to join the Hyperion on the shelf titled "Pretty ships with no practical purpose due to terrible slot layout". TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:48:00 -
[323] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:So I guess now the Megathron gets to join the Hyperion on the shelf titled "Pretty ships with no practical purpose due to terrible slot layout".
Hyperion was never pretty, it's got a 4 leaf clover engine thingy attached to a giant double sided butt plug. Take a look at some of the "modded" concept art that people have put out for the hyperion over the last couple years.
|
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:49:00 -
[324] - Quote
Like many others, I am disappointed with the proposed Domi changes. The advantage of the Domi was always versatility. It was never the best at anything, but it could do almost anything - brawl, gank, tank, logi, neut, etc. It was a fantastic jack-of-all-trades ship.
Removing the damage option reduces it's versatility. It can't gank, and it's brawling ability is reduced. Which seems like a damn odd choice for a ship designated as "Combat BS". Furthermore, it's vastly over-shadowed as a neut boat by the incredibly awesome Geddon. So it's effectively lost that versatility as well.
So it's pretty much just gonna be left with what? Sentry Sniper, Kessah Domi, and 2007 RR Domi? Not alot of options there.
And now it is completely reliant on a destroyable dps source. Which is a terrible terrible choice.
EDIT - Maybe keep the hybrid bonus, increase the damage bonus slightly, reduce the number of turrets, and move a hi-slot (or two) to the mids/lows so that people can make it into the sentry boat you envision via modules? |
Major Killz
173
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:49:00 -
[325] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Major Killz wrote:Megathron proposed changes. Solo/shield...
Internal Force Field Array I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Warrior II x5
- killz 2 fitting mods just to make that work and not even a DCU II. No thanks. I'll fly a Talos and outperform that.
Indeed. However I think that setup would change in a fleet with logistics. In fact you do not need to use a ASB and you'll be very fast and have the EHP of 2 Talos v0v. Less damage though. Unless a neut counts for anything? Still it is an option
- killz |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
814
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:50:00 -
[326] - Quote
Odyssey Dominix, Test wrote:
6x 350mm Railgun II (Spike L) (116000m Optimum Range)
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400) EM Ward Field II 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 100MN Afterburner II
3x Drone Damage Amplifier II 2x Tracking Enhancer II (Post Nerf Stats) Damage Control II Co-Processor II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
5x Warden II (112500m Optimum Range)
730 DPS out to about 110km This Ships lacks drone control range, it needs another 60K to be useful, that is this ships only down fall. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1144
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:50:00 -
[327] - Quote
Incursus - Impressively Fast. Active rep bonus. Brutix - Very fast. Active rep bonus. Hyperion - Floating Brick. Active rep bonus.
Wut?
Make the Hyperion 7-5-7. Give it a 10% damage bonus. Make the damn thing go fast. Shake n' Bake. This by it's nature should be the Assault BS.
The Mega used to be favored for tracking, damage and rails. It would be the obvious choice for fleets if it were fixed. |
Major Killz
173
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:52:00 -
[328] - Quote
There is much upset in alot of these battleship threads. I fear this may be another EVEGATE = / Ha ha ha ha. Soon players will start threating to unsubscribe for a month or two. BTW I am fairly sure these changes are being done by 1 "TEAM" and not CCP as a whole. So if you want to get that team FIRED give it your BEST SHOT
- killz |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
229
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:52:00 -
[329] - Quote
Izi55IzI wrote:
Furthermore what I hate the most is constant dumbification of EVE, what's next not being able to undock if not fitted to CCP standard or buying fitted ships from market?
Lose the tier concept all together, ballance ships individually, stop assigning new terrible roles to classic battleships. fire the people responsible, leave EVE the sandbox it is.
You've hit the nail on the head there for something I couldn't quite put my finger on - I've always hated cookie cutter fits and games where if your not playing using 1-2 specific fits your irrelevant - one of the things that drew me to eve was that you could mix things up a bit and people were constantly coming up with out the box fleet doctrines that worked. The reason why many of the changes/proposed changes recently (and there have been some great changes don't get me wrong) is that some of these changes are going down the road towards very stock fits and doctrines, closing the gap towards the middle and towards that point where you might as well just buy a prefitted standard ship off the market. (I'm still not putting it very well but still). |
hmmv50cal
SkyLoc Inc. Axiomatic Dominion
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:54:00 -
[330] - Quote
That math is wrong, CCP. 50% faster ROF does not double times fired in a period of time, a 100% ROF bonus would do that. 50% isn't doubling something (2x), it's a 1.5x multiplier. Thus, the argument of "lel twice as many shots in same time!" is actually 1.5 times as many shots in given unit of time, and, obviously, not twice the damage. Your explanation is completely flawed. I thought you guys were programmers?? |
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:54:00 -
[331] - Quote
The problem with an X/5/6 slot layout is that it forces a ship to choose between a bad armor tank and a bad shield tank.
There is a reason no one flew the Hyperion before, and it wasn't the rep bonus alone. 7 slots is roughly the minimum to field a respectable armor tank on a battleship. If anything, drop the utility high and give the mega its 7 lows back. Hell, 7/4/8 would be downright mean, but I have a feeling you're deadset on making the mega into a weak shield tanker.
Honestly, the massive loss in buffer is not even remotely worth 7m/s. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
X415
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:56:00 -
[332] - Quote
Should have trained Amarr all those years ago instead of wasting my time with Gallente. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 21:57:00 -
[333] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Incursus - Impressively Fast. Active rep bonus. Brutix - Very fast. Active rep bonus. Hyperion - Floating Brick. Active rep bonus.
Wut?
Make the Hyperion 7-5-7. Give it a 10% damage bonus. Make the damn thing go fast. Shake n' Bake. This by it's nature should be the Assault BS.
The Mega used to be favored for tracking, damage and rails. It would be the obvious choice for fleets if it were fixed.
Meh, Hyperion will be just dandy with slightly more grid, 7-5-7 slot layout, and 125m3 drone bay. 10% dmg per level with 7 turrets combined with a 7-5-7 slot layout is rather over the top.
As for the mega? 8-4-7 was perfectly fine. If changing something MUST happen, drop it to 100m3 drone bay as proposed and give it a rof bonus instead of dmg bonus also as proposed.
I swear to ******* god that I can come up with better changes to these ships in 10 minutes than an entire failboat eve balance team can in months. The problem arises from the fact this team uses statistics as their primary source of information rather than real in game knowledge. Just another case of bad devs ******* up a good game.
|
Iva Soreass
United System's Commonwealth R.E.P.O.
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:03:00 -
[334] - Quote
RIP mega
So your taking the brawling DPS mega, removing its low slot (where it gets its dps and tank from) and giving it a mid for ?!?!?!
You can't be serious ? Tell me this is some kind or late april fools or something. |
Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
128
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:08:00 -
[335] - Quote
holy ******* crap
my god
LOL
hyperion - will never fly this ship again. removing a mid on an already massively under-utilized ship lol. it was ok for solo before, but bad for fleet pvp. now its just bad at everything lol even with the abadon nerf, an abadon is still massively better then this for fleet.
dominix - you're kidding right? have you even looked at how good the domi is now lol? this is hilariously imbalanced but I guess you really want to see domi's being used.
megathron - this just went from crap to even more crap? why would i feel even remotely interested in flying this bag of crap? i don't even understand what you're trying to do with these changes but this just makes it good at nothing. :confusion: It can fit neither a good shield or armor tank. If you want to shield tank it, I'll fit a talos. If you want to armor tank it, well screw that I'll just fly a domi with these changes.
These changes are just really, really bad. They don't even make sense unless you want everyone flying domi's for gallente? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:10:00 -
[336] - Quote
hmmv50cal wrote:That math is wrong, CCP. 50% faster ROF does not double times fired in a period of time, a 100% ROF bonus would do that. 50% isn't doubling something (2x), it's a 1.5x multiplier. Thus, the argument of "lel twice as many shots in same time!" is actually 1.5 times as many shots in given unit of time, and, obviously, not twice the damage. Your explanation is completely flawed. I thought you guys were programmers?? CCP's ROF bonuses are not applied like that. ROF bonuses are actually a reduction to cycle time, thus a 50% ROF bonus means 50% cycle time and 2x the shots fired. |
Celestial One
Militant Miners
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:11:00 -
[337] - Quote
fukier wrote:im not sure the domi needs all those high slots...
imo i would prefer you move a high to a mid
so this is what i would like to see
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 7L; 5 turrets (-1) , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I like this idea, I always seem to have an extra high and want another mid on my domi |
Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:12:00 -
[338] - Quote
It looks like I'll be plating the hyperion. I don't have enough faith in armor repairers. It'll also eliminate the need for two cap boosters and should free up powergrid to fit neutron blasters.
I don't like sentry drones. I'll use the armageddon instead of the dominix since I think it has a better second bonus.
I don't know what I'd use the megathron for. Perhaps as an ECCM plated platform. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5864
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:16:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Megathron:
Let me say it right out - 8 high, 5 mid, 6 low. With the Megathron moving into an attack role explicitly, we felt that it could really focus on its strengths as a flexible, fast, hybrid damage machine. The new slot layout opens options like dual propulsion with microwarp drive as well as microjump drive. It opens options to tank with shield or armor. It offers more ewar resilience or tackle. The sum of all of these examples is a ship that feels more like a tempest, less like a Hyperion. For us, this matches the intended personality of an attack ship, and we hope you agree.
We've also moved some of its damage from drones to the guns by switching the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus (rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need.
As one of Eve's most iconic ships, we expect you to have strong opinions here. Please share them. We're very excited about this version of the ship and hope you are too!
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Slightly faster, nimble, bit more tank when in shield roams, more DPS via numbers and a bit more cap and fitting room. The loss of those launchers is no worry nor is the loss of a heavy drone. Tank looks fine. Overall I like it. I can still do what I do now plus get some new tricks out of it. If anything, its even better suited for me.
Have you been watching me? |
Alayna Le'line
National Liberation Force Nomads.
79
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:19:00 -
[340] - Quote
If the "rebalance" intention was to destroy pretty much the entire BC+ Gallente drone lineup I dare say: mission accomplished.
Dominix is useless as a sniper, being able to fit more unbonused guns (due to being able to drop a DDA or two) makes **** all difference in PvE (I more often than not don't use the guns on my Domi in L4s) and if you need neuts you just grab a Geddon, same damage bonuses for drones anyway. |
|
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:21:00 -
[341] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:Cambarus wrote:Here's to the dominix; what was once an astounding ship is now mostly shite.
Seriously, if you want to turn the domi into a pure drone boat, the first step is to give it a way to do damage befitting a battleship with drones. The 800ish DPS tops that you're going to get out of it with gardes is terrible, and if you're not going to use it as a gun/drone hybrid then you'll be better off with the geddon.
Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed.
EDIT: I also look forward to what happens when you rebalance the ishtar, because the new domi bonuses really are better suited for it. Good post about the Domi.
THIS is an exciting idea.
I've seen the fits and read the numbers and understand why this ship's DPS is being nerfed... but really just posting the new stats and glibly saying "we hope you are excited about the changes!" is not good form. Follow up posts by CCP Rise have amounted to, "well there it is, but you can still fit magstabs..."
I have to admit I had more than one urge to ragepost but figured it would be bad form for my first post. I am really hoping you are indeed taking great suggestions like the one above into real consideration after the first pass as you have stated.
Cambarus' suggestion satisfies all of these goals:
+ retains the Gallente's indentity of excelling at drones + will not require undoing the work put into Amarr balancing + *** gives the Dominix a reason for existing *** -.-
To be fair, I haven't run the numbers but if Cambarus' suggested bonuses still leave the Domi with too much dps, I'd be willing to bet most Gallente pilots would be willing to lose a turret slot or two for this change (especially since they would no longer be bonused). In replacing the drone damage bonus, I believe the drone hp bonus would likely need to remain lest the ships entire offensive capability be taken away with the slightest shift in wind.
CCP please give this idea a serious look! |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:22:00 -
[342] - Quote
I must say, you guys do have a theatrical flair.
Look its 10pm and I'm trying to keep caught up on this, but I promise tomorrow we will go back through this Gal lineup and see if we can resolve some of the frustration.
I know I tried to lay out our intentions in the OP, but I want to lay it out again, just to make sure we're on the same page. I understand that many of you here aren't satisfied so we'll go back over it tomorrow and look at our options. In the mean time maybe this will help.
In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.
In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).
The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.
I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.
I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
|
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
550
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:26:00 -
[343] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab)
Thats a pretty standard armor tank on everything.
Also giving the hyp a utility high and 10% damage bonus solves the problem in how you feel about it. It gains a half gun in damage, gains some cap stability and gives it a utility slot |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
440
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:27:00 -
[344] - Quote
What would happen if: You swapped the rolls of the mega and hyperion?
I know the Art dept would never let you get away with a 7 high slot hyperion so...
Megathron 7/5/7 Becomes the tanky in your face brawler.
Hyperion 8/4/7 Gets tracking bonus, becomes the fleet ship or agile generic dps machine
Domi 6/6/7 Gets the right number of slots, trading dps for more versatility Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1229
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:31:00 -
[345] - Quote
Please do a side-by-side comparison between the Dominix and Armageddon as well. |
Budrick3
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:34:00 -
[346] - Quote
Quote:Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-1) Fittings: 15750 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
How the hell is the Hyperion supposed to be an active tanker when you remove a mid slot? What logic was involved in this....
Hyperion = Blaster boat. Means that it needs to close distance fast, which requires a MWD, then placing web / scram on a target. Those are 3 required slots for 99% of galente ships. Now the fact that this ship is an active tanker, it requires cap boosters. 1 Cap booster is not going to cut it on a 8 turret, active tanking ship. What genius thought that was a good idea? Not to mention this ship is god awful at tracking so even when it does close the distance, it cant hit crap. In addition to that, for some reason the megathron can fit a full set of heavy dones, but the third tier class battleship is not able to, and costs quite a bit more.
Seems like CCP is trying to change things just to change things. Fail. Don't mess with the Gallente ships at all except the hyperion. Fix the tracking or something. Holy crap, there just gonna ruin Gallente bs.
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:35:00 -
[347] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I must say, you guys do have a theatrical flair.
Look its 10pm and I'm trying to keep caught up on this, but I promise tomorrow we will go back through this Gal lineup and see if we can resolve some of the frustration.
I know I tried to lay out our intentions in the OP, but I want to lay it out again, just to make sure we're on the same page. I understand that many of you here aren't satisfied so we'll go back over it tomorrow and look at our options. In the mean time maybe this will help.
In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.
In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).
The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.
I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.
I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k.
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche.
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:35:00 -
[348] - Quote
Fastest growing thread in a while. Luckily I was at work otherwise my initial reaction would probably have been
Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
For me the battleships are falling into three roles: -
Combat - fleet platform ship Combat - alternate weapon/utility/e-war ship Attack Battleship - Faster more appropriate for Solo Small gang
Mega would make a better fleet/combat battleship platform, the rate of fire bonus and the reduced drone bandwidth trade makes this a better fleet platform but still does not have more equivalent turrets than the Talos. Even with six lows and lower EHP it may still be a better fleet platform than the Hype. Personally I would up the EHP, slow it down and give it a 10% damage bonus and drop the drones back even further, keep the seven lows it makes for good buffer tank although I do not hate the 5 mids as the TE nerf makes room for TC more important.
Dominix probably just needed extra fittings and EHP, I do like the bonus change but may have saved that for the Navy version, as long as one version keeps the Hybrid damage bonus I do not mind too much but think keeping the damage bonus on the regular domi would have allowed for better balance between it and a Navy version that was able to fit Larger guns but with less bonus due to better fittings. Sentry Drones are pretty good but not great for fleets unless you have big plans.
Why the Hype should be the Attack Battleship
Feels like attack battleships are for more mobile solo/small gang applications. Active Armour is now faster than buffer tanking with the rig changes Active Armour is only viable in Solo small gang situations The EHP can be reduced as per the Attack Battleship stats but active tank can keep it brawling.
The fix
Armour tanking 1.5 improved things a great deal and the resist nerf on the Amarr ship starts to differentiate the two.
As you already state 5 mids are useful for attack battleships especially blaster platforms as it allows for these mids: -
[Hyperion, LAAR + Plate] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Reactive Armor Hardener Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Internal Force Field Array I 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Large Micro Jump Drive
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Valkyrie II x5
The fit in my hanger, it doesnGÇÖt get out much but that is more due to the lack of large plexes and the cost and vulnerability of this ship it does have decent tank, buffer, DPS and uses all bonuses.
The five mids are also important for any fit variation for multiple reps where two cap boosters are required especially to counteract any kind of neuting pressure.
Hype needs some engagement flexibility so increase the drone bay to allow for further flights of drones. This becomes even more important if you keep the slot configuration as proposed as it is likely that tackle that will be sacrificed.
Glad you are listening and really hope some more updates are planned.
|
Traxle
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:35:00 -
[349] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:[quote=Cambarus]
Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed.
I'd definitely love to see a domi that can field more drones and lose a High slot for it. You could easily balance the dps by adding or removing the number of drones it can field. I would like to see the drone bay size increase though if all of our dps is coming from drones though, even with the current changes, I still think it would need a bigger bay. There's also the issue with drones being easily taken out by bombs or Npcs, but that'll hopefully be taken care of in other discussions. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
814
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:39:00 -
[350] - Quote
edit: not enough sleep yet, im a DA with this post. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:40:00 -
[351] - Quote
Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal. |
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Gaara's sniper
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:41:00 -
[352] - Quote
multibox fleet of logi-dominixes, here i come! |
baltec1
Bat Country
5866
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:41:00 -
[353] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
My mega is fast enough right now to take part in cruiser gangs. With these changes it will be a great roaming BS yet also able to fill roles in larger fleets. |
Tiedra Fortescue
Say Gurl
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:42:00 -
[354] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:What would happen if: You swapped the rolls of the mega and hyperion?
I know the Art dept would never let you get away with a 7 high slot hyperion so...
Megathron 7/5/7 Becomes the tanky in your face brawler.
Hyperion 8/4/7 Gets tracking bonus, becomes the fleet ship or agile generic dps machine
Domi 6/6/7 Gets the right number of slots, trading dps for more versatility
This sounds like reasonable setup and also ditch the ROF bonus on the Mega, unless you plan to boost cap recharge on it.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
814
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:45:00 -
[355] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
Unless the Domninx get something it will be unused as a drone ship as the geddon out performs it. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Desra Mascani
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:46:00 -
[356] - Quote
Oh nooooo! What are you doing to my beloved Megathron. Go die in a hole all you shield fags. |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
581
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:46:00 -
[357] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported.
Hit and run heavy tackler that can't get to it's target because it's a slow cow.
|
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:47:00 -
[358] - Quote
Quote:Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche.
I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why.
First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade.
And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important.
As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
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Traxle
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:48:00 -
[359] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Moving Sentries
I completely agree! It would be nice if they were permanently orbiting our ship, unable to leave that flight pattern but still hit stuff. I'm not sure what the tracking ramifications of that would be though.
or perhaps only allow them to move when they are recalled to the ship. Either way, big Plus for me on that |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
440
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:49:00 -
[360] - Quote
Tiedra Fortescue wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:What would happen if: You swapped the rolls of the mega and hyperion?
I know the Art dept would never let you get away with a 7 high slot hyperion so...
Megathron 7/5/7 Becomes the tanky in your face brawler.
Hyperion 8/4/7 Gets tracking bonus, becomes the fleet ship or agile generic dps machine
Domi 6/6/7 Gets the right number of slots, trading dps for more versatility This sounds like reasonable setup and also ditch the ROF bonus on the Mega, unless you plan to boost cap recharge on it. Well, the Mega would get the active tanking bonus, hyperion tracking bonus........(or the active tanking bonus could diaf because of neuts online)
I think the irony is that they've given the Geddon perfect bonuses (even if fittings and such won't allow more than a compromised fit) for the way everyone flew the Domi.... And yet they insist on shoving active tanking bonuses down our throats when resists are still better (even at 4%) - It' madding. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
581
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:49:00 -
[361] - Quote
Personally I think it would be worth looking into a Megathrons ability to get to the target so it can apply it's DPS, and keep them there. So perhaps some sort of speed/agility boost topped off with a boost to scram range and web effectiveness. Give the ship that, and IMO it will get it's old classic in your face brawler status.
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fukier
893
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:50:00 -
[362] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:good point
still wish the mega had a falloff bonus instead of a tracking...
50% more fall off on a mega with neutrons and null be be sick. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
842
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:50:00 -
[363] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Those bonuses are a little lackluster, how about combining the two and adding a control range bonus like the Ishtar?
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
716
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:51:00 -
[364] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche. I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why. First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade. And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important. As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
Quoting you simply because i think you're more likely to read something that has your name in it ^^
Pretty much the only change i'm really concerned with here is the Hyp... Have you tested how well the cap holds up running an active tank on it with only one cap booster? BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Tiedra Fortescue
Say Gurl
0
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Posted - 2013.04.08 22:52:00 -
[365] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche. I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why. First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade. And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important. As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos? But with 6 low that means we have sacrifice some serious tank or serious dps to make this work just out on both a mwd and a mjd which along with a higher ROF means we cant use any of it for an amount of time to be useful.......
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Lainalil
The Double Rainbow Butterflies The BEA's - Unintended Consequences
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:52:00 -
[366] - Quote
Look, you're not wrong about the concept of rep bonuses being interesting. Certainly there are things you can do with ships that get rep bonuses. In missions, these can be invaluable. Ah, my early days of Eve... training skills just to get that little extra oomph out of my reppers. Those days are gone though and I am no longer the carebear I once was.
If you want to make the local repper setup feasible than you need to make it so that bonus is not completely wasted in small gangs (those that run a few logi for support) or large fleets (such as those with carriers). You could indeed offer the bonus not only to local reppers but also to targeted reppers that target the hype itself. Thus, if you are in a gang you don't need to sacrifice part of your tank and rather you can continue to rely on logi support as many small gangs do. This would mean that carebears and nullbears and small gang pvp alike would all have a use for the ship.
-- To add to this I would say that the abby has resists, those help whether solo or being repped. As such, they are useful in nearly every situation. the Hype's bonus is currently situational and only helpful when logi is not on grid. This is a key issue that seems to be forgotten.
Regarding the med slots, you should consider that it's not just the cap that suffers there but also the tracking is awful. Many Hype pilots end up running several tracking computers, even when they have max tracking skills. Granted it helped to make it a different ship from the Megathron but removing their ability to track many/most targets is painful.
The Megathron... I don't even want to touch the ball of fail this seems to be. I don't mean that to be offensive but now you have a gimped shield tank with high dps or a gimped armor tank with more utility than it needs. |
fukier
893
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:52:00 -
[367] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Those bonuses are a little lackluster, how about combining the two and adding a control range bonus like the Ishtar?
what somethinglike this?
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints and Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +5% to drone activation range and sentry damage per level At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:53:00 -
[368] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
The reason that the dominix had the hybrid damage bonus to begin with is because you cant give more than 125mb of bandwidth. There is very little to separate it from its cruiser counterparts without the damage bonus. The dominix needs a drone control range bonus like the ishtar, so that you can fit 6 autocannons in the high slots instead of 5 + drone link aug. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:53:00 -
[369] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche. I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why. First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade. And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important. As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
832
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:53:00 -
[370] - Quote
Traxle wrote: I completely agree! It would be nice if they were permanently orbiting our ship, unable to leave that flight pattern but still hit stuff. I'm not sure what the tracking ramifications of that would be though.
or perhaps only allow them to move when they are recalled to the ship. Either way, big Plus for me on that
we already have these, they are called guns We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Malcanis - CSM 8 |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:54:00 -
[371] - Quote
Gonna get some sleep guys - we'll talk in the morning =) |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
229
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:54:00 -
[372] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
Personally I think (as I previously touched on) these 2 drone ship changes have some great potential to shake things up a bit - I do think tho that taking the 2 in isolation and giving them another pass of tweaking comparing one directly to the other might be worthwhile, I'd especially like to see something to make amarr drones used more with the geddon rather than it just being yet another drone boat fielding gal and min drones.
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Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
134
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:54:00 -
[373] - Quote
CCP Rise: Thanks for the feedback, I think that at the end of the day that counts for quite a bit.
After thinking this through I think the answer lies is exactly what you hinted to: HYPERION(Make it the attack BS): Keep the 8/4/7 slot layout with the 5% to hybrid turret damage and make the armor rep amount also apply to a reduction to cap usage. That % number (you do the math) perhaps combined with a stronger capacitor should make you able to comfortably tank a double rep Hyperion with a single large cap booster.(comfortably means not insta-death to a few nuets) If someone wants to triple rep then they have to go to two cap boosters and sacrifice the web. Also jack the power grid up so that it can fit neutrons even with the larger armor rep rigs. By doing this you force it to armor tank and it won't be an OP shield tank beast. A bump to the drone bay and it will be ok. its still not going to be OP because at the end of the day it has to commit so many low slots to tanking vice gank. This will also make it a fairly fast ship and able to maybe get into range, maybe. And it will be very vulnerable to the endless Falcons out there so it will still die so much it won't get much use.
DOMI: So not much about this boat excites me after seeing the Geddon. Many options but I think I like a) restore guns to it and jack up the damn powergrid so it can be a big awesome vexor. b) Spread the love you showed the APOC and give it the Amarr armor resist bonus. I think I like this the most. But either way it currently fails to meet the Gal drone boat premise of More dps than amarr drone boats. (yes I suppose tracking helps but not enough to make it worthwhile compared to the neut beast.
MEGA: It just needs to go back to the way it was with a bit of CPU increase so you can fit the heavy neut and tech II plates in there and still sport a cap booster without a bunch of implants in your head. |
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:55:00 -
[374] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
Best case scenario - it succeeds to running away into the gate. Worst case - dies miserably, probably permojammed by 5 light ecm drones :D
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KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:55:00 -
[375] - Quote
I really like what you are doing with the domi, completely devoting it to drones is a good way to go.
Not completely sold on the Mega and Hyp however, the problem [as you have stated yourself] is that they are too similar to begin with, you fixed this with the Amarr by adding a new role for the Amarr, namely drones and drasticaly changing the geddon.
Maybe you should concider something similar here, we only need one blasterboat battleship and there is no point in a gallente railboat [as Rohk will do it better] so do something drastically different with one of these. Maybe its time to create a second disruption battleship like the scorpion? |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
435
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:56:00 -
[376] - Quote
Budrick3 wrote:Quote:Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-1) Fittings: 15750 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485 How the hell is the Hyperion supposed to be an active tanker when you remove a mid slot? What logic was involved in this.... Hyperion = Blaster boat. Means that it needs to close distance fast, which requires a MWD, then placing web / scram on a target. Those are 3 required slots for 99% of galente ships. Now the fact that this ship is an active tanker, it requires cap boosters. 1 Cap booster is not going to cut it on a 8 turret, active tanking ship. What genius thought that was a good idea? Not to mention this ship is god awful at tracking so even when it does close the distance, it cant hit crap. In addition to that, for some reason the megathron can fit a full set of heavy dones, but the third tier class battleship is not able to, and costs quite a bit more. Seems like CCP is trying to change things just to change things. Fail. Don't mess with the Gallente ships at all except the hyperion. Fix the tracking or something. Holy crap, there just gonna ruin Gallente bs.
This just proves that CCP have NO idea what they are doing with Gallente ships. Especially the Hyp. "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
717
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:56:00 -
[377] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Gonna get some sleep guys - we'll talk in the morning =)
Weakling. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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baltec1
Bat Country
5866
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:00:00 -
[378] - Quote
I can see where you are going with the mega and I do like it but I do have a few niggly bits. The ROF means a larger cap drain, have you taken this into account?
And how would you feel about rather than losing a low slot for the mid how about losing the utility high? |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
435
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:01:00 -
[379] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
I really wish you guys would think outside the box when it comes to your ships.
Please read the numberous drone revamp threads instead of just making up stuff on the fly
"Lets just make all drone battleships have equal drone bays!! That will fix everything!"
How about passively repair drone bays for dedicated drone ships? Drone pilots cant overheat drones, so how do we squeeze extra damage from drones like turret pilots can?
It's almost like you guys are scared to make cool ships/bonuses etc. "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
609
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:02:00 -
[380] - Quote
The problem with what you're trying to do with regards to the Hyperion is that you want to keep it active tanking, but it can't tank enough without the extra capacitor from the second cap booster (in it's current, changed state). And that's not looking into the fitting issues (mainly centred around PG) you have trying to fit dual reps and Ions (let alone Neutrons - good luck with that). Admittedly going for a passive tank would work a lot better now because of the extra low slot, but then you're wasting the bonus and you have to ask yourself why one of the other ex-tier 3 BSes aren't better (especially considering the extreme close range nature of blasters). Remember, these are generally meant to be fleet ships, unless you want the Dominix to take over that role (which with the current state of drones will end very poorly).
One thing I mentioned earlier in the thread was that you should switch the Megathron and Hyperion around for the combat/attack classification. Another thing to remember with regards to that idea is that the armour rigs a Megathron will usually use to increase it's buffer will slow it down, while the the Hyperion (if it's active tanking as the role bonus suggests it should) will use active tanking rigs which now don't do so, allowing it to be a faster ship. (Also, keep in mind the fitting you mentioned in your latest post for the Megathron appears to be either no utility or Electron Blasters)
And seriously man, please be careful with the Dominix. I know you guys are pushing hard with the Amarr also using drones, but it's always been one of the Gallente's things (we have Creo-Dron for goodness sake!). Don't let it fade away into obscurity, overshadowed by the new Armageddon. Also keep in mind that if we want our sentry drones to shoot over 60km (with max skills - less otherwise), we're going to need to fit DLAs, taking up high slots previously occupied by turrets or Neuts. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
229
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:03:00 -
[381] - Quote
Montevius Williams wrote:
This just proves that CCP have NO idea what they are doing with Gallente ships. Especially the Hyp.
To be fair I think to an extent CCP Rise is trying to make the best of a bad job when it comes to the gal blaster boats - unfortunatly the hyperion is such an ugly duckling in general (tho I know some people enjoy some niche uses for them) that IMO there isn't an elegant solution, it would potentially be better to pretend the hyperion never existed in the first place and redo it from scratch aslong as that didn't upset too many people. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:03:00 -
[382] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.
How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus? |
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:03:00 -
[383] - Quote
Hyp : ok whith the low slot, an "armor tank designed ship" whith 6 low was a joke. Dominix : why not, not good, not bad, just "different"
But the mega ! The myth, the epic boat !
6 low? is it a joke? ok you have one more medslot, cool to fit some helpfull stuff. But 6 low? going to be pathetic in armor tank. And just "not so bad" in shield tank, but a talos going to make the same job whith more DPS.
Or, remove an hight slot, for a low slot, like what you did on the typhoon. To have PERFECT slot balance. Why so much love on the phoon and not on the mega? |
Lili Lu
726
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:04:00 -
[384] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal. Yes. Actually would it be hard to have the sentry drones move with the ship? It would seem they already have to do a check for distance to ship (or at least upon an attempt to recall them), and the server already does a check for movement as the damn things move at 1m/sec (and too often end up inside a pos shield and unable to be put back in the drone bay ).
As for the active armor bonuses, I don't understand why you guys are so focused on them and on making them a gallente thing. Fine keep trying to make active armor viable as you do nothing to change the disabilities of long cycle, boost at end of the cycle, just plain less boost per cycle, very costly grid requirements considering the need for multiple boosters and possibly multiple cap boosters, and of course always being counterable by neuts unlike the ASB (or the use of cap booster with the armor rep).
This game has always wanted/rewarded team play. Active repping is counter to this. And it simply can't match the power of having multiple ships repping a buddy. So why not make the signature Gallente armor tanking bonus an hp per level bonus. This would act like a ship based plate without the horrible mobility penalties that you expect gallente ships to deal with as you simultaneously try to always steer them into the use of the shortest range weapons (combined opt + falloff blasters). Then your new attempts to make active armor viable through the introduction of the AARs could be used on any race of ship.
But thank you for reducing the resist bonuses. Those ships have been flying around with a free, capless and slotless, eanm or invuln. This has been truly the best bonus in the game. Please though don't forget the Drake, Ferox, and Prophecy. BCs and probably even all the amarr and caldari ships that get the resist bonus can easily live with a 1-5% reduction on their resists. They will remain very powerful at every level of eve combat. |
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
312
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:04:00 -
[385] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why.
First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade.
And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important.
As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
The problem with the extra mid is that you don't gain a lot from having it when using an armor tank relative to the extra low. Where the mid really helps is when you're trying to shield tank the mega, but you're pretty much always better off with a shield talos than a shield mega. So the question is whether or not that extra mid slot is actually worth having over the extra low in most situations. In my opinion, the answer is no by an extremely wide margin. |
Khoul Ay'd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:05:00 -
[386] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
Please, PLEASE make this happen! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717
Mangala Solaris for CSM 8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=210535 |
Major Killz
175
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:07:00 -
[387] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Gonna get some sleep guys - we'll talk in the morning =)
Are YOU SERIOUS!? SLEEPING ON MY DIME? I DEMAND CUSTOMER SERVICE. I DEMAND IT!
- killz |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2171
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:09:00 -
[388] - Quote
After looking at the Armageddon and Dominix stats I must voice a certain degree of displeasure.
The problem: They both have pretty much the same damage dealing power.
Allow me to explain...
The Armageddon is overall better and more useful due to its ability to field heavy neutralizers with a range bonus. The 'Geddon also has more fitting options because of its vastly higher powergrid (which, to be fair, comes at the cost of CPU... but that can be more easily worked around).
The Dominix's new drone tracking and optimal bonus will certainly be useful in SOME situations (like station or gate camping) but is still gimmicky as it doesn't really give the ship any real tactical advantage in an actual battleship brawl (sentries and heavy drones don't have a problem tracking slow battleships... and they still won't be able to keep up with anything cruiser sized and/or speedy).
If these changes go through I will have little reason to go for a Dominix. The same functionality can be found in the Armageddon and more. The same damn thing happened with the Prophecy and Myrmidon. Sure, the new Myrm gained 1 more heavy drone... but the new Prophecy can do exactly what the old Myrmidon could do... only MUCH better. But I digress...
Solutions? Follow the paradigm between the Algos and Dragoon, the Vexor and Arbitrator. The Gallente can field more raw drone power and the Amarr have equal portions drones and utility. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:11:00 -
[389] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.
How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus? Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss.
Basically: 7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9 7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.48
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:11:00 -
[390] - Quote
KuroVolt wrote:I really like what you are doing with the domi, completely devoting it to drones is a good way to go.
Not completely sold on the Mega and Hyp however, the problem [as you have stated yourself] is that they are too similar to begin with, you fixed this with the Amarr by adding a new role for the Amarr, namely drones and drasticaly changing the geddon.
Maybe you should concider something similar here, we only need one blasterboat battleship and there is no point in a gallente railboat [as Rohk will do it better] so do something drastically different with one of these. Maybe its time to create a second disruption battleship like the scorpion?
Quoting myself to add something:
The problem is you should have one blasterboat you can balance into exactly that; a good blasterboat.
Trying to have 2 blasterboats basically forces you to gimp both in a way so they are both relevant.
Leaving us with nothing more than 2 gimped blasterboats rather than one good one. |
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:12:00 -
[391] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche. I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why. First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade. And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important. As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
One more point here. Similar tank isn't a good excuse with the dps loss. As is, the mega has a FLIMSY armor tank by tier 3 standards. This is supposed to be tiericide right? Shouldn't it now be competitive with its bigger brothers, rather than a slightly faster, damage poor version of its old self? TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
599
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:13:00 -
[392] - Quote
Haven't read any of last ten pages, but anyway...
Don't change the Domi, it's basically fine. Give sentries a 100-200 m/s return-to-bay speed (they're still stationary when firing ofc). Tweak fittings a bit.
Hyperion: 10% active rep bonus, seven turrets with 10% damage bonus, 7-5-7 slots. Probably still not great given the meta, but at least it's flexible, and viable in active armour mode.
Megathron. More mobility, otherwise basically okay?
The original proposed changes are kinda bizarre because they're so extreme. And yet there isn't really anything fundamentally wrong with the existing roles of Gallente BS, it's just that the Hype is a bit rubbish and there's no real fleet BS. I'm a bit worried that there's still no fleet BS in my ideas above, but maybe the Hype's damage output would make it worthwhile (cf Rokh with no damage bonus, and Mael being fine as a fleet boat despite active tank bonus because of alpha, the 10.5 gun-equivalent Hyperion might have enough raw damage output to make it useful, sacrificing tank for DPS relative to Rokh?) |
Maximille Biagge
The Eidolon Foundation
75
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:13:00 -
[393] - Quote
R.I.P Hyperion, you sweet prince of solo goodness. May your epic dual or triple-rep setups be the stuff of legends. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1280
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:13:00 -
[394] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does.
I honestly don't know how you can say this with a straight face.
The dominix becomes a pure drone boat. And one that can field 5 heavies. Yet it's drone bay can fit only 3 flights of heavies, with no room for lights or mediums (to have the flexibility it would need against tacklers for example).
Now maybe 3 full flights of heavies is plenty for a drone based platform, as it does give you a fair amount of flexibility for either spares or flights of different damage types. But a slight increase to be able to have that flexibility on the heavy side coupled with some extra space for lights would be a huge benefit. |
Lord Okinaba
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:15:00 -
[395] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.
Mega stabs and Drone damage mods will take up 4-6 of the low slots. Most likely 6 , 3 of each, just to get some decent DPS out of it. That doesn't exactly leave much room for an armour tank.
If you're going to take away the bonus to hybrids, buff the bonus to drone damage or give it more lows. |
Major Killz
175
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:16:00 -
[396] - Quote
GIMMICK? HOW? What is the only thing stopping drone vessels from being very useful in large scale engagements? Optimal range, tracking and the static nature of sentry drones.
They are in fact trying to implement a eve WIDE DOMINIX doctrine. Still! Unless CCP does allow sentries to micro warp back to drone bays but not have base speed. They will not see wide use but the proposed changes can be a precursor.
Personally though. I do believe you can still do the same as the Dominix can with a Armaggedon but with pulse lasers and sentry drones.
- killz |
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
8
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:17:00 -
[397] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
Easy : talos could escape cause way faster, mega can't if backup show up. Mega will be caught in many situation cause more sig and big ass, and die, talos will escape most often. Talos can tackle mega on a gate before mega warpout, mega can't tackle talos before he warpout. If talos die, he going to lose only 40-50% of isk compare to a mega. You should play to eve a bit more
Remove a hight slot on the mega for a low slot, like you did on the typhoon, problem solved. Why perfect slot layout for typhoon and not for mega? Give to mega's pilot a REAL choice between armor or shield tank. Actually, 6low slot on a BS is simply not enought to fit a decent armor tanked BS. |
Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:17:00 -
[398] - Quote
Hi CCP Rise, and thanks for reading through all this. I think, and, from what I hear, most of my mates in Matari Exodus share the opinion that the Gallente changes are suboptimal. Here's why:
1. The Mega and the Hype in their current state are both able to dual-rep. The Mega can do it because it doesn't need a web, the tracking bonus helps a lot. The Hype can do it because it has 5 med slots. The only reason why an active Hype would ever be better at something than an active Mael in PvP is that you can do stuff with your med slots without losing tank. A 4-med Hype means that the Maelstrom will do everything better. The Mega could probably still fit dual reps, but the tank would suffer greatly. I'm not sure if more speed and (probably) an ECCM can make up for that.
2. I also don't like the thought that the Mega will be commonly be used as a shield tank. If you want the hybrid damage bonuses that Gallente ships offer and still shield tank them for even more OMGWTFDPS, it seems only right that you'd have to sacrifice a bonus to do it, which is what you do on the shield Hype now.
4. The Domi looks weird, I'm still not sure what to make of it. If the orbit range on combat drones doesn't change, the speed bonus only means they will outtrack themselves even harder. Gardes will shoot about as far as Curators do now, but even Curators will require the use of a drone link augmentor to use all their range. With Wardens, you'd have to fit 3 DLAs and a SeBo. Quite weird. The only situation where I can see the new bonus be useful in solo or small gang PvP is when you have to make Falcons or Scorpions warp off. But this can, at least in many situations, already be done with Curators or Bouncers if you have enough lock range. TBH, I think the bonus will be pretty useless in 80% of the situations one might face as a small gang pilot, and I don't think it is anywhere as useful as a damage bonus to guns. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
134
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:18:00 -
[399] - Quote
They are hoping that we'll dual prop the mega with an MJD. That would be interesting, maybe if the boat could naturally target out to 110kms or so. That way you could land and immediately scram/web the target but all that will happen is that the target will burn range before you lock. And if you go with this concept then you have to buffer armor tank, meaning any bonus to speed and agility is now lost to trimarks. Cap and fitting will be a big issue with dual prop and the boat will be very gimped. So I guess you could take the utility high and stick it in a low but a Mega without a Heavy Neut will be a very stuck Mega. Once scrammed it will be immobile and unable to apply DPS. So better to just get into an APOC and who cares if your tackled? You have lolscorch and Mega tracking, oh and drones, to kill everything.
So maybe go 7/5/7 (6 guns, 1 utility high) and up the Damage to 7.5% or something so that there is no loss in DPS. Up CPU and Grid to make it all work? |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
440
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:19:00 -
[400] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.
How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus? Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss. Basically: 7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9 7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.5 Heh, thanks for bringing that up.
I'm certain this is part of CCP's bargining ploy and they'll be bringing out the REAL gallente changes tomorrow... And because these have all been so terrible, we'll be thanking our lucky stars when we've been brought to parity with Amitar. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
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Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:24:00 -
[401] - Quote
Hi Rise,
Have a good nights sleep and when you wake up we'll pretend this was a bad idea, I mean dream.
Mega - Maybe it's not as bad as I think. Split slots are kinda like split weapons systems. They have a tendency to be mediocre, But, they can make things interesting and unpredictable. Drone bay nerf still sucks hard though.
Hype - If, Big IF, you're gonna make this a brawler then it needs PG. ALOT. ATM it's almost the worst of the group. Rokh will fit dual asb's and neutrons no problem. I see nothing to suggest the Hype has been buffed enough to fit dual rep and Neutrons. ( And minus the second cap injector I don't think it can keep then running very long ). Could really use +50 drone bay for a disposable flight of web drones if we '' have to '' go that way . Still not sure it's gonna do much to fix a hull that needs a full rework.
" Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level "
No dude, 40 k large neuts with 35k+ bonused points are not being over estimated. Domi sucks. MWD bonus + who knows what to make anyone look at it's ugly ass again. Tracking and optimal aren't worth jack if Ogre's can't chase you down. And sorry, no sentry buff will make up for a useless bonus. Geddon will use sentries to.
NN
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
268
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:25:00 -
[402] - Quote
Arazel Chainfire wrote:and if you have more than about 2 people in fleet you would be better off having someone in a logi to rep you anyways, due to how horribad active armor tanking is on large ships. This is absolutely wrong ! This is a myth ! A LAAR+LAR or triple rep hyperion tank more than an abaddon with oneiros repair ! |
Powers Sa
595
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:27:00 -
[403] - Quote
wooooooooooooooooooooooo I can't wait to go back to welping in highsec to wardecs: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13742506 ahahahaha THANKS RISE!!! We can re-add our DAS NEUT geddon to the DAS BOOT domi fleet comp. Vote Nullsec for CSM8 Mynnna Kesper North-á Kaleb Rysode Malc00nis |
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:28:00 -
[404] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:Saul Hyperion wrote: Drop the utility high, restore the low and the Megathron is heading down the right track.
But I love the neut on my mega
Not to rain on your parade, but just use drones for neuting have get them to buff them so they work better.
I keep thinking that removing the 1 high on the mega and put it in the mid is the way to go. This along with fixes to drones could make the mega extremely potent as a shield or armor tank with a full flight of drones for dps or utility.
Of course this would mean making heavy drones not suck in pvp... |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:29:00 -
[405] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
With these changes it [megathron] will be a great roaming BS yet also able to fill roles in larger fleets.
It will be far too squishy as a large fleet ship. Rokhs will beat it in damage projection and tank, Baddons beat it in damage projection and tank. Maelstroms will still dominate them because of alpha, despite not even using one of their bonuses. They have enough mids and natural buffer to fit a sufficient tank.
That leaves mobility-intensive roles as its only advantage. Even with its extra dps, landing it on top of another fleet would be suicide, as it doesn't have enough tank to hold up in a large fleet environment. You could fit railguns and hit people from out of range, but at that point...why not just fly nagas?
The hype, armor buffer fit, had about the same ehp as the mega before this, and will have significantly more without it, so despite the useless bonus, it's now the better armor fleet ship....but still worse than the rokh and baddon. Mega will likely struggle to break 90k ehp on a fleet fit. Theoretically you could shield tank it now, but there's really no reason to use it over a rokh for large fleet use. Armor buffer is pretty much a no-go too, as is active tanking, since it hasn't got a bonus and unbonused active fits are awful.
The fallacy here is that they're still trying to make the megathron the attack BS. The dominix's bonuses don't play nicely with large fleets, but the mega's do. Conversely, the domi works wonderfully for fighting on gates and stations, and other small scale combat...not so much for large, moving fleets. So keep the domi squishy, but add mobility to the ship as well as the drones, and up the hitpoints on the megathron to match the hyperion (plus some shield ehp), and we'll have a nice couple of ships. It would even be nice to see the domi's hitpoints and dps bonus get "and ewar effectiveness" tacked onto it, to conform a bit more to the role of the scorpion and new geddon. thhief ghabmoef |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:29:00 -
[406] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:They are hoping that we'll dual prop the mega with an MJD. That would be interesting, maybe if the boat could naturally target out to 110kms or so. That way you could land and immediately scram/web the target but all that will happen is that the target will burn range before you lock. And if you go with this concept then you have to buffer armor tank, meaning any bonus to speed and agility is now lost to trimarks. Cap and fitting will be a big issue with dual prop and the boat will be very gimped. So I guess you could take the utility high and stick it in a low but a Mega without a Heavy Neut will be a very stuck Mega. Once scrammed it will be immobile and unable to apply DPS. So better to just get into an APOC and who cares if your tackled? You have lolscorch and Mega tracking, oh and drones, to kill everything.
So maybe go 7/5/7 (6 guns, 1 utility high) and up the Damage to 7.5% or something so that there is no loss in DPS. Up CPU and Grid to make it all work?
You can already do this with a navy mega and hit to 140km doing 450ish dps. It isnt mids that makes that viable - its lows allowing solid damage + range with a good tank. TCs eat too much CPU, TEs are superior on CPU starved ships. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1232
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:32:00 -
[407] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
Even without the neuting bonus, the powergrid disparity of 5,500 will be more than enough reason to select the Armageddon.
|
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
134
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:33:00 -
[408] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Arazel Chainfire wrote:and if you have more than about 2 people in fleet you would be better off having someone in a logi to rep you anyways, due to how horribad active armor tanking is on large ships. This is absolutely wrong ! This is a myth ! A LAAR+LAR or triple rep hyperion tank more than an abaddon with oneiros repair !
Point taken but its a) Pretty rare to see solo logi, but yes does happen. b) But much harder to neut or hit that solo logi repper at range no? |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:35:00 -
[409] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.
This is where you went wrong, I think.
The Megathron and the Hyperion do not share the same space. From the point of view of any well-informed Gallente pilot, the Hyperion might as well not exist -- the Gallente only have two battleships, one droneboat, and one armor/blaster brawler. You shouldn't be trying to move the Megathron away from that role -- you should be throwing out the useless and misconceived "role" the Hyperion attempts to fill and making it into something entirely new and exciting.
Personally I think it would make a great analogue to the Scorpion, as a Gallente e-war battleship in the same line as the Maulus -> Celestis -> ???. The active tanking line is missing an entry at the cruiser size and has two battlecruiser entries, it doesn't need one at battleship size. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:40:00 -
[410] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.
How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus? Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss. Basically: 7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9 7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.5 Thanks for confirming, seemed like less DPS after the change but wasn't sure the exact numbers. |
|
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
313
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:47:00 -
[411] - Quote
Olaf4862 wrote:Not to rain on your parade, but just use drones for neuting have get them to buff them so they work better.
I keep thinking that removing the 1 high on the mega and put it in the mid is the way to go. This along with fixes to drones could make the mega extremely potent as a shield or armor tank with a full flight of drones for dps or utility.
Of course this would mean making heavy drones not suck in pvp...
Using 4 Praetor EV-900s, you'd neut 100GJ less cap per 24s (heavy neut cycle time) than the neut. Add that to losing 200+dps to not having heavy drones (or 150+dps for mediums), and that the drones can be killed super easy, and this is a terrible idea. Neut drones are bad. |
nat longshot
The RedNeck Posse
169
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:50:00 -
[412] - Quote
Ok now before side change happen WFT are you thinking ccp.
I to lazy to look it up but did a gm/ccp member state in some other post the mega is fine dont see a need to change it.
But not were droping alow slot off a armor tanked ship for a med so you can fit a MJD thats just messed up.
Just at the new mid slot for the mjd and the power and cpu to fit a mwd/ab and the mjd.
You remove a low will kill the mega give low hp and even lower dps thank to no armor res or armor buff to make up for the loss of the low slot.
The mega need all the lows its has to get in range to use those damn blasters and your killing with the first idea.
CCP do you even fly these ships?
-á[13:12:18] CCP Punkturis nat longshot you're a cutie.. OH YAH I WIN!! |
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:52:00 -
[413] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Megathron:
Let me say it right out - 8 high, 5 mid, 6 low. With the Megathron moving into an attack role explicitly, we felt that it could really focus on its strengths as a flexible, fast, hybrid damage machine. The new slot layout opens options like dual propulsion with microwarp drive as well as microjump drive. It opens options to tank with shield or armor. It offers more ewar resilience or tackle. The sum of all of these examples is a ship that feels more like a tempest, less like a Hyperion. For us, this matches the intended personality of an attack ship, and we hope you agree.
We've also moved some of its damage from drones to the guns by switching the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus (rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need.
As one of Eve's most iconic ships, we expect you to have strong opinions here. Please share them. We're very excited about this version of the ship and hope you are too!
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
I normally don't reply to these threads as other people are better at game balance than I, but I'm moved to say, in best caps-lock tradition, DON'T **** WITH MY MEGA. Dropping the launchers for utility slots removes some DPS potential, especially in PVE, which is not countered by the ROF vs damage mod. As most people will likely drop a mag stab from the lows the new cap balance from ROF increase may be OK, but I'll let someone with better math figure that out. You're also slashing 20% drone damage by reducing the drone bandwidth which is not reflected in the ROF bonus.
Overall I think this is a big nerf to the mega - if you want to balance out focus on the crappy Hyp and leave my mega alone
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3913
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 23:55:00 -
[414] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.
How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus? Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss. Basically: 7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9 7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.5 Thanks for confirming, seemed like less DPS after the change but wasn't sure the exact numbers. Okay, I'm not a propeller head but I don't think the ROF bonus is calculated correctly on that. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:02:00 -
[415] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:[quote=Olaf4862]
Using 4 Praetor EV-900s, you'd neut 100GJ less cap per 24s (heavy neut cycle time) than the neut. Add that to losing 200+dps to not having heavy drones (or 150+dps for mediums), and that the drones can be killed super easy, and this is a terrible idea. Neut drones are bad.
Using 5 Praetro EV-900's you'd neut the same amount. And not use any of your own cap in the process. Neut drones are not a common choice, but they can work. They become reasonable choice in a 150 or 175 drone bay with 125 bandwidth <-- Hint Hint Rise. |
Lunaleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:04:00 -
[416] - Quote
I don't see a fleet ship in this current iteration.
Hyperion active armor tanking = death knell for fleet Domi - overshadowed by slowcats in fleet. (and I think FCs would gravitate to Armageddon anyways) Mega - I can tell you the mega wasn't sitting on the sidelines because it lacked a midslot.
You really need to consider changing your active armor tank over to the domi and adding an extra highslot and turret on the mega. That gives you a small fleet BS and two fleet BS's that actually make sense. |
Ashaton
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:04:00 -
[417] - Quote
So... can we just get rid of the Gallente Faction all together? At least that way people won't waste their time training into these ships.
You want a good hybrid platform? Train Caldari You want a good drone platform? Train Amarr
gg |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:07:00 -
[418] - Quote
I suppose the percentage of gallente ships in my hangar will go from 10% to 0% now. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
fukier
895
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:09:00 -
[419] - Quote
remember the new bonus for the domi
optimal range and tracking
with that in mind and sentries being fotm
this is the setup i would use for fleets
[Dominix, new] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Drone Navigation Computer II Large Micro Jump Drive Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large Energy Transfer Array II Large Energy Transfer Array II
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor II Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5 Bouncer II x5
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
78
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:10:00 -
[420] - Quote
Hi Rise,
Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbersGǪ
IGÇÖm going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups)
Stock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 total
Change to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidth
Result
Stock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total
Megathron saved, Threadnought averted
*bows*
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
|
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
313
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:11:00 -
[421] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Using 5 Praetro EV-900's you'd neut the same amount. And not use any of your own cap in the process. Neut drones are not a common choice, but they can work. They become a reasonable choice in a 150 or 175 drone bay with 125 bandwidth <-- Hint Hint Rise.
The proposed Mega only has 100mb of bandwidth, meaning you can use at most four. If we're going to change the proposed slot layout, it's honestly way better off staying 8/4/7 with the bay reduction, than it is with a 7/5/7 layout, but with a larger drone bay/bandwidth so it can viably use neut drones instead of a heavy neut. That still doesn't take into account how retardedly easy it is to mitigate drone neuting, which is enough to make them a poor decision without even needing to take drone bandwidth into account. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
268
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:11:00 -
[422] - Quote
Grideris wrote:The problem with what you're trying to do with regards to the Hyperion is that you want to keep it active tanking, but it can't tank enough without the extra capacitor from the second cap booster (in it's current, changed state). And that's not looking into the fitting issues (mainly centred around PG) you have trying to fit dual reps and Ions (let alone Neutrons - good luck with that). Admittedly going for a passive tank would work a lot better now because of the extra low slot, but then you're wasting the bonus and you have to ask yourself why one of the other ex-tier 3 BSes aren't better (especially considering the extreme close range nature of blasters). Remember, these are generally meant to be fleet ships, unless you want the Dominix to take over that role (which with the current state of drones will end very poorly). First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.
Second, regarding PWG, because the Hyperion lose a mid slot, that's one less heavy cap booster and that many PWG freed.
Finaly, with one more low slot, the Hyperion have the possibility to tank even more. Considering active armor buff (AAR) and the new low slot, the tank potential is huge, and LAAR + LAR Hyperion will tank as much as a triple regular rep Hype. Neutralizer hurt more when you have only one cap booster, but neutralizers were already dangerous anyway. Double rep hype run quite some time with one heavy cap booster (more than five minutes).
The other solution, which may have been more popular, woud be to make Hyperion the attack ship, keeping the slot layout and the bonuses, and make the Megathron the combat ship, keeping slot and bonus too. Problem would be the tracking bonus fitting better the attack role while armor+damage bonus fit better the combat role, but people never cared about these role in the first place...
Though the Megathron should keep the drone IMO. That would reduce the damage loss or give even more utility, and further emphasize its gallente flavour (it would be odd no gallente BS but the drone ship get a full flight of heavies). |
chris elliot
EG CORP Talocan United
162
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:13:00 -
[423] - Quote
I honestly didn't think it was possible to make the hyperion any worse than it already was.... but you guys did a great job proving me wrong.
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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
313
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:14:00 -
[424] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Second, regarding PWG, because the Hyperion lose a mid slot, that's one less heavy cap booster and that many PWG freed.
That's nice and all, except you can't reasonably power 2 armor reps on only one cap booster. |
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:17:00 -
[425] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:Olaf4862 wrote:Not to rain on your parade, but just use drones for neuting have get them to buff them so they work better.
I keep thinking that removing the 1 high on the mega and put it in the mid is the way to go. This along with fixes to drones could make the mega extremely potent as a shield or armor tank with a full flight of drones for dps or utility.
Of course this would mean making heavy drones not suck in pvp... Using 4 Praetor EV-900s, you'd neut 100GJ less cap per 24s (heavy neut cycle time) than the neut. Add that to losing 200+dps to not having heavy drones (or 150+dps for mediums), and that the drones can be killed super easy, and this is a terrible idea. Neut drones are bad.
Kinda why i said they would have to not suck first... |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:17:00 -
[426] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.
This has more to do with the disproportionate advantages of projectile turrets and ammo than it does with the hulls. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
78
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:18:00 -
[427] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.
How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus? Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss. Basically: 7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9 7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.5 Thanks for confirming, seemed like less DPS after the change but wasn't sure the exact numbers. Okay, I'm not a propeller head but I don't think the ROF bonus is calculated correctly on that. I'm really tired and in a hurry, but shouldn't that base = 10.5 turrets? You had me going for a moment there, as it is way too late (read: early) but no, that is correct: 7/0.75 = 9.33.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:21:00 -
[428] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Hi Rise, Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbersGǪ IGÇÖm going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups) Stock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 totalChange to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidthResultStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total Megathron saved, Threadnought averted *bows*
You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
816
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:22:00 -
[429] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hi Rise, Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbersGǪ IGÇÖm going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups) Stock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 totalChange to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidthResultStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total Megathron saved, Threadnought averted *bows* You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship. It will be a great ship now in both armor fleets and shield fleets, that extra mid did wonders for its versatility. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
268
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:23:00 -
[430] - Quote
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote: First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.
This has more to do with the disproportionate advantages of projectile turrets and ammo than it does with the hulls. Or you are seeing it the wrong way : this has to do with railguns not being good enough ? This Hyperion would be a good as a Rokh in fact. Kind of an abaddon with more range but less resists. |
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:23:00 -
[431] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored. Not sure if this feedback will be seen (being so late in the thread), but if you don't want to throw out the active tanking bonus, give us one that isn't so freaking TERRIBLE. It's absolutely atrocious. There's no comparison to active tanks vs +resist bonused ones. In every case, the +resist ones are going to be better, time over time, without fail.
This problem isn't as present in the shield ships with active bonuses, because the Adaptive Invulns , being active modules, provide a much higher resist profile per-module than a comparably equipped armor ship with EANMs, and thus the effect of not having a +resist bonus is lessened.
If you want to keep active armor tanking ships, you have to stop active armor tanking being so bad as well as make them viable for fleet use. There either needs to be a 1) bonus that affects remote reps received IN ADDITION TO local ones or 2) give the ship an extra low slot--in every case there is active armor tanking to be done--to compensate with more EANMs/active modules required to fill resist holes and increase parity with fleet-oriented ships.
Further, the rep bonus itself is TERRIBLE at 7.5%. Why did the Incursus succeed so much at active armor tanking? Two reasons: 1) the 10% bonus was spot-on and 2) the small rep cycle time is amazing. So, increase the rep bonus to 10% and include a lowered the cycle time/cap usage (of med/large reppers), too.
I don't feel that AARs need to be cap free, as long as the rep bonus includes a cap reduction of some sort. This would make active tanking easier on active-focused ships while still being viable to resist ships by allowing their pilots the option to active tank but with cap-usage tradeoff choices. Also, please don't tote the AAR as having 2.25x rep bonus of Meta 1 reppers, since nobody uses them. It's a pointless comparison of those metrics when the 2.25x number is inflated vs meta- and T2- reppers that people ACTUALLY USE.
TL;DR - make active tanking not terrible by 10% bonus and lowered cycle time/cap use. Active-focused ships need +1 lowslot to compensate for increased resist modules to keep parity with +resist bonus ships. AARs need to be compared to meta and T2 reppers people use. |
Rawstyle
Aperture Harmonics K162
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:26:00 -
[432] - Quote
Literally the only use for the hyperion was the dual cap injected fit. Removing the mid has killed the 1 single way this ship could be remotely useful. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:27:00 -
[433] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).
The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.
I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.
I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
Thanks that you are taking our feedback seriously.
Now with that said, back to the issue at hand.
My biggest issue is with the Hype. The lost of that midslot hurts it in every single way. If you run Incursions, that's loss of tank. If you run missions, that's loss of Cap/Web. If you PvP that's loss of Tracking, Webs, Shields, etc. Everything you want to use this ship for, will be seriously hurt by that loss of a Midslot.
Now there's lots of talk of changing the bonuses.. I don't use the Armor rep bonus, almost no one does. Large Armor Reps use a lot of PG, and just drain cap.. Few people use them on ships that actually have weapons.. That said, I don't use it, so I don't really care if you keep it. It would be nice if it became an Armor HP bonus, or a Optimal/Falloff bonus ( With the change to TC,s Blasters need all the range bonus they can get ), but at the end of the day I'm not concerned with that, I don't think many are.. That loss of a Mid is the issue. We don't NEED another Low.. but we NEED that Mid.
I don't mind the changes to the other ships.. I mean I'm not thrilled by the Mega, but it's not my fav ship to use anyway..
Domi I think will make great use of it's new bonus.. so I'm fine with it.. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:27:00 -
[434] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hi Rise, Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbersGǪ IGÇÖm going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups) Stock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 totalChange to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidthResultStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total Megathron saved, Threadnought averted *bows* You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship. It will be a great ship now in both armor fleets and shield fleets, that extra mid did wonders for its versatility.
I'll post numbers when I get home, but the reason the current mega is a **** fleet ship is twofold. First, it has low CPU, making hardeners a no go, and limiting fitting options. Second, it has about 2/3rds the tank of a real fleet battleship. LOWERING its armor tank to make an even weaker shield tank into an option basically decimates its viability in a fleet setting. It can't line dps, and it can't compete with nagas and the like for sniper fleets.
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:29:00 -
[435] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hi Rise, Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbersGǪ IGÇÖm going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups) Stock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 totalChange to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidthResultStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total Megathron saved, Threadnought averted *bows* You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship. A mid it doesn't need while still retaining much of the tank and DPS it had before isn't a loss. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:30:00 -
[436] - Quote
On a personal note, I am saddened to see that the Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps while not being compensated in any way. The solution to this is obvious: give the Dominix a +1 drone controlled per level.
This would make it better than the Armageddon as a drone boat (keeping with the Gallente flavor), while keeping it useful as a mission ship, pvp boat, fleet ship, etc.
As a further note on keeping the ship useful (and not terribly overpowered with the increased drones (10 total), change the +10% drone damage and hitpoints per level to +10% drone hitpoints and tracking (or optimal) per level.
Both of these changes would keep the Dominix unique and strong in both fleet pvp and pve situations while not being terribly overpowered. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3023
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:31:00 -
[437] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hi Rise, Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbersGǪ IGÇÖm going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups) Stock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 totalChange to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidthResultStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total Megathron saved, Threadnought averted *bows* You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship. A mid it doesn't need while still retaining much of the tank and DPS it had before isn't a loss.
It is when the ship's biggest flaw on live is its lack of respectable tank.
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:33:00 -
[438] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote: First, the Maelstrom is obviously a great fleetship (because there is a doctrine with it), yet it have a shield boosting bonus. The proposed Hyperion would follow this same pattern.
This has more to do with the disproportionate advantages of projectile turrets and ammo than it does with the hulls. Or you are seeing it the wrong way : this has to do with railguns not being good enough ? This Hyperion would be a good as a Rokh in fact. Kind of an abaddon with more range but less resists.
No, I think I have it right. Neither beam lasers nor railguns have any advantages nearly as significant as artillery's alpha and ability to deal any type of damage, and cruise missiles are in no position to be compared to either. Beam lasers, along with Railguns on the Rokh, still see some use because their situation is opposite of the Maelstrom -- mediocre guns on great hulls.
Gallente battleships on the other hand simply do not have bonuses appropriate for fleet combat. The Megathron comes close, but while tracking is a good bonus it simply isn't in the same tier as optimal or passive resists, let alone competitive with a ship that has two out of three of those bonuses. |
Ashaton
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:35:00 -
[439] - Quote
Sorry can someone explain this to me...
If the Dominix is supposed to be a drone sniper now, doesn't that mean it's basically going to have to kite? But its main source of damage will now have to come from sentries, which don't move... so how is it going to be able to kite? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
816
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:39:00 -
[440] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
68
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:39:00 -
[441] - Quote
BABARR wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
Easy : talos could escape cause way faster, mega can't if backup show up. Mega will be caught in many situation cause more sig and big ass, and die, talos will escape most often. Talos can tackle mega on a gate before mega warpout, mega can't tackle talos before he warpout. If talos die, he going to lose only 40-50% of isk compare to a mega. You should play to eve a bit more Remove a hight slot on the mega for a low slot, like you did on the typhoon, problem solved. Why perfect slot layout for typhoon and not for mega? Give to mega's pilot a REAL choice between armor or shield tank. Actually, 6low slot on a BS is simply not enought to fit a decent armor tanked BS.
He really needs to do that with the tempest as well Now that the tempest is HUGE ship withtout its former agility and speed advantage and its closer to being an amarr ship than minmatar. For god's sake... |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:39:00 -
[442] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.
I can not see one reason to fly the Domi. I have a full rack of useless highs, a few vacant mids that do not add anything, and my lows are for DDA's and tank. I have lost over 25% of my dps (others have lost up to 50%) and gained a bonus that adds nothing to the PVE experience. What am I suppose to do in anoms? Warp in at 50, MWJ to 150km, and then apply pitiful dps that my Kronos could easily match? I could just fly a rattlesnake and be done with it...
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S'totan
Impen Reloaded Samurai Pizza Cats
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:44:00 -
[443] - Quote
Dear CCP... I regret to inform you that adding mid slot to ship so it can shield tank, on a race that is an ARMOR tanking race is misinformed. I also regret to inform you that this ship already exists... Talos.
There wasnt a problem with the mega in the first place. It was a well balanced DPS brawler with decent tank. Now it has less EHP in armor, it was already crap. It has less DPS from drones. Its reduction to low slot makes the wonderful dps increase that you claim null as people will drop a magstab as aposed to its aleady horrid tank as a BS Its ATTACK speed increase STILL counts for nothing as in scram range 122 m/s is like trying to track a mountain from a moving car. Its ROF is laughable as the CAP usage of this is going to make all that amazing dps none appliciable. Congradulations you have made this ship less good in 5 ways. IF ANYTHING, drop the utility high slot for an extra mid, not a tanking slot. As an AVID mega pilot, the ONLY thing this ship needed was more CPU.
THE HYPE, same thing.... Slot layout needs to be 7h 5m 7L -remove a gun slot, give it a hull % bonus to counter the loss of dps from the dropped gun. - the HYPE NEEDS 2 cap boosters a scram, web and prop mod. -2 cap boosters are needed to maintain a duel rep tank. due to not ahving a tracking bonus it needs to web to slow down the target. OBVIOUSLY it needs a scram to keep its target there, and since you praise the MJD which works outstandingly on this ship, IT NEEDS this prop mod.
The domi. THIS IS THE SHIP that is the shield tanker... NOT THE MEGA. Shield tanked this boat was amazing, there is something about having near 1700 dps on a BS that just... HURTS... THIS is the boat that NEEDS to be the attack BS.
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Ashaton
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:47:00 -
[444] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.
Ishtar and Vindicator I guess... of course after this latest monstrosity of a nerf I'm sure by this Christmas the Ishtar will have a Medium Rail platform and the Vindicator will be a logi ship. |
Jinde Usoko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:47:00 -
[445] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:On a personal note, I am saddened to see that the Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps while not being compensated in any way. The solution to this is obvious: give the Dominix a +1 drone controlled per level.
This would make it better than the Armageddon as a drone boat (keeping with the Gallente flavor), while keeping it useful as a mission ship, pvp boat, fleet ship, etc.
As a further note on keeping the ship useful (and not terribly overpowered with the increased drones (10 total), change the +10% drone damage and hitpoints per level to +10% drone hitpoints and tracking (or optimal) per level.
Both of these changes would keep the Dominix unique and strong in both fleet pvp and pve situations while not being terribly overpowered. QFT. This idea would certainly add uniqueness to Domi and remove special snowflake status of Guardian-Vexor.
|
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
136
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:51:00 -
[446] - Quote
Ashaton wrote:Sorry can someone explain this to me...
If the Dominix is supposed to be a drone sniper now, doesn't that mean it's basically going to have to kite? But its main source of damage will now have to come from sentries, which don't move... so how is it going to be able to kite?
It won't kite. The only set up now that seems even worth while anymore is much like the fit that was posted earlier doing remote rep with each other. So they just huddle in close together and all drop out sentry drones. the ships and certainly not the drones don't do much moving. In the set up posted they are not even responsible for tackling. They just assign drones to the FC or target caller (probably in some ECCM fit recon) and all the sentries shoot the target. All the domi's rep each other/power transfer. That's it. In big masses this is ok, but very susceptible in smaller groups to neutralizers and ecm. Also they really don't rep that much compared to bringing boats meant to do logi (ie guardians and Oni's so its kind of meh.) It can be fun because sometime people will engage when they don't see logi on the field, but these are BS so that will give many pause anyways and rr domi's are rather expected. Of course against any real opponent they will just bring a bunch of Naga's, rokh's, mael's etc and just alpha through them depending on numbers. Its a fun but niche fleet concept. It certainly has some utility, but frankly I would rather bring dedicated logi and have the nueting power of a similar number of Geddons. That will make some cap pilots think twice I think about dropping. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
136
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:53:00 -
[447] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.
Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.
|
Ashaton
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:57:00 -
[448] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Ashaton wrote:Sorry can someone explain this to me...
If the Dominix is supposed to be a drone sniper now, doesn't that mean it's basically going to have to kite? But its main source of damage will now have to come from sentries, which don't move... so how is it going to be able to kite? It won't kite. The only set up now that seems even worth while anymore is much like the fit that was posted earlier doing remote rep with each other. So they just huddle in close together and all drop out sentry drones. the ships and certainly not the drones don't do much moving. In the set up posted they are not even responsible for tackling. They just assign drones to the FC or target caller (probably in some ECCM fit recon) and all the sentries shoot the target. All the domi's rep each other/power transfer. That's it. In big masses this is ok, but very susceptible in smaller groups to neutralizers and ecm. Also they really don't rep that much compared to bringing boats meant to do logi (ie guardians and Oni's so its kind of meh.) It can be fun because sometime people will engage when they don't see logi on the field, but these are BS so that will give many pause anyways and rr domi's are rather expected. Of course against any real opponent they will just bring a bunch of Naga's, rokh's, mael's etc and just alpha through them depending on numbers. Its a fun but niche fleet concept. It certainly has some utility, but frankly I would rather bring dedicated logi and have the nueting power of a similar number of Geddons. That will make some cap pilots think twice I think about dropping.
My suspicions exactly. Basically a useless line to train into for both PvE and PvP. Thankfully I gave up on Gallente ships a long time ago. Like I mentioned earlier, the best hybrid platform comes from the Caldari, while the best drone platform now comes from the Amarr. I seriously don't get the point of training into Gallente at all at this point unless you want to fly A) Ishtar B) Vindicator C) Macharial (for bonus) |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 00:58:00 -
[449] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.
Actually, the drone tracking and optimal bonus is great for sentry-based anomaly ratting and one of the only good things about the proposed Dominix change is that there might be a reason to fly one instead of an Ishtar now. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
68
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:00:00 -
[450] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.
Ye sbut the application of the drone damage increased , so effectivelly its not THAT muchdifferent from 25%.
In fact I think dominix would be ok if it gained a LOT of lock range bonus. So it could be useful as some sort of hgih buffer tanked sniper with RR. But as I said it need further adjustments for that. |
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
720
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:02:00 -
[451] - Quote
My favorite ship...what are you doing?
Put that utility high on mids so we can make it a Megatalos... good bye Megathron, R.I.P.
EDIT: if you really want to make it a good dmg platform at least with those slots changes just replace the tracking bonus for a +5% dmg on top of 5% ROF. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
360
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:06:00 -
[452] - Quote
Honestly switching around the slot layout makes both ships (Megathron & Hyperion) so much more interesting not only in a ship by ship perspective but also for the entire gameplay...
The Shield Hyperion might be replaced by the Shield Megathron but so what? The Megathron will consume more cap but if you can manage it will tear apart any oposition in a short timespan and such doesn't need much staying power - that lost lowslot will work perfectly for cap boosting, web, eccm or whatever you feel for... The role for prolonged combat suits the Hyperion nicely and you can plate it like you used to do with the Mega or make sustained battleship with good dps and average tank or less/more depening on your fit.
Honestly I rarely appreciated the 5th medslot on the Hyperion and I can hardly wait to try out the new and IMO improved Megathron. If you guys want to complain about something you should look at the pathetic and boring scorpion who barely got any attention at all or the fact that attack battlecruisers are allowed to take a **** down the back on most battleships with suppreme dps and the velocity to dictate range against anything bigger than a cruiser... But the Gallente line is actually nice and inspiring!!
Pinky |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
68
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:08:00 -
[453] - Quote
As a rule of thumb Almsot no good reception on any of the changes. The only change that was somewhat popular was the armageddon one (that is definitely powerful) The apoc one is not badly seen as well, mainly because it only needs a bit more CAP to be viable.
But overal the community spoke CCP, and this time you made a HORRIBLE work .
You are destroyin the identity of races ! That is not easily accepted! Go back to the drawing board. Rethink everythign even if you do not deliver battleship rebalance for this expansion. These shisp are already nto used enough, you need to make them more powerful, not turn them inside out and make silly non existant roles for them.
Increase damage bonuses so that high slots can be freed to other places. Do not try to make ships be all inline with each other. Its important that amarr have more HP than minmatar , while signature be the opposite. Its important that caldari are nhot fast! Its important thatn caldari get significant shield advantage.
Please think in the RACES before the quite silly and without purpose artificial roles of attack and combat. |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:10:00 -
[454] - Quote
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.
Actually, the drone tracking and optimal bonus is great for sentry-based anomaly ratting and one of the only good things about the proposed Dominix change is that there might be a reason to fly one instead of an Ishtar now.
I disagree. In a few days I will be hitting out past 120km with drones. I already hit to 110km and have very good damage application along with decent gun dps. I just feel that the new Domi has a lot of wasted slots now. If there were high or mids that added DPS to the drones then fine, but there is nothing. I really have no reason to fly the Domi. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
110
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:11:00 -
[455] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF.
In case you're wondering:
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
100MN Afterburner II Cap Recharger II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Warp Disruptor II
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239.
- - -
And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons.
tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
816
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:12:00 -
[456] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible. Heat is balanced within the module and not around the ships, and nor are the ships balanced around using heat as it is a last ditch thing and not to be use for the full combat operation. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7411
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:18:00 -
[457] - Quote
is someone going to take the initiative and edit this mess (C++ source, requires boostlib headers), strip out the retribution 1.1 stuff since it's in the latest EFT and add the battleship changes
because i'm really not inclined to pull an allnighter on that mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:21:00 -
[458] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Mariner6 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible. Heat is balanced within the module and not around the ships, and nor are the ships balanced around using heat as it is a last ditch thing and not to be use for the full combat operation.
Heat is not a last ditch thing. It is the single most powerful addition to the fight and should always be used as much as you can all the time. And overheating bonused guns is a big deal because it can often be the difference between winning and losing. Particularly when you drones have been smart bombed or blapped. Yes you can still overheat your unbonused guns but it is not going to push you over that edge particularly against the extra bit of enemy logi. It is a big deal and one of the reasons why the Vexor is such an awesome boat. It simply would not be the same without its bonus guns blasting away, heated. There is simply no equivalent for pure drone damage. NONE. Now if you could overheat your drones....well that would change my tune. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
68
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:21:00 -
[459] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF. In case you're wondering: Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 100MN Afterburner II Cap Recharger II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Warp Disruptor II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239. - - - And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons. tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it.
His point is you can still fit turrets. Even without bonus. SO tis not like you lost 50% of the damage. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
816
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:22:00 -
[460] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF. In case you're wondering: Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 100MN Afterburner II Cap Recharger II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Warp Disruptor II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239. - - - And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons. tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it. This exact fit run on both the old Dominix and the New Dominix Old Dominix 1171 DPS New Dominix 1053 DPS
And just for good measure Old with Heat 1259 DPS New Dominix with head 1124 DPS Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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Ashaton
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:26:00 -
[461] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Please think in the RACES before the quite silly and without purpose artificial roles of attack and combat.
This! Like I said. If CCP is just going to abandon the idea that races have specific identities and tactics then you might as well make the Megathron an armor tanked, long range missile boat at this point.. cause you know why the hell not?! |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
720
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:27:00 -
[462] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:I suppose the percentage of gallente ships in my hangar will go from 10% to 0% now.
Same feeling about what's happening to Gallente BS lineup, and specially my Megas. Think I'm gonna have to reprocess those and build golden lady toys, no more awkward builds: it's armor, fits armor mods, has a TANK and actually DPS is quite good.
Guess you guys will be changing Matar BS fleets for Amarr ones?
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
816
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:34:00 -
[463] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Mariner6 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible. Heat is balanced within the module and not around the ships, and nor are the ships balanced around using heat as it is a last ditch thing and not to be use for the full combat operation. Heat is not a last ditch thing. It is the single most powerful addition to the fight and should always be used as much as you can all the time. And overheating bonused guns is a big deal because it can often be the difference between winning and losing. Particularly when you drones have been smart bombed or blapped. Yes you can still overheat your unbonused guns but it is not going to push you over that edge particularly against the extra bit of enemy logi. It is a big deal and one of the reasons why the Vexor is such an awesome boat. It simply would not be the same without its bonus guns blasting away, heated. There is simply no equivalent for pure drone damage. NONE. Now if you could overheat your drones....well that would change my tune. So when you have lost your drones is the perfect time to over heat huh? That sounds like you are loosing and need a wild card to try to pull out a win, a last ditch effort to make it or break it.
And BTW With regards to the Dominix fit presented above Old Dominix turrets with out heat 586 DPS New Dominix turrets with out heat 469 DPS
Old Dominix turrets with heat 674 DPS New Dominix turrets with heat 539 DPS
That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2) Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
146
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:35:00 -
[464] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF. In case you're wondering: Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 100MN Afterburner II Cap Recharger II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Warp Disruptor II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239. - - - And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons. tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it.
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Those are built into the hull now - don't need to fit them at all - its an almost redundant module as far as the domi is concerned.
Also the combination of hull/armor/shield hps being raised (see original notes) should raise your ehp sufficiently to drop 1 plate, and add an extra DDA II.
|
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:42:00 -
[465] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:[quote=Mariner6][quote=Omnathious Deninard][quote=Mariner6][quote=Omnathious Deninard] That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)
Yep, your right. I stand corrected.
I'd still have to go with the Geddon I think. I mean, that fit seems pretty weak, try ABing into the target to apply dps with no scram or web? Can't really see using that set up though I know that's not your point, and your are correct. And normally when using guns and the kind of tank you have there you use electrons which are further limited by range/fitting issues.
|
Ashaton
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:43:00 -
[466] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
And BTW With regards to the Dominix fit presented above Old Dominix turrets with out heat 586 DPS New Dominix turrets with out heat 469 DPS
Old Dominix turrets with heat 674 DPS New Dominix turrets with heat 539 DPS
That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)
Whoa 25% dps nerf - that's pretty aggressive. Not sure why CCP considers the Dominix so overpowered. |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:44:00 -
[467] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.
Actually, the drone tracking and optimal bonus is great for sentry-based anomaly ratting and one of the only good things about the proposed Dominix change is that there might be a reason to fly one instead of an Ishtar now. I disagree. In a few days I will be hitting out past 120km with drones. I already hit to 110km and have very good damage application along with decent gun dps. I just feel that the new Domi has a lot of wasted slots now. If there were high or mids that added DPS to the drones then fine, but there is nothing. I really have no reason to fly the Domi.
If you're hitting out to 120km then I very much doubt you're using Gardes, and thus are nowhere near "very good damage application."
To clarify my point: a drone tracking bonus means an increase in real-world DPS. The optimal range bonus is just gravy and means that you can use whatever number of Omnidirectional Tracking Links you want (compromising between range/tracking and tank) instead of effecitvely requiring two of them to get your Garde IIs' optimal out past the rats' preferred orbit.
My opinion is mostly rooted in Guristas ratting where drone boats were already excellent, but if anything I expect this will also make using Gardes viable against longer-range rats where it simply wasn't before. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
110
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:46:00 -
[468] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:And BTW With regards to the Dominix fit presented above Old Dominix turrets with out heat 586 DPS New Dominix turrets with out heat 469 DPS
Old Dominix turrets with heat 674 DPS New Dominix turrets with heat 539 DPS
That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2) Yeah, sorry had a derp moment there. Obviously the loss is 25% (loss of the 25% hybrid damage bonus) with the same fittings post-patch. heh :)
|
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
843
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:46:00 -
[469] - Quote
fukier wrote:La Nariz wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Those bonuses are a little lackluster, how about combining the two and adding a control range bonus like the Ishtar? what somethinglike this? Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage, Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed +5% to drone activation range and sentry damage per level
I like that but I'm not sure everyone will buy that the double damage bonus for sentry drones is "fair." To handle those objections it should be a flat KM bonus because the only sort of mods we have for increasing drone range are DLAs and a % based bonus won't do much. Pretty much structure it so at level 5 with a DLA or two you'll be able to cover sniping range. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
817
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:47:00 -
[470] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)
Yep, your right. I stand corrected. I'd still have to go with the Geddon I think. I mean, that fit seems pretty weak, try ABing into the target to apply dps with no scram or web? Can't really see using that set up though I know that's not your point, and your are correct. And normally when using guns and the kind of tank you have there you use electrons which are further limited by range/fitting issues. don't get me wrong in the drone ship vs drone ship the geddon wins, this is the same problem the algos had with the dagroon Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
are34
Tempest Legion
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:48:00 -
[471] - Quote
-1
not happy with these changes, really like the megathron and hyperion where they were at, taking away a lowslot on the mega seems like a big blow, however with the damage bonus if you can live with 1 mag stab and get similer dps then it becomes usefull with that extra mid slot.
the Hyperion was already quite good where it was, if you want to fix active armor tanking simply introduce an armor version of crystal implants, for serious, the AAR wasn't really needed imo, also the 5th mid on the hype is a big aprt of what makes it a viable option, beign able to fit a scram+ web instead of just scram dual cap booster and prop mod
domi changes make sense, but i probably wouldnt use the new one for a very long time if ever... |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
389
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:50:00 -
[472] - Quote
Is it asking too much that you guys take 1 high slot from dominix and trow it in the low? or in the Mid? Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
S0NFANNA
Cause For Concern SCUM.
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 01:55:00 -
[473] - Quote
STOP nerfing battleship drone bays. If a navy vexor can launch 5 heavies a battleship should be able to as well. With these proposed changes there are almost no t1 hulls that can field a full set of heavies.
Battleships with a bay/bandwidth of less than at least 125/125 should be a minority not the majority!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation The Nightingales of Hades
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:01:00 -
[474] - Quote
I'm way late to this party but as I put some of damage down on that total damage done by Hyperions in the last little while I think I should throw my thoughts in.
My current fit is: [Hyperion, Hyperion fit]
Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Reactive Armor Hardener Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Now out here in the land of the great crazies known as W-Space, I find it a good substitution when I don't want to risk a T3 or need to do something risky solo. It deals out 800dps on Void and reps 800 before heat or Pill. It works alright and I'ma fan of it. With the new changes it looks like I'l be dropping the web for another IN EANM, which will most certainly amp up that tank, but I really worry that unless it's my size or bigger, I won't be able to take on anything. There's no tracking bonus so it's already hard to hit small fast movers even with a web.
Since it'll only really be able to hunt big stuff, I say embrace that. Make it the battleship hunter. Someone else mentioned making it the attack battleship instead of the combat one. That's a great idea, kick up it's speed so it can run down the other battleships, latch on via scram and beat them into a pulp. Being able to run a full rack of Neutrons or even split Neutron / Ion would help so a grid bump would be great. That or an increase in the damage bonus. I'd be willing to go down to 75m3 drone bay for that. Running heavies feels weird, the Hyperion should be handling things personally, not delegating the role to a pack of drones.
I'm a game developer myself and when in doubt, always go back to the lore for inspiration. Recognizing the necessity for a blaster platform to round out their high-end arsenal, the Federation Navy brought in top-level talent to work on the Hyperion. The result: one of the most lethal and versatile gunboats ever to take to the dark skies. That's the description. The Hyperion will never be versatile, that's the Domi, always has been (Love those changes fyi) but it can be lethal. You want a fleet ship, go grab the Mega or Domi, you want a boat that can chase down and deliver a savage beating on one specific ship, make it the Hyperion. Blaster Platform, Lethal Gunboat. It's been written |
XjimbobX
Confederated Armed Traders Tribal Band
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:01:00 -
[475] - Quote
Honestly in my opinion (I'm no expert) take away the active tank bonus of the hypo and the new drone bonus on the dom. Now you replace them with ANY other bonus in the game, and I mean any (Insert a very small amount of sarcasm). People would probably be happier lol. Having an active tank bonus kind of pigeon holes you into one fit. Also, having double bonuses probably scares people into thinking they have limited options in fitting a ship as well. I know I personally have never cared for the active tank bonus. That is just my 2 cents. Also put the mega back plz and Thanks. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
110
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:02:00 -
[476] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Mariner6 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)
Yep, your right. I stand corrected. I'd still have to go with the Geddon I think. I mean, that fit seems pretty weak, try ABing into the target to apply dps with no scram or web? Can't really see using that set up though I know that's not your point, and your are correct. And normally when using guns and the kind of tank you have there you use electrons which are further limited by range/fitting issues. don't get me wrong in the drone ship vs drone ship the geddon wins, this is the same problem the algos had with the dagroon Just give Domi +1 drone controlled per level and remove +10% damage/level and replace with +10% hp and tracking (or optimal)/level. This would give Domi a net +2.5 drones worth of damage and keep it as unique to the Geddon as the Geddon is to the Domi with its neut range bonus.
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
720
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:05:00 -
[477] - Quote
I really don't get it with these changes.
One day you guys change Cane because "omg too many neuts kill neuts" and say "we want less neut-cap warfare- tr+ál+ál+á".
The day after you throw at our face an Amarr Drone boat, better than Gallente one, that WILL be better at neuting stuff than Bhaalgorn (atm and as it stands), then on top you change the +5% dmg on Mega for +5% ROF which indeed on paper means a bit plus dps but, welp no, not if you need to use lower dmg ammo because you want to shoot more than 5 rounds.
Gallente was already very fragile vs neuts but with these changes you just don't undock at the sight of a golden dildo 2 regions around, because who will be idiot enough to not have at least one dedicated cap neut ship on his BS gang/small fleet (larger fleets it's even worst, capitals will now die really really fast if you keep those changes)?
Ho yeah, you can always undock a shield Mega in shield fleet for lols/snowflakes and a mocking link on GD, but that's all.
So is this all about Gallente? -you guys really hate this race at this point? *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
21
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:11:00 -
[478] - Quote
[quote=CCP Rise]Quote:
First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade.
And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important.
As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
so great I have the slots for a tank but no slots left for mag stabs? armour reps? Don''t forget the mission runners who can't have fracking logi following them everywhere.
First you killed the Tristan...next? Oh Great Bird of the Galaxy does no one ever read the news? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:15:00 -
[479] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:It is when the ship's biggest flaw on live is its lack of respectable tank. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the complaint then. The solution for the mega you responded to basically built the missing magstab into the bonus to make up for the relocated low slot, so unless you were fitting a 7 low slot tank how is the ship really missing out in that case? |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:17:00 -
[480] - Quote
Why in gods name did you remove the hyperions 5th mid?
"Well this ship is barely viable with 5 mids so lets take one away." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
|
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:23:00 -
[481] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:I'm way late to this party but as I put some of damage down on that total damage done by Hyperions in the last little while I think I should throw my thoughts in.
My current fit is: [Hyperion, Hyperion fit]
Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Reactive Armor Hardener Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Now out here in the land of the great crazies known as W-Space, I find it a good substitution when I don't want to risk a T3 or need to do something risky solo. It deals out 800dps on Void and reps 800 before heat or Pill. It works alright and I'ma fan of it. With the new changes it looks like I'l be dropping the web for another IN EANM, which will most certainly amp up that tank, but I really worry that unless it's my size or bigger, I won't be able to take on anything. There's no tracking bonus so it's already hard to hit small fast movers even with a web.
Since it'll only really be able to hunt big stuff, I say embrace that. Make it the battleship hunter. Someone else mentioned making it the attack battleship instead of the combat one. That's a great idea, kick up it's speed so it can run down the other battleships, latch on via scram and beat them into a pulp. Being able to run a full rack of Neutrons or even split Neutron / Ion would help so a grid bump would be great. That or an increase in the damage bonus. I'd be willing to go down to 75m3 drone bay for that. Running heavies feels weird, the Hyperion should be handling things personally, not delegating the role to a pack of drones.
I'm a game developer myself and when in doubt, always go back to the lore for inspiration. Recognizing the necessity for a blaster platform to round out their high-end arsenal, the Federation Navy brought in top-level talent to work on the Hyperion. The result: one of the most lethal and versatile gunboats ever to take to the dark skies. That's the description. The Hyperion will never be versatile, that's the Domi, always has been (Love those changes fyi) but it can be lethal. You want a fleet ship, go grab the Mega or Domi, you want a boat that can chase down and deliver a savage beating on one specific ship, make it the Hyperion. Blaster Platform, Lethal Gunboat. It's been written
It still needs to be reworked. It might be something as simple as (+10% Large Hybrid Turret Optimal Range Per level).
It'd give it better blaster projection, and the above ship won't work cause it doesn't have any mobility (no mwd, no af). The Jump Drive won't cut it less it was more of a rail fit (or the Dominix). What needs to happen....
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses 10% large hybrid turret Optimal Range and 5% Rate of Fire per level.
Its a battleship. It either needs to be Fast to get in close, or have the range for it to actually hit things. As it has no tracking bonus, it'll be more difficult for this ship to apply damage (then again thats why people web, target paint and tracking enhance their ship). |
Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:24:00 -
[482] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote: Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps. False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you. I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF. In case you're wondering: Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 100MN Afterburner II Cap Recharger II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Warp Disruptor II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239. - - - And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons. tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it. This exact fit run on both the old Dominix and the New Dominix Old Dominix 1171 DPS New Dominix 1053 DPS And just for good measure Old with Heat 1259 DPS New Dominix with head 1124 DPS That's a pretty awful Domi fit. I hope you didn't try PVPing with that. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
122
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:26:00 -
[483] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Heavy drones mentioned with the Dominix.
I am concerned that CCP still seem to think anyone really uses them. As well as fighters for carriers. And that's the problem. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3027
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:33:00 -
[484] - Quote
Here's my in depth analysis of the problem regarding Gallente Battleships.
I will focus on one of the most important roles, if not the primary role, of Battleships - Fleet Line DPS. I say this because Battleships are far too vulnerable to smaller ships to be viable solo, and are of limited use in small gang engagements, where they are outshined by Battlecruisers in most aspects. Their roles basically boil down to fleet warfare and PvE.
Fleet combat has some rather unique properties that limit the viability of certain weapon systems. Because of the high mobility and ever changing nature of fleet combat, with constant MWD pulsing, fluctuating ranges, and very common on-grid warps for relocation, drones find themselves marginally useful. Sentries are only viable at one position, and mobile drones will spend more time flying towards primaries that pop before they get there than actually doing anything of use. Because of this fact, drone DPS will not be included in the following analysis.
Another such property is the ranges at which fleet combat take place. Short range combat simply is not a viable option, for two reasons - fleets are not singular points, so when each ships optimal is in the 10-15km range, any primary called is likely outside a good chunk of the fleet's optimal (or even range altogether), severely limiting a fleet's ability to coordinate and apply it's full power. The second reason that short range fleets are not really a viable option is bubbles - when bubbling your enemy means bubbling yourself as well, the tactical advantage they represent is severely diminished.
Because of this, fleet combat tends to take place at medium to long ranges. Long rage combat is dominated by the "Tier 3" Battlecruisers, as their layouts, bonuses and speed allow them to kite while applying high damage far more effectively than any Battleship could ever hope to. This brings us to the aspect of PvP where Battleships truly shine - medium range line DPS. In this role, a ship must be able to dish out severe punishment while having enough staying power for friendly logistics to keep it up. The latter involves having very high, balanced resist profiles. Battleships fill this role better than any other subcap class in EVE, with the possible exception of Tech 3 Cruisers in very specific cases.
Now, let's look at the stats on three common ships used to fill this role: the Alpha Maelstrom, Fleet Rokh and Hellcat Abaddon.
Alpha Maelstrom: DPS: 600 @ 40km, 400 @ 70km EHP: 123k Resists: 71 / 77 / 83 / 70 Bonus Perk: Extreme Alpha
This ship is an all around solid choice, even with a completely wasted ship bonus. I won't go into too much depth, but resist bonuses are completely superior to active bonuses because they benefit both active and buffer tanks. Let's lose them if we can.
Fleet Rokh: DPS: 540 @ 60km, 300 @ 140km EHP: 133k Resists: 78 / 83 / 73 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extreme Range Flexibility
This ship not only has a fantastic tank, but it can actually compete with Tier 3 Battlecruisers that attempt to harass it. It fills its role incredibly well, and there is a reason the HBC relies on it primarily today.
Hellcat Abaddon: DPS: 650 @ 60km EHP: 125k Resists: 68 / 79 / 79 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extremely High Tracking
This is not as common today, but served its role as a line DPS Battleship not long ago. Its tank is roughly average for the role, resist profile decent, and its range is severely capped, but its tracking is so high it can dismantle support ships in the hostile fleet without relying on friendly support to do so. Not to be underestimated.
Gallente has not had a fleet-viable Battleship for many years now. Because the Hyperion's slot layout and bonuses are so terrible, trying to be in between two roles and as a result filling neither even remotely well, it simply is not an option. The Dominix is too drone-focused to be fleet viable except in very specific roles. That leaves only the Megathron, which simply cannot even hope to match the stats represented by the other three races' line DPS Battleships. This is the best it can do, using railguns for very obvious reasons:
Megathron: DPS: 495 @ 40km, 370 @ 70km EHP: 105k Resists: 71 / 63 / 63 / 49 Bonus Perk: None
This ship is using a CPU rig, yet still cannot fit hardeners, meaning it is incapable of overheating its tank in case of being called primary or being bombed. This is already a liability brought on by its low CPU. Its tank may have some meat to it, but it remains very low by Battleship standards, and its resist profile is absolutely abysmal. This makes it extremely difficult to keep up under hostile fire, and gives it a resist hole very easy for hostiles to exploit. And the final nail in the coffin is its completely lackluster DPS - while it can do somewhat respectable DPS at 40km (it is still low), it completely falls off the radar any farther out.
Tiericide was an opportunity to fix this problem. By removing the whole tier system, a formerly tier 2 Battleship like the Megathron could be elevated to the fleet effectiveness every other race has. All it would take is another lowslot, potentially an 8th turret slot (though this is less important). If I had been the one doing the first draft, it would have lost the utility high, gained a low, and had its base armor HP buffed somewhat.
Instead, we got a Megathron trying really hard to be a Hyperion, and as a result failing horrendously for the exact same reasons today's Hyperion does - the slot layout does not allow it to excel in any role. It is either a fast shield tanked bullseye or a fast armor tanked bullseye. This is frankly a terrible direction to take this ship.
So, CCP, all I ask of you is this: let Gallente have a line DPS Battleship. Please. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Inepsa1987
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:38:00 -
[485] - Quote
Domi gets blasted. Hybrid damage bonus should have been increased instead of removed
Or added a tracking bonus to the %5 damage. Spaceship Pilot. |
Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:43:00 -
[486] - Quote
Adriel Malakai wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why.
First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade.
And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important.
As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos? The problem with the extra mid is that you don't gain a lot from having it when using an armor tank relative to the extra low. Where the mid really helps is when you're trying to shield tank the mega, but you're pretty much always better off with a shield talos than a shield mega. So the question is whether or not that extra mid slot is actually worth having over the extra low in most situations. In my opinion, the answer is no by an extremely wide margin.
Nearly the perfect answer Adriel , I would also like to point out as others have, a ROF bonus to get this "similar damage" is also going to cost us more cap. So it's a net loss of some dmg, some cap and some armor for an increase of 7ms to the base speed and a mid sot that we really didn't ask for. And you wonder why we aren't pleased with the changes. |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:49:00 -
[487] - Quote
Montevius Williams wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal. I really wish you guys would think outside the box when it comes to your ships. Please read the numberous drone revamp threads instead of just making up stuff on the fly "Lets just make all drone battleships have equal drone bays!! That will fix everything!" How about passively repair drone bays for dedicated drone ships? Drone pilots cant overheat drones, so how do we squeeze extra damage from drones like turret pilots can? It's almost like you guys are scared to make cool ships/bonuses etc.
I'm guessing there preparing a drone revamp soon. Most likely coming up with drone subsystem rigs, giving them a secondary ability, like a heavy webber ogre with guns, or a target painting hammerhead with guns, only equitable on ships that put the drone subsystem mod in their high slot.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
818
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:51:00 -
[488] - Quote
My last post before bed Hyperion will be ok when armor tanking get fixed (and rep bonuses reduce cap also) Megathron looks good IMO Dominix needs some help, targeting range too short to use the ship to its fullest extend, needs +15km targeting range and needs +100% drone control range as a Role Bonus Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Vadeim Rizen
The Pro Choice Exodus.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:54:00 -
[489] - Quote
Dear CCP:
**** this game **** you all. Play your ******* game before making these stupid ass changes. Keep nerfing ships to the point where they cant kill anything or require no piloting skill. Nerf TE's, nerf drakes, nerf small gang and solo pvp, nerf everything. If something has the ability to kill something, just nerf it... that way nobody dies right?
If you want to improve this game, talk to people outside of the HBC and CFC. Yes they account for ~ 20k subscriptions, but I log on and see 50k active during the USTZ.
YOU CAN'T NERF THE BLOB! Stop trying! If you have 50+ of anything, it's going to be dangerous! The drake has been nerfed to **** for no reason other than null-sec drake blobs... The way you guys are nerfing links only benefits the blob, as small gang and solo guys arent going to be able to use links against gangs that can simply because they are larger entities....
Blah blah blah... I could rant for hours but it has become blatantly apparent that you're all retards and are turning my favorite game into a piece of ****.
( In before nobody can kill anyone because DPS and tank on everything is reduced to 0 )
Keep nerfing PVP and you'll lose thousands of subscriptions, guaranteed. 6 from me alone. |
CaptainFalcon07
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:02:00 -
[490] - Quote
As a player with Gallente BS V and Large Hybrid V with high drone skills, I am rather unimpressed by the changes.
The removal of a lowslot on the megathron feels like a nerf to me. The megathron is usually always armor tanked due to the utility you need for the mods as a blaster boat. I'd rather imo you remove a high slot and move it to the mid slot rather than using a low slot.
The Hyperion is still crap imo. Armor Repair bonuses are fail for a large blaster ship. You have cap using guns, with heavy cap using utility, and with cap using tank. There's no realistic way you can provide cap to everything running on that ship without burning all your cap boosters. |
|
smokeydapot
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:09:00 -
[491] - Quote
Mega Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
How in divinity's edge....................
Wait what...................
Have you been at my stash...................
Can I get some ?
And here I was thinking I was smoking some serious stuff.
On a more serious note a mega that you are calling an " explicitly attack role BS " only gets to launch 4 heavy drones ???
Return my stash leave it be and never return or touch it ever ever again its made you so silly i'm loosing all confidence in what you are doing not just to the mega but ALL the battleship hulls.
Bad CCP No Bad CCP NO |
Vess Starfire
Justified Chaos
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:11:00 -
[492] - Quote
+1 to us needing a fleet BS. Here's a suggestion: mega becomes combat role while Hyperion becomes attack. Mega is quite similar to armor Rokh, but more DPS and less tank (dmg + rof hull bonuses). The Hyperion gets better agility and a tracking bonus instead of DPS.
But I think we need something else before these changes.... armor tanking 2.0. The Hyperion will be the only t1 to use LAR/LAAR. And "armor tanking 2.0" will potentially totally change how these modules work. In light of this how useful is it to think about Hyperion now?
(And if armor tanking 2.0 doesn't arrive with odyssey I will throw out my Myrms and bow to Amarr supremacy)
PS, will the 5->4% resist nerf be propagated to all hulls or is it BS only? |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
215
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:12:00 -
[493] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche. I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why. First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade. And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important. As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
Viable as in still able to fit, yes. Viable as in will it be overshadowed by the shield tank, yes. Viable as in people will fly it, no. If this is suppose to be a shield tanking ship then move more slots into the meds and be done with it. If it is suppose to be armor tanking ships, give us more speed and our low slots back. Adjust the high slots if you need to.
|
pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:12:00 -
[494] - Quote
Dear CCP,
here is my two cents,
I know you "want to keep the active armor rep" why not move it off the Hyp period. It is not working for the ship at all.
Give the armor rep bonus to the Domi, Increase the powergrid to the Domi problem solved with the "lets keep active armor bonus".
Now that is out of the way
make the Mega the combat battleship leave it mostly the same but adjust the hit points
Make the Hyperion your attack Battleship, keep the Mids, keep the lows, Reduce its mass, Make it fast
Tracking bonus Speed bonus or Mass reduction bonus
Problem solved
your welcome! |
Isaiah Harms
Buccaneer's Brotherhood
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:15:00 -
[495] - Quote
Dear CCP.
The best thing you can do right now is profile who you listen to.
Personally I'd advise you STOP listening to the babes in 0.0 who can't do math. START listening to the hardened pvp veterans in lowsecurity space who actually know their ships and depend on every detail of them to enjoy daring pvp.
When I hear TEST pilots telling me a battleship is not viable as a close range ship, only as MID-Range pvp... well I instantly put him in the category of the unwashed heathens who think blobbery makes them smart.
Fact is this: More PVP gets done in lowsec and Empire space on a daily basis than is ever done in 0.0 ESPECIALLY with battleships.
Fact #2: Anybody who says Gallente aren't good ships doesn't realize they're the best small-gang/solo pvp ships in-game - and CHERISHED for that role.
If you want to nerf them into obsolescence.... keep going.
Reccomendations:
- Drone Dominix? Are you joking? What should I put in my highslots? Energy Neutralizers? Thought you were wanting to "avoid overlap." Regardless of how you look at it, without the blaster bonuses this ship won't have the DPS to kill an Amarr BS. So much for solo.
- Emasculated Local Rep Hyperion: Beauty of a ship. Shame it won't be flown anymore. Was looking forward to flying that one too. Without enough mid-slots to keep reppers going it will be unviable as a solo ship. Oh... Hyps are solo boats. Their EHP for fleet action sucks.
- Wimpy Megathron. For such a powerful name this ship seems like it's turning into a joke. Shields for a fleet ship? Speed? CCP, this boat used to be the most feared armor based damage dealer to encounter in lowsec. Your only option was to maintain range on it. Well.... Now I guess I'll just neutralize it out with my Win-a-geddon.
Point is this: Seems to me these changes will effectively unbalance the Gallente in any 1v1 / small gang action vs. the Amarr lineup.
Since they're not used for fleet work I must ask
WHAT ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR?
When you can answer this first question maybe you'll be able to design a good lineup for Gallente.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3029
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:18:00 -
[496] - Quote
Isaiah Harms wrote:Dear CCP. Fact is this: More PVP gets done in lowsec and Empire space on a daily basis than is ever done in 0.0 ESPECIALLY with battleships.
Lol.
Also, you are wrong. More PvP happens in Nullsec than High, Low and WHs combined.
And if you think a BS is going to outperform a well flown BC in a gang, I don't even know what to say. Regarding short range BSes not being viable in fleets, did you read my post? Have you ever been a part of a fleet engagement?
HINT: I was not talking about sitting on an undock / gate with a half dozen buddies in interceptors and BCs really hoping someone stupid passes through. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Isaiah Harms
Buccaneer's Brotherhood
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:21:00 -
[497] - Quote
pooper stain wrote:Dear CCP,
here is my two cents,
I know you "want to keep the active armor rep" why not move it off the Hyp period. It is not working for the ship at all.
Give the armor rep bonus to the Domi, Increase the powergrid to the Domi problem solved with the "lets keep active armor bonus".
Now that is out of the way
make the Mega the combat battleship leave it mostly the same but adjust the hit points
Make the Hyperion your attack Battleship, keep the Mids, keep the lows, Reduce its mass, Make it fast
Tracking bonus Speed bonus or Mass reduction bonus
Problem solved
your welcome!
I second this. Wasn't "High Speed Steersman" the certificate you received when you qualified to fly Hyperion? Make it the fast ship. Give the Drone Dominix the Repper bonus. |
Isaiah Harms
Buccaneer's Brotherhood
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:24:00 -
[498] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Isaiah Harms wrote:Dear CCP. Fact is this: More PVP gets done in lowsec and Empire space on a daily basis than is ever done in 0.0 ESPECIALLY with battleships.
Lol. Also, you are wrong. More PvP happens in Nullsec than High, Low and WHs combined. And if you think a BS is going to outperform a well flown BC in a gang, I don't even know what to say.
Incorrect. Your fights are larger in scale. Fewer in frequency. In comparison to Empire you use battleships very rarely. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3029
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:27:00 -
[499] - Quote
Isaiah Harms wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Isaiah Harms wrote:Dear CCP. Fact is this: More PVP gets done in lowsec and Empire space on a daily basis than is ever done in 0.0 ESPECIALLY with battleships.
Lol. Also, you are wrong. More PvP happens in Nullsec than High, Low and WHs combined. And if you think a BS is going to outperform a well flown BC in a gang, I don't even know what to say. Incorrect. Your fights are larger in scale. Fewer in frequency. In comparison to Empire you use battleships very rarely.
I ask again - when was the last time you were in a fleet fight or in null?
I mean, simply in the system I base out of, there is pretty much always 1-6 hostiles present and a fight happening somewhere. Nullsec is pretty damn heavy on the harassment and small scale PvP. A day without a few gangs of 20 or so passing through and several dozen guys roaming your local area is an uncommonly quiet day.
Fleet warfare may be far less common, but it is nowhere near the only kind of PvP that happens in nullsec. I'd argue the most common is small groups of bombers hunting constantly. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Isaiah Harms
Buccaneer's Brotherhood
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:30:00 -
[500] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Isaiah Harms wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Isaiah Harms wrote:Dear CCP. Fact is this: More PVP gets done in lowsec and Empire space on a daily basis than is ever done in 0.0 ESPECIALLY with battleships.
Lol. Also, you are wrong. More PvP happens in Nullsec than High, Low and WHs combined. And if you think a BS is going to outperform a well flown BC in a gang, I don't even know what to say. Incorrect. Your fights are larger in scale. Fewer in frequency. In comparison to Empire you use battleships very rarely. I ask again - when was the last time you were in a fleet fight or in null? I mean, simply in the system I base out of, there is pretty much always 1-6 hostiles present and a fight happening somewhere. Nullsec is pretty damn heavy on the harassment and small scale PvP. A day without a few gangs of 20 or so passing through and several dozen guys roaming your local area is an uncommonly quiet day. Fleet warfare may be far less common, but it is nowhere near the only kind of PvP that happens in nullsec. I'd argue the most common is small groups of bombers hunting constantly.
Dear TESTie. Subject is rebalancing battleships. Not whether you measure up to my knee.
Since you asked: http://www.buccaneers.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16756649 |
|
Shoo Ting
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:32:00 -
[501] - Quote
Enough talk about null/low/etc.
Lets get back to topic.
I think the changes to the Gallente BS is overall bad.
The hyperion is even worse at local repping due to the fact you can no longer fit enough cap boosters to sustain it.
The Megathron got hurt badly by the loss of a lowslot.
The Dominix could use more drone damage 10 -> 15% per level. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3029
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:33:00 -
[502] - Quote
Isaiah Harms wrote: Dear TESTie. Subject is rebalancing battleships. Not whether you measure up to my knee.
Go back and read my analysis post. Read the words, don't skim it. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:36:00 -
[503] - Quote
The issue with the new ship re-balancing for drone boats, is that by buffing the cruisers and BC to 125 bandwidth, there's no more space to go higher when you hit the battleship lines.
So you either need to make some new, bigger drones that BS with bandwidths over 125 could make use of, or give the Domi and the new Geddon more than the standard 10% drone damage/hp bonus.
I'd suggest 12.5% and 15% for the Geddon and Domi respectively, to keep up with the trend in the lower ship class drone boats for each race, where Gallente get more bandwidth and Amarr get a larger drone bay.
|
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation The Nightingales of Hades
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:46:00 -
[504] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:BayneNothos wrote:I'm way late to this party but as I put some of damage down on that total damage done by Hyperions in the last little while I think I should throw my thoughts in.
My current fit is: [Hyperion, Hyperion fit]
Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Reactive Armor Hardener Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Now out here in the land of the great crazies known as W-Space, I find it a good substitution when I don't want to risk a T3 or need to do something risky solo. It deals out 800dps on Void and reps 800 before heat or Pill. It works alright and I'ma fan of it. With the new changes it looks like I'l be dropping the web for another IN EANM, which will most certainly amp up that tank, but I really worry that unless it's my size or bigger, I won't be able to take on anything. There's no tracking bonus so it's already hard to hit small fast movers even with a web.
Since it'll only really be able to hunt big stuff, I say embrace that. Make it the battleship hunter. Someone else mentioned making it the attack battleship instead of the combat one. That's a great idea, kick up it's speed so it can run down the other battleships, latch on via scram and beat them into a pulp. Being able to run a full rack of Neutrons or even split Neutron / Ion would help so a grid bump would be great. That or an increase in the damage bonus. I'd be willing to go down to 75m3 drone bay for that. Running heavies feels weird, the Hyperion should be handling things personally, not delegating the role to a pack of drones.
I'm a game developer myself and when in doubt, always go back to the lore for inspiration. Recognizing the necessity for a blaster platform to round out their high-end arsenal, the Federation Navy brought in top-level talent to work on the Hyperion. The result: one of the most lethal and versatile gunboats ever to take to the dark skies. That's the description. The Hyperion will never be versatile, that's the Domi, always has been (Love those changes fyi) but it can be lethal. You want a fleet ship, go grab the Mega or Domi, you want a boat that can chase down and deliver a savage beating on one specific ship, make it the Hyperion. Blaster Platform, Lethal Gunboat. It's been written It still needs to be reworked. It might be something as simple as (+10% Large Hybrid Turret Optimal Range Per level). It'd give it better blaster projection, and the above ship won't work cause it doesn't have any mobility (no mwd, no af). The Jump Drive won't cut it less it was more of a rail fit (or the Dominix). What needs to happen.... Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses 10% large hybrid turret Optimal Range and 5% Rate of Fire per level. Its a battleship. It either needs to be Fast to get in close, or have the range for it to actually hit things. As it has no tracking bonus, it'll be more difficult for this ship to apply damage (then again thats why people web, target paint and tracking enhance their ship).
The only reason I have a MJD because I live in W space and thus tend to fight on Wormholes. MWD not super needed. If it was anywhere else it'd be a MWD. I'd much rather it just be faster (fastest even? take that minmatar!) to chase down rather than an optimal range boost. Damage projection Hybrid ships are Caldari, no need to step on their toes. MWD + Fast + active reps = chasing down opponents Just look at the model, It has GIANT BOOSTERS on it and the guns are at the front, none of this pew pewing of the port side, it's a hunter designed to burn down opponents and run them through. |
Explosivesonhand
Mind The Recoil The Mockers AO
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 04:07:00 -
[505] - Quote
[ |
Makalu Zarya
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 04:08:00 -
[506] - Quote
So lets just say I'm going to ignore what you are doing to the hyperion and the megathron for the moment (neither of which is very smart I might add) and lets focus on the domi.
Currently a 3 Drone Damage Amp. domi does 750 dps gardes, that is just with gardes. That's all good and fine, until you look at the new changes that you are proposing to it. 50% better tracking, 50% optimal and falloff of drones.
So what you trying to say is that now, domi will do 750 dps at 78km with gardes, while having 75% tracking of the zealot with close range ammo? As well as be able to hit wo 150+63 with bouncers for over 650 dps, with tracking of 0.03?
Not to mention that if you don't want to hit out that far and don't have to fit 4 drone link augmentors you can fit all sort of other goodies in high slots, totally op if you ask me.
oh and leave the megathron as it is. |
Tehmajor
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 05:12:00 -
[507] - Quote
Suddenly im excited about that fact that ive begun training for amarr battleships. im confused about these changes, were you trying to improve these ships? cause as far as i see there's no reason for me to fly the domi anymore when the geddon dose the same job and has the added bonus of the Neuts, giving the domi a 12.5% even a 15% damage bonus on drones and sentries would relay cement it as the drone battleship.
the Mega will continue to be rarely used in a fleet that has half a brain sure it dose more dps now (that's debatable) with its old bonuses and a buff in resistances it would make a reletivle good fast sniper as every other race seems to have a ship capable of engaging with decent alpha damage from long distance.
the Hyperion ........ was average to begin with and the state of active amour tanking makes this ship even less attractive and the removal of a mid slot ..... just lol. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
389
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 05:15:00 -
[508] - Quote
CCP, Pay attention to this!
Give Hiperion also a 7,5% bonus to received repair amount, so it can also be used on fleet! Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2385
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 05:22:00 -
[509] - Quote
Sad mega panda :( |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 05:27:00 -
[510] - Quote
Rise:
One of the reasons why the Hyperion has some so mutch dmg is that it's mostly used in low / highsec where your more likly to stay alive and have to deal dmg over longer time becaus people fit active tanking there (funny enught as the Hyperion is active tank itself)
and out in 0.0 we go mostly for Instant blap stuff and stop shooting targets if they recive reps
it's a dps argument vs a alpha arguemnt saying that the Hyperion is one of the most dmg dealing bs in the game. I expect to see the 0.0 ships up top on the list thoe becaus the scale of battles is simply bigger thoe In 0.0 that is.
I don't see any way of using either the hyperion nor the Megathron in 0.0 doctrine fleets so I guess they will just have to be used in highsec / low sec as per usual since a Tier 3 BC is more effecient in 0.0 becaus it does more dmg and has the better speed / get away ability... so yeah that's still the better roaming ship pretty mutch no matter what :(
I think the real problem is that you NEED to actually use 3 reppers on the the hyperion to actually make the rep amount viable vs a small gang. (or 2 if just 1 or 2 targets) I guess with +1 low it's simply a better bait ship now thoe the real problem is here that becaus these ships have these bonuses it's so insanely obvious that they are often used for such and there in lies the real problem with these ships being usable for PvP (same thing with if you see a Hictor or Damnation or something prowling around you just know it's bait by default)
don't know if I made suffeciently sense in this post in what I think the problems are with these ships but basicly I wisht he Hyperion / Mega had more viable options for 0.0 Warfare.
as for the Domi - Woohoo! Super Mini-Boot Carrier doctrine anyone? (possibly OP but I think it may atleast have counters) |
|
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 05:29:00 -
[511] - Quote
I have no idea how the Hyperion got there. I haven't seen a pvp Hype for ages. |
Lequin Rinah
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 05:45:00 -
[512] - Quote
I think I'll start training Amarr. There is nothing in the Gallente BS list i want to fly now. |
Tara Read
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
316
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 05:54:00 -
[513] - Quote
*takes deep breath* Okay.... before I give my opinion here I just gotta take a deep breath and relax.....
Alright. CCP we need to have a heart to heart here right now. I personally grew up on the Megathron. It has always been my favorite ship and one I could count on like an old friend. Sure we've had good times (like 90% webs ) and bad times (like now) but still, I have held a special place in my heart for this beast.
So MUCH so I even bought the damned model off the Eve Store! That's right! Your ORIGINAL model was SO sexy, so damned NASTY (Vindi anyone?) that I spent 70 USD on a model and it sat on my shelf until my cat knocked it off. But that's another story.
Here you guys have a chance to really work over Gallente. I mean you do! But instead ALL of these proposed changes are just utterly ********! You know.... some of us don't WANT a shield Megathron. Some of us want our brawler back. Some of us want to plate these behemoth's to the gills, load up some Void and have one hell of a sadistic smile as we lay burst after burst right into our enemies faces....
Do you not even REMEMBER what Gallente or blaster boats are supposed to do? Who gives a flying **** about agility? That's what designated tackle is for, or webs, scrams etc. But Jesus Christ don't sit here and castrate an already niche ship type in which Amarr ALWAYS does better....
I'd even go so far as to beg and plead for a web bonus on the regular Mega hull but yeah that'll happen in the next decade...
AND let's remember that closing in on your target is only half the issue. being able to SURVIVE the engagement is the other half! What in the hell is an extra mid going to accomplish? An MJD? I can already FIT two props on the Mega with a rack of Ions and be fine....
But not if you gimp the DPS and the ships ability to tank. Sadly with these changes you only make everyone's cross train into Amarr even more assured and sadly make the dust on our already aging Mega's even more thick.
The Hyperion? if it's not shield gank fitted well you've guaranteed that's all it ever will be which tbh I don't mind a 1600 dps gank blaster boat. Just take off the stupid rep bonus. It's utterly useless. Ever tried to fly the Hyp with ONE cap booster and dual rep? Good Luck when every ship you engage has a neut on it now....
But I digress. Mega's need some love. Not gimping. Hyperion's need to just be taken out of the game at this point since you are just gimping their niche roll already. And the Domi? Thanks for messing with it JUST like the Typhoon...
Train Amarr everyone....
Oh and go back to the older Mega model already. Please... And BTW you are making Gallente UGLY with the new graphics updates...
I think I'm done ranting here. ffs.... ccp.. |
Yuan Randolph
Die Valkyrja Pangu Coalition
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:07:00 -
[514] - Quote
About CPU of megathron:
Now the CPU amount is 550tf without any skills.
but...
550tf (+25)?
maybe...
575tf (+25)? |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:08:00 -
[515] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat. I see your plan, but people would just fit shield tank on Mega and call it a day. As for me, I dont see anthing criminal in that. Versatility is good I say. |
Kyo Avanta
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:11:00 -
[516] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:*takes deep breath* Okay.... before I give my opinion here I just gotta take a deep breath and relax..... Alright. CCP we need to have a heart to heart here right now. I personally grew up on the Megathron. It has always been my favorite ship and one I could count on like an old friend. Sure we've had good times (like 90% webs ) and bad times (like now) but still, I have held a special place in my heart for this beast. So MUCH so I even bought the damned model off the Eve Store! That's right! Your ORIGINAL model was SO sexy, so damned NASTY (Vindi anyone?) that I spent 70 USD on a model and it sat on my shelf until my cat knocked it off. But that's another story. Here you guys have a chance to really work over Gallente. I mean you do! But instead ALL of these proposed changes are just utterly ********! You know.... some of us don't WANT a shield Megathron. Some of us want our brawler back. Some of us want to plate these behemoth's to the gills, load up some Void and have one hell of a sadistic smile as we lay burst after burst right into our enemies faces.... Do you not even REMEMBER what Gallente or blaster boats are supposed to do? Who gives a flying **** about agility? That's what designated tackle is for, or webs, scrams etc. But Jesus Christ don't sit here and castrate an already niche ship type in which Amarr ALWAYS does better.... I'd even go so far as to beg and plead for a web bonus on the regular Mega hull but yeah that'll happen in the next decade... AND let's remember that closing in on your target is only half the issue. being able to SURVIVE the engagement is the other half! What in the hell is an extra mid going to accomplish? An MJD? I can already FIT two props on the Mega with a rack of Ions and be fine.... But not if you gimp the DPS and the ships ability to tank. Sadly with these changes you only make everyone's cross train into Amarr even more assured and sadly make the dust on our already aging Mega's even more thick. The Hyperion? if it's not shield gank fitted well you've guaranteed that's all it ever will be which tbh I don't mind a 1600 dps gank blaster boat. Just take off the stupid rep bonus. It's utterly useless. Ever tried to fly the Hyp with ONE cap booster and dual rep? Good Luck when every ship you engage has a neut on it now.... But I digress. Mega's need some love. Not gimping. Hyperion's need to just be taken out of the game at this point since you are just gimping their niche roll already. And the Domi? Thanks for messing with it JUST like the Typhoon... Train Amarr everyone.... Oh and go back to the older Mega model already. Please... And BTW you are making Gallente UGLY with the new graphics updates... I think I'm done ranting here. ffs.... CCP.... Of all the things you changed my Mega... forever sadface...
This!
Seriously who came up with these ideas. All of the changes weaken the ships as a net result. Why? Why make the Megathron even less tank and less dps? How does removing the ability to provide cap effectively to the Hyperion improve an already useless ship? And when the FU#K did Amarr become the new drone specialized race??
Seriously, everyone train Amarr if you haven't already. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:25:00 -
[517] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal. Are you ******* kidding me? You've just suggested buffing sentries? Sentry drones is the only weapon system that outperforms it's capital counterpart (fighters) and is on par with super-capital one (fighter-bombers). Just unban them on supers and you'll see those slowcats on steroids everywhere. Heavy drones? What's that? Never heard. The only thing sentry drones need is a revamped interface.
If you suggestion goes live, I'd stop using them. I dont play broken toys, no matter if those are broken to be useless or to be OP. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1595
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:26:00 -
[518] - Quote
so domi now doesnt do DPS and the mega can't be effectively buffer tanked and do DPS...nice... |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1114
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:34:00 -
[519] - Quote
I trust that all you good folk who have taken the trouble to point out that the proposed changes to the Gallente Battleship line-up, will, given CCP's track record with regard to player feedback, be completely ignored. This is not a signature. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2467
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:37:00 -
[520] - Quote
I asked this with the combat BC tiericide/rebalancing, and wonder it again- why don't you guys think what kind of roles the ships have now, if these roles are what you intended, or is the lineup missing ship for a specific role.
There was no plan, no goals, just arbitrary tweaking of stats in isolation of the meta.
Now we are in a situation where Gallente still has no fleet BC, neither of the combat BC works well in small gang, and solo only in 1vs1s with links and drugs.
With battleships, we have currently:
Hyperion- station spinning or trade hub duels with links, drugs and hauler alts Mega- solid armor brawler for small gangs Domi- versatile brawler, sentry sniper or PVE machine
After these changes, which lack a design goal and a comprehensive line-up plan:
Hyperion- station spinning Mega- station spinning Domi- too ugly for station spinning
Please make a plan first, think about their roles and what kind of tasks you would like the ships to perform.
I would probably forget Gallente ever being viable in fleets, and just focus on making it the best small gang and solo race.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
|
Imawuss
Origin. Black Legion.
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:40:00 -
[521] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Here's my in depth analysis of the problem regarding Gallente Battleships.
I will focus on one of the most important roles, if not the primary role, of Battleships - Fleet Line DPS. I say this because Battleships are far too vulnerable to smaller ships to be viable solo, and are of limited use in small gang engagements, where they are outshined by Battlecruisers in most aspects. Their roles basically boil down to fleet warfare and PvE.
... ... Because of this fact, drone DPS will not be included in the following analysis.
Another such property is the ranges at which fleet combat take place. Short range combat simply is not a viable option, for two reasons - fleets are not singular points, so when each ships optimal is in the 10-15km range, any primary called is likely outside a good chunk of the fleet's optimal (or even range altogether), severely limiting a fleet's ability to coordinate and apply it's full power. The second reason that short range fleets are not really a viable option is bubbles - when bubbling your enemy means bubbling yourself as well, the tactical advantage they represent is severely diminished.
Because of this, fleet combat tends to take place at medium to long ranges. Long rage combat is dominated by the "Tier 3" Battlecruisers, as their layouts, bonuses and speed allow them to kite while applying high damage far more effectively than any Battleship could ever hope to. This brings us to the aspect of PvP where Battleships truly shine - medium range line DPS. In this role, a ship must be able to dish out severe punishment while having enough staying power for friendly logistics to keep it up. The latter involves having very high, balanced resist profiles. Battleships fill this role better than any other subcap class in EVE, with the possible exception of Tech 3 Cruisers in very specific cases.
Now, let's look at the stats on three common ships used to fill this role: the Alpha Maelstrom, Fleet Rokh and Hellcat Abaddon.
Alpha Maelstrom: DPS: 600 @ 40km, 400 @ 70km EHP: 123k Resists: 71 / 77 / 83 / 70 Bonus Perk: Extreme Alpha
This ship is an all around solid choice, even with a completely wasted ship bonus. I won't go into too much depth, but resist bonuses are completely superior to active bonuses because they benefit both active and buffer tanks. Let's lose them if we can.
Fleet Rokh: DPS: 540 @ 60km, 300 @ 140km EHP: 133k Resists: 78 / 83 / 73 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extreme Range Flexibility
This ship not only has a fantastic tank, but it can actually compete with Tier 3 Battlecruisers that attempt to harass it. It fills its role incredibly well, and there is a reason the HBC relies on it primarily today.
Hellcat Abaddon: DPS: 650 @ 60km EHP: 125k Resists: 68 / 79 / 79 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extremely High Tracking
This is not as common today, but served its role as a line DPS Battleship not long ago. Its tank is roughly average for the role, resist profile decent, and its range is severely capped, but its tracking is so high it can dismantle support ships in the hostile fleet without relying on friendly support to do so. Not to be underestimated.
Gallente has not had a fleet-viable Battleship for many years now. Because the Hyperion's slot layout and bonuses are so terrible, trying to be in between two roles and as a result filling neither even remotely well, it simply is not an option. The Dominix is too drone-focused to be fleet viable except in very specific roles. That leaves only the Megathron, which simply cannot even hope to match the stats represented by the other three races' line DPS Battleships. This is the best it can do, using railguns for very obvious reasons:
Megathron: DPS: 495 @ 40km, 370 @ 70km EHP: 105k Resists: 71 / 63 / 63 / 49 Bonus Perk: None
This ship is using a CPU rig, yet still cannot fit hardeners, meaning it is incapable of overheating its tank in case of being called primary or being bombed. This is already a liability brought on by its low CPU. Its tank may have some meat to it, but it remains very low by Battleship standards, and its resist profile is absolutely abysmal. This makes it extremely difficult to keep up under hostile fire, and gives it a resist hole very easy for hostiles to exploit. And the final nail in the coffin is its completely lackluster DPS - while it can do somewhat respectable DPS at 40km (it is still low), it completely falls off the radar any farther out.
Tiericide was an opportunity to fix this problem. By removing the whole tier system, a formerly tier 2 Battleship like the Megathron could be elevated to the fleet effectiveness every other race has. All it would take is another lowslot, potentially an 8th turret slot (though this is less important). If I had been the one doing the first draft, it would have lost the utility high, gained a low and CPU, and had its base armor HP buffed somewhat.
Instead, we got a Megathron trying really hard to be a Hyperion, and as a result failing horrendously for the exact same reasons today's Hyperion does - the slot layout does not allow it to excel in any role. It is either a fast shield tanked bullseye or a fast armor tanked bullseye. This is frankly a terrible direction to take this ship.
So, CCP, all I ask of you is this: let Gallente have a line DPS Battleship. Please.
This. 1000x This. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2341
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:44:00 -
[522] - Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about these changes.
In terms of the Hyperion, I'm fine with it.
In terms of the Mega, I prefer my 7th low slot over a 5th med any day. Infact, Just drop the Turret Damage bonus, give us the Rate of Fire bonus and leave the ship as is. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
StryP1
hirr RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:45:00 -
[523] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light? The primary reason people fly gallente? That just happens to be the race they started as before they knew better. they like blasters and they like the way the ships look and they just sort of make due with the fact they are awful. So yeah, you will find Gallente BS, and yeah they are definitely used, but they are pretty widely considered useless for basing a doctrine around in organized pvp.
A 5 day sample is meaningless, use a much larger sample to defend your stance. The Domi changes seem interesting, give a MWD speed buff to drones. |
Imawuss
Origin. Black Legion.
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:51:00 -
[524] - Quote
I also want to add that the new domi will be very strong. For everyones whining the new range and tracking for sentries will be awesome. As some have said 750 dps GARDES @ 78km yes yes please. A solid pve platform or bait ship or sentry sniper or mini slowcat, nuet boat etc. yah 25% less blaster DPS but who cares when we actually have some dammed ranged/tracking drones. Oh no i cant use my extremely niches 1400 dps 25km or less brawling domi, now
But please tell me how is the Hyperion useful (ask why is the maelstrom a mainline ship but not the Hyperion neither use there rep bonus) or Megathron? What situations do you see these being used over other BS's? (hint no one here knows) and why should Gallente not have a main line dps BS as above statement?
Honestly guys domi is good (they will come around), but the other two you made worse. |
DiesMorten
30 centimeters of stainless steel
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:51:00 -
[525] - Quote
Obviously, hyper needs 5 mids (point, web, prop, dual cap boosters), otherwise it have useless rep bonus. Mega need 7 lows... 6 lows is not enough for passive armor BS. But now mega can be fitted with active armor Domi... strange fixes, but not so useless as mega\hyper changes. Need drone control range bonus. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:51:00 -
[526] - Quote
Traxle wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Moving Sentries
I completely agree! It would be nice if they were permanently orbiting our ship, unable to leave that flight pattern but still hit stuff. I'm not sure what the tracking ramifications of that would be though. or perhaps only allow them to move when they are recalled to the ship. Either way, big Plus for me on that Oh yeah, duct tape them to your ship! Under your shilds. And armor! We live in a dangerous world you know, we dont want our drones to explode, right? Oh wait... They are turrets now! Way to go CCP, make all weapon systems the same. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2467
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 06:57:00 -
[527] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:I also want to add that the new domi will be very strong. For everyones whining the new range and tracking for sentries will be awesome. As some have said 750 dps GARDES @ 78km yes yes please. A solid pve platform or bait ship or sentry sniper or mini slowcat, nuet boat etc. yah 25% less blaster DPS but who cares when we actually have some dammed ranged/tracking drones. Oh no i cant use my extremely niches 1400 dps 25km or less brawling domi, now
But please tell me how is the Hyperion useful (ask why is the maelstrom a mainline ship but not the Hyperion neither use there rep bonus) or Megathron? What situations do you see these being used over other BS's? (hint no one here knows) and why should Gallente not have a main line dps BS as above statement?
Honestly guys domi is good (they will come around), but the other two you made worse.
At 78km your dps is completely irrelevant, just saying.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Imawuss
Origin. Black Legion.
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:03:00 -
[528] - Quote
Roime wrote:Imawuss wrote:I also want to add that the new domi will be very strong. For everyones whining the new range and tracking for sentries will be awesome. As some have said 750 dps GARDES @ 78km yes yes please. A solid pve platform or bait ship or sentry sniper or mini slowcat, nuet boat etc. yah 25% less blaster DPS but who cares when we actually have some dammed ranged/tracking drones. Oh no i cant use my extremely niches 1400 dps 25km or less brawling domi, now
But please tell me how is the Hyperion useful (ask why is the maelstrom a mainline ship but not the Hyperion neither use there rep bonus) or Megathron? What situations do you see these being used over other BS's? (hint no one here knows) and why should Gallente not have a main line dps BS as above statement?
Honestly guys domi is good (they will come around), but the other two you made worse. At 78km your dps is completely irrelevant, just saying.
Yah we all know range is irrelevant in this game.... increased optimal oh yah that is so useless. range in pve? Again useless. Or not using range mods for drones and getting 30-40km gardes with higher optimal again useless...
Please share why range is irrelevant? Thats something new to me. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:03:00 -
[529] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Now, let's look at the stats on three common ships used to fill this role: the Alpha Maelstrom, Fleet Rokh and Hellcat Abaddon.
Alpha Maelstrom: DPS: 600 @ 40km, 400 @ 70km EHP: 123k Resists: 71 / 77 / 83 / 70 Bonus Perk: Extreme Alpha
This ship is an all around solid choice, even with a completely wasted ship bonus. I won't go into too much depth, but resist bonuses are completely superior to active bonuses because they benefit both active and buffer tanks. Let's lose them if we can.
Fleet Rokh: DPS: 540 @ 60km, 300 @ 140km EHP: 133k Resists: 78 / 83 / 73 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extreme Range Flexibility
This ship not only has a fantastic tank, but it can actually compete with Tier 3 Battlecruisers that attempt to harass it. It fills its role incredibly well, and there is a reason the HBC relies on it primarily today.
Hellcat Abaddon: DPS: 650 @ 60km EHP: 125k Resists: 68 / 79 / 79 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extremely High Tracking
This is not as common today, but served its role as a line DPS Battleship not long ago. Its tank is roughly average for the role, resist profile decent, and its range is severely capped, but its tracking is so high it can dismantle support ships in the hostile fleet without relying on friendly support to do so. Not to be underestimated.
Gallente has not had a fleet-viable Battleship for many years now. Because the Hyperion's slot layout and bonuses are so terrible, trying to be in between two roles and as a result filling neither even remotely well, it simply is not an option. The Dominix is too drone-focused to be fleet viable except in very specific roles. That leaves only the Megathron, which simply cannot even hope to match the stats represented by the other three races' line DPS Battleships. This is the best it can do, using railguns for very obvious reasons:
Megathron: DPS: 495 @ 40km, 370 @ 70km EHP: 105k Resists: 71 / 63 / 63 / 49 Bonus Perk: None
This ship is using a CPU rig, yet still cannot fit hardeners, meaning it is incapable of overheating its tank in case of being called primary or being bombed. This is already a liability brought on by its low CPU. Its tank may have some meat to it, but it remains very low by Battleship standards, and its resist profile is absolutely abysmal. This makes it extremely difficult to keep up under hostile fire, and gives it a resist hole very easy for hostiles to exploit. And the final nail in the coffin is its completely lackluster DPS - while it can do somewhat respectable DPS at 40km (it is still low), it completely falls off the radar any farther out.
Tiericide was an opportunity to fix this problem. By removing the whole tier system, a formerly tier 2 Battleship like the Megathron could be elevated to the fleet effectiveness every other race has. All it would take is another lowslot, potentially an 8th turret slot (though this is less important). If I had been the one doing the first draft, it would have lost the utility high, gained a low and CPU, and had its base armor HP buffed somewhat.
Instead, we got a Megathron trying really hard to be a Hyperion, and as a result failing horrendously for the exact same reasons today's Hyperion does - the slot layout does not allow it to excel in any role. It is either a fast shield tanked bullseye or a fast armor tanked bullseye. This is frankly a terrible direction to take this ship.
So, CCP, all I ask of you is this: let Gallente have a line DPS Battleship. Please.
Best post of the thread. I had no idea that the mega was in such a poor position. 40% less hp 30% less dmg than everything else.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2467
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:08:00 -
[530] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:Roime wrote:Imawuss wrote:I also want to add that the new domi will be very strong. For everyones whining the new range and tracking for sentries will be awesome. As some have said 750 dps GARDES @ 78km yes yes please. A solid pve platform or bait ship or sentry sniper or mini slowcat, nuet boat etc. yah 25% less blaster DPS but who cares when we actually have some dammed ranged/tracking drones. Oh no i cant use my extremely niches 1400 dps 25km or less brawling domi, now
But please tell me how is the Hyperion useful (ask why is the maelstrom a mainline ship but not the Hyperion neither use there rep bonus) or Megathron? What situations do you see these being used over other BS's? (hint no one here knows) and why should Gallente not have a main line dps BS as above statement?
Honestly guys domi is good (they will come around), but the other two you made worse. At 78km your dps is completely irrelevant, just saying. Yah we all know range is irrelevant in this game.... increased optimal oh yah that is so useless. range in pve? Again useless. Or not using range mods for drones and getting 30-40km gardes with higher optimal again useless... Please share why range is irrelevant? Thats something new to me.
I said your dps at 78km is irrelevant.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
|
Budrick3
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:13:00 -
[531] - Quote
DiesMorten wrote:Obviously, hyper needs 5 mids (point, web, prop, dual cap boosters), otherwise it have useless rep bonus. Mega need 7 lows... 6 lows is not enough for passive armor BS. But now mega can be fitted with active armor Domi... strange fixes, but not so useless as mega\hyper changes. Need drone control range bonus.
You would think this would be common sense considering it is a blaster boat meant to work in close range, but I bet 1 plex ccp will do something to screw it up. I was excited to see what kind of changes ccp was gonna do, but I am very underwhealmed with their ideas..... |
Irya Boone
TIPIAKS
222
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:16:00 -
[532] - Quote
So let's me get it straight CCP once again you prove you really got a grief against gallente AGAIN
The Scorpion, while being an oddity in the battleship line up, seems fairly happy ... no kidding.. Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses: 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength 25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range 25% bonus to ECM Burst range
Typhoon: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire +5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity (replaces large projectile rate of fire)
Armageddon: Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% to Drone damage and Hit Points (replaced large energy turret rate of fire) +10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)
Really ?? a neut armageddon? ...ok yeah doomsday is forbidden in empire I get it.
ANDDDDDDDDD the gallente *drums* drums*
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
So no Sensor dampener Bonus no tracking disrupt bonus ? caldari get ecm bonus , amarr get neut bonus but gallente .. no electronic bonus ?? really getting to **** me off
RENAME null sec systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome. Need Black Ops be able to FIT cover ops cloaking device !!! |
Odium47
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:19:00 -
[533] - Quote
Megathron is fine CCP! Leave it as it is! Don't make it a shield boat until you fix the tracking error! It could have 25% per level to tracking bonus and still wouldn't hit more often than a Tempest! |
Diascor
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:33:00 -
[534] - Quote
Megathron and Hyperion changes is bullshit!
-1 medslot for Hyperion as a ship with dualcapbusters - FINE idea!
6 low for Mega - lollollol!
Keep hands out from Mega, it is FINE! |
light heaven
JUST SET TIMES
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:33:00 -
[535] - Quote
Hyperion- how could it to be an active tank boat with only 4 med. It need duel capacitor booster Mega- 5 med, 6 low. maybe to be an active armor tank or shield tank. but I still like it to be 4 med and 7 low. Gallente is armor tank ship! Domi- a ship for sentry, but could you improve drone system first? |
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death
77
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:51:00 -
[536] - Quote
Right on, the changes is good.
And i also expect to more fundamental changes in base game mechanics (the active tank problems mostly hided in obsolete "transparent point with stats" object mechanics), now is 3d magic game with leveling. I hope it happens soon after WoD release. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:54:00 -
[537] - Quote
Uhm what about:
For BOTH mega and hyp
Remove the damage bonus.
Add:
%12.5 damage per level when overheating hybrid weapons
and give a role bonus as reduced heat emission.
This way these gallantean boats will have a role on battlefield as insane burst dps boats |
Giribaldi
Unmitigated Disaster Mutual and Absolute Destruction
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:57:00 -
[538] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!
Megathron:
Let me say it right out - 8 high, 5 mid, 6 low. With the Megathron moving into an attack role explicitly, we felt that it could really focus on its strengths as a flexible, fast, hybrid damage machine. The new slot layout opens options like dual propulsion with microwarp drive as well as microjump drive. It opens options to tank with shield or armor. It offers more ewar resilience or tackle. The sum of all of these examples is a ship that feels more like a tempest, less like a Hyperion. For us, this matches the intended personality of an attack ship, and we hope you agree.
We've also moved some of its damage from drones to the guns by switching the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus (rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need.
As one of Eve's most iconic ships, we expect you to have strong opinions here. Please share them. We're very excited about this version of the ship and hope you are too!
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Your now making everyone fit sheld tanked mega's, gj 100mn mwd x-large ancillary invul scram web dmg cont 4 magnetic field stabs... adding what changes u are with the 25% rate of fire instead of 25% dmg (with lvl 5 skill's) is all the change itn eeds... leave with 8/4/6 |
Shoo Ting
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:57:00 -
[539] - Quote
Vizvig wrote:Right on, the changes is good.
And i also expect to more fundamental changes in base game mechanics, now is 3d magic game with leveling. I hope it happens soon after WoD release.
Not sure if serious.
The Hyperion is even worse now that it can't pack cap boosters to run guns, utility, and tank.
The Megathron has tank/dps capabilities. Shield Megathron? WTF is that you might as well use a Talos for that purpose. The Megathron is a Muthafucking Armor ship.
Dominix, bleh losing gun bonus kills its versatility.
Fail CCP Fail.
I am not impressed.
Gallente Battleships will be doomed to be overshadowed by other faction BS. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
424
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:04:00 -
[540] - Quote
Please disregard feedback from any Gallente bittervets who claim that Gallente ships suck or are not used GÇô they clearly haven't played the game much in recent years and are stuck in the past where this was actually true. Nowadays I see lots and lots of greenish ships in game and on every killboard, in kills as well as losses. . |
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3335
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:08:00 -
[541] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!
Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.
The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".
The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche. I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why. First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade. And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important. As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos? Can you do the scenario again with the ECM. I always wondered what it would be like...
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
134
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:09:00 -
[542] - Quote
Hyperion: Find a role for it or leave it as it is until you do.
Megathron: What the hell?!? The quintessential Gallente Battleship and it looks like all this proposed change is designed to do is to make shield/gank fits more viable... Oh and making it cap out faster (like it needs the help). I (and I'm sure many others) recall the previous assessment being that the 'thron was pretty much where it needed to be; and I would more or less agree (perhaps a little more speed would be nice) armour's current "restrictions" not withstanding.
[will add more when I'm not making myself late for work] |
Heinrich Hoss
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:20:00 -
[543] - Quote
To all the ignorant people who think the dominix is not commonly used; it is the best T1 ship in the game for Sansha ratting. Argueably the second best subcap, bested only by the mach. I know a lot of people who use it almost daily, and I would myself if I could fly one and had drone skills. |
Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:32:00 -
[544] - Quote
Give the Hyperion the rate of fire bonus instead (more DPS to take advantage of it's many guns), give the reps a bonus to capacitor use. Inprive the cap recharge rate.
The problem with the Megathron is capacitor use as well, you should keep it at 4 mids, 7 lows, but give it lots of extra capacitor while keeping the damage rather than rate of fire bonus. Let the Megathron keeps it's flight of heavies, in every other class of ship there is at least one Gallente ship that can use a full flight of unbonused drones. Give it 125/150 so that it can carry a full set of heavies and lights.
The Dominix could use a increase in it's base targeting range given that it will serve a more long ranged role. You could also give it a more CPU and powergrid to compensate for the loss of the hybrid damage bonus. With unbonused guns at least let it fit a rack of 425 railguns. Add +5 km drone control range per level to one of the hull bonuses. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7411
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:36:00 -
[545] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Can you do the scenario again with the ECM. I always wondered what it would be like...
I love how people think ECM is the most broken ewar mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Au' Tena
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:38:00 -
[546] - Quote
@ccp rise
Quote: Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
i dont understand how youre change would improve active tanking. i am flying a hype myself in lvl4's with 2 reppers on it and an AB. given thet the rest of my midslots are filled with cap rechargers and the rigs are t1 of the same bonusses, i can dual rep permantly or use a rep and a AB permantly for some range.
this is a basic t2 setup with no officer or other exotic mods on it
loosing the mid will mean loosing a cap recharger and therefore upsetting my balance, the extra low wont help there. perhaps better native cap recharge might help this ship a lott more? otherwise , i wll have to rethink my fit and go for better resists and spend the freed low slot on that. not what you had intended, was it? |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:44:00 -
[547] - Quote
Au' Tena wrote:loosing the mid will mean loosing a cap recharger and therefore upsetting my balance, the extra low wont help there.
There is a wonderful module named capacitor power relay. You can just put a cpr on your new low slot and continue your PvE fun uninterrupted. |
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:45:00 -
[548] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Space potato becomes a fleet ship
How is it a good idea for a fleet ship to leave it's DPS source behind every time it has to gtfo? |
Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:46:00 -
[549] - Quote
Does anyone use BS in solo\small pvp roams? In solo its usually gate camps. Now with MJD. And smal roams? No ofc. Coz of speed. Who want use BS with so low speed in situation where u need mobility? You need like 10 min to travel 5-6 systems (or even more if armor tank). So...main role for most of BS is fleet fights. CTA and etc. Tell me plz, where i could use ALL gallent ships? In what format? Armor BS? Amarr better. More tank more range (~50 with close range weapon). So, if nobody told me, that gallents BS have no use in alliance CTA format, and i learnd it... Well im pretty useless for my ally because gallent have no BS for form their own format... Blasters have low range...Very low.... And only in 1\5 situation you will warp in 10-20 to enemy fleet, in other way you will be always out of range and taking damage from enemy. And +7 m\s not helps to get in close fast. Give optimal or falloff bonus to gallents BS (mega or hyper). Some of gallent ships have optimal bonus (t2, t3 versions) and some have falloff bonus (frigs, destr) "New" hyper with 4 med slots pretty weak in dual-trip reps because you need to choose between prop module and web (2 cap booster is default for hyper in current game mechanic), so why not to give him optimal or falloff bonus?
Anyway rokh still better for all hybrid weapons. Becuase of range. He could deal damage at range that mega can only dream (dont forget about EHP). Why i should learn gallents BS? Dont know, what my SP back :D |
baltec1
Bat Country
5878
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:54:00 -
[550] - Quote
Captain Semper wrote:Does anyone use BS in solo\small pvp roams?
I do. |
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3036
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:59:00 -
[551] - Quote
Au' Tena wrote:@ccp rise Quote: Hyperion:
The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.
It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.
i dont understand how youre change would improve active tanking. i am flying a hype myself in lvl4's with 2 reppers on it and an AB. given thet the rest of my midslots are filled with cap rechargers and the rigs are t1 of the same bonusses, i can dual rep permantly or use a rep and a AB permantly for some range. this is a basic t2 setup with no officer or other exotic mods on it loosing the mid will mean loosing a cap recharger and therefore upsetting my balance, the extra low wont help there. perhaps better native cap recharge might help this ship a lott more? otherwise , i wll have to rethink my fit and go for better resists and spend the freed low slot on that. not what you had intended, was it?
The best capacitor mods are lowslot mods. Just FYI. No one uses them because lowslots are extremely important and generally there is something better to fit, but you'll GAIN cap stability moving a mid to a low.
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3036
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:01:00 -
[552] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Captain Semper wrote:Does anyone use BS in solo\small pvp roams? I do.
And you could do the same with a dreadnaught.
Doesn't mean it is an optimal choice. Because it isn't.
BSes can be used in nearly any role, but only truly excel in fleet warfare and PvE. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
baltec1
Bat Country
5878
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:08:00 -
[553] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:baltec1 wrote:Captain Semper wrote:Does anyone use BS in solo\small pvp roams? I do. And you could do the same with a dreadnaught. Doesn't mean it is an optimal choice. Because it isn't. BSes can be used in nearly any role, but only truly excel in fleet warfare and PvE.
Wrong. You just need to know how to use them.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3036
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:12:00 -
[554] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:baltec1 wrote:Captain Semper wrote:Does anyone use BS in solo\small pvp roams? I do. And you could do the same with a dreadnaught. Doesn't mean it is an optimal choice. Because it isn't. BSes can be used in nearly any role, but only truly excel in fleet warfare and PvE. Wrong. You just need to know how to use them.
You could do even more in a Talos in a small gang. Comparable DPS, significantly higher speed, and far more flexibility. Just because it is possible to use a Megathron in that role does not mean it is the ideal ship, let alone ideal blaster platform.
I know you love the ship and it has been your gimmick for ages. A lot of us love the ship. But its specialization is not shield tanked small gang roaming. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Gargantoi
Solar Wind Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:15:00 -
[555] - Quote
ok so to start with ..dominix ...the new bonus to optimal range + tracking is ok...now when used with sentryes it will be better ..now ..the mega ...as usual .. u can`t do 1 thing right witouth 1 wrong ..thats how ccp works ..in conclusion ..you should of just change the mega bonuses to the hyperion cuz thats what u are doing now ..having 6 slots will make its buffer weaker ..also -1 heavy drone loses the whole joy of the ship ..giving it 5% bonus to rate of fire isnt what was needed either ..in the long run results more dps ..but the whole fun of mega was 7 blasters 5 ogre "high alpha+buff ..deal as much dps as u can ..by changing the curent stats to the ones u got in mind now ..u basicly ruining it ..and im not the only one complaining about the mega change ...so ccp thats a no no ..leave the mega alone if you wanna actually do something replace the hull HP with the armor HP so it gets more armor ..if not just leave it as it is ...now on to the hyperion ...giving it a 7th low slot ..actually is something needed u can tank it better it could actually work even decent in pvp now so yeah u`r doing it right here |
X4m
Reverse Side.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:16:00 -
[556] - Quote
-1 med slot for giperion? Seriosly? How I can fit this **** without 2 capboosters? |
Au' Tena
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:17:00 -
[557] - Quote
@Deerin and @ Akirei Scytale
thank you both, I will look into that. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
185
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:18:00 -
[558] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:baltec1 wrote:Captain Semper wrote:Does anyone use BS in solo\small pvp roams? I do. And you could do the same with a dreadnaught. Doesn't mean it is an optimal choice. Because it isn't. BSes can be used in nearly any role, but only truly excel in fleet warfare and PvE.
I've done mostly solo small gang BS for years. It isn't the optimal choice for how you play maybe but I don't care much for killing frigs in belts. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5879
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:19:00 -
[559] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
You could do even more in a Talos in a small gang. Comparable DPS, significantly higher speed, and far more flexibility. Just because it is possible to use a Megathron in that role does not mean it is the ideal ship, let alone ideal blaster platform.
I know you love the ship and it has been your gimmick for ages. A lot of us love the ship. But its specialization is not shield tanked small gang roaming.
Nor should it be.
I dont want to see it lose that low slot. If it must get that 5th mid (which I like the idea of) the the high should be taken away.
I would also want the cap recharge to be upgraded to neutralisethe extra cap that will be used with the ROF change. |
Awatar
Black Flag Operations The Kadeshi
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:21:00 -
[560] - Quote
With the new slot layout on the mega you move away from armortanking with gallente even further and only make it more viable as a speedy shield-caphungry brawler. ie large Talos.
|
|
Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
1932
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:33:00 -
[561] - Quote
Megathron.. oh how your days are gone.. We shall ligth a candle once a year, to remind us of your grace on the field of battle all those years ago.. When a single megathron would scare entire fleets off.. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
185
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:34:00 -
[562] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:[
Best post of the thread. I had no idea that the mega was in such a poor position. 40% less hp 30% less dmg than everything else.
That's because he's comparing tier 3 bs, TWO of which have resistance bonuses with a tier 2 bs that hasn't been balanced in a while.
Mega still won't compare EHP wise to a ship with a 5 slot armor tank with resistance bonus. 5 slot shield tank with resistance bonus. Mega will have 7 slots, 2 of which probably need 2 be damage mods.
Caldari got a tier 3 bs with a resistance bonus and an optimal bonus. Ideal. Amarr got resistance bonus and lasers. Minmatar got a ship with projectiles (which have artillery crazy alpha). Gallente got a ship with no range bonus and an active tank bonus. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3036
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:40:00 -
[563] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:IrJosy wrote:[
Best post of the thread. I had no idea that the mega was in such a poor position. 40% less hp 30% less dmg than everything else.
That's because he's comparing tier 3 bs, TWO of which have resistance bonuses with a tier 2 bs that hasn't been balanced in a while. Mega still won't compare EHP wise to a ship with a 5 slot armor tank with resistance bonus. 5 slot shield tank with resistance bonus. Mega will have 7 slots, 2 of which probably need 2 be damage mods. Caldari got a tier 3 bs with a resistance bonus and an optimal bonus. Ideal. Amarr got resistance bonus and lasers. Minmatar got a ship with projectiles (which have artillery crazy alpha). Gallente got a ship with no range bonus and an active tank bonus.
Remember that thing called tiericide? I'm comparing the mega to tier 3s because that's what the ship should be equivalent to post odyssey. Instead it is being effectively gutted.
Also, please look at the Maelstrom's stats before pointing to the resist bonuses. Even Minmatar, characterized by fast, light ships, has a line dps BS. Gallente does not. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:46:00 -
[564] - Quote
Dominix:
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU
Armageddon:
Fittings: 14500 PWG(-2000), 550 CPU(+65)
Domi dossen't really let you fit alot of stuff compared to Geddon however it can fit alot more drone mods becaus they require insane amounts of cpu.
I really gotta ask is a BS really surposed to have this low amount of PG? Prop mods and such all the use same amount of PG yet clearly the Domi has a ton less than any other BS a Mega has a staggering 16k and it's surposed to fit the same guns and only 1 more of them if you wished to use Railguns of course compared to the rest of the Amarr ships the Geddon has quite a bit less PG yet it's still more than 1.5 times the Domi. I get that the weapon systems are different in pg usage but i'm fairly sure that 9k is way to little of a BS class ship if you wish for a fit that that fully makes use of the turret slots the hull has.
Only hull that gets close to this amount of PG is the Scorp however even fully fit with torps since it only has 4 launcher slots it wont run of pg trying to fit the rest of it's capabilities.
On the other hand I do think the Armageddon has incredibly low CPU if it's a drone boat becaus the drone mods use insane amount of CPU just to fit them (all but the new drone dmg mods that is) this may however be a balance issue that you guys should allso add to the list the fact that the drone mods are extremely costly in fit compared to any other mods really.
I think there might be alot of old restrictions (or mistakes? Yeah sorry but there are a few ships in this game that are just omfg how am i surposed to fit evrything!) that are really showing alot more becaus we've finaly reached a large class of ship that may needt to be looked into the only other one that really screamed at me was the fittings on the Harbinger that was quite low to begin with and even was bumped a slight bit and that may have helped the ship a bit but I kinda stopped flying BCs becaus I felt it was a fairly nerfed class of ship now. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
185
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:49:00 -
[565] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:IrJosy wrote:[
Best post of the thread. I had no idea that the mega was in such a poor position. 40% less hp 30% less dmg than everything else.
That's because he's comparing tier 3 bs, TWO of which have resistance bonuses with a tier 2 bs that hasn't been balanced in a while. Mega still won't compare EHP wise to a ship with a 5 slot armor tank with resistance bonus. 5 slot shield tank with resistance bonus. Mega will have 7 slots, 2 of which probably need 2 be damage mods. Caldari got a tier 3 bs with a resistance bonus and an optimal bonus. Ideal. Amarr got resistance bonus and lasers. Minmatar got a ship with projectiles (which have artillery crazy alpha). Gallente got a ship with no range bonus and an active tank bonus. Remember that thing called tiericide? I'm comparing the mega to tier 3s because that's what the ship should be equivalent to post odyssey. Instead it is being effectively gutted. Also, please look at the Maelstrom's stats before pointing to the resist bonuses. Even Minmatar, characterized by fast, light ships, has a line dps BS. Gallente does not.
Yes but you're comparing it pre tiericide on things like EHP against ships with BONUSES to EHP. If you want raw HP of course you should use them.
Tiercide doesn't mean making all the ships the same.
Also I'm well aware the Maelstrom doesn't have a resist bonus, what's your point? It has a higher base raw HP because it's a tier 3 and it also is a shield tanker with 5 mids and a dcu for tank.
Yes Gallente doesn't have a line DPS ship but you're electing the Megathron, which isn't comparable in it's current pre tiericide form with all 3 other tier 3s.
If any ship should move towards being the lineship it probably should be the Hyp, at least until active armor tanking isn't pretty worthless. |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:56:00 -
[566] - Quote
This thread has the most replies out of all the BS change threads for a reason.
The changes lack direction and they don't solve any problems. Instead of embracing the Mega as a fleet BS (it was the closest thing Gallente had) you took away a lowslot making it completely unsuitable for a large armor tanking gang. Now it's just a brawler with with the same problem the Hyperion always had, ONE TOO FEW LOWs. What about the Hyperion? It's still a brawler but swapping a med for a low doesn't do it any good. It doesn't have a tracking bonus, it needs scram + web, but it also needs two injectors.
What are we left with? A Mega with bonuses that fit a fleet ship but with a gimped slot layout, and a Hyperion that's brawler with.. a bad slot layout.
Isn't this your opportunity to fix stuff, not just shuffle it around? The Gallente BS need a lot more love if anyone is going to come out of this feeling good about them. They sure as hell don't need awkward slot layouts and fitting issues like they've had since I dunno forever. Get rid of that crap.
Hyperion needs 7low / 5mid even if you drop a high (which you shouldn't, just give it 20 slots). Mega needs 7 lows as well.
Or you could actually change stuff, like give the Hyperion an optimal + RoF bonus so it'd be a decent fleet ship. |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
106
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:02:00 -
[567] - Quote
Again CCP Rise: Please concider making the Mega the go to blasterboat and just take a completely different direction like you did with the amarr.
The game doesnt need 2 blasterboats, same reason caldari wouldnt need 2 railboats, isnt this why the ferox/naga rebalancing is an issue aswell? |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2427
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:04:00 -
[568] - Quote
Honestly, CCP Rise, I'm kind of unimpressed with your attitude so far. Mane 614
|
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
527
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:04:00 -
[569] - Quote
I'm not entirely sure the participants in this thread know exactly what's going on here.
First, you need to recognize that the prices will be normalized somewhat. I'd like to see them all down to Tier1 prices, but that's probably just a pipe dream. That means Hyperions won't be costing 250+mil.
Second, the passive tanking capacity for these ships (as a whole) has been averaged out somewhat. Yes, they are weaker than they currently are (in some cases), but they take on new strengths in addition to the drawbacks.
THE DOMINIX I don't see what the complaints are about. I've been playing this game since 2006, and I can probably count on one hand, the number of times I've seen a Dominix (other than my own) sporting a full rack of large guns. One or two may be a bit more common, but for the vast majority of players, medium guns and/or neutralizers are used. The proposed changes will not change how most players use this ship. They will improve upon the ships drone-use abilities, at the cost of losing a potential (and awful) high dps setup. It's a good change.
THE HYPERION To me, this is the only *bad* change. That's not to say the ship is bad with these changes, but more that is loses its character. The Hyp is known for two things; its damage output and its huge active tank. The proposed changes remove one or the other, unless you wish to lose mobility. What being done here is they have given you the option to add the amount of ehp that you potentially could have gained from a second rep. This isn't terrible, but it goes against what the Hyperion has always been known for (active tanking).
The Hyperion is best when using multiple reps. That simply isn't feasible without 2 cap injectors, and dropping tackle (or propulsion) seriously limits the ships own ability to apply damage without assistance. The Rokh & Maelstrom do not have this issue, and the Abaddon is different style of ship entirely.
To me, the best solution for the Hyperion is also the simplest. - First, give back the 5th mid slot - Second, remove a high slot - Third, allow it to field 5 heavy drones - Reduce the base armor from 10000 down to ~7000 - *maybe* increase tank bonus to 10%
This would result in a 7/5/7 + 125/125 situation, which would be ideal. The 7th low allows players to either regain that extra bit of armor now lost, OR field damage/resists/rep to take advantage of the ships bonuses. The difference between flying a Hyperion over a new Mega is that the Mega becomes the guerilla fighter, and the Hyperion remains the front-line brawler.
THE MEGATHRON The level of complaining here is perplexing. Players have been begging for a way to make BS more viable ships for roaming around, yet when they're given what want they don't recognize it. The new Megathron (and Tempest by association) is a boss.
I understand that MANY of you (if not the majority) use the Mega as a fully plated low-sec gatecamping machine, and you *could* still do that. But why would you? The Hyperion would now be the same price and does the job better (even in the Megas current state). Like the Tempest, the new Megathron is one step closer to becoming a roamers DREAM battleship.
For both the Tempest/Mega that get fit with shields, you now have a mobile battleship capable of countering Tornados/Megathrons, while possessing far greater defenses.
For both the Mega/Tempest that get fit with armor, you now have a durable ship with good hp that can abuse AARs & MJDs. Get in a fight, kill/neut out ships with scramblers, then MJD away when things get hairy (MJD are unaffected by LR points & bubbles). There is quite literally nothing wrong with this thing, and I think the negative light it's getting is mostly caused by a narrow field of vision.
Domi & Mega are good changes. The Hype becomes *better*, but loses all of its character (so fix it). -áwww.promsrage.com |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
533
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:12:00 -
[570] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: To me, the best solution for the Hyperion is also the simplest. - First, give back the 5th mid slot - Second, remove a high slot - Third, allow it to field 5 heavy drones - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500 - *maybe* increase tank bonus to 10%
This would result in a 7/5/7 + 125/125 situation, which would be ideal. The 7th low allows players to either regain that extra bit of armor now lost, OR field damage/resists/rep to take advantage of the ships bonuses. The difference between flying a Hyperion over a new Mega is that the Mega becomes the guerilla fighter, and the Hyperion remains the front-line brawler.
I approve these great changes.
-1 Turret = +1800 PWG
More drones = Easier to apply damage
+1 medslot = +1 web
All in all, very good changes, please Kil2, this is what the Hyperion needs. |
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:15:00 -
[571] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500
As usual prom has gone full ****** again.
|
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:15:00 -
[572] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:I understand that MANY of you (if not the majority) use the Mega as a fully plated low-sec gatecamping machine, and you *could* still do that. But why would you? The Hyperion would now be the same price and does the job better (even in the Megas current state). Like the Tempest, the new Megathron is one step closer to becoming a roamers DREAM battleship.
So we're back to plating the ship with an active tank bonus?
I thought tiericide was about fixing stuff, not shuffling it around. Is it so god damned hard to give Gallente a decent gang BS? |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3037
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:19:00 -
[573] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:I'm not entirely sure the participants in this thread know exactly what's going on here. First, you need to recognize that the prices will be normalized somewhat. I'd like to see them all down to Tier1 prices, but that's probably just a pipe dream. That means Hyperions won't be costing 250+mil. Second, the passive tanking capacity for these ships (as a whole) has been averaged out somewhat. Yes, they are weaker than they currently are (in some cases), but they take on new strengths in addition to the drawbacks. THE DOMINIXI don't see what the complaints are about. I've been playing this game since 2006, and I can probably count on one hand, the number of times I've seen a Dominix (other than my own) sporting a full rack of large guns. One or two may be a bit more common, but for the vast majority of players, medium guns and/or neutralizers are used. The proposed changes will not change how most players use this ship. They will improve upon the ships drone-use abilities, at the cost of losing a potential (and awful) high dps setup. It's a good change. THE HYPERIONTo me, this is the only *bad* change. That's not to say the ship is bad with these changes, but more that is loses its character. The Hyp is known for two things; its damage output and its huge active tank. The proposed changes remove one or the other, unless you wish to lose mobility. What being done here is they have given you the option to add the amount of ehp that you potentially could have gained from a second rep. This isn't terrible, but it goes against what the Hyperion has always been known for (active tanking). The Hyperion is best when using multiple reps. That simply isn't feasible without 2 cap injectors, and dropping tackle (or propulsion) seriously limits the ships own ability to apply damage without assistance. The Rokh & Maelstrom do not have this issue, and the Abaddon is different style of ship entirely. To me, the best solution for the Hyperion is also the simplest. - First, give back the 5th mid slot - Second, remove a high slot - Third, allow it to field 5 heavy drones - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500 - *maybe* increase tank bonus to 10% This would result in a 7/5/7 + 125/125 situation, which would be ideal. The 7th low allows players to either regain that extra bit of armor now lost, OR field damage/resists/rep to take advantage of the ships bonuses. The difference between flying a Hyperion over a new Mega is that the Mega becomes the guerilla fighter, and the Hyperion remains the front-line brawler. THE MEGATHRONThe level of complaining here is perplexing. Players have been begging for a way to make BS more viable ships for roaming around, yet when they're given what want they don't recognize it. The new Megathron (and Tempest by association) is a boss. I understand that MANY of you (if not the majority) use the Mega as a fully plated low-sec gatecamping machine, and you *could* still do that. But why would you? The Hyperion would now be the same price and does the job better (even in the Megas current state). Like the Tempest, the new Megathron is one step closer to becoming a roamers DREAM battleship. For both the Tempest/Mega that get fit with shields, you now have a mobile battleship capable of countering Tornados/Megathrons, while possessing far greater defenses. For both the Mega/Tempest that get fit with armor, you now have a durable ship with good hp that can abuse AARs & MJDs. Get in a fight, kill/neut out ships with scramblers, then MJD away when things get hairy (MJD are unaffected by LR points & bubbles). There is quite literally nothing wrong with this thing, and I think the negative light it's getting is mostly caused by a narrow field of vision. Domi & Mega are good changes. The Hype becomes *better*, but loses all of its character (so fix it).
Here's the thing about MJDs and 5 mids.
You don't need 5 mids.
I have, sitting in one of my hangars, a Navy Mega running MWD + MJD, with 150k EHP, 600 DPS @ 40k, 450 DPS @ 85k, 300 DPS @ 140k,and a MWD speed of 920 m/s. It does not need 5 mids to accomplish this - it could do it with 3. Its stats come from its lowslots - all 8 of them. Giving the megathron 5 mids with the excuse of letting it dual prop is frankly absurd. It would be better served dual propping with a 7-4-8 layout and the CPU boost it so desperately needs.
Regarding shield tanking it - 5 mids doesn't allow for a sturdy shield tank. It turns the ship into a DPS platform and little else - one of those niche ships best served as surprise DPS in a gang once something big is tackled. This role is narrower than its current role.
What I want to see is Gallente having a viable option for fleets. It would have to be either the Megathron or Hyperion, as drones to not mesh well with fleets. As the Megathron is far, far closer to this niche currently and has a history of fleet usage, it is my preference for the role. The Hyperion is already the "you could turn this into a shield tanked glass cannon if you really wanted to" ship. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
186
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:20:00 -
[574] - Quote
Before these changes:
Good things about the Dominix; versatile, can go gank or tank without sacrificing to much of either. Can be a logistics platform, a neut platform or a damage platform. A 'spare' mid slot for eccm, second medium cap booster, second tackle, sensor booster.
Bad things about the Dominix; tracking isn't great (although aided by spare mid slot and lower tier guns) and PG is somewhat low so that it cannot fit railguns and a reasonable tank without fitting mods. It's pretty slow. Scan res kinda low.
Good things about Megathron; spare high for loltorp, neut or remote rep. Good tracking with neutrons. Good DPS from guns as well as 5 heavies/sentries. Possible to fit a dual lar tank but not really advised with how they underperform. Enough mids to not 'lose' something (like the Geddon)
Bad things about Megathron; CPU is a little low (about 30 more would be nice). It's a little slow for a face rapey blaster boat. It doesn't have a 'spare' mid. Can res kinda low.
Good things about Hyp; Can fit dual cap boosters and tackle.
Bad things about Hyp; 4 heavies instead of 5 and 0 spare drones. Fitting higher a rack of neutrons is a chore even with 1 cap booster, fitting rails becomes more challenging without a shield tank. Currently armor repairers overall are a bit rubbish. 6 lows means no space for utility low. it NEEDs 2 cap boosters if it is to make use of a LAR. Base targeting should be higher. |
Eternal Corrosion
I hope you were insured POWERED.
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:21:00 -
[575] - Quote
I think everything has been said, Gallente Battleships are the loosers here, they dont have a fleet option, they dont have now a solo option, and they dont have an utility / electronic BS option.
If you want to make the mega a nice option leave it with 7 lows, and give it CPU as you are doing, dont put it a 5% RoF which is a nerf to its cap. You can add some nice bonus there to make it shine at least in its niche instead of making it become a joke...
The hyperion: simply a joke, as its bonus,impossible to fly now, nothing else to say,
The dominix: only good for 0.0 POS defense and OPs, cheap carrier, without bonuses to repair range or amount, a spider tank joke.
For those who live in low and use the mega as brawler this changes are a pure joke, who is going to use a shield mega having a talos? and who wants a 5th mid slot instead of a 7th low in a brawling ship...
CCP you are doing it totally wrong and you will see it I will always love LowSec |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
530
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:25:00 -
[576] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500
As usual prom has gone full ****** again.
Look at active tanked Maelstroms/Rokhs. Their actual hitpoints are quite low. I don't really care how you reduce the base HP, but having 30-40k more on a ship with a greater tank isn't exactly in line with the whole tiericide thing. I'd much rather see a whole ton of hp come out of the shields, but I know CCP doesn't like to force a playstyle on the users (looking at you shield gankers) -áwww.promsrage.com |
Sinigr Shadowsong
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:32:00 -
[577] - Quote
Active armor tank. I can safely assume that most players dislike active armor tank on BS. Yet you still insist on keeping it. Moreover you even change the Hyperion slot layout to better suit the aspect most players despise. Maybe if active armor tanking was better such treatment would be accepted much easier. Either you should fix armor tanking first and only then build hulls around it or exclude it from hull design and adjust Hyperion and other such ships later. Gallente should have Good Old BS to form fleets of and Hyperion could be perfectly suited for this role instead of weird active armor tanked BS. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7411
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:34:00 -
[578] - Quote
wallenbergaren wrote:So we're back to plating the ship with an active tank bonus?
What, do you only plate ships with a resist bonus? mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
TH3 B34ST
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:34:00 -
[579] - Quote
The Mega and Hype don't fill any roles now. Active armor brawling in a BS is largely crap, so if you're going to insist on keeping it you better buff the hype and not just shuffle things around. Even with 7low/5mid/8high it wouldn't be amazing because that niche is still crap.
Ok so you decided that the Hype is a solo ship with its rep bouns, then obviously the mega needs to be a gang ship. Makes sense since it already kind of filled that role, even though it did it poorly. What do you do? You take away a low, now it's garbage as a gang ship. Guess what, even with 7low/5mid/7high it's not great as a gang ship because hybrids.
I say get rid of the active tank bonus on the hype, make it a decent fleet ship with a dmg bonus and range bonus, then make the mega into a proper brawler (give it one more slot than it has currently). |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:36:00 -
[580] - Quote
Andski wrote:wallenbergaren wrote:So we're back to plating the ship with an active tank bonus? What, do you only plate ships with a resist bonus?
No, but it means the rep bonus is completely useless. As the only Gal BS that can now fit a good passive tank its bonuses don't complement that at all. |
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2427
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:36:00 -
[581] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table. "+7.5% bonus to armour repair effectiveness and -n% reduction to armour repair capacitor use per level" might work.
Honestly, the reason active armour tanking is so much less popular than passive armour tanking is primarily because of concerns over scalability and sustainability. Active armour tanks do not scale very well when compared to a passive tank backed up by a logistics fleet. An active armour tank can only ever tank a flat amount of damage per second and its ability to be sustained by remote repair suffers due to its lack of buffer, and it can be shut off completely by capacitor warfare. You can't, of course, get rid of capacitor warfare without screwing over several other elements of the game (one of which, coincidentally, is making active tanking overpowered when used against smaller fleets). I've seen bonus-based solutions before such as "-7.5% to enemy energy vampire and energy neutraliser effectiveness" but that's an incredibly specialised bonus that isn't applicable in any situation where the enemy isn't using a nos or a neut.
The extra low-slot on the Hyperion is an improvement but isn't worth the cost of losing a mid-slot, especially if (but by no means solely because) we don't have some comensurate method of balancing our capacitor budget (as a side note, it will very likely make most perma-tanking missioning Hyperion fits stop working). Because most PvP Hyperion fits generally requires two cap injectors, it will have to give up either a web or a scram, or abandon a propulsion mod, which are sacrifices you can't afford to make in most of the situations in which PvP Hyperions are generally used.
As to the Megathron, losing a low is likely going to give it precisely the same problems as the Hyperion has now. The Megathron doesn't need that extra mid - it's nice, but it's survived for years without it and I don't doubt it will continue to do so. It cannot live without that extra low. I also seriously question the logic of giving a rate-of-fire bonus to a gun that requires capacitor to fire without giving it a comensurate increase in its innate cap regeneration or a bonus-based reduction in capacitor need to fire.
I see what you're trying to do with the Dominix but it needs more of that to maintain parity if it's no longer going to be a blaster platform. The drone MWD bonus the Algos has would be very useful, as would a drone armour/shield resistances bonus (as the Dominix will now have an even larger chunk of its DPS put in danger by smartbombs). What it most desperately needs, though, is a drone control radius bonus. Mane 614
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Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
52
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:37:00 -
[582] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Honestly, CCP Rise, I'm kind of unimpressed with your attitude so far.
unimpressed is a massive understatement.
These changes serve no purpose than to force battleships in same model of cruisers, for no reason at all but some sort of compulsive mind disorder. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
186
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:37:00 -
[583] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500
As usual prom has gone full ****** again. Look at active tanked Maelstroms/Rokhs. Their actual hitpoints are quite low. I don't really care how you reduce the base HP, but having 30-40k more on a ship with a greater tank isn't exactly in line with the whole tiericide thing. I'd much rather see a whole ton of hp come out of the shields, but I know CCP doesn't like to force a playstyle on the users (looking at you shield gankers) Edited post to be a bit more realistic; 6500 shield, 7000 armor, 7500 hull
Maelstrom has 8k base shield . 7.5k armor 7k hull. It doesn't need a hit point reduction to be honest.
|
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:39:00 -
[584] - Quote
Quote:rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus
On the only weapon system that consumes both ammo and capacitor, rate of fire bonus is inferior to damage bonus, since it increases consumption of both. Leave the damage bonus FFS! Also new Megathron is gonna run into the same problem the old Hyperion had - with 5 mids and 6 lows you could neither armour nor shield tank it properly. Hyperion's changes looks slightly better, but 100 m^3 drone bay is still somewhat pathetic for a Gallente battleship. Changes on Dominix I like however - no-gun Domi PvP fits were common before and will be even more now. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:42:00 -
[585] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500
As usual prom has gone full ****** again. Look at active tanked Maelstroms/Rokhs. Their actual hitpoints are quite low. I don't really care how you reduce the base HP, but having 30-40k more on a ship with a greater tank isn't exactly in line with the whole tiericide thing. I'd much rather see a whole ton of hp come out of the shields, but I know CCP doesn't like to force a playstyle on the users (looking at you shield gankers) Edited post to be a bit more realistic; 6500 shield, 7000 armor, 7500 hull
No reason what so ever to nerf the armor hit points on the hyperion. The 7-5-7 slot layout with 125m/3 bandiwth is spot on however a sever nerf to the base stats of the hyperion are simply unfounded.
As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******. Knowing you, I'm going to assume it's a combination of both, Id suggest going back to the fail heap forums and getting laughed at by the community there.
|
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
52
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:44:00 -
[586] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Quote:rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus On the only weapon system that consumes both ammo and capacitor, rate of fire bonus is inferior to damage bonus, since it increases consumption of both. Leave the damage bonus FFS! Also new Megathron is gonna run into the same problem the old Hyperion had - with 5 mids and 6 lows you could neither armour nor shield tank it properly. Hyperion's changes looks slightly better, but 100 m^3 drone bay is still somewhat pathetic for a Gallente battleship. Changes on Dominix I like however - no-gun Domi PvP fits were common before and will be even more now.
That is among the easiest things to solve. Just increase ship base capacitor by about 200 and its all green again. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
531
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:45:00 -
[587] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500
As usual prom has gone full ****** again. Look at active tanked Maelstroms/Rokhs. Their actual hitpoints are quite low. I don't really care how you reduce the base HP, but having 30-40k more on a ship with a greater tank isn't exactly in line with the whole tiericide thing. I'd much rather see a whole ton of hp come out of the shields, but I know CCP doesn't like to force a playstyle on the users (looking at you shield gankers) Edited post to be a bit more realistic; 6500 shield, 7000 armor, 7500 hull Maelstrom has 8k base shield . 7.5k armor 7k hull. It doesn't need a hit point reduction to be honest.
The Maelstrom also doesn't have the slots to field any resemblance of a decent buffer if you want a big tanks AND mobility AND tackle. And thanks to ASBs, the tank is also neut-proof*
The Hyperion has all of those things, and with 5 mids you can triple rep (LAR/LAR/LAAR) which results in a bigger active tank AND more hp & dps than a Mael/Rokh. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
186
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:47:00 -
[588] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:Quote:rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus On the only weapon system that consumes both ammo and capacitor, rate of fire bonus is inferior to damage bonus, since it increases consumption of both. Leave the damage bonus FFS! Also new Megathron is gonna run into the same problem the old Hyperion had - with 5 mids and 6 lows you could neither armour nor shield tank it properly. Hyperion's changes looks slightly better, but 100 m^3 drone bay is still somewhat pathetic for a Gallente battleship. Changes on Dominix I like however - no-gun Domi PvP fits were common before and will be even more now. That is among the easiest things to solve. Just increase ship base capacitor by about 200 and its all green again.
There's other things to consider with ROF bonuses than just cap use. You use more ammo, you may end up using more cap boosters, you also reload sooner and more often which might actually mean less applied DPS over the course of a fight.
|
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
531
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:50:00 -
[589] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Seishi Maru wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:Quote:rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus On the only weapon system that consumes both ammo and capacitor, rate of fire bonus is inferior to damage bonus, since it increases consumption of both. Leave the damage bonus FFS! Also new Megathron is gonna run into the same problem the old Hyperion had - with 5 mids and 6 lows you could neither armour nor shield tank it properly. Hyperion's changes looks slightly better, but 100 m^3 drone bay is still somewhat pathetic for a Gallente battleship. Changes on Dominix I like however - no-gun Domi PvP fits were common before and will be even more now. That is among the easiest things to solve. Just increase ship base capacitor by about 200 and its all green again. There's other things to consider with ROF bonuses than just cap use. You use more ammo, you may end up using more cap boosters, you also reload sooner and more often which might actually mean less applied DPS over the course of a fight.
Hybrids already reload in 5 seconds and take up far far less cargo than any other race. Outside of large+extended fleet situations (ie: pos/cap bashing), how often would you say you have to reload guns mid-fight because you ran out of ammo? -áwww.promsrage.com |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2427
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:52:00 -
[590] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Outside of large+extended fleet situations (ie: pos/cap bashing), how often would you say you have to reload guns mid-fight because you ran out of ammo? Outside of when something was on fire, how often would you say you have to use a fire extinguisher? Mane 614
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
186
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:54:00 -
[591] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The Maelstrom also doesn't have the slots to field any resemblance of a decent buffer if you want a big tanks AND mobility AND tackle. And thanks to ASBs, the tank is also neut-proof* It's basically fixed at that hp level, unless you want to start sacrificing things.
The Hyperion has all of those things, and with 5 mids you can triple rep (LAR/LAR/LAAR) which results in a bigger active tank AND more hp & dps than a Mael/Rokh.
You shouldn't balance the Hyps raw hit points around the Maelstrom's ASB.
Nah Maelstrom get's more DPS and only slightly less EHP with current stats and an active tank. Hyp might tank a bit more now with the LAAR/LAR/LAR fit but it's EHP is still within a nice range. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:54:00 -
[592] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: The Hyperion has all of those things, and with 5 mids you can triple rep (LAR/LAR/LAAR) which results in a bigger active tank AND more hp & dps than a Mael/Rokh.
Stop using eft as your end all be all of ship evaluation, tripple rep hyperion uses electron blasters, aka your damage application is actually far less than a maelstrom loaded with gyros and TE.
Dual xl asb Maelstrom also is more or less immune to cap, Hyperion is not. With the inevitable spam of OP Geddon Cheese in the near future, I don't see how a tripple rep Hyperion will be better than a maelstrom for almost anything.
In conclusion, go back to failheap prom, your badness is not wanted here. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:55:00 -
[593] - Quote
Rate-of-Fire bonus without a modification to capacitor base/recharge is a nerf, plain and simple. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
187
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:57:00 -
[594] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: Hybrids already reload in 5 seconds and take up far far less cargo than any other race. Outside of large+extended fleet situations (ie: pos/cap bashing), how often would you say you have to reload guns mid-fight because you ran out of ammo?
Your question doesn't make sense. The more often you reload the less time you are firing, the less time you are firing means the less DPS over the course of the fight you are doing.
ROF bonuses mean you reload more often within x amount of time.
It's not about having to load a different ammo type, where did you get that from? |
Kenrailae
Starwinders SCUM.
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:57:00 -
[595] - Quote
Prolly been said already, but.... 30 pages is Tl;dnr.
Mega is a great multi-role BS as it is. With current low sec mechanics, yes it's more used as a station game counter, or a quick ganker. But dropping it's armor amount and taking a low from it is gonna make it really rather fragile as far as a blaster based attack battleship would be.
I do love my Mega, don't get to fly it enough. I can't imagine, with current low sec mechanics and all, that I'll be able to fly it with any regularity as it will be. Can we drop the Random High and have our Low back?
An RoF bonus is pretty silly if we can't track.
EDIT: Tracking statement is based on losing a utility low which usually carries a magstab or TE to apply the mega's full DPS potential |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:00:00 -
[596] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: Hybrids already reload in 5 seconds and take up far far less cargo than any other race. Outside of large+extended fleet situations (ie: pos/cap bashing), how often would you say you have to reload guns mid-fight because you ran out of ammo?
Your question doesn't make sense. The more often you reload the less time you are firing, the less time you are firing means the less DPS over the course of the fight you are doing. ROF bonuses mean you reload more often within x amount of time. It's not about having to load a different ammo type, where did you get that from?
Let's be honest, when was the last time PL used hybrid boats in a fight that lasted longer than 5 minutes.
All kidding aside, you're right. The RoF change is a nerf to DPS over time. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
268
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:08:00 -
[597] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:What I want to see is Gallente having a viable option for fleets. It would have to be either the Megathron or Hyperion, as drones to not mesh well with fleets. As the Megathron is far, far closer to this niche currently and has a history of fleet usage, it is my preference for the role. The Hyperion is already the "you could turn this into a shield tanked glass cannon if you really wanted to" ship. The Hyperion, as proposed, have all it neet to be a fleet platform. Just forget the armor rep bonus if you are in fleet. This bonus is only a bonus for smaller scale things. 8 guns + 7 lows make it good for fleet, and that's what it lacked before, and what people complained about. The Megathron can't take this job, because it lack the 8th turret.
People always moaned about the armor rep bonus being useless, and now everyone cry about the 5 mid being mandatory for armor rep setup... Go figure....
As for this fifth mid, I'm pretty sure it's not necessary anyway for one or two rep setups. Cap stability is only useful when heavy neutralized, but I'm sure 5 minutes of cap should be enough for most other uses. And if you need this second cap booster that much, the new Megathron can take this role anyway.
People are so narrow minded, it's depressing.
Looking at the whole picture, these changes offer everything gallente can need : - long range high utility armor fleet : dominix - long range armor gun fleet : hyperion - guerilla : megathron - heavy brawling with some support : hyperion - solo whatever : any of them - high utility/support : dominix - gank : megathron
What they don't do is turning gallente ships into caldari/amarr ones. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:11:00 -
[598] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:What I want to see is Gallente having a viable option for fleets. It would have to be either the Megathron or Hyperion, as drones to not mesh well with fleets. Drones do mesh excellent with fleets. Your alliance has a program to help them field as many slowcats as possible. You better learn that really quick, or Daddy PL would punish you! |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
533
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:11:00 -
[599] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: Hybrids already reload in 5 seconds and take up far far less cargo than any other race. Outside of large+extended fleet situations (ie: pos/cap bashing), how often would you say you have to reload guns mid-fight because you ran out of ammo?
Your question doesn't make sense. The more often you reload the less time you are firing, the less time you are firing means the less DPS over the course of the fight you are doing. ROF bonuses mean you reload more often within x amount of time. It's not about having to load a different ammo type, where did you get that from? Let's be honest, when was the last time PL used hybrid boats in a fight that lasted longer than 5 minutes. All kidding aside, you're right. The RoF change is a nerf to DPS over time.
It would take ~7 minutes of constant fire to exhaust the ammo out of an Ion blaster with the change. Currently, it would take 9-10 minutes.
You're telling me that you are getting in so many long fights that in the span of 7-10 minutes you don't have a 5 second window to reload? Aside from shooting POSs & Capitals, I see this a very very minor problem. Especially since the Mega is now doing more damage, and has never really had severe cap problems (and it wouldn't now) -áwww.promsrage.com |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:12:00 -
[600] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:
EDIT: Tracking statement is based on losing a utility low which usually carries a magstab or TE to apply the mega's full DPS potential
Not saying I totally disagree with you however the counter point would be that the mega can now (by now I mean proposed changes) easily fit 2x Webs, which would allow for a significant improvement in tracking compared to a 7 low mega that has an extra TE.
Overall I'd much rather see an 8-4-7 mega which swaps the dmg bonus for a rof bonus in exchange for loosing 25m3 drone bandwidth.
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Serith Ellecon
Internet Spaceships Initiates Tribal Band
9
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:12:00 -
[601] - Quote
I agree with much of the sentiment expressed so far. Hyperion will remain as it is now - utterly terrible. Domi changes I kind of like. Mega - No. Just No. I'd rather lose a high from it to gain a mid than lose a valuable low. Losing a low slot is such a massive nerf to a gallente ship it's crazy. You lose out on either tank, or gank in the forms both of drone and gun DPS. My ratting mega will end up reprocessed if the changes happen as is. Blaster boats serve a tiny role in either pve or pvp, since their abysmal range means you will only ever be in range on a gate camp. Almost all the major ratting fits use rails. For a ship with cap sucking guns like hybrids, you need FAR more mids for a shield tank to be viable, because you need several of those mids for cap rechargers.
122 m/s and 16 sec align time is NOT FAST. It may be a little faster than many battleships. but it's still not on the same continent as fast, let alone the same street. The Mega has never felt like a hyperion, because the hyperion is TERRIBLE. Active tanked armour is rarely seen outside PvE for good reasons. Plus the Hype has never had the slots to make best use of either of the bonuses. The ancil armour repper is a start, but in reality, what the Hyperion really needs is a complete redefinition of its' role amd bonuses. Dump the rep bonus, give it an optimal range boost instead, and instantly you have a better blaster boat, or a viable rail ship. Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
268
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:19:00 -
[602] - Quote
Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.
I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others"). |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
19
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:23:00 -
[603] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.
I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").
It's not quite that simple... The complaints arise from the overall effect they will have on the niche rolls of each ship. Despite what the baddies have said, the Hyperion does not work as a dual rep ship w/o the usage of two cap boosters which is why the complaints about the loss of a mid are so prevelant. At the same time the loss of a low on the mega (even with the increase dps from a Rof bonus) combined with the loss of a heavy drone has a negative impact on the dps capability of a plated Megathron.
Oversimplifying the complaints into (fear of change) is honestly a slight against the people who have explained the reason behind their negative feedback. I'd suggest opening your eyes and reading into the responses next time. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
719
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:26:00 -
[604] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.
I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").
Generally Mid slots >>>> Other slots.
There are exceptions though. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:27:00 -
[605] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.
I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").
You have no clue what you are talking about. The Hyperion needs the extra mid to be able to tackle due to the lack of tracking. On top of that active armour is cap hungry. What you currently have is a ship that is pointless.
I will not even go into the Megathron as people with a lot more experience than you have pointed out how horrible the new slot layout is. CCP have not addressed any of the issues which why the Mega is not widely used.
The Dominix bonuses are just meh. The only way they could work is if it got a drone control range bonus on top of it. What is the point of a sniper drone boat that does okish damage? If you drop the hybrid damage bonus let the Domi make up for the loss of dps by adding extra turrets and not just cramming the high slots with drone link augmentors.
Right now the drone tracking bonus does not add any real dps to the ship as the mid slots have nothing to enchance damage any further (before you used omni's) but those are not really needed anymore, or not the 3 that I use at the moment. What do I replace them with? |
baltec1
Bat Country
5879
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:27:00 -
[606] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.
I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").
In the case of the mega, we can lose a high slot for that mid. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
298
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:29:00 -
[607] - Quote
Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input! |
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2427
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:29:00 -
[608] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. People use the term "fear of change" as if it's meant to be some terrible character flaw. No, it isn't - sometimes the fear of certain changes is perfectly justified, especially if they're bad changes, and people have spent the last 40-ish pages explaining precisely why these are bad changes.
Yeah, we're afraid of CCP making these changes. They'll give us even less reason to use Gallente battleships. Mane 614
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
533
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:29:00 -
[609] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******. Please start linking me fits people use, outside of gank setups, that effectively utilize the large gun bonus on the Dominix The new drone bonus is not only better for PVE+PVP, but you aren't losing the turret hardpoints. So you can have your cake and eat it too.
Askulf Joringer wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: The Hyperion has all of those things, and with 5 mids you can triple rep (LAR/LAR/LAAR) which results in a bigger active tank AND more hp & dps than a Mael/Rokh.
Stop using eft as your end all be all of ship evaluation, tripple rep hyperion uses electron blasters, aka your damage application is actually far less than a maelstrom loaded with gyros and TE. Dual xl asb Maelstrom also is more or less immune to cap, Hyperion is not. With the inevitable spam of OP Geddon Cheese in the near future, I don't see how a tripple rep Hyperion will be better than a maelstrom for almost anything. In conclusion, go back to failheap prom, your badness is not wanted here.
A couple things to get out of the way first; Maelstroms are much less mobile than any Gallente BS, which means tackle range isn't necessarily a limitation. Maelstroms are used in fleets because of their ALPHA, not because of their incredible tanking ability.
Yes, dual (or triple for overlap/duration) XLASB Maelstroms are immune to cap. Yes, the Hyperion (or any other non-minmatar bs) is afraid of cap warfare.
I'm totally aware of that, but it isn't the reason why I'd prefer a HP reduction with the 757 layout. This is supposed to be a tiericide, meaning the ships should be within certain performance boundaries.
If you keep the hitpoint level as it stands, then the ships is head and shoulders above every other BS.
Range issues aside, it would have (by far) the biggest unaided active tank (this isn't triple rep), the biggest passive tank, & the most dps (on paper). That completely negates the new Mega (which looks great btw) and further gives passive tanking Hyps the edge.
Maybe my proposed reductions are a bit off, but that's what testing is for. If you're going to give a ship a bonus to tanking (a la Maelstrom), then you'd better be making active tanking the more appealing method.
If you're not cool with that, keep talking smack behind your alt -áwww.promsrage.com |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:33:00 -
[610] - Quote
Completely redo the slot layout of the mega and the Hyperion
Hyperion should hit 8 lows 5 mid 6 high
Mega 7 lows 6 high 6 mids
Total overhaul of slot layout.
Dunno but that'd help the tank out allot |
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Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
54
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:34:00 -
[611] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
601
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:35:00 -
[612] - Quote
Megathron: 8 turrets, 8-4-7 layout, retain damage and tracking bonus. Use as generic gank platform or fleet rail BS, with lesser tank but superior close-range applied DPS, relative to the Rokh.
Hyperion: 7 turrets, 7-5-7 layout, 7.5% bonuses to damage and local rep amount. Five meds enables dual cap booster for viable active armour tank, assisted by greater turret cap efficiency, while also retaining full gank shield option.
Dominix. Tweak fittings.
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
298
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:35:00 -
[613] - Quote
Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly?
I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. |
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Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:37:00 -
[614] - Quote
Count me as another person that really appreciates the Dominix's ability to do obscene DPS with blasters and drones together on a webbed (or double webbed) target.
At the moment, the Dominix runs on the basis of "Great drone damage; halfway decent blaster damage; solid active armor tank; solid buffer armor tank: Choose two". After the overhaul it loses option 2. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:37:00 -
[615] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.
Hint.. the minmatar one has a lot of rage as well. Just that the rage is UNIFORM therefore there are les sposts because there are no one defending the changes... so no much discussion |
baltec1
Bat Country
5879
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:38:00 -
[616] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
Any chance of a sneek peek now? |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:38:00 -
[617] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input! You better bring back my versatile Dominix, or I'll hit your jaw right through the monitor. Seriously, sentry drones are too strong compared to other drone types. No need to emphasize their strength even futher. |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:38:00 -
[618] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
Keep up the good work, especially the parts where you include your vision of why you are making changes.
Your job will get depressing. But keep at it, ignore the haters, you are doing great so far.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
269
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:39:00 -
[619] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:It's not quite that simple... The complaints arise from the overall effect they will have on the niche rolls of each ship. Despite what the baddies have said, the Hyperion does not work as a dual rep ship w/o the usage of two cap boosters which is why the complaints about the loss of a mid are so prevelant. At the same time the loss of a low on the mega (even with the increase dps from a Rof bonus) combined with the loss of a heavy drone has a negative impact on the dps capability of a plated Megathron.
Oversimplifying the complaints into (fear of change) is honestly a slight against the people who have explained the reason behind their negative feedback. I'd suggest opening your eyes and reading into the responses next time. I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?
As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.
Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2429
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:41:00 -
[620] - Quote
To anyone suggesting that the Hyperion should lose hi-slots or turret hardpoints: no. It can't be done, currently, because art assets constain them from doing that. The Hyperion very, very clearly has eight turret hardpoints on the base model. Unless the ship was actively remodelled at the same time as the stats change, they can't get rid of guns or hardpoints. Mane 614
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Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:43:00 -
[621] - Quote
CCP I'm not sure how I must react to these possible change.
Gallente BS, on the contrary of other races, have bonuses who rely on feature that need to be revamped and reworked on like active tanking and drones.
If you specialize these ships with those feature without revamping them on the first time, you will end up with a problem later.
Every other racial BS can do better than gallente one, and even after the change, the perfect example is the Armaguedon. Forget about the neuting Domi, now the Guedon have bonus to neutralizer! Seriously, nobody care about trakcing and drone optimal since drones boat are rarely use in fleet, small gang and PVE (drone get aggro now).
Anyway, my feedback on this is that Gallente BS werent competing against other racial BS and will not compete in any fashion possible after these change are applied.
Every other race have a line battleship able to do fleet work, except Gallente. What Gallente need on their hull is a falloff bonus, so I guess you could remove the tracking bonus of the Mega and put a 10% bonus to falloff or something simillar.
Fix drones mechanics, fix active tanking or give a 3rd bonus on active tanked ship. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
601
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:44:00 -
[622] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:To anyone suggesting that the Hyperion should lose hi-slots or turret hardpoints: no. It can't be done, currently, because art assets constain them from doing that. The Hyperion very, very clearly has eight turret hardpoints on the base model. Unless the ship was actively remodelled at the same time as the stats change, they can't get rid of guns or hardpoints.
Once upon a time, I fitted seven guns to a Hyperion and undocked. It was fine, the server didn't crash and Eve didn't die, although I did feel that I was flying a badly-fit ship.
Removing a turret from the Hyperion is trivial. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
533
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:45:00 -
[623] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Count me as another person that really appreciates the Dominix's ability to do obscene DPS with blasters and drones together on a webbed (or double webbed) target.
At the moment, the Dominix runs on the basis of "Great drone damage; halfway decent blaster damage; solid active armor tank; solid buffer armor tank: Choose two". After the overhaul it loses option 2.
The actual damage lost from the lack of bonus isn't that enormous (something like 200dps or 15%). You're still looking at a 1300+dps capable ship. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Kenrailae
Starwinders SCUM.
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:49:00 -
[624] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.
I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others"). In the case of the mega, we can lose a high slot for that mid.
Trading that High would be a better trade IMO. I'm just wondering how this change will lean toward shield gank mega's supported by Scythe's as station gamers :/ |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2470
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:51:00 -
[625] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
THE DOMINIX I don't see what the complaints are about. I've been playing this game since 2006, and I can probably count on one hand, the number of times I've seen a Dominix (other than my own) sporting a full rack of large guns. One or two may be a bit more common, but for the vast majority of players, medium guns and/or neutralizers are used. The proposed changes will not change how most players use this ship. They will improve upon the ships drone-use abilities, at the cost of losing a potential (and awful) high dps setup. It's a good change.
Ok, the suggested change gives the Domi two Omnidirectional Tracking Link IIs for free, which is not a bad thing. It frees midslots for more utility or Omnis. MJD tactics could benefit from this, it seems to be fairly easy to project 581dps out to MJD range and fit all the required DLAs and sebos.
Question remains why would anyone fly a neut Domi in the summer, when the Geddon gets a bonus to neut range, can fit more heavy neuts with better tank and same drone dps?
However issues with drones are not optimal or tracking, they are UI, sig radius, EHP, chase/orbit mechanism, AI and sentry scoop range. These were the things that were supposed to be fixed.
Quote: THE HYPERION To me, this is the only *bad* change. That's not to say the ship is bad with these changes, but more that is loses its character. The Hyp is known for two things; its damage output and its huge active tank. The proposed changes remove one or the other, unless you wish to lose mobility. What being done here is they have given you the option to add the amount of ehp that you potentially could have gained from a second rep. This isn't terrible, but it goes against what the Hyperion has always been known for (active tanking).
The Hyperion is best when using multiple reps. That simply isn't feasible without 2 cap injectors, and dropping tackle (or propulsion) seriously limits the ships own ability to apply damage without assistance. The Rokh & Maelstrom do not have this issue, and the Abaddon is different style of ship entirely.
To me, the best solution for the Hyperion is also the simplest. - First, give back the 5th mid slot - Second, remove a high slot - Third, allow it to field 5 heavy drones - Reduce the base armor from 8000 (base) down to ~5500 - *maybe* increase tank bonus to 10%
This would result in a 7/5/7 + 125/125 situation, which would be ideal. The 7th low allows players to either regain that extra bit of armor now lost, OR field damage/resists/rep to take advantage of the ships bonuses. The difference between flying a Hyperion over a new Mega is that the Mega becomes the guerilla fighter, and the Hyperion remains the front-line brawler.
+1, good suggestions. (I don't agree that Hype is known for it's damage output, it does barely passable dps in active setups and with terrible application)
[/quote] THE MEGATHRON The level of complaining here is perplexing. Players have been begging for a way to make BS more viable ships for roaming around, yet when they're given what want they don't recognize it. The new Megathron (and Tempest by association) is a boss.
I understand that MANY of you (if not the majority) use the Mega as a fully plated low-sec gatecamping machine, and you *could* still do that. But why would you? The Hyperion would now be the same price and does the job better (even in the Megas current state). Like the Tempest, the new Megathron is one step closer to becoming a roamers DREAM battleship.
For both the Tempest/Mega that get fit with shields, you now have a mobile battleship capable of countering Tornados/Megathrons, while possessing far greater defenses.
For both the Mega/Tempest that get fit with armor, you now have a durable ship with good hp that can abuse AARs & MJDs. Get in a fight, kill/neut out ships with scramblers, then MJD away when things get hairy (MJD are unaffected by LR points & bubbles). There is quite literally nothing wrong with this thing, and I think the negative light it's getting is mostly caused by a narrow field of vision. [/quote]
These roaming battleships have a massive sig, no means of holding range and are still much slower, worse scan res and with increased cap consumption of the blasters, Mega needs the 5th mid for a cap booster, leaving the shield fit with ~73K EHP. For a ship that gets scrammed and close orbited to death by T1 cruisers with TDs, that's not a lot of tank.
Suggested Mega has **** all tank in either shield or armor fit, both base values are massively lower than what the Tempest sports. And it's still slow.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
823
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:53:00 -
[626] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input! You better bring back my versatile Dominix, or I'll hit your jaw right through the monitor. Seriously, sentry drones are too strong compared to other drone types. No need to emphasize their strength even futher. It is just as versatile now as it was before, the tracking will help with heavy drones now too. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:53:00 -
[627] - Quote
I just make a short assesment of what i think of the changes so far.
Megathron interesting changes which i dont mind but give her more cap. Hyperion i would give her probably 3% damage and tracking + 7,5% - 10% armor rep boni. Dominix pls give her the drone range, tracking and drone-mwd-speed boni. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:55:00 -
[628] - Quote
I really hope that CCP RISe and CCP fozzie are not planning on changing only the gallente proposals. There has been even more uproar and negation on minmatar thread and the amarr thread is more or less divided, with some observations of the violation of gallente roels with the geddon. The only ones more or less happy are the caldari. |
The Bazzalisk
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:58:00 -
[629] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need. I hate to break it to you but a 50% rate of fire bonus does not mean you are shooting twice as fast, you will be shooting 1.5x as fast.
So you saying that a rate of fire bonus is superior to a damage bonus is incorrect because rate of fire bonus will suck more cap. |
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 11:59:00 -
[630] - Quote
CCP Rise, I really like that you read the feedback. I was going to say, Zoidberg-style, that "You are bad and you should feel bad. Go back to being Kil2.", but I'll wait to see the new proposals.
As a whole, I do not like the changes on all three ships.
Hyperion - goes either cap dead (1 booster + probable enemy neuts + blaster energy consumption) or unable to hit targets and eventually DIAF-ing. Megathron - loses cap stability (because of RoF), loses damage because of reduced bandwidth and loses active tanking capabilty (which is a so-so change, since it had better tank than the Hyperion, which is supposed to have better). Dominix - loses damage. Drones can be destroyed, guns cannot. Besides, we have plenty of midslots for tracking modules/webs.
Please, redesign all changes. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
823
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:00:00 -
[631] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need. I hate to break it to you but a 50% rate of fire bonus does not mean you are shooting twice as fast, you will be shooting 1.5x as fast. So you saying that a rate of fire bonus is superior to a damage bonus is incorrect because rate of fire bonus will suck more cap. If your rate of fire is 10 and you reduce that by 50% what does that become?? A rate of fire of 5 Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Major Killz
177
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:00:00 -
[632] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.
Yes. Do that.
I suppose paying you to read forum post is a very tough job. I DEMAND CUSTOMER SERVICE! |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:01:00 -
[633] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need. I hate to break it to you but a 50% rate of fire bonus does not mean you are shooting twice as fast, you will be shooting 1.5x as fast. So you saying that a rate of fire bonus is superior to a damage bonus is incorrect because rate of fire bonus will suck more cap.
No. CCP rise is correct. The ROF bonus is not in fact a rof bonus. Its reduction of Fire period. So if you fire once every 10 seconds, with 50% rof bonus as its applied in eve you get to fire once every 5 seconds. The name of the bonus is misleading. Its in fact MUCh more powerful than it seems. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
719
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:05:00 -
[634] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.
What about our promised Res bonus thread? >=[
Also people are a lot happier about the other bs's so its normal for him to comment more here. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
719
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:07:00 -
[635] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need. I hate to break it to you but a 50% rate of fire bonus does not mean you are shooting twice as fast, you will be shooting 1.5x as fast. So you saying that a rate of fire bonus is superior to a damage bonus is incorrect because rate of fire bonus will suck more cap. If your rate of fire is 10 and you reduce that by 50% what does that become?? A rate of fire of 5
Math, it works.
Bitches BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
Major Killz
177
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:08:00 -
[636] - Quote
This is no Rokh.
So this fleet would lack resistence. Which would result in inferior effective remote shield boost (more resistance means more damage mitigation). This setup will be much more susceptible to volley damage (aplha). The ship will track ALOT better though.
Still! It is an option worth considering.
550 damage per second @ 70,000m.
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Field II 100MN Microwarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L [empty high slot]
Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
- killz |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
533
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:10:00 -
[637] - Quote
Roime wrote:Question remains why would anyone fly a neut Domi in the summer, when the Geddon gets a bonus to neut range, can fit more heavy neuts with better tank and same drone dps?
However issues with drones are not optimal or tracking, they are UI, sig radius, EHP, chase/orbit mechanism, AI and sentry scoop range. These were the things that were supposed to be fixed. The Dominix has the midslots to maintain said neuts much much better than the Armageddon does. It's strength has always been in its versatility, and the ship gaining better drones while keeping a ton of lows/mids/highs keeps it competitive.
Roime wrote:These roaming battleships have a massive sig, no means of holding range and are still much slower, worse scan res and with increased cap consumption of the blasters, Mega needs the 5th mid for a cap booster, leaving the shield fit with ~73K EHP. For a ship that gets scrammed and close orbited to death by T1 cruisers with TDs, that's not a lot of tank.
Suggested Mega has **** all tank in either shield or armor fit, both base values are massively lower than what the Tempest sports. And it's still slow. I wouldn't say it's got **** all tank. You're still looking at a ship capable of over 110k ehp, with a large rep, 900dps ions, and a neut; all in the same fit. When shield fit it's better than it was, but at the end of the day, the Mega isn't a shield ship. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:15:00 -
[638] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. What about our promised Res bonus thread? >=[ Also people are a lot happier about the other bs's so its normal for him to comment more here.
A lot happier? Checked minamtar thread? Basically not a single post of approvement. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
533
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:16:00 -
[639] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. What about our promised Res bonus thread? >=[ Also people are a lot happier about the other bs's so its normal for him to comment more here. A lot happier? Checked minamtar thread? Basically not a single post of approvement. The only uniform complaint in that thread seems to be about sig nerfs to the pest & phoon. Few have realized how insane the phoon now is (despite promised missile changes), and how strong the Tempest is. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:16:00 -
[640] - Quote
I don't think people are overly worried about the Dominix right now.
Hyperion and Mega still needs to be looked at (slot layout issue). Specifically the Hyperion. It needs range projection, or speed if you want it to use blasters, and it needs it if you want the active tank to work. |
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
299
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:18:00 -
[641] - Quote
Megathrone changes are just great. Dont do anyhting more to it. PPL are just plain stupid and dont understand a thing about the game except to moan.
U get the same damn tank: 2 plates, 2 eanm, 1DC U get 1 less low for a mag stab but u damn morons now have a rof bonus which is >>> pure dmg. U lose a bit of dps in -25 drone bay but u get: - Faster - Agile - A bit better cap situation - And lower signature
And on top of everything u get the damn mid slot as a bonus!
Hyperion and Domi are needed to be looked at a bit.
Imo Hyperion is tricky. There are 2 options imo: - 1 less highslot with 5% of rof bonus and + 1 lowslot - or just boost his default stats a bit. Some more armor, drone bw, speed and agility
Gallente needs some large scale battle BS and imo the new Domi can do the trick. With new bonuses it can fill the role same as the abaddon. Better sniper with sentries (smth in line with mael and rokh) and can be very good at close range too sa Abadon is. + the versatility that can be added into the highs if wanted.
But for the Domi to play such a role and for other drone ships to play a role in a fleet doctrine, drone interface needs to be changed and some bits more about sentries.
All other 3 races are just fine. Love the new Armagedon and Typhoon. The only thing is dont lower the res bonuses to abaddon and rokh. They are great anti blob ships, but still dont have that upper hand to deserve a nerf. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
IceGuerilla
Poseidon's Wingmen Perihelion Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:19:00 -
[642] - Quote
Is there a specific reason why no BS will keep 8 lowslots, given that you're trying to push armour tanking on us? |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:21:00 -
[643] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Seriously, nobody care about trakcing and drone optimal since drones boat are rarely use in fleet, small gang and PVE (drone get aggro now). JFC! Where do you all dwell dudes, in Dumbland? SENTRY DRONES ARE USED IN LARGE FLEET PVP!!! Those are called slowcats! The carriers with sentries, you know! Not with fighter - their intended weapon - but sentries! And I use them in PVE, they perform super good despite some AI change and stuff. Better than Machariel I'd say. I know that, cause I used to fly it as well. |
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:24:00 -
[644] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Seriously, nobody care about trakcing and drone optimal since drones boat are rarely use in fleet, small gang and PVE (drone get aggro now). JFC! Where do you all dwell dudes, in Dumbland? SENTRY DRONES ARE USED IN LARGE FLEET PVP!!!Those are called slowcats! The carriers with sentries, you know! Not with fighter - their intended weapon - but sentries!
Keep carriers out of the equation, we are talking about droneboat battleships, mkay? I can't think of a single case when droneboat battleships had been used in a fleet. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:25:00 -
[645] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Seriously, nobody care about trakcing and drone optimal since drones boat are rarely use in fleet, small gang and PVE (drone get aggro now). JFC! Where do you all dwell dudes, in Dumbland? SENTRY DRONES ARE USED IN LARGE FLEET PVP!!!Those are called slowcats! The carriers with sentries, you know! Not with fighter - their intended weapon - but sentries!
Domis have 3 sets of sentries. Slowcats have innumerably more. Domis move. Slowcats do not. Domis have a tenth of the EHP and don't do as well repping each other.
Let me teach you about sentry drones in fleet pvp. |
culo duro
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:25:00 -
[646] - Quote
TBH my opinon on the hyperion would to change the repper bonus entirely, and go for a resist bonus like the baddon. Let's face it, how often do you step into a BS to go fight another BS or even two, without an escalation that makes the rep bonus irrevelant. I mean CCP Rise you said it yourself the regular fit would be, 2 eanms, 2 plates, 1 dcu, and 2 utility slots.
Either that or it needs a huge damage increase to being close to viable. I as a gallente pilot, would take a baddon over the Hyperion everyday when these changes get in. The baddon got the resist bonus, if you wanna make an hyperion viable for fleet warfare please put in a resist bonus on it, instead of the repper bonus.
Amarr is stealing our drones, let's steal their resist. I'm sure we'd see a proper use for the hyperion if it got reworked like that. Let's face it, the Megathron is becoming less viable in fleet comps, so it'll most likely become a Mission runner.
The Dominix get's drone damage bonus, and tracking bonuses which only a mission runner can use properly. If you're saying Bootstrap domi, or neut domi the geddon will be able to do it better. With the increased cap on the geddon and the possibility for a 4th high slot for an energy transfer with 3 reppers it'll simply be better than the domi, AND it's tank will be bigger.
As suggested i think it could be really ******* cool if the domi became a mini carrier. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: + 25 Bandwidth and +75 Drone bay +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
552
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:26:00 -
[647] - Quote
Sentry drones are incredibly common in pvp, from ishtar/gila fleets, prophecy fleets, domi "boot" fleets, slowcats, gatecamping domis, gatecamping carriers, etc. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:28:00 -
[648] - Quote
Afandi wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Seriously, nobody care about trakcing and drone optimal since drones boat are rarely use in fleet, small gang and PVE (drone get aggro now). JFC! Where do you all dwell dudes, in Dumbland? SENTRY DRONES ARE USED IN LARGE FLEET PVP!!!Those are called slowcats! The carriers with sentries, you know! Not with fighter - their intended weapon - but sentries! Keep carriers out of the equation, we are talking about droneboat battleships, mkay? I can't think of a single case when droneboat battleships had been used in a fleet.
With the tracking and optimal boni + mjd i think u can do alot of snipe damage in pve. PVP is another question i like to use drones mainly a mix out of ecm + damage drones but havent done bs pvp in a long time. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
823
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:30:00 -
[649] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
So what you are telling us is that we will have to wade through another 30 pages before we get new stats to plug in? Better get my boots on. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:30:00 -
[650] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Domis have 3 sets of sentries. Slowcats have innumerably more. Domis move. Slowcats do not. Domis have a tenth of the EHP and don't do as well repping each other.
Let me teach you about sentry drones in fleet pvp. Then stop moving your Domi and dont forget to scoop them drones before you warp. EHP and reps are irrelevant. Now please, gosu, explain how can I use heavy drones for... well at least for something? |
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
299
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:31:00 -
[651] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Seriously, nobody care about trakcing and drone optimal since drones boat are rarely use in fleet, small gang and PVE (drone get aggro now). JFC! Where do you all dwell dudes, in Dumbland? SENTRY DRONES ARE USED IN LARGE FLEET PVP!!!Those are called slowcats! The carriers with sentries, you know! Not with fighter - their intended weapon - but sentries! Domis have 3 sets of sentries. Slowcats have innumerably more. Domis move. Slowcats do not. Domis have a tenth of the EHP and don't do as well repping each other. Let me teach you about sentry drones in fleet pvp.
Domi can fill the role of a fleet BS. It can have great sniping ranges (150km with around 600 dps). It can than warp on enemy fleet and with blaster and heavies brawl with em.
The only problem is that fleets need moving, that is the biggest problem with drone boats, sentries dont follow.
Maybe it is time for CCP to look into it. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
823
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:32:00 -
[652] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Domis have 3 sets of sentries. Slowcats have innumerably more. Domis move. Slowcats do not. Domis have a tenth of the EHP and don't do as well repping each other.
Let me teach you about sentry drones in fleet pvp. Then stop moving your Domi and dont forget to scoop them drones before you warp. EHP and reps are irrelevant. Now please, gosu, explain how can I use heavy drones for... well at least for something? With the buff to optimal and tracking heavy drones become even better vs. cruisers and battle cruisers when they get in close. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:37:00 -
[653] - Quote
Afandi wrote:Keep carriers out of the equation, we are talking about droneboat battleships, mkay? I can't think of a single case when droneboat battleships had been used in a fleet. Bloody hell! You see that PL dude down here? They used those Navy Domis, with sentry drones. You warp in position, you mocro-jump off, you deploy drones, you assign them. When yellowboxed, switch on Target Breaker and GTFO. What do you say now? I was in a fleet of sentry cruisers. Wait what? Yeah, just what you've heard. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
534
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:38:00 -
[654] - Quote
If sentries would return to ships (maybe not as fast as heavies), then much of the hubbub about them would be gone :) -áwww.promsrage.com |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:39:00 -
[655] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Domis have 3 sets of sentries. Slowcats have innumerably more. Domis move. Slowcats do not. Domis have a tenth of the EHP and don't do as well repping each other.
Let me teach you about sentry drones in fleet pvp. Then stop moving your Domi and dont forget to scoop them drones before you warp. EHP and reps are irrelevant. Now please, gosu, explain how can I use heavy drones for... well at least for something?
Just "stop moving your domi" isn't really good advice. There are plenty of reasons why you should, would or have to move. EHP is very relevant for any BS platform, especially one that is immobile as you suggest!
Heavy drones are more useful in smaller scale battles where the enemies are not spread out or at long ranges. Warping on top of people with short range BS is useful but sentries are better in big battles when you don't need to worry about smaller ships.
Zloco Crendraven wrote: Domi can fill the role of a fleet BS. It can have great sniping ranges (150km with around 600 dps). It can than warp on enemy fleet and with blaster and heavies brawl with em.
The only problem is that fleets need moving, that is the biggest problem with drone boats, sentries dont follow.
Maybe it is time for CCP to look into it.
I'm not saying that 150km with 600 dps and uber tracking isn't good. It is great. It's not fun but it's statistically great. On paper sentry domi fleets will be quite good, overpowered even.
For a short while. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:41:00 -
[656] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:The only problem is that fleets need moving, that is the biggest problem with drone boats, sentries dont follow.
Maybe it is time for CCP to look into it. No! You want moving drones - use heavies, period. You want range with sentries - then sit still in place or loose them. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
192
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:42:00 -
[657] - Quote
Thoughts in more detail.
A note on my perspective: I mostly fly solo, and engage wartargets in highsec and basically anyone I can in lowsec. When relly bored I run L4 missions. I fly cheap fits, change my fits often and will happily engage more than one target simultaneously when solo. (Often I look for the opportunity to do so).
Dominix: - I typically field an active armor tank here, except in the very rare case that I have active logi support. Usually 2 DDAs, 2 LARs, DCU and 2 resist modules in the lows, a prop mod, scram, two webs and a utility mod in the mid slots, and the highs can be guns, neutralisers or (rarely) logistics modules, with the guns at the smaller end of battleship guns to fit. - At range, the boat applies enough pressure through sentries to get foes into close range. It then uses its surprisingly effective range dictation (two tech 2 webs is a ~82% slow) and rips the target apart with Ogre 2s and blasters. - Key to this tactic is the ability to kill your foe before help arrives. This is the role blasters and the blaster bonus plays for the boat. If I've found a sucker in a lowsec belt or 12km from a highsec gate, I need to burn them down fast.
Thoughts on the overhaul: - The sentry bonus (the new drone bonus to tracking, which is primarily a sentry bonus as even Ogre 2s track fairly well). I feel sentry drones do not promote fun gameplay. Pseudo-AFK sentry drone PVE has thankfully been undermined by the AI changes and they are now in a good place in PVE, useful but not dominant. But in my PVP experience (fleet/blob veterans may disagree) they don't perform any role overly well - serious sniping with them takes up so many slots it leaves your boat a one-trick pony and requires separate tackle. - Oddly the sentry range bonus helps Caldari sentry drones more than anything else. - The blaster bonus and manouverbility will, however, be missed.
My suggestions: - Consider instead a boost to drone MWD speed. Instead of buffing the boring sentry drones, this is a significant boost to the much more active heavy drones that to me are the hallmark of this boat. - Secondly drone survivability is an issue. Maybe also consider a boost to drone armor resistances and/or a boost to remote repair - not enough to make the Dominix even remotely viable as a logi boat, but as a way to make repairing your own drones in combat more viable. Losing a drone that is engaging a target at 20km means losing 20% of your drone DPS for a good ten to fifteen seconds.
Megathron/Hyperion
Bunching these together as like you say, they are quite similar boats, with one more mobile and the other more durable. Two suggestions, intended as an either-or.
Suggestion 1: A New Role Here I really would like to see a new role created (which would differentiate the two) - a subcapital variation on the Dreadnought that can be fitted to deal extreme damage to structures, immobile snipers, and basically anything stupid enough not to keep some transversal against it. I'd be happy to see the Megathron remain as per your initial ideas (or with minor changes), while the Hyp gains the ability to fit a new module that gives it +150% damage, -80% tracking, +300% align time and -90% max speed. (I have NOT run numbers on these, just consider the concept not the numbers).
This would give it a new role in highsec wars (POS bashing), as a way for supcap fleets in sovereign nullsec to pose a credible threat of reinforcing a POS with a small/medium gang, would add a way for players considering the Dreadnought path to see how a Dreadnought plays before making that huge investment and learning how to move a capital ship.
Suggestion 2: Mega for fleets, Hyp for solo As a less radical alternative role for the Hyp, you could decide 'The Mega is the fleet ship, designed around the assumption of friendly logi available, the Hyp is the small gang/solo ship with the better local tank'. One idea here would be to give the Hyp a sup-standard resist profile (so logi hate it) but give it a bigger boost from both local repairs and also equipped armor plates.
Something like this: - Resist profile as present but with -5% to each - Local armor rep bonus: Amount repaired +10% per Gall BS skill level - Armor plate bonus: HP from plates increased by 15% per level of Gall BS
'... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:43:00 -
[658] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
I would like to remind you that snipping isn't as effective strategy as you make it out to be. The opponent can always warp out before you kill him and get in close to you after that.
I like the bonuses you are proposing for the Dominix, but you should consider that relying solely on drones can let you without any weapons to defend or attack.
Furthermore I would suggest you consider especially for the Dominix (if it's going to remain a dedicated drone boat) to increase it's base CPU. Every drone module requires CPU and the Drone rigs affect CPU as well. The fits on every drone boat are quite tight on CPU. And without a different option available we would appreciate the ability to fit more drone modules without forcing us to compromise on everything else.
Also consider more midslots for the Dominix. Reduce the high slots to 5 (or 4) and and 1 mid slot at least. |
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:45:00 -
[659] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Afandi wrote:Keep carriers out of the equation, we are talking about droneboat battleships, mkay? I can't think of a single case when droneboat battleships had been used in a fleet. Bloody hell! You see that PL dude down here? They used those Navy Domis, with sentry drones. You warp in position, you mocro-jump off, you deploy drones, you assign them. When yellowboxed, switch on Target Breaker and GTFO. What do you say now? I was in a fleet of sentry cruisers. Wait what? Yeah, just what you've heard.
I stand corrected then. Still, it's rare and they used FN Dominixes. Gila/Ishtar fleets are more common, sentry cruisers don't amuse me. :) |
Lenier Chenal
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:46:00 -
[660] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated.
Just waiting until the next "fix" totally ruins the gallente BS line even further. |
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
300
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:46:00 -
[661] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:The only problem is that fleets need moving, that is the biggest problem with drone boats, sentries dont follow.
Maybe it is time for CCP to look into it. No! You want moving drones - use heavies, period. You want range with sentries - then sit still in place or loose them.
Adn thats why drone boats except 1v1 or smth bigger and beside PvE sucks LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2471
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:47:00 -
[662] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: The Dominix has the midslots to maintain said neuts much much better than the Armageddon does. It's strength has always been in its versatility, and the ship gaining better drones while keeping a ton of lows/mids/highs keeps it competitive.
The Geddon gets +1 mid and has stronger base capacitor. Optimal bonus is largely useless for mobile drones, which rely on the broken activation proximity mechanic, and correct drones used against correct targets have comparatively good tracking. as a result these suggested bonuses mostly help with sentry setups.
Sentry drones are great in PVE (and possibly blob warfare), but aren't really viable in much more mobile and close-range small gang pew.
Still I'm not as strongly opposed to the new Domi as initially, it will hurt my solo C3 fit, but help our RR Domis. For neut Domis the change is irrelevant.
Quote: I wouldn't say it's got **** all tank. You're still looking at a ship capable of over 110k ehp, with a large rep, 900dps ions, and a neut; all in the same fit. When shield fit it's better than it was, but at the end of the day, the Mega isn't a shield ship.
That's my main issue with this change- 110K and 900dps with AM is not a lot, and 5th mid doesn't make it a shield ship. In the end the Mega is an armor brawler, and fits that role better in it's current form.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:49:00 -
[663] - Quote
Dominix The Dominix doesn't have the fitting slots to support guns and drones to their full extent, even right now. The Herd Domi is a thing. The neut Domi is a thing. The DPS domi is an EFT thing only. Drones need several damage mods and omnidirectionals to function at full efficiency right now. That leaves no room for gun mods that would be required to make blasters or rails halfway usable when they aren't shooting a structure. On the other hand, this tracking bonus is a monster. You guys are complaining about a 50% optimal range and tracking bonus! WHATS WRONG WITH YOU? Its going to be overpowered. And yet I hear people whining that the Domi didn't get a sensor damper bonus or wishing for that useless gun bonus back. This new thing will track like a monster. It will put more DPS further than any other short range problem. Some Domi lighting you up from 50KM will feel like a Megathron 5KM away. Then it can scoop its Gardes, drop Curators, and be a sniper. The only reason I'm not shouting for CCP to nerf this is because drones can be bombed and aren't mobile. Do you guys realize how important tracking is? 1600DPS means nothing if you can't apply it because you're drones aren't able to hit and your blasters are out of range.
Megathron I roll my Megathron with trimarks and a 4 lowslot tank. Then I fit 2 damage mods and a tracking enhancer. Tracking enhancers are getting nerfed. After the change I will fit exactly the same except the tracking enhancer will become a tracking computer. If I ever feel the need to make a shield nano pest again I will use a Megathron instead. Its fine although CCP may have done this for the wrong reason. It is already possible to fit a MJD on there without the fifth mid. MWD / MJD / Cap Booster / Point. Then you use your utility high to fit a heavy neut giving you decent tackle. I think CCP intends that you can also fit a web.
I think the core point people are missing out on is the tracking enhancer nerf. After the nerf, the tracking computer will be the preferred damage module.
Hyperion The Hyperion needs its midslots. It doesn't have room for a heavy neut. That means that it needs 2 midslots worth of tackle if its going to hold anything down to try to hit it. Then it needs a propulsion mod. Then it needs a cap booster. The problem is that the Hype can't run the tank it normally does off 1 cap booster. Everything it does uses cap. The guns, the propulsion, the tackle, the reps. If pilots are expected to fly a tiny gang ship without tackle, how is the massive self rep of the Hype going to do any good? Anyone fighting it will kill its tackler buddy and fly away. The self tank of the Hype won't matter at all. The slot and turret layout of the new Hype imply a fleet ship. But to be a good fleet ship it needs a second bonus. It doesn't have the alpha of a Mael, the tank of a Rohk. It needs something more if it wants to compete in that arena.The active tank bonus is frustrating. If it must stay then the slot layout should support the goddamn thing. Otherwise drop it and do something better with the bonus. |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
501
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:52:00 -
[664] - Quote
Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
Was a useable fleet Gal BS really out of the question?
Also making the Mega more like a pest was funny, cause the pest is only ever used on mass as throw away cap ganking ships cause in fleets there useless.
Giving the BS's new roles is nice, but not even giving the Gal BS a fleet member is sad. Small gang ganks sure. But ganks are in no way fun for more then 20 seconds. I want a Gal BS that will live more then 20 seconds into a fleet fight.
Please remove the useless extra high slot on the mega and return it to the low slot. Mega doesn't need a neut on it. It needs 7 lows. Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:55:00 -
[665] - Quote
MukkBarovian wrote: Hyperion The Hyperion needs its midslots. It doesn't have room for a heavy neut. That means that it needs 2 midslots worth of tackle if its going to hold anything down to try to hit it. Then it needs a propulsion mod. Then it needs a cap booster. The problem is that the Hype can't run the tank it normally does off 1 cap booster. Everything it does uses cap. The guns, the propulsion, the tackle, the reps. If pilots are expected to fly a tiny gang ship without tackle, how is the massive self rep of the Hype going to do any good? Anyone fighting it will kill its tackler buddy and fly away. The self tank of the Hype won't matter at all. The slot and turret layout of the new Hype imply a fleet ship. But to be a good fleet ship it needs a second bonus. It doesn't have the alpha of a Mael, the tank of a Rohk. It needs something more if it wants to compete in that arena.The active tank bonus is frustrating. If it must stay then the slot layout should support the goddamn thing. Otherwise drop it and do something better with the bonus.
I personally think the slot layout is ok with these changes but more cap is needed, have overseen that they didnt increase it at first. |
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:56:00 -
[666] - Quote
About sentry drones scooping thing...i am pretty sure they can make them teleport into dronebay with some delay, like scan probes do. Would totally solve all problems with them...and probably make them horribly overpowered |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
539
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:57:00 -
[667] - Quote
Roime wrote:That's my main issue with this change- 110K and 900dps with AM is not a lot, and 5th mid doesn't make it a shield ship. In the end the Mega is an armor brawler, and fits that role better in it's current form. See, but it isn't really. In current trim, your average buffer Mega is probably around 1000dps (before heat/void) with ~127k ehp, and less utility in the mids. The new Mega, with the same fit, is ~10k ehp LESS, with damage output being nearly identical, and gaining a whole new world of uses for that extra mid (TD/breaker/web/MJD/AB/cap).
At the very very worst, you're losing out on some of the maximum damage potential (~150-200dps) which is a result of the drone loss and not the low slot. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
269
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:59:00 -
[668] - Quote
sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
Was a useable fleet Gal BS really out of the question? Look at the Hyperion and Dominix. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
301
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:00:00 -
[669] - Quote
sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
5% rof bonus + 1 mag stab = 5% dmg bonus + 2 mag stab
Now u have 1 more mid slot for or web or the track comp, which means that 5% rof + 1 mag stab dps better applied than the old fit. And on top of that u get the same tank, better cap, speed and agility. Stop whining.
LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:00:00 -
[670] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Just "stop moving your domi" isn't really good advice. There are plenty of reasons why you should, would or have to move. EHP is very relevant for any BS platform, especially one that is immobile as you suggest!
Heavy drones are more useful in smaller scale battles where the enemies are not spread out or at long ranges. Warping on top of people with short range BS is useful but sentries are better in big battles when you don't need to worry about smaller ships. Yes, and unlike slowcats it actually CAN move if you choose to. Want to save drones? Sit still. Want to move - loose drones. It's fair. What is NOT fair is that even capital-sized drones are inferior to sentries. Have you ever seen a dread with BS-sized guns? And heavy drones for close range? No, sir. Use gardes. Enemy pulled the range? Switch to bouncers. The only case you want heavies - is when you dont have a spare flight in your bay.
Dez Affinity wrote:I'm not saying that 150km with 600 dps and uber tracking isn't good. It is great. It's not fun but it's statistically great. On paper sentry domi fleets will be quite good, overpowered even. For a short while. Here, finally! At least someone competent finally acknowledged sentries ~could~ be overpowered. If you dudes spent more time doing PVP instead of super-blobbing, you'd already had a solid working doctrine. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
824
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:03:00 -
[671] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
Was a useable fleet Gal BS really out of the question? Look at the Hyperion and Dominix. One thing I have always liked about Gallente ships is that they can fit into both armor and shield fleets fairly well, with the additional mid slot to the Megathron it will be able to do that also. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
301
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:03:00 -
[672] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Just "stop moving your domi" isn't really good advice. There are plenty of reasons why you should, would or have to move. EHP is very relevant for any BS platform, especially one that is immobile as you suggest!
Heavy drones are more useful in smaller scale battles where the enemies are not spread out or at long ranges. Warping on top of people with short range BS is useful but sentries are better in big battles when you don't need to worry about smaller ships. Yes, and unlike slowcats it actually CAN move if you choose to. Want to save drones? Sit still. Want to move - loose drones. It's fair. What is NOT fair is that even capital-sized drones are inferior to sentries. Have you ever seen a dread with BS-sized guns? And heavy drones for close range? No, sir. Use gardes. Enemy pulled the range? Switch to bouncers. The only case you want heavies - is when you dont have a spare flight in your bay. Dez Affinity wrote:I'm not saying that 150km with 600 dps and uber tracking isn't good. It is great. It's not fun but it's statistically great. On paper sentry domi fleets will be quite good, overpowered even. For a short while. Here, finally! At least someone competent finally acknowledged sentries ~could~ be overpowered. If you dudes spent more time doing PVP instead of super-blobbing, you'd already had a solid working doctrine.
Nah drone boats in large scale pvp sux! Other ships are much more better only because of 1 reason, u cannot move if u get sentries out. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2471
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:05:00 -
[673] - Quote
Giving sentry drones 5000m scoop range would make them much usable without breaking the whole concept of stationary drones.
You could orbit them and gtfo without leaving one or two behind, or even do short & slow align.
MukkBarovian,
drones already have enough tracking to land solid hits all the time when you use the right type of drones. Improving tracking further is EFT value, it doesn't improve applied damage. Most of drone dps is lost due to them toggling MWD/orbit modes, travelling to targets, sentries already hit at full damage at their optimals.
(Mega does +1100 dps at 5km, Dominix +800 @ 50km)
But why aren't sentry Domis OP now? You can get the same range and tracking currently.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Major Killz
177
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:05:00 -
[674] - Quote
sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
Was a useable fleet Gal BS really out of the question?
Also making the Mega more like a pest was funny, cause the pest is only ever used on mass as throw away cap ganking ships cause in fleets there useless.
Giving the BS's new roles is nice, but not even giving the Gal BS a fleet member is sad. Small gang ganks sure. But ganks are in no way fun for more then 20 seconds. I want a Gal BS that will live more then 20 seconds into a fleet fight.
Please remove the useless extra high slot on the mega and return it to the low slot. Mega doesn't need a neut on it. It needs 7 lows.
The Dominix is suppose to be used in FLEETS. The proposed Mega will be used in smaller scale warfare. I may be wrong but the new Mega will be going 1300 - 1400m/sec properly fitted and will have the EHP of 3 - 4 Talos. Depending on the setup even more effective EHP with an ASB.
I am sure many know of the close range NAga setups with blasters with around 40k EHP and having the same effective damage mitigation of a Guardian with 4 large tech 2 reps. I'm fairly sure a fleet od 30 Megathrons with that damage projection and 80kEHP and massive damage but mobility intact will not be ignored. They will be able to engage close range and Sh!t damage or kite at range and skirmish.
- killz |
Geraltd
Totalitarian Hydra Invention and Research Unit RED University
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:06:00 -
[675] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
You should add then "and Drone control range" |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:06:00 -
[676] - Quote
MukkBarovian wrote:Dominix ... You guys are complaining about a 50% optimal range and tracking bonus! WHATS WRONG WITH YOU? Its going to be overpowered. That's exactly the reason why I'm complaining. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:15:00 -
[677] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. What about our promised Res bonus thread? >=[ Also people are a lot happier about the other bs's so its normal for him to comment more here. A lot happier? Checked minamtar thread? Basically not a single post of approvement. The only uniform complaint in that thread seems to be about sig nerfs to the pest & phoon. Few have realized how insane the phoon now is (despite promised missile changes), and how strong the Tempest is.
the issue is less bout strength but about UNMIMATARIZATION of the tempest, the signature being the main thing. And some complaints about the drone reduction o the typhoon. I think typhoon complains are a bit unjustified, but the drones could very well stay and they could keep 2 unbonused turrets (even with only 1 free high) just to keep people happy.
But the tempest is being forced in a NON minmatar ship and a bad non minmatar ship. Most tempests used lack CPU when AC fit with shield tank and the PG boost is stil not enough to make ANY fitting change for an arty boat (the same number of fit modules are needed, therefore the PG boost is useless.
The tempest simply have no realistic use. Because the maelstrom is FAR surperior and can do the same the tempest do but better.
|
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:17:00 -
[678] - Quote
Roime wrote:But why aren't sentry Domis OP now? You can get the same range and tracking currently. They are. I switched from Machariel to a Domi, though a navy one, for running missions. A little boring? Yes, indeed. Cheap and efficient? You bet it. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2471
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:19:00 -
[679] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Roime wrote:That's my main issue with this change- 110K and 900dps with AM is not a lot, and 5th mid doesn't make it a shield ship. In the end the Mega is an armor brawler, and fits that role better in it's current form. See, but it isn't really. In current trim, your average buffer Mega is probably around 1000dps (before heat/void) with ~127k ehp, and less utility in the mids. The new Mega, with the same fit, is ~10k ehp LESS, with damage output being nearly identical, and gaining a whole new world of uses for that extra mid (TD/breaker/web/MJD/AB/cap). At the very very worst, you're losing out on some of the maximum damage potential (~150-200dps) which is a result of the drone loss and not the low slot.
Yeah, magstab loss is countered by the ROF bonus.
Looks like it doesn't have the fittings for adding MJD or breaker without downgrading the guns or neut. Sure, dual webs or TC are nice additions.
It's still a slow, big, slow-locking armor brawler.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
722
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:20:00 -
[680] - Quote
Optimal/tracking bonus on the drones won't only make sentries better
It will make all drones apply dps way better since about 80% of the problem with them is that they are dumb ***** who missmanage their prop mods and are constantly out of their optimal because of it. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:21:00 -
[681] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote: Here, finally! At least someone competent finally acknowledged sentries ~could~ be overpowered. If you dudes spent more time doing PVP instead of super-blobbing, you'd already had a solid working doctrine.
We've already done a Navy Domi Sentry fleet and this was before these changes. So uh. What are you talking about? |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:22:00 -
[682] - Quote
I think what people are most upset with about the Domi is that it's completely lost it's versatility.
- Close range brawler? - quite diminished in this capacity
- Neut domi? - utterly inferior
- Sniping sentry Domi? - Domi could do this before. Why would we care that we have extra mid-slots free from needing OTL II now when we don't need the mid-slots for extra tank as a sniper, and we also don't need tackle slots as a sniper?
- Dropping sentries and chugging in to be an inferior brawler? The Domi is slower than ever as well which makes this an awkward proposition. Is our fleet supposed to wait for us to mosey over and scoop up our sentries every new battle? Are we expected to abandon them? We can kiss them goodbye every scatter as well. Not to mention even with mobile sentry retraction the Domi would be inferior in this role. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
564
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:24:00 -
[683] - Quote
Roime wrote:Giving sentry drones 5000m scoop range would make them much usable without breaking the whole concept of stationary drones... Would go in a completely different direction, give them a slow'ish travel speed and have them 'pack up' (ie. no longer shooting) and move towards controller when recalled .. maybe even deploy in same manner so that one can send them to set up anywhere within control range (think platforms in Homeworld 2).
People are begging for a drone UI/Control overhaul, so might as well go all the way
Roime wrote:But why aren't sentry Domis OP now? You can get the same range and tracking currently. Because you don't .. that bonus is replacing the large gun bonus. It will become a very viable sentry sniper, especially since we recently got a low slot and rig option to boost drone damage .. going to be nasty as hell. Will be godly in brawls as well, since range+tracking allows you to use heavies to swat even frigs .. can almost do so now with an assortment of drone mods .. again, nasty as hell.
But it is destructible dps, so wouldn't slap the OP moniker on it just yet. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:25:00 -
[684] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Nah drone boats in large scale pvp sux! Other ships are much more better only because of 1 reason, u cannot move if u get sentries out. Do you have reading comprehension problems? Once again: you CAN move, if you chose to. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
360
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:25:00 -
[685] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
I really, really liked your first iteration of the Mega and Hype so I hope you're not mistaking "affectionate hysteria" with "possible gamebreaking"? Will be looking forward to see what you've come up with... And about the other threads you really should look at the scorpion and the Rokh and take a serious look at the attack battlecruisers again ;-) |
Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
192
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:26:00 -
[686] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
Was a useable fleet Gal BS really out of the question?
Also making the Mega more like a pest was funny, cause the pest is only ever used on mass as throw away cap ganking ships cause in fleets there useless.
Giving the BS's new roles is nice, but not even giving the Gal BS a fleet member is sad. Small gang ganks sure. But ganks are in no way fun for more then 20 seconds. I want a Gal BS that will live more then 20 seconds into a fleet fight.
Please remove the useless extra high slot on the mega and return it to the low slot. Mega doesn't need a neut on it. It needs 7 lows. The Dominix is suppose to be used in FLEETS. The proposed Mega will be used in smaller scale warfare. I may be wrong but the new Mega will be going 1300 - 1400m/sec properly fitted and will have the EHP of 3 - 4 Talos. Depending on the setup even more effective EHP with an ASB. I am sure many know of the close range NAga setups with blasters with around 40k EHP and having the same effective damage mitigation of a Guardian with 4 large tech 2 reps. I'm fairly sure a fleet od 30 Megathrons with that damage projection and 80kEHP and massive damage but mobility intact will not be ignored. They will be able to engage close range and Sh!t damage or kite at range and skirmish. EXAMPLE Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II 10MN Microwarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II EM Ward Field II Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I - killz
The Dominix is arguably the best solo tech 1 battleship for PVP at present. It is not a fleet-only boat.
I came VERY close to defeating a four-person gang solo in a Domi recently - an Astarte, an Oneiros, a Proteus and an Enyo. The Astarte engaged me as bait, and I had it in deep structure with me at 80% armor before the Oneiros reps landed. Even then I quickly had the logi neuted out and had the Astarte at low armor before popping.
Had the Oneiros landed 5 seconds later, I'd have popped the Astarte, caught the Proteus, forced the Enyo and Oneiros from the field and then popped the Proteus in a 140m Domi fit. As it was I only failed to escape because the Oneiros had an unusual (and smart for their gang) fit with a long point.
So yeah, the Domi is not just a fleet boat. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:30:00 -
[687] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote: Here, finally! At least someone competent finally acknowledged sentries ~could~ be overpowered. If you dudes spent more time doing PVP instead of super-blobbing, you'd already had a solid working doctrine.
We've already done a Navy Domi Sentry fleet and this was before these changes. So uh. What are you talking about? I know you did. Was it success? If yes - why dont we see that doctrine anymore? If not - why dont you improve that? |
Gary Goat
XDC-UK
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:31:00 -
[688] - Quote
Interesting changes, I cant say I like them all.
Megathron: The good
I like the direction you're going with the megathron. Its faster and has more utility whilst retaining the blaster damage thanks to the rof bonus compensating for the loss of a low. The loss of a heavy drone hurts and seems a bit unnecessary. Also a bit more cap or cap regen would be nice to negate the increased cap use from the new bonus.
Hyperion: The bad
The hyperion has always been a meh ship in my eyes. It was previously gimped by the limited low slots and its always been extremely cap hungry to the point that you need 2 cap injectors due to 8 turrets + at least 2 large reps to get the most from its bonuses. With the new changes you gain some tank at the expense of a mid slot that would have been used for extra tackle (to counter the bad tracking) or extra cap injector (to counter the stupendous cap usage). Different slot layout, same problems. The rep bonus just has too many negatives to make it feasible on a battleship that needs to feed 8 high slots.
Dominix: The Ugly
The domi has always been a versatile boat and maybe the most versatile ship in the entire game. You never really knew how it was going to be fit until you engaged it which was its saving grace really, it also had great adaptability in the ever changing meta of eve online. The geddon has now taken away its role as a neuting drone boat (one of its best roles for small gangs) and the loss of the hybrid bonus has killed it in PVE and large fleets (although it was never very good in fleets anyway). The new domi looks like a bigger myrmidon without the tanking bonus which makes the myrmidon good. Maybe it should be the ship with that rep bonus instead of the hyp? |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
703
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:31:00 -
[689] - Quote
Was their any plan to give each race an EWAR Bship like the scorpion? The EWAR of the Caldari Bships (Scop) is pretty much instan pawned in fleet fights as its paper-thin and always primary-ed. Perhaps it would be better for each race to have a partial EWAR bship (but not be completely bonused toward only EWAR).
For example. give the mega or hyperion a mild sensor damp or warp scrambler bonus.
yk |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
301
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:32:00 -
[690] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Nah drone boats in large scale pvp sux! Other ships are much more better only because of 1 reason, u cannot move if u get sentries out. Do you have reading comprehension problems? Once again: you CAN move, if you chose to.
No u cant move! If u chose to move than u are a moron. Because u dont do dps or u are left without the drones if u move. Meanwhile the enemy fleet is pounding on you, even more if u stay still, and i ve seen better ehp boats than the domi too. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
269
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:35:00 -
[691] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:The Dominix is arguably the best solo tech 1 battleship for PVP at present. It is not a fleet-only boat.
I came VERY close to defeating a four-person gang solo in a Domi recently - an Astarte, an Oneiros, a Proteus and an Enyo. The Astarte engaged me as bait, and I had it in deep structure with me at 80% armor before the Oneiros reps landed. Even then I quickly had the logi neuted out and had the Astarte at low armor before popping.
Had the Oneiros landed 5 seconds later, I'd have popped the Astarte, caught the Proteus, forced the Enyo and Oneiros from the field and then popped the Proteus in a 140m Domi fit. As it was I only failed to escape because the Oneiros had an unusual (and smart for their gang) fit with a long point.
So yeah, the Domi is not just a fleet boat. You'll still be able to do this : you get more hp, more capacitor, and your drones will apply their dps better. Your gun dps loss is not that terrible.
As for the comparison with the Armageddon, indeed this one is better at pure neutralizing, but the mid slot is still of a very good value to the Dominix. |
Cebraio
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
284
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:35:00 -
[692] - Quote
I see you removed the suggested Megathron changes. May I ask politely that you do not remove a low slot for an additional mid slot? I mean, I'm fine with gaining a mid slot on the Mega, but I'd rather lose the utility high instead and don't lose a low slot. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
824
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:37:00 -
[693] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Was their any plan to give each race an EWAR Bship like the scorpion? The EWAR of the Caldari Bships (Scop) is pretty much instan pawned in fleet fights as its paper-thin and always primary-ed. Perhaps it would be better for each race to have a partial EWAR bship (but not be completely bonused toward only EWAR).
For example. give the mega or hyperion a mild sensor damp or warp scrambler bonus.
yk Eventually they said they might make new BS to add e-war BSes Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
283
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:39:00 -
[694] - Quote
Hyperion:
Personally I would have reduced the number of turrets to 6 and given it a 10% damage bonus + and extra heavy drone. Then moved a high to a low leaving a 7 - 5 - 7 layout. This would probably have fixed a large number of problems the Hyperion faces but that's just me.
Megathron:
I would have given this ship an extra turret and reduced drones to 50 M/Bit (5 Mediums). Then left the slot layout as is and reduced the mass of the ship and slightly lowered EHP (even though most people have said a big problem with BS's is that they aren't tough enough compared to CBC's). Attack ships should be ganky and agile. Also 8 turrets work well in fleet ops.
Dominix:
Not sure I like your changes. The new Armageddon essentially relegates the neut Domi to oblivion. I think the biggest problem with drone ships as fleet ships currently is how difficult it is to fit drone upgrades to your ship and how poor they can sometimes be. Also, the fact sentries can't return to drone bay and must be scooped is a big problem too. However you are addressing these issues by considering to allow sentry drones to return under their own propulsion. I think you may need to reconsider the Armageddon's neut range bonus in the other thread. It is extremely powerful and makes the Baalgorn look silly. I would prefer, if it is your intention, to give the geddon a tracking disruptor bonus whilst keeping it's new drone bonus and push it into the Disruption battleship (DBS) role but that is for the other thread. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:39:00 -
[695] - Quote
Change dominix drone damage bonus to 15% per level. All problems solved I think. And it keeps as THE DROEN Boat, cotnrary to the armageddon.. that stays with the pseudo drone boat role. |
Geraltd
Totalitarian Hydra Invention and Research Unit RED University
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:40:00 -
[696] - Quote
MukkBarovian wrote:You guys are complaining about a 50% optimal range and tracking bonus! WHATS WRONG WITH YOU? BECAUSE CONTROL RANGE != Optimal != Lock <= 60KM OMG!!! And when you will fit all the crap in all sloles for this little bastards you will look like this guy
|
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:41:00 -
[697] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: Because you don't .. that bonus is replacing the large gun bonus. It will become a very viable sentry sniper, especially since we recently got a low slot and rig option to boost drone damage .. going to be nasty as hell. Will be godly in brawls as well, since range+tracking allows you to use heavies to swat even frigs .. can almost do so now with an assortment of drone mods .. again, nasty as hell.
But it is destructible dps, so wouldn't slap the OP moniker on it just yet.
So Domi is no longer a great brawler (still Ok, but we will be laughed at for doing so with current bonus), Neut domi is dead and to boot lost the Gallente claim as the premiere drone boat race.
The Domi has gained: Freeing up mid-slots from OTLs we used to use for this role because.... we needed the midslots for tackle as a sniper... no wait. we needed the midslots for more shield tank as a sniper... hmm, that's not right.
Okok! We are super happy because we have traded all this so we can pay hundreds of millions on a BS to track and swat people who payed tens of millions to buy frigates! ...... |
Major Killz
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:41:00 -
[698] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:I see you removed the suggested Megathron changes. May I ask politely that you do not remove a low slot for an additional mid slot? I mean, I'm fine with gaining a mid slot on the Mega, but I'd rather lose the utility high instead and don't lose a low slot.
Could lose a turret for your trouble. Might as well have 6 BLASTERS v0v since CCP referenced the TEMPEST.
- killz |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:43:00 -
[699] - Quote
Gary Goat wrote:Interesting changes, I cant say I like them all.
Megathron: The good
I like the direction you're going with the megathron. Its faster and has more utility whilst retaining the blaster damage thanks to the rof bonus compensating for the loss of a low. The loss of a heavy drone hurts and seems a bit unnecessary. Also a bit more cap or cap regen would be nice to negate the increased cap use from the new bonus.
indeed although it needs much more of a agility and speed increase for a shield fit to be worth using and for an armour fit to have half decent speed.
Hyperion: The bad
The hyperion has always been a meh ship in my eyes. It was previously gimped by the limited low slots and its always been extremely cap hungry to the point that you need 2 cap injectors due to 8 turrets + at least 2 large reps to get the most from its bonuses. With the new changes you gain some tank at the expense of a mid slot that would have been used for extra tackle (to counter the bad tracking) or extra cap injector (to counter the stupendous cap usage). Different slot layout, same problems. The rep bonus just has too many negatives to make it feasible on a battleship that needs to feed 8 high slots.
a solution could be to move a high to a mid and remove a turret to give it a utility slot then if its dps is too low just increase its damage bonus to 10% or 7.5%
Dominix: The Ugly
The domi has always been a versatile boat and maybe the most versatile ship in the entire game. You never really knew how it was going to be fit until you engaged it which was its saving grace really, it also had great adaptability in the ever changing meta of eve online. The geddon has now taken away its role as a neuting drone boat (one of its best roles for small gangs) and the loss of the hybrid bonus has killed it in PVE and large fleets (although it was never very good in fleets anyway). The new domi looks like a bigger myrmidon without the tanking bonus which makes the myrmidon good. Maybe it should be the ship with that rep bonus instead of the hyp?
if its a sniper then it doesn't need or should get a rep bonus i think it should lose some turrets and a high for an extra low so it can armour tank properlyor an extra mid so it can use omnis and have shield tank.
'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Kyo Avanta
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:44:00 -
[700] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Change dominix drone damage bonus to 15% per level. All problems solved I think. And it keeps as THE DROEN Boat, cotnrary to the armageddon.. that stays with the pseudo drone boat role.
True, although CCP have gone with the idea what race's no longer need to have identities. Hence why the best hybrid platform battleship is Caldari and the best drone battleship is Amarr.
Gallente ships are still #1 in looks though! Of course you'll never actually see them flying around now... unless you've got a couple in your hanger. |
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Colt Blackhawk
Nasranite Watch The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
106
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:45:00 -
[701] - Quote
Only a little hint to CCP Rise: Concerning gallente ships the people are always whinig a lot. The outcome of that is that the Vexor is one of the most powerfull T1 cruisers now, the Algos is by far the best of the new dessies, and the new comet will also be omg. Seems it is like: The more people whine the more powerfull ships they get. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
250
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:46:00 -
[702] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Was their any plan to give each race an EWAR Bship like the scorpion? The EWAR of the Caldari Bships (Scop) is pretty much instan pawned in fleet fights as its paper-thin and always primary-ed. Perhaps it would be better for each race to have a partial EWAR bship (but not be completely bonused toward only EWAR).
For example. give the mega or hyperion a mild sensor damp or warp scrambler bonus.
yk like the scorpion? you rly want a ship that is poorly tanked , primaried and allthogeather crap?:O |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:47:00 -
[703] - Quote
Rise,
First of thanks for not only putting these changes out there for feedback but also taking the time to listen, it often feel like feedback posts pretty much fall on deaf ears.
Secondly can you / another team member give any indication about what future the Navy BS bonus' have?
personally i'm quite happy for standard hulls to move away from the split damage setups that we currently have, but these are also things that a lot of players are quire fond of, and as everyone know with the skills they can produce outstanding and fairly unique fits. I think it would be a real shame if these options were completely removed from the game.
as for the changes, i personally think the domi looks alright, the hybrid bonus was really only rarely used for brawler fits so it's not a great loss and the tracking and optimal will make sentry setups really effective. i think people and underestimating the benefit of this bonus.
i'll wait until i see what your revisions are before i say anything about the mega and hyp. |
Lenier Chenal
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:51:00 -
[704] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I must say, you guys do have a theatrical flair.
Look its 10pm and I'm trying to keep caught up on this, but I promise tomorrow we will go back through this Gal lineup and see if we can resolve some of the frustration.
I know I tried to lay out our intentions in the OP, but I want to lay it out again, just to make sure we're on the same page. I understand that many of you here aren't satisfied so we'll go back over it tomorrow and look at our options. In the mean time maybe this will help.
In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.
In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).
The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.
I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.
I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
The problem with they Hyperion is as follows:
1. Not enough powergrid to fit good guns and multiple reps.
2. Not enough slots to provide tackle/cap boosters with this iteration - and not enough lows for tanking or damage with the current iteration.
3. Slow, unless you burn out your cap that you need for repping.
4. Poor range.
5. Self repping doesn't work well on battleship sized ships.
Do you see anyone using the self repping bonus on the maelstrom? No, it was only used because of the alpha arties provided. You don't have the same bonus on the Hyperion. Railguns aren't useful on the Hyperion, unlike the Rokh. It's overshadowed by the mega with blasters.
I'm not sure what you are going to do, but anything you do to make the Hyperion useful would make it so overpowered with self repping that people will demand it be nerfed.
Self repping huge tanks should be the realm of specialized tech 2 and tech 3 ships.
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monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:51:00 -
[705] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Was their any plan to give each race an EWAR Bship like the scorpion? The EWAR of the Caldari Bships (Scop) is pretty much instan pawned in fleet fights as its paper-thin and always primary-ed. Perhaps it would be better for each race to have a partial EWAR bship (but not be completely bonused toward only EWAR).
For example. give the mega or hyperion a mild sensor damp or warp scrambler bonus.
yk like the scorpion? you rly want a ship that is poorly tanked , primaried and allthogeather crap?:O
i think i'd quite like to see a scram range bonus on the mega, presuming we're looking at this as the faster more agile BS. it seems that if you want it to be able to get in and brawl effectively the ability to stop everything running before you get there would be nice.
but then you'd have to look at dropping one of the other bonus' . in my mind the potential for a damp bonus would only really suit the domi to work alongside the concept of a sentry sniper. |
Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:51:00 -
[706] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:To anyone suggesting that the Hyperion should lose hi-slots or turret hardpoints: no. It can't be done, currently, because art assets constain them from doing that. The Hyperion very, very clearly has eight turret hardpoints on the base model. Unless the ship was actively remodelled at the same time as the stats change, they can't get rid of guns or hardpoints.
There are numerous ships with modeled hard points that you can't fill out. Heck the Raven has 8 and they are trimming one of the slots off. And last I checked you can undock with 7 guns on the Hyp with out the game crashing. |
Major Killz
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:54:00 -
[707] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Only a little hint to CCP Rise: Concerning gallente ships the people are always whinig a lot. The outcome of that is that the Vexor is one of the most powerfull T1 cruisers now, the Algos is by far the best of the new dessies, and the new comet will also be omg. Seems it is like: The more people whine the more powerfull ships they get.
That is nothing new. That is good CUSTOMER SERVICE.
- kilz |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:55:00 -
[708] - Quote
Gary Goat wrote:Dominix: The Ugly The domi has always been a versatile boat and maybe the most versatile ship in the entire game. You never really knew how it was going to be fit until you engaged it which was its saving grace really, it also had great adaptability in the ever changing meta of eve online. The geddon has now taken away its role as a neuting drone boat (one of its best roles for small gangs) and the loss of the hybrid bonus has killed it in PVE and large fleets (although it was never very good in fleets anyway). The new domi looks like a bigger myrmidon without the tanking bonus which makes the myrmidon good. Maybe it should be the ship with that rep bonus instead of the hyp? Yes I miss that versatility and I want it back badly. But there once was another, even more versatile Battleship. Typhoon was it's name, let it rest in peace. And Dominix is useless in large fleets? Dear god, dont make me start again! It was bad before they introduced drone damage amplifiers. Now it's fine. After this change it'd become ******* overpowered. And when they finally realize that - after 3 years of complaints, mind you - they'll stomp on it and nerf it to the ground. But, alas, all it's former roles would be busy with Geddons and other overlords. So it'd become just another useless peace of space potato. A bustard offspring of Federation. I'm mad. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
826
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:57:00 -
[709] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Gary Goat wrote:Dominix: The Ugly The domi has always been a versatile boat and maybe the most versatile ship in the entire game. You never really knew how it was going to be fit until you engaged it which was its saving grace really, it also had great adaptability in the ever changing meta of eve online. The geddon has now taken away its role as a neuting drone boat (one of its best roles for small gangs) and the loss of the hybrid bonus has killed it in PVE and large fleets (although it was never very good in fleets anyway). The new domi looks like a bigger myrmidon without the tanking bonus which makes the myrmidon good. Maybe it should be the ship with that rep bonus instead of the hyp? Yes I miss that versatility and I want it back badly. The versatility is not gone. Quit being narrow minded. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:01:00 -
[710] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The versatility is not gone. Quit being narrow minded. Common sense is clearly gone anyway, and unless everything a ship can do is not explicitely written on it, they won't see it.
Only thing people see is "OMG my ship is not the same as before and not obviously OP !! EVE IS DYING !!!"
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Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:01:00 -
[711] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:The Domi has gained: Freeing up mid-slots from OTLs we used to use for this role because.... we needed the midslots for tackle as a sniper... no wait. we needed the midslots for more shield tank as a sniper... hmm, that's not right. Try EWAR. I've heard it helps. |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Unclaimed.
217
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:02:00 -
[712] - Quote
After sleeping on it, must agree that the Dominix isn't really getting nerfed all that hard. Bigger issue seems to be that the Armageddon will be better at fulfilling most of the Dominix's traditional roles. The hybrid bonus loss isn't going to reduce the damage output by that much, since hybrids account for maybe 40% of a Dominix's real damage output, and in most use situations somewhat less, since some of the highs are dedicated to utility modules rather than guns.
I don't use either Megathrons or Hyperions, and so can't really comment on them in any great detail. But if the Hyperion's cap issues are so substantial, would it make sense to remove two of its gun turrets (and two high slots) while increasing its hull bonus to 7.5% damage per level or something?
On a somewhat relevant matter, I must point out that Gallente hybrid-based battleships are not widely used in null fleets because they don't offer anything special, and not because they are missing a resistance bonus. If resistance bonuses were the sole determinant of a battleship's usefulness in a large fleet, alpha Maelstroms, Navy Apocalypses, and Tempests would not be part of core alliance doctrines. None of them have a resistance bonus; the Maelstrom's local tank bonus is wholly unused in a large fleet.
Rather, Gallente hybrid battleships simply are not substantially better at anything useful in a fleet than any other ship. Maelstroms are the go-to for alpha; Navy Apocalypses have excellent damage projection; Tempests have two utility high slots and cap-less guns. Even though those ships lack a resistance bonus, they perform a specific role better than any other battleship.
The Hyperion and the Megathron, however, both compete with the Rokh and the Abaddon for the role of short-range dps brawler. But they're not much better at that role than either of those two ships. The Megathron may apply damage more easily due to its tracking bonus, but that bonus doesn't matter much when the target is webbed down by two or three Lokis. The blaster Rokh already deals absurd damage; the Abaddon offers somewhat better damage projection. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:05:00 -
[713] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:To anyone suggesting that the Hyperion should lose hi-slots or turret hardpoints: no. It can't be done, currently, because art assets constain them from doing that. The Hyperion very, very clearly has eight turret hardpoints on the base model. Unless the ship was actively remodelled at the same time as the stats change, they can't get rid of guns or hardpoints. This doesn't seem to be a valid argument. The mach has 8 art hardpoints and 7 turrets. The myrm has 6 art hardpoints and 5 turrets now. |
Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts. Casoff
171
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:06:00 -
[714] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why.
First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade.
And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important.
As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?
Dear CCP Rise,
2 things.
1) In your senario you seem to think anyone would bring a battleship in their small gang, I wonder why you's bring a ship that will slow your group down where an ABC can keep up with the rest of your ships. Why would we take the risk of making a Battleship jump through a gate, from which it can't escape. Yes you can scout though it will still slow you down.
Your combat battleships have an extra turret so that astouning base speed difference will be wel compensated by an extra large turret.
not to mention that with the Talos you're there twice as fast, with more damage, and less risk (also financialy)
2) How well will the Mega do 1vs1 against the Talos.
Well if you consider the training time is enough to fly both with perfect skills, don't consider the Isk diference, give it an escort to actualy get to the Arena wher it is to battle this Talos, then it's:
never going to catch it, by the time it has actualy locked on it, you'll already be scorched by the Talos with it's extra turret, or it be long gone.
What ever it's usefulness, it isn't going to work if you can't get it where you need it. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:07:00 -
[715] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The versatility is not gone. Quit being narrow minded. Narrow minded is not my name. Every time CCP cuts a feature, people say - hey, there is some more left, it's not that bad! Every freaking time! Now who is norrow-minded? |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:10:00 -
[716] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The versatility is not gone. Quit being narrow minded. Narrow minded is not my name. Every time CCP cuts a feature, people say - hey, there is some more left, it's not that bad! Every freaking time! Now who is norrow-minded?
providing they don't move the ndomi bonus' to be in line with the new domi then you will actually have more options.
and considering the current prices of navy BS i don't think they will be any less of an option than the standard version if you really want that extra versatility. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:11:00 -
[717] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote:The Domi has gained: Freeing up mid-slots from OTLs we used to use for this role because.... we needed the midslots for tackle as a sniper... no wait. we needed the midslots for more shield tank as a sniper... hmm, that's not right. Try EWAR. I've heard it helps.
Because when we are sniping with the new drone range bonus, EWAR modules will be in range too right? I must have missed that EWAR range bonus... |
Loki Vice
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:12:00 -
[718] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.
Not much to comment on the others? how about the fact that you have ruined the amarr battleship line up by wrecking the armageddon? |
Red Teufel
eHarmony Inc. Phobia.
219
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:16:00 -
[719] - Quote
after reviewing the domi changes i like em. I've flown the domi for years in pvp ect and if im still dealing 1500dps with max dps set-up of death i'm happy. added with the drone tracking bonus...yum :D
hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something.
mega..looks good to me. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:18:00 -
[720] - Quote
Red Teufel wrote:hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something. Yeah, turn the Hyperion into a minmatar ship, cool idea... |
|
Kyo Avanta
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:21:00 -
[721] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Red Teufel wrote:hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something. Yeah, turn the Hyperion into a minmatar ship, cool idea...
Yeah, its kind of like turning the Armageddon into a Gallente ship...... Oh wait. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2471
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:21:00 -
[722] - Quote
Guess the Domi and Mega changes are ok after all. Unnecessary, but whatever.
Hype doesn't work, but that would be easy to fix by actually finishing armor tanking 2.0
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:21:00 -
[723] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote:Dominix... Try EWAR. I've heard it helps. Because when we are sniping with the new drone range bonus, EWAR modules will be in range too right? I must have missed that EWAR range bonus... If you're at your sniping range, you dont need to worry of anything. Just watch your enemy burn. Or you can fit SeBo. You didnt need those mids anyway, right?
In fact I must admit that versatility is not completely gone. It reduced, and... shifted. From highs to mids. But my other point stands just right. Sentry drones are really strong now. And making a sentry-bonused ship means making overpowed ship. Which is bad. |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
602
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:27:00 -
[724] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
Could you be a bit less vague regarding what your intended changes are going to include. As it stands right now your initial proposal was less than stellar. So I'm basically looking to find out what you took from this thread exactly and what you are intending to correct. I'm not looking for slots and stats, just a goal and direction you intend to take.
|
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:27:00 -
[725] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input! I like the fact that you are looking to address our concerns. That said, it would be nice if you gave us an idea as to what you have in mind. We don't need hard numbers of X more PG, Y more DPS, but a general idea..
We can give you the feedback now so you can then use that to work with.. rather than you making a proposal, then us giving you feedback, then you making a new one. I think it would speed up the process, and leave everyone with a better end result.
That said, if the worst case is I need to wait 2 days to find out the new proposed changes, so be it. The fact that they are getting reviewed is a step in the right direction.. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
125
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:27:00 -
[726] - Quote
Sentry Dominix doesnt need any help, it's fine. Heavy-drones Dominix need some help desperately. Just put drone MWD bonus on it, and call it a day. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
267
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:28:00 -
[727] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******. Please start linking me fits people use, outside of gank setups, that effectively utilize the large gun bonus on the Dominix The new drone bonus is not only better for PVE+PVP, but you aren't losing the turret hardpoints. So you can have your cake and eat it too.
When flying a Battleship for the last 5 years or so, I have exclusively used a blaster Dominix setup, to great success. On small occasions I rock a neut Domi, but 9/10 it's blaster fit.
It's usually rocking:
Electron Blaster Cannon II x 5 Solace RR x1 (spidertank w/mah boys)
Microwarp, web, disruptor, cap booster, and a sebo/eccm/damp depending on its utilization
4x 1600 plates, 2x eanm, 1x dc
3x trimarks Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:29:00 -
[728] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Red Teufel wrote:hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something. Yeah, turn the Hyperion into a minmatar ship, cool idea... Well it's a blaster boat.. so give it optimal range.. Not as good as the Rokh, but every little bit helps with Blasters. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
191
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:30:00 -
[729] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******. Please start linking me fits people use, outside of gank setups, that effectively utilize the large gun bonus on the Dominix The new drone bonus is not only better for PVE+PVP, but you aren't losing the turret hardpoints. So you can have your cake and eat it too. When flying a Battleship for the last 5 years or so, I have exclusively used a blaster Dominix setup, to great success. On small occasions I rock a neut Domi, but 9/10 it's blaster fit. It's usually rocking: Electron Blaster Cannon II x 5 Solace RR x1 (spidertank w/mah boys) Microwarp, web, disruptor, cap booster, and a sebo/eccm/damp depending on its utilization 4x 1600 plates, 2x eanm, 1x dc 3x trimarks
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:31:00 -
[730] - Quote
Kyo Avanta wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Red Teufel wrote:hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something. Yeah, turn the Hyperion into a minmatar ship, cool idea... Yeah, its kind of like turning the Armageddon into a Gallente ship...... Oh wait.
or kind of makign the tempest into an amarr tanking brwler.. ..... Oh wait!!! |
|
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:32:00 -
[731] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote:Dominix... Try EWAR. I've heard it helps. Because when we are sniping with the new drone range bonus, EWAR modules will be in range too right? I must have missed that EWAR range bonus... If you're at your sniping range, you dont need to worry of anything. Just watch your enemy burn. Or you can fit SeBo. You didnt need those mids anyway, right? In fact I must admit that versatility is not completely gone. It reduced, and... shifted. From highs to mids. But my other point stands just right. Sentry drones are really strong now. And making a sentry-bonused ship means making overpowed ship. Which is bad.
It really depends on one's definition of versatile. To me, it means being able to fill different roles depending on the fit. This is where the idea of the unpredictable nature of the Domi came from.
Versatile to me does not mean being able to fit a SeBo at will (which is a good idea for a sniper by the way) as module switching is a standard among all Eve ships, and your opponent will still know exactly what role you are filling and what your strengths and weaknesses are.
The previously mentioned idea of allowing an increase in bandwidth per level, while perhaps radical, alleviates a lot of the concern people have with Gallente ships right now: racial identity, a niche role for the Domi, versatility (drones in themselves are a versatile weapon - damage types, utility drones, range variance) - and gives the Domi the defined role of capable droneboat that CCP is trying to accomplish. |
Sentamon
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:33:00 -
[732] - Quote
I'm digging the proposed Domi. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Red Teufel
eHarmony Inc. Phobia.
220
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:43:00 -
[733] - Quote
I approve domi changes I approve Mega changes
hyp i hate it. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
125
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:44:00 -
[734] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:I'm digging the proposed Domi. Looks like I did as well. But heavy drones are still inferior. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
541
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:44:00 -
[735] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******. Please start linking me fits people use, outside of gank setups, that effectively utilize the large gun bonus on the Dominix The new drone bonus is not only better for PVE+PVP, but you aren't losing the turret hardpoints. So you can have your cake and eat it too. When flying a Battleship for the last 5 years or so, I have exclusively used a blaster Dominix setup, to great success. On small occasions I rock a neut Domi, but 9/10 it's blaster fit. It's usually rocking: Electron Blaster Cannon II x 5 Solace RR x1 (spidertank w/mah boys) Microwarp, web, disruptor, cap booster, and a sebo/eccm/damp depending on its utilization 4x 1600 plates, 2x eanm, 1x dc 3x trimarks
So... you lost 100 turret dps for an additional 20k ehp on your setup, and better drone damage application. Why is this a bad thing again? -áwww.promsrage.com |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation The Nightingales of Hades
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:44:00 -
[736] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input! I really, really liked your first iteration of the Mega and Hype so I hope you're not mistaking "affectionate hysteria" with "possible gamebreaking"? Will be looking forward to see what you've come up with... And about the other threads you really should look at the scorpion and the Rokh and take a serious look at the attack battlecruisers again ;-)
This. They're pretty close to good, just a few minor tweaks and the 3 Gallente BS's should be pretty sweet. |
Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:50:00 -
[737] - Quote
I'm comfortable with the Domis changes. It can still field close to 1000 dps for my wspace shield fit and the change in bonuses make it a righteous sniper that can rep its sentries. I use a navy mega for a deep tank and probably won't use t1mega ever. But I really don't think it needed to be nerfed, based purely on how often it is used. But the Hyperion...
Active tanking is a problem. It's great if solo camping or missioning, but put that ship in a fleet and it looses its versatility. Yeah, if remote cap reps are on field, it simply needs less armor remote reps from logi, but most pilots would rather have a deep tank to protect against alpha volleys. 1800 hp/10 seconds doesn't protect against that. CCP keeps saying that active tanking will find its place - eventually - how many years are going to by in the process?
I've moved from missioning to wspace. I no longer need self repping. I'm native gallente, so I'm expected to brawl - I'm also expected to have a buffer tank so the logi can keep me alive. Active repping is just fail. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:50:00 -
[738] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. (Yes, at this point I'm abit angry and that is going to be shown in my choice of words and phraseology) Of course, your keeping an eye on the other threads, and the amarr one is what, so blase you can't be bothered to post any responses to it? Despite that several of us have now specifically directed questions and such directly to you, asking for more elaboration on one thing or another, or even just what you might think about what we have to say? |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:52:00 -
[739] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Red Teufel wrote:hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something. Yeah, turn the Hyperion into a minmatar ship, cool idea... Well it's a blaster boat.. so give it optimal range.. Not as good as the Rokh, but every little bit helps with Blasters.
Blasters are falloff weapons just like ACs, that's why all all the ranged bonused hybrid ammo is so **** for blasters. Aside from Null none of them give a falloff bonus, only optimal. |
The Bazzalisk
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:52:00 -
[740] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:To anyone suggesting that the Hyperion should lose hi-slots or turret hardpoints: no. It can't be done, currently, because art assets constain them from doing that. The Hyperion very, very clearly has eight turret hardpoints on the base model. Unless the ship was actively remodelled at the same time as the stats change, they can't get rid of guns or hardpoints.
The Myrmidon has 6 turret hardpoints on the model but they had no problem changing the fittings to 5. |
|
Vivien Sureflight
Repo.
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:53:00 -
[741] - Quote
I really dislike what you're proposing for the Dominix. Its strength is in its versatility, and part of that versatility comes from being able to use blasters for more than just the laughs. As is, the Dominix occupies some of the highest potential DPS in the game, while also maintaining the ability to be fit in a variety of ways. I would much rather it stay the same than be turned into a tougher, slower, uglier Ishtar.
It's been previously stated that CCP wants to keep the T1 ships more "open" as far as roles are concerned, and leave the specialization to T2 ships. With that in mind, does it make sense to forcibly push a useful and versatile ship into the role of pure combat utility/sniping? If you want to snipe with sentries, Ishtars already do it better -- all this change is doing is making it a weaker ship in small encounters with the ability to hit some frigates with heavy drones. Who cares? That just means the ship takes less skill to fly. And I don't mean skill points; it would turn into, "apply tackle. Drop ogres. Sit there". That's already the role of the Hyperion, so I don't see a need to fill it again.
BOTTOM LINE: Leave the Domi completely untouched, unless you want to give it some more HP to bring it in line with the others.
|
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:55:00 -
[742] - Quote
Pelea Ming wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. (Yes, at this point I'm abit angry and that is going to be shown in my choice of words and phraseology) Of course, your keeping an eye on the other threads, and the amarr one is what, so blase you can't be bothered to post any responses to it? Despite that several of us have now specifically directed questions and such directly to you, asking for more elaboration on one thing or another, or even just what you might think about what we have to say?
as much as i'm sure he'd love to just sit here and debate the merits of changes and suggestions all day i'm fairly sure his job is slightly more involved that just trawling the forums all day.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2472
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:55:00 -
[743] - Quote
Why do people keep mentioning battleship sniping like it was actually something you can do in this game
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:56:00 -
[744] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Red Teufel wrote:hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something. Yeah, turn the Hyperion into a minmatar ship, cool idea... Well it's a blaster boat.. so give it optimal range.. Not as good as the Rokh, but every little bit helps with Blasters. Oh yeah, make it worse than the Rokh !
So many great ideas around there !
To me, gallente always have been pure firepower with high utility. Pure firepower mean blasters. High utility mean armor tank with fair amount of mid slots.
Unfortunately, people don't like this idea and prefer Amarr or Caldari ships. The problem with gallente ships is that they are not straightforward compared to amarr or caldari ships. With amarr/caldari ship, you know what your ship can do, it's clear, and that translate directly into eft stats. With gallente ships, that's not the case. Gallente ships share a lot more with minmatar ships than with amarr and caldari ones. Yet, the problem is less apparent with minmatar ships, because of arties in one hand, which make huge fleet afficionados happy, and speed/cap warfare/shield preference on the other hand which make small gang people happy.
Gallente are left with a weapon system shared with caldari (they are pretty fine with drones though, and the mild acceptance of the Dominix show it), and to top it off, the weapon system don't distinguish a lot from amarr weapon system. Hence, whatever you do, people will try to compare them to amarr or caldari ships, and because they understand amarr and caldari doctrine better, they will compare them in these doctrines point of view : static huge fleet fights. But this is a dead end. Gallente ships will forever be worse than caldari and amarr ship at being amarr or caldari ships.
And the last problem then arise : lots of people don't believe in battleship at small scale, hence completely reprove armor rep bonus for this ship. And for those people left, there is the competition with minmatar ships (and of course with amarr/caldari ships which can be used in small scale situation).
Hence, the competition is high, and the niche left are small. And IMO, the proposed changes were fairly good, but maybe too drastic to be accepted. The margin for modification is not that large : you need 7 or 8 highs for weapons, you need 6 or 7 lows for armor tank, and you need 4 or 5 mids for enough utility -- but considering the number of 4 mid slots BS, I think 5 is preferable. You also need those two hull to be different, one filling an attack role, and the other one a combat role (but still without turing it into a caldari/amarr ship).
That is the whole picture. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:56:00 -
[745] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:Pelea Ming wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. (Yes, at this point I'm abit angry and that is going to be shown in my choice of words and phraseology) Of course, your keeping an eye on the other threads, and the amarr one is what, so blase you can't be bothered to post any responses to it? Despite that several of us have now specifically directed questions and such directly to you, asking for more elaboration on one thing or another, or even just what you might think about what we have to say? as much as i'm sure he'd love to just sit here and debate the merits of changes and suggestions all day i'm fairly sure his job is slightly more involved that just trawling the forums all day. Ahh, yes, yet he had the time yesterday to post approx 3 times to both the Cald and Minnie threads, and approx 15 times to the Gallente one, yet has shown no attention to the amarr thread? |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:57:00 -
[746] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote: This. They're pretty close to good, just a few minor tweaks and the 3 Gallente BS's should be pretty sweet.
Good for what? Fleet fights? Atm gallent have no fleet BS. In massive pvp sentry domi bad, because of smarts and bombs. If slowcat have extrimely sets of sentry domi have only 3. And all gallent problem in their weapon. They NEED speed OR optimal\falloff to deal damage. Gallent's BS havnt both of this attributes. Problem not in slots (but 6 low for mega pretty odd).
CCP need to decide what BS will fleet ship and just give falloff or optimal bonus (optimal is better because caldari have their rail-platform with falloff) to mega or hyper instead of tracking bonus on mega or rep bonus on hyper. Mega need tracking bonus in small-scale pvp where u need tracking to get down crus-size. But in fleet pvp? For what tracking if im shooting other BS. About hyper... Well armor rep bonus totaly bad in fleet pvp and we all know why.
There is 3-rd option. Make drones be useful in fleet pvp (drones need some countermeasure for hard aoe attack). But its another thread. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
267
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 14:58:00 -
[747] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******. Please start linking me fits people use, outside of gank setups, that effectively utilize the large gun bonus on the Dominix The new drone bonus is not only better for PVE+PVP, but you aren't losing the turret hardpoints. So you can have your cake and eat it too. When flying a Battleship for the last 5 years or so, I have exclusively used a blaster Dominix setup, to great success. On small occasions I rock a neut Domi, but 9/10 it's blaster fit. It's usually rocking: Electron Blaster Cannon II x 5 Solace RR x1 (spidertank w/mah boys) Microwarp, web, disruptor, cap booster, and a sebo/eccm/damp depending on its utilization 4x 1600 plates, 2x eanm, 1x dc 3x trimarks So... you lost 100 turret dps for an additional 20k ehp on your setup, and better drone damage application. Why is this a bad thing again?
Because that extra turret DPS gives it the unique flair that would make a player possibly pick it over the Armageddon.
If CCP is doing this tiericide project for the reasons they claim (making every ship a viable choice) they will fail with the Dominix.
As I've been saying, the bonus change is a problem, but not as much as the Armageddon being the new top dog drone boat. It's like being presented with a choice between Myrm and Proph, but at least there the Myrm has more bandwidth... Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:00:00 -
[748] - Quote
doublepost. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:02:00 -
[749] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:So... you lost 100 turret dps for an additional 20k ehp on your setup, and better drone damage application. Why is this a bad thing again?
Because that extra turret DPS gives it the unique flair that would make a player possibly pick it over the Armageddon.
If CCP is doing this tiericide project for the reasons they claim (making every ship a viable choice) they will fail with the Dominix.
As I've been saying, the bonus change is a problem, but not as much as the Armageddon being the new top dog drone boat. It's like being presented with a choice between Myrm and Proph, but at least there the Myrm has more bandwidth...[/quote] The ******* mid slot !! The Dominix still have one more fuckin' mid slot ! As does the Myrm over the Prophecy BTW... But the thing with the Prophecy is more related to the insane-and-probably-OP tank more than anything else. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1239
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:05:00 -
[750] - Quote
After sleeping on it: 1. Hey how about giving the Mega it's 8th high slot so that it can be the fleet ship we all want? 2. CCP is just screwed with the active repping Hyperion. So, do what you want with it. Give the 8th turret slot to the Mega, and keep this ship in its tiny little niche of "I active rep until I get nueted out or blobbed" so that legion boosting, drug addicts can have fun while playing station games. 3. Nerf the proposed Armageddon so it doesn't completely overlap the Dominix in 95% of realistic pvp scenarios. Otherwise it's fine. |
|
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:05:00 -
[751] - Quote
Vivien Sureflight wrote:I really dislike what you're proposing for the Dominix. Its strength is in its versatility, and part of that versatility comes from being able to use blasters for more than just the laughs. As is, the Dominix occupies some of the highest potential DPS in the game, while also maintaining the ability to be fit in a variety of ways. I would much rather it stay the same than be turned into a tougher, slower, uglier Ishtar.
Something people need to be clear on from CCP Rise's post earlier in this thread:
"It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones."
This is a clearcut nerf to Domi's dps, and I agree it needed to be done seeing some of the fits. People who are saying this is a boost to the Domi did not read this thread fully.
I don't understand why people find it exciting that Domi will have the tracking to zap smaller ships now. It was always fine at hitting ships it's own size and could deploy smaller drones (at a dps loss) to chase around really annoying smaller ships.
Do you really get excited about killboards that show a BS taking out a frig?
I also don't understand why people would want to use a bigger, tankier ship solely as a sniper when tier 3 BCs will fill this role just as well but with more mobility.
I may be missing something here so I am open to hearing more.
|
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:08:00 -
[752] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:So... you lost 100 turret dps for an additional 20k ehp on your setup, and better drone damage application. Why is this a bad thing again? Because that extra turret DPS gives it the unique flair that would make a player possibly pick it over the Armageddon. If CCP is doing this tiericide project for the reasons they claim (making every ship a viable choice) they will fail with the Dominix. As I've been saying, the bonus change is a problem, but not as much as the Armageddon being the new top dog drone boat. It's like being presented with a choice between Myrm and Proph, but at least there the Myrm has more bandwidth... The ******* mid slot !! The Dominix still have one more fuckin' mid slot ! As does the Myrm over the Prophecy BTW... But the thing with the Prophecy is more related to the insane-and-probably-OP tank more than anything else.[/quote]
Overhaul the megathron and the Hyperion. They need to make it viable and possible for the Hyperion to be a blaster boat. The mega... Only god knows.... |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:09:00 -
[753] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?
As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.
Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it.
Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced.
There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:15:00 -
[754] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced.
There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap.
Oh dear ! The holy cap stability !
But how many time will it take to your ennemies to bring back up ? Because whatever the time you can run your repper, your lifespan is limited to the time cavalry arrive. |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:16:00 -
[755] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:After sleeping on it: 1. Hey how about giving the Mega it's 8th turret slot so that it can be the fleet ship we all want?[ 2. CCP is just screwed with the active repping Hyperion. So, do what you want with it. Give the 8th turret slot to the Mega, and keep this ship in its tiny little niche of "I active rep until I get nueted out or blobbed" so that legion boosting, drug addicts can have fun while playing station games.
Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range? |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation The Nightingales of Hades
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:17:00 -
[756] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote: I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?
As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.
Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it.
Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced. There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap.
Single Heavy Cap Booster 2 is saying 4mins for me before heat etc. Seems pretty standard amount of cap to me. And that assuming you need to run both reppers full time... |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:18:00 -
[757] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range? Please, look at minmatar, caldari or amarr line up if you want godlike damage projection. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
451
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:19:00 -
[758] - Quote
People asking for 7 turret hyperions and 8 turret megathrons....
Round pegs in square holes indeed. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:27:00 -
[759] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range? Please, look at minmatar, caldari or amarr line up if you want godlike damage projection. And ill ask again. What fleet format could form gallent's BS (useful format)? Could you answer? :) Its not a balance that gallent's BS is for small\solo scale pvp only. |
Lina Theist
War Veteran Pension
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:28:00 -
[760] - Quote
Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now. |
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
270
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:32:00 -
[761] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:And ill ask again. What fleet format could form gallent's BS (useful format)? Could you answer? :) Its not a balance that gallent's BS is for small\solo scale pvp only. There is already sentry drones doctrines.
For blasters and railguns, it's a bit more complicated, and that may not fit in the current meta, but is it a reason to turn gallente ships into amarr, caldari or minmatar ones ? Besides, the 8/4/7 Hyperion would have been fine following an amarr doctrine.
But as I said, gallente relly on high utility, which mean mid slots with EWAR. |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:34:00 -
[762] - Quote
Lina Theist wrote:Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now. Posting this again because drones:
Remove 10% damage/HP per level Add +1 drone/+25mbit per level.
Make the domi a real drone boat. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
84
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:35:00 -
[763] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Lina Theist wrote:Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now. Posting this again because drones: Remove 10% damage/HP per level Add +1 drone/+25mbit per level. Make the domi a real drone boat.
Dominix used to give more than 5 drones at spaec in the past. But that was changed because it strained the server too much. I dobut they will make any ship ever again be able to deploy more drones ( carriers not withstanding) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1239
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:35:00 -
[764] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:X Gallentius wrote:After sleeping on it: 1. Hey how about giving the Mega it's 8th turret slot so that it can be the fleet ship we all want?[ 2. CCP is just screwed with the active repping Hyperion. So, do what you want with it. Give the 8th turret slot to the Mega, and keep this ship in its tiny little niche of "I active rep until I get nueted out or blobbed" so that legion boosting, drug addicts can have fun while playing station games.
Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range? Rails are for fleets. Mega has tracking bonus.
|
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:39:00 -
[765] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Cambarus wrote:Lina Theist wrote:Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now. Posting this again because drones: Remove 10% damage/HP per level Add +1 drone/+25mbit per level. Make the domi a real drone boat. Dominix used to give more than 5 drones at spaec in the past. But that was changed because it strained the server too much. I dobut they will make any ship ever again be able to deploy more drones ( carriers not withstanding) I was under the impression that drones are treated as a single entity when focused on a single target now, so this really shouldn't be an issue, especially since you can turn drone models off. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:40:00 -
[766] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Cambarus wrote:Lina Theist wrote:Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now. Posting this again because drones: Remove 10% damage/HP per level Add +1 drone/+25mbit per level. Make the domi a real drone boat. Dominix used to give more than 5 drones at spaec in the past. But that was changed because it strained the server too much. I dobut they will make any ship ever again be able to deploy more drones ( carriers not withstanding)
That was almost 10 years ago. Technology has more than compensated in the mean time. Maybe time to revisit? Also I think retaining the hp bonus/level would be needed. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
564
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:40:00 -
[767] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range? Please, look at minmatar, caldari or amarr line up if you want godlike damage projection. And ill ask again. What fleet format could form gallent's BS (useful format)? Could you answer? :) Its not a balance that gallent's BS is for small\solo scale pvp only. New Dominix reaches (optimal km/falloff km): Warden: 112.5/30 Bouncer: 90/42 Curator: 78/24 Garde: 45/12 And that is without any modules fitted whatsoever.
Now, they have pulled the Mega again, but I bet that when it comes again it will be with the same core concept of being able to shield or armour making even blaster range ridiculous (TE nerf not that hard). With a couple of TE's and a rig or two it should easily be able to cover the medium range. Otherwise there is the once mighty rail Mega, the one that existed before tier3 BS were introed and transformed all fleets into Abaddon blobs Combine with the MJD and the insta-hit probes (YMMV) and range becomes much less of an issue than the ability to operate at full power close in while still covering that 100km sphere .. all races are getting that ability as a lot of copy/paste seems to have snuck into the dev process
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:41:00 -
[768] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Cambarus wrote:Lina Theist wrote:Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now. Posting this again because drones: Remove 10% damage/HP per level Add +1 drone/+25mbit per level. Make the domi a real drone boat. Dominix used to give more than 5 drones at spaec in the past. But that was changed because it strained the server too much. I dobut they will make any ship ever again be able to deploy more drones ( carriers not withstanding) I was under the impression that drones are treated as a single entity when focused on a single target now, so this really shouldn't be an issue, especially since you can turn drone models off.
its a SERVER side issue, not client. And when they changed that the sever performance changed a LOT. |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:41:00 -
[769] - Quote
Dominix changes are fantastic. Please give me 0.9 tracking gardes at 70k. Drones might actually be viable in a fleet after this.
Hyperion and Mega?
+1 Low for the hype because it's **** .Or, loose the active rep bonus and give it to the mega and remove a mid for a low +7.5% tracking.
+1 mid for the mega -1 high ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
74
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:43:00 -
[770] - Quote
Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please. |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:43:00 -
[771] - Quote
At least in this thread SOME people liked the changes. On minmatar thread basically no one liked them and the first adjustments are here. Go figure.
But good luck to the megatron and dominix and hyperion lovers, hope you guys can get decent ships... even if not all races can. |
Slumberg
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:46:00 -
[772] - Quote
Please leave the megathron alone, and bonus the hyperion in a way that makes them a viable fleet doctrine. Anything but the local rep bonus. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
451
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:47:00 -
[773] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please. Pretty much Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2429
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:55:00 -
[774] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:New Dominix reaches (optimal km/falloff km): Warden: 112.5/30 Bouncer: 90/42 Curator: 78/24 Garde: 45/12 And that is without any modules fitted whatsoever. Listen, I know they only let you fly Amarr ships in PIE so you may not be aware of this, but even if a sentry drone has the optimal to reach that far, it can't fire outside your drone control radius. Since the Dominix gets no bonus to drone control range, the effective range of any sentry drone is hard-capped in the ~60km area unless you fit a control range module. Mane 614
|
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
111
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:03:00 -
[775] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Cambarus wrote:Lina Theist wrote:Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now. Posting this again because drones: Remove 10% damage/HP per level Add +1 drone/+25mbit per level. Make the domi a real drone boat. Dominix used to give more than 5 drones at spaec in the past. But that was changed because it strained the server too much. I dobut they will make any ship ever again be able to deploy more drones ( carriers not withstanding) Wasn't this changed in the Red Moon Rising expansion of 2005? Are you meaning to say that in 8 years (of technology time), there haven't been any improvements that would allow a single ship to be able to field 10 drones? How does the server cope with slowcats, then? Having the Domi (vs all the ships fielding 10) surely isn't going to impact the server so significantly with the same problems experienced EIGHT years ago. Is CCP still running Pentium processors?
|
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:03:00 -
[776] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: Rails are for fleets. Mega has tracking bonus.
And there is always amarr with beams that more effective. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
111
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:09:00 -
[777] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please. So well said that I am at a loss for words. Well done, sir.
|
Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:20:00 -
[778] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please.
This is so well said. Pretty much nailed the failed Gallente doctrine. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1239
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:23:00 -
[779] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Rails are for fleets. Mega has tracking bonus.
And there is always amarr with beams that more effective. Rate of Fire bonus and in return remove a couple drones. In the end, the Gallente BS hull should be applying more dps at any given range because the Gallente tanks (EHP, sig radius, you name it) suck donkey balls. That would give them their defining feature that people could use in fleets. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:23:00 -
[780] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
5% rof bonus + 1 mag stab = 5% dmg bonus + 2 mag stab Now u have 1 more mid slot for or web or the track comp, which means that 5% rof + 1 mag stab dps better applied than the old fit. And on top of that u get the same tank, better cap, speed and agility. Stop whining. Incorrect, and if you'd paid a bit more attention to the thread, rather than insulting everyone (including people who have 7 years more experience than you... ) then you'd know this is incorrect:
7*1.25*1.47 = 12.9 turrets (current, with two mag stabs) 7/0.75*1.23 = 11.5 turrets (proposed, with RoF bonus and one mag stab)
On top of this it loses a heavy drone, with Ogre II's thats another -63 DPS.
The solution, is simple; increase ROF bonus to 7.5% assuming it's still losing a heavy drone. You could of course keep it the same by removing a low slot and giving it a 10% damage bonus without changing the drone bandwidth:
7*1.5*1.23 = 12.9
Looking forward to what these new discussions (that Rise eluded to earlier) lead to.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
|
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2431
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:25:00 -
[781] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please. Have my babies please. Mane 614
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
451
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:29:00 -
[782] - Quote
I think the solution with the Domi lies in one of two ways.
What's the current Dominixs problem? Just out classed by the new Geddon, and lumped with a bunch of bonuses that don't quite work together...
Low number of high slots means is less likely to synergise it's drone specialism with drone control range augmentation. Not that sniper sentry drones work well with most fleets, can't be easily countered by smart//bombs or that the dominix has any new values to compensate for the rather stationary nature of it's deployment (ie, higher than average hp) or vunriblity of it's new focused dps source (increased drone bay)
We all feel these things, some of us on a gut level, hence the dissatisfaction.
But compared to the Hyperion and Megathron, it's an easy enough solution to attempt to solve.
Make the Dominix have the standard number of slots most battleships enjoy with either...
7/5/7 Slot layout increasing the number of drone control augmentation units it can potentially carry (with a modest CPU boost)
Or 6/6/7 Slot layout restoring utility lost by the DPS switch whilst indirecting improving (armour and/or shield) tanking ability or drone performance into a more synergistic unit.
I've seen New dual neut, heavy torp/drone geddons pushing over 1k dps - as things stand that will almost certainly be by go to drone dps machine. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
438
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:29:00 -
[783] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
We'll see.
Hopefully Gallente ships won't still regarded as the bastard stepchild of EVE. "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
451
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:30:00 -
[784] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
5% rof bonus + 1 mag stab = 5% dmg bonus + 2 mag stab Now u have 1 more mid slot for or web or the track comp, which means that 5% rof + 1 mag stab dps better applied than the old fit. And on top of that u get the same tank, better cap, speed and agility. Stop whining. Incorrect, and if you'd paid a bit more attention to the thread, rather than insulting everyone (including people who have 7 years more experience than you... ) then you'd know this is incorrect: 7*1.25*1.47 = 12.9 turrets (current, with two mag stabs) 7/0.75*1.23 = 11.5 turrets (proposed, with RoF bonus and one mag stab) On top of this it loses a heavy drone, with Ogre II's thats another -63 DPS. The solution, is simple; increase ROF bonus to 7.5% assuming it's still losing a heavy drone. You could of course keep it the same by removing a low slot and giving it a 10% damage bonus without changing the drone bandwidth: 7*1.5*1.23 = 12.9 Looking forward to what these new discussions (that Rise eluded to earlier) lead to. Didn't it also lose all it's missile hardpoints? Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:31:00 -
[785] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please.
That is an interesting new idea!
|
Berial Inglebard
Toxic Waste Industries Sadistica Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:31:00 -
[786] - Quote
Edit: turned into reply to Rise |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2431
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:34:00 -
[787] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Didn't it also lose all it's missile hardpoints? I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Mane 614
|
Berial Inglebard
Toxic Waste Industries Sadistica Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:34:00 -
[788] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
CCP Rise: It seems that most people want the Hyperion to have a place in large fleet doctrine like all the other Teir 3 battleships do. The mael has massive alpha, the abaddon massive buffer, and the rokh a solid mix of buffer and optimal. So where can the Hyperion fit in? Make the 7.5% repair bonus effective for both local AND RECIEVED remote armor reps. How does this balance out? The new Hyperion would be thinner than the abaddon and rokh (no resistance bonus to compliment EHP buffer, armor tank lows shared with damage mods), thus making it easier to alpha off the field. However, when remote armor reps start landing, the thing is a beast, turning 3 logistic pilots into 4 effectively (at Gal BS5) and becoming the most difficult Teir 3 battleship to beat while being repaired. This is the niche the Hyperion can and should fill. Thin, but incredibly resilient with the assistance of logistics. |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
438
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:35:00 -
[789] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Vivien Sureflight wrote:I really dislike what you're proposing for the Dominix. Its strength is in its versatility, and part of that versatility comes from being able to use blasters for more than just the laughs. As is, the Dominix occupies some of the highest potential DPS in the game, while also maintaining the ability to be fit in a variety of ways. I would much rather it stay the same than be turned into a tougher, slower, uglier Ishtar.
Something people need to be clear on from CCP Rise's post earlier in this thread: "It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones." This is a clearcut nerf to Domi's dps. I'd be ok with a nerf provided the proposed alternative was appealing. People who are saying this is a boost to the Domi did not read this thread fully. I don't understand why people find it exciting that Domi will have the tracking to zap smaller ships now. It was always fine at hitting ships it's own size and could deploy smaller drones (at a dps loss) to chase around really annoying smaller ships. Do people really get excited about killboards that show a BS taking out a frig? I also don't understand why people would want to use a bigger, tankier ship solely as a sniper when tier 3 BCs will fill this role just as well but with more mobility. I may be missing something here so I am open to hearing more.
But this is CCP we're talking about here.
Gallente ships are generally the worst ships in game. So what do we do with the best Drone boat in class? Nerf it and make the Amarr drone boat better.
That's great logic right there.
"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB |
Collin Dow
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:38:00 -
[790] - Quote
Please don't **** my megathron. It has only been good again for a little while, and you guys are already trying to kill it again. :smith: The Gallente shall rise again! The Glorious Revolution lives on in my heart. |
|
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2432
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:38:00 -
[791] - Quote
I don't see the obsession with keeping a uniform number of absolute slots, either. As long as ships do not vary massively in power and utility, it doesn't matter if they have a few more or few less slots. Mane 614
|
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:38:00 -
[792] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Can someone point to the Gal ship that's useful in fleets?
With these changes there's even less chance of megas been welcomed alongside abaddons. A mega without 2 maga stabs is useless. To do that now you have to use 1 plate, which seems to give it an even worse tank then it currently has.
5% rof bonus + 1 mag stab = 5% dmg bonus + 2 mag stab Now u have 1 more mid slot for or web or the track comp, which means that 5% rof + 1 mag stab dps better applied than the old fit. And on top of that u get the same tank, better cap, speed and agility. Stop whining. Incorrect, and if you'd paid a bit more attention to the thread, rather than insulting everyone (including people who have 7 years more experience than you... ) then you'd know this is incorrect: 7*1.25*1.47 = 12.9 turrets (current, with two mag stabs) 7/0.75*1.23 = 11.5 turrets (proposed, with RoF bonus and one mag stab) On top of this it loses a heavy drone, with Ogre II's thats another -63 DPS. The solution, is simple; increase ROF bonus to 7.5% assuming it's still losing a heavy drone. You could of course keep it the same by removing a low slot and giving it a 10% damage bonus without changing the drone bandwidth: 7*1.5*1.23 = 12.9 Looking forward to what these new discussions (that Rise eluded to earlier) lead to. Didn't it also lose all it's missile hardpoints? Indeed, which, even though I personally have never used them on a blaster fit (have stuck a cruise launcher on a rail fit before) its still not cool - I was kind of hoping that when Battleship missiles get looked at there'd be some incentive and genuine choice for utility high slot fitting.
Though I am a bit more positive about the whole situation now the OP has been changed...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Collin Dow
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:40:00 -
[793] - Quote
Berial Inglebard wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input! CCP Rise: It seems that most people want the Hyperion to have a place in large fleet doctrine like all the other Teir 3 battleships do. The mael has massive alpha, the abaddon massive buffer, and the rokh a solid mix of buffer and optimal. So where can the Hyperion fit in? Make the 7.5% repair bonus effective for both local AND RECEIVED remote armor reps. How does this balance out? The new Hyperion would be thinner than the abaddon and rokh (no resistance bonus to compliment EHP buffer, armor tank lows shared with damage mods), thus making it easier to alpha off the field. However, when remote armor reps start landing, the thing is a beast, turning 3 logistic pilots into 4 effectively (at Gal BS5) and becoming the most difficult Teir 3 battleship to beat while being repaired. This is the niche the Hyperion can and should fill. Thin, but incredibly resilient with the assistance of logistics.
This. This would be good for the hyp. The Gallente shall rise again! The Glorious Revolution lives on in my heart. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:44:00 -
[794] - Quote
Rep received is a bad idea. It is effectively only half of the resist bonus. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:47:00 -
[795] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Navy Domi is still there, and it's hard to argue with the Vindicator and Bhaalorn. Besides, there's a ton of rage and I'm sure that CCP will come to the table ready to play ball tomorrow. :)
-Liang
Pattern Clarc wrote: I'm certain this is part of CCP's bargining ploy and they'll be bringing out the REAL gallente changes tomorrow... And because these have all been so terrible, we'll be thanking our lucky stars when we've been brought to parity with Amitar.
CCP Rise wrote:Hi again Gallente friends!
We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.
Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.
Thanks again for the input!
Nerf crystal balls tbhGǪ
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
22
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:49:00 -
[796] - Quote
They removed the changes to the megathron and the hyperion, but left the changes for the Dominix that the people who use it for missions were complaining about..... |
The Bazzalisk
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:50:00 -
[797] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need. I hate to break it to you but a 50% rate of fire bonus does not mean you are shooting twice as fast, you will be shooting 1.5x as fast. So you saying that a rate of fire bonus is superior to a damage bonus is incorrect because rate of fire bonus will suck more cap. If your rate of fire is 10 and you reduce that by 50% what does that become?? A rate of fire of 5 Oh yes, the math is correct but it is also poorly named. A duration decrease of 50% is the same as a 100% damage increase.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1241
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:55:00 -
[798] - Quote
Berial Inglebard wrote: CCP Rise: It seems that most people want the Hyperion to have a place in large fleet doctrine like all the other Teir 3 battleships do.
I think most people want a good rail ship for fleets, a good blaster brawler, and a good drone boat. How they partition these roles is up to CCP, but it seems to me that the bonuses for the Megathron fit better for fleets than the bonus for the Hyperion. Could be wrong if they decide to give the Hyperion a remote repping bonus (which would be great, but it seems this sort of bonus has been a non-starter forever).
|
Veli ANDAC
Federal Navy Special Forces
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:58:00 -
[799] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:The Mega & Dominix looks fine to me, but the Hyperion looks like garbage. It can't dual rep anymore because you need to drop a web or propulsion, both of which are non-options since it doesn't have a range or tracking bonus.
My recommendation would be to drop a high slot, increase the damage bonus to compensate, and give it back its 5th mid.
I agree. First of all Hyperion needs second cap booster to stay cap stable in active armor tanking. Plus, any large turret battle ship without any tracking bonus needs a web on mid slot for apply dps on targets. In the end I can say if you move 5. mid slot, you will corrupt active armor tanking doctrine on Hyperion. And this will be a fail modification. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:00:00 -
[800] - Quote
luredivino wrote:They removed the changes to the megathron and the hyperion, but left the changes for the Dominix that the people who use it for missions were complaining about.....
Once you get out of the newbie tutorial zone those domi changes help amazingly in null sec! |
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1241
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:02:00 -
[801] - Quote
Veli ANDAC wrote:stay cap stable in active armor tanking. You could fit it with an afterburner instead of a mwd.... LOL, I'm killing myself here.
Also, make sure Hyperion has enough powergrid to fit larger guns to make up for loss in dps (and/or add a large drone).
|
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:04:00 -
[802] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:luredivino wrote:They removed the changes to the megathron and the hyperion, but left the changes for the Dominix that the people who use it for missions were complaining about..... Once you get out of the newbie tutorial zone those domi changes help amazingly in null sec!
I am really struggling to see how. Drones never had an issue hitting in the first place. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1241
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:06:00 -
[803] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:I am really struggling to see how. Drones never had an issue hitting in the first place. Higher dps sentries will be able to hit at engagement ranges associated with BS fights in null sec. |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:06:00 -
[804] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:luredivino wrote:They removed the changes to the megathron and the hyperion, but left the changes for the Dominix that the people who use it for missions were complaining about..... Once you get out of the newbie tutorial zone those domi changes help amazingly in null sec! I can confirm that domis will completely replace slowcats because no one at CCP understands what makes slowcats good.
EDIT: Knock some turrets off the domi, give it +1 drones/+25mbit bandwidth per level instead of 10% damage. |
Berial Inglebard
Toxic Waste Industries Sadistica Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:08:00 -
[805] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:Rep received is a bad idea. It is effectively only half of the resist bonus.
How would this be the case? a) resistance penalties stack, and at 4% per level you're looking at a built in EANM at lvl5. Stacked with other resist modules you're looking at maybe an effective 5% increase across the board from 70% to 75% in most cases (just assuming average battleship fleet resists here. This is negating 1/6th more damage (16.7%) making the logistics ~17% more effective. A max gal BS Hyperion with the received rep bonus would make the logistics 37.5% more effective. |
Kyo Avanta
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:10:00 -
[806] - Quote
Best line in the OP was:
"We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too! "
Yes, making the Dominix worse than the "Suddenly Drone Boat" Armageddon is really exciting. I'm sooo looking forward to training Amarr Battleship 5. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1241
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:10:00 -
[807] - Quote
Berial Inglebard wrote:IrJosy wrote:Rep received is a bad idea. It is effectively only half of the resist bonus. How would this be the case? . Resistance bonus affects both EHP and reps received. |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:10:00 -
[808] - Quote
Berial Inglebard wrote:
How would this be the case? a) resistance penalties stack, .
No they don't. Ship bonuses don't stack with modules.
That said, a bump up to 10%/level and the addition of more incoming reps would make the active tank bonuses actually useful. Trade buffer for reps. |
Berial Inglebard
Toxic Waste Industries Sadistica Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:17:00 -
[809] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Berial Inglebard wrote:
How would this be the case? a) resistance penalties stack, .
No they don't. Ship bonuses don't stack with modules. That said, a bump up to 10%/level and the addition of more incoming reps would make the active tank bonuses actually useful. Trade buffer for reps.
They do stack penalty. Throw an eanm on an abaddon and you won't see the increase the modlue says it would give. If they didn't stack penalty we'd see 95% resist abaddons flying around :P |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2435
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:24:00 -
[810] - Quote
You know what? I've got it.
Hyperion gets a Hybrid damage bonus and a Hybrid falloff bonus.
Sniperion becomes a reality. Mane 614
|
|
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
330
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:25:00 -
[811] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please.
I actually really like this idea. Armor HP vs Armor resists gives different fitting options and doctrines. Keep it low so that it doesn't get stupidly high EHP, but it would allow gallente to not need plates or fit lighter plates (faster) as well as giving them a viable fleet option, it also wouldn't inherently disincentivize active rep situations. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:26:00 -
[812] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote: I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?
As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.
Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it.
Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced. There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap. Single Heavy Cap Booster 2 is saying 4mins for me before heat etc. Seems pretty standard amount of cap to me. And that assuming you need to run both reppers full time...
Get out of EFT and go play eve. In practice a Single Heavy cap injector does NOT sustain a Dual rep Hype for any reasonable amount of time.
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:27:00 -
[813] - Quote
Kyo Avanta wrote:Best line in the OP was:
"We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too! "
Yes, making the Dominix worse than the "Suddenly Drone Boat" Armageddon is really exciting. I'm sooo looking forward to training Amarr Battleship 5.
If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is... |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:28:00 -
[814] - Quote
Berial Inglebard wrote: They do stack penalty. Throw an eanm on an abaddon and you won't see the increase the modlue says it would give. If they didn't stack penalty we'd see 95% resist abaddons flying around :P
You should REALLY read up on how the game works before commenting in threads like this, bit I'll explain it for you nonetheless:
Abaddon has a base explosive resist of 40% in armor with BS 5 Put an explosive hardener on it, and that resist goes to 73% This means that there is no stacking penalty, because: Resist mods don't ADD resists, they reduce damage taken. A 55% hardener doesn't add 55% resists, it takes the explosive damage you would otherwise take, and reduces it by 55%.
You can check this by doing some simple math:
If you're taking 100 DPS of explosive damage at 40% resist (which would mean ~167 dps base being applied), and you add a hardener, your resist goes to 73%, meaning you now only take 27% of the base damage. 27% of 167 is ~45, or 45% of what you would have taken without the hardener. This means that a 55% hardener should in theory take you from 40% resist to 73, because this is the point at which 55% of the incoming explosive damage is negated, which is exactly what it does in game.
If resists were added to the base resist rather than subtracted from incoming damage, you would see every ship in the game sporting over 100% resists in most fits. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1115
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:35:00 -
[815] - Quote
OK CCP here's my take on this:
Note: SInce you've removed the updates I can't comment on them specifically. So, I'll just comment on what roles Gal BS's currently fill.
Dominix: The dominix currently fills the role of a heavy tank lower dps ships that is immensely flexible. And though it's not sexy to fly, it's reliable. It most closely fills the roll of a combat ship as you've defined except for DPS, it's lacking
Megathron: This ship has always been a solid attack ship. Its weakness is tank compared to the Domi but makes up for it in DPS at +1000dps with blasters and drone damage. It does have some flexibility in that it can field ECM drones plus one large neut. It most closely fills your attack ship role.
Hyperion: This ship has never had a role. Frankly, everything about this ship is subpar. Oh sure, on paper you can get 1400dps out of it but you can't hit the broadside of a barn with it even if you've triple webbed the barn. I've got 2 of them that I've spent years playing with here and there trying to find a role it can fill successfully. It's just fail!
The Dominix and the Mega are fine the way they are. The only ship that needs changed is the Hyperion. I don't really care what you do with it. Make it fill your bombardment role.....that's laughable with blasters....but still.....maybe this is your opportunity to both give it a role and make rails a valid pvp weapons platform......*hint* *hint* *wink* *wink*
HTFU!...for the children! |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
112
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:43:00 -
[816] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:. . .Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please. Why not do away with the active armor repping bonus on ships altogether and add in a Rig that increases the active armor rep amount? By a balanced amount, not necessarily 37.5%--it could be 15% or 20% for T1 to 30% T2, or whatever works out. That way, you'd leave all the armor ship pilots free to exercise active armor tanking when they see a need that fits their playstyle, and you would further differentiate between armor and shield tanking. The rig would not slow the ship down, so the pilot could choose active rigs (active rig, nano pump, and a nanobot (or perhaps resist or lower cap usage one)) or buffer ones (resists or trimarks).
As far as adding a +hp bonus, I do agree this would give Gallente more buffer on their ships, but I don't think it would address the issue of stronger remote reps received or the fact that they would still have to fit Armor plates (resist bonuses save the ship an EANM) to get an extended benefit from the change or that reppers would have to work harder to rep all the damage increased armor hitpoints would reflect. I do think its a creative solution, but I don't know if it'd work as well on a T1 hull without the juicy T2 resist profiles afforded by other ships that use a +armor hp per level--namely T3s. Maybe another rig could affect remote reps received?
I just don't know of another singular stat that benefits all aspects of tanking (buffer/remote/local) that a resist bonus does, and while I'm not advocating giving Gallente the same old go-to resist bonus, I am at a loss for another singular stat that does so much. |
Tritanium Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:44:00 -
[817] - Quote
Just one question: Now that large railguns are about to get completely removed from the game, would it be possible to have a viable blaster bs to do lvl4 missions? |
Kyo Avanta
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:45:00 -
[818] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:
If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...
CCP : "Hey we've got a fun and exciting idea for the Dominix!!"
Player: "Oooh! Do tell!"
CCP: "Okay ! We're going to make it less dynamic and make it purely a drone boat!!"
Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??"
CCP: "Nope!"
Player: "What about using it as a neut domi?"
CCP: "Nope! The Armageddon now does that a lot better :) "
Player: "Whaat?"
CCP: "Yup! But the Domi is GREAT for sniping and kiting with sentries though!!"
Player: "But sentries don't move....?"
CCP: "Yup! Very Exciting. o7 m8 o7"
|
Berial Inglebard
Toxic Waste Industries Sadistica Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:48:00 -
[819] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Berial Inglebard wrote: They do stack penalty. Throw an eanm on an abaddon and you won't see the increase the modlue says it would give. If they didn't stack penalty we'd see 95% resist abaddons flying around :P
You should REALLY read up on how the game works before commenting in threads like this, bit I'll explain it for you nonetheless: Abaddon has a base explosive resist of 40% in armor with BS 5 Put an explosive hardener on it, and that resist goes to 73% This means that there is no stacking penalty, because: Resist mods don't ADD resists, they reduce damage taken. A 55% hardener doesn't add 55% resists, it takes the explosive damage you would otherwise take, and reduces it by 55%. You can check this by doing some simple math: If you're taking 100 DPS of explosive damage at 40% resist (which would mean ~167 dps base being applied), and you add a hardener, your resist goes to 73%, meaning you now only take 27% of the base damage. 27% of 167 is ~45, or 45% of what you would have taken without the hardener. This means that a 55% hardener should in theory take you from 40% resist to 73, because this is the point at which 55% of the incoming explosive damage is negated, which is exactly what it does in game. If resists were added to the base resist rather than subtracted from incoming damage, you would see every ship in the game sporting over 100% resists in most fits.
You seem to be correct here. However, I'm still failing to see that, if an abaddon is, at max level post odessy, resisting 20% more damage AFTER all other resist are calculated, how does that make it "far worse" than a hyperion that would receive a 37.5% boost to received remote reps? Yes, I get that it would have lower EHP, making it more vulnerable to alpha. That's the point of the change I proposed.
Edit: also, I knew they didn't stack straight up, that's why I was referencing stacking penalties. Everyone should know: 1st mod: 100.0% effectiveness 2nd mod: 86.9% effectiveness 3rd mod: 57.1% effectiveness 4th mod: 28.3% effectiveness |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
827
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:51:00 -
[820] - Quote
Kyo Avanta wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:
If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...
Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??" CCP: "Nope!" When did it lose this option? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:53:00 -
[821] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Rysis Vyvorant wrote:I am really struggling to see how. Drones never had an issue hitting in the first place. Higher dps sentries will be able to hit at engagement ranges associated with BS fights in null sec.
Great but you are not really gaining much dps and you are losing versatility. On top of that you can not even really take advantage of a sniper fit - or at least one that would not be out done by any turret boat or even the Geddon.
If they add drone control range then we can start talking but Gallente have really lost their niche. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3336
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:55:00 -
[822] - Quote
I like the idea of a mega that can go armor or shield. If the utility slot was moved to the mid instead of taking from the low 7(7)/5/7 layout be better? I think it would do its job better for the role.
The hype might do better with the new layout of 8(8)/4/6 if the armor repair bonus was increased to 10% like the Incursus once had. Larger reps would mean the need for the dual cap injection would be less manditory.
The Domi would be better as a utility ship if the drone and damage bonus was increased to +15%, remove a turret or two and increase the drone bay by 125m3 and give it a +1 to drones launched instead of the proposed optimal range and tracking bonus.
Just my thoughts.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 17:57:00 -
[823] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kyo Avanta wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:
If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...
Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??" CCP: "Nope!" When did it lose this option?
Ok I've seen this too much. Yes, you can ignore any ship's bonus and get it to perform inadequately in other roles you try to shoehorn it into. Can we move on now? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
828
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:01:00 -
[824] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kyo Avanta wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:
If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...
Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??" CCP: "Nope!" When did it lose this option? Ok I've seen this too much. Yes, you can ignore any ship's bonus and get it to perform inadequately in other roles you try to shoehorn it into. Can we move on now? The ships bonus was not +1 turret hard point per level, the total affected damage loss is around 150dps with blasters. quit whining that this ship is useless and pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine, the functionality of the ships has not gone down at all, the only change is that sentry and heavy drones will be able to hit better with out the need to plug in 2 omnidirectional tracking links. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1114
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:02:00 -
[825] - Quote
This is by some considerable distance, the best thread I have seen for quite some time in Eve.
Opinions are rationally expressed and well argued.
Very little of the, 'you're stupid' nonsense.
I have managed to learn quite a bit about the various Gallente Battleships which I never new before.
The whole thread is a credit to all the players involved. This is not a signature. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:07:00 -
[826] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The ships bonus was not +1 turret hard point per level, the total affected damage loss is around 150dps with blasters. quit whining that this ship is useless and pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine, the functionality of the ships has not gone down at all, the only change is that sentry and heavy drones will be able to hit better with out the need to plug in 2 omnidirectional tracking links.
You're bad, and you should feel bad. An explanation is beyond you so you don't get one. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:11:00 -
[827] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kyo Avanta wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:
If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...
Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??" CCP: "Nope!" When did it lose this option? Ok I've seen this too much. Yes, you can ignore any ship's bonus and get it to perform inadequately in other roles you try to shoehorn it into. Can we move on now? The ships bonus was not +1 turret hard point per level, the total affected damage loss is around 150dps with blasters. quit whining that this ship is useless and pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine, the functionality of the ships has not gone down at all, the only change is that sentry and heavy drones will be able to hit better with out the need to plug in 2 omnidirectional tracking links.
There is no reason to brawl with this Domi, no reason to choose it over the half other dozen BS that have better survivability and damage (with bonus to match!).... I'm not even going to be so repetitive in mentioning that certain Amarr ship in comparison.
And loss of this function/role is only one of several. |
Kyo Avanta
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:14:00 -
[828] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: The ships bonus was not +1 turret hard point per level, the total affected damage loss is around 150dps with blasters. quit whining that this ship is useless and pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine, the functionality of the ships has not gone down at all, the only change is that sentry and heavy drones will be able to hit better with out the need to plug in 2 omnidirectional tracking links.
A 25% loss to blaster dps isn't irrelevant. And like Marxzo Andoun said you can always force a ship to be fit whatever way you like, but losing the explicit ship bonuses has a major affect on the overall performance and versatility of a ship. Also, you seemed to clearly ignore my second point that the Neut Domi is no longer a relevant option since the Armageddon is by far and away superior in this regard. The superiority of the Geddon is based on the fact that it now has such a strong set of nueting bonuses, but then again, like you said - apparently ship bonuses don't matter. Maybe I should start fitting my Megathron with Light missiles... because you know.. why the hell not? |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:15:00 -
[829] - Quote
Roime wrote:Why do people keep mentioning battleship sniping like it was actually something you can do in this game
No idea like I have no idea why people keep sharing their fittings. Fittings are unique ( or at least they should be ) and i'm dam tired of hearing that " just fit two EANM's and a damage control " jesus Christ no clue what so ever.
While you are at it CCP just reduce the calibration points on all ships 225 over the standard 400 ( 350 for shiny pirate ships ) then we can all rest easy knowing that the only rigs that matter are HP buff or resist rigs.
Askulf Joringer wrote: Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced.
OMG their has to be a consequence for your actions so obviously no you are not going to be stable ( however 2 x LAR's = 800 GJ over 15 seconds standard over the 10 seconds your injector cycles so if you are not shooting you can be stable injecting cap 800's ) you want to shoot MWD point and so on then something has to suffer.
Bouh Revetoile wrote: There is already sentry drones doctrines.
I love the way people are throwing that word around these days totally removes yourself from the tricky task of coming up with a fitting of your own might aswell just take fitting advice from the thread and have done with it everyone flying quad 1600 plate domi's no reason for diversity in a game like eve right ?????
Montevius Williams wrote: Gallente ships are generally the worst ships in game. So what do we do with the best Drone boat in class? Nerf it and make the Amarr drone boat better.
Ammar victor... CCP have made it quite clear to me from the first load of changes published that they are aiming for every race to use every thing in the game. I thought I would never see the day where an ammar ship had launchers like the proposed geddon. Can I has a tach mega please thank you.
Absolute absurdity.....
all in all i'm very depressed with these changes leave the bandwidth of the mega and the low slot layout alone take the utility high away if you are going to change anything like that but versatility dictates leave it there for them people that make more use of it than just a neut.
Who would think a BS fleet would want to call in capital ships without the need for yet another ship to swell the ranks and before you all start how well do frigs and recons hold up against being a primary target ???
You screw over the diversity of eve and the power my vengeance will be furious. |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
318
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:22:00 -
[830] - Quote
Berial Inglebard wrote: You seem to be correct here. However, I'm still failing to see that, if an abaddon is, at max level post odessy, resisting 20% more damage AFTER all other resist are calculated, how does that make it "far worse" than a hyperion that would receive a 37.5% boost to received remote reps? Yes, I get that the hyperion would have lower EHP, making it more vulnerable to alpha. That's the point of the change I proposed.
Incoming/local reps on a 20% resist bonused hull are 25% more effective. The argument is that the extra incoming/local reps on a 37% bonused hull wouldn't be enough of a difference to offset the advantage that the resist bonused ships get in the form of bigger buffers.
That said, to compare it to what we have now, the 5%/level resist bonus makes reps 33% more effective, so the difference between them and active tank bonuses are nearly non-existent. |
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1242
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:27:00 -
[831] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:You screw over the diversity of eve and the power my vengeance will be furious. Leave it alone. The vengeance is already OP, and is the best active tanking frig in the game. (poor gallente... can't even do their own active tanking thing right) .
And yes, the point that Amarr are the preferred armor tanking race ( active, passive, and remote) in Eve is being made here. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3336
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:27:00 -
[832] - Quote
Also increase the drone bandwidth on the Hype to 125m3 and give it and the Mega more drone bay room.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
av ra
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:36:00 -
[833] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I like the idea of a mega that can go armor or shield. If the utility slot was moved to the mid instead of taking from the low 7(7)/5/7 layout be better? I think it would do its job better for the role.
The hype might do better with the new layout of 8(8)/4/6 if the armor repair bonus was increased to 10% like the Incursus once had. Larger reps would mean the need for the dual cap injection would be less manditory.
The Domi would be better as a utility ship if the drone and damage bonus was increased to +15%, remove a turret or two and increase the drone bay by 125m3 and give it a +1 to drones launched instead of the proposed optimal range and tracking bonus.
Just my thoughts.
100% agree with these ideas. +1. Additionally, leave the Navy versions of the Domi and Mega completely unchanged save for the base stats that need to change. |
Soridar Ravencroft
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:55:00 -
[834] - Quote
These changes for Gal ships are nearly laughable. Gal ships are beat out in most every way by the 3 other races when it comes to BSs. Amarr hold the nuet and tank areas, Caldari has the EWAR BS, Minmatar has the speed and firepower, but Gal has close range brawlers that get owned by the rest.
Personally, I DO NOT CARE (and I would say most others agree) that there are plans for drone fixes and such. It does not exist until it is in game, and designing a ship with "future plans" as a focus is very poor planing. We all know that "future plans" end up taking forever, never turn out like they are intended and often don't match up with things designed before the final iteration is completed. So please for the love of all that is good don't do this.
The Domi is at best a "utility" BS, and this should be expanded rather than changed. The Logi Domi has always been stated as part joke and part truth. I don't see why this can't actually expanded on. This would give Gal a niche BS, and one which makes perfect since. It is after all a "mini carrier" and has the versatility of such.
CCP says that it listens to its players, are driven by what the players are looking for. The changes being proposed are nowhere near what the players want, they do not match up with the other races, and in the end only serve to even further separate Galente BSs from the other 3 races. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:07:00 -
[835] - Quote
CCP Rise any plans on reducing sentry drone training time? more so T2 sentry drones which takes many months of training when you consider you have to train other things as a young pilot as you progress through the ships i think the vexor is the earliest ship you can use a decent amount of sentries on which is rather useful for shooting POS's with the whole ammo issue and all. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
tasman devil
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:08:00 -
[836] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I must say, you guys do have a theatrical flair.
Look its 10pm and I'm trying to keep caught up on this, but I promise tomorrow we will go back through this Gal lineup and see if we can resolve some of the frustration.
I know I tried to lay out our intentions in the OP, but I want to lay it out again, just to make sure we're on the same page. I understand that many of you here aren't satisfied so we'll go back over it tomorrow and look at our options. In the mean time maybe this will help.
In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.
In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).
The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.
I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.
I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
Nice to see your comment, but please ... with sugar on top: go over the Amarr line too!!
I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either... |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
113
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:18:00 -
[837] - Quote
tasman devil wrote:Nice to see your comment, but please ... with sugar on top: go over the Amarr line too!!
I'm not sure what you expect him to "go over" on--the Amarr are the clear winners of this balance pass by a wide margin.
|
tasman devil
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:23:00 -
[838] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:tasman devil wrote:Nice to see your comment, but please ... with sugar on top: go over the Amarr line too!!
I'm not sure what you expect him to "go over" on--the Amarr are the clear winners of this balance pass by a wide margin. yeah, because they have been turned into Gallente...
Just take a look at the Armageddon, it is now a Dominix / Bhaalghorn hybrid that resembles the Typhoon. I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either... |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:29:00 -
[839] - Quote
tasman devil wrote:CCP Rise wrote:The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.
So neut, nos and cyno don't fall into the realms of utility ?????
I know that's only three mods but the rest of you can guess what the others are... |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1244
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:29:00 -
[840] - Quote
tasman devil wrote: yeah, because they have been turned into Gallente... on steroids.
|
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fukier
899
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:32:00 -
[841] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I like the idea of a mega that can go armor or shield. If the utility slot was moved to the mid instead of taking from the low 7(7)/5/7 layout be better? I think it would do its job better for the role.
The hype might do better with the new layout of 8(8)/4/6 if the armor repair bonus was increased to 10% like the Incursus once had. Larger reps would mean the need for the dual cap injection would be less manditory.
The Domi would be better as a utility ship if the drone and damage bonus was increased to +15%, remove a turret or two and increase the drone bay by 125m3 and give it a +1 to drones launched instead of the proposed optimal range and tracking bonus.
Just my thoughts.
domi is not going to change... its the new king slowcat... personally i am in love with it...
as for the mega... i would think a better rate of fire bonus and remove one gun so that its 6 turrets one utility high slot and then add back a low... i would like to see the tracking bonus replaced with a falloff but hey i can live without it... now you can shield tank it and go nuts with nano or proper armor tank it... plus think nuetrons with null with a 50% increase in falloff?!?!?
as for the hype? i would increase the damage bonus and reduce to 6 turrets take away a high slot and replace with a mid slot. include a cap activation redcution for the armor bonus... so you now would have 7 high slots 6 turret 5 mid slots and 7 low slots... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
fukier
899
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:36:00 -
[842] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote:
Ok I've seen this too much. Yes, you can ignore any ship's bonus and get it to perform inadequately in other roles you try to shoehorn it into. Can we move on now?
The ships bonus was not +1 turret hard point per level, the total affected damage loss is around 150dps with blasters. quit whining that this ship is useless and pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine, the functionality of the ships has not gone down at all, the only change is that sentry and heavy drones will be able to hit better with out the need to plug in 2 omnidirectional tracking links. There is no reason to brawl with this Domi, no reason to choose it over the other half dozen BS that have better survivability and damage (with bonus to match!).... I'm not even going to be so repetitive in mentioning that certain Amarr ship in comparison. And loss of this function/role is only one of several.
true that i mean i can use sentry drones at 150km and do great dps...
surely you can use nuets out to that range and would not be a waisted bonus if you tried a simular setup on the geddon
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:40:00 -
[843] - Quote
tasman devil wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:tasman devil wrote:Nice to see your comment, but please ... with sugar on top: go over the Amarr line too!!
I'm not sure what you expect him to "go over" on--the Amarr are the clear winners of this balance pass by a wide margin. yeah, because they have been turned into Gallente... Just take a look at the Armageddon, it is now a Dominix / Bhaalghorn hybrid that resembles the Typhoon.
R.I.P Bhaalgorn your services are no longer required because the geddon can now out range you, has the ability to use any turrets that don't need cap, use launchers, have drones like a domi and has better calibration because that is what eve has been missing right an amarrian drone boat that can out do ( apart from the neut, nos amount ) a pirate BS and a native drone race. |
Mire Stoude
Antelope with Night Vision Goggles
166
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:54:00 -
[844] - Quote
Rails and blasters have been stolen by the Caldari, the Amarr have the better drone boats, active (armor) tanking is not realistic for pvp, and RSD's work great on ANY ship so It's time to embrace the 1 role the Gallente ships still excel at: HULL TANKING!
Gallente ships have the thickest hull, get rid of the Hypes active tank bonus, and give it +10% hull resists per level. This would give the Hype the ability to use all its mids and lows (minus 1 low slot for a damage control) for damage and mobility while still sporting a respectible eHP |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
546
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:54:00 -
[845] - Quote
Kyo Avanta wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: The ships bonus was not +1 turret hard point per level, the total affected damage loss is around 150dps with blasters. quit whining that this ship is useless and pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine, the functionality of the ships has not gone down at all, the only change is that sentry and heavy drones will be able to hit better with out the need to plug in 2 omnidirectional tracking links.
A 25% loss to blaster dps isn't irrelevant. And like Marxzo Andoun said you can always force a ship to be fit whatever way you like, but losing the explicit ship bonuses has a major affect on the overall performance and versatility of a ship. Also, you seemed to clearly ignore my second point that the Neut Domi is no longer a relevant option since the Armageddon is by far and away superior in this regard. The superiority of the Geddon is based on the fact that it now has such a strong set of nueting bonuses, but then again, like you said - apparently ship bonuses don't matter. Maybe I should start fitting my Megathron with Light missiles... because you know.. why the hell not?
This whole post is full of 'wtf'. As it's been said time and time again, the damage loss from fitting large hybrids is minimal. By minimal I mean 150-200dps on a MAX GANK setup, which means you're now stuck with ~1300 for that. On a TYPICAL fit the damage difference is much much smaller, and I'd argue something like 100dps or less.
At the same time you're gaining a nice boost of hp & drone damage application. You're not exactly coming out behind. You can still fit your blasters/rails, and chances are you wouldn't even notice something was off if you were unaware of the change.
As for the new Armageddon... I think you're overestimating the ship quite a bit. SET of neuting bonuses? Let's be clear It has one and that's range. That means you're getting a MAXIMUM of 38km neuting range (without faction gear) on a battleship that has 4 mid slots, destructible damage (drones), and an almost guaranteed passive tank.
It does not have a neut AMOUNT bonus like the Bhaalgorn, so stop making comparisons to it. A Neut Dominix (in brawling trim no less) is entirely capable of handling one. Hell, I'd even argue ANY of the 5+ slot battleships will be able to deal with the ship quite handily. If you're really concerned about the extreme neuting prowess of that highly cap unstable battleship (which would be an utter fool to fit more than 2 neuts on), do what nobody seems to do and try running a Large Cap Battery. FYI, they reduce incoming neut drain by 12.5%. A plated Tempest would absolutely eat an Armageddon.
Furthermore, PRICES ARE BEING NORMALIZED. The Hyperion is no longer 250m, so it shouldn't be performing like its way better. -áwww.promsrage.com |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:59:00 -
[846] - Quote
fukier wrote: domi is not going to change... its the new king slowcat... personally i am in love with it...
as for the mega... i would think a better rate of fire bonus and remove one gun so that its 6 turrets one utility high slot and then add back a low... i would like to see the tracking bonus replaced with a falloff but hey i can live without it... now you can shield tank it and go nuts with nano or proper armor tank it... plus think nuetrons with null with a 50% increase in falloff?!?!?
as for the hype? i would increase the damage bonus and reduce to 6 turrets take away a high slot and replace with a mid slot. include a cap activation redcution for the armor bonus... so you now would have 7 high slots 6 turret 5 mid slots and 7 low slots...
See underlines bad troll get back under your bridge
fukier wrote:true that i mean i can use sentry drones at 150km and do great dps... surely you can use nuets out to that range and would not be a waisted bonus if you tried a simular setup on the geddon
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
150Km neuts are you smoking something just take a min and think about what you are saying...
If you do not understand me let me repeate
NO |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1245
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:00:00 -
[847] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:As for the new Armageddon... I think you're overestimating the ship quite a bit.
Not at all. It has 5,500 more PWG than the Domi and will therefore be able to out-tank, and out-dps the Domi while also fitting 2x Heavy Neuts that reach to 35km. Bottom line, Prophecy does everything better than the Dominix EXCEPT "Sniper Domi".
In other words: Engagement envelope of Geddon: Huge. Engagement envelope of Domi: miniscule. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3339
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:06:00 -
[848] - Quote
Mire Stoude wrote:Rails and blasters have been stolen by the Caldari, the Amarr have the better drone boats, active (armor) tanking is not realistic for pvp, and RSD's work great on ANY ship so It's time to embrace the 1 role the Gallente ships still excel at: HULL TANKING!
Gallente ships have the thickest hull, get rid of the Hypes active tank bonus, and give it +10% hull resists per level. This would give the Hype the ability to use all its mids and lows (minus 1 low slot for a damage control) for damage and mobility while still sporting a respectible eHP Something like this. It was something I came up with a while ago, but there may be something that will spark an interest in hull tanking.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
453
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:07:00 -
[849] - Quote
*Sigh*
Prom thinking about balance purely on the 1 vs 1 arena again.
38km neuts will be a big deal and will make the geddon a very popular ship, when combined with new beam apocs of abaddons - you could probably leave your loki/rapier/huggin at home. The bonuses have just too much synergy and relevance in this current game and pretending that it's no big deal, and that you should just bumble through and that you suck if you can't make it work is annoying as hell. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
David Kir
Pixel Navigators Hostile Work Environment.
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:07:00 -
[850] - Quote
I think you people are overestimating the geddon.
The true OP ship, in m opinion, is the apoc.
Great tracking, incredibly good dps projection (scorch be blessed), good speed and agility.
Gonna have a blast flying it :D |
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3339
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:14:00 -
[851] - Quote
David Kir wrote:I think you people are overestimating the geddon.
The true OP ship, in m opinion, is the apoc.
Great tracking, incredibly good dps projection (scorch be blessed), good speed and agility.
Gonna have a blast flying it :D Scorch really needs a nerf bad.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:19:00 -
[852] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:fukier wrote: domi is not going to change... its the new king slowcat... personally i am in love with it...
as for the mega... i would think a better rate of fire bonus and remove one gun so that its 6 turrets one utility high slot and then add back a low... i would like to see the tracking bonus replaced with a falloff but hey i can live without it... now you can shield tank it and go nuts with nano or proper armor tank it... plus think nuetrons with null with a 50% increase in falloff?!?!?
as for the hype? i would increase the damage bonus and reduce to 6 turrets take away a high slot and replace with a mid slot. include a cap activation redcution for the armor bonus... so you now would have 7 high slots 6 turret 5 mid slots and 7 low slots...
See underlines bad troll get back under your bridge fukier wrote:true that i mean i can use sentry drones at 150km and do great dps... surely you can use nuets out to that range and would not be a waisted bonus if you tried a simular setup on the geddon NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 150Km neuts are you smoking something just take a min and think about what you are saying... If you do not understand me let me repeate NO
oh ffs... i know you cant use nuets out that far... it was my point... dolt...
the geddon is better for close range and the domi is a better slow cat...
understand now? ffs...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:20:00 -
[853] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:As for the new Armageddon... I think you're overestimating the ship quite a bit. SET of neuting bonuses? Let's be clear It has one and that's range. That means you're getting a MAXIMUM of 38km neuting range (without faction gear) on a battleship that has 4 mid slots, destructible damage (drones), and an almost guaranteed passive tank.
It does not have a neut AMOUNT bonus like the Bhaalgorn, so stop making comparisons to it. A Bhaalgorn will remove more cap than it takes to activate its neut. That (in addition to its capacitor) is why it does its job well. The Armageddon is not that. If that were the case, you would have been seeing people using Neut Domis left right and center instead of the Bhaalgorns that everyone loves.
Heavy meta 4 neut uses 500 Gj per cycle -45% ( 3 x large egress port maximize I rigs 300 calibration points ) = 275 Gj per cycle so you can run 2.9 ( for arguments sake 3 heavy neuts ) per cap charge ( 1 800 cap booster ).
Just as an FYI 500 Gj used to activate 600 Gj neuted every neut neutralises more than it uses.
People do use neut domi's as a cheap version to the bhaalgorn then they shop for a bhaalgorn if they want to neut even more. |
fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:20:00 -
[854] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:David Kir wrote:I think you people are overestimating the geddon.
The true OP ship, in m opinion, is the apoc.
Great tracking, incredibly good dps projection (scorch be blessed), good speed and agility.
Gonna have a blast flying it :D Scorch really needs a nerf bad.
or conversely beams need a boost. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
549
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:21:00 -
[855] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:*Sigh*
Prom thinking about balance purely in the 1 vs 1 arena again.
38km neuts will be a big deal and will make the geddon a very popular ship, when combined with new beam apocs or abaddons - you could probably leave your loki/rapier/huggin at home. The bonuses have just too much synergy and relevance in this current game and pretending that it's no big deal, and that you should just bumble through and that you suck if you can't make it work is annoying as hell.
I'm not saying it won't be popular, I'm saying it won't be as amazing as many people are implying. In the grand scheme I'd be VERY surpised if Battleship fighters really care about some heavy neuts with 12km more range.
Smaller ship classes already avoid the 25km heavy neut danger zone like the plague, and the same can be said for dealing with any Recons. The latter being ships that are far more threatening in a roaming fleet than a fleet BS will ever be.
The day I start seeing people regularly roaming around in gangs with BS in them again, is the day I will applaud CCP. As far as FLEET situations go, 38km means nothing to a battleship. -áwww.promsrage.com |
fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:24:00 -
[856] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:As for the new Armageddon... I think you're overestimating the ship quite a bit.
Not at all. It has 5,500 more PWG than the Domi and will therefore be able to out-tank, and out-dps the Domi while also fitting 2x Heavy Neuts that reach to 35km. Bottom line, Prophecy does everything better than the Dominix EXCEPT "Sniper Domi". In other words: Engagement envelope of Geddon: Huge. Engagement envelope of Domi: miniscule.
from a 0.0 ratting perspective the domi is better...
i use the high slots for utility and more applied damage (see tracking formula) the domi is the better pve ship by far and for slowcats its much better then the geddon...
but for 40km less fights then yeah... nueting domi eat your heart out... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3341
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:31:00 -
[857] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:*Sigh*
Prom thinking about balance purely in the 1 vs 1 arena again.
38km neuts will be a big deal and will make the geddon a very popular ship, when combined with new beam apocs or abaddons - you could probably leave your loki/rapier/huggin at home. The bonuses have just too much synergy and relevance in this current game and pretending that it's no big deal, and that you should just bumble through and that you suck if you can't make it work is annoying as hell. I'm not saying it won't be popular, I'm saying it won't be as amazing as many people are implying. In the grand scheme I'd be VERY surpised if Battleship fighters really care about some heavy neuts with 12km more range. Smaller ship classes already avoid the 25km heavy neut danger zone like the plague, and the same can be said for dealing with any Recons. The latter being ships that are far more threatening in a roaming fleet than a fleet BS will ever be. The day I start seeing people regularly roaming around in gangs with BS in them again, is the day I will applaud CCP. As far as FLEET situations go, 38km means nothing to a battleship. It really boils down to risk aversion. Why bring a BS when you can bring something far more agile and better speed to turn avoid an actual fight with an almost identical damage profile?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
453
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:32:00 -
[858] - Quote
*Battleship fighters* won't - but i'm sure t1/t2 logistics, HIC's and tacklers will. :/
The mere fact that a BS has neut bonuses (and unbonused highs on the domi to boot) will generally guarantee MORE neuts, fist ******* active tanking further. From my point of view, that's the grand scheme of things.
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:33:00 -
[859] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:David Kir wrote:I think you people are overestimating the geddon.
The true OP ship, in m opinion, is the apoc.
Great tracking, incredibly good dps projection (scorch be blessed), good speed and agility.
Gonna have a blast flying it :D Scorch really needs a nerf bad.
Scorch is one of the few things keeping lasers competitive with projectiles. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1246
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:33:00 -
[860] - Quote
fukier wrote: from a 0.0 ratting perspective the domi is better... In what sense? I've never had an issue hitting rats with drones. |
|
fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:36:00 -
[861] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:*Sigh*
Prom thinking about balance purely in the 1 vs 1 arena again.
38km neuts will be a big deal and will make the geddon a very popular ship, when combined with new beam apocs or abaddons - you could probably leave your loki/rapier/huggin at home. The bonuses have just too much synergy and relevance in this current game and pretending that it's no big deal, and that you should just bumble through and that you suck if you can't make it work is annoying as hell. I'm not saying it won't be popular, I'm saying it won't be as amazing as many people are implying. In the grand scheme I'd be VERY surpised if Battleship fighters really care about some heavy neuts with 12km more range. Smaller ship classes already avoid the 25km heavy neut danger zone like the plague, and the same can be said for dealing with any Recons. The latter being ships that are far more threatening in a roaming fleet than a fleet BS will ever be. The day I start seeing people regularly roaming around in gangs with BS in them again, is the day I will applaud CCP. As far as FLEET situations go, 38km means nothing to a battleship. It really boils down to risk aversion. Why bring a BS when you can bring something far more agile and better speed to turn avoid an actual fight with an almost identical damage profile?
yeah seriously when did the nano nerf get reversed and it made sense to roam in bs's... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:38:00 -
[862] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:fukier wrote: from a 0.0 ratting perspective the domi is better... In what sense? I've never had an issue hitting rats with drones.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage
better optimal range and tracking means higher chance to hit...
specially on those pesky npc hacs...
garde II will be much better now on the domi... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
551
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:38:00 -
[863] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:*Battleship fighters* won't - but i'm sure t1/t2 logistics, HIC's and tacklers will. :/
The mere fact that a BS has neut bonuses (and unbonused highs on the domi to boot) will generally guarantee MORE neuts, fist ******* active tanking further. From my point of view, that's the grand scheme of things.
For HICs, they're kinda used to being neuted to ****. Someone doing so from slightly further out isn't really a deal breaker. They're used to tackle capital ships ffs.
For light tacklers (namely interceptors) it does pose a bit of an issue on paper, but we do still have the EAF class that needs reworking. In the meantime there are Recons and those god forsaken link bonuses.
For T2 logistics, they shouldn't care. They stay out at a greater distance.
Saying the geddon is detrimental to active tanking like saying the Tempest is guilty of the same thing. The cap being removed is the same. The levels of tank and damage are similar. The only difference is 12km and tunnel vision people seem to be stuck with.
And the roaming BS comment was saying that geddons WOULDNT be a threat to roaming gangs and such because very very few people fly around in Battleships. If they were, then CCP would have done some magic, hence my applause. -áwww.promsrage.com |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1246
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:41:00 -
[864] - Quote
fukier wrote:X Gallentius wrote:fukier wrote: from a 0.0 ratting perspective the domi is better... In what sense? I've never had an issue hitting rats with drones. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damagebetter optimal range and tracking means higher chance to hit... specially on those pesky npc hacs... garde II will be much better now on the domi... Again, never had a problem. In any case, we're at "sniper domi" and shooting npc hacs. Anything else?
Everything else goes in favor of the Geddon. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3920
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:41:00 -
[865] - Quote
Quote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal. That would be very helpful.
Either move only when told to return to bay...
Or...
Always attempt to return to orbit when not actively firing... but when firing are always stationary...
Or my favorite...
Always stay in a loose formation around your ship (if they can keep up with you) even while firing.... with no ability to move independantly towards the enemy. The always attempt to stay right beside you, which makes picking them up during or after an engagement a lot easier. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:49:00 -
[866] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:fukier wrote:X Gallentius wrote:fukier wrote: from a 0.0 ratting perspective the domi is better... In what sense? I've never had an issue hitting rats with drones. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damagebetter optimal range and tracking means higher chance to hit... specially on those pesky npc hacs... garde II will be much better now on the domi... Again, never had a problem. In any case, we're at "sniper domi" and shooting npc hacs. Anything else? Everything else goes in favor of the Geddon.
yes from a ratting pov its better as it will apply more dps...
hitting elite frigs and cruisers in a current domi is a pain and you usually have to recall and launch light drones to shoot stuff wich slows you down... not with the new domi as its tracking is extreamly good... which means less lightly hits and more wreaking blows...
try this out once it hits sisi... pretty sure you will get more isk per tick on a ratting domi then on the geddon...
i already said that 40km and less the geddon is better for close range pvp... i mean i cant wait for the nueting sentry geddon!
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
454
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:49:00 -
[867] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Saying the geddon is detrimental to active tanking like saying the Tempest is guilty of the same thing. The cap being removed is the same. The levels of tank and damage are similar. The only difference is 12km and tunnel vision people seem to be stuck with.
And the roaming BS comment was saying that geddons WOULDNT be a threat to roaming gangs and such because very very few people fly around in Battleships. If they were, then CCP would have done some magic, hence my applause.
The whole point of this rebalance as I see this is to give battleships a bit of a refresh and obviously that will make them more popular.
The Tempest is guilty, so were old school Canes and in this instance,and introducing a cheap, bonused neuting hull will certainly increase energy neutraliser proliferation - making you'll face neuts more often or have more neuts to contend with per engagement.
I mean, this trend shouldn't be up for dispute. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
David Kir
Pixel Navigators Hostile Work Environment.
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:49:00 -
[868] - Quote
Doctor Ape MD wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:David Kir wrote:I think you people are overestimating the geddon.
The true OP ship, in m opinion, is the apoc.
Great tracking, incredibly good dps projection (scorch be blessed), good speed and agility.
Gonna have a blast flying it :D Scorch really needs a nerf bad. Scorch is one of the few things keeping lasers competitive with projectiles.
600 constant dps at 60 km, without range mods. Neither the Megathron or the Tempest can compete with that kind of damage projection. We yet have to see how will Raven and Typhoon work out, once BS missiles get rebalanced, but i can see the apoc being quite an opponent.
|
luredivino
Juice Indicate
22
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:50:00 -
[869] - Quote
I threw some 800mm autocannons on the dominix to see what the change would do to the ship. The 2nd bonus allows you to use the navy dominix fit on the regular dominix since you don't need the extra mid for the tracking link. You lose about 100 dps and significant range, but you can fit a stronger tank and don't lose cap from guns.
[Dominix, dominix] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field Gist C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Shield Boost Amplifier II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Garde II x5
1100 dps 1200 dps kin/therm tank cap lasts 3.5 minutes
Would still like extra control range. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:51:00 -
[870] - Quote
I love the change to the domi and I hate it...
yes it losses the hybrid bonus and gains some drone love. thats all ok... but I'd like to see more powergrid and drone control range bonus + drone bay increase.
maybe this 3000 km per BS skill lvl +25 drone bay ( maybe even 50? ) 500 powergrid
|
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fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:52:00 -
[871] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal. That would be very helpful. Either move only when told to return to bay... Or... Always attempt to return to orbit when not actively firing... but when firing are always stationary... Or my favorite... Always stay in a loose formation around your ship (if they can keep up with you) even while firing.... with no ability to move independantly towards the enemy. The always attempt to stay right beside you, which makes picking them up during or after an engagement a lot easier.
you know what i found out if you are warping away but told your drones to return to the bay and you enter warp... you dont loose controll of the drones and they apear in distant space...
why cant you just have drones automatically move to distant space then loose controll when you warp off? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1246
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:55:00 -
[872] - Quote
fukier wrote:i already said that 40km and less the geddon is better for close range pvp... i mean i cant wait for the nueting sentry geddon! No worries, I'm just whining at this point. It seems the Amarr don't like their new Geddon anyways. So my suggestion to CCP is to give the Dominix the powergrid and neuting bonus of the proposed Geddon. We'll be happy. They'll be happy. Everything will be great. |
fukier
900
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:57:00 -
[873] - Quote
luredivino wrote:wtf fittings. i dont get it... your space rich but no tech II rigs? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:06:00 -
[874] - Quote
one solution to the drone control range is to change sentry control range to make more sense why would you need 100km plus control range when its sitting next to the ship? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:07:00 -
[875] - Quote
luredivino wrote:I threw some 800mm autocannons on the dominix to see what the change would do to the ship. The 2nd bonus allows you to use the navy dominix fit on the regular dominix since you don't need the extra mid for the tracking link. You lose about 100 dps and significant range, but you can fit a stronger tank and don't lose cap from guns.
[Dominix, dominix] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field Gist C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Shield Boost Amplifier II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Garde II x5
1100 dps 1200 dps kin/therm tank cap lasts 3.5 minutes
Would still like extra control range.
So you get a bonus to tracking and range for drones but you can not use the range. This is exactly why it is ****! |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:07:00 -
[876] - Quote
Unless there is some serious change in armor tanking the proposed hyperion is really in deep trouble. As active armor tanking is viable only in small gangs you need full tackle and mwd on active armor tanking ships. You run your mwd to get close asap and tackle. Then you really want to be be cap stable (or injected cap stable) with mwd off, tackle, guns and tank on.
Lets have a look at ships which can do this, using double rep fit.
- Myrmidon: No problem fitting 2 medium cap boosters with full tackle. Can run without cap using guns. Behaving fine.
- Brutix: With dual rep fit it will have ion in high. With full tackle it has only single cap booster. It is not cap stable with guns+tackle+reps. But it has utility high which when fited with nos makes it cap stable (Granted nos is bit meh).
- Hyperion: With dual LAR fit needs to downgrade to half electrons. When mwd is off, full tackle, guns and reps running it is NOT CAP STABLE EVEN WITH 2 META 4 LARGE CAP BOOSTERS. In other words, single cap booster is impossible. Also since you are in small gang you really want full tackle. Wth current setup its doable. With proposed, no way.
I can think of 2 solution:
- Swap the role for megathron and hyperion. The hyperion will be 8/5/6 with nice speed, 5% damage and 7,5% tracking. The Megathron will get 7/5/7 (6 turrets, 1 launcher) 10% damage bonus, 7,5% rep bonus, 125/125 drone bay. Base speed should be lower than of hyperion. I guess many people will be pissed about this change.
- Give the active rep bonus to dominix. It would be like Myrmidon with 6/5/7 slot layout, 375/125 drone bay, Same bonuses as myrmidon. Mega an hype will then be focused on blasters with different second bonus.
|
erittainvarma
Fistful of Finns Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:22:00 -
[877] - Quote
The only thing I don't like 7/5/6 Megathron, is that now shield tanking nano megathron isn't surprising anymore :(
Shield mega has been absolutely funniest ship I have ever flown, especially with well hidden booster loki. Oh the people reactions when they first come poking with "faster ships" and when they try to run megathron just keep following until they die. Killing frigates with neut + kite has been hilarious also.
What ever the final Megathron stats will be, I hope it keeps it quite good base speed and agility, tracking bonus and one utility high slot. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3920
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:25:00 -
[878] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:luredivino wrote:I threw some 800mm autocannons on the dominix to see what the change would do to the ship. The 2nd bonus allows you to use the navy dominix fit on the regular dominix since you don't need the extra mid for the tracking link. You lose about 100 dps and significant range, but you can fit a stronger tank and don't lose cap from guns.
[Dominix, dominix] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field Gist C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Shield Boost Amplifier II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Garde II x5
1100 dps 1200 dps kin/therm tank cap lasts 3.5 minutes
Would still like extra control range. So you get a bonus to tracking and range for drones but you can not use the range. This is exactly why it is ****! I've probably missed it, but what will the range of the Garde II be with the proposed Domi? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:27:00 -
[879] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:one solution to the drone control range is to change sentry control range to make more sense why would you need 100km plus control range when its sitting next to the ship?
Correct if I am wrong but the control range part of sentrys is actuall targeting..
As in if you have drone control range of 65km and ship targeting is 100km and rat is 80km then the sentry wont be able to fire on the rat until such time it comes within 65km... |
Ranamar
Li3's Electric Cucumber Li3 Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:29:00 -
[880] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:one solution to the drone control range is to change sentry control range to make more sense why would you need 100km plus control range when its sitting next to the ship?
Because you need to have control range out to the target in order to assign your drones to attack it. Yes, it's dumb, but that's how it works.
Alternatively, you might be able to assign your sentry drones to assist a frigate that's closer to the target and just sit around being a drone bunny. I'm not sure how sentry drones handle that if they're shooting outside your control range. |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
829
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:32:00 -
[881] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I've probably missed it, but what will the range of the Garde II be with the proposed Domi?
Ignoring that total crap fit, the base range of sentries is as follows Garde II 45K Bouncer II 90K Curator II 78.75K Warden II 112.5K
Garde II are the only ones that can be used at range without the need for multiple DLAs Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
271
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:35:00 -
[882] - Quote
Hey people, some BS *changed* ! They are *differents*.
When something is *different*, it's not necessarily *bad* ; you only need to *change* your mind and the point of view of the thing to see how good it will be.
With different BS, things will not be the same anymore ! It's tough, I know, and changes are scary, but we will survive. |
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
238
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:39:00 -
[883] - Quote
Response to this information over on TMC by NetheranE:
No, this makes it just as vulnerable to neuting. A single heavy cap booster will BARELY hold 2 t2 LAR, let alone the guns, tackle. This also completely negates the opportunity for tri-rep setups.
The Hyperion needs 1 thing. More grid.
The two most obvious choices for the Mega/Hyper are this:
1. Push the Hyper into a 6 Gun 10% Dmg Bonus 7/5/7 slot Blaster boat. Throw on around ~600-1000 base grid and you suddenly have an extremely viable solo and fleet ship.
2. Turn the Megathron into an 8 Gun 5% Dmg/RoF Bonus 8/5/6 slot Blaster machine. It can be downgraded to a 75mb/s bay at this point, or we can leave it at the 100mb/s.
This gives you two distinct ships. A super-tanky-uber-brawler in the Hyperion, and a ganky monstrosity in the Mega.
Essentially, you are giving the Hyper the old Mega's utility, which makes it the Mega such a great brawler. This creates a supreme brawling blaster battleship, which is what the Hyperion should be.
Next, you turn the Mega into the standard-buffer-gank machine it is known for, and give it the option to be the shield-gank-you-back-to-the-EVE-hole that the Hyperion was supposed to be but wasnt.
* * * * * |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:41:00 -
[884] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:
Hyperion: With dual LAR fit needs to downgrade to half electrons. When mwd is off, full tackle, guns and reps running it is NOT CAP STABLE EVEN WITH 2 META 4 LARGE CAP BOOSTERS. In other words, single cap booster is impossible. Also since you are in small gang you really want full tackle. Wth current setup its doable. With proposed, no way.
Are you really trying to fit all that PG hungry stuff to a hyperion ??
try this instead: [Hyperion, New Setup 1] Large Armor Repairer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Armor Repairer II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Faint Warp Disruptor I 100MN Afterburner II
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Valkyrie II x5 Infiltrator II x5
Swap drones as you wish but hyperion in its current state can get 1100 DPS with that fitting above it lasts 5 min ish include a strong exile and overload the reps and a 955 DPS tank.
Yeah it's a bit slow but you have to sacrifice something for your tank you can not have everything in eve get over it.
This is the state of eve today CCP you are breading people who can not think for themselves by Pigeon holing roles for ships with singular ideas for fittings yes the Hyperion could do with some improvement to vary setups for guns and rigs but please stop listening to people who want dual reps, neutron blasters, MWD's and anything else that is immensely power hungry. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3920
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:42:00 -
[885] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I've probably missed it, but what will the range of the Garde II be with the proposed Domi?
Ignoring that total crap fit, the base range of sentries is as follows Garde II 45K Bouncer II 90K Curator II 78.75K Warden II 112.5K Garde II are the only ones that can be used at range without the need for multiple DLAs Ahh, thanks (I'm at work right now).
So assuming max EW drone skill...
0 DLA's needed for Garde II's. 1 DLA for Curators 2 DLA for Bouncers 3 DLA for Wardens
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
n00b Paralex
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:43:00 -
[886] - Quote
I was actually very excited about the changes to the Megathron in particular. Lets keep the ROF bonus, as it does overall increase DPS more than the damage bonus. Cap stability isn't a huge issue as long as you have those skills trained up. It would hurt a lot more for armor throns though. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:44:00 -
[887] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Shpenat wrote:
Hyperion: With dual LAR fit needs to downgrade to half electrons. When mwd is off, full tackle, guns and reps running it is NOT CAP STABLE EVEN WITH 2 META 4 LARGE CAP BOOSTERS. In other words, single cap booster is impossible. Also since you are in small gang you really want full tackle. Wth current setup its doable. With proposed, no way. Are you really trying to fit all that PG hungry stuff to a hyperion ?? try this instead: [Hyperion, New Setup 1] Large Armor Repairer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Armor Repairer II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Faint Warp Disruptor I 100MN Afterburner II Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Valkyrie II x5 Infiltrator II x5 Swap drones as you wish but hyperion in its current state can get 1100 DPS with that fitting above it lasts 5 min ish include a strong exile and overload the reps and a 955 DPS tank. Yeah it's a bit slow but you have to sacrifice something for your tank you can not have everything in eve get over it. This is the state of eve today CCP you are breading people who can not think for themselves by Pigeon holing roles for ships with singular ideas for fittings yes the Hyperion could do with some improvement to vary setups for guns and rigs but please stop listening to people who want dual reps, neutron blasters, MWD's and anything else that is immensely power hungry. This.
BTW, there is now a LAAR which increase your burst active tank by a lot for more than one minute. |
n00b Paralex
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:45:00 -
[888] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I've probably missed it, but what will the range of the Garde II be with the proposed Domi?
Ignoring that total crap fit, the base range of sentries is as follows Garde II 45K Bouncer II 90K Curator II 78.75K Warden II 112.5K Garde II are the only ones that can be used at range without the need for multiple DLAs Ahh, thanks (I'm at work right now). So assuming max EW drone skill... 0 DLA's needed for Garde II's. 1 DLA for Curators 2 DLA for Bouncers 3 DLA for Wardens
Another thing they need to do is add the ability to have a longer drone control range. Maybe add another bonus to the Dominix +10KM drone control range per BS level. Or add another drone skill that adds 10KM drone range each level, or make the DLAs +40, or something more reasonable than 24 so we don't have to sacrifice so many guns to get the range we need. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
830
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:45:00 -
[889] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I've probably missed it, but what will the range of the Garde II be with the proposed Domi?
Ignoring that total crap fit, the base range of sentries is as follows Garde II 45K Bouncer II 90K Curator II 78.75K Warden II 112.5K Garde II are the only ones that can be used at range without the need for multiple DLAs Ahh, thanks (I'm at work right now). So assuming max EW drone skill... 0 DLA's needed for Garde II's. 1 DLA for Curators 2 DLA for Bouncers 3 DLA for Wardens Correct, it would be nice to see a role bonus on the ship for drone control range. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
638
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:46:00 -
[890] - Quote
How about you give the hyperion a 7/5/7 layout with the megas old tracking bonus (so three bonuses) and then make the mega an attack ship as planned?
Gallente will have a badass brawler that can active tank if needed and a giant version of the talos. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2176
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:50:00 -
[891] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Morning Rise,
Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.
"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."
A couple of things I would really like to get across.
'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.
"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.
Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.
Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.
Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.
This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.
Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.
I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.
Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please. THIS ,THIS, THIS!! A thousand times this!!!!
And for the record... while I don't consider the new bonus to the Dominix to be all that great it isn't my primary concern. What I am worried about is that, as it stands right now, the Dominix is functionally inferior to the new Armageddon.
Awesome drone tracking at range? That's nice... but the 'Geddon gains the new title of "versatile drone boat" because it can fit the same tank as the Domi... use the same amount of drones with the same damage/hp bonuses... but has more powergid (CPU can be easily worked around, just downgrade some mods)... can fit either launchers or turrets... and is better at neuting because it has a range bonus for them (which kiting frigates interceptors will hate). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:55:00 -
[892] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:However the 'Geddon gains the new title of "versatile drone boat" because it can fit the same tank as the Domi (possibly even a bit greater)... use the same amount of drones with the same damage/hp bonuses... and has more powergid (CPU can be easily worked around, just downgrade some mods)... more capacitor... can fit either launchers or turrets... and is better at neuting because it has a range bonus for them (which kiting frigates interceptors will hate). Obviously midslots are completely worthless... |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
455
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:57:00 -
[893] - Quote
I think it's boiling down to this:
Gallente Attack Ship 1 8/4/7 - 8 turrets - Highly agile - Good scan res/lock range - Small drone bay - Damage and Tracking Bonus
Gallente Combat Ship 1 7/5/7 - Slower - ROF and Rep Amount & Cap bonus - Full drone bay - Much reduced lock range - Higher sensor strength
Correct? Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3342
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:57:00 -
[894] - Quote
This will help the BS lineup find a place.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:58:00 -
[895] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:Shpenat wrote:
Hyperion: With dual LAR fit needs to downgrade to half electrons. When mwd is off, full tackle, guns and reps running it is NOT CAP STABLE EVEN WITH 2 META 4 LARGE CAP BOOSTERS. In other words, single cap booster is impossible. Also since you are in small gang you really want full tackle. Wth current setup its doable. With proposed, no way. Are you really trying to fit all that PG hungry stuff to a hyperion ?? try this instead: [Hyperion, New Setup 1] Large Armor Repairer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Armor Repairer II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Faint Warp Disruptor I 100MN Afterburner II Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Valkyrie II x5 Infiltrator II x5 Swap drones as you wish but hyperion in its current state can get 1100 DPS with that fitting above it lasts 5 min ish include a strong exile and overload the reps and a 955 DPS tank. Yeah it's a bit slow but you have to sacrifice something for your tank you can not have everything in eve get over it. This is the state of eve today CCP you are breading people who can not think for themselves by Pigeon holing roles for ships with singular ideas for fittings yes the Hyperion could do with some improvement to vary setups for guns and rigs but please stop listening to people who want dual reps, neutron blasters, MWD's and anything else that is immensely power hungry. This. BTW, there is now a LAAR which increase your burst active tank by a lot for more than one minute.
Indeed there are LAAR's but they are still far from viable IMO they need the capacity looking at or the reload times to compensate for the end cycle rep but that's for another thread. |
fukier
901
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 21:59:00 -
[896] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I've probably missed it, but what will the range of the Garde II be with the proposed Domi?
Ignoring that total crap fit, the base range of sentries is as follows Garde II 45K Bouncer II 90K Curator II 78.75K Warden II 112.5K Garde II are the only ones that can be used at range without the need for multiple DLAs Ahh, thanks (I'm at work right now). So assuming max EW drone skill... 0 DLA's needed for Garde II's. 1 DLA for Curators 2 DLA for Bouncers 3 DLA for Wardens Correct, it would be nice to see a role bonus on the ship for drone control range.
still saying the bonus for the domi should be this:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage , Drone hitpoints , Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed +5% to drone activation range and sentry drone damage
you could even drop a high slot and add an extra mid...
edit that might be a tad op for a tech I ship... how about when you split blops into two different ships you make these the 4 bonus...
it would be nice to have a pvp tech II bs tbh... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2176
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:07:00 -
[897] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:However the 'Geddon gains the new title of "versatile drone boat" because it can fit the same tank as the Domi (possibly even a bit greater)... use the same amount of drones with the same damage/hp bonuses... and has more powergid (CPU can be easily worked around, just downgrade some mods)... more capacitor... can fit either launchers or turrets... and is better at neuting because it has a range bonus for them (which kiting frigates interceptors will hate). Obviously midslots are completely worthless... Because a one mid-slot and drone tracking advantage over the 'Geddon completely makes up for everything else the 'Geddon will be equal and/or better at. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:08:00 -
[898] - Quote
Don't get why some people think that no longer needing to switch up to smaller drones to mop up frigates/smaller ships is somehow an interesting and dynamic change to the Dominix. IMO it's utterly snore-worthy. I'm really having a harder time thinking of a more uninteresting role for the Domi to occupy. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:11:00 -
[899] - Quote
fukier wrote: still saying the bonus for the domi should be this:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage , Drone hitpoints , Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed +5% to drone activation range and sentry drone damage
Again NO NO NO
double drone damage bonus one of them focusing on sentry drones talk about Pigeon holing a ship to use a single drone type. |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
202
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:12:00 -
[900] - Quote
Ok, after my post on my initial thoughts, I decided to come back and provide a bit more feedback.
This time I'll start with the dominix.
You aren't changing its fittings at all, but you are giving it a bit more cap and hp. The cap and HP are good... but it is still rather lackluster in the fittings. So lets do a few example fits.
Neut Brawler: [Dominix, Max Neut] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Reactor Control Unit II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Nosferatu II Medium Nosferatu II Medium Nosferatu II
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
This fit as of right now has 147k EHP - after the changes that should bump up to closer to 200k. Additionally, it can launch heavy drones and they will have enough tracking to take on even cruisers (though how you are getting a cruiser to be dumb enough to get close to a domi i'm not so sure about). Note however that this fit is maxed out on powergrid - it can manage 4 heavy neuts/nos, and 2 mediums, but it needs an RCU to do this. Compared to a changed geddon, and the geddon can manage the same tank with a MWD AND still manage to fit 7 heavy neuts. An RCU even allows it to fit a heavy cap booster instead of a medium (maybe even 2). So basically, if you want to do this fit after the changes, get a geddon.
Max Gank: [Dominix, PvP Gank] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Ogre II x5
This setup fits with a right now with perfect skills (though it maxes out the powergrid), and has a bit of CPU to spare. Currently, it will do 1542dps without overheating - after the changes it will do 1400dps, though it will have a little bit more hp. This gives everyone an idea of how exactly how much dps is lost - really, not all that much.
Now lets take a look at a sentry domi.
Sentry fit: [Thanatos, Slowcat] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Reactive Armor Hardener Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Drone Link Augmentor II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Capital Energy Transfer Array I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Garde II x10 +lots more drones
Oh... I'm sorry, thats a thanatos, not a domi. Gee, I wonder why that got linked. It probably had something to do with the fact that the thanatos can get LOTS of spare drones (survives them getting smartbombed, or getting bombed, etc.), it doesn't move much, and it has enough HP to survive people primarying it.
Lets compare that to a domi. The domi doesn't have tons of spare drones (can't replace more than a flight or two after getting bombed/smartbombed/warping and forgetting them), and has few enough HP that an enemy fleet can rather easily alpha them off the field - which kind of negates the idea of using remote reps, as the ship will be destroyed before its fleet mates can even lock it. Additionally, the domi can't really pursue any enemies, it cannot align without loosing its drones, it cannot refit off its fleet mates, and basically it doesn't have any advantage over the slowcats, or indeed, any other fleet doctrine. Now, it has the option of either sitting still and being a perfect target for either A) a bombing run or B) a pipebomb bridge, or moving around and loosing its drones. Note how carriers aren't particularly vulnerable to either of those things...
There is a reason why sentry domi's aren't used. Its the sentry drones.
Oh, and while we're at it... there is a reason why heavy drones aren't used often... its the heavy drones. The problem is the drone UI, the drones retardedness, and the drones vulnerability to anything that so much as sneezes at it. Fix the drones to be less vulnerable and easier to use (and sentries actually able to move - at a minimum have them sit at a distance from your ship) and then, THEN you might actually see the domi getting used.
So basically what it boils down to is that this domi isn't any more viable than the current one, and the changes are pretty useless. The only thing that will save the domi from the life of the casual mission runner is a drone overhaul.
-Arazel |
|
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
202
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:16:00 -
[901] - Quote
Now then, on to the hyperion. Lets go ahead and take a look at active armor tanking on the battleship level. Right now, we can take the current fit (2% pg implant needed at max skills for it to fit). [Hyperion, Triple Rep] Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Nanobot Accelerator I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
This is currently the BEST that you can manage with active armor tanking. It gets a 1637dps tank while there is nanite repair paste loaded, 888 while the ancillary armor rep is reloading, or 749 with just the ancillary rep running. With the hammerheads running, it does 821dps, 921 if it overheats its guns. And it can manage all of this for as long as its cap boosters last. Which, if it isn't carrying spare ammo, is about 3 and a half minutes. Now, lets compare this to another hyperion, buffer tanked.
[Hyperion, Blaster fleet] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Scrambler II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
So this one has 140k EHP, does 1090dps with drones, 1229 overheated. Now, if these two ships got into a fight, the triple rep one would win because it can tank the plated one. The problem is... fights in eve are never alone. If we were to bump it up to as much as 2 of each of these, if the two plated hyperions were to overheat for a little bit, they could tear through one of the triple rep, and then after it went down shift to the second hyperion and kill it too before the triple rep ones managed to kill one of the plated ones. Admittedly, one side or the other might use ECM drones, or something else, so it isn't quite as straight up as that, but just looking at dps and tank we can see the problem. Add to this that you rarely see 4 hyperions duking it out - you are more likely to see smaller ships supporting, or a battleship carrying neuts to ruin the active tank, or ECM drones/falcons from one side or the other, etc.
The big problem is this is the difference between 1 ship and 2 ships. The fact that merely going from 1 attacker to 2 would cause this ship to loose is why active tanking is BAD on the battleship level. Eve is not a solo game. Rarely do people go out runnign around solo, especially in battleships - and the tend to die when they do.
cont... |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
202
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:17:00 -
[902] - Quote
Now lets look at active shield tanking to see why it actually works. Take a look at the cyclone. Running a single ASB, the cyclone can get the exact same tank as the maelstrom can with a single ASB. But the cyclone also has the agility to get away from bigger ships that can munch on it. So a battlecruiser is supporting a battleships tank, with a battlecruisers agility. As we move to cruisers and smaller ships, active tanking becomes more and more popular, especially with shield tanking. Why? It preserves mobility, and you have a better chance to gtfo when your opponents friends show up. Additionally with shield tanking, you can essentially tank as well as the next size ship up - especially compared to armor tanking.
Now, if we looked at active shield tanking on battleships, a maelstrom could fit 2 ASB's to it, 2 invulns, and a damage control, and it now has just as much tank as this hyperion. How many slots used? 5. How many slots does this hyperion need to use to achieve these results? 8 + 3 rigs. I don't know about you... but that seems like more than a little silly that it takes 3 more hardpoints AND the rigs, just to manage the same thing.
So where am I going with this blob of text? If you want active tank, you need a mobile ship that can disengage. That means that if you want to active tank a gallente ship, you should active tank the ATTACK battleship, not a combat one. Additionally, any ATTACK battleship that relies on active tanking is basically going to be relegating itself to the role of "hit and run" or "picking on the little guys". This active hyperion could take on 2-3 battlecruisers without too much of an issue, if it could hold them on the field. That means that if you want an active armor tanked gallente battleship, its natural prey should be battlecruisers, and maybe even cruisers.
Additionally, any active tanking battleship should be able to manage to active tank without needing to devote every single slot to it. Specifically, an AAR should require 3 rigs and still be beaten out by an XLASB, especially not if you are limiting it to just 1 per ship. Yes, I am well aware that there has to be some differences between shield and armor tanking. However at the moment the difference is that active shield tanking is viable and active armor tanking isn't. That isn't what we should be doing.
-Arazel |
Kor'el Izia
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:17:00 -
[903] - Quote
Spreadsheet-o-zilla didnt point out that the recieved a buff to cap regen: Dominix cap/s +0.91 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3042
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:23:00 -
[904] - Quote
Arazel Chainfire wrote: [Hyperion, Blaster fleet]
Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Catlos JeminJees
E.M.P. Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
90
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:25:00 -
[905] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Arazel Chainfire wrote: [Hyperion, Blaster fleet]
Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically.
Alot of alliances use Blaster rokhs |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2437
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:29:00 -
[906] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically. The fact that this statement is a valid counterargument is the main reason CCP needs to take another look at blasters and Gallente ships in general. Mane 614
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3042
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:30:00 -
[907] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically. The fact that this statement is a valid counterargument is the main reason CCP needs to take another look at blasters and Gallente ships in general.
I go into a lot more depth on this problem in my post on page 25. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:37:00 -
[908] - Quote
Catlos JeminJees wrote: Alot of alliances use Blaster rokhs
And how many use gallent blaster fleets? :) In fact, rokh shield tank and optimal bonus (~50-60km 400 dps with nulls and double this at 30km) thats pretty good. And if i want tp use "canonicity" gallent fit (armor+blasters) I will never reach this range with same amount of TC or TE. Dont forget that rokh have more EHP than gallents BS (any of them :) ) |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:37:00 -
[909] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Because a one mid-slot and drone tracking advantage over the 'Geddon completely makes up for everything else the 'Geddon will be equal and/or better at. Oh yeah ! Let's compare these everything : - 200 more GJ of base capacitor ; - one more high slot ; - 12km more *range* for cap war modules ; - more PWG (lasers eat this).
on the other hand : - less total hp (a little more armor, less hull, less shield ; that much for the versatility) ; - less mobility ; - worse sensors ; - less CPU (drone modules eat this).
The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare. For anything at long range, the Dominix will be better (better sensors, better CPU), and basicaly anything involving drones (drones tracking/optimale range, mid slot, CPU). The Dominix will also be a LOT more versatile wilth this fifth mid slot.
Armageddon PG maybe a bit too big, or Dominix PG too low, but other than that, they are quite fine. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1248
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:42:00 -
[910] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare.
More power grid means better tank, bigger guns (of whatever type you want to install, there is no gun bonus on these hulls). More high slots. Armageddon will pwn the Domi. It's not even close. |
|
fukier
902
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:51:00 -
[911] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:fukier wrote: still saying the bonus for the domi should be this:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage , Drone hitpoints , Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed +5% to drone activation range and sentry drone damage
Again NO NO NO double drone damage bonus one of them focusing on sentry drones talk about Pigeon holing a ship to use a single drone type.
dont think you get how good the domi would be if that were its bonuses... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
202
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:57:00 -
[912] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Because a one mid-slot and drone tracking advantage over the 'Geddon completely makes up for everything else the 'Geddon will be equal and/or better at. Oh yeah ! Let's compare these everything : - 200 more GJ of base capacitor ; - one more high slot ; - 12km more *range* for cap war modules ; - more PWG (lasers eat this). on the other hand : - less total hp (a little more armor, less hull, less shield ; that much for the versatility) ; - less mobility ; - worse sensors ; - less CPU (drone modules eat this). The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare. For anything at long range, the Dominix will be better (better sensors, better CPU), and basicaly anything involving drones (drones tracking/optimale range, mid slot, CPU). The Dominix will also be a LOT more versatile wilth this fifth mid slot. Armageddon PG maybe a bit too big, or Dominix PG too low, but other than that, they are quite fine.
The geddon gets 50 less CPU than the domi after the changes, while having 5500 more powergrid. Here is a fit that will be viable for the geddon after the changes (may require either an ACR rig or a PG implant) [Armageddon, Neuts] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Reactive Armor Hardener Drone Damage Amplifier I
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
5x Guarde II or 5x Ogre II
After the changes, this fit will have more EHP, more neuting power, more drone damage, and only slightly less tracking than a comparable domi. Now, running all those neuts may be a bit of a problem but if you need that much neuting power then you are probably going to have something feeding this thing cap. But, you also have the option to run fewer neuts, guns, missiles, or any number of other fits.
Basically, if you are wanting to engage at close(ish) range, there is nothing that the domi can do now that the geddon can't do better.
-Arazel |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 22:58:00 -
[913] - Quote
Cold shower time.
The Domi is never gonna be a Cat or Boot anything.
Thanatos: 5/5/6 100k Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Shield & Armor Rep Range
Archon: 5/4/7 92.5 Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Cap Trans & Armor Rep Range +5 Armor Resists
Either/or: 2 Cap Trans, 2 Capital Armor Reps, Large Neut or Smart bomb.
Replicate that using large mods on a Domi and what do you get ? Zero DPS.
And, you're stuck with @ 60 k drone control range. And the base 70 k targeting range the Domi gets.
Now try building one of these supposedly Uber Cat/Boot fits. You need to loose 2 highs for drone link augmentor's right off the bat. Then at least 1 if not 2 sensor boosters to even get 100-110 targeting range.
With your 4 remaining highs you could waste them on dual cap trans and remote rep and basically get mediocre reps and overall crappy dps.
So Cat/Boot remote rep fits are pointless. Every DDA you add to a Domi Trashes Your Tank ! You're infinitely slower than the Ishtar or Gila. Ishtar has t2 resists, Gila gets a resist bonus. Domi is not alot cheaper than an Ishtar atm. About the only reason to choose it atm is that it's a bit cheaper , And, it can fit large neuts and guns. However, it will do that less than half as well vs the geddon so why bother ?
Under 40 k, Geddon hits you with drones, neuts and torps. 40-80k it can run a single drone augmentor and use cruise. Domi can ....... ? Not an eft wizard but unless you can get a full rack of 1400's on it, it's useless.
When it was the Only BS drone boat it was versatile and dynamic. Now that it's the Galente Sniper Battle Ship it just sucks. And it doesn't need a +10% bonus to range to do it.
Marlona could speak more knowledgeably, but IIRC NC used sentry Ishtars vs Goon's once. Not twice, just once. That should say Alot about how sentry sniping is gonna work as a doctrine or tactic.
|
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
667
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:03:00 -
[914] - Quote
The Dominix - as this ship will now be a pure drone boat, i feel that the sentry drone rig should be modified to increase the damage of all drones. In addition, hard-wiring implants that increase various aspects of drone performance should be added.
Without these additions, the dominix doesn't provide enough options for the player to make theirs unique and i feel it would be "unfair" to make the dominix the only combat ship that can't be customised in this way.
Does anyone else agree? Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2177
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:06:00 -
[915] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: Oh yeah ! Let's compare these everything : - 200 more GJ of base capacitor ; - one more high slot ; - 12km more *range* for cap war modules ; - more PWG (lasers eat this).
on the other hand : - less total hp (a little more armor, less hull, less shield ; that much for the versatility) ; - less mobility ; - worse sensors ; - less CPU (drone modules eat this).
Going down the list...
- The seemingly "small" advantage of the Geddon's capacitor is increased by a fair margin when skills and mods are applied. Remember that capacitor amount also affects capacitor recharge to a certain degree.
- I equate the Domi's extra mid-slot advantage to the Armageddon's extra high-slot... it's useful for fitting more weapons, neuts, and/or utility.
- That "small" range extension for heavy neuts does make a difference when you have enemies closing in (that's 12 more kms the enemy has to close under pressure from neuts) and frigates and interceptors that normally try to stay outside of heavy neut range while applying tackle will be well within range now... mandating heavy or suicide tackle.
- Keep in mind that the new Armageddon has no limitations in what weapon it can use. Instead of using high PG-CPU-capacitor eating lasers It can use launchers, hybrids, and projectiles all equally well (my money is on autocannons).
- Little less hp? The Geddon has 500 more armor (which is really the only stat that counts)... which, like the "small" capacitor advantage pointed out above, increases drastically when skills, mods, and implants are applied.
- When using sentries you aren't moving (unless you are willing to lose your sentries). The extra mobility that the Domi has over the Geddon is lost.
- Granted, the Geddon can't target as far or as fast as the Dominix... but it does have a slightly smaller sig radius.
- I don't consider CPU to be as big an issue as people are making it out to be. Just swap some mods for meta 4 equipment and/or drop an EANM for a regular Adaptive Nano Plating. Extra powergrid allows for more "breathing space" when it comes to fitting battleships. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
832
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:08:00 -
[916] - Quote
Truth be told the biggest problem with the Dominix, is the Armageddon. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
204
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:11:00 -
[917] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Truth be told the biggest problem with the Dominix, is the Armageddon.
No, the biggest problem with the domi is the drones...
-Arazel |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:15:00 -
[918] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote: The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare.
5,500 more power grid means better tank, bigger guns (of whatever type you want to install, there is no gun bonus on these hulls). More high slots. Armageddon will pwn the Domi. It's not even close. It's not that easy : fitting bigger weapons, the armageddon may have CPU issues, and 5 big guns are not better than 6 smaller guns (the contrary in fact) ; and the midslot allow for a cap booster to counter any supllementary neutralizer the geddon could have. To outdps the domi, the geddon need to go full weapon on its highs, and then will have CPU issues (large missiles eat CPU as well as high tier weapons).
Again, I'm not saying the perfect balance is found, but that's not the apocalypse people are making here. As I said, Armageddon probably have too much PG, or the Dominix not enough, but neglecting this fifth mid slot and say that the geddon will outperform the dominix in every single way is completely wrong, because this fifth mid slot is a fair amount of the versatility of the dominix.
And to be clear, I'd like this hybrid guns bonus, but if the objective is to differenciate the domi from the navy domi, I'm fine with this. Maybe they should have taken the other path, and make the Navy Domi the pure drone boat this domi is, following the Vexor/Vexor NI pattern ; that would haven't been the in the face change punch people are taking here, but that's not the end of the world IMO.
And again, if 16 ships need a role when only a fraction of them had one before, some ships will have to see their niche narrowed a bit to leave some place to their forgotten brothers. Remember too that BS will all cost about the same. The Dominix and Armageddon will no longer be the cheap BS they are now. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
832
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:16:00 -
[919] - Quote
Arazel Chainfire wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Truth be told the biggest problem with the Dominix, is the Armageddon. No, the biggest problem with the domi is the drones... -Arazel That applies to all drone ships, not just the Dominix. In reference to this thread and the BS drone role, the Armageddon completely wipes the table with the Dominix. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
fukier
902
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:24:00 -
[920] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Cold shower time.
The Domi is never gonna be a Cat or Boot anything.
Thanatos: 5/5/6 100k Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Shield & Armor Rep Range
Archon: 5/4/7 92.5 Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Cap Trans & Armor Rep Range +5 Armor Resists
Either/or: 2 Cap Trans, 2 Capital Armor Reps, Large Neut or Smart bomb.
Replicate that using large mods on a Domi and what do you get ? Zero DPS.
And, you're stuck with @ 60 k drone control range. And the base 70 k targeting range the Domi gets.
Now try building one of these supposedly Uber Cat/Boot fits. You need to loose 2 highs for drone link augmentor's right off the bat. Then at least 1 if not 2 sensor boosters to even get 100-110 targeting range.
With your 4 remaining highs you could waste them on dual cap trans and remote rep and basically get mediocre reps and overall crappy dps.
So Cat/Boot remote rep fits are pointless. Every DDA you add to a Domi Trashes Your Tank ! You're infinitely slower than the Ishtar or Gila. Ishtar has t2 resists, Gila gets a resist bonus. Domi is not alot cheaper than an Ishtar atm. About the only reason to choose it atm is that it's a bit cheaper , And, it can fit large neuts and guns. However, it will do that less than half as well vs the geddon so why bother ?
Under 40 k, Geddon hits you with drones, neuts and torps. 40-80k it can run a single drone augmentor and use cruise. Domi can ....... ? Not an eft wizard but unless you can get a full rack of 1400's on it, it's useless.
When it was the Only BS drone boat it was versatile and dynamic. Now that it's the Galente Sniper Battle Ship it just sucks. And it doesn't need a +10% bonus to range to do it.
Marlona could speak more knowledgeably, but IIRC NC used sentry Ishtars vs Goon's once. Not twice, just once. That should say Alot about how sentry sniping is gonna work as a doctrine or tactic.
tbh carriers need a separate drone bay from fighter bay.... the drone bay should be limited to 1000m3, fighter bay should allow up to max 15 fighters... the fact that you can hold so many drones in the carrier is rather silly... the fact that fighters are not used in pvp anymore proves this...
say about fighters... how about a way to boost them they can get limited fittings... stuff like auto armor/shield reps and speed /damage mods...
plus domi is a bs so it could fit mjd and target breaker... something a gila cant. if they made drones not disconnect if you warp around plus added small and medium sentry drones (i would love to see these btw) the sentry domi fleet concept might not be a bad idea.
like you warp in the domi's at a good angle and they deploy the sentries then they hit the mjd and get nice and close to the enemy ships in the bubble... they then go disco or nuet/nos or close range rr and tackle and clean up... and if you have to you can allways abandon the sentries and drop the heavies...
it would be cool if you could reactivate abandoned drones like you can probes.... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
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Rina Kondur
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:26:00 -
[921] - Quote
I really think it's time to see the days of active tanking bonuses go away. They really aren't viable on ships much larger than a cruiser. You can promote and encourage solo PvP and ships meant for it as much as you'd like, but the truth of EVE is that it's never solo.
Replace the Hyperion's outdated active bonus and bring it in line with the other ships by giving it a 4% resist bonus to armor. Give it some kind of range bonus to make blasters on Galente hulls viable and most importantly give Galente a ship that you can form a doctrine around. The Megathron is great, but suffers from a severe range issue much like the current Hyperion.
Please listen to the players on this one, most of us don't want active tanked bonuses. They just don't work. Keep active bonuses and this ship will remain on the shelf like it has been for years. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:26:00 -
[922] - Quote
fukier wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:fukier wrote: still saying the bonus for the domi should be this:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage , Drone hitpoints , Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed +5% to drone activation range and sentry drone damage
Again NO NO NO double drone damage bonus one of them focusing on sentry drones talk about Pigeon holing a ship to use a single drone type. dont think you get how good the domi would be if that were its bonuses...
I get it and no ship should be at its best using a single drone type.
ShahFluffers wrote: - When using sentries you aren't moving (unless you are willing to lose your sentries). The extra mobility that the Domi has over the Geddon is lost.
This is your choice you are not in siege or triage you do not have a bridge open and i'm guna go as far to say you don't have a cyno open either nothing that gives you -100% to speed I an getting tired of this " you aren't moving " crap because of sentries.
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
No, the biggest problem with the domi is the drones...
-Arazel
No the biggest problem with the domi is the afore mentioned statement of you aren't moving and that is down to the pilots having an averse attachment to their drones.
I would love to see you so attached to your drones if a dread drops in and starts blaping your perfectly still domi. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:28:00 -
[923] - Quote
Rina Kondur wrote:I really think it's time to see the days of active tanking bonuses go away. They really aren't viable on ships much larger than cruiser. You can promote and encourage solo PvP and ships meant for it as much as you'd like, but the truth of EVE is that it's never solo.
Replace the Hyperion's outdated active bonus and bring it in line with the other ships by giving it a 4% resist bonus to armor. Give it some kind of range bonus to make blasters on Galente hulls viable and most importantly give Galente a ship that you can form a doctrine around. The Megathron is great, but suffers from a severe range issue much like the current Hyperion.
Please listen to the players on this one, most of us don't want active tanked bonuses. They just don't work. Keep active bonuses and this ship will remain on the shelf like it has been for years. I agree, and I think many others do too, that it's time for active tanking bonuses built into ship hulls to go away. I think instead CCP should just integrate a repair bonus into a new rig module so that any armor pilot can choose to enhance his or her active tank if that suits his or her playstyle.
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fukier
902
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:32:00 -
[924] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:
I get it and no ship should be at its best using a single drone type.
why not?
some ships are the best with blasters. some with beams some with pulse some with arties...
why not make a ship that good with sentries?
anywho those bonus i already said would be op on a tech I ship... but not on a revamped Sin.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Garresh
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:32:00 -
[925] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly? I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big. What about our promised Res bonus thread? >=[ Also people are a lot happier about the other bs's so its normal for him to comment more here. A lot happier? Checked minamtar thread? Basically not a single post of approvement. The only uniform complaint in that thread seems to be about sig nerfs to the pest & phoon. Few have realized how insane the phoon now is (despite promised missile changes), and how strong the Tempest is.
Its not about viability. Its about racial identity. New phoon is very strong but it feels like an armor variant of a caldari ship. We don't want a raven. We want a phoon and we'll accept some nerfs to get it. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7420
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:34:00 -
[926] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:I think instead CCP should just integrate a repair bonus into a new rig module so that any armor pilot can choose to enhance his or her active tank if that suits his or her playstyle.
I realize this is supposed to be a witty joke but the rig that does that isn't even half as effective as the hull bonus mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:35:00 -
[927] - Quote
fukier wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:
I get it and no ship should be at its best using a single drone type.
why not? some ships are the best with blasters. some with beams some with pulse some with arties... why not make a ship that good with sentries? anywho those bonus i already said would be op on a tech I ship... but not on a revamped Sin. Do you feel a single type of drone retains comparable advantages and versatility to a single type of turret? |
Chris Avce
Trojan Legion Fidelas Constans
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:43:00 -
[928] - Quote
Quote from CCP Rise:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
i like this i also think if you are increasing the optimal range of drones then you should really improve the ability of the dommi to target out as far as they can hit and maybe a +20km ship/role bonus to the activation range so @ max skills its 80 rather than 60km so it enables sniping sentry users to use there drones whilst not sacrificing to many high slots that can be used for remote reps/en trans and / or neutralizers
ps i loved my dommi back when i first started out |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2177
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:45:00 -
[929] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:ShahFluffers wrote: - When using sentries you aren't moving (unless you are willing to lose your sentries). The extra mobility that the Domi has over the Geddon is lost.
This is your choice you are not in siege or triage you do not have a bridge open and i'm guna go as far to say you don't have a cyno open either nothing that gives you -100% to speed I an getting tired of this " you aren't moving " crap because of sentries. ... ... the biggest problem with the domi is the afore mentioned statement of you aren't moving and that is down to the pilots having an averse attachment to their drones. Maybe that's because you can't stockpile drones in your dronebay like you can ammo in your cargohold. If you lose 5 heavy/sentry drones in a Dominix... it hurts. You only have enough drone space for 2 extra sets of heavy/sentry drones... but realistically you only carry 1 extra set because you need light drones "just in case." Consciously losing drones left and right as a tactic is not what I consider very smart (nor cheap). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
chris elliot
EG CORP Talocan United
163
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:45:00 -
[930] - Quote
Been fiddling with the changes a bit and I really really do hope you guys up at CCP don't wreck the Gallente hacs and t3's as bad as you are wrecking the battleships.
I mean, with Ytterbium having a massive hate on for them they probably will be completely useless to the point of recycling them and buying amarr or minmatar but one can at least hope you leave us gallente pilots with SOMETHING decent/competitive for fleet combat besides.... erm... the talos maybe? |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
833
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:54:00 -
[931] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:ShahFluffers wrote: - When using sentries you aren't moving (unless you are willing to lose your sentries). The extra mobility that the Domi has over the Geddon is lost.
This is your choice you are not in siege or triage you do not have a bridge open and i'm guna go as far to say you don't have a cyno open either nothing that gives you -100% to speed I an getting tired of this " you aren't moving " crap because of sentries. ... ... the biggest problem with the domi is the afore mentioned statement of you aren't moving and that is down to the pilots having an averse attachment to their drones. Maybe that's because you can't stockpile drones in your dronebay like you can ammo in your cargohold. If you lose 5 heavy/sentry drones in a Dominix... it hurts. You only have enough drone space for 2 extra sets of heavy/sentry drones... but realistically you only carry 1 extra set because you need light and utility drones "just in case." Consciously losing drones left and right as a tactic is not what I consider very smart (nor cheap). I might be asking for a bit much here, but 1k drone bay for the Dominix would leave plenty of utility and offensive room for drones. I guess I kind of think of drone ships like a tool box, but right now you can only fit 3 screwdrivers in the whole thing. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Nalha Saldana
Sickology
705
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:55:00 -
[932] - Quote
I don't really understand the choice of having the combat ship with active tank bonus when the main benefit of active armor tank is maintained speed, agility and low sig. Shouldn't the Hyperion be the attack ship or the Megathron get the active bonus?
Actually I'd say skip the active tank bonus and give the Hype a % armor amount bonus. |
Zaffzaff
Posthuman Society 10110001100111101000
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 23:59:00 -
[933] - Quote
Great, glad to see we aren't completely sold on ruining the few ships in the Gallente line that aren't terrible...so when are you gonna fix local armor and rails? |
Janice Endashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:05:00 -
[934] - Quote
chris elliot wrote:Been fiddling with the changes a bit and I really really do hope you guys up at CCP don't wreck the Gallente hacs and t3's as bad as you are wrecking the battleships.
I mean, with Ytterbium having a massive hate on for them they probably will be completely useless to the point of recycling them and buying amarr or minmatar but one can at least hope you leave us gallente pilots with SOMETHING decent/competitive for fleet combat besides.... erm... the talos maybe?
Just watch Out! Ccp Rise has his nerf bat out and that Ishtar of yours looks like a juicy target. |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:06:00 -
[935] - Quote
Hi Rise,
Here's an idea. How about giving the Domi the Geddons neut/nos bonus and giving the Geddon the drone optimal ?
This works for 2 reasons. The Geddon can use cruise to hit at long range and the extra high for a Drone Aug. Close up, torps and drones.
The Neut/Nos bonus would make the Domi a bit OP, Exxcept, it's got Alot less pg than the Geddon. There's no way it could fit a full rack of neuts and the cap injectors to perma them for very long. If anyone tried they'd DIAF because they'd have no tank. It would be nasty for sure, but with the reduced pg and cap you'd have to make serious trade off's between neuting power and tank. And this would fit well with the Domi's long reputation of being a close to mid range brawler. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
194
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:06:00 -
[936] - Quote
Janice Endashi wrote:chris elliot wrote:Been fiddling with the changes a bit and I really really do hope you guys up at CCP don't wreck the Gallente hacs and t3's as bad as you are wrecking the battleships.
I mean, with Ytterbium having a massive hate on for them they probably will be completely useless to the point of recycling them and buying amarr or minmatar but one can at least hope you leave us gallente pilots with SOMETHING decent/competitive for fleet combat besides.... erm... the talos maybe? Just watch Out! Ccp Rise has his nerf bat out and that Ishtar of yours looks like a juicy target.
I love the Ishtar. I really do. But I don't think nerfing it is high on CCP's list of priorities at the moment. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |
IceDe4d
Kath's Menagerie Gank for Profit
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:09:00 -
[937] - Quote
In my opinion the mega is no hit and run ship because of a lot reasons, first of all your nice mobility buff only works in pvp with a mwd and if you get scramed you are ****** anyway and stuck no way out. Most of your enemys will run a scram and a web and we even have more ships now that got a scram range or web range bonus. People should realise that you fly a heavy blaster battleship that should be able to fit a good armor tank with a lot of damage thats the role of the ship you cant compare it to every other shipclass that would be a big mistake. The mega should keep the 5 heavy drones and the 7 blaster 8 high slot layout apart from that 5 mids would be awesome and it should keep 7 lows too make it fair compared to the raven in my opinion. About the bonus of the ship im not rly sure but i guess its need to be changed.
btw dont destroy the mega its my second favorite ship in eve and i use it a lot for low sec pvp.
PS: PLS FIX ASTARTE !!! |
Jessie K Jepsen
Unicorn Mafia Squad
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:32:00 -
[938] - Quote
This must be an April Fools Joke right?
The Mega is ok as it is and your "changes" are just going to ruin the ship for good and put in on the shelf!
Please listen to us and stop this.
Not happy to hear this. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7420
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:33:00 -
[939] - Quote
Janice Endashi wrote:chris elliot wrote:Been fiddling with the changes a bit and I really really do hope you guys up at CCP don't wreck the Gallente hacs and t3's as bad as you are wrecking the battleships.
I mean, with Ytterbium having a massive hate on for them they probably will be completely useless to the point of recycling them and buying amarr or minmatar but one can at least hope you leave us gallente pilots with SOMETHING decent/competitive for fleet combat besides.... erm... the talos maybe? Just watch Out! Ccp Rise has his nerf bat out and that Ishtar of yours looks like a juicy target.
it's already been established that drone boats aren't "competitive for fleet combat" mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:37:00 -
[940] - Quote
Andski wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:I think instead CCP should just integrate a repair bonus into a new rig module so that any armor pilot can choose to enhance his or her active tank if that suits his or her playstyle. I realize this is supposed to be a witty joke but the rig that does that isn't even half as effective as the hull bonus It actually wasn't intended as a witty joke, Andski. The point behind it is instead of shoehorning active armor tanking down our throats, without the tools to make them shine, actively-tanked armor ships are going to fall behind. Buffing the rig/making one that supplements the other one, so that a pilot can choose active armor tanking via rigging the ship frees up the active tank bonuses to some that really matter and could have some impact to fleet/buffer/remote rep situations.
It was tongue-in-cheek, but I think the concept of active armor tanking through rigs/reworked modules has merit. Or any ship with a measurable amount of mid slots will just use multiple stacked ASBs. :S
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SamuelK
The Concilium Enterprises Extinction Level Event.
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:46:00 -
[941] - Quote
Leave. My. Mega. Alone.
Kick that dumb Hyperion rep bonus out and add a tracking bonus. Don't mess with my Megathron. Nerf the drones down to 75 ban but leave the bay the same size. Don't mess with my Megathron. Slot lay out 8/3/8 Don't mess with my Megathron. Give it a hit point buff. Don't mess with my Megathron.
DO. NOT. MESS. WITH. MY. MEGA.
|
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Unclaimed.
218
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:55:00 -
[942] - Quote
The problem with giving the Hyperion a resistance bonus is that it won't solve anything. It will merely turn the Hyperion into a short-range Abaddon. There will still be no reason to use it over an Abaddon in a fleet. If it gains sufficient damage output, damage projection, and/or tank to be more useful than an Abaddon or a Rokh, then it will render one or both ships obsolete. Making one ship useful by obsoleting another is not good design practice.
Instead, the Hyperion should excel at something that the other three factions' fleet battleships do not. Lack of a resistance bonus in itself is not fatal to a fleet ship; the Maelstrom and the Tempest are prime examples.
This all assumes that every faction should have a fleet-doctrine battleship. There's no real reason for why this should be, and it seems to be coming out of a misguided search for symmetry where none needs to exist. I'm not sure why the Hyperion cannot receive some minor tweaks to make it an excellent solo/small gang platform.
+
The proposals for moving sentry drones are interesting, but may make heavy drones and fighters almost wholly obsolete. Currently, sentries, heavy drones, and fighters all compete against one another for the anti-battleship drone role. The higher dps and tracking of heavy drones and fighters relative to sentries compensates for their long travel time, and makes them superior to sentries in engagements of under 10km, or where the ship cannot remain in one position. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:04:00 -
[943] - Quote
fukier wrote: anywho those bonus i already said would be op on a tech I ship... but not on a revamped Sin.
That is why I said NO NO NO lets keep it to realistic sugestions.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Do you feel a single type of drone retains comparable advantages and versatility to a single type of turret?
No but to give a ship ( a tech 1 ship at that ) a bonus to drones then to sentries as I have stated before Pigeon hole's a ship and its load out as people always want all the bonuses unless its an off the wall fitting ( and i'm more for off the wall fittings than cookie cutter exact copies of one another ) and giving the domi an exact bonus to sentries over an overall drone bonus is taking creativity away from people the fittings may differ slightly but the drone load outs will always remain the same. Actually scratch that fittings will more than likely be exact copies as well creativity on the whole in eve is dead.
ShahFluffers wrote: Maybe that's because you can't stockpile drones in your dronebay like you can ammo in your cargohold. If you lose 5 heavy/sentry drones in a Dominix... it hurts. You only have enough drone space for 2 extra sets of heavy/sentry drones... but realistically you only carry 1 extra set because you need light and utility drones "just in case." Consciously losing drones (and thus DPS) left and right as a tactic is not what I consider very smart (nor cheap).
No you can not stockpile drones but then again you should have a finite amount of drones like ammo, cap boosters and so on its the pilots choice to load what drones they want if you want 3 flights of heavy / sentry drones that is your choice like your choice is what 2 flights of heavy or sentry drones and the rest of your space for whatever else. You also have the ability to scoop to drone bay on any un owned drones of the dead or abandoned drones on field assuming you are with others in a fleet. And if you quote doctrine at me I may just virtually slap you that is your corp, alliance and your own decision to follow.
Omnathious Deninard wrote: I might be asking for a bit much here, but 1k drone bay for the Dominix would leave plenty of utility and offensive room for drones. I guess I kind of think of drone ships like a tool box, but right now you can only fit 3 screwdrivers in the whole thing.
Yeah think 1000m3 of drone space on a domi is OTT perhaps 400m3 is a more realistic goal. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3342
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:05:00 -
[944] - Quote
Arazel Chainfire wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Truth be told the biggest problem with the Dominix, is the Armageddon. No, the biggest problem with the domi is the drones... -Arazel No, the biggest problem with the domi is the ship model...
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:08:00 -
[945] - Quote
Alice Katsuko wrote:The problem with giving the Hyperion a resistance bonus is that it won't solve anything. It will merely turn the Hyperion into a short-range Abaddon. There will still be no reason to use it over an Abaddon in a fleet. If it gains sufficient damage output, damage projection, and/or tank to be more useful than an Abaddon or a Rokh, then it will render one or both ships obsolete. Making one ship useful by obsoleting another is not good design practice.
Well, except for the fact the abaddon does its dps at useful ranges and with good tracking at said ranges. It wouldn't be obsolete because the hyperion would remain useless for fleets with blasters fitted. You need to be able to apply dps in the range of 30-60km+ in fleets. Rails are the only viable hybrid option. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:12:00 -
[946] - Quote
Thinking a bit more about the domi concerns compared to the armageddon, they mostly are : - mid slots are worthless ; - PG is good ; - CPU is worthless ; - speed/mobility is worthless ; - neutralizers are king ; - armor is the only worthy tank stat (BTW, 500 armor translate into ~4kehp... a 200mm plate...) This is clearly an amarr bias in fact. Considering these concerns, the Dominix *cannot* be good compared to an amarr drone ship, and the only solution would be to wipe out the armageddon and do something else with it.
Yet these qualities fit a lot more the amarr doctrine, so why don't you go to the amarr thread to congratulate CCP for the perfect ship they made for you ?
As for the tracking/optimal bonus, that will allow garde II to hit at 56+12km with one OTLII, with 0,0675 rad/s tracking : this is comparable to pulse abaddon with scorch. |
Loki Vice
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:12:00 -
[947] - Quote
CCP rise, you suck, quit touching ships go back to "bringing solo back" in a game where solo realistically doesn't exist.
Fozzie please help us, everything you touched is pure bliss, but this ****, **** this ****. If i want a shield ship, i'm not going to ******* fly gallente, if I want a dominix, i'm going to fly a ******* dominix not this ****** ass armageddon.
CCP rise, how you convinced anyone that you know what you're talking about is ******* beyond me |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:18:00 -
[948] - Quote
Alice Katsuko wrote:This all assumes that every faction should have a fleet-doctrine battleship. There's no real reason for why this should be, and it seems to be coming out of a misguided search for symmetry where none needs to exist. I'm not sure why the Hyperion cannot receive some minor tweaks to make it an excellent solo/small gang platform. Well, honestly, that mindset stems because CCP is pushing more for specialization, and specialization, to CCP, extends not just toward T2 hull specialization, but race specialization as well.
When looking through this lens, there is a hole for "hybrid/armor" (Gallente) boats in fleet doctrines. And before someone says "Oh well Domi is the intended fleet ship for Gallente rabble rabble rabble!" let me remind you that of the Battleship-hulled drone boats, the Geddon is the better of the two, and those longer range neuts and capless missile/projectile fits are going to help neut out tacklers, etc., in addition to being a fierce dps platform with comparable tracking to a Domi with the addition of a couple of OTLs in its newly made available 4 midslots.
There is a demand, there, to be sure. But I think shoving the Dominix into that role is a mistake. I'd much rather see the Mega or Hype fit into the fleet doctrine by giving them an advantage on mobility (50% quicker MJD spool or something similar) to let them--ffs--get into range to open up hellfire from those neutron blaster cannons. Or give them, as some have suggested, a stacking armor HP buff (to limit the amount of plates needed, which is an increase in mobility). The last option, however, doesn't really address the strength of the resist bonus in Logi supported gangs and fleets, as well as the built-in buff resist bonuses serve to local active tanks, as well. |
Janice Endashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:36:00 -
[949] - Quote
Loki Vice wrote:CCP rise, you suck, quit touching ships go back to "bringing solo back" in a game where solo realistically doesn't exist.
Fozzie please help us, everything you touched is pure bliss, but this ****, **** this ****. If i want a shield ship, i'm not going to ******* fly gallente, if I want a dominix, i'm going to fly a ******* dominix not this ****** ass armageddon.
CCP rise, how you convinced anyone that you know what you're talking about is ******* beyond me
Well to be fair Fozzie did deliver the OMGWTFLULZUSELESS GARBAGE that is the AAR. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
552
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:51:00 -
[950] - Quote
Janice Endashi wrote:Loki Vice wrote:CCP rise, you suck, quit touching ships go back to "bringing solo back" in a game where solo realistically doesn't exist.
Fozzie please help us, everything you touched is pure bliss, but this ****, **** this ****. If i want a shield ship, i'm not going to ******* fly gallente, if I want a dominix, i'm going to fly a ******* dominix not this ****** ass armageddon.
CCP rise, how you convinced anyone that you know what you're talking about is ******* beyond me Well to be fair Fozzie did deliver the OMGWTFLULZUSELESS GARBAGE that is the AAR.
AAR is pretty good |
|
Helena Khan
Ministry Of Reverse Engineering
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:52:00 -
[951] - Quote
The proposed Mega changes could be extraordinarily good, though more base speed would be a good thing imho. There is the potential to create a super-thorax like fit which could be used in any number of scenarios as an example.
I'd prefer to see the Mega remain mobile and have a range of options to deal with a changing battlefield, which the extra mid slot provides. Cap issues will be a concern if the ROF bonus is put in place, esp considering AM is usually the go to ammo. Void is worse in that respect.
The Hyperion, however doesn't seem to easily sit anywhere as far as it goes. Again, imho, the Hype would be the better ship in a fleet role. Tough, dependable and with a reasonable ability to force project. You 'd almost be better to retool the Hype and it's bonuses completely and leave the proposed Mega changes in place.
Lastly, EvE needs to change and evolve. Nothing is static. Not the game and not we, as capsuleers. The Mega is essentially my favorite hull, and while the tweaking and changes make me a wee bit twitchy, I can see the need for it to happen.
If you want CCP to take our feedback seriously, I'd suggest dialling back the bluster and carry on for those of you shrieking at the top of your lungs, and put forward your suggestions calmly and logically. Change is inevitable. Get used to it. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:54:00 -
[952] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:
AAR is pretty good
It's reasonable, for a t1 item. The problem is that everyone compares to the ASB lineup, which is a t1 item more on par with the tankability of dead space shield boosters. IF ASB were more heavily nerfed and t2 and meta versions of aar and asb became available I think allot of the issues would solve themselves.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:00:00 -
[953] - Quote
Helena Khan wrote:The proposed Mega changes could be extraordinarily good, though more base speed would be a good thing imho. There is the potential to create a super-thorax like fit which could be used in any number of scenarios as an example.
I'd prefer to see the Mega remain mobile and have a range of options to deal with a changing battlefield, which the extra mid slot provides. Cap issues will be a concern if the ROF bonus is put in place, esp considering AM is usually the go to ammo. Void is worse in that respect.
The mega's old proposed slot layout is 8-5-6. That is as flawd as a BS's slot layout can get - just ask today's Hyperion. The wasted bonus isn't why no one uses one - the Mael has the same bonus. The reason is the slot layout making it impossible to armor or shield buffer well.
A solid shield buffer requires about 6 mids - 5 for tank + a low for the damage control. A solid armor buffer requires the same, but as the damage control is also occupying a low, this becomes 7 lows. 5 mids means either a weak shield tank or no prop mod, and 6 lows means either a weak armor tank or no damage mods. The only way to skim some slots is to give a ship a resist bonus.
8-5-6 doesn't allow a solid tank in any slot. It makes a ship into a jack of all trades, master of none. This is a flaw in ship design, as good flexible ships can fill multiple roles WELL depending on fitting. There is a reason people don't mix guns or tanks - specialization is the only way to succeed.
Now, if they wanted the mega to shield tank, drop a high and a low and make it 7-6-5. If they want it to armor tank on the level of other race's line DPS battleships, buff its base armor and make it 7-4-8 or don't alter its slot layout. In either case, give it a whole lot more than 25 more CPU. But for the love of god don't try and make it into a "this ship can shield tank or armor tank!" boat. That is the fast lane to failure. See: Hyperion. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:04:00 -
[954] - Quote
My attempt at the domi change now before the flame and rage I have been at this a few mins and admit refinement will be needed by someone who has not been up over 24 hours and has been getting drunk for the last 4 hours.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +7.5% Drone optimal range
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7300(+1831) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5350(+350) / 1080s / 4.77 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 112 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 425 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 96 / 6 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 468(+48)
Trying to be constructive here although i fell rage and flam coming on god help me |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2177
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:04:00 -
[955] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:ShahFluffers wrote: Maybe that's because you can't stockpile drones in your dronebay like you can ammo in your cargohold. If you lose 5 heavy/sentry drones in a Dominix... it hurts. You only have enough drone space for 2 extra sets of heavy/sentry drones... but realistically you only carry 1 extra set because you need light and utility drones "just in case." Consciously losing drones (and thus DPS) left and right as a tactic is not what I consider very smart (nor cheap).
No you can not stockpile drones but then again you should have a finite amount of drones like ammo, cap boosters and so on its the pilots choice to load what drones they want if you want 3 flights of heavy / sentry drones that is your choice like your choice is what 2 flights of heavy or sentry drones and the rest of your space for whatever else. You also have the ability to scoop to drone bay on any un owned drones of the dead or abandoned drones on field assuming you are with others in a fleet. And if you quote doctrine at me I may just virtually slap you that is your corp, alliance and your own decision to follow.
I am merely countering that whatever mobility advantage the Dominix has over the Armageddon is lost because it isn't a good idea to throw away HALF your DPS with only 1 "reload" (and yes, moving away from sentry drones is as good as throwing them away unless you are in close quarters combat and/or are fast). Not wanting to leave behind drones while in a droneship isn't "averse attachment"... it's a matter of being a viable combat ship over the long haul. Cap boosters and ammo may also be finite... but they don't get left behind or limit your tactical options just because you move.
As far scooping abandoned drones... yes, you can do that... but not when when "sniping" and/or at range (which is a tactic that many people seem to be stuck on for the Dominix). The only reason I "quote" this "doctrine" is because it perfectly illustrates the problem that sentry drones (and by extension drone battleships) have... that drone battleships are simply not mobile.
This is digressing from my main concern though.
As it stands right now... the new Armageddon is both too similar and, in some respects, better than the Dominix in most situations. This doesn't sit well with me. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:08:00 -
[956] - Quote
IceDe4d wrote:
PS: PLS FIX ASTARTE !!!
I second this, Command ships are FAR FAR FAR more broke than any of the T1 BS were. ATM All commands other than sleipnir and claymore have 1 less total slot than t1 BCs.
I think it's reasonable to assume that they will be receiving a slot each or be mauraderfied, in the sense that the number of guns will be reduced combined with a large damage bonus making up for the lost dps. This would then open up utility highs for the usage of Gang links w/o totally shitifying your combat capabilities. Such a change is going to be necessary if On grid boosting is to go live.
|
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:10:00 -
[957] - Quote
T1 battleships please.
What is the fleet doctrine for the megathron and Hyperion. If there is none, what should it be? |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
639
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:11:00 -
[958] - Quote
These changes fix nothing, the Dominix and Mega were considered very good for battleships and are now infeirior at what they were good at.
The Hyperion was considered **** and is now more ****.
Battleships as a class need to be rethought.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:14:00 -
[959] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:T1 battleships please.
What is the fleet doctrine for the megathron and Hyperion. If there is none, what should it be?
Simple: Armor hybrid platform.
Right now there are 2 viable shield doctrine backbones and 1 viable armor doctrine backbone among BSes. Making either capable of line DPS balances that out.
In order to fill the role, either ship would need to be capable of hitting roughly 120k EHP with all resists around 70, using rails.
This doesn't mean specialize either ship into rails - it just means make fitting them possible. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:20:00 -
[960] - Quote
Askulf Joringer / IceDe4d
PS: PLS FIX ASTARTE !!!
Please don't.
ATM Damnation & Abso will get an AOE DD bonus and Astarte/Eos will get an optimal range bonus to Fireworks and Snowballs.
Lets fix one disaster at a time before we get into another mk. |
|
mine mi
Hispania Armored Forces
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:24:00 -
[961] - Quote
i like to see this ser up
Hyperion
Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 7 turrets
Bonus
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% large hybrid weapon damage +7.5% 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount of armor repair
Why so many media? because she needs to do almost everything
ECM - cap boost for local rep - micro jump - tackle - target braker to avoid focus fire.
the only way to make it viable,is to convert the fleet fight, in 1 vs 1
|
Helena Khan
Ministry Of Reverse Engineering
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:25:00 -
[962] - Quote
The mega's old proposed slot layout is 8-5-6. That is as flawed as a BS' slot layout can get - just ask today's Hyperion.
If you want to shoehorn a ship into one role, and one role only ask for bonuses which suit that one role sure. But I don't believe that you can look at the layout in isolation in any case. The other qualities of the ship come into play, as well as its fittings.
Part of the issues with the Hyperion revolved around its bonuses to AR, the lack of range of blasters and what was truly anemic damage of railguns. That, and a healthly dose of can't move very fast at all even under MWD meaning damage application was dubious at best.
So... and you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, you want a line battleship for Gallente. Imho the Hype would be the better ship to change for that purpose and leave the Mega in the fast attack role. Speed and high DPS at the cost of some durability. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:28:00 -
[963] - Quote
Helena Khan wrote:The mega's old proposed slot layout is 8-5-6. That is as flawed as a BS' slot layout can get - just ask today's Hyperion.
If you want to shoehorn a ship into one role, and one role only ask for bonuses which suit that one role sure. But I don't believe that you can look at the layout in isolation in any case. The other qualities of the ship come into play, as well as its fittings.
Part of the issues with the Hyperion revolved around its bonuses to AR, the lack of range of blasters and what was truly anemic damage of railguns. That, and a healthly dose of can't move very fast at all even under MWD meaning damage application was dubious at best.
So... and you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, you want a line battleship for Gallente. Imho the Hype would be the better ship to change for that purpose and leave the Mega in the fast attack role. Speed and high DPS at the cost of some durability.
Read this. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:35:00 -
[964] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Tennessee Jack wrote:T1 battleships please.
What is the fleet doctrine for the megathron and Hyperion. If there is none, what should it be? Simple: Armor hybrid platform. Right now there are 2 viable shield doctrine backbones and 1 viable armor doctrine backbone among BSes. Making either capable of line DPS balances that out. In order to fill the role, either ship would need to be capable of hitting roughly 120k EHP with all resists around 75, using rails. This doesn't mean specialize either ship into rails - it just means make fitting them possible.
I can see the megathron doing this. It's what it should be doing regardless.
The Hyperion..... Needs work. It should be able to hit with void ammo, at 20k optimal before mods, and out to 35 with mods.
After that, needs a way to survive in a fire too. Can't do a sensor damp bonus cause then it won't track worth a damn.
No answers atm
Range of guns is a issue Tank is a issue Speed is an issue The repair bonus is a issue.
Just give the ship 3000 extra hp per armor repairer on it. Have 3 armor reps, 9000 more armor. Smaller repairers give smaller armor bonus 1500 and 400 respectively, |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:35:00 -
[965] - Quote
Helena Khan wrote:The mega's old proposed slot layout is 8-5-6. That is as flawed as a BS' slot layout can get - just ask today's Hyperion. Doesn't the tempest also have that layout? |
Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
194
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:38:00 -
[966] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Here's my in depth analysis of the problem regarding Gallente Battleships.
I will focus on one of the most important roles, if not the primary role, of Battleships - Fleet Line DPS. I say this because Battleships are far too vulnerable to smaller ships to be viable solo, and are of limited use in small gang engagements, where they are outshined by Battlecruisers in most aspects. Their roles basically boil down to fleet warfare and PvE.
.... So, CCP, all I ask of you is this: let Gallente have a line DPS Battleship. Please.
On battleships, while non-droneboats are vulnerable to small ships, drone bonused ones are not.
A Dominix is presently a nightmare for an Enyo duo that would melt a Megathron in short order. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:42:00 -
[967] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Helena Khan wrote:The mega's old proposed slot layout is 8-5-6. That is as flawed as a BS' slot layout can get - just ask today's Hyperion. Doesn't the tempest also have that layout?
And I ask you - when is the last time you saw someone using a Tempest seriously for PvP?
The best I've seen a Tempest do is a really light artillery platform. It is absurdly niche and not even the best in that role. Freaking Muninns do it better. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:49:00 -
[968] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Helena Khan wrote:The mega's old proposed slot layout is 8-5-6. That is as flawed as a BS' slot layout can get - just ask today's Hyperion. Doesn't the tempest also have that layout? And I ask you - when is the last time you saw someone using a Tempest seriously for PvP? The best I've seen a Tempest do is a really light artillery platform. It is absurdly niche and not even the best in that role. Freaking Muninns do it better. I don't PvP much so my answer wouldn't be terribly relevant, but I'm not seeing near the complaints of the ship being just plain terrible that I'm seeing of the proposed megathron or current hyperion. If the layout was such a strong contributing factor why wasn't there such strong negative feedback for it?
Was it there and I missed it? Was it because the Maelstrom still provided a viable fleet worthy alternative? Was it that the ship really isn't bad but isn't a fleet go to (which for being an individual ship in the BS line isn't a failure)? |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:56:00 -
[969] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Helena Khan wrote:The mega's old proposed slot layout is 8-5-6. That is as flawed as a BS' slot layout can get - just ask today's Hyperion. Doesn't the tempest also have that layout? And I ask you - when is the last time you saw someone using a Tempest seriously for PvP? The best I've seen a Tempest do is a really light artillery platform. It is absurdly niche and not even the best in that role. Freaking Muninns do it better. I don't PvP much so my answer wouldn't be terribly relevant, but I'm not seeing near the complaints of the ship being just plain terrible that I'm seeing of the proposed megathron or current hyperion. If the layout was such a strong contributing factor why wasn't there such strong negative feedback for it? Was it there and I missed it? Was it because the Maelstrom still provided a viable fleet worthy alternative? Was it that the ship really isn't bad but isn't a fleet go to (which for being an individual ship in the BS line isn't a failure)?
1) The Mael was the fleet ship for Minmatar (which could also do small gangs), meaning the other two BSes could do whatever. They often found niche roles, like smartbombing platforms, were used in small gangs for whatever role, and were used in PvE. Nothing was riding on it.
2) The Hyperion is the only tier 3 Gallente BS. Because it has the **** layout, it isn't viable for any of the things every other tier 3 BS can do. The only fleet viable BS Gallente has currently is the Megathron (it has a good layout), but because of the tier system, its stats are WAY below par. Tiericide is an opportunity to fix this. They decided to make the problem worse instead, by LOWERING the relevant stats on the Megathron while simultaneously giving it the gimptastic layout. Hence page 49. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
637
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:05:00 -
[970] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: 1) The Mael was the fleet ship for Minmatar (which could also do small gangs), meaning the other two BSes could do whatever. They often found niche roles, like smartbombing platforms, were used in small gangs for whatever role, and were used in PvE. Nothing was riding on it.
2) The Hyperion is the only tier 3 Gallente BS. Because it has the **** layout, it wasn't viable for any of the things every other tier 3 BS could do. The only fleet viable BS Gallente has currently is the Megathron (it has a good layout), but because of the tier system, its stats were WAY below par. Tiericide is an opportunity to fix this. They decided to make the problem worse instead, by LOWERING the relevant stats on the Megathron while simultaneously giving it the gimptastic layout. Hence page 49.
I won't dispute the idea that given the envisioned roles the Megathron makes the best candidate for a fleet BS, but per the original question, if the role fits why such angst about the layout? Even in your response, though you downplay it you acknowledge the tempest found a role and still left the role of fleet BS filled by the mael. That being the case the layout is situationally workable if not benificial.
But of course that won't be the case for a line BS, but I don't think that was what they were going for on this pass with the megathron. |
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
343
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:09:00 -
[971] - Quote
-1 on changes to Domi.
The drone optimal and tracking bonuses are only of significant benefit to sentries, and we don't all use only sentries.
Also, we don't all fly only in fleets.
The existing hybrid bonus, plus the drone bonus, makes the Domi into one of the best multi-role solo & small gang PVE and PVP ships. Flexibility is the major advantage of this ship, and now you propose to take this away in favor of making it into a one-trick (fleet sentry) lame pony.
Bad idea.
Rather than breaking one of the few old ships that actually works in-game, why don't you use it as the model for fixing the other ships? |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
77
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:11:00 -
[972] - Quote
Maybe someone else has said this, but I'll say it too.
Hyperion - Combat Megathron - Attack Dominix - Disruption via Sensor dampening and/or tracking disruption
At least, that's the way I see it. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:14:00 -
[973] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: I won't dispute the idea that given the envisioned roles the (current) Megathron makes the best candidate for a fleet BS, but per the original question, if the role fits why such angst about the layout? Even in your response, though you downplay it, you acknowledge the tempest found a role and still left the role of fleet BS filled by the mael. That being the case the layout is situationally workable if not benificial.
But of course that won't be the case for a line BS, but I don't think that was what they were going for on this pass with the megathron.
That's the problem. They still don't have a line BS, and need one. Hopefully they'll have one tomorrow.
Regarding the general dislike of the layout even outside the line BS role, it is simply weak. A solid Battleship tank involves 5 modules, plus one lowslot for the damage control. This means it requires, at a minimum:
6 Mids (5 for tank, 1 for prop mod)
or
7 Lows (5 for tank, 1 for DC, at least 1 for damage mods)
Ships with resist bonuses get to cut one mod out of the equation, bringing the minimums to 5 mids or 6 lows.
Now, the 8-5-6 layout makes fleet combat impossible, meaning tackle is probably going to be needed too on any fit. This means, either the ship has NO damage mods and an armor tank, or it has a weak armor tank with damage mods, or it has an INCREDIBLY weak (1-2 module!) shield tank with tackle. None of the above are good. People would fly different ships for the roles it could fill. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Loki Vice
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:16:00 -
[974] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I must say, you guys do have a theatrical flair.
Look its 10pm and I'm trying to keep caught up on this, but I promise tomorrow we will go back through this Gal lineup and see if we can resolve some of the frustration.
I know I tried to lay out our intentions in the OP, but I want to lay it out again, just to make sure we're on the same page. I understand that many of you here aren't satisfied so we'll go back over it tomorrow and look at our options. In the mean time maybe this will help.
In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.
In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).
The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.
I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.
I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
You're personal experience of flying talos into low-sec and dieing isn't what we need here, give the hyp a range and damage bonus, turn it into a gallente rail platform
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3044
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:19:00 -
[975] - Quote
Wait, is CCP Rise Kil2PvP?
What the ****, CCP? You put your lowsec guy on battleships? FFS put Fozzie on this now. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
McCreary075
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:41:00 -
[976] - Quote
The Dominix has been completely replaced for close-range fleet work by the Armageddon. The Armageddon gets a drone damage bonus and enough space to fit 3 full flights of heavy or sentry drones, plus it gets the neut range bonus.
For close range fleets, the Dominix was the support ship, able to do drone damage and either neut or repair (or some combination). With the Armageddon able to neut from further away, there really isn't a reason to bring a Dominix unless you haven't trained Amarr BS, which isn't really a good reason given how little time it takes to train a BS skill. (Also, you have the support skills you need if you're flying the Dominix so it really is just the Amarr BS skill.)
For sniper fleets, the Dominix can more effectively apply sentry damage now, but sentries are not mobile, so you'd have to abandon them for the standard align-out and snipe jobs, which is not optimal given the drone expense and the fact that you can do this a total of 3 times before you're out of sentries. Also, without a boost to drone control range, the dominix needs two drone link augmentors to take advantage of the longer ranged sentry drones, even without additional modules or rigs. This isn't a deal breaker, but it is something I noticed while fiddling about and doing some math.
If you are in a fleet, you should certainly take the Armageddon over the dominix, and for sniping, I think I'd still prefer the Ishtar because of the extra agility it has over the dominix (I can make it align in under 5 seconds in the Ishtar, which is usually enough time for me to scoop drones and warp out) - the drone control range bonus on the Ishtar doesn't hurt, either. If sentries could move at 100 m/s with max skills, then I think a sniper Dominix could be a great thing.
The tracking on the sentry drones at the optimal ranges they can fire at in the new Dominix is nice. I think that to take advantage of this, people would need to build a gang around this, but the ranges where the tracking/optimal/damage on the sentries is dominant is between 40 and 90 km, maybe more, I'm getting tired. (I worked a lot yesterday and today, cut me some slack!) I still need to think on this some more. The 'mobile' sentries would also be a benefit here.
For the Megathron and Hyperion - I appreciate that you guys were willing to go against the grain and completely rethink them. That kind of approach is needed, but I didn't like the results. |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 03:57:00 -
[977] - Quote
So after some cool down time to digest the information and talk logically about these proposed changes and the flaws in them, here's what I've got. I'll do the Domi first because it seems that CCP is happy with the changes Dominix: -Having a BS purely focused on drones is nice, but it's also disheartening. I think the main issue that people had with the Domi was a PG issue trying to fight those blasters and rails, hence why most people went neut/support domi instead. A little increase in the PG would see more people fitting blasters or rails. -Now that we have 6 utility highs, the most gun dps we're gonna get on a Domi is about 200. This leaves the domi severly lacking in terms of BS DPS, i..e about 700. My vexor can get that much.....This is obviously a pretty glaring issue for me. -The next problem is the sole reliance on drones. Drones get left behind, get smartbombed, popped by frig swarms, etc. If you're forcing the Domi to only rely on drone dps (and the geddon for that matter), then the drone HP bonus should be upped considerably. I would propose something like 20% per lvl to Drone HP.
The new Dominix will be interesting to fly, but I still feel the Geddon will be better in most engagements because of those ranged neuts. That being said, has anyone considered what the optimal range and tracking will do to heavy drones? Will this allow heavies to engage outside of large smartbomb range, or will heavies still be forced to orbit at 2km?
Mega: This ship for me should really be the large fleet ship that every Gallente pilot wants, but for this to happen CCP needs to change the Mega into the other direction. Giving it a 5th mid while taking a low slot is not the way to go. Instead, the Mega should lose that Utility high (I know I love it too, but sacrifices people), keep the proposed new midslot, and get back the earlier proposed loss of a lowslot. This will give the ideal slot layout for the Mega to become a viable large fleet ship. In additon to this, the Mega would need a serious buff to raw HP, PG and CPU to fit those damn railguns. CCP, get on it!
Hype: This ship should be the "attack" BS for the Gallente. A lot of broken promises and fabled lands of working active tanking could make the hype awesome (and the brutix and myrm .....), but promises don't come justly or quickly from our CCP overlords. This ship has a legacy bonus that needs to be looked at, but the idea of it working has excited me for 5 years of playing this game, so maybe one day it will be fixed. That aside, the new Hype should be made faster and more agile thus giving it the ability to get in your face and melt with blasters. It would have the synergy of the new changes to active armor tanking rigs. Drop a turret if need be, but it needs the 5 mids and the additonal lows to tank effectively, especially if this ship is supposed to be used in smaller engagements where every ship having tackel is essential. |
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:04:00 -
[978] - Quote
Hyperion has many Issues
its cap is crappy withouth 5 Med,s its not able to fight in fleet fights with 4 med,s (because to less lock in range) its tank is crappy without 7 low,s its dmg is crappy wihout 7 low,s
general problems
for blaster setup its to bulky and lacks of slots for rail fleet setup it has to less lock on range to bad tracking
so i just see the extra low slot will help (without removing a med) or buff the cap and make the ship faster and give it more lock in range |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:13:00 -
[979] - Quote
Antimatter Launcher wrote:Hyperion has many Issues
its cap is crappy withouth 5 Med,s its not able to fight in fleet fights with 4 med,s (because to less lock in range) its tank is crappy without 7 low,s its dmg is crappy wihout 7 low,s
general problems
for blaster setup its to bulky and lacks of slots for rail fleet setup it has to less lock on range to bad tracking
so i just see the extra low slot will help (without removing a med) or buff the cap and make the ship faster and give it more lock in range
Easy solution is to drop a gun and a high slot, and add a low and 25m3 drone bandwidth.
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:25:00 -
[980] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Askulf Joringer / IceDe4d
PS: PLS FIX ASTARTE !!!
Please don't.
ATM Damnation & Abso will get an AOE DD bonus and Astarte/Eos will get an optimal range bonus to Fireworks and Snowballs.
Lets fix one disaster at a time before we get into another mk.
I know I know, if the current proposals are foreshadowing future changes then I agree, Leave command ships alone However! If a modest amount of logic is to be had, Command ships should at the very least have the same number of total slots as the t1 bcs (-1 rig +1 normal slot), just as the Sleipnir and Claymore do. Astarte with a 7-4-7 layout, 6 turrets, 10% dmg bonus per level (just like Brutix), 5% dmg bonus per level, 10% falloff bonus per level, and 10% rep bonus per level (like the t3s get) would be a massive improvement. If changes like this were to go live, I do not think that Commands t2 resistances should be normalized to the "Fleet Command Level" Instead they should be normalized to the field Command level which is slightly less than the t2 resistance of Hacs and AFs. |
|
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
100
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:28:00 -
[981] - Quote
Meanwhile take a gander at the Caldari thread for some comedic relief. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2862198#post2862198
You see, why should anyone have to train more than one BS line in order to be able to have a ship with each of the three main weapon systems bonused at your disposal? Don't know why that race attracts these kinds of players. |
Femeref
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:35:00 -
[982] - Quote
As an exclusive Gallente pilot, here's my take.
I always thought the Domi lost it's extra slot because of it's double damage bonus, not because it was a drone boat. Like the pest with only 6 turrets, or the phoon having to split it double damage across different weapon systems that used the same slots. If you take away the double damage give it a slot back, I would say low. And because the geddon is both an ewar and drone boat that can be your excuse for not giving it another slot and possibly balance the 2 of them out. This might make the Domi even more versatile.
The idea of an Assault batteship being able to survive to make it back to a gate 35 k off, seems to fit more with the Hype than the Mega because of the rep bonus. In addition because active repping doesn't come with the big velocity and agility nerf, doesn't it seem more sensible to increase the agility and velocity of this ship instead? The idea of the 8/5/6 slot layout with this train of thought and things seem to fit.
That leaves the Mega, which needs to attempt to be both tank and gank, and fleet doctrine. I am not versed in this, but wouldn't moving the utility slot to a low effective give it a boost to either dps, range or tank based on what is fit. That does step on the toes of the Navy Mega, but just give that an 8th turret. And in fleet doctrine, isn't damage bonus better than ROF, so give it the drone back and leave the damage bonus.
|
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:38:00 -
[983] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Easy solution is to drop a gun and a high slot, and add a low and 25m3 drone bandwidth.
no, each faction has a BS with 8 Guns. the hyperion would become a megathron copy with trade of tracking or armor rep bonus. thats non sense |
fukier
903
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:40:00 -
[984] - Quote
i think the mega should be the combat ship and the Hyperion be the attack ship...
i mean look at the hyperion its a giant thruster... it should be fast and active tank rigs dont slow you down so it would go better with the ship bonus...
i would lower the mass of the ship and lower its sig radius and its ehp...
then i would up the damage bonus to 10% per level. also remove one turret high slot but keep the 8th as utility
also i would make the repair bonus also affect the heat bonus of internal reps plus a reduction in the cap activation cost.
so now a large tech II armor rep will take 250 cap to activate.
and on overload with skills at v each armor rep will repair 1966 damage per burst and 241 dps tank before resists.
so now two overheated large armor rep II on a hyperion with two aux pumps and one nano pump will tank 481 dps or with average reist being 71.8 so that means 1715 dps tank... and 1125 dps without drones.
as for the mega i like the rate of fire bonus but i would up it to 7.5% and take away a high slot and replace it with a low. plus i would return the 125 m3 drone bay
now to make this ship a fleet ship it will have to gain mass and a larger sig radius and more ehp...
Also this is controversial but i would replace the tracking bonus with a fall off bonus... to make the ship useful for fleets it needs medium engagement range and 50% bonus to fall off will let this happen you are looking at 860 dps (not including drones) @ 62 km nuetron balsters II with null and two new TE II and one tc II...
i think the talos has stolen the show with the tracking bonus and there is no point in making the mega compete against it cuss it cant... so change the tracking bonus on the mega to a fall off to make there a real choice for gal fleets. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
640
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:44:00 -
[985] - Quote
Shouldn't we rethink battleships as a class?
They are easily countered by things smaller than themselves and their firepower is easily matched by things cheaper.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 04:50:00 -
[986] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:IceDe4d wrote:PS: PLS FIX ASTARTE !!! I second this, Command ships are FAR FAR FAR more broke than any of the T1 BS were. After these changes, this is no more! :troll: But indeed, when Fozzie (or was it Itterbium?) posted the results of their preliminary investigation, I figured they'll only rework Typhoon - because Fozzie hates split weapons. I clearly remember that Domi was mentioned as being "fine", so I expected just minor tweaks. And suddenly - THIS! ...why? |
Quaaid
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
159
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:00:00 -
[987] - Quote
Make Domi:
- Current Drone Bonus - Replace Hybrid Bonus with 10% Boost to Drone Control Range and Speed per Level - 5 / 7 / 7 - 4 Launcher Hardpoints - 4 Gun Hardpoints - Balance stats out for teiricide effort
Make Sentries: - MWD to master when recalled @ heavy drone speed (universal)
While some of that sounds silly on the surface, the Domi would be a drone boat that can find a home in any fleet and be tank agnostic. If you have to drop the 7th mid or kill the launcher hardpoints, I understand... just don't drop both. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
554
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:14:00 -
[988] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:They are easily countered by things smaller than themselves and their firepower is easily matched by things cheaper. Firepower sure, but there's more to a Battleship than how much damage it can put out. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Berfdod
Pwncakes and Rofls
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:22:00 -
[989] - Quote
why can t you include control range since garde iis are able to shoot to the extent of range with out wasting highs and that is the auto cannon version of drones :( you take everything that is unique for the typhoon and domi and give it to a amarr ship that was already ok, then you streamline the typhoon and domi :( |
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:30:00 -
[990] - Quote
Idea for Megathrion & Hyperion
Megathron Bonus: 5% refire Rate 7,5% Tracking 7 High, 7 Turrets, 5 Med, 6 Low, 125 dronebandwith make it more agil then the Hyperion, but slower at max speed.
Hyperion Bonus: 5% dmg (same) 7,5% armor repair (same) 8 High, 8 Turrets, 4 med, 8 low, 50 dronebandwith make it less agil then megathron, but give more max speed (like 300ms) and give it a slight better cap regeneration. |
|
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:36:00 -
[991] - Quote
Antimatter Launcher wrote:Idea for Megathrion & Hyperion
Megathron Bonus: 5% refire Rate 7,5% Tracking 8 High, 7 Turrets, 5 Med, 6 Low, 125 dronebandwith make it more agile then the Hyperion, but slower at max speed.
Hyperion Bonus: 5% dmg (same) 7,5% armor repair (same) 8 High, 8 Turrets, 4 med, 8 low, 50 dronebandwith make it less agile then megathron, but give more max speed (like 300ms) and give it a slight better cap regeneration.
so the ship design philosophy will hit. hyperion looks fast at max speed, and tanky, and armored. that will fit it perfect. the 8 low slot can be used for more lock in range for fleet fights if needed. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3046
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:36:00 -
[992] - Quote
Antimatter Launcher wrote:Idea for Megathrion & Hyperion
Megathron Bonus: 5% refire Rate 7,5% Tracking 7 High, 7 Turrets, 5 Med, 6 Low, 125 dronebandwith make it more agil then the Hyperion, but slower at max speed.
Hyperion Bonus: 5% dmg (same) 7,5% armor repair (same) 8 High, 8 Turrets, 4 med, 8 low, 50 dronebandwith make it less agil then megathron, but give more max speed (like 300ms) and give it a slight better cap regeneration.
You literally just removed a slot from the mega and gave it to the hyp. That is not how this works. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:37:00 -
[993] - Quote
i edited it, i fortgott to give the mega the 8 High Slot. and look i took 50% of the dronebandwith from the hype, and give the megathron its 125 again. ccp want to make 100 for the new mega.
so in theorie the mega will able to do more dmg, 5 heavy drones with 7 guns with 25% refire rate and 37,% tracking and maybe a neut or a drone modul in high slot will make the mega very agressive. the mega will not be able in fleet fights with this slot configuration, but overall better for small groups then the hyperion. the mega can go MWD with Web with scrambler for the price of weaker tank. with its more offensive power and agility, it fits the role perfectly.
the hyperion will do lesser dmg with maybe 5 medium drones and the lack of tracking, and the more bulky hull, but will tank more, and can be fittet for fleetfights. so each ship will have it role. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3230
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:46:00 -
[994] - Quote
Give the Domi a cap transfer bonus to put it on equal footing with the Armageddon as far as being a drone carrier from the drone-based ace.
I would also like to see sentry drones able to MWD when being recalled. This would allow me to deploy drones, then shoot stuff while moving, without having to move back to a known point in space to pick them up. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1611
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:49:00 -
[995] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:That leaves only the Megathron, which simply cannot even hope to match the stats represented by the other three races' line DPS Battleships. This is the best it can do, using railguns for very obvious reasons:
Megathron: DPS: 495 @ 40km, 370 @ 70km EHP: 105k Resists: 71 / 63 / 63 / 49 Bonus Perk: None i'm not going to defend the mega as a fleet doc ship but youre very bad at fitting ships if that's the best you can do... running it through EFT VERY quickly I was able to get 115k EHP, 580dps @ 40km, 330dps @ 150km and that's with no fitting mods and not counting any drones which, with a 125 bandwidth, can be deployed for +260 DPS with bouncers (not insignificant), bringing it up to 840dps @ 40km. (yes, the resists are non existent.)
TBH, gallente BSs are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be.
fit for reference:
Quote:[Megathron, Fleet Rails] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Bouncer II x5 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3046
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:54:00 -
[996] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:That leaves only the Megathron, which simply cannot even hope to match the stats represented by the other three races' line DPS Battleships. This is the best it can do, using railguns for very obvious reasons:
Megathron: DPS: 495 @ 40km, 370 @ 70km EHP: 105k Resists: 71 / 63 / 63 / 49 Bonus Perk: None i'm not going to defend the mega as a fleet doc ship but youre very bad at fitting ships if that's the best you can do... running it through EFT VERY quickly I was able to get 115k EHP, 580dps @ 40km, 330dps @ 150km and that's with no fitting mods and not counting any drones which, with a 125 bandwidth, can be deployed for +260 DPS with bouncers (not insignificant), bringing it up to 840dps @ 40km. (yes, the resists are non existent.) TBH, gallente BSs are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be. fit for reference: Quote:[Megathron, Fleet Rails] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Bouncer II x5
That is because you are completely neglecting the resists, which are the most critical component of the tank. I grabbed the old fleet fit I have for those stats - pre t2 plate change. Doesn't change anything, because the abaddon stats are also m4 plated. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Helena Khan
Ministry Of Reverse Engineering
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 05:57:00 -
[997] - Quote
Thanks for the debate everyone.
I still believe the Hyperion is the better fit for a line ship because of the 8 turrets and damage bonus as it currently stands. Where it falls down is that large fleet combat is all about EHP. Resists and low slots are the cure as has been pointed out. A rep bonus is no use at all if you're being alpha'd off the field. Add a low, remove a mid and changing the bonus would be better, along with possible tweaks to armor. No real need to change the rest of the hull - speed/agility etc etc.
The Mega tracking bonus means it is more effective at hitting smaller or faster targets - and as such makes it a better heavy cavalry style of ship across a greater range of targets. A ROF bonus also means guns cycle faster, meaning target changing is quicker as well (slightly). It's just a more natural progression imho.
Another way of putting it: DPS/Speed/Durability. Pick any two. |
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 06:03:00 -
[998] - Quote
Helena Khan wrote:Thanks for the debate everyone.
I still believe the Hyperion is the better fit for a line ship because of the 8 turrets and damage bonus as it currently stands. Where it falls down is that large fleet combat is all about EHP. Resists and low slots are the cure as has been pointed out. A rep bonus is no use at all if you're being alpha'd off the field. Add a low, remove a mid and changing the bonus would be better, along with possible tweaks to armor.
the problem is, ccp dont want to change the armor boni. they will make it usefull.
so we need to give ccp tipps that compares with the armor boni.
and it seems they want pretty much to remove the 5 med.
so if they remove the 5 med, the should make the dronebandwith smaller, and give it a 8 low slot in my opinion. that will make the ship perfect. and the ship need a movement speed buff. 144m/s is to slow. they should put the max speed to 220M/s without making the ship more agile.
and the mega should become agile like the machariel and the refire rate bonus fits perfect with the tracking bonus as you say. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1611
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 06:08:00 -
[999] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:That leaves only the Megathron, which simply cannot even hope to match the stats represented by the other three races' line DPS Battleships. This is the best it can do, using railguns for very obvious reasons:
Megathron: DPS: 495 @ 40km, 370 @ 70km EHP: 105k Resists: 71 / 63 / 63 / 49 Bonus Perk: None i'm not going to defend the mega as a fleet doc ship but youre very bad at fitting ships if that's the best you can do... running it through EFT VERY quickly I was able to get 115k EHP, 580dps @ 40km, 330dps @ 150km and that's with no fitting mods and not counting any drones which, with a 125 bandwidth, can be deployed for +260 DPS with bouncers (not insignificant), bringing it up to 840dps @ 40km. (yes, the resists are non existent.) TBH, gallente BSs are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be. fit for reference: Quote:[Megathron, Fleet Rails] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Bouncer II x5 That is because you are completely neglecting the resists, which are the most critical component of the tank. I grabbed the old fleet fit I have for those stats - pre t2 plate change. Doesn't change anything, because the abaddon stats are also m4 plated.
the resists are the same as your fit. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
554
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 06:44:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Helena Khan wrote:I still believe the Hyperion is the better fit for a line ship because of the 8 turrets and damage bonus as it currently stands. Where it falls down is that large fleet combat is all about EHP. You're aware that you're talking about a battleship with SEVEN low slots right? Passive fit, It has more damage and hitpoints than your standard fleet artillery Maelstrom, and its hp is about the same as a Rokh.
HOWEVER. A Gallente *sniper* should never outperform the Caldari/Amarr @ extreme range, because that's what those races excel at. Maybe something like a MJD range bonus could be fun to play with, because Gallente is a close-midrange race.
With that said, it's unlike that any turret based ships will ever supplant the Rokh/Mael for sniping because of three reason. 1. The Rokh will always have the best range. Nothing compares to it. 2. Because of the way artillery (alpha) works, and the Maelstroms 8 turrets, it will always be a top choice. 3. Both of these ships are significantly less cap hungry and harder to tank against than lasers. -áwww.promsrage.com |
|
Ryuce
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 06:54:00 -
[1001] - Quote
nvm |
Galphii
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
125
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:07:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Given the similarity between ABC's in firepower, and the great gulf between BS and capitals in terms of hitpoints (giving the BS room to grow), does anyone here reckon that battleships should get a substantial (+25%) boost to hitpoints to widen the gap between ABC's and BS? It seems the tradeoff of toughness for mobility is something people greatly prefer, and BS needs something to make it stand out, especially for the price. X |
Helena Khan
Ministry Of Reverse Engineering
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:22:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Helena Khan wrote:I still believe the Hyperion is the better fit for a line ship because of the 8 turrets and damage bonus as it currently stands. Where it falls down is that large fleet combat is all about EHP. You're aware that you're talking about a battleship with SEVEN low slots right? Passive fit, It has more damage and hitpoints than your standard fleet artillery Maelstrom, and its hp is about the same as a Rokh. HOWEVER. A Gallente *sniper* should never outperform the Caldari/Amarr @ extreme range, because that's what those races excel at. Maybe something like a MJD range bonus could be fun to play with, because Gallente is a close-midrange race. With that said, it's unlike that any turret based ships will ever supplant the Rokh/Mael for sniping because of three reason. 1. The Rokh will always have the best range. Nothing compares to it. 2. Because of the way artillery (alpha) works, and the Maelstroms 8 turrets, it will always be a top choice. 3. Both of these ships are significantly less cap hungry and harder to tank against than lasers.
While the Mega does have seven lows - the gun bonuses current and proposed are suggestive of a heavy cavalry style of ship. The Hyperion is the opposite. Thats the point.
There are massive alpha differences as you've indicated. The comparison is something of an apples/oranges affair, esp when you take into account the 8 turrets for the Mael vs 7 for the Mega. To make it more competitive would require the addition of another turret - whereas the Hype already has 8 in place....
|
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:32:00 -
[1004] - Quote
Why dont we just all agree that the changes to the domi are great to some extent. Add drone control range to it and some powergrid + a little drone bay increase (+50?) and we are fine...
I'd like to see a new model for it too :P ( domi = fat ugly blob ) |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:36:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Moretic wrote:Why dont we just all agree that the changes to the domi are great to some extent. Add drone control range to it and some powergrid and we are fine...
I'd like to see a new model for it too :P ( domi = fat ugly blob ) I think better to give domi bonus on both drones types. For example optimal+mwd speed (7,5 per lvl for example). You always could put 2 DLA in your high (especiallynow w\o hybrid bonus damage). |
chris elliot
EG CORP Talocan United
163
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:36:00 -
[1006] - Quote
What would the potential thatwouldbebrokenasbawls theory be with giving the Hyp more grid and cpu to make use of its top tier guns along with its primary tank like the other tier 3 battleships?
Give it back its mid and couple it with the rep amount bonus and add in a third bonus to cycle time or cap reduction used for reppers to help ease the terribad cycle times of armor reps in pvp. That way it way it would actually sorta work for fleets because it can actually fit things(rails plates blah blah). And in small gang it can sorta do what a maelstrom or raven can do with the asb's(only with cap boosters).
I'm sure somewhere in the 50 pages of people wondering A) Why you hate us. B)Crying. C)Banging heads in frustration. D)Trying to unscrew this potential catastrophy. Someone has to have suggested it.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2477
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:39:00 -
[1007] - Quote
RE: Megathron
so comparing a standard Neutron/dual plate/Heavy neut fit, new Mega loses 160 dps with the same tank (or 25K EHP and 11dps), gains 55m/s speed and 0.7s align time. Extra mid can not fit MJD, only low-cpu modules fit. TC or ECCM would be my choice, or painter/another web depending on the rest of the gang.
For light armor, changes would mean that Mega needs to overheat on Void to reach 1000dps, gets a mid in exchange, which in together with the ROF bonus will make it hit better. In some cases, this might mean more applied dps.
However, it can no longer do heavy armor at all, and active tank gets slashed by ~300 hp/s (RAH@Omni 15%).
Shield fit has max 85K EHP, and this fit has no tackle. No point, no web. Tackle drops you down to 74K EHP. With one Overdrive and heated MWD, it goes 1797m/s (not for long, mind the cap) and pushes 1185dps with CNAM and Ogre IIs. With Null it does less dps than a Talos. Hard to see where this big and slow glass cannon would be useful.
So heavy tank is no longer an option (no fleet option)
As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.
After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.
P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:43:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Moretic wrote:Why dont we just all agree that the changes to the domi are great to some extent. Add drone control range to it and some powergrid and we are fine...
I'd like to see a new model for it too :P ( domi = fat ugly blob ) I think better to give domi bonus on both drones types. For example optimal+mwd speed (7,5 per lvl for example). You always could put 2 DLA in your high (especiallynow w\o hybrid bonus damage).
I am all for more drone thingys... I just dont wanna loose any turrent slots despite the lack of gun bonus... I'd care less about guns if they put all 3 (drone damage, tracking, optimal) on the ship and add drone implants.
I see the addition of tracking rather good and I want to see more drones!! |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3344
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:44:00 -
[1009] - Quote
*Role Bonus*
Megathron: -50% to fitting and cooldown timer of Micro Warp Drive
Hyperion and Dominix: -50% to cycle time and capacitor usage of Target Spectrum Breaker
The Megathron would become a very good small scale, dare I say solo ship while embedding its place as an attack battleship. Enabling it to get on top of the enemy to pound away with it's blasters.
The Hyperion and Dominix would enjoy the luxury of a new type of large scale fleet fights happening as the number of enemies about to primary it are severely diminished. Thus allowing the Hyperion to make use of a local tank and the Dominix could see practicality use of it's drones and utility high slots depending on the configuration.
The other races can make good use of the same role bonuses one their T1 battleships. It would be a very distinctive advantage to choosing them over say the attack battlecruisers and blow away the "Blob > Everything"... well, maybe not blow it away, but damn sure make it far less accurate than it is now. The only ones I see who would be extremely against such role bonuses would be F1 monkeys and the FC's who lead them.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:46:00 -
[1010] - Quote
also, I wanna know what changes they are making to the navy dom :P |
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2477
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:53:00 -
[1011] - Quote
RE: Dominix
along with the fixes to drone UI, AI, sig, EHP, speed and activation proximity, the new Dominix is an awesome ship if the changes go through as suggested. Currently the optimal+tracking bonus does help so much with mobile drones, which suffer from both low MWD and orbit speeds, not from tracking and optimal.
I do confess that only one of my Domis have guns on it, and it's a solo PVE fit which loses some gun dps, but gains Garde range and tracking.
Doubling sentry scope range would not hurt your idea of making it a fleet ship. Or increase drone bay- if Amarr ship can have the same bandwidth, why not break the "rules" and give Gallente the bigger bay, as it's now designed as a pure drone boat. I don't personally like the idea of pure drone boats, but in the case of Dominix, I have to admit that's how I fly it 99% of the time and it performs really well in it's task.
Low damage in brawling small gang situations is worrying (no you won't be able to use heavies against frigs no matter how much tracking you pile on Ogers), and this is where the Geddon starts to look much better alternative.
Anyway- the drone fixes have to come.
Also happy rumour for Domi pilots- it's getting a new model <3
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:55:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Roime wrote:RE: Dominix
along with the fixes to drone UI, AI, sig, EHP, speed and activation proximity, the new Dominix is an awesome ship if the changes go through as suggested. Currently the optimal+tracking bonus does help so much with mobile drones, which suffer from both low MWD and orbit speeds, not from tracking and optimal.
I do confess that only one of my Domis have guns on it, and it's a solo PVE fit which loses some gun dps, but gains Garde range and tracking.
Doubling sentry scope range would not hurt your idea of making it a fleet ship. Or increase drone bay- if Amarr ship can have the same bandwidth, why not break the "rules" and give Gallente the bigger bay, as it's now designed as a pure drone boat. I don't personally like the idea of pure drone boats, but in the case of Dominix, I have to admit that's how I fly it 99% of the time and it performs really well in it's task.
Low damage in brawling small gang situations is worrying (no you won't be able to use heavies against frigs no matter how much tracking you pile on Ogers), and this is where the Geddon starts to look much better alternative.
Anyway- the drone fixes have to come.
Also happy rumour for Domi pilots- it's getting a new model <3
P.S. How about expanding the drone bonus finally to ALL types of drones? That would be literally a "drone boat".
WOOT!!!! ??? new model? thats UNFAIR to say since I will now be *BEEP* over it regardless if its true or not :P |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2477
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:58:00 -
[1013] - Quote
Moretic wrote: WOOT!!!! ??? new model? thats UNFAIR to say since I will now be *BEEP* over it regardless if its true or not :P
http://imgur.com/11sixml
finally
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
567
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:06:00 -
[1014] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Listen, I know they only let you fly Amarr ships in PIE so you may not be aware of this, but even if a sentry drone has the optimal to reach that far, it can't fire outside your drone control radius. Since the Dominix gets no bonus to drone control range, the effective range of any sentry drone is hard-capped in the ~60km area unless you fit a control range module. Fully aware of the restriction, the ranges was listed in response to an individual that apparently only considered blasters when making his evaluation of the options. Must be said though that I have not seen sentry sniping for a long time (nano-age Ishtar's) so had to actually check the bonus on the augmentor .. 20km .. WTF!
@CCP: Double the control range bonus on Drone Link Augs, 20km is neither here nor there and ships going out to those ranges will in most likelihood need a SeBo on top to utilize it. Either that, or consider the ranges when the Great Drone Revision of 201X rolls around (see, optimism .. honestly think it will happen in this decade! )
Marlona Sky wrote:...Hyperion and Dominix: -50% to cycle time and capacitor usage of Target Spectrum Breaker[/b]... How do they function in reality, Is the breakers applied before or after a lock? If before then you'll just have swarms of unlockable gank blaster BS running around, if after then by all means ..
Good idea with the MJD though, although I'd probably go cap use reduction instead of fitting. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3344
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:15:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:...Hyperion and Dominix: -50% to cycle time and capacitor usage of Target Spectrum Breaker[/b]... How do they function in reality, Is the breakers applied before or after a lock? If before then you'll just have swarms of unlockable gank blaster BS running around, if after then by all means .. Good idea with the MJD though, although I'd probably go cap use reduction instead of fitting. The Target Spectrum Breaker chance to break a persons lock/attempt to lock goes higher and higher the more and more people have the ship locked and are attempting to lock it. That is per ship. So that does not mean no one will be able to lock it in large fights, it means a smaller portion can lock it. As far as using it in small scale combat, you won't really see much use because the chance of breaking someones lock will be very low due to the small number of people locking you.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:38:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Roime wrote:Moretic wrote: WOOT!!!! ??? new model? thats UNFAIR to say since I will now be *BEEP* over it regardless if its true or not :P
http://imgur.com/11sixml finally
please please make it so !!! :D haha, I'd love to see images of the model :D |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:38:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:2) The Hyperion is the only tier 3 Gallente BS. Because it has the **** layout, it isn't viable for any of the things every other tier 3 BS can do. The only fleet viable BS Gallente has currently is the Megathron (it has a good layout), but because of the tier system, its stats are WAY below par. Tiericide is an opportunity to fix this. They decided to make the problem worse instead, by LOWERING the relevant stats on the Megathron while simultaneously giving it the gimptastic layout. Hence page 49. In fact, if people didn't had blinkers, may be they would have seen that the Hyperion would have replaced the Megathron as a fleet ship. But because they see "armor rep bonus", then the ship automagically swap in an invisibility sphere it seem... |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3046
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:47:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:2) The Hyperion is the only tier 3 Gallente BS. Because it has the **** layout, it isn't viable for any of the things every other tier 3 BS can do. The only fleet viable BS Gallente has currently is the Megathron (it has a good layout), but because of the tier system, its stats are WAY below par. Tiericide is an opportunity to fix this. They decided to make the problem worse instead, by LOWERING the relevant stats on the Megathron while simultaneously giving it the gimptastic layout. Hence page 49. In fact, if people didn't had blinkers, may be they would have seen that the Hyperion would have replaced the Megathron as a fleet ship. But because they see "armor rep bonus", then the ship automagically swap in an invisibility sphere it seem...
You realize they were trying to give the Mega that inherently flawed 8-5-6 layout right? Basically trading one gimp for another? TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
456
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:47:00 -
[1019] - Quote
Roime wrote: As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.
After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.
P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron.
I kind of get this impression too... Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3046
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:57:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Roime wrote: As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.
After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.
P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron.
I kind of get this impression too...
I think this is the way to go too - it is the impression I got with "tiericide". Making all ships have equivalent numbers, and different roles.
CCP needs to realize, though, that some roles don't exist. Just because you want to design a "fast battleship" doesn't mean the role will magically appear - Assault BCs fill that role better. They do the same or more damage and have far more speed and versatility.
Battleships are mobile fortresses. Vulnerable to small ships, but excelling at putting serious pain downrange and taking punishment. Design these ships appropriately. Give them unique specializations - range, tank, EWAR, drones, support, you name it - but for the love of god don't stray from "big guns, big tank, and slow". Other ships do the roles outside that sphere far better. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
834
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:01:00 -
[1021] - Quote
CCP Rise with regards to the Dominix
Omnathious Deninard wrote:I will start this off with a little lore: Red Moon Rising Expansion December 2005 EW Drones, Logistic Drones, and Sentry Drones were introduced. Max drone control was 15, (+5 from Drones, +5 from Drone Interfacing, and +5 form the ship [Dominix] in this thread) Over the next few years T2 variations of drones were introduces for all drones, with the exception of EW drones and Fighter/Bombers Fast forward to December 2007, Trinity Expansion Drone Bandwidth was introduced and the max drone control for sub capital ships was reduced 5 drones per ship, skills and ships were modified to compensate for the loss of 10 drones, Drones +1 Drones/level Drone Interfacing +20% Drone Damage and Mining Yield/level Ship Bonuses +10% Drone Damage and HP/level
Now the modifications were effective in keeping the damage the same as before, but nothing else for example you were able to launch 15 medium armor maintaince drone II from the Dominix, @28 HP/drone and a cycle time of 5s you could rep 105HP/s. now you can only rep 35HP/s. This is due to the Drone Interfacing skill only boosting Drone Damage and not the total effectiveness of drones, the same if true for all non combat drones.
As for the ability to destroy drones, when 15 drones were able to be controlled by the Dominix, using hammerhead II, the total HP of all drones was (before resistances) 21225HP. The reduction of drone control did not take this into consideration either, the hull grants +10% HP/level, but that leaves the drones with a total HP of 10615.5HP, merely half of the amount of HP that could be fielded before.
Drone Interfacing should add +20%/level to the total effectiveness of drones, HP, Damage, Mining Yield, Web amount. The Hull bonus should do the same except 10%/level
This would give drone ships the versatility that they use to have before they were reduced down to 5 drones. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:02:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:You realize they were trying to give the Mega that inherently flawed 8-5-6 layout right? Basically trading one gimp for another? You realize the Megathron was not supposed to be a fleet ship anymore ?
And you may not like non amarr BS, that don't mean 8/5/6 layout is non functional ; you don't see any use to this layout, fine, go play with some amarr BS with 847 layout, there is 3 of them ; new Megathron had almost the same firepower than before (which mean *very huge*, because of blasters), and earned a utility mid slot ! Yet, blind people like you are in a senseless crusade against 856 layout and don't even want to look at this kind of ship, because that may hurt your soul and bring you to hell...
|
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
45
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:04:00 -
[1023] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. Yes, please. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3046
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:07:00 -
[1024] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:You realize they were trying to give the Mega that inherently flawed 8-5-6 layout right? Basically trading one gimp for another? You realize the Megathron was not supposed to be a fleet ship anymore ? And you may not like non amarr BS, that don't mean 8/5/6 layout is non functional ; you don't see any use to this layout, fine, go play with some amarr BS with 847 layout, there is 3 of them ; new Megathron had almost the same firepower than before (which mean *very huge*, because of blasters), and earned a utility mid slot ! Yet, blind people like you are in a senseless crusade against 856 layout and don't even want to look at this kind of ship, because that may hurt your soul and bring you to hell...
Go fit a hyperion and tell me the layout works again. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:08:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Roime wrote:RE: Megathron
so comparing a standard Neutron/dual plate/Heavy neut fit, new Mega loses 160 dps with the same tank (or 25K EHP and 11dps), gains 55m/s speed and 0.7s align time. Extra mid can not fit MJD, only low-cpu modules fit. TC or ECCM would be my choice, or painter/another web depending on the rest of the gang.
For light armor, changes would mean that Mega needs to overheat on Void to reach 1000dps, gets a mid in exchange, which in together with the ROF bonus will make it hit better. In some cases, this might mean more applied dps.
However, it can no longer do heavy armor at all, and active tank gets slashed by ~300 hp/s (RAH@Omni 15%).
Shield fit has max 85K EHP, and this fit has no tackle. No point, no web. Tackle drops you down to 74K EHP. With one Overdrive and heated MWD, it goes 1797m/s (not for long, mind the cap) and pushes 1185dps with CNAM and Ogre IIs. With Null it does less dps than a Talos. Hard to see where this big and slow glass cannon would be useful.
As a general note, idk why CCP doesn't use this opportunity to lift the whole battleship class to their former glory. 20% EHP, free extra turret+fitting for all, more sensor strength, lock range and capacitor. Ideally they would sit clearly above all other subcaps in damage, projection and staying power.
After Odyssey, ABCs will still rule.
P.S. "mobile armor battleship" is an oxymoron. Of course, when comparing the Talos to something else, ehp are irrelevant, or the other ship would have an advantage I guess ? Do you realize that you are looking at any advantage of the Megathron over the Talos with disdain and hence concluding that the Talos is far better ? You are completely biased toward the Talos. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2479
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:09:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Akirei Scytale
Now, let's look at the stats on three common ships used to fill this role: the Alpha Maelstrom, Fleet Rokh and Hellcat Abaddon.
[u wrote:Alpha Maelstrom:[/u] DPS: 600 @ 40km, 400 @ 70km EHP: 123k Resists: 71 / 77 / 83 / 70 Bonus Perk: Extreme Alpha
This ship is an all around solid choice, even with a completely wasted ship bonus. I won't go into too much depth, but resist bonuses are completely superior to active bonuses because they benefit both active and buffer tanks. Let's lose them if we can.
Fleet Rokh: DPS: 540 @ 60km, 300 @ 140km EHP: 133k Resists: 78 / 83 / 73 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extreme Range Flexibility
This ship not only has a fantastic tank, but it can actually compete with Tier 3 Battlecruisers that attempt to harass it. It fills its role incredibly well, and there is a reason the HBC relies on it primarily today.
Hellcat Abaddon: DPS: 650 @ 60km EHP: 125k Resists: 68 / 79 / 79 / 77 Bonus Perk: Extremely High Tracking
Ok, if the vague promise of tweaking sentry mechanics is actually realized, here's the Domi stats.
Sentry Dominix: DPS: 848 @ 62km EHP: 121K Resists: 75 / 68 / 68 / 64 Bonus Perks: Best tracking of all LR large guns in game by a fair margin*, assigning drones means fast locking times.
Tank is lacking, and needs either more CPU or native drone control range. Swapping one DDA II for resists improve the tank at the expense of dps. Vulnerable to bombs, drone EHP and sig need to be fixed. On-grid warps don't necessarily mean losing drones, you can have alternate between sets of deployed drones. Is possible to fit for high dps at 130km as well.
So, it's not quite there, and like the Hype, the issues go deeper than just ship stats.
* about equal to Neutron Mega with CNAM
Fit used for theorycrafting:
[Dominix, Fleet] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive Target Spectrum Breaker
Drone Link Augmentor II 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Garde II x5 Bouncer II x5 Garde II x5
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:10:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Go fit a hyperion and tell me the layout works again. Sure, which amarrian job do you want it to do ? Which amarrian caracteristics do you want it to mimic for your job ? Because I'm pretty sure you will discard anything I can give to you if I don't answer these questions... |
Denuo Secus
160
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:14:00 -
[1028] - Quote
I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.
We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.
All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?
Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2480
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:16:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: Of course, when comparing the Talos to something else, ehp are irrelevant, or the other ship would have an advantage I guess ? Do you realize that you are looking at any advantage of the Megathron over the Talos with disdain and hence concluding that the Talos is far better ? You are completely biased toward the Talos.
I'm comparing the advantages of these ships when fitted for mobile dps, as CCP Rise suggests that the new Mega could be used.
Talos- mobility, dps Mega- tank
Now when you consider these in practical situations, you'll notice that the mobility of Talos negates the need for tank. And the Mega will actually need to tank, because it will be caught by most ships.
When fit for close range armor brawling, Mega obviously wins hands down, due to massive tank and utility advantage.
= I'm not saying Mega is worse than Talos, except when shield fit. I don't really believe in fast battleships, one exists and it's pretty damn OP and should be nerfed. The trump cards of battleships should be fire-and staying power along with utility.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3046
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:18:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Go fit a hyperion and tell me the layout works again. Sure, which amarrian job do you want it to do ? Which amarrian caracteristics do you want it to mimic for your job ? Because I'm pretty sure you will discard anything I can give to you if I don't answer these questions...
Amarrian? Every race has a beefy, medium range bs. Every race but gallente. In fact, the two best ones are caldari and minmatar. But keep calling it an amarr role if it makes you feel good. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
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baltec1
Bat Country
5891
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:20:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.
We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.
All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?
Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea.
I would rather lose the utility high than that low slot. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
357
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:22:00 -
[1032] - Quote
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. |
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Dave Stark
2520
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:23:00 -
[1033] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I would rather lose the utility high than that low slot.
ask and ye shall receive... Maggie Thatcher. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
272
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:24:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Roime wrote:I'm comparing the advantages of these ships when fitted for mobile dps, as CCP Rise suggests that the new Mega could be used.
Talos- mobility, dps Mega- tank
Now when you consider these in practical situations, you'll notice that the mobility of Talos negates the need for tank. And the Mega will actually need to tank, because it will be caught by most ships.
When fit for close range armor brawling, Mega obviously wins hands down, due to massive tank and utility advantage.
= I'm not saying Mega is worse than Talos, except when shield fit. I don't really believe in fast battleships, one exists and it's pretty damn OP and should be nerfed. The trump cards of battleships should be fire-and staying power along with utility.
I fine with this wording : you don't *believe* in fast battleships. Yet, considering the stats of your megathron, it's as fast as most CBC, bu have more firepower and staying power. This fit perfectly the gap between CBC and more resilient BS.
Oh, and it have the ability to stand against ABC while returning them heavy punishment while being, again, as fast as some CBC. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
457
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:27:00 -
[1035] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. Better. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
baltec1
Bat Country
5892
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:27:00 -
[1036] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
Oh I love you so much right now |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
273
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:27:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Wow ! Looking at the changes, whining did a good job at making these ships *very* competitive, to say the least... |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
834
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:29:00 -
[1038] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. Do you plan on actually making the Dominix a decent drone ship or do you prefer the one that is inferior to the Armageddon. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:29:00 -
[1039] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. Oh I love you so much right now
DAT MEGATHRON. |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:30:00 -
[1040] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. Do you plan on actually making the Dominix a decent drone ship or do you prefer the one that is inferior to the Armageddon.
The new Dominix is going to be a pretty goddamn amazing drone ship, that range and tracking bonus is immensely powerful. |
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:31:00 -
[1041] - Quote
interesting changes not sure about mega with 8 lows and only 4 mids..... But the non increase of mobility is a shame and a mistake i kind of preferred a shield tanked mega with lots of speed and agility maybe i was silly to expect that option.... 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3046
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:31:00 -
[1042] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
At a glance I like it a lot. I'll have to play with fittings when I have the time and see what each ship is capable of, but both the Mega and Hyperion look solid there. My only gripes:
The Hyperion still has that wasted bonus, but you guys seem really deadset on keeping it. Consider an analog to resist bonuses - something different that benefits both active and buffer tanks.
The Megathron looks beautiful, though its base HP remains low in every field. However, 8 lows lets the player compensate for this to great effect. It can be built beefy as hell or skimpy on the tank with one *hell* of a punch. I like it a lot. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
834
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:31:00 -
[1043] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. Do you plan on actually making the Dominix a decent drone ship or do you prefer the one that is inferior to the Armageddon. The new Dominix is going to be a pretty goddamn amazing drone ship, that range and tracking bonus is immensely powerful. It is overshadowed by the Armageddon, this is the same thing that happened when the Algos was made, the Dragoon was a better ship. Now they are fairly balanced. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Lunaleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:32:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Much, much, much better!
Mega looks like a true fleet ship now. Bravo. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
539
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:33:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Good changes indeed !
I think the sweet spot has been hit for the Hyperion and the Dominix.
I'm not entirely sure about the Megathron.
I can see you changed it to 4 medslots and 8 lowslots.
Considering it's an attack battleship, I think it doesnt truly need 8 lowslots (which is something a front-line brawler would want, a skirmisher doesn't really need 8 lows).
I would have stayed with the previous 5-7 setup as it allowed either more flexibility with armor setups, as well as a possible shield-tanking version.
I won't whine and mash on the table because of it, but I'd like the 5-7 setup back. This along with the more "gun focused" thing would do literally wonders. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2482
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:33:00 -
[1046] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
Very nice - the Hype is indeed better, and it looks like it can become a viable option in small gang PVP. Looking very much forward to trying it.
Please don't forget to finish armor tanking 2.0.
Mega - not sure why you are so keen to change the slot layout of a working ship. The utility high has hosted a heavy neut since beginning of times, but if there is some pressing reason to fiddle with the Mega, this change is not better or worse than the previous one.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Rina Kondur
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:34:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Megathron looks great. Still sad to see the Hyperion clenching on to that active bonus though. It's just not that viable in the field. |
BobFromMarketing
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:35:00 -
[1048] - Quote
"Man I sure wish my Hyperion could use more drones in exchange for utility and less turret slots" - No one ever.
Seriously you've moved the Hyperion from **** tier to ultra **** tier. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:36:00 -
[1049] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
any chance you can confirm a new domi model and/or link image? :D |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:36:00 -
[1050] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nSKkwzwdW4 |
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
302
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:36:00 -
[1051] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Good changes indeed !
I think the sweet spot has been hit for the Hyperion and the Dominix.
I'm not entirely sure about the Megathron.
I can see you changed it to 4 medslots and 8 lowslots.
Considering it's an attack battleship, I think it doesnt truly need 8 lowslots (which is something a front-line brawler would want, a skirmisher doesn't really need 8 lows).
I would have stayed with the previous 5-7 setup as it allowed either more flexibility with armor setups, as well as a possible shield-tanking version.
I won't whine and mash on the table because of it, but I'd like the 5-7 setup back. This along with the more "gun focused" thing would do literally wonders.
Exaclty, the previous change to the Mega was damn great. It could be a very versatile boat. Meh now it is same as Hyperion. Pls roll back the mega changes.
Btw Hyperion is amazing now. Maybe a slight nerf to the Geddon would make the new changes to the domi perfect also. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
540
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:37:00 -
[1052] - Quote
I'm not a fan of every ship having the room for a heavy neut, considering how strong it already is, with his tracking bonus and general IN YOUR FACE weapon system.
Prometheus Exhental talked quite a lot about the Megathron and how the 8-5-6 setup was alright. A 7-5-7 setup with more focus on guns would be excellent |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3047
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:38:00 -
[1053] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Exaclty, the previous change to the Mega was damn great. It could be a very versatile boat. Meh now it is same as Hyperion. Pls roll back the mega changes.
Btw Hyperion is amazing now. Maybe a slight nerf to the Geddon would make the new changes to the domi perfect also.
How is a ship with 8 lows (capable of fitting a solid tank) comparable to a ship with 5 mids and 6 lows (incapable of fitting any form of respectable tank without completely sacrificing a rack)? TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
XDMR
RED SQUAD Drunk 'n' Disorderly
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:39:00 -
[1054] - Quote
With the uncalled rokh nerf incoming and the new Hype slot layout.... I think i found a new favorite ship! Some people say i fly Rokh... |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:40:00 -
[1055] - Quote
I just noticed I have not been reading the op well enough...
the new domi is fullfilling my requests :d drone damage, optimal and tracking :D ( somehow I missed the optimal at first glance ) its also getting more pw, only thing missing is drone control range which is an issue ( I still want my 6 guns :D ) |
AlexKent
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:41:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Very nice changes, good job CCP! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
273
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:41:00 -
[1057] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:How is a ship with 8 lows (capable of fitting a solid tank) comparable to a ship with 5 mids and 6 lows (incapable of fitting any form of respectable tank without completely sacrificing a rack)? You see, this is an amarr bias, or how to give a lot more value to low slot than to mid slots. |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:42:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. Do you plan on actually making the Dominix a decent drone ship or do you prefer the one that is inferior to the Armageddon. The new Dominix is going to be a pretty goddamn amazing drone ship, that range and tracking bonus is immensely powerful. It is overshadowed by the Armageddon, this is the same thing that happened when the Algos was made, the Dragoon was a better ship. Now they are fairly balanced.
Say what?
The two ships have very different roles, and don't overshadow one another at all.
The Dominix is all about flexibility now; those free-choice highs and range/tracking bonused drones gives it a lot of options and flexibility. You don't KNOW what a Dominix is going to do to you.
The Armageddon is a much more focused ship; stay close, wreck cap, inflict pain. (Also, of minor note, the Armageddon in PvP to take best advantage of those range bonused neuts is probably going to have to stump out for a faction point to keep things locked down.)
The Algos/Dragoon comparison is invalid, due to the fact that such things as small sentries don't exist, there are less tactical options available.
Tl;dr: they both rock, :frogout: |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
302
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:43:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Exaclty, the previous change to the Mega was damn great. It could be a very versatile boat. Meh now it is same as Hyperion. Pls roll back the mega changes.
Btw Hyperion is amazing now. Maybe a slight nerf to the Geddon would make the new changes to the domi perfect also.
How is a ship with 8 lows (capable of fitting a solid tank) comparable to a ship with 5 mids and 6 lows (incapable of fitting any form of respectable tank without completely sacrificing a rack)?
2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank? LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:43:00 -
[1060] - Quote
Cool changes. Maybe the hype is bit op now, but since it hardly can be used in fleets I dont think it matters that much.
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5892
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:44:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:How is a ship with 8 lows (capable of fitting a solid tank) comparable to a ship with 5 mids and 6 lows (incapable of fitting any form of respectable tank without completely sacrificing a rack)? You see, this is an amarr bias, or how to give a lot more value to low slot than to mid slots.
Its an amour tanking ship, it goes without saying that the low slots are more important than the mids. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3047
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:45:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Exaclty, the previous change to the Mega was damn great. It could be a very versatile boat. Meh now it is same as Hyperion. Pls roll back the mega changes.
Btw Hyperion is amazing now. Maybe a slight nerf to the Geddon would make the new changes to the domi perfect also.
How is a ship with 8 lows (capable of fitting a solid tank) comparable to a ship with 5 mids and 6 lows (incapable of fitting any form of respectable tank without completely sacrificing a rack)? 2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank?
Not compared to other BS. 120k buffer is the norm. Rokhs can hit 130k without sacrifices. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
833
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:45:00 -
[1063] - Quote
buying hyperions now, that looks great, the old role, but seriously pimped We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Malcanis - CSM 8 |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
273
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:46:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Exaclty, the previous change to the Mega was damn great. It could be a very versatile boat. Meh now it is same as Hyperion. Pls roll back the mega changes.
Btw Hyperion is amazing now. Maybe a slight nerf to the Geddon would make the new changes to the domi perfect also.
How is a ship with 8 lows (capable of fitting a solid tank) comparable to a ship with 5 mids and 6 lows (incapable of fitting any form of respectable tank without completely sacrificing a rack)? 2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank? If there is no room for 2 damage mod and 5 tanking mod, your ship does not exists for these people. |
kyrieee
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
110
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:46:00 -
[1065] - Quote
I think 75mbit bandwidth on the Mega is slightly too little, it could do with 100mbit. The point of giving it a RoF bonus was presumably to increase the gank factor a bit, but losing two heavy drones probably takes it right back down. I would have to do the math later, but that's just my reaction to it. Yeah you can fit an extra magstab now but if you just do slightly more damage with an extra dmgmod fitted while losing a high you haven't really gained anything. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5892
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:46:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank?
It now has more options such as more speed, agility, resistance to jamming, more firepower, more tank ect ect.
Its a great change. |
Martin0
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:47:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Megathron with 2 plates , dcu, 2 resistance plating and 3 magnetic field stab with a rof bonus... how much dps will it have?
21 days eve-online free trial here https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=396dca45-adb9-487c-913d-fa94643491bf&action=buddy |
Lunaleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:47:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote: Exaclty, the previous change to the Mega was damn great. It could be a very versatile boat. Meh now it is same as Hyperion. Pls roll back the mega changes.
Btw Hyperion is amazing now. Maybe a slight nerf to the Geddon would make the new changes to the domi perfect also.
8 lows is what an armor tanking battleship should have. Especially one focused on hybrid damage. Trying to give an armor tanker the ability to fit a bad shield tank like the previous version was trying to accomplish isn't the way the mega should be looked at.
4 mids is perfect - MWD + MJD + Cap booster + pilot choice. The tracking bonus eliminates the need for a tracking computer. The 7/4/8 slot layout is perfect for this ship, and you can fly the Hyperion or Domi for a more versatile mid slot allocation. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:47:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Pretty much perfect. Very good troll with the previous stats.
Domi even got more grid |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:48:00 -
[1070] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:
2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank?
It now has more options such as more speed, agility, resistance to jamming, more firepower, more tank ect ect. Its a great change.
Yeah, all the Gallente ships have a pretty nice, distinct feel about them now.
(I want to EFT-warrior a max-speed, max-gank blaster mega for comedy) |
|
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:49:00 -
[1071] - Quote
kyrieee wrote:I think 75mbit bandwidth on the Mega is slightly too little, it could do with 100mbit. The point of giving it a RoF bonus was presumably to increase the gank factor a bit, but losing two heavy drones probably takes it right back down. I would have to do the math later, but that's just my reaction to it. Yeah you can fit an extra magstab now but if you just do slightly more damage with an extra dmgmod fitted while losing a high you haven't really gained anything.
I'd consider the Mega's drones as more utility now at this point; this thing has purity of purpose. Rush in, blow the crap out of people, get out. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
542
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:52:00 -
[1072] - Quote
BobFromMarketing wrote:"Man I sure wish my Hyperion could use more drones in exchange less turret slots and keep the worthless active rep bonus" - No one ever.
Drones apply their DPS even if your target orbits at 500m.
Which helps with the damage application.
Less turret slots along with a bigger bonus means less cap needs, less CPU/PWG needs.
7H for 6 turrets means you get to fit a smartbomb on it without sacrificing DPS (Think : No more ECM drones on me !). Either that or a neut.
With the changes proposed in the OP, the Hyperion is a solid Active-tanking armor Battleship. Of course, Active tanking is still active tanking and will be defeated by blobs yada yada. But at least it can do what it is supposed to do efficiently, which is very good.
Quote:Its an amour tanking ship, it goes without saying that the low slots are more important than the mids.
The Machariel is an armour tanking ship, if you follow this path.
The Megathron becomes an Attack Battleship. Ie, a "fast" battleship that can still take a pounding.
It doesn't need 8 lowslots. That would bring him to ridiculous levels of tanking that are completely unneeded for an attack battleship.
However, 5 medslots would bring enough flexibility to either fit more tackle, fit a MJD (There goes the skirmish part) or fit an ECCM/TrackingCompter/Sensorbooster.
7 - 5 - 7 > 8 - 4 - 8 |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
273
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:52:00 -
[1073] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Its an amour tanking ship, it goes without saying that the low slots are more important than the mids. Armour is not everything in life. Sometimes, ECCM save your life more than a 1600mm plate. Sometimes, a web allow you to kill your target instead of being killed by it. Sometimes, a cap booster allow you to fire your guns instead of sitting defenseless. Sometimes, a MJD allow you to escape instead of dying to the blob. Sometimes, EWAR ruin the day of your ennemy in a lot more reliable way than pure firepower.
And soon, TC will be better than TE... |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:52:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Pretty nice work CCP! New Mega and Hyper looks good. Amor rep bonus still useless in fleet fight. Will you think about to give armor rep bonus one more function - increase armor rep recived? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
835
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:52:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Domi even got more grid Didn't notice that part, but it could still use a control range bonus and some more drone bay. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
baltec1
Bat Country
5892
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:53:00 -
[1076] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:kyrieee wrote:I think 75mbit bandwidth on the Mega is slightly too little, it could do with 100mbit. The point of giving it a RoF bonus was presumably to increase the gank factor a bit, but losing two heavy drones probably takes it right back down. I would have to do the math later, but that's just my reaction to it. Yeah you can fit an extra magstab now but if you just do slightly more damage with an extra dmgmod fitted while losing a high you haven't really gained anything. I'd consider the Mega's drones as more utility now at this point; this thing has purity of purpose. Rush in, blow the crap out of people, get out.
Its very rare that I will bring 5 heavies to a fight anyway. I find it much more useful to have a range of light, med, ECM and armour rep drones with me. |
BobFromMarketing
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:53:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Exaclty, the previous change to the Mega was damn great. It could be a very versatile boat. Meh now it is same as Hyperion. Pls roll back the mega changes.
Btw Hyperion is amazing now. Maybe a slight nerf to the Geddon would make the new changes to the domi perfect also.
How is a ship with 8 lows (capable of fitting a solid tank) comparable to a ship with 5 mids and 6 lows (incapable of fitting any form of respectable tank without completely sacrificing a rack)? 2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank? Sure it is if you want to do 100 dps. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
273
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:55:00 -
[1078] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:BobFromMarketing wrote:"Man I sure wish my Hyperion could use more drones in exchange less turret slots and keep the worthless active rep bonus" - No one ever.
Drones apply their DPS even if your target orbits at 500m. Which helps with the damage application. Less turret slots along with a bigger bonus means less cap needs, less CPU/PWG needs. 7H for 6 turrets means you get to fit a smartbomb on it without sacrificing DPS (Think : No more ECM drones on me !). Either that or a neut. With the changes proposed in the OP, the Hyperion is a solid Active-tanking armor Battleship. Of course, Active tanking is still active tanking and will be defeated by blobs yada yada. But at least it can do what it is supposed to do efficiently, which is very good. Quote:Its an amour tanking ship, it goes without saying that the low slots are more important than the mids. The Machariel is an armour tanking ship, if you follow this path. The Megathron becomes an Attack Battleship. Ie, a "fast" battleship that can still take a pounding. It doesn't need 8 lowslots. That would bring him to ridiculous levels of tanking that are completely unneeded for an attack battleship. However, 5 medslots would bring enough flexibility to either fit more tackle, fit a MJD (There goes the skirmish part) or fit an ECCM/TrackingCompter/Sensorbooster. 7 - 5 - 7 > 8 - 4 - 8 This. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:55:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Domi even got more grid Didn't notice that part, but it could still use a control range bonus and some more drone bay.
3km per skill lvl and 50 more drone bay? feels about right for me :D |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3047
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:56:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Pretty nice work CCP! New Mega and Hyper looks good. Amor rep bonus still useless in fleet fight. Will you think about to give armor rep bonus one more function - increase armor rep recived?
That doesn't benefit buffer without logi (small gangs) though.
IMO the rep bonuses would be better replaced with % increases to the effectiveness of plate / extender and rep modules - so they either increase rep amount or base HP based on tank. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:56:00 -
[1081] - Quote
None looks at the fact the the Mega got the ROF bonus. Which compared to the pure dmg is like a 2nd dmg mode in the low slot. + it had the utility high slot and 1 more mid for the web or Tracking computer to apply even better that dmg.
Now the Mega is the same as this new Hyperion. Similar tank and dps, more speed, less utility. We really dont need same ships with different looks.
At least if the 8/5/6 is not good than put 7/5/7. In both cases Mega d be an awesome and versatile atack BS. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
835
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:57:00 -
[1082] - Quote
CCP Rise, what is the point in the extra power grid if we have to give up turrets to use long range sentries? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
502
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:57:00 -
[1083] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
Making sentries move to return really makes a lot of sense, even if it is at 1km/s or something like that.
Having to be stationary, come back to pick up drones or abandon them completely when you can often only carry two sets (Ishtar/Domi/Gila) is a really massive drawback for no real gain vs the alternative weapons systems. They don't do more damage, they have very low tracking, and they can be blown up. Why use them over guns? No ammo... meh.
There is simply not enough reason to use sentries in PvP outside of some fairly edge cases at present..
1) Slowcats - they just dont really move anyway and can carry 1000's of spares. 2) Anti-Falcon - sentries dropped seem to work p. well to clear of falcons if you can get them agressed quickly. 3) POS bashing - so you don't need ammo.
There are at present not enough PvP options for sentries below slowcats because of the limitation you highlight. The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5892
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:58:00 -
[1084] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its an amour tanking ship, it goes without saying that the low slots are more important than the mids. Armour is not everything in life. Sometimes, ECCM save your life more than a 1600mm plate. Sometimes, a web allow you to kill your target instead of being killed by it. Sometimes, a cap booster allow you to fire your guns instead of sitting defenseless. Sometimes, a MJD allow you to escape instead of dying to the blob. Sometimes, EWAR ruin the day of your ennemy in a lot more reliable way than pure firepower. And soon, TC will be better than TE...
There are ECCM mods for low slots, and we still have to space in the mids for all of those things.
I do use sheild tanked vairents of the mega, and I like the idea of five mids. But 8 low slots has me just as excited.
Indeed, this new setup will solve several issues I had with armour roaming gang limitations. |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:59:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Domi even got more grid Didn't notice that part, but it could still use a control range bonus and some more drone bay.
Why hello there Drone Link Augmentor, how are you this fine morning
(I guess an extra 50m drone bay for a touch more utility wouldn't go completely amiss, but I think a lot of people aren't realising just what an unpredictable terror the new domi is.) |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:00:00 -
[1086] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its an amour tanking ship, it goes without saying that the low slots are more important than the mids. Armour is not everything in life. Sometimes, ECCM save your life more than a 1600mm plate. Sometimes, a web allow you to kill your target instead of being killed by it. Sometimes, a cap booster allow you to fire your guns instead of sitting defenseless. Sometimes, a MJD allow you to escape instead of dying to the blob. Sometimes, EWAR ruin the day of your ennemy in a lot more reliable way than pure firepower. And soon, TC will be better than TE... There are ECCM mods for low slots, and we still have to space in the mids for all of those things. I do use sheild tanked vairents of the mega, and I like the idea of five mids. But 8 low slots has me just as excited. Indeed, this new setup will solve several issues I had with armour roaming gang limitations.
Oh come on, you know you want to fit the thing with 3 magstabs, 2 TE, 2 nanofibres and a DC and just wreck someone's face with it |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:01:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:So after some cool down time to digest the information and talk logically about these proposed changes and the flaws in them, here's what I've got. I'll do the Domi first because it seems that CCP is happy with the changes Dominix: -Having a BS purely focused on drones is nice, but it's also disheartening. I think the main issue that people had with the Domi was a PG issue trying to fight those blasters and rails, hence why most people went neut/support domi instead. A little increase in the PG would see more people fitting blasters or rails. -Now that we have 6 utility highs, the most gun dps we're gonna get on a Domi is about 200. This leaves the domi severly lacking in terms of BS DPS, i..e about 700. My vexor can get that much.....This is obviously a pretty glaring issue for me. -The next problem is the sole reliance on drones. Drones get left behind, get smartbombed, popped by frig swarms, etc. If you're forcing the Domi to only rely on drone dps (and the geddon for that matter), then the drone HP bonus should be upped considerably. I would propose something like 20% per lvl to Drone HP. The new Dominix will be interesting to fly, but I still feel the Geddon will be better in most engagements because of those ranged neuts. That being said, has anyone considered what the optimal range and tracking will do to heavy drones? Will this allow heavies to engage outside of large smartbomb range, or will heavies still be forced to orbit at 2km? Mega: This ship for me should really be the large fleet ship that every Gallente pilot wants, but for this to happen CCP needs to change the Mega into the other direction. Giving it a 5th mid while taking a low slot is not the way to go. Instead, the Mega should lose that Utility high (I know I love it too, but sacrifices people), keep the proposed new midslot, and get back the earlier proposed loss of a lowslot. This will give the ideal slot layout for the Mega to become a viable large fleet ship. In additon to this, the Mega would need a serious buff to raw HP, PG and CPU to fit those damn railguns. CCP, get on it! Hype: This ship should be the "attack" BS for the Gallente. A lot of broken promises and fabled lands of working active tanking could make the hype awesome (and the brutix and myrm ..... ), but promises don't come justly or quickly from our CCP overlords. This ship has a legacy bonus that needs to be looked at, but the idea of it working has excited me for 5 years of playing this game, so maybe one day it will be fixed. That aside, the new Hype should be made faster and more agile thus giving it the ability to get in your face and melt with blasters. It would have the synergy of the new changes to active armor tanking rigs. Drop a turret if need be, but it needs the 5 mids and the additonal lows to tank effectively, especially if this ship is supposed to be used in smaller engagements where every ship having tackel is essential.
I'll just leave this here. CCP, thank you for listening to us players. Everyone else, you're welcoem |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
835
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:01:00 -
[1088] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Domi even got more grid Didn't notice that part, but it could still use a control range bonus and some more drone bay. Why hello there Drone Link Augmentor, how are you this fine morning (I guess an extra 50m drone bay for a touch more utility wouldn't go completely amiss, but I think a lot of people aren't realising just what an unpredictable terror the new domi is.) Well good bye 1k extra power grid, what did I need you for again? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:01:00 -
[1089] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
How about consdering 10km scoop range for sentries? LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3047
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:01:00 -
[1090] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its an amour tanking ship, it goes without saying that the low slots are more important than the mids. Armour is not everything in life. Sometimes, ECCM save your life more than a 1600mm plate. Sometimes, a web allow you to kill your target instead of being killed by it. Sometimes, a cap booster allow you to fire your guns instead of sitting defenseless. Sometimes, a MJD allow you to escape instead of dying to the blob. Sometimes, EWAR ruin the day of your ennemy in a lot more reliable way than pure firepower. And soon, TC will be better than TE... There are ECCM mods for low slots, and we still have to space in the mids for all of those things. I do use sheild tanked vairents of the mega, and I like the idea of five mids. But 8 low slots has me just as excited. Indeed, this new setup will solve several issues I had with armour roaming gang limitations.
You can fit a MWD, MJD, ECCM and Booster into your mids on a Mega. He doesn't seem to get this.
You might have to downgrade your guns a level, but that's not a big deal for the flexibility. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5892
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:03:00 -
[1091] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Oh come on, you know you want to fit the thing with 3 magstabs, 2 TE, 2 nanofibres and a DC and just wreck someone's face with it
Positivly drooling right now.
Some of the armour setups I have just thought of are going to be outragously fun. |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:04:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Domi even got more grid Didn't notice that part, but it could still use a control range bonus and some more drone bay. Why hello there Drone Link Augmentor, how are you this fine morning (I guess an extra 50m drone bay for a touch more utility wouldn't go completely amiss, but I think a lot of people aren't realising just what an unpredictable terror the new domi is.) Well good bye 1k extra power grid, what did I need you for again?
Where exactly does fitting a Drone Link Augmentor cost you 1k grid? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
567
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:05:00 -
[1093] - Quote
R.I.P. Eve Online.
Gallente with more lows than Amarr .. not the same, but MORE!
It is like some freakish bizarro world; Amarr taking on Minmatar kiting and Gallente drone attributes, Gallente taking on Amarr attributes, Minmatar taking on Caldari attributes .. only Caldari seems to be "safe" from this purge of racial distinction which is natural I guess seeing as they are the are shield exclusive with missiles as primary |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:05:00 -
[1094] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Oh come on, you know you want to fit the thing with 3 magstabs, 2 TE, 2 nanofibres and a DC and just wreck someone's face with it
Positivly drooling right now. Some of the armour setups I have just thought of are going to be outragously fun.
Yeah, this thing is looking evil.
I'm still liking the new Dominix too; I wonder if I can get every BS V before Summer? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
835
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:06:00 -
[1095] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Domi even got more grid Didn't notice that part, but it could still use a control range bonus and some more drone bay. Why hello there Drone Link Augmentor, how are you this fine morning (I guess an extra 50m drone bay for a touch more utility wouldn't go completely amiss, but I think a lot of people aren't realising just what an unpredictable terror the new domi is.) Well good bye 1k extra power grid, what did I need you for again? Where exactly does fitting a Drone Link Augmentor cost you 1k grid? Why is 1k extra power grid needed when you take a gun off to put a DLA on? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
kyrieee
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
110
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:06:00 -
[1096] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:None looks at the fact the the Mega got the ROF bonus. Which compared to the pure dmg is like a 2nd dmg mode in the low slot. + it had the utility high slot and 1 more mid for the web or Tracking computer to apply even better that dmg.
Now the Mega is the same as this new Hyperion. Similar tank and dps, more speed, less utility. We really dont need same ships with different looks.
At least if the 8/5/6 is not good than put 7/5/7. In both cases Mega d be an awesome and versatile atack BS.
I would say a lot less utility. A utility high AND a utility mid is sooo good for a ship that will deal as much damage as this baby will. |
Kerdrak
D00M. Northern Coalition.
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:07:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Gallente having a 8 low slot battleship while Amarr don't is something that simply have no sense.
|
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
555
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:07:00 -
[1098] - Quote
I may never fly a Mega again (even though it's exactly what these folks wanted) -áwww.promsrage.com |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:09:00 -
[1099] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
I'm kinda in Shock here these new version look... kinda Epic they got alot of potential!
Too strong Hyperion? Possibly however having a focused rep bonus allso means people should expect it to rep so it's their own jobs to bring Neuts if they wish to counter the Hyperions 2nd bonus and that will quite heavily cripple it so yeah I like these proposed changes! People being too lazy to want to change their current setups is what makes them lose battles! you gotta prepare and change along with the game and meta! :)
Mega: I really like it I will miss the 5 heavy drones but I really like the change!
I'm not sure either will be capable of being a 0.0 Warfare doctrine but they look mutch more usefull now thant hey did 2 days ago :) Shield Mega with only 5 Mids... it's not a Talos! well glad this was realised :) |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
196
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:10:00 -
[1100] - Quote
It's weird, you kinda just made the Hyp into a Mega with a rep bonus (6-7 guns and 1 utility, 7 lows, 5 heavy drones) it just doesn't track as well still, which is one of the main problems with the Hyp.
Then the Mega, which, really has been a 'good' BS for a long time. It's benefits being utility high for neut or remote rep, one of the highest close range damage via 7 decent tracking blasters and 5 heavy drones (prob explosive) - the main problem with the Mega was it could not fit a comparatively good tank to a lot of the other BS without sacrificing a couple hundred DPS which was it's main gimmick. A base HP buff or the 8th low adds that but then you get rid of utility high (and yes people do USE them, who doesn't use it?!?!) and another 110ish DPS from drones.
GallowsCalibrator wrote: (I guess an extra 50m drone bay for a touch more utility wouldn't go completely amiss, but I think a lot of people aren't realising just what an unpredictable terror the new domi is.)
No it's pretty predictable. |
|
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
555
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:12:00 -
[1101] - Quote
@dez The new Hyperion is basically an old Mega with a rep bonus.
should be fun -áwww.promsrage.com |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
196
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:13:00 -
[1102] - Quote
There should be a Features and Ideas Discussion forum but for only people who aren't worthless trash at this game.
Honestly over half the people in this forum just don't have any place discussing balance. |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:13:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Why is 1k extra power grid needed when you take a gun off to put a DLA on?
I'd love to see this fit in your head where you're going with long range guns and long range sentries at once without sacrifice (anyway, with just the sentries and three DDA's you're still pushing 700 ish DPS at 45k from napkin calculations with Gardes IIS, 550 ish at over 100km with Warden IIs).
|
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:13:00 -
[1104] - Quote
CCP Rise:
Question for you. A lot of people are considering the new Domi to be a sentry boat due to the optimal and tracking bonus, but my question deals with heavy drones. You can take the hybrid bonus away, but you can't take the need to brawl at "no escape levels possible" away
All heavy drones have the same optimal and falloff ranges, with just their tracking (and damage types/speed) varying. Is there any chance Heavy drones could have thier optimal/falloff boosted to bring them out of Large smartbomb range when coupled with the Domi's new ship bonus to optimal range? It might be OP, but it would be something worth considering to give the domi a true advantage over the geddon. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
833
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:14:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Wacktopia wrote:CCP Rise wrote:One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal. Making sentries move to return really makes a lot of sense, even if it is at 1km/s or something like that. Having to be stationary, come back to pick up drones or abandon them completely when you can often only carry two sets (Ishtar/Domi/Gila) is a really massive drawback for no real gain vs the alternative weapons systems. They don't do more damage, they have very low tracking, and they can be blown up. Why use them over guns? No ammo... meh. There is simply not enough reason to use sentries in PvP outside of some fairly edge cases at present.. 1) Slowcats - they just dont really move anyway and can carry 1000's of spares. 2) Anti-Falcon - sentries dropped seem to work p. well to clear of falcons if you can get them agressed quickly. 3) POS bashing - so you don't need ammo. There are at present not enough PvP options for sentries below slowcats because of the limitation you highlight.
we are using myrms, gilas end even prophecys to great effect for brawls
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Malcanis - CSM 8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5892
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:14:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:then you get rid of utility high (and yes people do USE them, who doesn't use it?!?!) and another 110ish DPS from drones.
All I ever put into that high was a cyno or a neut and the cyno saw more action than the neut and was more usefull to have, things tend to run out of hull before they run out of cap. An extra low is going to be far more usefull. |
Rubi Jackson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:15:00 -
[1107] - Quote
I thought I would post here to congratulate CCP on the openness with which these updates are taking place. Please keep this up, even if occasionally you have to sift through a thousand nerdy-whine posts - it's an excellent way of doing things.
I eagerly await all of the tiericide changes; even if some i'm not so keen on, the majority are simply excellent!
New Mega and Hype versions seem pretty good; better than the first iteration posted. Please consider giving the Domi a tiny bit of extra powergrid. :)
|
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
196
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:16:00 -
[1108] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:
All heavy drones have the same optimal and falloff ranges, with just their tracking (and damage types/speed) varying. Is there any chance Heavy drones could have thier optimal/falloff boosted to bring them out of Large smartbomb range when coupled with the Domi's new ship bonus to optimal range? It might be OP, but it would be something worth considering to give the domi a true advantage over the geddon.
Drones orbit at the same distance depending on their size. So increasing their optimal doesn't really help because they will still orbit at the same distance it just means when they're mwding in they will hit earlier.
It would be overpowered for drones to have a 6km optimal and orbit at 6km though. You're right. |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:18:00 -
[1109] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:then you get rid of utility high (and yes people do USE them, who doesn't use it?!?!) and another 110ish DPS from drones.
All I ever put into that high was a cyno or a neut and the cyno saw more action than the neut and was more usefull to have, things tend to run out of hull before they run out of cap. An extra low is going to be far more usefull.
Now you will be able to use hyper for that. Because he has one free high slot.
It make sense - Mega fleet attack BS, and hyper... For solo\small-scale with utility slot, 5 med and 5 heavy\sentry AND 175 drone bay :D |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1117
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:22:00 -
[1110] - Quote
Moretic wrote:also, I wanna know what changes they are making to the navy dom :P
ssssh ! CCP might hear you.
I do not want them to 'improve' my favourite ship. This is not a signature. |
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
613
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:23:00 -
[1111] - Quote
The new Hyperion looks very sensible. It's strong on the small scale, it has the cap boosters to run a solid active tank and its guns don't suck too much cap, while retaining the option of a full-gank shield fit. It'll probably see some good use on the fleet scale despite the active bonus but that's fine, with the alpha from nine turrets it'll have a small close-range damage advantage over the Rokh, at the cost of range and tank. I don't think it'll be overpowered, but it should be fairly easy to tone cap and/or fittings down if it is.
New Megathron looks good too. It's a bit odd that the race with the eight-lowslot BS is Gallente though, but I don't think it's a showstopper. Actually I think a perfectly viable Mega could be achieved without moving the highslot to a lowslot, but there you go. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
94
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:26:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Much more impressive this time CCP RISE, although I am a bit fearful as well that you might have stepped over that while line of overpower :P
Lets see.. But this is much more gallente now. Minmatar are a bit more minmatarish as well. We just need to test and ensure all ships are balanced among themselves. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:26:00 -
[1113] - Quote
I really, Really, like the changes to the Hyperion. I don't use the Mega enough to really comment, but from the stats it looks good too. But for the Hype, losing a Gun, gaining some Hybrid Bonus, and gaining a full flight of Heavys is a trade I'll gladly make.
Good Job CCP Rise and the Balance Team!
In not only coming up with a great balance, but in taking the feedback :) |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
835
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:29:00 -
[1114] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Why is 1k extra power grid needed when you take a gun off to put a DLA on?
I'd love to see this fit in your head where you're going with long range guns and long range sentries at once without sacrifice (anyway, with just the sentries and three DDA's you're still pushing 700 ish DPS at 45k from napkin calculations with Gardes IIS, 550 ish at over 100km with Warden IIs). Curator II 1 DLA Bouncer II 2 DLAs Warden II 3 DLAs
That is quite a bit of sacrifice, being as to do this you have to use long range Railgun charges, which penalize tracking and do considerably less damage. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
IceDe4d
Kath's Menagerie Gank for Profit
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:30:00 -
[1115] - Quote
hmm i would like it more if the mega would keep 8 high and gets 7 lows because i feel 8 lowslots for the basic mega is just too much and you still have the navy mega and vindi and they would need changes too if you give the mega 8 lows. It looks like i will fly more hyper in the future if this are the final changes but i have to say the aktiv rep bonus is not that usefull anymore at least for my pvp in low sec. |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:36:00 -
[1116] - Quote
Just updated the Megathron CPU slightly, it had picked up a large increase for the last iteration that I forgot to remove from the new stats. |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2482
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:36:00 -
[1117] - Quote
New version of Mega with 6 slot armor tank, 2 magstabs and both dmg rigs takes it to peak 1340 with Void on overheat (1498 with HH IIs).
Alternatively:
[Megathron, Odyssey] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Hammerhead II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5 Warrior II x5
1253 peak dps, 838 dps w/Null no drones 75.6K EHP, 616 hp/s heated nanite reps (115.4K theory EHP after 8 cycles) 1775 m/s when you floor it
is not bad
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:37:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Why is 1k extra power grid needed when you take a gun off to put a DLA on?
I'd love to see this fit in your head where you're going with long range guns and long range sentries at once without sacrifice (anyway, with just the sentries and three DDA's you're still pushing 700 ish DPS at 45k from napkin calculations with Gardes IIS, 550 ish at over 100km with Warden IIs). Curator II 1 DLA Bouncer II 2 DLAs Warden II 3 DLAs That is quite a bit of sacrifice, being as to do this you have to use long range Railgun charges, which penalize tracking and do considerably less damage.
Not sounding particularly bad to hit 550 @ 100 for 3 highs and drones (Although admittedly, Bouncers seem to be more of a sweet spot.) You've still got 3 - 4 utility highs, which is enough for a potent cap chain with buddies and remote reps, as an example - something other long range battleships simply do not get the option of.
Or, you fill the highs with your favourite weapon system, bring a selection of heavies, use your ample mids for tackle, web MWD, MJD , Cap Injector; And enough lows for a reasonable armour tank + damage mods.
Or go full neut Killdozer.
Etc.
Etc.
The choice is yours! |
culo duro
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:39:00 -
[1119] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
still think that Active bonus on the Hyperion gotta go, i just can't see it being viable for anything more than teeeeny tiny gangs. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
198
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:39:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Roime wrote:New version of Mega with 6 slot armor tank, 2 magstabs and both dmg rigs takes it to peak 1340 with Void on overheat (1498 with HH IIs).
Alternatively:
[Megathron, Odyssey] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Hammerhead II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5 Warrior II x5
1253 peak dps, 838 dps w/Null no drones 75.6K EHP, 616 hp/s heated nanite reps (115.4K theory EHP after 8 cycles) 1775 m/s when you floor it
is not bad
um wtf |
|
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:43:00 -
[1121] - Quote
culo duro wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. still think that Active bonus on the Hyperion gotta go, i just can't see it being viable for anything more than teeeeny tiny gangs.
Eh, the active bonus on the Maelstrom doesn't hurt it any for fleet work. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
835
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:44:00 -
[1122] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Why is 1k extra power grid needed when you take a gun off to put a DLA on?
I'd love to see this fit in your head where you're going with long range guns and long range sentries at once without sacrifice (anyway, with just the sentries and three DDA's you're still pushing 700 ish DPS at 45k from napkin calculations with Gardes IIS, 550 ish at over 100km with Warden IIs). Curator II 1 DLA Bouncer II 2 DLAs Warden II 3 DLAs That is quite a bit of sacrifice, being as to do this you have to use long range Railgun charges, which penalize tracking and do considerably less damage. Not sounding particularly bad to hit 550 @ 100 for 3 highs and drones (Although admittedly, Bouncers seem to be more of a sweet spot.) You've still got 3 - 4 utility highs Which brings me back to my original point, what did it need 1k extra power grid for? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
baltec1
Bat Country
5894
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:46:00 -
[1123] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Which brings me back to my original point, what did it need 1k extra power grid for?
Options. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
199
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:46:00 -
[1124] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Why is 1k extra power grid needed when you take a gun off to put a DLA on?
I'd love to see this fit in your head where you're going with long range guns and long range sentries at once without sacrifice (anyway, with just the sentries and three DDA's you're still pushing 700 ish DPS at 45k from napkin calculations with Gardes IIS, 550 ish at over 100km with Warden IIs). Curator II 1 DLA Bouncer II 2 DLAs Warden II 3 DLAs That is quite a bit of sacrifice, being as to do this you have to use long range Railgun charges, which penalize tracking and do considerably less damage. Not sounding particularly bad to hit 550 @ 100 for 3 highs and drones (Although admittedly, Bouncers seem to be more of a sweet spot.) You've still got 3 - 4 utility highs Which brings me back to my original point, what did it need 1k extra power grid for?
It needed the grid BEFORE these changes so it could fit a proper tank and 425s. or like a heavy capacitor booster.
It doesn't need the grid as much now because no one would ever fit rails on the sentry drone fleet ship.
Having said that it now means people can use neutrons and a proper tank. So yeah.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2482
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:47:00 -
[1125] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:
um wtf
Just trying to play to it's new strengths, it doesn't really buffer tank that well anymore. You need 7 lows and all rigs to get to 133K, leaving you with lackluster 1158 peak dps and 1364m/s max speed.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3047
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:47:00 -
[1126] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Just updated the Megathron CPU slightly, it had picked up a large increase for the last iteration that I forgot to remove from the new stats.
That does hurt. The mega has trouble fitting 7 lows with current Cpu. Guess its going to need cpu rigs for rails + hardeners. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:48:00 -
[1127] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Why is 1k extra power grid needed when you take a gun off to put a DLA on?
I'd love to see this fit in your head where you're going with long range guns and long range sentries at once without sacrifice (anyway, with just the sentries and three DDA's you're still pushing 700 ish DPS at 45k from napkin calculations with Gardes IIS, 550 ish at over 100km with Warden IIs). Curator II 1 DLA Bouncer II 2 DLAs Warden II 3 DLAs That is quite a bit of sacrifice, being as to do this you have to use long range Railgun charges, which penalize tracking and do considerably less damage. Not sounding particularly bad to hit 550 @ 100 for 3 highs and drones (Although admittedly, Bouncers seem to be more of a sweet spot.) You've still got 3 - 4 utility highs Which brings me back to my original point, what did it need 1k extra power grid for?
As always, we all have our play styles... I am happy about the pwg update... I'd actuall prefer if it was given 200 pwg more |
Schmata Bastanold
Silver Octopus Infernal Octopus
692
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:49:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Heh, I am so happy I decided to come out my mother's basement and cross-train into weapon systems other than projectiles :)
Now the only problem will be to grind iskies for all those new toys that are coming this summer but maybe I will follow what one guy on GD wrote and start scamming people instead committing more genocide against those poor red crosses :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:49:00 -
[1129] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote: Eh, the active bonus on the Maelstrom doesn't hurt it any for fleet work.
Becuase of arty weapon with insane alpha and range :) |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
304
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:51:00 -
[1130] - Quote
How much Mega d have dps with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 100 drone bw? Anyone able to calculate?
Taking in consideration this new rof bonus. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
|
culo duro
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:51:00 -
[1131] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:culo duro wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. still think that Active bonus on the Hyperion gotta go, i just can't see it being viable for anything more than teeeeny tiny gangs. Eh, the active bonus on the Maelstrom doesn't hurt it any for fleet work.
Unlike the Maelstrom the Hyperion needs to sacrifice dps for more tank. The maelstrom have also got the huge advantage of being able to dual XL Anci reppers on it, and the 1400mm artys... The Maelstroms got a purpose in fleets, because it can fill out different roles. The Hyperion is just a brawler, with short range blasters, i can't see how it could use the armor rep bonus unless you go solo |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
167
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:52:00 -
[1132] - Quote
These 10% damage bonuses sound to me like you think you can't make it good with a normal 5%.
I'm not really seeing the 'attack' thing here. They align like half a second faster than current BS and go 50m/s faster with mwd. Do I really want to lose a tonne of hp for that? |
culo duro
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:54:00 -
[1133] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:These 10% damage bonuses sound to me like you think you can't make it good with a normal 5%.
I'm not really seeing the 'attack' thing here. They align like half a second faster than current BS and go 50m/s faster with mwd. Do I really want to lose a tonne of hp for that?
It's because it makes up for 1 less turret slot. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:57:00 -
[1134] - Quote
I'm content. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2482
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:57:00 -
[1135] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:How much Mega d have dps with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 100 drone bw? Anyone able to calculate?
Taking in consideration this new rof bonus.
It has only 75mbit/s now, EFT max with one magstab is 1209 dps (2xOgreII 2xHH II 1xHobII, Void, O/H)
937 w/CNAM + 5x HH II cold
621 w/Null
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Nihilim Darth
rota fortunae DarkSide.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:58:00 -
[1136] - Quote
culo duro wrote: It's because it makes up for 1 less turret slot.
2 less turret slot |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
199
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:59:00 -
[1137] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:How much Mega d have dps with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 100 drone bw? Anyone able to calculate?
Taking in consideration this new rof bonus.
Current mega with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 5 ogres is about 1050 dps
New mega with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 4 ogres is about 1030 dps
both with 2 mag stabs its about 5 dps different in favour of current mega
but it actually has 75 m3 drone now
so its 1050 current vs 990
and
1190 vs 1140 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
835
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:00:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:
It needed the grid BEFORE these changes so it could fit a proper tank and 425s. or like a heavy capacitor booster.
It doesn't need the grid as much now because no one would ever fit rails on the sentry drone fleet ship.
Having said that it now means people can use neutrons and a proper tank. So yeah.
Before hand would have been great, depending on what you consider a proper tank, it still lacks powergrid for a neutron fit. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:01:00 -
[1139] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:These 10% damage bonuses sound to me like you think you can't make it good with a normal 5%.
I'm not really seeing the 'attack' thing here. They align like half a second faster than current BS and go 50m/s faster with mwd. Do I really want to lose a tonne of hp for that?
But its still too fast comapred to tempest.. MINMATAR attack ship . THink both shoudl get extra speed up to 130ms |
culo duro
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:02:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Nihilim Darth wrote:culo duro wrote: It's because it makes up for 1 less turret slot.
2 less turret slot
Well long live the new mega... i mean hyperion. |
|
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:02:00 -
[1141] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
Looking good kil2, 6 gun, 7 high 10% dmg per level Brutix Style Bonus was not expected but is pretty much spot on with many of the proposals us vets have been throwing at you. Thanks for listening, 7-5-7 Hyperion with 125m3 bandwidth is going to be rather beast, Looking forward to the improvements.
As for the Mega? 8-4-7 with a ROF and 75m3 is a great change compared to the current iteration which is live on tq. While the loss of 50m3 bandwidth will have an effect on dps, overall I think it's a very fair trade considering the increased speed and agility. Good work sir.
Now about that geddon....
|
Ouya Sfahei
Horizon Corp
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:02:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Ahh, the new Hyperion looks much better now.
I'll trade a little DPS (and less cap usage) to keep that med slot anytime and let's not forget the extra low slot.
Revamped Hyperion looks promising for the Odyssey expansion. |
Eternal Corrosion
I hope you were insured POWERED.
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:04:00 -
[1143] - Quote
i approve these changes, well done for listening Kil2
I will always love LowSec |
Wivabel
Exanimo Inc Unclaimed.
122
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:09:00 -
[1144] - Quote
I am happy now. These changes are great. The only thing that I would argue at this point is switching the roles of the mega and the hyperion since active armor fits the attack role better but I can happily live with these changes.
The Hype may become the scariest small gang BS in eve. It also looks to have the slots to be possible in fleets after the TE nerf those extra mids for possible TCs will be strong. I will have to run some numbers to be sure but it looks promising.
Wiv To be a part of future EVE intrigue check us out. Sov in the south. Small gang pew is what we do when we are-ánot defending our space.-á
Join "Exan-áRecruitment"-áin game |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
362
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:10:00 -
[1145] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
The Hyperion looks nice, but in my opinion that 5th medslot, 7th lowslot and suddenly spare utility slot way outweighs the damage loss and the Hyperion does NOT need 5 heavy drones. 75-100mbit should be more than plenty.
I really liked your first iteration much better and I honestly doesn't see why having only 4 medslots on an armor tanker is so horrible? Yes, I get it, the ship need 2 cap boosters, a MWD and targets preferrably webbed and scrambled - But isn't battleships supposed to have support ships? Anyway as long the Hyperion gets the 7th lowslot and doesn't get to outperform the other races I like the change. Just be carefull not taking the Gallente whines too seriously or you will end up with 2-3 obsolete races and Gallente won't be one of them...
The Megathron - 8 lowslots? You lost me right here... I already lost faith in you from seing the suggested attack battlecruiser changes but if this thing goes live you are not only breaking the Amarr ship trait of having the best armor tankers with the most lowslots but you are also breaking the game in favor of Gallente. The Megathron is already slaughtering people left and right in it's current form. Please make the Megathron back to 8/4/7 with 7 guns or 7/5/7 also with 7 guns.
You do realize that whenever you give a ship less turrets and tweak the damage bonus to compensate you have suddenly created enough slots to severely obsolete the battleships from other races, right? I am very concerned with the Gallente balance against the other 3 races. I liked your first itereation much, much better and this looks like panic control to avoid drama.
That Megathron is an abomination for game balance!! |
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:10:00 -
[1146] - Quote
8 low slot on the megathron ...
pls remove one put one high + 1 turret.
Remove the rate of fire bonus. Add some range bonus (really a good range bonus). 10% optimal and falloff |
MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
167
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:12:00 -
[1147] - Quote
culo duro wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:culo duro wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. still think that Active bonus on the Hyperion gotta go, i just can't see it being viable for anything more than teeeeny tiny gangs. Eh, the active bonus on the Maelstrom doesn't hurt it any for fleet work. Unlike the Maelstrom the Hyperion needs to sacrifice dps for more tank. The maelstrom have also got the huge advantage of being able to dual XL Anci reppers on it, and the 1400mm artys... The Maelstroms got a purpose in fleets, because it can fill out different roles. The Hyperion is just a brawler, with short range blasters, i can't see how it could use the armor rep bonus unless you go solo
Or you run missions in your hyper like I do. The armor rep bonus helps there. Dont just think of the PVP implications of all the ships, there are a lot of people who will only ever use these ships to run level 4 missions |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:12:00 -
[1148] - Quote
New Hyperion should finally be as good as it looks
Mega, i'm not so sure about the utility high never being used, I for one always stuck a nice heavy neut in there. It'll live though, and still do its job well enough.
+1 overall "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
199
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:14:00 -
[1149] - Quote
MainDrain wrote: Or you run missions in your hyper like I do. The armor rep bonus helps there. Dont just think of the PVP implications of all the ships, there are a lot of people who will only ever use these ships to run level 4 missions
There will always be great ships to PvE in. You can't balance with PvE in mind. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3048
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:14:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. The Hyperion looks nice, but in my opinion that 5th medslot, 7th lowslot and suddenly spare utility slot way outweighs the damage loss and the Hyperion does NOT need 5 heavy drones. 75-100mbit should be more than plenty. I really liked your first iteration much better and I honestly doesn't see why having only 4 medslots on an armor tanker is so horrible? Yes, I get it, the ship need 2 cap boosters, a MWD and targets preferrably webbed and scrambled - But isn't battleships supposed to have support ships? Anyway as long the Hyperion gets the 7th lowslot and doesn't get to outperform the other races I like the change. Just be carefull not taking the Gallente whines too seriously or you will end up with 2-3 obsolete races and Gallente won't be one of them... The Megathron - 8 lowslots? You lost me right here... I already lost faith in you from seing the suggested attack battlecruiser changes but if this thing goes live you are not only breaking the Amarr ship trait of having the best armor tankers with the most lowslots but you are also breaking the game in favor of Gallente. The Megathron is already slaughtering people left and right in it's current form. Please make the Megathron back to 8/4/7 with 7 guns or 7/5/7 also with 7 guns. You do realize that whenever you give a ship less turrets and tweak the damage bonus to compensate you have suddenly created enough slots to severely obsolete the battleships from other races, right? I am very concerned with the Gallente balance against the other 3 races. I liked your first itereation much, much better and this looks like panic control to avoid drama. That Megathron is an abomination for game balance!!
Look at its base armor before commenting that it will be the best armor buffer. It has the option of a solid tank or extreme gank now. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1096
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:16:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Meh |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:19:00 -
[1152] - Quote
MainDrain wrote: Or you run missions in your hyper like I do. The armor rep bonus helps there. Dont just think of the PVP implications of all the ships, there are a lot of people who will only ever use these ships to run level 4 missions
There are far far far better ships to run missions in than a hype. PVE should never be the focus of balance, PVP should always be. While many loathe the active rep bonus, It's actually quite useful... While not as potent as a 4% per level resistance bonus, it still has a rather significant impact on survivability, especially in the small scale arena where the Hyperion is clearly designed to rock.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2482
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:19:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:
The Megathron - 8 lowslots? You lost me right here... I already lost faith in you from seing the suggested attack battlecruiser changes but if this thing goes live you are not only breaking the Amarr ship trait of having the best armor tankers with the most lowslots but you are also breaking the game in favor of Gallente. The Megathron is already slaughtering people left and right in it's current form. Please make the Megathron back to 8/4/7 with 7 guns or 7/5/7 also with 7 guns.
You do realize that whenever you give a ship less turrets and tweak the damage bonus to compensate you have suddenly created enough slots to severely obsolete the battleships from other races, right? I am very concerned with the Gallente balance against the other 3 races. I liked your first itereation much, much better and this looks like panic control to avoid drama.
That Megathron is an abomination for game balance!!
No, it's not. While I agree that 8 lows is very un-Gallente, please note that only Raven, Scorpion and Tempest have less armor HP than the new Mega.
The number of lows alone are not enough to make it a heavy armor tanker like Geddon and especially nothing close to the Abaddon.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
98
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:19:00 -
[1154] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. The Hyperion looks nice, but in my opinion that 5th medslot, 7th lowslot and suddenly spare utility slot way outweighs the damage loss and the Hyperion does NOT need 5 heavy drones. 75-100mbit should be more than plenty. I really liked your first iteration much better and I honestly doesn't see why having only 4 medslots on an armor tanker is so horrible? Yes, I get it, the ship need 2 cap boosters, a MWD and targets preferrably webbed and scrambled - But isn't battleships supposed to have support ships? Anyway as long the Hyperion gets the 7th lowslot and doesn't get to outperform the other races I like the change. Just be carefull not taking the Gallente whines too seriously or you will end up with 2-3 obsolete races and Gallente won't be one of them... The Megathron - 8 lowslots? You lost me right here... I already lost faith in you from seing the suggested attack battlecruiser changes but if this thing goes live you are not only breaking the Amarr ship trait of having the best armor tankers with the most lowslots but you are also breaking the game in favor of Gallente. The Megathron is already slaughtering people left and right in it's current form. Please make the Megathron back to 8/4/7 with 7 guns or 7/5/7 also with 7 guns. You do realize that whenever you give a ship less turrets and tweak the damage bonus to compensate you have suddenly created enough slots to severely obsolete the battleships from other races, right? I am very concerned with the Gallente balance against the other 3 races. I liked your first itereation much, much better and this looks like panic control to avoid drama. That Megathron is an abomination for game balance!!
In fact I think Opposite. ALL battleships shoudl ahve their damage bonus increased ALL of them so that they can free 1 high slot to somewhere else. That would be great to makeing battleships used in smaller scale warfare again.
|
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:20:00 -
[1155] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:22:00 -
[1156] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones. And tank with honor?... Ahha-ahha. I got it. |
culo duro
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:23:00 -
[1157] - Quote
MainDrain wrote:culo duro wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:culo duro wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. still think that Active bonus on the Hyperion gotta go, i just can't see it being viable for anything more than teeeeny tiny gangs. Eh, the active bonus on the Maelstrom doesn't hurt it any for fleet work. Unlike the Maelstrom the Hyperion needs to sacrifice dps for more tank. The maelstrom have also got the huge advantage of being able to dual XL Anci reppers on it, and the 1400mm artys... The Maelstroms got a purpose in fleets, because it can fill out different roles. The Hyperion is just a brawler, with short range blasters, i can't see how it could use the armor rep bonus unless you go solo Or you run missions in your hyper like I do. The armor rep bonus helps there. Dont just think of the PVP implications of all the ships, there are a lot of people who will only ever use these ships to run level 4 missions
CCP have said it, Eve is primary about PVP, besides they're plenty of alternatives for PvE, and it won't destroy the hyperion if it removed. |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:23:00 -
[1158] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18.
Apparently that's a droneboat thing. See Myrm and Vexor "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
836
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:23:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18. Chalk that up to someone's idea of "utility drones" Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
457
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:24:00 -
[1160] - Quote
The Megathron's never looked as distinctive as it does now. No longer competeting against the Talos or even Hyperion, it becomes the principle Gun Ship with the best slot layout for an armour sniper, with the agility and sensors to match.
Although plated armour and speed don't synergise well and I would have prefered the hyperion being the attack ship, this stops the megathron completely butting heads with BeamLand(tm).
Would never have expected the Art Dept to allow the hyperion lose turrets but I guess that's the best way to keep the most people happy. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7425
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:26:00 -
[1161] - Quote
oh good a pointless launcher slot on the hyperion mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:26:00 -
[1162] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
Hyperion - I love you CCP Rise!
Megathron - meh. Still has RoF bonus, and the drone bay got nerfed bad. Also, 8/4/7 slot layout is working fine, why insist on changing it? |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:26:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. The Dominix needs a role bonus of +100% increase to Drone Control Range, it seriously lacks control range for most sentries even without the use of Omnidirectional Tacking Units. May be not +100%, +50% would probably cut it for most cases. I'm actively using sentries right now, and only Wardens have that far of the optimal to require control beyond 80km. But some buf to sensor range would also come in handy. Say, +10% sensor range and +50% drone control range. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
542
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:26:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18. By design. Drone ships have 1 less slot. |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:27:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:The Megathron's never looked as distinctive as it does now. No longer competeting against the Talos or even Hyperion, it becomes the principle Gun Ship with the best slot layout for an armour sniper, with the agility and sensors to match.
Although plated armour and speed don't synergise well and I would have prefered the hyperion being the attack ship, this stops the megathron completely butting heads with BeamLand(tm).
Would never have expected the Art Dept to allow the hyperion lose turrets but I guess that's the best way to keep the most people happy.
Yeah they need to shuffle some things around. It makes more sense for the Hyperion to be fast and for the passive tanking ship (the mega) to have the larger buffer of the two. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:29:00 -
[1166] - Quote
wallenbergaren wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:The Megathron's never looked as distinctive as it does now. No longer competeting against the Talos or even Hyperion, it becomes the principle Gun Ship with the best slot layout for an armour sniper, with the agility and sensors to match.
Although plated armour and speed don't synergise well and I would have prefered the hyperion being the attack ship, this stops the megathron completely butting heads with BeamLand(tm).
Would never have expected the Art Dept to allow the hyperion lose turrets but I guess that's the best way to keep the most people happy. Yeah they need to shuffle some things around. It makes more sense for the Hyperion to be fast and for the passive tanking ship (the mega) to have the larger buffer of the two.
They COMBAT hyperion is alreeady more agile and almsot as fast and the ATTACK minmatar boat! Making it even faster woul be WAY overpowereed |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:29:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:How much Mega d have dps with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 100 drone bw? Anyone able to calculate?
Taking in consideration this new rof bonus. Current mega with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 5 ogres is about 1050 dps New mega with 7 neutrons 1 mag and 4 ogres is about 1030 dps both with 2 mag stabs its about 5 dps different in favour of current mega but it actually has 75 m3 drone now so its 1050 current vs 990 and 1190 vs 1140
I was wondering about if the Mega gets rolled back to 8/5/6 with 100 drone bw. Dps seems OK with comparison to the TQ one we get more speed and 1+ mid slot. Which imo makes the Mega a really good boat.
+ with the option of a shield gank/run games LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
836
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:32:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. The Dominix needs a role bonus of +100% increase to Drone Control Range, it seriously lacks control range for most sentries even without the use of Omnidirectional Tacking Units. May be not +100%, +50% would probably cut it for most cases. I'm actively using sentries right now, and only Wardens have that far of the optimal to require control beyond 80km. But some buf to sensor range would also come in handy. Say, +10% sensor range and +50% drone control range. Yes 100% was a far cry, and would be op.
I would also like to comment about the drone bay of the Armageddon and the Dominix, with the same bandwidth we can only look to carriers for reference as to the comparison of the two Archon has a Drone bay of 80,000. Fighters have 200 times the volume of heavy drones. Reducing by a proportional volume would give the Armageddon a drone bay of 400m3 Thanatos has a Drone bay of 100,000. By the same volume reduction it would give the Dominix a drone bay of 500m3 Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2483
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:32:00 -
[1169] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18. By design. Drone ships have 1 less slot.
This is somewhat justified on double-damage bonused hulls, but not on purely drone-oriented ships. Dominix could now well have it's missing slot back.
Another way to fix this would be to extend drone bonus to all drone effects, to actually make the mythical "drone utility" a reality. Halve ECM drone base strength while you are at it. This would also differentiate the Domi and Geddon, one would be a true drone boat, other a nasty ghetto Bhaal.
Also, I see no reason to not extend the native drone control range of Domi now to better suit it's sentry drone role.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
457
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:32:00 -
[1170] - Quote
wallenbergaren wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:The Megathron's never looked as distinctive as it does now. No longer competeting against the Talos or even Hyperion, it becomes the principle Gun Ship with the best slot layout for an armour sniper, with the agility and sensors to match.
Although plated armour and speed don't synergise well and I would have prefered the hyperion being the attack ship, this stops the megathron completely butting heads with BeamLand(tm).
Would never have expected the Art Dept to allow the hyperion lose turrets but I guess that's the best way to keep the most people happy. Yeah they need to shuffle some things around. It makes more sense for the Hyperion to be fast and for the passive tanking ship (the mega) to have the larger buffer of the two. An active tanking Hyperion is faster than a plated/trimarked Megathron. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
|
Serith Ellecon
Internet Spaceships Initiates Tribal Band
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:33:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Quote:Hyperion:
Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve. From 10 effective turrets (8+25%) to 9 (6+50%) is not a major change, and everything else looks very positive. And the utility high can be used for a launcher in max dps setups, a neut, nos, or other fun things to aid the dedicated brawler role. I may have to buy one of these now :)
Quote:Megathron:
With the Hyperion moving to more of a combat/utility ship via its drones, heavy mid-slot allocation, and spare high, we felt the mega could now afford to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat. Instead of the former 8/5/6 utility focused set up, we now have a 7/4/8 hybrid damage machine that has sacrificed its utility high (which was often unused) to gain another low - giving it more access to damage, damage application/projection, or tank. It stays in its attack role and therefor retains the previously described increases to speed and agility. This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately.
Yes. Yes. Oh god yes! Despite being someone who almost always used the utility high (usually for a drone link augmenter ) I find these changes entirely positive. Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
457
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:33:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Roime wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18. By design. Drone ships have 1 less slot. This is somewhat justified on double-damage bonused hulls, but not on purely drone-oriented ships. Dominix could now well have it's missing slot back. Another way to fix this would be to extend drone bonus to all drone effects, to actually make the mythical "drone utility" a reality. Halve ECM drone base strength while you are at it. This would also differentiate the Domi and Geddon, one would be a true drone boat, other a nasty ghetto Bhaal. Also, I see no reason to not extend the native drone control range of Domi now to better suit it's sentry drone role. Pretty much. Add one of those changes to the domi and we're done. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
362
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:34:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: Look at its base armor before commenting that it will be the best armor buffer. It has the option of a solid tank or extreme gank now.
Extreme gank is way too extreme as Megathron already annihilate anything within range. People will always find ways to abuse dps in a way that doesn't make the game any better. And trust me you can get a sweet tank out of the Mega with 8 lowslots and still hurt people with ease... |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3048
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:35:00 -
[1174] - Quote
I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
274
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:40:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Extreme gank is way too extreme as Megathron already annihilate anything within range. People will always find ways to abuse dps in a way that doesn't make the game any better. And trust me you can get a sweet tank out of the Mega with 8 lowslots and still hurt people with ease... People don't seem to understank nor see that Blasters + dmg bonus + 1 MFS = the mightest weapon in the galaxy. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5894
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:40:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: Look at its base armor before commenting that it will be the best armor buffer. It has the option of a solid tank or extreme gank now.
Extreme gank is way too extreme as Megathron already annihilate anything within range. People will always find ways to abuse dps in a way that doesn't make the game any better. And trust me you can get a sweet tank out of the Mega with 8 lowslots and still hurt people with ease...
Most of the time a mega is shooting null. Its not often you get a fight that takes place in perfect void range agaist targets you can hit for full effect.
Extreme gank requires extreme close range and nobody out there will let you get close to them or stay still if they can help it. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:40:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18.
Drone ships bro, Drone ships. -1 slot for drone ships has been the model of balance for an extremely long time. While there are some exceptions atm, expect those exceptions to disappear in the near future.
|
Maximille Biagge
The Eidolon Foundation
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:40:00 -
[1178] - Quote
CCP Rise delivers! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2483
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:41:00 -
[1179] - Quote
And plated Hype has a lot thicker buffer than Mega.
I think LAAR+plate+active rigs will be the ideal way to tank this version of the Mega, it is rather fast (1775m/s, 11s non-MWD align) and probably has enough buffer to last for 8 rep cycles. Especially with T2 LAAR, to be introduced in winter expansion 2024. Standard Exile, heat and a fleetmate in a BC with Passive Defense II gives it 911 hp/s reps per second, resulting in 59K EHP without speed penalty.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
836
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:41:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Maximille Biagge wrote:CCP Rise delivers! Was it Pizza? The Gallente community seems to still be divided. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:43:00 -
[1181] - Quote
Why not make the Megathron into a combat BS and the Hyperion an attack BS?
Consider: *The Megathron with a utility high, good dronebay (beautifully modeled on the hull I might add), more capacitor, more fittings and more ehp plus double rate of fire and tracking gun bonuses (no wasted hull bonus in gangs with RR) would make a good combat battleship even with only 7 lows and would be more in keeping with the classic ship role.
While the Hyperion uses active reps so it's doesn't need as much raw hp, plus it uses active tanking rigs rather than trimarks which suits an attack battleship better due to the higher overall speed. It's 8 turrets and 8/5/6 layout allows it to both do a mean active armour tank and a shield dps gankboat. Active tanking is more suitable for small gangs and solo where the increased agility of an attack designation would be appreciated.
I don't think these current changes are that bad in regards to gameplay, but they are aesthetically unsatisfying. We'll have a Megathron with an impressive looking dronebay that has barely has any drones, and an awkward looking Hyperion with 6 turrets and 8 mounts.
You changed the Vexor and the Thorax roles around once already, consider doing the same here.
Another question: What does a turret fitted armour dominix do with six mid slots given that it doesn't really need any omnidirectional tracking links? Why not give the Dominix a different second bonus (rather than tracking & optimal) and just let players fit omnis if they want that? |
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:44:00 -
[1182] - Quote
While I love the Dominix changes and want the bonus to stay, I have one thing to say... Armageddon is the new Dominix. You took one of the Dominix's primary uses, and gave the bonus to the Armageddon. Ugh.
Don't fly the Mega or Hyperion so no input on them other than something needs to be done to the Hyperion. I think I've only ever seen two in space. |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
100
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:48:00 -
[1183] - Quote
God damn it, why did you put the megas utility high to a low slot? Please put it on the mids, please please please. It doesn't need more lows, it needs another mid. The problem with the previous changes was taking away the low for a mid. Taking the high and putting it on the mid would be much better.
Hype change is finally good, it'll still diaf to tier 3 bc's x 3, but at least it'll do it in style. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
Blanche Lee
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:53:00 -
[1184] - Quote
I think previous Megathron is good, attack and defense, and so on conform to the characteristics of gallente, also not especially well in the actual performance and the bad. So there is no changes necessary.
|
Demica Diaz
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:53:00 -
[1185] - Quote
Lovely changes, going to train into Hyperion after Proteus is maxed out in every corner. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:55:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:Why not make the Megathron into a combat BS and the Hyperion an attack BS?
Consider: *The Megathron with a utility high, good dronebay (beautifully modeled on the hull I might add), more capacitor, more fittings and more ehp plus double rate of fire and tracking gun bonuses (no wasted hull bonus in gangs with RR) would make a good combat battleship even with only 7 lows and would be more in keeping with the classic ship role.
While the Hyperion uses active reps so it's doesn't need as much raw hp, plus it uses active tanking rigs rather than trimarks which suits an attack battleship better due to the higher overall speed. It's 8 turrets and 8/5/6 layout allows it to both do a mean active armour tank and a shield dps gankboat. Active tanking is more suitable for small gangs and solo where the increased agility of an attack designation would be appreciated.
I don't think these current changes are that bad in terms oif gameplay, but they are aesthetically unsatisfying. We'll have a Megathron with an impressive looking dronebay that has barely has any drones, and an awkward looking Hyperion with 6 turrets and 8 mounts.
You changed the Vexor and the Thorax roles around once already, consider doing the same here.
Another question: What does a turret fitted armour dominix do with six mid slots given that it doesn't really need any omnidirectional tracking links? Why not give the Dominix a different second bonus to tracking & optimal and just let players fit omnis if they want that?
tank bonus = combat variant. tracking = attack variant.
hyperion cant be attack battleship with tanking bonus |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:56:00 -
[1187] - Quote
CCP, you may want to lock this thread, and Start a new one with the new changes.
You have 59 pages of people saying "God wtf Gallente BS's are dead".
|
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:56:00 -
[1188] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18. By design. Drone ships have 1 less slot. Then make it 5/5/8 for god's blessing. Or 5/6/7, if you want more utility, than tank or damage. |
JamesCLK
302
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:57:00 -
[1189] - Quote
I want that Mega in so many ways right now... Malcanis, Mynnna and Ripard Teg for CSM 8! |
Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:58:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:
hyperion cant be attack battleship with tanking bonus
But it's only a tank bonus if you actually use an active tank with it. You might use it as a fast shield gankboat, or a small gang/solo fast battleship with the active tank in place of RR, which seem to suit an attack role. If used in a larger fleet it will simply be fitted with a passive tank and recieve remote reps so it won't, in that context, have a tank bonus at all. |
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Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
142
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:03:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Well this all looks fairly interesting and certainly appreciate CCP addressing the concerns laid out. Overall these look fairly solid though we'll have to see how it all works out once they come out on Sisi.
1) Hyperion looks much better. While pound for pound it may be a bit stronger compared to other BS's, I think its ok due to the way its used in small gangs and its lack of mobility make this a fine trade off. How often you ever see a BS 1 v 1 anyways? So overall I look forward to using it. At the end of the day when its active tanked its dps is rather weak and having to use small guns makes it still very niche. The shield tanked version may be a bit of an issue, but those die pretty quick anyways with that paper tank.
2) The Mega. Wow, 8 bottom slots. Interesting. Though I'm not sure how it will pan out but I suspect its not going to be as uber as people think due to fitting space but I haven't worked it out yet so I could be wrong. For those complaining about the bump to the Mega's speed and making it too fast, especially in comparison to the Mael, this fit obviously plays to buffer armor and once you throw those 3 tri-marks and plates on its still a slow cow. And its DPS projection is still weak made worse with the drone reduction. I'll reserve judgement until I can start playing with all the fittings but I think the APOC will be the boat of choice. Insane range and Mega tracking with Scorch. The tracking is what really made the Mega sweet. APOC is now just OMG awesome. By the way it cracks me up when people use void as the ammo to talk DPS. At least when you do please note range and tracking speed of your guns when you do so. A boat can have a million DPS in this game and it doesn't matter a whiff if it cannot apply it effectively.
3) Domi... very torn. I mean the whole RR Domi thing can be fun and with sentries it will be cool, but if your going to spend the isk, why not just alpha stuff in Mael's? They are all going to cost the same and once you put all those ridiculously expensive sentries into a Domi it will probably be the most expensive overall to fit (just guessing.) and none of the draw backs. I guess for killing structures this will be a good boat? Seems more PVE really oriented really. meh. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:05:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit.
Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives |
Kenrailae
Starwinders SCUM.
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:07:00 -
[1193] - Quote
ZOMG That Megathron is the sexiest thing I've ever seen in eve ever! TY TY TY TY TY! :D |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
836
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:07:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives Don't balance a ship around dead space, faction and officer mods. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:08:00 -
[1195] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives Don't balance a ship around dead space, faction and officer mods.
Yeah, lets not balance a ship around available content... With this argument, we may as well balance everything with t1.
If you're having cpu issues, just like the mega and geddon have had in the past, go and fit a c-type adaptive instead of a t2 eanm. It pretty much solves the problem. If you're afraid of risking a "cheap" dead space module then go ahead and fit a co-proc. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
836
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:10:00 -
[1196] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives Don't balance a ship around dead space, faction and officer mods. Yeah, lets not balance a ship around available content... With this argument, we may as well balance every with t1. If you balance the ship around dead space, faction and officer mods then the ship has to use them to be effective, and that sets an unacceptable barrier for vets vs. noobs. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
JamesCLK
302
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:11:00 -
[1197] - Quote
Something just occurred to me... Would a mass reduction role bonus for Attack Battleships be out of place? Malcanis, Mynnna and Ripard Teg for CSM 8! |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:13:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives Don't balance a ship around dead space, faction and officer mods. Yeah, lets not balance a ship around available content... With this argument, we may as well balance every with t1. If you balance the ship around dead space, faction and officer mods then the ship has to use them to be effective, and that sets an unacceptable barrier for vets vs. noobs.
except that isk has nothing to do with being a vet or noob and a c-type dead space adaptive takes less SP to use than a t2 eanm. c-type adaptive has been a stable cpu saving module since like forever.
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David Kir
Pixel Navigators Hostile Work Environment.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:13:00 -
[1199] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives Don't balance a ship around dead space, faction and officer mods. Yeah, lets not balance a ship around available content... With this argument, we may as well balance every with t1.
Exactly! I want my Guristas Shuttle balanced around the Rattlesnake! Oh, true, and my Rifter balanced with the Moros!
Oh come on, fitting C-types should not be a prerequisite to being able to properly fit a ship.
Deadspace/faction/officer modules are the icing on the cake, not the wheat it's made with... |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:14:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives Don't balance a ship around dead space, faction and officer mods. Yeah, lets not balance a ship around available content... With this argument, we may as well balance every with t1. If you balance the ship around dead space, faction and officer mods then the ship has to use them to be effective, and that sets an unacceptable barrier for vets vs. noobs.
Well then use a T2 ANP, christ |
|
Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:15:00 -
[1201] - Quote
We should base ship balance on requiring the use of c-type modules that save a whopping 3 CPU over T2. |
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:18:00 -
[1202] - Quote
If only the new mega had just a little bit more CPU...
(Otherwise, awesome changes) |
Jadiss
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:18:00 -
[1203] - Quote
Liked the 8 turret Hyperion more. (With 6 turret it looks bad imho)
How about keeping the turrets and tweaking the bonuses instead?
-keep 5 %/lvl hybrid damage bonus -increase armor rep to 10%/lvl -make it affect both local and (incoming)remote -add cap need bonus to repair lets say 10 % less cap / lvl
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3049
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:21:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I'm toying with the new Mega atm - the ship is still extremely CPU starved, but the new layout is incredible. If only it could take full advantage of all its slots. CPU rigs hurt to fit. Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives
You can't overheat adaptives. Building it for fleets. It needs to be capable of overheating its tank when primaried or bombed for that to work. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2438
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:24:00 -
[1205] - Quote
The Hyperion shouldn't have to lose its eighth hi-slot. Look at the model. Having eight turrets is literally modelled into it. I'm OK with having the Megathron losing some drone capability and losing its launcher slots but you can't take away the Hyperion's eighth turret. It'll look wonky as hell.
The rate of fire bonus on the Megathron still needs to be addressed, as it causes a lot of issues. Mane 614
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5896
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:27:00 -
[1206] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:The Hyperion shouldn't have to lose its eighth hi-slot. Look at the model. Having eight turrets is literally modelled into it. I'm OK with having the Megathron losing some drone capability and losing its launcher slots but you can't take away the Hyperion's eighth turret. It'll look wonky as hell.
The rate of fire bonus on the Megathron still needs to be addressed, as it causes a lot of issues.
Its losing two turrets so it wont be wonky at all. |
Kenshaiso
BIue Flint Tribal Band
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:29:00 -
[1207] - Quote
Most of the Gallente changes make no sense
Giving the mega an extra mid is handy for that eccm, but as previously stated dual booster active setups will still fail because acitve armour reps are ****. (AAR's are even worse imo)
The hyper has now been made even worse - losing a mid means those realy fielded active setups wont have enough cap. why not get rid of the active bonus.... it makes no sense... ahhh!
I dont understand why the Gallente are the only race not to have an 8 gun platform thats any good for 'ship o the line' doctrines. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5896
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:31:00 -
[1208] - Quote
Kenshaiso wrote:Most of the Gallente changes make no sense Giving the mega an extra mid is handy for that eccm, but as previously stated dual booster active setups will still fail because acitve armour reps are ****. (AAR's are even worse imo) The hyper has now been made even worse - losing a mid means those realy fielded active setups wont have enough cap. why not get rid of the active bonus.... it makes no sense... ahhh! I dont understand why the Gallente are the only race not to have an 8 gun platform thats any good for 'ship o the line' doctrines.
Go back, read it again, and start over. |
Kenshaiso
BIue Flint Tribal Band
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:33:00 -
[1209] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kenshaiso wrote:Most of the Gallente changes make no sense Giving the mega an extra mid is handy for that eccm, but as previously stated dual booster active setups will still fail because acitve armour reps are ****. (AAR's are even worse imo) The hyper has now been made even worse - losing a mid means those realy fielded active setups wont have enough cap. why not get rid of the active bonus.... it makes no sense... ahhh! I dont understand why the Gallente are the only race not to have an 8 gun platform thats any good for 'ship o the line' doctrines. Go back, read it again, and start over.
Hahaha yeah im sperging, just re-read it and wow i obviously cant read! (hides in corner in shame) |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:38:00 -
[1210] - Quote
2 questions
1) would you build a fleet doctrine on these new ships 2) would you fly them and would they work.. |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2485
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:43:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Rise,
what was the original reason to change the Mega?
Does it achieve something now that it couldn't before?
What is it supposed to do?
I would say a) leave the slot layout as it is currently b) go back to 7+1 - 5 - 6 as it is more Gallente than this Amarr clone without the armor HP or fittings to use rails & tank.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
StoneCold
Somali Coast Guard Authority
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:45:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Quote: Megathron:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
7 High, 4 Mid, 8 Low - i like it. If there is anything you want to change on the blap-a-thron from this point please only touch the dronebay. I used 5 heavy drones on the mega, but will be happy if i don-¦t have to fool around with drones while dakka-dakka. Also it got enough room for drones to fight off small and fast things.
Not sure how i feel about the loss of the utility high, i always brought a heavy neut with me. For Hire Psychotic Monk for CSM |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
142
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:46:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Kenshaiso wrote:Most of the Gallente changes make no sense Giving the mega an extra mid is handy for that eccm, but as previously stated dual booster active setups will still fail because acitve armour reps are ****. (AAR's are even worse imo) The hyper has now been made even worse - losing a mid means those realy fielded active setups wont have enough cap. why not get rid of the active bonus.... it makes no sense... ahhh! I dont understand why the Gallente are the only race not to have an 8 gun platform thats any good for 'ship o the line' doctrines.
There are low slots mods for ECCM. it didn't lose a mid.
The Mega's problem as I can see is now a CPU one. I like the slot layout, but not sure if has the CPU for it. Not much point gaining a low, just to have to put a CPU upgrade, but struggling to replicate this in EFT so not sure. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7425
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:47:00 -
[1214] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Yeah, lets not balance a ship around available content... With this argument, we may as well balance everything with t1.
If you're having cpu issues, just like the mega and geddon have had in the past, go and fit a c-type adaptive instead of a t2 eanm. It pretty much solves the problem. If you're afraid of risking a "cheap" dead space module then go ahead and fit a co-proc.
Balancing ships around deadspace mods is dumb for a number of reasons. C-type ANPs are cheap but they're not readily available and their price is terribly unpredictable.
We rarely even put named T1 mods in our fleet doctrines, save for meta MWDs, much less faction/deadspace simply because they're highly vulnerable to hostile buyouts and the rush of buyers will destroy availability. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:47:00 -
[1215] - Quote
After sitting in EFT with these stats, for the love of god, someone send a i7 to the Gallente people for reverse-engineering! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2486
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:48:00 -
[1216] - Quote
StoneCold wrote:
Not sure how i feel about the loss of the utility high, i always brought a heavy neut with me.
Just like everyone else since the dawn of the capsuleer. Heavy neut is/was one of the things that justified a Mega instead of a Proteus.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
274
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:48:00 -
[1217] - Quote
Roime wrote:Rise,
what was the original reason to change the Mega?
Does it achieve something now that it couldn't before?
What is it supposed to do?
I would say a) leave the slot layout as it is currently on TQ b) if you just really really have to change it for undisclosed reasons, please go back to 7+1 - 5 - 6 as it is more Gallente than this Amarr clone without the armor HP or fittings to use rails & tank. This a thousand times. |
Rush Majors
Combat Salvaged Byproducts Inc
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:50:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Hyperion is looking good, really, really good. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
837
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:52:00 -
[1219] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
You adjusted the Power Grid on both up for the Dominix and down for the Armageddon, the end result for that, the Armageddon is still better.
You could have easily given the Armageddon 100Mbps of bandwidth and 400m3 drone bay and left the Dominix bandwidth and drone bay alone. That would follow suit with the lower bandwidth but bigger drone bay. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:53:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Roime wrote: Another way to fix this would be to extend drone bonus to all drone effects, to actually make the mythical "drone utility" a reality. Halve ECM drone base strength while you are at it. This would also differentiate the Domi and Geddon, one would be a true drone boat, other a nasty ghetto Bhaal.
Also, I see no reason to not extend the native drone control range of Domi now to better suit it's sentry drone role.
Yes. This essentially does what having +drone control / + bandwidth beyond 5 drones had accomplished in the past.
I can only speak for myself when I say that when I picked droneboats to fly, it's because of the additional utility in swapping out drone sizes, and utility drones as the situation is needed and this gives the boat identity and purpose.
If it's just going to be a snipe platform, why not pick another ship to do that with that doesn't have all the weaknesses of sentries such as bomb/smartbomb vulnerability, immobility and a good chance of leaving them behind in a hectic encounter?
I'm a little worried however that CCP Rise's new found role will make him hesitant to approach such interesting changes such as revisiting +bandwidth or utility drone strength (which would have much farther reaching implications than the Domi), and simply flip a few slot numbers and call it a day. |
|
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1614
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:02:00 -
[1221] - Quote
+1 for the new hype/mega changes :) |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1597
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:04:00 -
[1222] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:+1 for the new hype/mega changes :)
+2 for a non-crap hyper and a real drone boat Domi :) .
|
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics K162
60
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:11:00 -
[1223] - Quote
+1 |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:12:00 -
[1224] - Quote
I love the revised Megathron changes, and while I'm disappointed to see the Hyperion stuck on active tanking it's still encouraging to see CCP is open to revising these sorts of changes after feedback. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1597
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:15:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Gaara's sniper wrote:multibox fleet of logi-dominixes, here i come!
i already been doin that LOL.
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:16:00 -
[1226] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
I think "Sentry" drones should orbit the parent ship unless the parent ship MWDs away :). realistic I dunno, but would be cool to watch.
|
luredivino
Juice Indicate
22
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:19:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Sad that the dominix was nerfed, but the changes to the other two should be interesting |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
614
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:20:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:CCP Rise wrote: One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
I think "Sentry" drones should orbit the parent ship unless the parent ship MWDs away :). realistic I dunno, but would be cool to watch.
It would also wreck their own tracking.
Keep them stationary when deployed, just give them a few hundred m/s of return-to-drone bay speed. |
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:20:00 -
[1229] - Quote
Roime wrote:Rise,
what was the original reason to change the Mega?
Does it achieve something now that it couldn't before?
What is it supposed to do?
I would say a) leave the slot layout as it is currently on TQ b) if you just really really have to change it for undisclosed reasons, please go back to 7+1 - 5 - 6 as it is more Gallente than this Amarr clone without the armor HP or fittings to use rails & tank.
CCP Rise, I'd really like to see an answer to that. Basically you have made it worse.
I suppose your brains itches to make changes, but can't you simple leave the Megathron intact as the Maelstrom? Or just adjust some mass/velocity/etc, i.e. everything NOT CONNECTED with slot layout? |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:21:00 -
[1230] - Quote
To anyone saying that the Hype is now OP, you're wrong :p
It will be very deadly at 0, but being a blaster boat it's damage projection drops fast, and that will even it out with the other races Battleships imho.
Losing two turrets is sad, but with the increased damage bonus (and the drones) it evens out well, at reduced cap and ammo usage.. Both of which the Hype loves to chew through :)
Nope I am very happy with these changes, and it means we might start to see the Hype in greater use.. The only places I've seen it now is tower bashes, and Incursions. She might become a much more viable fleet ship and mission boat. |
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1297
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:22:00 -
[1231] - Quote
I still think the Dominix needs a larger drone bay to fit with its "drone boat" moniker. Given it is a battleship, so it will generally be fielding large drones, you don't get to bring very much variety with only 375m3 |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:23:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:CCP Rise wrote: One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
I think "Sentry" drones should orbit the parent ship unless the parent ship MWDs away :). realistic I dunno, but would be cool to watch.
Tether the sentry drones to the Dominix/boat.. yes
Of course if the ships moving, the sentries will have some issues with tracking (transversal, ships moving, sentries moving, etc).
Give the sentries 2 options (I believe they already exist...
Orbit, orbits your dominix, tethered to it, where you go, it goes.
Stay. Leaves the sentries where they are while you move your domi (move away etc).
Going to be costly drones to lose, but does give the domi a extra role.
Warp domi in at 80km, launch sentries, set to "stay", MJD domi away 100km, watch opponent decide what to blow up first, your sentries or your domi.
Its a interesting proposition.... and oddly enough something the domi can already do (just that people don't like putting 8 to 10 million on the field to instantly lose/abandon.
Small loss I suppose.
|
Dani Lizardov
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:25:00 -
[1233] - Quote
-1 for Mega Changes
I prefer to see a new setup for this ship!
I was confused 1st when I saw the 5 Mid slots idea... Thinking: Shield Mega, will it work?
But now this is just horrible! 8x low slots ? Why? To over brick tank it ? -1x High slot? Because it was unused ???? Yea maybe by scrubs with poor fitting skills ....
I do not like the new Mega. Looks like Brick with less dmg then the old one.
CCP Rise please stop reading, what this fools are posting here! A total change and New concepts and Fits, are far more interesting and exiting. In that note... A shield Mega will defiantly be something FRESH...
|
Denuo Secus
160
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:26:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Like the Hyperion changes, it's awesome.
Regarding the Mega, quoting my opinion from a solo/very small gang perspective:
Denuo Secus wrote:I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.
We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.
All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?
Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea.
The newest iteration of the Mega makes it a nice fleet boat now maybe, but it lacks for solo/small gang stuff. Lost a lot flexibility. Unfortunately the Mega is the fast BS of the line at the same time.
So we have an attack BS without much flexibility and a combat BS with alot of flexibility. This seems a bit strange for me since speed is an important factor for small scale skirmish warfare. The Mega should keep its flexibility (med slots + tool slot). |
Hulasikaly Wada
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:28:00 -
[1235] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Jack Miton wrote:+1 for the new hype/mega changes :) +2 for a non-crap hyper and a real drone boat Domi :) .
+2 here too
Hula
|
Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession
146
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:28:00 -
[1236] - Quote
+1 for the Mega changes
Thank you most kindly
*Bows* |
baltec1
Bat Country
5898
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:37:00 -
[1237] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:
The newest iteration of the Mega makes it a nice fleet boat now maybe, but it lacks for solo/small gang stuff. Lost a lot flexibility. Unfortunately the Mega is the fast BS of the line at the same time.
So we have an attack BS without much flexibility and a combat BS with alot of flexibility. This seems a bit strange for me since speed is an important factor for small scale skirmish warfare. The Mega should keep its flexibility (med slots + tool slot).
Sorry but the new mega is a great deal more flexable than the old one. That high slot only ever had one of three mods in it and two of them would be out of range most of the time.
That extra low means you can fit much more usefull things for small gang roams but also gives you the options for large fleets. |
Lenier Chenal
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:37:00 -
[1238] - Quote
Dani Lizardov wrote:-1 for Mega Changes
I prefer to see a new setup for this ship!
I was confused 1st when I saw the 5 Mid slots idea... Thinking: Shield Mega, will it work?
But now this is just horrible! 8x low slots ? Why? To over brick tank it ? -1x High slot? Because it was unused ???? Yea maybe by scrubs with poor fitting skills ....
I do not like the new Mega. Looks like Brick with less dmg then the old one.
CCP Rise please stop reading, what this fools are posting here! A total change and New concepts and Fits, are far more interesting and exiting. In that note... A shield Mega will defiantly be something FRESH...
You're quite dense if you think this mega has less DPS than the old one.
|
Saelyth Nightwish
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:39:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Quote:If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Yea, im a bit worried about it being overpowered too. 10% bonus might be a tad much (maybe 7.5)? Also im not sure i like the larger drone bay. I kind of have the feeling that if it isn't a drone focused ship, it shouldn't have any more space than it has bandwidth. Though it IS a Gallente ship, but ive always looked at it as a more gun focus than drone. I dono. I guess i could be ok with it. Would allow abit of versatility.
Tho i do think it would be weird for the ship to have 8 spots on the model, and only be using 6 of them. The Myrm had a similar change and it just looks weird now with the guns on it. |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:39:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:Like the Hyperion changes, it's awesome. Regarding the Mega, quoting my opinion from a solo/very small gang perspective: Denuo Secus wrote:I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.
We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.
All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?
Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea. The newest iteration of the Mega makes it a nice fleet boat now maybe, but it lacks for solo/small gang stuff. Lost a lot flexibility. Unfortunately the Mega is the fast BS of the line at the same time. So we have an attack BS without much flexibility and a combat BS with alot of flexibility. This seems a bit strange for me since speed is an important factor for small scale skirmish warfare. The Mega should keep its flexibility (med slots + tool slot).
There is no 1 perfect ship.
Saelyth Nightwish wrote:Quote:If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485 Yea, im a bit worried about it being overpowered too. 10% bonus might be a tad much (maybe 7.5)? Also im not sure i like the larger drone bay. I kind of have the feeling that if it isn't a drone focused ship, it shouldn't have any more space than it has bandwidth. Though it IS a Gallente ship, but ive always looked at it as a more gun focus than drone. I dono. I guess i could be ok with it. Would allow abit of versatility. Tho i do think it would be weird for the ship to have 8 spots on the model, and only be using 6 of them. The Myrm had a similar change and it just looks weird now with the guns on it. I kinda like the dronebay, gives the whole brawler/heavy drones some options. |
|
Cebraio
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
285
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:41:00 -
[1241] - Quote
The mega changes are ok, but instead of moving the high to be a low slot, I'd be more happy with a mid slot instead.
So a 7 / 5 / 7 layout would be awesome for it, imo. I always found it hard to fit everything I wanted in the mid slots.
Anyway it's better than the first proposal. |
William Darkk
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:44:00 -
[1242] - Quote
I'm still a bit worried about the Dominix. It's going to be stuck in place unless the sentry drone changes happen concurrently with the changes. Could we get drone velocity added to the optimal/tracking bonus? |
F3X5ON
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:49:00 -
[1243] - Quote
the new changes are just pure gold, hyp looks sweet, and mega is pure gold, and u can always drop a gun and fit that extra mag with the new rof changes, will be something new to play with
good one kil2 thats more like it! |
Dani Lizardov
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:50:00 -
[1244] - Quote
About the Mega: So basically, Looks like all this people are excited To have 8 low slots. To be able to put in 3x Dmg Modules.
Lenier Chenal wrote:
.....
You're quite dense if you think this mega has less DPS than the old one.
Well if you put 3x DMG modules and go down to Medium Drones I think the DPS will stay the same as it is. So what are you gaining?
Well I will tell you what are you losing: - 1x High Utility - A lot of dron Bay
So basically we are looking at The new Nerf-ed Megaton. Thank you! |
fukier
904
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:51:00 -
[1245] - Quote
i am not too sure about the new mega...
sure it looks mean but with 8 low slots means its going to be a brick tank and does that not counter the attack concept?
Also both the hyperion and the mega are both close range blaster boats... one brick tanked one active tanked...
please explain why the mega is not the combat ship and the hyperion is not the attack ship?
also by having the talos and the mega both have a tracking bonus does this not mean the talos is going to be better at the role of attack ship?
after the second itteration... i still dont see a fleet ship for gal
you have the master ratting domi
brick mega and active hyperion...
i think gal need at least one turret based fleet ship and i think a combat based mega with a fall off bonus instead of a tracking bonus would do this.
Furthermore if you should make the hyperion the attack ship (since it uses active tanking rigs it wont suffer from armor being slow)
i mean whats the point in making the hyperion (a close range bs) heavy with combat roles and the mega a attack ship bricked up with 1600's and trimarks? i just dont get it?
also to make the repper bonus usefull please do this: make the bonus make overheating better and make the bonus also reduce activation cost... this would make the internal rep bonus awesome! At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Hulasikaly Wada
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:52:00 -
[1246] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:The mega changes are ok, but instead of moving the high to be a low slot, I'd be more happy with a mid slot instead.
So a 7 / 5 / 7 layout would be awesome for it, imo. I always found it hard to fit everything I wanted in the mid slots.
Anyway it's better than the first proposal.
Yeah, 5 med will be more useful on an attack ship ( can be shield buffered for less Ehp/more dps if you like ) Plus resolving the competition with "8 slot "Amarr" ships"
Hula |
luredivino
Juice Indicate
22
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:53:00 -
[1247] - Quote
Saelyth Nightwish wrote:Quote:If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485 Yea, im a bit worried about it being overpowered too. 10% bonus might be a tad much (maybe 7.5)? Also im not sure i like the larger drone bay. I kind of have the feeling that if it isn't a drone focused ship, it shouldn't have any more space than it has bandwidth. Though it IS a Gallente ship, but ive always looked at it as a more gun focus than drone. I dono. I guess i could be ok with it. Would allow abit of versatility. Tho i do think it would be weird for the ship to have 8 spots on the model, and only be using 6 of them. The Myrm had a similar change and it just looks weird now with the guns on it.
It lost 2 guns, so I doubt the damage bonus is too much. Will have to see on the sisi when they decide to put the changes up. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
233
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:55:00 -
[1248] - Quote
fukier wrote: i think gal need at least one turret based fleet ship and i think a combat based mega with a fall off bonus instead of a tracking bonus would do this.
One of the gal blaster boats having a 10% per level falloff bonus wouldn't go amiss tho don't think I'd want to lose the tracking bonus to get it.
I quite like the new stats overall tho a little sad at the loss of the utility high on the mega but on balance trading it for an extra low probably isn't too awful a compromise.
|
Sparkus Volundar
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:56:00 -
[1249] - Quote
Post moved to Amarr BS thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2864026#post2864026 Applied Creations is recruiting. Mystic Volundar says, "It could be you! " |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
838
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:01:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) Role Bonus: +50% Drone Control Range Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500 (+125) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km (+5km)/ 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I bolded the parts that would make the ship better. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
101
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:04:00 -
[1251] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Just updated the Megathron CPU slightly, it had picked up a large increase for the last iteration that I forgot to remove from the new stats. Again, will you please give some attention to the Amarr thread? There are now over a sozendirect requests for Dev response in the thread. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:04:00 -
[1252] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) Role Bonus: +50% Drone Control Range Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500 (+125) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km (+5km)/ 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I bolded the parts that would make the ship better.
the drone control range yes, targeting range... I dont care :P in terms of the drone bay increase... NO... not 125.... at the max 50 I think |
fukier
905
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:04:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Rroff wrote:fukier wrote: i think gal need at least one turret based fleet ship and i think a combat based mega with a fall off bonus instead of a tracking bonus would do this.
One of the gal blaster boats having a 10% per level falloff bonus wouldn't go amiss tho don't think I'd want to lose the tracking bonus to get it. To some extent the extra low on the mega would have allowed the use of a TE to make it more suitable to fleet use but no its gonna get nerfed to :| I quite like the new stats overall tho a little sad at the loss of the utility high on the mega but on balance trading it for an extra low probably isn't too awful a compromise.
i understand the mega was like my first love... back in 06.
and in niche conditions the mega still does shine... like staion games and gate camping... i think it would be pretty nice in wh camping too...
but its still not a fleet ship... and it takes the role of the hyperion... plus the hype gets an extra mid slot so if you want you can fit a tc with tracking script to make up for the loss in bonus...
as i said i dont think the new mega is bad... just want a real fleet ship for gal and we just dont have that yet. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:04:00 -
[1254] - Quote
QFT. +2 |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:07:00 -
[1255] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:Like the Hyperion changes, it's awesome. Regarding the Mega, quoting my opinion from a solo/very small gang perspective: Denuo Secus wrote:I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.
We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.
All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?
Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea. The newest iteration of the Mega makes it a nice fleet boat now maybe, but it lacks for solo/small gang stuff. Lost a lot flexibility. Unfortunately the Mega is the fast BS of the line at the same time. So we have an attack BS without much flexibility and a combat BS with alot of flexibility. This seems a bit strange for me since speed is an important factor for small scale skirmish warfare. The Mega should keep its flexibility (med slots + tool slot). There is no 1 perfect ship. Saelyth Nightwish wrote:Quote:If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485 Yea, im a bit worried about it being overpowered too. 10% bonus might be a tad much (maybe 7.5)? Also im not sure i like the larger drone bay. I kind of have the feeling that if it isn't a drone focused ship, it shouldn't have any more space than it has bandwidth. Though it IS a Gallente ship, but ive always looked at it as a more gun focus than drone. I dono. I guess i could be ok with it. Would allow abit of versatility. Tho i do think it would be weird for the ship to have 8 spots on the model, and only be using 6 of them. The Myrm had a similar change and it just looks weird now with the guns on it. I kinda like the dronebay, gives the whole brawler/heavy drones some options.
Agreed, I feel that having some extra room should be a must on Gal ships. Non-gal ships shouldn't have an excess in drone bay, unless they are drone focused, but Gal is still a drone focused race, it should at minimum be able to field a flight of Heavy/Sentry, and have enough room over a flight of light.
|
Denuo Secus
161
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:09:00 -
[1256] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:Like the Hyperion changes, it's awesome. Regarding the Mega, quoting my opinion from a solo/very small gang perspective: Denuo Secus wrote:I don't really understand why people dislike the new Mega.
We would get a fast BS with 5 med slots for dual web, dual prop, ECCM, ewar, dual cap booster for neut resilience (new geddon anyone?), ....and so on. A very flexible BS, with tracking bonus, highly capable for very small gang PvP because of flexibility.
All for the cost of what? Maybe ~10k EHP?
Why so much hate? It's perfect! I really hope CCP won't drop the 5 med slots idea. The newest iteration of the Mega makes it a nice fleet boat now maybe, but it lacks for solo/small gang stuff. Lost a lot flexibility. Unfortunately the Mega is the fast BS of the line at the same time. So we have an attack BS without much flexibility and a combat BS with alot of flexibility. This seems a bit strange for me since speed is an important factor for small scale skirmish warfare. The Mega should keep its flexibility (med slots + tool slot). There is no 1 perfect ship.
Ofc not. As stated above the 5 slot Mega was perfect for solo/small gang stuff because of its flexibility. Not that suited for fleet stuff. Mostly because of low EHP. Now it's vice versa.
The 5 slot Mega was able to do a lot of things at the same time - at cost of EHP. As I see it, the new Mega is able to do two roles:
- Fast glass cannon: very overlapping with the Talos. The Mega now even doesn't have a neut which was a strong reason to fly a shield Mega instead of a shield Talos.
- Heavy armor fit, gank&tank: this role works better with the newest iteration. At cost of flexibility and solo/small gang viability. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
460
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:10:00 -
[1257] - Quote
3 Roles. It's now undisputedly the Fleet Sniper for the Gallente. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
838
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:11:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Moretic wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) Role Bonus: +50% Drone Control Range Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500 (+125) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km (+5km)/ 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I bolded the parts that would make the ship better. the drone control range yes, targeting range... I dont care :P in terms of the drone bay increase... NO... not 125.... at the max 50 I think 4 flights of large drones too much? Drone ships are supposed to be "utility" ships, the proposed Dominix can almost do that but lacks the room for utility drones. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:12:00 -
[1259] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Moretic wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) Role Bonus: +50% Drone Control Range Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500 (+125) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km (+5km)/ 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I bolded the parts that would make the ship better. the drone control range yes, targeting range... I dont care :P in terms of the drone bay increase... NO... not 125.... at the max 50 I think 4 flights of large drones too much? Drone ships are supposed to be "utility" ships, the proposed Dominix can almost do that but lacks the room for utility drones.
dont get me wrong, I'd like the 125+ :D but there just is no way we will get it, 50 feels a bit more along the lines of the current focus. ( as in it might be possible ) That said, the drone control range is a must ( i'd settle for 3k per gal bs lvl ) |
Novah Soul
Interstellar Ministeries Cold Fusion.
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:14:00 -
[1260] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Hyperion:
Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Megathron:
With the Hyperion moving to more of a combat/utility ship via its drones, heavy mid-slot allocation, and spare high, we felt the mega could now afford to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat. Instead of the former 8/5/6 utility focused set up, we now have a 7/4/8 hybrid damage machine that has sacrificed its utility high (which was often unused) to gain another low - giving it more access to damage, damage application/projection, or tank. It stays in its attack role and therefor retains the previously described increases to speed and agility. This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
These changes are a lot more even handed imo. Much better. |
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:30:00 -
[1261] - Quote
It's a pity that the 600 CPU you originally reported on the Megathron wasn't accurate... I know it's designed as a brawler, but that makes it real easy to make it a fleet ship too. Large railgun fitting reqs are absurd. Mynnna for CSM 8 |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:37:00 -
[1262] - Quote
The only thing Im worried about now is that only 6 turrets will look extremely ugly on the hyperion [just like the Myrmidon currently] |
Dani Lizardov
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:37:00 -
[1263] - Quote
mynnna wrote:It's a pity that the 600 CPU you originally reported on the Megathron wasn't accurate... I know it's designed as a brawler, but that makes it real easy to make it a fleet ship too. Large railgun fitting reqs are absurd.
Why people think, that the Mega should be a sniper? Please check out the new Domi bonuses!... then maybe learn drones. |
F4bske
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:39:00 -
[1264] - Quote
Hype and Mega look great now |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:42:00 -
[1265] - Quote
its great that domis a drone boat now... but now can you work on making it less ugly so it looks more like something that was made to launch drones... something sexy like the algos |
baltec1
Bat Country
5900
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:44:00 -
[1266] - Quote
androch wrote:its great that domis a drone boat now... but now can you work on making it less ugly so it looks more like something that was made to launch drones... something sexy like the algos
What are you talking about?
Its a lovable potato people just want to hug! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2345
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:44:00 -
[1267] - Quote
Quote:Megathron:
With the Hyperion moving to more of a combat/utility ship via its drones, heavy mid-slot allocation, and spare high, we felt the mega could now afford to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat. Instead of the former 8/5/6 utility focused set up, we now have a 7/4/8 hybrid damage machine that has sacrificed its utility high (which was often unused) to gain another low - giving it more access to damage, damage application/projection, or tank. It stays in its attack role and therefor retains the previously described increases to speed and agility. This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
I approve of this service announcement and will be more than willing to endorse it with sexual favors. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka GaNg BaNg TeAm
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:44:00 -
[1268] - Quote
androch wrote:its great that domis a drone boat now... but now can you work on making it less ugly so it looks more like something that was made to launch drones... something sexy like the algos
Why not make it look like a panda? Or a tauren?
GTFO, the Dominix's charm is in its looks. |
Denuo Secus
161
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:44:00 -
[1269] - Quote
androch wrote:its great that domis a drone boat now... but now can you work on making it less ugly so it looks more like something that was made to launch drones... something sexy like the algos
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2863875#post2863875 (all rumors and guessing atm) |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:45:00 -
[1270] - Quote
androch wrote:its great that domis a drone boat now... but now can you work on making it less ugly so it looks more like something that was made to launch drones... something sexy like the algos
I agree!!!!! remove the whale/potato |
|
Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
133
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:48:00 -
[1271] - Quote
Ahahahhaa the updated changes are almost exactly what I posted on kugu like 3 hours before the OP was updated
Great minds think alike or somethin
Good changes |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
349
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:48:00 -
[1272] - Quote
mynnna wrote:It's a pity that the 600 CPU you originally reported on the Megathron wasn't accurate... I know it's designed as a brawler, but that makes it real easy to make it a fleet ship too. Large railgun fitting reqs are absurd.
Blame the weapon system G££ <= Me |
Siobhan MacLeary
BRG Corp Ocularis Inferno
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:49:00 -
[1273] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Hyperion:
+7.5% Armor Repair amount
My only, sole, solitary issue with the new Hyperion is the quoted hull bonus - active tanking is still pretty meh and most people who are going to use the Hyperion as a fleet ship will probably have not much use for local reps. Personally, I'd vote for a very modest - say 5% at max skills - bonus to either armor resists or armor hp.
Then again, the Myrmidon also has an armor rep bonus and its never exactly been a pushover, so Iunno. Aside from that everything looks good. GÇ£Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.GÇ¥ - CCP Soundwave |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
46
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:50:00 -
[1274] - Quote
the potato look is outdated since it no longer has weapon bonuses it needs to have its appearance altered to match its primary weapon system not to mention its so ugly that it makes caldari ships look pretty in comparison (moa) |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
460
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:53:00 -
[1275] - Quote
androch wrote:but now can you work on making it less ugly so it looks more like something that was made to launch drones... something sexy like the algos +1 Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:54:00 -
[1276] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers
the old hyperion has the DMG of 10 Turrets 8 x 1,25 the new hyperion has the DMG of 9 Turrets 6 x 1,5
that hurt a little, but the new dronebay should make it okay. so, the new bonus is okay in my opinion. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5900
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:55:00 -
[1277] - Quote
androch wrote:the potato look is outdated since it no longer has weapon bonuses it needs to have its appearance altered to match its primary weapon system not to mention its so ugly that it makes caldari ships look pretty in comparison (moa)
But it already looks like a beehive... |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
806
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:55:00 -
[1278] - Quote
Dani Lizardov wrote:mynnna wrote:It's a pity that the 600 CPU you originally reported on the Megathron wasn't accurate... I know it's designed as a brawler, but that makes it real easy to make it a fleet ship too. Large railgun fitting reqs are absurd. Why people think, that the Mega should be a sniper? Please check out the new Domi bonuses!... then maybe learn drones.
Heaven forbid someone decide see if a ship can be used in a manner that you do not personally approve of. And I'm well aware of the notional fleet domi, thank you very much. Mynnna for CSM 8 |
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
503
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:58:00 -
[1279] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:we are using myrms, gilas end even prophecys to great effect for brawls [with sentries]
Yeah I could see them working in that situation I guess. It's not a common thing to see a sentry drone meta outside of slowcats in my experience.
The thing that irks me about sentries is this; even if you get in a close range brawl, where you should hopefully not move too far from your sentries, you really only need to move a little outside the tiny scoop range to be left with the decision to leave them or spend time collecting.
I don't feel really strongly about it to be honest but making sentries move on return or increased scoop range would be a nice change that would probably give more reason to use them. There are still big limitations with using sentries (destroyable, low tracking, only carry one or two flights) even if this idea were to be implemented.
I used to use drone ships a lot and now I rarely use them because using drones annoys me so much. The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:58:00 -
[1280] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:androch wrote:its great that domis a drone boat now... but now can you work on making it less ugly so it looks more like something that was made to launch drones... something sexy like the algos What are you talking about? Its a lovable potato people just want to hug! Any ship with a rear end that looks like a hippo's ass gets a +1 from me. |
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:03:00 -
[1281] - Quote
William Darkk wrote:I'm still a bit worried about the Dominix. It's going to be stuck in place unless the sentry drone changes happen concurrently with the changes. Could we get drone velocity added to the optimal/tracking bonus? It's drone dps seems to be comparable to the other ships turret dps, and in return for standing still while also dealing with drones, the domi fleet can provide remote reps/cap transfer/neuting services |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
87
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:03:00 -
[1282] - Quote
Good Morning Rise,
Thank you and your team for keeping up with the wall of text we've been generating. I can appreciate that finding a balance between some of the diverse opinions and wants can be a very difficult task while still maintaining good game balance.
Mega: Much improved. Retains it's classic role and features, and add's a touch of fresh flavor. This less radical rework should prove to be more widely accepted and utilized. Not sure it will replace Rokh's or Mael's in any fleet doctrine, but it now at least has the potential to hold it's own. In it's classic low sec Gunship role with logi support it seems better adapted than ever. +1 ( For anyone not 100% satisfied you still have the Navy Mega to tweak and they're not that much more expensive overall )
Hype: Alot better. If we have to get stuck with the rep bonus, this is a superior platform to do it with. The drone bay reblanacing seems very equitable considering the ship needs to live "In You're Face" to get it's job done. I can see where it has the potential to finally shine but I'm doubtful of it being OP simply because it doesn't have the pg to go wild with max gank & tank. As a dual rep Ion or tripple rep Electron platform it should remain equitable.
Two things are Exxceptionaly important here though. Currently Hype's go for +200 mil, Domi's for @ 95. While much maligned ( justifiably ) the rep bonus can be hugely advantageous to new and low sp players for pve ( and vets to ). Far and away the best manner to guarantee we finally see this ship fielded in great numbers is to nerf the hell out of the build cost. Make it the equivalent of the entry level bs and pve'ers will love you and PvP'ers will find a use for it. Of significant importance is the one stat you actually don't list. Cargo Bay . Perhaps for the first time ever in the history of EvE, in particular in a Combat ship balancing thread, someone's asking for a cargo bay buff. There's just no argument to be had. If it's getting stuck with the active rep bonus then it needs cap boosters. Even with Navy 800's and a med secure container it's just barely viable for a short drive by shooting. I'm not expecting it to have Itty 5 type cargo but it needs +50 or 75 for sure. Otherwise expect a rather large Nos drone thread to begin in 3,2,1.
Domi: Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe i don't '' Get It " with the optimal bonus. More than likely I'm still shocked that the Geddon got buffed the way it did. Either way, I can't see any purpose for this ship anymore. Not sure I'll train Amar BS 5, but i'll definitely have it at 4 for Odyssey. Maybe it will get better with Sentries. But that wont help if I'm using any of the two dozen other drones in the game. Ogre 2's and Zerks will still be stupid slow. Worse if the ship is now intended to be a mid to long range platform as opposed to it's more classic role of close to Very close range.
Going from a Vex to an Algos you definitely notice the speed bonus at work. I've used an Omni or Drone Nav comp on the Domi a few times but never been impressed enough to keep it on for long. Perhaps now they'll start to shine but sorry, I'm hugely doubtful of that . ATM I'm just at a loss to see any reason to PvP a Domi instead of a Geddon.
Thanks again for working with us on this. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
284
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:10:00 -
[1283] - Quote
Holy poop box.
That's two times in a row my feedback has either
A) been listened to and applied
or
B) I somehow knew exactly what CCP were gonna do.
Can I please think that it was option "A"? It will make me blood up a little and everything.
Hyperion is now EXACTLY how I've always wanted it to be, it's just a little slow. Also, with that extra low the 9 effective turrets + and extra heavy drone + being able to actually fit a MFS II gives moar deeps. I am gonna cream myself!!! Has it had it's PG reduced or not cause -2 guns frees up heaps of PG which it needs. |
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:15:00 -
[1284] - Quote
@ Hyperion. well the cargobuff would be nice. and fit perfect with the ship size. we must remember that the hyperion is the biggest battleship by far from its size.
so add a little bit cargo, and please add a little bit max velocity, so it fit better with MWD whats important for the Brawl.
and btw, why dont pushed the lock in range a bit ? just 5km more would help much ! |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:25:00 -
[1285] - Quote
.....overcorrection.....
Please apply it to our ships too. Check Pest vs Hyp. Both have 6 turrets. Pest has two damage bonuses while hype has double damage wrapped into one + rep bonus. + 125mbit drones + 1 more low. Their speeds ar also similar. |
Antimatter Launcher
Path of Progress Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:26:00 -
[1286] - Quote
Deerin wrote:.....overcorrection.....
Please apply it to our ships too. Check Pest vs Hyp. Both have 6 turrets. Pest has two damage bonuses while hype has double damage wrapped into one + rep bonus. + 125mbit drones + 1 more low. Their speeds ar also similar.
the tempest have a 5% refire rate bonus wich is stronger then a 5% dmg bonus. so the tempest do more then 10% dmg in compare to the hyperion. |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Unclaimed.
219
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:28:00 -
[1287] - Quote
Deerin wrote:.....overcorrection.....
Please apply it to our ships too. Check Pest vs Hyp. Both have 6 turrets. Pest has two damage bonuses while hype has double damage wrapped into one + rep bonus. + 125mbit drones + 1 more low. Their speeds ar also similar.
The tempest has a more than 10% damage bonus, its guns don't use capacitor and have greater range than blasters, and its tank doesn't need capacitor to run if fit with ancillary shield boosters. A more than fair tradeoff. |
Johan March
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:28:00 -
[1288] - Quote
I think the revisions are a step in the right direction and I definitely appreciate the re-tweak.
However, did you actually nerf the Hyperion's damage by taking it from 8 turrets with a 5% per level damage bonus to 6 turrets with a 10% per level damage bonus?
(8*1.25) vs. (6*1.5)
Am I missing something?
On edit: realized the PG buff will allow the fitting of heavier guns w/ the standard armor set up. This is actually quite good.
Also, color me skeptical that a trimarked, plated Mega is going to be anything but fast and agile. As much as I do not like local armor reps, it makes sense that the active repped, no trimarked, ship would be far more 'agile' than the plated, trimarked one.
I still don't see a fleet ship here, except maybe the Dominix.
Still, over all, much better. |
Loki Vice
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:29:00 -
[1289] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Just updated the Megathron CPU slightly, it had picked up a large increase for the last iteration that I forgot to remove from the new stats.
Why are you sticking to your guns on that useless active armor bonus on the hyperion? what the gallente really need is a ship that can fit into other doctrines, making it damage/range bonus would make it feasible to fit rails, you can drop the 5th mid down to a 4th, and leave it at 7 lows.
This gives gallete pilots the chance to participate in fleets that involve long range, or it can be fit with blasters and still do decent damage (still not as much as the megathron) but have better damage projection. |
Isa Superiora
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:36:00 -
[1290] - Quote
Not bad. |
|
Brohmir
The Rising Stars Academy
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:36:00 -
[1291] - Quote
Can't scroll through 65 pages now...
What about the Navy Megathron and his bonuses? :) |
Budrick3
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:36:00 -
[1292] - Quote
The changes are not that bad, but I suggest that the mega gain a mid, and loose a low. I too am worried that the ship might become bogged down and loose it's attack role. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:36:00 -
[1293] - Quote
I'm going to miss the flexibilty of my old Megathron (drone bay + extra high), would have liked to have seen the 'utility' aspect emphasied more, but I think I could work with the new version.
May even start flying the Hyperion again.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7425
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:36:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Johan March wrote:I think the revisions are a step in the right direction and I definitely appreciate the re-tweak.
However, did you actually nerf the Hyperion's damage by taking it from 8 turrets with a 5% per level damage bonus to 6 turrets with a 10% per level damage bonus?
(8*1.25) vs. (6*1.5)
Am I missing something?
The lowslot it gained? See: http://i.imgur.com/ybjuixD.jpg mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
460
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:40:00 -
[1295] - Quote
Andski wrote:Johan March wrote:I think the revisions are a step in the right direction and I definitely appreciate the re-tweak.
However, did you actually nerf the Hyperion's damage by taking it from 8 turrets with a 5% per level damage bonus to 6 turrets with a 10% per level damage bonus?
(8*1.25) vs. (6*1.5)
Am I missing something? The lowslot it gained? See: http://i.imgur.com/ybjuixD.jpg AND THE DRONE? Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:41:00 -
[1296] - Quote
I've seen this posted before, but no CCP comment on it yet.
Why is it that some ships have drone speed bonus, while others have tracking? It seems to me that rather than standardizing bonuses across the races, the drone bonuses seem to be going everywhere.
Optimal/tracking bonuses are great for sentry drones, but a Dominix with Ogres is wasting one of it's hull bonuses and not likely to do much against anything that isn't webbed and scrambled. Why not add the 25% MWD speed role bonus that the Algos and Dragoon have to make Ogres a viable option for this ship too? You can have a second look at the Myrmidon and Prophecy while you're at it...
It's pretty disappointing to see the Gallente line of ships be so limited to either Blasters or Sentries, a little consideration for the many other line of drones would be appreciated. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:44:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Loki Vice wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Just updated the Megathron CPU slightly, it had picked up a large increase for the last iteration that I forgot to remove from the new stats. Why are you sticking to your guns on that useless active armor bonus on the hyperion? what the gallente really need is a ship that can fit into other doctrines, making it damage/range bonus would make it feasible to fit rails, you can drop the 5th mid down to a 4th, and leave it at 7 lows. This gives gallete pilots the chance to participate in fleets that involve long range, or it can be fit with blasters and still do decent damage (still not as much as the megathron) but have better damage projection. Dropping a Mid would be the kiss of death for it in a fleet.
Other than the obvious, that most sub-cap fleets are shield based.. Eve when this isn't the case it needs that slot for Webs, TC's, Prop, and Cap.
While Cap isn't AS big of an issue as before, with the loss of two guns, it's still a big factor.
For me the slot layout, or more accurately, keeping the 5 mids, is far more important than any other changes. While the rep bonus isn't something I generally use, it doesn't hurt me to have it there.. I mean it's there now and it doesn't affect me. Would I love a range or tracking bonus the Hype hull rather than the Rep ? Ya.. But that's not gonna happen. Gal is Active Armor doctrine. CCP isn't gonna change that.
I haven't had a chance to work up any fits with it.. but that said, looking at the Hype, there isn't a single issue I have with it. |
Budrick3
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:44:00 -
[1298] - Quote
Ya, gotta say also, im going to miss the utility high for my rr mega fleet. Sad panda day, but at least we are not going to get stuck with what was originally proposed. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
220
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:45:00 -
[1299] - Quote
What's up with giving the Typhoon more drones than the Mega. I think you need to take a hard look at that one again.
The Hyperion is looking good. The mega as well expect for having less drones than the Typhoon.
The Dominix still needs a ton of work. How about changing the bonus to:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range, and Drone tracking speed
and give us a second bonus. Even with the small bump in PG it is still overshadowed by the Geddon. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:45:00 -
[1300] - Quote
I guess this makes the Domi the "ship of the line"? Hospital RR domi fleets here we come. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
839
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:47:00 -
[1301] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:I guess this makes the Domi the "ship of the line"? Hospital RR domi fleets here we come. I have suggested turning the Dominix into a BS logi ship, it got ripped apart by non supporters. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:47:00 -
[1302] - Quote
Alice Katsuko wrote:Deerin wrote:.....overcorrection.....
Please apply it to our ships too. Check Pest vs Hyp. Both have 6 turrets. Pest has two damage bonuses while hype has double damage wrapped into one + rep bonus. + 125mbit drones + 1 more low. Their speeds ar also similar. The tempest has a more than 10% damage bonus, its guns don't use capacitor and have greater range than blasters, and its tank doesn't need capacitor to run if fit with ancillary shield boosters. A more than fair tradeoff.
You can run same tank on hyp if you wanted. Both have 5 meds. Blaster hype outdamages pest within t2 point range (up to 35k if you use that additional low with a TE). Hype also has better tracking, better ehp. 125mbit drones, additional drone bay, a rep bonus...what does pest have?? A second utility high,smaller sig and oh yes capless guns.
Not even close to a fair tradeoff.
I'm not saying hype doesn't deserve this. I want same sweet love on pest too.
|
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
167
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:47:00 -
[1303] - Quote
I didn't realize that my account had lapsed, so by the time I actually get to reply to this thread, you've already fixed the horrendous changes that you started out with.
I'm not really all that opposed to the domi changes, but you really need to nerf the Geddon if you're going through with these domi changes. It should not have 125mb of bandwidth as well as a damage bonus, and the bloody neut bonus.
The mega is probably one of my favorite ships in Eve, and since I only fly Gallente, it has been my only halfway decent choice for fleets due to the hype's shittiness and the domi's reliance on drones and the problems associated with that. I'm honestly a bit ambivalent about the newest changes. The mega had a great slot layout for low sec gang fits, because you could fit neutrons, a heavy cap booster, a good buffer tank, and a heavy neut, and in the aggregate, this was a great fleet comp because it allowed you to have in your face dps, good neuting capabilities against capitals, and most importantly it spread those capabilities around the fleet so that you weren't ****** if your lynchpin ship went down or was otherwise incapacitated. The biggest weakness of this setup was tank. I had about five slots for tank, but it always lost out on resists compared to the Abaddon and the dps was not quite enough to make up for this fact, added to the fact that the CPU was not quite enough to get a proper 2nd EANM on there.
So after using the mega this way, I find myself both happy and sad to see the newest iteration. I'm glad that we get another low to make up this difference with the Abaddon, either in the form of more damage with a mag stab, more range with a TE, or more tank with another resist mod. But I'm also sad to see that versatility with the high slot gone. I honestly would have preferred you just give the mega a bit more CPU and keep the slot layout as is, with some adjustments to mobility, mass, and maybe some base stats, but I'll get to that next. As it is now it seems like it's just trying to imitate the Rohk and the Abaddon without really being able to measure up to either one.
In any case, there's something more important that needs to be discussed beyond the slot layout, and it's something I'm surprised I haven't seen brought up before now. Back before the hybrid changes, most of us were complaining about the flawed design philosophy of putting the shortest range guns on some of the slowest ships in EVE (by way of armor tanks) and expecting that to be effective. When the blasters got changed, you all acknowledged that it was not enough by itself to fix the problem, but that with the ship rebalancing coming up we would be in a position to fix it totally.
With these newest changes, I don't see any real change to this flawed philosophy. The ships are still not fast enough to cover enough distance to make a difference, and even when they are, the dps is just not enough to really make up for the HP you've already lost getting to target. You've given the mega slightly more DPS with the ROF bonus, but it gets almost negated by the loss of the two heavy drones. Those two heavies account for about 130 dps at max skills, and that's not an insignificant number. You can almost make up for it with a third mag stab, but that just puts us right back where we were, except without the utility of the heavy neut, and with just as many tank issues as before.
What I'm getting at here is that this is really a roundabout nerf to the mega, a small but important one. The mega needs more speed and more dps to truly be effective. This bad boy should be going over 1k/s with it's MWD on, and it should get the full bay of heavies back so that we're actually getting something for the loss of utility. The entire Gall BS line was unhealthy before these changes, and really with the updated changes, you're not helping their position out, which ultimately is a nerf, since the other races had ships with combat philosophies that actually made sense and were usable. At the fundamental level, these changes aren't going to make the mega balanced with the other races BS choices, and the mega needs something more than just a different version of the same failed combat philosophy that it's always had. |
fukier
906
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:02:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Im not sure why people are happy with the.mega?
Its an attack ship that will be a flying brick and still wont fill a fleet doctrine...
If you want blasters then talos is better... If you want rails then the rokh is better...
For fleet purpose the mega does not do it...
Honestly the 8th low should be a 5th mid...
And the tracking changed to falloff...
I can understand why people who use the mega as a niche ship are happy with the change... But from a balance perspective im at a loss...
Please someone who is happy with the change explain to me At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:03:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:X Gallentius wrote:I guess this makes the Domi the "ship of the line"? Hospital RR domi fleets here we come. I have suggested turning the Dominix into a BS logi ship, it got ripped apart by non supporters. It already is, but not at massive rep ranges associated with dedicated logi ships. |
Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:04:00 -
[1306] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted.
Megathron:
we now have a 7/4/8 .
So you take away the Amarr 8 low-slot battleship, and give it to the Gallente? What the heck? Aren't the Amarr the ones known for having so many low-slots? I'm annoyed that the proteus gets more lows than the legion, but now this?? /end rant.
Constructive feedback: Otherwise this looking significantly better. I'm concerned about the drones...how is the domi and ishtar going to be competitive with the navy vexor, but if drones need a looking at (which I think they do), then hopefully the problem can be solved there, and not on the ship hull. |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
290
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:06:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Give the dominix a 75% drone control range as a role bonus. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3349
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:07:00 -
[1308] - Quote
CCP Rise - Is the new Dominix really set in stone then?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
DeadRow
Utopian Research I.E.L. Suddenly Spaceships.
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:09:00 -
[1309] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Rise - Is the new Dominix really set in stone then?
Hope so :3 |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
640
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:10:00 -
[1310] - Quote
New mega will certainly be a welcome addition for those who like to do circle jerk station games on a budget. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
|
StrongSmartSexy
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:10:00 -
[1311] - Quote
Not to be rude to the rest of CCP, but Kil2/CCP Rise certainly seems more efficient at heeding player feedback. The new hyperion is absolutely awesome.
Pure speculation here, but what would happen if the dominix was revamped into the Gallente's disruption battleship? |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:13:00 -
[1312] - Quote
StrongSmartSexy wrote:Not to be rude to the rest of CCP, but Kil2/CCP Rise certainly seems more efficient at heeding player feedback. The new hyperion is absolutely awesome.
Pure speculation here, but what would happen if the dominix was revamped into the Gallente's disruption battleship? then stop taking his time and point him to caldari bs topic |
Ivelios d'Sanquine
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:18:00 -
[1313] - Quote
Why not keep the mega is it is? the utility high slot was fun and helped make the ship versatile and diffrent from the other mega's out there. All the ship really needed is the change in damage bonus. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:20:00 -
[1314] - Quote
CCP I just want to congratulate you on totally reversing that mess you earlier called a "rebalance" and came out with a balance proper. Massive kudos.
Brings a tear to my eye.
(Don't get cocky though as far as we can tell the Geddon still totally replaced the Dominix for any and all things PvP related =\) |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
221
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:31:00 -
[1315] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:X Gallentius wrote:I guess this makes the Domi the "ship of the line"? Hospital RR domi fleets here we come. I have suggested turning the Dominix into a BS logi ship, it got ripped apart by non supporters. It already is, but not at massive rep ranges associated with dedicated logi ships.
It would actually be fitting if the Domi was turned into a BS support ship. The Geddon more borderlines a disruption ship rather than a combat ship. The Caldari already have a disruption BS and the Minmatar two attack ships. Why not give the Gallente something unique and give them a support BS? |
S3Ti
New European Regiment
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:32:00 -
[1316] - Quote
Hello,
I cant comment the changes for the hype, simply because i never flew the ship..so i will pass.
The mega looses 1 utility slot and 2/3 of dronebay/bandwidth gains 2 lows .....Wasn't supposed gallente to be the drone lords? Any amarr BS ship has at least same band/drone bay. At least make more space for spare drones....
The domi had his utility because was flexible...you never knew what the domi could be RR, neut, gank,tank etc...Now, what you want to do is making the domi a "a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. " . what about mobility and firewall tactics, and lag because damn drones dont come in when they are told, or just you got bumped and you cant scoop damn drones, the drones will be killed and there goes your mighty 800 DPS.
There is no reason to fly a gall fleet BS when if you can fly amarr or caldari which do things way better than any gall ship. Imo the gall fleet BS should be the mega, not the potatoe :(.
Cheers
|
n00b Paralex
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:40:00 -
[1317] - Quote
No no no no. The original changes proposed to the Hyperion/Megathron were excellent. Why did you have to go back?
Why are you forcing us to armor tank? Armor tanking is still far inferior to Shield Tanking. Give us some viable armor tanking options and maybe this would be a good change. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:46:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Overall nice job with the changes. It is unfortunate to see the Hype lose 8 turrets; not for visual reasons, but because it feels special to be using a battleship that's firing all eight slots. Abaddons look awesome firing all eight lasers, Rokhs and Maels, too. Although I appreciate the less cap used on just 6 turrets and the option of a high slot utility (which, come on, everyone keeps saying "utility" when it's so obviously NEUT SLOT), Gallente won't have an 8-slot battleship (unless you count the Vindi, which I'm not since it's a pirate hull), which is sort of a "meta let down."
Also, please just get it out of your head that active armor tanking is good and you need to hold onto it. You guys at one time thought split weapon systems were fun, until they always weren't, and you buried that idea. Time to have a similar epiphany with active armor repping and just further differentiate shield and armor tanking by allowing shield ships to have as many ASBs as they can fit and have ship bonuses to boost amount and resists, and give armor ships all the ability to run active if the pilot chooses that playstyle through rigs and/or new modules. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:50:00 -
[1319] - Quote
so now we still have no fleet ship for gallente the dominix just doesn't work in big fleets due to drone travel timer or sentries not moving at all because of that I think that the dominix should be the ship to get the repair bonus together with a 10% to all drone stats (damage, range, tracking,speed, control range, HP, effect,) and the layout it has right now the dominix already works well in a active tank setup so this is the perfect ship for that bonus
Dominix: 6h 5m 7l 6t +7,5% armor repair amount per level +10% to all drone stats per level
Hyperion: as a fleet ship the Hyperion would be perfect with a big tank good damage and a 20% falloff bonus along the suggested 10% hybrid damage but a slightly changed slot layout 6h 5m 8l 6t this would make it able to fit a tank equal to rokh mael and baddon while having more dps at a litle less range then those 3 and lots of utility for eccm mwd cap-booster and 2 but only small 50/50 drone config this would make it work in big 100+ fleet fights
the Megathron works best as it is right now with good utility good speed and its spare highslot and a 125/175 drone config for lots of flexibility as a small gang hit and run brawler when roaming solo or in a 2-3 man group the spare highslot just trumps the low or med it could get instead Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
fukier
906
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:50:00 -
[1320] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:New mega will certainly be a welcome addition for those who like to do circle jerk station games on a budget.
yeah i here that... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5903
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:50:00 -
[1321] - Quote
Ivelios d'Sanquine wrote:Why not keep the mega is it is? the utility high slot was fun and helped make the ship versatile and diffrent from the other mega's out there. All the ship really needed is the change in damage bonus.
More options with that extra low slot than with the extra high slot. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
552
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:52:00 -
[1322] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:(which, come on, everyone keeps saying "utility" when it's so obviously NEUT SLOT)
Smartbomb.
For solo Battleship work, a large smartbomb does wonders while a single neut would be crappy. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:53:00 -
[1323] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:(which, come on, everyone keeps saying "utility" when it's so obviously NEUT SLOT) Smartbomb. For solo Battleship work, a large smartbomb does wonders while a single neut would be crappy. Touche, sir. :P
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:00:00 -
[1324] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:..... You might be using the Hyperion instead. Active rep, no speed penalty for trimarks, utility high slot, more dps, etc...
In any case, if Megathron is the "attack" BS, then it needs to be faster. If properly tanked, the combat BS (Hyperion) will go faster.
|
Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:02:00 -
[1325] - Quote
Let the megathron keep it's current drone bay/bandwidth. Other than that, it looks pretty solid. The hyperion is like a larger brutix, which means I'll still prefer a rokh over it just as I prefer a ferox over the brutix.
Take one/two turrets from the dominix and give it 15/20% drone damage |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:05:00 -
[1326] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:(which, come on, everyone keeps saying "utility" when it's so obviously NEUT SLOT) Smartbomb. For solo Battleship work, a large smartbomb does wonders while a single neut would be crappy. Exactly, was my standard setup from 2005 - 2009, Ion II's Large Smartbomb, 1205 DPS, no issues with ECM drones/elite suicide attack pods...
Looking at the changes, I'm not sure cropping the drone bay to 75m3 is really justified, that's - 126 DPS off the bat.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2489
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:05:00 -
[1327] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ivelios d'Sanquine wrote:Why not keep the mega is it is? the utility high slot was fun and helped make the ship versatile and diffrent from the other mega's out there. All the ship really needed is the change in damage bonus. More options with that extra low slot than with the extra high slot.
You keep saying this, but my imagination fails me- what utility are you referring to?
I regard a heavy neut/nos, smart bomb, repper or probe launcher (for us wormholios) are highly usable things that extend it's role beyond just tank and spank (neither of which the new Mega does really well, btw).
Not that much variety in mods that go in lows, or?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
169
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:09:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Imo all the Gall ships should be faster. Hyp might make a better "attack BS" but there's something rather incongruous about a battleship that's supposed to be fast moving. The whole idea of attack BS really doesn't translate into reality imo. But I think that it's a problem that affects all the blaster ships. Even if we switched the names around and called the Hype the attack BS and the mega the combat BS, the truth is that they still would not work because they don't have the speed to get to target, they don't have enough DPS to make up for the HP they've lost getting to target, and on top of that they don't have the tank to really hold up even if they started at their optimal. That the Hype might be a bit faster fitting active rep doesn't really change much, because in a gang situation you're going to want to plate it anyway, lest it die in a ball of fire before you get two shots off.
What I'm trying to point out is that there is a fundamental design flaw with the blaster brawlers in their current iteration that is not being addressed properly with these balance changes. Even if the Mega was called the combat BS, it wouldn't change the fact that it's just not an effective ship with blasters and with rails it just is completely outclassed by the pulse baddon and the other ranged setups. This ship balancing pass was supposed to be the second part of the fix to this problem after the hybrid changes came in, and yet it really doesn't measure up. |
Throktar
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:09:00 -
[1329] - Quote
I really like the Hyp changes, they are very good so far. Needs more speed.
The Domi is going to be pretty interesting in groups at range.
The Mega... I like the 8th low added and I can accept losing my utility high. why though did you take away another heavy drone? I understood going from 125 to 100, but now down to 75????
The new low is almost moot now, because it has to be a mag stab to make up for the loss of 126 dps from 2 heavy drones! Losing 63 dps and a utility high slot was worth it for that extra low, this is not however.
Also please look at the speed for the Mega, I really think it need to be at about 132 or maybe a tad more. |
Melphina Amador
n00bs-r-us
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:09:00 -
[1330] - Quote
Woah, why are you doing a deep dive into armor tanking when armor tanking still sucks compared to shield tanking?
Give the Megathron an extra mid slot so we can do shield or armor tanking. |
|
mine mi
Hispania Armored Forces
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:13:00 -
[1331] - Quote
good work |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
290
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:14:00 -
[1332] - Quote
After getting up to date with this thread, here's what I think:
Hyperion: Looks ok now, although I still consider the rep amount bonus subpar for Gallente ships; people have suggested a plate amount bonus, which I think is fine, considering it limits versatility somewhat. That or fix active armor tanking once and for all. Also, why do we need that much PGW and launcher slot now? A last, minor thing is that I hope the art department is studying all the ships whose turret slots after tiericide are not reflected by the 3D model, and plans to correct that.
Megathron: Needs a small amount of extra armor, maybe consider moving 500hp from shields to armor; aside from this, I don't really see the need for the drastic changes, but if you really want to play to the "mobile" theme, you could just go for the same slot layout and bonuses, reduce bandwidth by 75 (to 50) and add an 8th turret (compensate fittings). If this was done, I would suggest changing the Hyperion's bonus from 10% damage to 7.5% RoF.
Dominix: Honestly, I like it. It just needs "few" things to work properly, namely, a 50% drone control range bonus and a complete drone overhaul, but mainly that Drone Interfacing afftects all types of drones and that sentries gain the ability to move with the ship. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1849
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:15:00 -
[1333] - Quote
Hyp: Looks good, I think I might try flying one now.
Mega: I was thinking more along the lines of 7/5/7, but 7/4/8 will work. Don't like the heavy nerf on the drone bay though. Less likely to fly this mega than before.
Domi: I like the way its going, but it needs more to catch up to Hype level of combat power. Drone speed would work to buff non-sentries without doubling up on the sentry bonus. A nice +5% or 10% / level would be welcome in drone control range as well. Or more drone bay - heavies/sentries take a lot of space up fast.
Would 150 bandwidth and a 6th drone be out of the question?
Also why do drone range bonuses only affect optimal and not falloff too?
(And throw my vote into the ring for sentries being able to move only when in follow/return mode, and hold still on attack)
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5905
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:23:00 -
[1334] - Quote
Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ivelios d'Sanquine wrote:Why not keep the mega is it is? the utility high slot was fun and helped make the ship versatile and diffrent from the other mega's out there. All the ship really needed is the change in damage bonus. More options with that extra low slot than with the extra high slot. You keep saying this, but my imagination fails me- what utility are you referring to? I regard a heavy neut/nos, smart bomb, repper or probe launcher (for us wormholios) are highly usable things that extend it's role beyond just tank and spank (neither of which the new Mega does really well, btw). Not that much variety in mods that go in lows, or?
RR on BS isnt a mainstay thing in PvP and hasnt been for a number of years. With the new t1 logi thats even more so now.
The neut while handy isnt all that great. Most things are dead before they cap out and frigs regen their cap enough between cycles to render large neuts on them ineffective. They also suffer the same range issues as smartbombs and in a small gang a large smartbomb is problematic for your own frigates and drones.
Probers are not a massive loss as you cant fit combat probers on it and generally if you need a prober you will have someone in a cov ops anyway or for a WH gang enough probers around to not matter. The other use of a backup cyno for a fleet is no great loss either as you will have other ships for that too.
Most of the things you would put into that high will spend most of the time not getting used. An extra low however will provide more tank, more firepower, more speed, better ECM defence, more agility, more tracking, ect. Things that you will be using all the time. For people like me it will also offer room for more specialised fits for things the mega should really be able to do.
|
Johan March
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:25:00 -
[1335] - Quote
Andski wrote:Johan March wrote:I think the revisions are a step in the right direction and I definitely appreciate the re-tweak.
However, did you actually nerf the Hyperion's damage by taking it from 8 turrets with a 5% per level damage bonus to 6 turrets with a 10% per level damage bonus?
(8*1.25) vs. (6*1.5)
Am I missing something? The lowslot it gained? See: http://i.imgur.com/ybjuixD.jpg
Thanks for this. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3924
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:32:00 -
[1336] - Quote
Andski wrote:oh good a pointless launcher slot on the hyperion Obviously its for launching defenders to protect you from the Attack Ravens. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Lithorn
The Dark Tribe
21
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:38:00 -
[1337] - Quote
Consider for the dominix rather than Drone optimal range, replace it with drone speed. Myself and others commented when drone speed bonuses were proposed to be added to some ships that non sentry drones have trouble hitting stuff when they are moving so darn fast. So secondary bonus 10% Tracking Speed & Drone speed per a level. Omni links would give you all the optimal range you ever wanted.
Hyperion: That 7.5 percent per a level bonus is the most boring and debatably useless thing ever, I used it long long time ago in pve and maybe a few times in pvp. Since we're in a festive mood about changing up the way things work how about re-imagining the bonus to be something else. Not sure what but something else more useful. B.T,W 10 percent per a level is potent but remember the Hyperion has 0 tracking bonuses and probably has the worst tracking problems of all them because of that. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
120
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:47:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Eh, changes to the Hype and Mega look pretty decent.
But still not particularly happy about the Domi. Now it's even more pigeon-holed into the role of "low-grade fleet sniper with destroyable/leave-able dps" or PvE ****-ship. Because why would you use a Domi for close-range combat when you have the Hype? It will now do one job exceedingly well (PvE) rather than many jobs decently. It's become narrowed into a niche role, when I thought the idea of T1 ships was versatility whereas the T2/Navy ships get the narrow focus. Personally I'd rather just see the Domi as a BS-sized Vexor. But w/e, it's your game. |
Lithorn
The Dark Tribe
21
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:53:00 -
[1339] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:These changes don't seem very good.
Hyperion is not really fit for anything except for silly bait setups in which the abbadon is better. It remains a poor choice in both pve and pvp. The ICONIC Mega is only used for station games and with the damage bonus turning into a rof bonus I feel like that is more of a nerf than anything. Often times when playing station games you only have time to get one volley off. The dominix just gets slaughtered here. Drones are useless in pvp and thanks to ccp foxfour and the new rat AI it is incredibly difficult to pve with drones. These changes make the dominix less effective in both pve and pvp. It wasn't a popular ship to begin with.
As many people willl point out the dominx is used for baiting/shield gank setups. If the dominix were to lose its large hybrid bonus it should have received the hyperions rep bonus in exchange for the hyperion to get a double damage bonus.
tl;dr: What do you guys have against gallente? Actually NO drones are not useless in pvp at all, killed some very nice stuff lately with drone Domi's, you just have to use them properly. With the removal of the gun bonuses this does relegate them more into a support role which is something the Dominix still does very well. Its more of a small gang, gate camping ship these days anyways. |
William R Blake
VC Academy
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:53:00 -
[1340] - Quote
Hyperion :
Seems good to me, although im not sure if it can run dual repper to go with its bonus decently.
Mega :
The plus on the low slots is good, not sure about the RoF bonus. and if u can just buff the armor a little bit it would be nice OR make it faster and more agile.
Domi :
Im not sure how i feel about Domi, it seem now the Domi is meant to be use with Sentry with this bonuses. How about Heavy drones?
|
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2489
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:56:00 -
[1341] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
RR on BS isnt a mainstay thing in PvP and hasnt been for a number of years. With the new t1 logi thats even more so now.
The neut while handy isnt all that great. Most things are dead before they cap out and frigs regen their cap enough between cycles to render large neuts on them ineffective. They also suffer the same range issues as smartbombs and in a small gang a large smartbomb is problematic for your own frigates and drones.
Probers are not a massive loss as you cant fit combat probers on it and generally if you need a prober you will have someone in a cov ops anyway or for a WH gang enough probers around to not matter. The other use of a backup cyno for a fleet is no great loss either as you will have other ships for that too.
Most of the things you would put into that high will spend most of the time not getting used. An extra low however will provide more tank, more firepower, more speed, better ECM defence, more agility, more tracking, ect. Things that you will be using all the time. For people like me it will also offer room for more specialised fits for things the mega shouldn't really be able to do.
I didn't mean spider gangs, but a heavy RR can keep a smaller ship like tackle alive. Heavy neut will help breaking tanks. And the token probe launcher is nice to have on battleship since it's the most likely ship to end up on a wrong side of a hole.
Anyway, as you should notice- the extra low merely brings the tank or dps back to it's current levels. You gain nothing compared to current Mega, since it has better base stats to start with. Agility is irrelevant on a BS, you are slow no matter what you do. TEs will get nerfed so a midslot would be more valuable for tracking, same goes to ECCM.
All in all, this extra low slot just fix issues with base stats, but guess that was Rise's idea, to limit the Mega's usability.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
fukier
906
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:56:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Andski wrote:oh good a pointless launcher slot on the hyperion Obviously its for launching defenders to protect you from the Attack Ravens.
festive launcher can only be put on a missile hard point... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Major Killz
182
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:57:00 -
[1343] - Quote
Armageddon is will still be better than the Dominix solo or in large engagements. Why just shoot sentries when you can shoot lasers and sentries? I cant wait to try it out solo. Def does things I've wanted the Dominix to be able to do solo. As for the Megathron. We will see, but I feel I would rather use it with an active tank than the hype for near 2 times the cost. Not to say the hype is not good. I just like to watch my bank v0v
- killz |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
331
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:00:00 -
[1344] - Quote
I like the 5 mid mega better personally.
For the hyp, it's so different that I can't really say if it is better or not.
Though I'm still a big fan of removing the active rep bonus for a flat bonus to armor HP. It differentiates it from Amarr, allows for viable fleet doctrines, and allows the race to not need to fit plates (thus allowing them to be faster) which they so badly need. |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:03:00 -
[1345] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Armageddon is will still be better than the Dominix solo or in large engagements. Why just shoot sentries when you can shoot lasers and sentries? I cant wait to try it out solo. Def does things I've wanted the Dominix to be able to do solo. As for the Megathron. We will see, but I feel I would rather use it with an active tank than the hype for near 2 times the cost. Not to say the hype is not good. I just like to watch my bank v0v
- killz What exactly is stopping you from putting guns on the domi?
Hell, you could even put lasers on it if you really wanted [though their fitting would make them impractical]
Honestly the domi will put out more than enough DPS without guns aswell, not to mention the fact that it will be able to aply its DPS better to the point where heavies will hit frigates easily provided you add some DNCs. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5906
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:05:00 -
[1346] - Quote
Roime wrote:
I didn't mean spider gangs, but a heavy RR can keep a smaller ship like tackle alive. Heavy neut will help breaking tanks. And the token probe launcher is nice to have on battleship since it's the most likely ship to end up on a wrong side of a hole.
Anyway, as you should notice- the extra low merely brings the tank or dps back to it's current levels. You gain nothing compared to current Mega, since it has better base stats to start with. Agility is irrelevant on a BS, you are slow no matter what you do. TEs will get nerfed so a midslot would be more valuable for tracking, same goes to ECCM.
All in all, this extra low slot just fix issues with base stats, but guess that was Rise's idea, to limit the Mega's usability.
Agility does matter on a BS as does speed. With the built in tracking the TE will help that little bit more and low slot ECCM is still good to have.
The high slot is something we can live without but you you really want it then the hype is probably more to your taste now. |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:09:00 -
[1347] - Quote
Swing and miss for the Mega. Re-arranging the slot layout can only fix so much. May as well of left it the way it is if you don't correct the current issues. This proposal is better than the last one your proposed, but still comes up short in tackling the current issues with the ship.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:18:00 -
[1348] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Armageddon is will still be better than the Dominix solo or in large engagements. Why just shoot sentries when you can shoot lasers and sentries? I cant wait to try it out solo. Def does things I've wanted the Dominix to be able to do solo. As for the Megathron. We will see, but I feel I would rather use it with an active tank than the hype for near 2 times the cost. Not to say the hype is not good. I just like to watch my bank v0v - killz They ninja bumped up the Dominix PG to 10k, and reduced the Armageddon PG to 13.5k. |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:18:00 -
[1349] - Quote
So from what I'm guessing.
Hyperion.. its good (between ok and good). May or maynot see it out and about, but better than it is now.
Megathron. Dunno as of yet.
Least the forums much quieter from the past 2 days of "WTF You Destroyed Gallente" threads.
|
Tara Read
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
319
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:19:00 -
[1350] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted.
Hyperion:
Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Megathron:
With the Hyperion moving to more of a combat/utility ship via its drones, heavy mid-slot allocation, and spare high, we felt the mega could now afford to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat. Instead of the former 8/5/6 utility focused set up, we now have a 7/4/8 hybrid damage machine that has sacrificed its utility high (which was often unused) to gain another low - giving it more access to damage, damage application/projection, or tank. It stays in its attack role and therefor retains the previously described increases to speed and agility. This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
OMFG they all look freakin' awesome! PLEASE keep these changes. An 8 low slot Mega AND a double dmg Hyp with the mid retained? I'm sobbing tears of joy CCP....
GUYS LOOK AT THAT MEGA!!!! LOOK AT IT!!
Just let it sink in.... Rof increase (better applied dmg) plus the Mega GAINS a low slot while retaining the agility and speed increase. It's the Gun Boat we've been dreaming of.... REJOICE!! |
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Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
363
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:19:00 -
[1351] - Quote
8 high slots for weapons.
minny - check amarr - check caldari - check gallente - oh noes.
|
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:27:00 -
[1352] - Quote
William R Blake wrote:Hyperion :
Seems good to me, although im not sure if it can run dual repper to go with its bonus decently.
Mega :
The plus on the low slots is good,tho i believe most ppl here prefer 7/5/7. Not sure about the RoF bonus. and if u can just buff the armor a little bit it would be nice OR make it faster and more agile.
DAT DRONE BANDWITH/BAY! come on guys, at least keep it at 100/125. Nerfing it to 75/75 is too much!
Domi :
Im not sure how i feel about Domi, it seem now the Domi is meant to be use with Sentry with this bonuses. How about Heavy drones?
All in All, im afraid Amarr BSes will have more versatility and will do better at EVERYTHING compared to Gallente BSes. As a new player i hate for this to happen. I dont have time to train all BSes and its weapon system
Well the Amarr BS has choices. The Dominix does also, it just doesn't have a bonus to whatever. The dominix drones are more effective, it has a variety (swap sentries for heavies), and it really has no need to run an active tank, or even guns. Its Midslots can virtually be Anything (sensor damps, target painters, sensor boosters, cap boosters), and its highs can be anything (guns, neuts, smartbombs, etc).
Best way to see is to pit them both against each other. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
392
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:33:00 -
[1353] - Quote
hype is better, kinda fixed its issues.
with the mega give it its drone bay back and it will do, although would rather see 7/5/7 and 5 heavy's tbh OMG when can i get a pic here
|
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:34:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:hype is better, kinda fixed its issues.
with the mega give it its drone bay back and it will do, although would rather see 7/5/7 and 5 heavy's tbh yes and i would like to see my raven do 10 sentries at the same time , it only has 6 launchers after all :( |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:47:00 -
[1355] - Quote
Varesk wrote:8 high slots for weapons.
minny - check amarr - check caldari - check gallente - oh noes.
If the bonuses are equivalent to 8 high slots.. could care less. We get more use off having mids and lows than we have having highs in these situations. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:48:00 -
[1356] - Quote
In what way is proposed Megathron better than the proposed Hyperion?
Hyperion: Better fitting stats. Check Better baseline tank all around. Check 7 m/s slower than Mega. Hey, at least something is better for the Megathron.
5th mid = tracking computer/tracking speed. 30% tracking bonus. Check. Better tracking. There goes the Megathron bonus.
dps from Drones: 125 more dps from 2x Ogres II's. Check. 9 effective turrets vs 8.75. Check One more utility high slot. Check
If Hyperion has no mag stabs, and Mega has one mag stab: 792 dps vs 815 dps. This difference could be accounted for with the launcher high slot of the Hyperion.
So, overall, Hyperion crowds into the Megathron space way too much. Why should I fly the Megathron? Not for rails. Other race's BS are clearly superior.
What is the Megathron's niche?
|
Dante KamiyaX
STARK INDUSTRIES.INCX
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:50:00 -
[1357] - Quote
Hype is going to look funny with 6 guns on an 8 turret hard point design. It's going to have holes in the ship where turrets use to be WTF! Are you all going to redesign it to fix the turret holes? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:51:00 -
[1358] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:
If the bonuses are equivalent to 8 high slots.. could care less. We get more use off having mids and lows than we have having highs in these situations.
They're not. 8*1.25 = 10. 6*1.5 = 9, 7*1.25 = 8.75. Yikes. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1257
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:57:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Dante KamiyaX wrote:Hype is going to look funny with 6 guns on an 8 turret hard point design. It's going to have holes in the ship where turrets use to be WTF! Are you all going to redesign it to fix the turret holes? The art team is already boiling the tar. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7428
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:17:00 -
[1360] - Quote
fukier wrote:festive launcher can only be put on a missile hard point...
I guess it'll be useful for the "Hyperions no longer suck entirely!" party mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1253
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:18:00 -
[1361] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hyperion vs. Megathron. Self quoting ftl, but the potential solution is to make the Hyperion the "attack BS" and Megathron the "combat BS". Adjust baseline speed and tanking stats accordingly. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:28:00 -
[1362] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:In what way is proposed Megathron better than the proposed Hyperion?
Hyperion: Better fitting stats. Check Better baseline tank all around. Check 7 m/s slower than Mega. Hey, at least something is better for the Megathron.
5th mid = tracking computer/tracking speed. 30% tracking bonus. Check. Better tracking. There goes the Megathron bonus.
dps from Drones: 125 more dps from 2x Ogres II's. Check. 9 effective turrets vs 8.75. Check One more utility high slot. Check
If Hyperion has no mag stabs, and Mega has one mag stab: 792 dps vs 815 dps. This difference could be accounted for with the launcher high slot of the Hyperion.
So, overall, Hyperion crowds into the Megathron space way too much. Why should I fly the Megathron? Not for rails. Other race's BS are clearly superior.
What is the Megathron's niche?
Edit: I think CCP is in a tough spot here. They clearly don't want to make the Megathron a good fleet ship by making it good with railguns (CPU...), and active repping bonuses suck, so they're left with two overlapping BS. Either Hyperion will be nerfed back to irrelevance, or it will crowd out the Megathron's engagement envelope. This is supposed to be about tiericide, but the Megathron has not been boosted to appropriate power level. Mega has rate of fire bonus so that is more like 7x1.33 = 9.31 turrets. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
284
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:29:00 -
[1363] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Tennessee Jack wrote:
If the bonuses are equivalent to 8 high slots.. could care less. We get more use off having mids and lows than we have having highs in these situations.
They're not. 8*1.25 = 10. 6*1.5 = 9, 7*1.25 = 8.75. Yikes.
Mega has a 5% rof bonus which works out to more than 25% basic damage bonus. I don't know the exact figure but I blieve the effective "damage donus" from a 25% rof bonus is actually more like a 33% damage bonus.
With that in mind the mega has 7 x 1.33 effective turrets which = 9.3
I'm sure that's more or less correct but please look into it further for me |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
462
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:29:00 -
[1364] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Tennessee Jack wrote:
If the bonuses are equivalent to 8 high slots.. could care less. We get more use off having mids and lows than we have having highs in these situations.
They're not. 8*1.25 = 10. 6*1.5 = 9, 7*1.25 = 8.75. Yikes. Wrong. 25% ROF = +33% dps increase.
So: 1.33*7 = 9.31 for the Megathron.
and 1.5 *6 = 9 for the Hyperion
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
169
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:32:00 -
[1365] - Quote
The drones make up the difference on the Hype, but neither has enough DPS at this point to make up for the deficiencies in the ships themselves. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
842
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:36:00 -
[1366] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: They ninja bumped up the Dominix PG to 10k, and reduced the Armageddon PG to 13.5k.
As was pointed out earlier there is limited uses for that extra power grid with such a tight control range. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
463
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:40:00 -
[1367] - Quote
Hyperion vs Megathron
Base speed/agility: Megathron Base Targeting Range/Resolution: Megathron Signature: Megathron Turret Damage: Megathron Max Resists: Megathron
EHP: Hyperion Active tanking: Hyperion Max DPS: Hyperion Utility: Hyperion Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:40:00 -
[1368] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:The drones make up the difference on the Hype, but neither has enough DPS at this point to make up for the deficiencies in the ships themselves.
Nah, the Hype has more than enough DPS for having that much utility, but the Mega could use a smidge more. |
Nabuch Sattva
The Green Cross RED University
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:42:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Ok!! Much better second pass on the gallente line. Thanks Rise. Keep it up!
Love the way the hype is looking.
On the Mega, i think swapping to a 7/5/7 layout, would be better. Keeping the shield variety viable as well as more options for the armor version.
That would make 2 Gal BSs with the same slot layout, but with very different play styles.
|
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
284
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:43:00 -
[1370] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Hyperion vs Megathron
Base speed/agility: Megathron Base Targeting Range/Resolution: Megathron Signature: Megathron Turret Damage: Megathron Max Resists: Megathron
EHP: Hyperion Active tanking: Hyperion Max DPS: Hyperion Utility: Hyperion
Essentially. I can honestly see the Megathron becoming a fleet ship too. The slot layout, tracking bonus and RoF bonus all make this ship very good at long range fleet ops of ye olde days. The Talos only beats it in mobility as the Mega will have range and the ability to survive getting alpha'd. |
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1253
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:51:00 -
[1371] - Quote
OK, will adjust. 1056 dps for Megathron(1 mag stab), 956 dps for Hyperion + 36 for HAM = 990 dps.
We're down to 7 m/s and 66 more dps for "equivalently fit" Megathron vs Hyperion. Is that enough of a separation, or is Hyperion invading Megathron's niche too much? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1253
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:53:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:X Gallentius wrote: They ninja bumped up the Dominix PG to 10k, and reduced the Armageddon PG to 13.5k.
As was pointed out earlier there is limited uses for that extra power grid with such a tight control range. Such as an extra Heavy Energy Nuetralizer on the Domi perhaps?
Edit: Not saying that's great, but at least the Domi is starting to invade the Geddon's space like the Geddon has invaded the Domi's space. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
284
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:55:00 -
[1373] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:OK, will adjust. 1056 dps for Megathron(1 mag stab), 956 dps for Hyperion + 36 for HAM = 990 dps.
We're down to 7 m/s and 66 more dps for "equivalently fit" Megathron vs Hyperion. Is that enough of a separation, or is Hyperion invading Megathron's niche too much?
I think the fact that the Hyperion steps on the toes of the Megathron in terms of mobility is actually intended. Gallente blaster boats after all are supposed to air towards being attack ships. The Megathron has the beauty of being a good combat or attack BS too. |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:58:00 -
[1374] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Hyperion vs. Megathron. Self quoting ftl, but the potential solution is to make the Hyperion the "attack BS" and Megathron the "combat BS". Adjust baseline speed and tanking stats accordingly.
THIS is just logical... look at the hyperion its a giant thruster... the fact it is not the attack bs is just odd. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
842
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:59:00 -
[1375] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:X Gallentius wrote: They ninja bumped up the Dominix PG to 10k, and reduced the Armageddon PG to 13.5k.
As was pointed out earlier there is limited uses for that extra power grid with such a tight control range. Such as an extra Heavy Energy Nuetralizer on the Domi perhaps? Edit: Not saying that's great, but at least the Domi is starting to invade the Geddon's space like the Geddon has invaded the Domi's space. Are walking about the Dominix or the Armageddon? To use the optimal bonus one does not need the extra grid, for close range the grid was not really needed. Hold for neutron blasters which are still way to tight to fit. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3299
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:02:00 -
[1376] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Hyperion:
Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Oh god. Dat ship. Loses a bit in damage, gains in flexibility, tank, and practical damage. I... I love you CCP Rise.
Quote: Megathron: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Hmmmm..... I like it, I think.
Quote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I'm still a sad panda over this. I'm really hoping you leave the Navy Domi alone with the Hybrid + Drone damage bonus.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
223
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:08:00 -
[1377] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Tennessee Jack wrote:
If the bonuses are equivalent to 8 high slots.. could care less. We get more use off having mids and lows than we have having highs in these situations.
They're not. 8*1.25 = 10. 6*1.5 = 9, 7*1.25 = 8.75. Yikes. Wrong. 25% ROF = +33% dps increase. So: 1.33*7 = 9.31 for the Megathron. and 1.5 *6 = 9 for the Hyperion
WRONG! According to CCP Rise it is 50% the dps increase ;-) |
Major Killz
184
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:09:00 -
[1378] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Major Killz wrote:Armageddon is will still be better than the Dominix solo or in large engagements. Why just shoot sentries when you can shoot lasers and sentries? I cant wait to try it out solo. Def does things I've wanted the Dominix to be able to do solo. As for the Megathron. We will see, but I feel I would rather use it with an active tank than the hype for near 2 times the cost. Not to say the hype is not good. I just like to watch my bank v0v - killz They ninja bumped up the Dominix PG to 10k, and reduced the Armageddon PG to 13.5k.
Interesting. That would solve some issues when comparing the to vessels. I can still put together a solid setup for fleet engagements with omnidirectional tracking links and adequate defenses.
As far as solo. I would be best served using 1 auxiliary armor repair and alot of buffer. I would still be able to engage pilots who were furthur away as well as close. The Dominix has always had that as a weakness but neutralizers and lasers can fix that.
To bad. I really wanted to see your team at CCP fail and get fired. Call me a C*NT but I like to see people fail and get hurt v0v. Makes me feel better about my lonely and miserable life. Too bad
- killz |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:10:00 -
[1379] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Tennessee Jack wrote:
If the bonuses are equivalent to 8 high slots.. could care less. We get more use off having mids and lows than we have having highs in these situations.
They're not. 8*1.25 = 10. 6*1.5 = 9, 7*1.25 = 8.75. Yikes. Wrong. 25% ROF = +33% dps increase. So: 1.33*7 = 9.31 for the Megathron. and 1.5 *6 = 9 for the Hyperion
pretry sure drone bay makes up the difference...
plus the alpha on the hype is much better then the mega...
not saying alpha on blasters is much... but hey its something At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:11:00 -
[1380] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I'm still a sad panda over this. I'm really hoping you leave the Navy Domi alone with the Hybrid + Drone damage bonus.
-Liang[/quote]
navy domi?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
|
DragonZer0
Sons Of Alexander AL3XAND3R.
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:11:00 -
[1381] - Quote
Looking good over all.
|
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:22:00 -
[1382] - Quote
i fear that people were so unhappy with the 1st iteration of the ships that they are overjoyed at the second try and not ask for the lack fleet gal bs... and accept that the attack bs is a combat and the combat is attack...
but sigh it looks like i will have to live with the changes and just use a rokh for fleets untill a Polish Pass. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
GeneralNukeEm
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:22:00 -
[1383] - Quote
Please consider making the Megathron a 7/5/7, 7 gun and 125m3 drone platform. I leave the speed/signature radius/etc balancing to you.
1. This still does not overlap with the new hyperion, as it specializes in raw damage output versus being a more rounded ship with the utility high slot. 2. Even in a buffer armor fit, the fifth mid slot (allowing for MWD/MJD/point/web/injector) is of far more utility for megathron than an extra low slot. This is especially so considering the Megathron's role as an "attack" battleship; slapping more armor plates and resistances in that last low slot seems like something that "combat" battleships should be doing. Also, the fifth mid slot allows for some flexibility in play style (shield fits) instead of forcing the Megahtron into always fitting an armor buffer. 3. A Megathron without its historic five Ogre IIs feels terribly wrong. At 75/75, what is inevitably going to happen is a mix of medium and light drones; this again is not in line with the Megathron's historic role as the premiere raw DPS battleship. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
392
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:23:00 -
[1384] - Quote
Take one of the top slots from domi and trow it down! make it 8 Lows!!!!! You reduced even further the dominix DPS with this balance! Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:26:00 -
[1385] - Quote
I better sell my megathron navy issue. The tech 1 will be my new mission ship. It looks like a nice ship again. The hyperion is going to be a mean brawler. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:32:00 -
[1386] - Quote
fukier wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I'm still a sad panda over this. I'm really hoping you leave the Navy Domi alone with the Hybrid + Drone damage bonus.
-Liang
navy domi? Seems there turning the old ships into the new Navy Ships (least the good old ship's).
The Domi needs something. I can't quite figure out what the heck its missing, but it is missing something. There has been talk about an updated Dominix model. I'm thinking that would help.. well it would help a ton.
Fitting wise... I guess the question is that no one has really fit out a "Pure" droneboat, and used it to great success. The main question that I can figure is... well what do we do with the highslots, they have no bonus. THe armageddon is getting both a Neut range bonus, plus its high slots can fit any weapon system (getting equal launcher and turret hard points). Yes it is unbonused but it gains flexibility like the Prophecy. I'm fine with that.
The Dominix does need something. Maybe the hull look upgrade might do it. And if they tweak the sentry drone issues, that might do it too.
I got it. It needs a bonus to the Microwarp Drive speed of drones. It needs a way to get Heavy Drones moving fast enough to warrant their deployment. The Algos has it as a role bonus.
Role bonus: 25% bonus to drone microwarpdrive speed
That might do it. It would give the dominix the option to deploy as a sentry platform, or to muscle its way into 40+ and closer range and use its highslots for rails/blaster mix as well as giving the Heavy Drones more movement they need to deploy out and be effective (Rather than the heavy drones spending 20 to 40 seconds MWD over to the ship to go blow it up.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% and Drone microwarpdrive speed. +10% Drone Damage, Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed
That would probably do it. Though I'm not totally sure heavy's even having 25% more mwd speed would be enough for them (for mediums and lights, definetly, but heavies...).
|
JamesCLK
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:36:00 -
[1387] - Quote
If there's one gripe I have, it's that attack battleships are either overshadowed by ABCs (a faster platform with the same caliber of firepower) in the Attack role, or by combat BS in the tank and gank aspect. With the new stats, we have ships that can field a decent tank, but they're still rather painfully slow. Yet giving them too much more speed impedes on ABC territory.
Don't get me wrong, I like the new ABS - especially the Mega - but they're still not as mobile as they could be.
I'm not entirely certain if this is a good solution, but there was a post somewhere about marrying the MJD to the Attack Battleships (with a role bonus) to give them a more unique take on the attack role. A reduction in activation time for MJDs to allow these ships to get around the grid much faster. I'm not sure about what constitutes balanced numbers here, but something like a 50% reduction in spool time (4 second spool up at level 5 MJD Operation) could make these battleships actually able to tackle things in a timely fashion. The MJD jumps you forward from the point in space where you activated it, yet the target is usually still burning away, resulting in too short a jump. Shortening the time to jump means arriving relatively closer to the target than otherwise. Attack battleships with this role bonus could utilize the MJD more aggressively than other ships.
An alternative might be a tackle range role bonus. Malcanis, Mynnna and Ripard Teg for CSM 8! |
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:38:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Id love to see that rep bonus gone from the Hyperion so its more viable for fleets, perhaps a falloff bonus would be more appropriate?
The problem with repair bonus' is you are limiting the ship to 1 function, Maelstroms suffer the same fate and to a lesser extent, Astares, Myrm's, Cyclones (which.most people fly buffer tanked!).
I know some people will call herasy at the suggestion but surely if you are doing tiericide to make ships get used more then surely you should remove the bonus' like this that shoehorn the ship into 1 role.
Im getting ready for a few slaps but I had to speak my mind, sorry :) |
Borachon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:39:00 -
[1389] - Quote
Quote: The Dominix does need something. I believe It needs a bonus to the Microwarp Drive speed of drones. It needs a way to get Heavy Drones moving fast enough to warrant their deployment. The Algos has it as a role bonus.
If only there was a midslot item to increase drone microwarp speed, and you didn't need to burn midslots on the Domi to get good tracking because the hull bonus took care of that for you... |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
117
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:40:00 -
[1390] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Imo all the Gall ships should be faster. Hyp might make a better "attack BS" but there's something rather incongruous about a battleship that's supposed to be fast moving. The whole idea of attack BS really doesn't translate into reality imo. But I think that it's a problem that affects all the blaster ships. Even if we switched the names around and called the Hype the attack BS and the mega the combat BS, the truth is that they still would not work because they don't have the speed to get to target, they don't have enough DPS to make up for the HP they've lost getting to target, and on top of that they don't have the tank to really hold up even if they started at their optimal. That the Hype might be a bit faster fitting active rep doesn't really change much, because in a gang situation you're going to want to plate it anyway, lest it die in a ball of fire before you get two shots off.
What I'm trying to point out is that there is a fundamental design flaw with the blaster brawlers in their current iteration that is not being addressed properly with these balance changes. Even if the Mega was called the combat BS, it wouldn't change the fact that it's just not an effective ship with blasters and with rails it just is completely outclassed by the pulse baddon and the other ranged setups. This ship balancing pass was supposed to be the second part of the fix to this problem after the hybrid changes came in, and yet it really doesn't measure up. Well the difficulty is twofold: First, Gallente boats NEED to close into point-blank range in order to apply dps, but when they get there, they're expected to be bricks. So you can't have the mobility and the brick nature together; they compete with each other. Some solutions would be: longer range webs to hold targets to get into range (already taken), lowering the sig bloom from MWD (irrelevant on a large sig'd BS), or quick spool up on MJD (an instant "blink;" useful to close in, but OP), just to name a few, but all beset with problems. So then Gallente get a "rep bonus" that means their ships can be fast, but that has its own unique set of problems--
Second, CCP has already "given out" resist bonuses to Amarr, so the other tank bonus has to go to Gallente (the active rep bonus). Since the rep bonus is terrible (due to the nature of active repping/not applying to buffer/not useful for logi/poor performance of modules/cap use, etc.) and Blasters (or rails, which aren't very Gallente anyway) don't have any "special snowflake" quality (*cough* high alpha Maels wasting their shield boost bonus but still being useful), the Gallente boats don't have anything going for them, so-to-speak. Domis can't sniper kite, because they'd have to leave their sentries behind, they don't neut as well as the other drone BS, and Hyperions and Megas can't close range/apply damage well enough to be relevant in a fleet situation. They'd have to be too tanky to survive the approach, as to be too op tanked in range, or too fast/instant that'd break the balance.
And if you're smart, and on the opposing side of a close-range Gallente BS fleet, and you spot the MJD graphic spooling up for 12 sec, you're aligned and ready to leave when they pop in anyway. :S
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Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:40:00 -
[1391] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:fukier wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I'm still a sad panda over this. I'm really hoping you leave the Navy Domi alone with the Hybrid + Drone damage bonus.
-Liang
navy domi? Seems there turning the old ships into the new Navy Ships (least the good old ship's). The Domi needs something. I can't quite figure out what the heck its missing, but it is missing something. There has been talk about an updated Dominix model. I'm thinking that would help.. well it would help a ton ( A refresh on the spacepotato, spacecow, rottensneaker, floatingturdmobile would help ). Fitting wise... I guess the question is that no one has really fit out a "Pure" droneboat, and used it to great success. The main question that I can figure is... well what do we do with the highslots, they have no bonus. THe armageddon is getting both a Neut range bonus, plus its high slots can fit any weapon system (getting equal launcher and turret hard points). Yes it is unbonused but it gains flexibility like the Prophecy. I'm fine with that. The Dominix does need something. I believe It needs a bonus to the Microwarp Drive speed of drones. It needs a way to get Heavy Drones moving fast enough to warrant their deployment. The Algos has it as a role bonus. Algos Role bonus: 25% bonus to drone microwarpdrive speed That might do it. It would give the Dominix the option to deploy as a sentry platform, or to muscle its way into 40+ and closer range and use its highslots for rails/blaster mix as well as giving the Heavy Drones more movement they need to deploy out and be effective (Rather than the heavy drones spending 20 to 40 seconds MWD over to the ship to go blow it up. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% and Drone microwarpdrive speed. +10% Drone Damage, Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed That would probably do it. Though I'm not totally sure heavy's even having 25% more mwd speed would be enough for them (for mediums and lights, definetly, but heavies...).
If only there was battleship sized drone control units...!
|
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:43:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Shingorash wrote:Id love to see that rep bonus gone from the Hyperion so its more viable for fleets, perhaps a falloff bonus would be more appropriate?
The problem with repair bonus' is you are limiting the ship to 1 function, Maelstroms suffer the same fate and to a lesser extent, Astares, Myrm's, Cyclones (which.most people fly buffer tanked!).
I know some people will call herasy at the suggestion but surely if you are doing tiericide to make ships get used more then surely you should remove the bonus' like this that shoehorn the ship into 1 role.
Im getting ready for a few slaps but I had to speak my mind, sorry :)
Also, extra midslot, falloff bonus, humm shield hyperion might actually work! |
Imawuss
Origin. Black Legion.
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:51:00 -
[1393] - Quote
+1 Rise,
Changes look fantastic cant wait to see what we can do with the fittings.
I like how CPU will be a limiting factor on the mega but not crippling. Be interesting if this can be turned into a fleet line dps doctrine, def has potential. The loss of drone bandwidth won't have an effect on this nor the - utility high slot but the +1 low really will help it out, now it just depends on if the dps from rails can get high enough or the range on blasters far enough.
Hyperion looks legit, i can see this used much more in small gangs. Cap was a big thing on this it could not even run its rack of guns without capping itself out, now that won't be an issue with the new damage bonus and -2 turrets. the 7 lows make it viable for tank and dps while the mids allow it to actually use its rep bonus still.
Domi well i love this new one, i used this as a pve ship and the changes help that. in PVP it worked out well and i never fit blasters/rails on it for that purpose anyways so in all i think its in a better shape, at least how i fly it. and +1000 pg will be very much appreciated.
well done guys, mixed it up and improved these ships. |
Boston Bradley
Saturday Night Palsy Catastrophic Uprising
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:51:00 -
[1394] - Quote
Issue: Dominix Change
If anything, the change you've made to the Dominix is a gigantic nerf. If people were worried about the tracking of drones they would simply attach an omnidirectional tracking link, but now due to your incompetence to see the utility of a Dominix in a PvE setting you've nerfed a large portion of its potential damage.
You just boosted a perfect drone boat with a useless bonus that was already handed by an omnidirectional tracking link.
Seriously, don't make changes to boats you don't understand, because clearly you don't understand what mods are. |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:57:00 -
[1395] - Quote
Shingorash wrote:Tennessee Jack wrote:fukier wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I'm still a sad panda over this. I'm really hoping you leave the Navy Domi alone with the Hybrid + Drone damage bonus.
-Liang
navy domi? Seems there turning the old ships into the new Navy Ships (least the good old ship's). The Domi needs something. I can't quite figure out what the heck its missing, but it is missing something. There has been talk about an updated Dominix model. I'm thinking that would help.. well it would help a ton ( A refresh on the spacepotato, spacecow, rottensneaker, floatingturdmobile would help ). Fitting wise... I guess the question is that no one has really fit out a "Pure" droneboat, and used it to great success. The main question that I can figure is... well what do we do with the highslots, they have no bonus. THe armageddon is getting both a Neut range bonus, plus its high slots can fit any weapon system (getting equal launcher and turret hard points). Yes it is unbonused but it gains flexibility like the Prophecy. I'm fine with that. The Dominix does need something. I believe It needs a bonus to the Microwarp Drive speed of drones. It needs a way to get Heavy Drones moving fast enough to warrant their deployment. The Algos has it as a role bonus. Algos Role bonus: 25% bonus to drone microwarpdrive speed That might do it. It would give the Dominix the option to deploy as a sentry platform, or to muscle its way into 40+ and closer range and use its highslots for rails/blaster mix as well as giving the Heavy Drones more movement they need to deploy out and be effective (Rather than the heavy drones spending 20 to 40 seconds MWD over to the ship to go blow it up. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% and Drone microwarpdrive speed. +10% Drone Damage, Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed That would probably do it. Though I'm not totally sure heavy's even having 25% more mwd speed would be enough for them (for mediums and lights, definetly, but heavies...). If only there was battleship sized drone control units...!
Considered that, it would draw too many issues. We'd have to assume drones are locked at 5 max for BS's and below. Would it be good for the Dominix to gain more drones.. yep. I don't see how they could/would balance it with the ship, as other ships could equip the module also. There is only so much you can do with the Dominix based on the limits present in the game. A sensor dampening bonus won't do a damn thing, can't give the domi jam bonuses, neuts and vamp bonuses, Armageddon has it. The things left for highslots, blasters, rails, smart bombs, repairers, energy transporters, Drone Control Units (locked to carriers).
Maybe it should have a way to increase the effectiveness of all drones, not just guns. We have target painters, webbers, ecm drones, sensor damp drones. Now this goes more towards the Drone revamp which may or maynot happen.
The damage drones, all DPS based drones, locked at 5. A Drone Control Unit would do the following
Allows the ship to control 1 additional Electronic Warfare Drone.
So yes the ship can actually launch more than 5 drones (if it has the bandwidth), but the 6th drone and beyond can only be Electronic Warfare Drones.
Of course something like that would require some balancing, but the Drone Control Unit could literally turn into the new "Utility" slot for ships, if the pilot so wants it. It would just be restricted to ECM drones.
So if your ship had 3 of those new Drone Control Units, it could field 5 Drones, plus 3 more drones, but those drones are Ewar. Your essentially giving up highslots for more drones. Yep its a drop in DPS (pertaining to your own guns), but its a gain in utility (or a buff in your drone dps due to having webber drones, target painters on the field, increasing your own drone dps cause the things now slower and bigger).
I would restrict this to Ewar
This is a completely different idea though, and does not address the Dominix issue. What would it need to be on par with the Armageddon. |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:58:00 -
[1396] - Quote
Shingorash wrote:Id love to see that rep bonus gone from the Hyperion so its more viable for fleets, perhaps a falloff bonus would be more appropriate?
The problem with repair bonus' is you are limiting the ship to 1 function, Maelstroms suffer the same fate and to a lesser extent, Astares, Myrm's, Cyclones (which.most people fly buffer tanked!).
I know some people will call herasy at the suggestion but surely if you are doing tiericide to make ships get used more then surely you should remove the bonus' like this that shoehorn the ship into 1 role.
Im getting ready for a few slaps but I had to speak my mind, sorry :)
or they can fix the rep bonus by making the 7.5% also affect cap activation and make the heat bonus better. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3052
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:02:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Mega just needs a significant chunk of CPU and maybe a slight armor HP boost and it is fleet viable.
The original idea of 600 CPU was great. No idea why that got shelved. The ship was already CPU crippled, and adding a low with only 20 more CPU doesn't change that fact.
Otherwise, the slot layout is beautiful. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:09:00 -
[1398] - Quote
fukier wrote:Shingorash wrote:Id love to see that rep bonus gone from the Hyperion so its more viable for fleets, perhaps a falloff bonus would be more appropriate?
The problem with repair bonus' is you are limiting the ship to 1 function, Maelstroms suffer the same fate and to a lesser extent, Astares, Myrm's, Cyclones (which.most people fly buffer tanked!).
I know some people will call herasy at the suggestion but surely if you are doing tiericide to make ships get used more then surely you should remove the bonus' like this that shoehorn the ship into 1 role.
Im getting ready for a few slaps but I had to speak my mind, sorry :) or they can fix the rep bonus by making the 7.5% also affect cap activation and make the heat bonus better.
Its the whole Buffer VS Active Tank debate. The active tank does not help the ship in massive fleet fights. In very small groups with no logistics.. yes it can do wonders if its not neuted to death (then again, we use cap batt's for that). The main arguement, least as far as I can see, is that while the ships lighter, faster, it will die in a fire long before it can get close enough to actually Do anything (or blow up before someone can repair it). The active repairer doesn't help in large fleet combat.
You can go two extremes.. Massive EHP, or massive Hit Points. You go too high on the hit points, the ship becomes too buffed with its abilitiy to repair, but it lives longer under massive fire. Massive EHP... same issue, that and it turns into an Amarr ship.
The same thing can be said for Active shield tanking, though it seems the shield tankers can generally still buffer themselves a good deal (and the repair application is immediate upon module activating, giving instant repaired buffer to the shield ship, the armor repairer's after damage repair.
If damage is done gradually, the active repair ships would be awesome. If the dev's decided to figure out how to make the active repair modules (shield and armor repairers), cause a slowed bleeding damage stacking effect, they'd be much better, especially for fleet doctrines without logistics.
Its an odd balance between tank and defense. |
Cameron Cahill
Out of Chaos. Space Immigration
209
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:29:00 -
[1399] - Quote
Yay you've fixed it. |
Borachon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:30:00 -
[1400] - Quote
Boston Bradley wrote:Issue: Dominix Change
You just boosted a perfect drone boat with a useless bonus that was already handed by an omnidirectional tracking link.
Good to know that free midslots aren't scarce or valuable. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
638
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:42:00 -
[1401] - Quote
Borachon wrote:Boston Bradley wrote:Issue: Dominix Change
You just boosted a perfect drone boat with a useless bonus that was already handed by an omnidirectional tracking link.
Good to know that free midslots aren't scarce or valuable. Or just use the omni's anyways to allow gardes II's to work at 60+km. |
Lee Vanden
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:45:00 -
[1402] - Quote
CCP, as said many times in this thread already, the active tanking bonus on the Hyperion ensures that it will never be used in fleet engagements because it will pop after the first enemy volley.
You state that you don't want to give up on active armor tanking and that's fine on smaller ships, but active tanking only works in solo and small group PvP engagements. Generally speaking however most people simply don't do small group or solo PvP in battleships, especially armor battleships as they're too slow and cumbersome, so this means that the active armor tanked Hyp is really only ever gonna get used in PvE.
To give it a meaningful PvP role the local rep bonus either needs to be replaced with Local AND Remote Rep or better yet simply do away with it, raise the armor HP and instead give it some help getting into range of its targets like a 10% bonus to AB and MWD speed or a 20% range bonus to stasis webifiers or warp scramblers per level. In doing so you'll solve many of the blaster boats problems and might make the Hyperion a decent choice for fleet PvP. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3350
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:48:00 -
[1403] - Quote
I'm still not sold on the Dominix changes to the bonus. Was there no other options on the table CCP Rise??
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
843
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:51:00 -
[1404] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I'm still not sold on the Dominix changes to the bonus. Was there no other options on the table CCP Rise?? It would be nice to see other options, and several have been brought up by players, I can't say that I like this Dominix any better than current or better than the Armageddon. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:52:00 -
[1405] - Quote
Lee Vanden wrote:CCP, as said many times in this thread already, the active tanking bonus on the Hyperion ensures that it will never be used in fleet engagements because it will pop after the first enemy volley.
You state that you don't want to give up on active armor tanking and that's fine on smaller ships, but active tanking only works in solo and small group PvP engagements. Generally speaking however most people simply don't do small group or solo PvP in battleships, especially armor battleships as they're too slow and cumbersome, so this means that the active armor tanked Hyp is really only ever gonna get used in PvE.
To give it a meaningful PvP role the local rep bonus either needs to be replaced with Local AND Remote Rep or better yet simply do away with it, raise the armor HP and instead give it some help getting into range of its targets like a 10% bonus to AB and MWD speed or a 20% range bonus to stasis webifiers or warp scramblers per level. In doing so you'll solve many of the blaster boats problems and might make the Hyperion a decent choice for fleet PvP.
Essentially exactly what I was thinking except I said falloff bonus for the extra range rather than a mwd bonus. Both are Gallente teaits so they both fit in the meta. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
393
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:54:00 -
[1406] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:hype is better, kinda fixed its issues.
with the mega give it its drone bay back and it will do, although would rather see 7/5/7 and 5 heavy's tbh yes and i would like to see my raven do 10 sentries at the same time , it only has 6 launchers after all :(
im pretty sure the torp raven does more dps than a mega in this new form even if the mega has 5 heavy drones.
that issue aside, these changes are way better than the first round, even if you nerf the bandwidth of the mega let it keep its bay size. OMG when can i get a pic here
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Winter Archipelago
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:58:00 -
[1407] - Quote
What if, for the Hyperion, instead of having a bonus to armor repair amount per level, it had a reduction in armor repair cap use per level? |
aetherguy881
Malformed Entity C.L.O.N.E.
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:00:00 -
[1408] - Quote
Rate of fire is going to hurt the mega's cap. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3052
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:01:00 -
[1409] - Quote
This is draft 1 for the Fleet Mega, you can see how CPU is the only thing holding it back. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:04:00 -
[1410] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:What if, for the Hyperion, instead of having a bonus to armor repair amount per level, it had a reduction in armor repair cap use per level?
would be quite terrible cause most ships are usually already using the max ammount of repairers they can fit and the hp/s is even with the bonus not enugh to be competitive with shield one of the problem also is that there are no armor crystals Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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elitatwo
Congregatio
70
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:04:00 -
[1411] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:hype is better, kinda fixed its issues.
with the mega give it its drone bay back and it will do, although would rather see 7/5/7 and 5 heavy's tbh yes and i would like to see my raven do 10 sentries at the same time , it only has 6 launchers after all :( im pretty sure the torp raven does more dps than a mega in this new form even if the mega has 5 heavy drones. that issue aside, these changes are way better than the first round, even if you nerf the bandwidth of the mega let it keep its bay size.
You mean that the Raven can hurt a station with torpedos or a moon for that matter. A Mega can just speed tank torpedos by accellerating to max speed as it is now. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3351
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:08:00 -
[1412] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:What if, for the Hyperion, instead of having a bonus to armor repair amount per level, it had a reduction in armor repair cap use per level? Get out!
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3231
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:18:00 -
[1413] - Quote
Another comment about the Dominix: IMHO it would benefit far more from a drone speed bonus than a drone control range bonus. Given a battleship hull, you can already control drones out to ~70-100km through use of those high slots. Given those ridiculous ranges, either the Dominix is intended to use exclusively sentry drones, or to be deploying combat drones to crazy-long distances.
People using Sentry drones already use OTLs, so their sentry drones already have extreme weapon optimal/falloff range and very good tracking. I don't use combat drones in a Dominix simply because the potato of death is so slow. The drones always have to travel to target, so for any use that I have put a Dominix to over the years I would have benefited much more from a Drone Navigation bonus over a tracking bonus.
A tracking bonus on the hull is simply going to lead to AFK Domi mission runners shooting elite frigates with sentry drones whlie those frigates are orbiting at close range.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3231
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:22:00 -
[1414] - Quote
As for the Hyperion, I've often wished that a blaster boat could have a bonus to MWD in the form of cap use reduction and sig bloom reduction. The greatest problem with blaster boats is always getting into range for the purpose of actually firing their awesomely high DPS, ridiculously short range weapons. Reduce their damage bonus to 5%, substitute a sig bloom bonus of -50%. Or perhaps give it a bonus to afterburner speed.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:25:00 -
[1415] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I'm still not sold on the Dominix changes to the bonus. Was there no other options on the table CCP Rise?? It would be nice to see other options, and several have been brought up by players, I can't say that I like this Dominix any better than current or better than the Armageddon.
The new Domi is inferior to the current one. If there were replacement mods for the mids that the OTL use to occupy then the ship might have some merrit. Right now you have a bonus that really adds nothing for close range and could be useful for sniper fits if it also had a control range bonus.
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Throktar
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:29:00 -
[1416] - Quote
Ok folks maybe I am just not seeing it, so please respectfully enlighten me.
Megathron : Losing 50m of drone bandwidth and a high slot for your heavy neut or what ever in exchange for a low slot and a switch to ROF hull bonus. At current lvl 5 skills thats 126 dps from two heavy drones lost. Adding a mag stab in your new 8th low slot adds 121 dps. So that new low looks like it will have to be a mag stab.
So unless I am really off base here (and I will admit if I am wrong), the only thing that changed on the Mega is a lot less ehp, no heavy neut, more ammo, more gun cap, and less drone bandwidth in exchange for 7 ms faster speed and about 8% dps increase due to ROF? Is that good enough? |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:30:00 -
[1417] - Quote
Lee Vanden wrote:CCP, as said many times in this thread already, the active tanking bonus on the Hyperion ensures that it will never be used in fleet engagements because it will pop after the first enemy volley.
You state that you don't want to give up on active armor tanking and that's fine on smaller ships, but active tanking only works in solo and small group PvP engagements. Generally speaking however most people simply don't do small group or solo PvP in battleships, especially armor battleships as they're too slow and cumbersome, so this means that the active armor tanked Hyp is really only ever gonna get used in PvE.
To give it a meaningful PvP role the local rep bonus either needs to be replaced with Local AND Remote Rep or better yet simply do away with it, raise the armor HP and instead give it some help getting into range of its targets like a 10% bonus to AB and MWD speed or a 20% range bonus to stasis webifiers or warp scramblers per level. In doing so you'll solve many of the blaster boats problems and might make the Hyperion a decent choice for fleet PvP.
Well said!
Its like elite restaurant have very tasty *something* with broccoli in menu but most people order stake. They know that broccoli is fine but...but stake more easy and simple... So...why do not make broccoli more popular for fleets (it means more useful in fleets)
The question is - why is hyper still remains the ship for few peoples? If he will get bonus armor rep recived from remotes reps and still have his own bonus to self reps - it is an elegant decision. He will be combat fleet ship with close range, not bad armor tank. And he will be sill solo\small-scale pvp ship for "elite" guys :) Srsly, im better fly myrm for solo - its cost not so high and effectiveness not so bad (and i have more potential targets than hyper because of mobility) |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3352
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:30:00 -
[1418] - Quote
A battleship trying to snipe with sentries is doomed to either lose all the sentries after three snipe spots due to havin to align to warp off cause he is propped down.
-or-
Die in a fire because he was not aligned to warp because he had to stay in range of the sentries to scoop them.
Either way it simply does not work with the current drone mechanics.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
845
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:30:00 -
[1419] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I'm still not sold on the Dominix changes to the bonus. Was there no other options on the table CCP Rise?? It would be nice to see other options, and several have been brought up by players, I can't say that I like this Dominix any better than current or better than the Armageddon. The new Domi is inferior to the current one. If there were replacement mods for the mids that the OTL use to occupy then the ship might have some merrit. Right now you have a bonus that really adds nothing for close range and could be useful for sniper fits if it also had a control range bonus. The tracking buff helps ogres hit cruisers, but it still cannot catch them, dual DNC will help with that. A Control range boost is a must, 25% is a absolute minimum 50% would be the perferd Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3352
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:30:00 -
[1420] - Quote
.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
|
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:34:00 -
[1421] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Winter Archipelago wrote:What if, for the Hyperion, instead of having a bonus to armor repair amount per level, it had a reduction in armor repair cap use per level? Get out!
it would not have to be instead it would have to be added to...
this is how i would make the bonus look like
7.5% to armor repair repair amount, increase in heat amount bonus and reduction in cap activation per level.
that makes the armor rep 37.5% better reduce the cap activation cost of a large armor rep II to 250 and with heat turned on will increase rep amount by 13.75% and reduce activation time by 15%
lets do a mock up:
a hyperion with a laar and a larII with a dcu II a reactive armor hardener and two energy adaptive II with two aux rigs and one nano rig with a off grid legion and the implants =
with 1962 dps tank from the AAR and 1162 dps from the lar II
so thats 3124 dps tank from a costly but awe inspiring hyperion...
if they did that to the rep bonus the bonus would be actually useful! At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:35:00 -
[1422] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Rysis Vyvorant wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I'm still not sold on the Dominix changes to the bonus. Was there no other options on the table CCP Rise?? It would be nice to see other options, and several have been brought up by players, I can't say that I like this Dominix any better than current or better than the Armageddon. The new Domi is inferior to the current one. If there were replacement mods for the mids that the OTL use to occupy then the ship might have some merrit. Right now you have a bonus that really adds nothing for close range and could be useful for sniper fits if it also had a control range bonus. The tracking buff helps ogres hit cruisers, but it still cannot catch them, dual DNC will help with that. A Control range boost is a must, 25% is a absolute minimum 50% would be the perferd
I agree, a 50% drone control range is a must. Add this and then we are looking at a decent drone boat. I would like more drone mods though to help enchance the ship. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3052
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:35:00 -
[1423] - Quote
fukier wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Winter Archipelago wrote:What if, for the Hyperion, instead of having a bonus to armor repair amount per level, it had a reduction in armor repair cap use per level? Get out! it would not have to be instead it would have to be added to... this is how i would make the bonus look like 7.5% to armor repair repair amount, increase in heat amount bonus and reduction in cap activation per level. that makes the armor rep 37.5% better reduce the cap activation cost of a large armor rep II to 250 and with heat turned on will increase rep amount by 13.75% and reduce activation time by 15% lets do a mock up: a hyperion with a laar and a larII with a dcu II a reactive armor hardener and two energy adaptive II with two aux rigs and one nano rig with a off grid legion and the implants = with 1962 dps tank from the AAR and 1162 dps from the lar II so thats 3124 dps tank from a costly but awe inspiring hyperion...
if they did that to the rep bonus the bonus would be actually useful!
Also, broken.
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:37:00 -
[1424] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:As for the Hyperion, I've often wished that a blaster boat could have a bonus to MWD in the form of cap use reduction and sig bloom reduction. The greatest problem with blaster boats is always getting into range for the purpose of actually firing their awesomely high DPS, ridiculously short range weapons. Reduce their damage bonus to 5%, substitute a sig bloom bonus of -50%. Or perhaps give it a bonus to afterburner speed.
kinda pointless for a combat ship that has huge sig radius and is slow like a brick...
now if it was an attack ship... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:38:00 -
[1425] - Quote
Roime wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Rise wrote:After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated. Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18. By design. Drone ships have 1 less slot. This is somewhat justified on double-damage bonused hulls, but not on purely drone-oriented ships. Dominix could now well have it's missing slot back. Another way to fix this would be to extend drone bonus to all drone effects, to actually make the mythical "drone utility" a reality. Halve ECM drone base strength while you are at it. This would also differentiate the Domi and Geddon, one would be a true drone boat, other a nasty ghetto Bhaal. Also, I see no reason to not extend the native drone control range of Domi now to better suit it's sentry drone role.
I defiantly agree, turning the Dominix into a true drone boat with it's bonus affecting utility drones, and/or extending native control range by 50% would be great, and defiantly differentiate from the Geddon. Someone else mentioned Archon vs Thanatos drone bays, buffing the Domi's bay would fit, Gallente are intended to be the leaders in drone warfare aren't they?
With it's current bonus all that's been done is freed up mid slots from omni tracking links, and cut down gun damage. While the Geddon is the new neut Domi.
|
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:38:00 -
[1426] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:fukier wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Winter Archipelago wrote:What if, for the Hyperion, instead of having a bonus to armor repair amount per level, it had a reduction in armor repair cap use per level? Get out! it would not have to be instead it would have to be added to... this is how i would make the bonus look like 7.5% to armor repair repair amount, increase in heat amount bonus and reduction in cap activation per level. that makes the armor rep 37.5% better reduce the cap activation cost of a large armor rep II to 250 and with heat turned on will increase rep amount by 13.75% and reduce activation time by 15% lets do a mock up: a hyperion with a laar and a larII with a dcu II a reactive armor hardener and two energy adaptive II with two aux rigs and one nano rig with a off grid legion and the implants = with 1962 dps tank from the AAR and 1162 dps from the lar II so thats 3124 dps tank from a costly but awe inspiring hyperion...
if they did that to the rep bonus the bonus would be actually useful! Also, broken.
elaborate...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3052
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:46:00 -
[1427] - Quote
fukier wrote: elaborate...
The reason the rep bonus is considered bad is not its stats. It is positively great for active tanking.
The reason is that its analogue (resist bonus) benefits both active and buffer tanks. The active tank bonus should be replaced by something that does the same - not buffed to the point that it is frankly absurd for active tanks. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:52:00 -
[1428] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:fukier wrote: elaborate...
The reason the rep bonus is considered bad is not its stats. It is positively great for active tanking. The reason is that its analogue (resist bonus) benefits both active and buffer tanks. The active tank bonus should be replaced by something that does the same - not buffed to the point that it is frankly absurd for active tanks.
yeah thats already understood...
the easy way to fix it is to allow the bonus to extend to RR...
but ccp said no way jose... which made me a sad sad panda...
so... if not making it a bonus that scales to fleets i would prefer to make the bonus sick for solo-small scale pvp like 15 ships and less...
and i used an extream high setup just to show the potential...
of grid boosting will be nerfed at some point so good by legion
plus the implants are stupid expensive and even with that it only lasts 3 min due to heat damage but it can still be shut off by nuets... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:56:00 -
[1429] - Quote
domi needs a facelift now that all it does is launch drones.. it needs to look more carrier like right not all it looks like is a flying turd |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
275
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:12:00 -
[1430] - Quote
fukier wrote:yeah thats already understood...
the easy way to fix it is to allow the bonus to extend to RR...
but ccp said no way jose... which made me a sad sad panda...
so... if not making it a bonus that scales to fleets i would prefer to make the bonus sick for solo-small scale pvp like 15 ships and less...
and i used an extream high setup just to show the potential...
of grid boosting will be nerfed at some point so good by legion
plus the implants are stupid expensive and even with that it only lasts 3 min due to heat damage but it can still be shut off by nuets... The *current* Hyperion can already tank more than what an Oneiros will make a *current* Abaddon tank.
People see logi ships as OP or at least as formidable force multipliers, yet a armor rep bonus allow the Hyperion to have an integrated personal logi with far more survivability than the logi ship in question. In small gang, this bonus is invaluable, but as logi rep amount don't show on eft, people don't have anything to compare to I guess, and as the bonus is hard to make working and still vulnerable to neutralizers, HATE...
Of course, that bonus don't scale up really well, but I think the Hyperion now have enough to make for this (10% damage bonus, utility high, 7th low slot...) It's sad it had to lose the 8 guns for this, but nevermind.
For the Megathron though, it's really sad ; people really don't have any clue about what we could have had. Such blindness puzzle me. |
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3052
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:14:00 -
[1431] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: For the Megathron though, it's really sad ; people really don't have any clue about what we could have had. Such blindness puzzle me.
Dude, we just got fleet megathrons. No idea what you're complaining about. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:22:00 -
[1432] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:fukier wrote:yeah thats already understood...
the easy way to fix it is to allow the bonus to extend to RR...
but ccp said no way jose... which made me a sad sad panda...
so... if not making it a bonus that scales to fleets i would prefer to make the bonus sick for solo-small scale pvp like 15 ships and less...
and i used an extream high setup just to show the potential...
of grid boosting will be nerfed at some point so good by legion
plus the implants are stupid expensive and even with that it only lasts 3 min due to heat damage but it can still be shut off by nuets... The *current* Hyperion can already tank more than what an Oneiros will make a *current* Abaddon tank. People see logi ships as OP or at least as formidable force multipliers, yet a armor rep bonus allow the Hyperion to have an integrated personal logi with far more survivability than the logi ship in question. In small gang, this bonus is invaluable, but as logi rep amount don't show on eft, people don't have anything to compare to I guess, and as the bonus is hard to make working and still vulnerable to neutralizers, HATE... Of course, that bonus don't scale up really well, but I think the Hyperion now have enough to make for this (10% damage bonus, utility high, 7th low slot...) It's sad it had to lose the 8 guns for this, but nevermind. For the Megathron though, it's really sad ; people really don't have any clue about what we could have had. Such blindness puzzle me.
making the bonus apply to include a reduction in cap will help out a ship thats already tight on cap to start with...
add the bonus to make heat better will add an added level to survivability... remember heat will add 10% as it stands with what i am proposing is making that 13.75% at lev V...
it wont op the bonus... what it will do is make it worth using the bonus...
though i think we are looking at it the wrong way... instead of boosting rr to include the ship bonus... how about we casterate RR and add some stacking penalty...
make RR sig radius affected so that way a capital RR will do hardly any repair to a frig... that way only a bs will get full potential RR from a tech II logi ship... if you are in a smaller ship you have to get smaller kinds of rr...
that way a tech I logi frig will rr a frig better then a tech II logi cruiser... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin Illusion of Solitude
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:38:00 -
[1433] - Quote
I do like the Hyperion. Although the cap use reduction to armor reps would have been nice, and maybe less OP then giving it more drone versatility and more pew pew action. I do like the idea of less turrets and a utility, so in general nice fix. I am considering keeping my Hyperion even more now as my pve boat, and my even fit a blaster beast variation for some pvp fun too.
Mega. YES YES YES that is awesome, Ammo cost is gonna double though :D
Biggest issue is now with the Domi...
What is special about this ship now? (1500+ dps was special... and also very op) seems like nothing much, drone damage and bandwidth capabilities are too close to the new and epically improved Arma. Just because its a space potato doesn't mean it should be neglected. it does have the tracking advantage, which although can be great in comparison to arma at applying the dps from drones. It is definitely not as flashy. Really doesn't need anything to make it OP, just a little something to give it some separation from the Arma. increased drone bay, is a decent suggestion. The tracking bonus most favors sentries (which take many m3's), and sentries have a lot of versatility to capitalize on in that class of drone. It could even get a sweet little armor rep, or even crazier a remote armor rep bonus (either in the form of reduced cap need, or like a 5% boost to local reppers)
Thoughts only thoughts. I have to say the whole ship rebalance has been a lot of fun. |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:41:00 -
[1434] - Quote
to add to the idea of a RR nerf.
small RR will now have a sig radius of 35m
a medium 130m
a large 400m
capital 2500m
so if sig radius is > than target ship sig = a % in reduced affectiveness of RR
so if you have a large RR trying to rep a cruiser then you would take 130(sig radius of a mauler)/400 = 0.325 which means that large RR is now only 32.5% effective...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
275
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:52:00 -
[1435] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Dude, we just got fleet megathrons. No idea what you're complaining about. I'm not complaining, but we did have a fleet ship with the Hyperion in the first iteration, and it was better because of more effective turrets, more alpha and more tank. But because there was a "armor rep bonus" on it, people just discarded it for fleet job as if this was the worse aberration in the universe. But fine : people wanted the Megathron to be an amarrian fleet ship, we got it. I only think it's sad considering we are talking about gallente ships in this thread.
What's funny is that the Dominix have the same problem : people seem to prefer their drone ship as an amarr one, but they want it to be gallente and green. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3053
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:00:00 -
[1436] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Dude, we just got fleet megathrons. No idea what you're complaining about. I'm not complaining, but we did have a fleet ship with the Hyperion in the first iteration, and it was better because of more effective turrets, more alpha and more tank. But because there was a "armor rep bonus" on it, people just discarded it for fleet job as if this was the worse aberration in the universe. But fine : people wanted the Megathron to be an amarrian fleet ship, we got it. I only think it's sad considering we are talking about gallente ships in this thread. What's funny is that the Dominix have the same problem : people seem to prefer their drone ship as an amarr one, but they want it to be gallente and green.
It's not an "Amarrian fleet ship" when Caldari and Minmatar do it better than the Amarr.
Unless you for some reason think only Amarr armor tank? Because before the changes, Caldari and Minmatar could shield tank at the fleet level, but only Amarr could armor tank. This fixed the problem. If the Mega gets the CPU boost it so desperately needs, it will be on the same level as the other three races.
Also, I'd like to point out that iteration 1 of the Hyperion was not really fleet capable, as the ship didn't have a damage bonus competitive with Minmatar to make up for the wasted bonus, and it has always had issues fitting rails. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:03:00 -
[1437] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
It's not an "Amarrian fleet ship" when Caldari and Minmatar do it better than the Amarr. .
hmm what if large beams were not ****?
would this still be true? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7431
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:06:00 -
[1438] - Quote
This iteration of the Hyperion does fine as a fleet ship. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3053
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:06:00 -
[1439] - Quote
fukier wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:
It's not an "Amarrian fleet ship" when Caldari and Minmatar do it better than the Amarr. .
hmm what if large beams were not ****? would this still be true?
No, because the thing the Abaddon does better than the other two current fleet battleships is extreme damge + tracking in a smaller range envelope. Scorch more than makes up for the general shittiness of beams, it is the single best ammo in EVE.
Amarr has its niche, doing one thing better than any other race in fleets. Minmatar and Caldari are just more flexible when it comes to engagements. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3053
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:07:00 -
[1440] - Quote
Andski wrote:This iteration of the Hyperion does fine as a fleet ship.
I agree. He was talking about the previous one. This time it got a PG boost, better damage bonus, and more fitting flexibility.
10% damage bonus with a good slot layout. It is exemplary. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
chris elliot
EG CORP Talocan United
163
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:11:00 -
[1441] - Quote
This new stuff, I like it. :)
On the issue with the dominix that a lot of people are having. What is it exactly? Rise has already said he is looking at something to help sentries out (return speed ect). If that happens wouldn't that make the dominix borderline broken? Sentry drones that can engage at t2 rail ranges and come back to you seems a bit clickfest-ish. But not as useless as I am understanding it to be.
The Hype 2.0 and Mega 2.0 changes I really like on the surface though. Hype gets to be ganky as bawls but does not have the resist bonus the Abbadon and Rohk have. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:14:00 -
[1442] - Quote
I like this. The mega now makes sense as a fleet ship, both the hype and mega can now reasonably fit railguns, the hype is even more effective at active-tanked brawling...the domi still needs drone speed added onto its bonus, though. thhief ghabmoef |
Ranamar
Li3's Electric Cucumber Li3 Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:15:00 -
[1443] - Quote
Here's a funny and terrible idea for people to shoot down:
Make the Hyperion's repair bonus work on remote repairers fitted to its own high slots. I know RR BS gangs went away for a reason (or a lot of reasons) but I think it's an entertaining and quirky idea to contemplate.
(This is a terrible idea which wouldn't actually solve anything that people are complaining about, IMO.) |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:16:00 -
[1444] - Quote
domi too ugly..appearance needs fixing |
fukier
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:17:00 -
[1445] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:fukier wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:
It's not an "Amarrian fleet ship" when Caldari and Minmatar do it better than the Amarr. .
hmm what if large beams were not ****? would this still be true? No, because the thing the Abaddon does better than the other two current fleet battleships is extreme damge + tracking in a smaller range envelope. Scorch more than makes up for the general shittiness of beams, it is the single best ammo in EVE. Amarr has its niche, doing one thing better than any other race in fleets. Minmatar and Caldari are just more flexible when it comes to engagements.
as i said lazors are only good cuss pulse can use scortch...
so what if beams were not ****...
you are comparing two long range turrets to a short range turret that gets an ammo that makes it good at mid range...
mael gets a rate of fire bonus not a fall off... the rokh is good cuss it can use higher damage ammo at a good range... if beams were better then they too would be used.
i think if they just reduced the fittings on large beams and tachs would go a long way...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Janice Endashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 00:22:00 -
[1446] - Quote
chris elliot wrote:
On the issue with the dominix that a lot of people are having. What is it exactly? Rise has already said he is looking at something to help sentries out (return speed ect). If that happens wouldn't that make the dominix borderline broken?
Heh kids these days... I'm guessing you aren't aware that CCP trademarked the word Soon (tm) are yeah? |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3355
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:09:00 -
[1447] - Quote
Janice Endashi wrote:chris elliot wrote:
On the issue with the dominix that a lot of people are having. What is it exactly? Rise has already said he is looking at something to help sentries out (return speed ect). If that happens wouldn't that make the dominix borderline broken?
Heh kids these days... I'm guessing you aren't aware that CCP trademarked the word Soon (tm) are yeah? Give it a bonus that is useful now instead of soon.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2181
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:14:00 -
[1448] - Quote
chris elliot wrote:On the issue with the dominix that a lot of people are having. What is it exactly? Rise has already said he is looking at something to help sentries out (return speed ect). If that happens wouldn't that make the dominix borderline broken? Sentry drones that can engage at t2 rail ranges and come back to you seems a bit clickfest-ish. But not as useless as I am understanding it to be. The problem I, and some others, have with the Dominix right now is that is basically a less flexible and tanky drone battleship when compared to the Armageddon.
The only solid advantage the Domi has over the 'Geddon is in sentry range and tracking... which CAN be used for sniper builds and tactics but realistically won't because snipers need to move and be mobile...which means you will leave your sentry drones behind (which is a bad idea when you only have enough room for 1 or 2 "replacement" sets of sentries).
As far as CCP Rise bringing up the possibility of being able to recall sentry drones like normal ones... I would LIKE it to happen very much and would raise less fuss IF it came true... however it currently isn't reality. And you shouldn't balance ships based on a "possibilities" or "maybes." Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
fukier
908
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:14:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Janice Endashi wrote:chris elliot wrote:
On the issue with the dominix that a lot of people are having. What is it exactly? Rise has already said he is looking at something to help sentries out (return speed ect). If that happens wouldn't that make the dominix borderline broken?
Heh kids these days... I'm guessing you aren't aware that CCP trademarked the word Soon (tm) are yeah? Give it a bonus that is useful now instead of soon.
i disagree...
one thing is to improve drones you have to re-write the entire code... this will take till winter at the earliest... now two races and a pirate faction have dedicated drone ships... sooner or later this code will be updated and then bonuses like rate of fire and tracking problems can be fixed...
in this case i can use the ship for pve and wait till the new code for it to be awesome for pvp. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere
103
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:22:00 -
[1450] - Quote
all these crying gallentee, get ROF bonus on mega now it has 8 lows. really? more damage than the windicator comon.
man up ccp tell this whiners to stuff it. |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
846
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:23:00 -
[1451] - Quote
chris elliot wrote:
On the issue with the dominix that a lot of people are having. What is it exactly? Rise has already said he is looking at something to help sentries out (return speed ect). If that happens wouldn't that make the dominix borderline broken?
Keep in mind fixing sentries will no make the Dominix better, it will make sentries better. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:37:00 -
[1452] - Quote
So from what i am getting. Mega needs CPU, but is good. Hyperion is "good"? And the dominix has no place or point cause the Armageddon now does it better, faster, longer.
And the real failure of the dominix is both the bonuses on the ship a d the failure of drones, specifically their interface and functionality.
So either they redo drones now (wont happen) or they figure out how to make the dominix man up to the neut Domi..Err neut Armageddon.
Basically they gotta give the domi something, some greater drone benefit over the Armageddon. So it either gains some new super drone bonus, or just gets to fly an extra drone.
Domi's a weaker version of the Armageddon.....
Course you do that and people will probably scream bloody murder over the domi extra drone. |
Lenier Chenal
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:41:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:So from what i am getting. Mega needs CPU, but is good. Hyperion is "good"? And the dominix has no place or point cause the Armageddon now does it better, faster, longer.
And the real failure of the dominix is both the bonuses on the ship a d the failure of drones, specifically their interface and functionality.
So either they redo drones now (wont happen) or they figure out how to make the dominix man up to the neut Domi..Err neut Armageddon.
Basically they gotta give the domi something, some greater drone benefit over the Armageddon. So it either gains some new super drone bonus, or just gets to fly an extra drone.
Domi's a weaker version of the Armageddon.....
You're a dumb dumb. Drones are amazing. Your loss. |
Aron Binchiette
The Learning Curve. Noir. Mercenary Group
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:42:00 -
[1454] - Quote
I noticed that Caldari is the only race that had a battleship with EWAR and that got me thinking, how much more effective would a blaster fitted ship be if it were fitted with sensor dampeners, I think that if you gave the Hyperion it 8 guns back but instead of a damage bonus you gave it a bonus to sensor dampeners. This would allow the pilot to force his target to get close to get within the range of the Hyperion's Blasters if he wanted to engage. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Amarrian Expendables
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:51:00 -
[1455] - Quote
Amended Megathron does not look right. It should not and cannot have 8 lows.
It's a slow arsed blaster boat. Why does it not have a falloff bonus?
Slot layout would be better as something like 8-5-6 rather than proposed 7-4-8 and give it falloff and tracking bonus's.
Why not give it the ability to fit prop, scram, web, cap injector and utility med? Let someone try to shield tank it. You have Armor tanking Minmatar ships so why not a shield Gallente?
|
McCreary075
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:54:00 -
[1456] - Quote
CCP Rise - Good work with these second changes.
I've worried about the traditional racial flavors in EvE not being represented. In the past, these haven't been followed exactly, and I don't think they need to be now, so don't think that is what I'm saying.
Gallente ships have traditionally had more flexibility than their Amarr counterparts due to their drone bays and extra mid slots. I'd like to see Gallente ships retain an edge in drones. For example, in the cruiser class if most cruisers can use 5 medium drones and fit just 5 medium drones, the gallente ship should have 75 drone bay to give the gallente pilot extra flexibility in drones. I'm not asking for 10 drones on each ship, just a bit more flexibility in drone deployment choices. In the mid-slot department, having the extra slot gives the gallente pilots a personal flavor for how they fly. Amarr are more fleet oriented, and Gallente ships should be competitive in fleets (see the current hyperion for an example of how not to be competitive), but they should still retain their flexibility.
The Hyperion desperately needed the low slot, and the change to 10% damage per level is not overpowered. The ship has 9 effective turrets instead of 10, and even if the extra low slot is used for a mag stab (which it probably would be), the DPS on the old hyperion wasn't all the awesome when fit for max tank, so I don't think you're breaking anything. The additional low slot will push the dps up a bit, but not to OP levels. The extra drones might be an issue, consider dropping it to 100 bandwidth with 150 bay. The utility high is very important for a small gang or solo role, which a ship with the current repair bonuses is going to spend most of its time. Good work.
The Megathron is the quintessential Gallente ship, and people are very protective of it. In addition, the Megathron's role in EvE, while diminished in recent times, is a close range weapon of destruction, and it does that very well, though with predictable fits. Keeping the role and expanding the range of possible fits is the key. A 7/5/7 layout gives mid-slot flexibility that the Gallente are known for. I'd like to see 6 guns (blasphemy, I know) with a 10% (maybe 7.5%) ROF bonus - giving back the utility high slot. The 8th low slot is very appealing, but I agree with others that it is 'not Gallente' and steps on the toes of the Amarr too much. The extra hitpoints will help survivability, and so will having an extra mid-slot for EWAR or extra tracking. On the drone front, I'm OK with keeping the 75 bandwidth (bumping it to 100 or 125 would solidify my decision to reduce the ROF bonus to 7.5%), but give the Megathron 125 drone bay no matter the bandwidth. I never used 5 heavies, I usually carried a set of 4 heavies and 5 lights, or two sets of medium and a set of lights. With the extra mid-slot, it also gives the Megathron a chance to fit an interesting shield tank, which again, gives the Megathron some flexibility.
Keep the Megathron the Gallente poster-child, but update it to be 'better' which is what you want the BS to be - better. |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:58:00 -
[1457] - Quote
fix the domis ugliness and all will be better |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3053
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 02:48:00 -
[1458] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Amended Megathron does not look right. It should not and cannot have 8 lows.
It's a slow arsed blaster boat. Why does it not have a falloff bonus?
Slot layout would be better as something like 8-5-6 rather than proposed 7-4-8 and give it falloff and tracking bonus's.
Why not give it the ability to fit prop, scram, web, cap injector and utility med? Let someone try to shield tank it. You have Armor tanking Minmatar ships so why not a shield Gallente?
When will people like you realize that the reason gallente bses are hardly flown is they can't match the stats of other races, including minmatar? 8/5/6 makes that problem worse. 7/4/8 makes the mega competitive. Now it can fill roles other than "undock camper". TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
fukier
911
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 03:08:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Amended Megathron does not look right. It should not and cannot have 8 lows.
It's a slow arsed blaster boat. Why does it not have a falloff bonus?
Slot layout would be better as something like 8-5-6 rather than proposed 7-4-8 and give it falloff and tracking bonus's.
Why not give it the ability to fit prop, scram, web, cap injector and utility med? Let someone try to shield tank it. You have Armor tanking Minmatar ships so why not a shield Gallente?
When will people like you realize that the reason gallente bses are hardly flown is they can't match the stats of other races, including minmatar? 8/5/6 makes that problem worse. 7/4/8 makes the mega competitive. Now it can fill roles other than "undock camper".
so if your entire argument is brick mega why not make it a combat ship? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 03:09:00 -
[1460] - Quote
androch wrote:domi too ugly..appearance needs fixing
No way! I love my space boot! |
|
McCreary075
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 03:17:00 -
[1461] - Quote
Zu'ferna wrote:androch wrote:domi too ugly..appearance needs fixing No way! I love my space boot!
The best name for the Dominix I've heard over the years is 'The 'Forehead Fortress'.
I think the designers were watching Futurama when they designed the Dominix way back in the day. http://images.wikia.com/en.futurama/images/e/e4/Dwayne.jpg |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2492
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 05:19:00 -
[1462] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Agility does matter on a BS as does speed. With the built in tracking the TE will help that little bit more and low slot ECCM is still good to have.
The high slot is something we can live without but if you really want it then the hype is probably more to your taste now.
Nanos on armor bs? Speed without acceleration and agility? No, they don't really matter, every ship still runs circles around you.
Both tracking and ECCM would be better in the mids.
Yeah, Hype is much better atm. There is zero reason to choose a Mega over a Proteus, it doesn't do anything that the Proteus wouldn't do better. There used to be - a heavy neut.
This latest version of Mega is a failure. Intention was to make it attack battleship, but it got the slot layout of a fleet ship. Yet it doesn't have the tank for fleets or meaningful hull bonus for them, nor the dps at competitive ranges.
Good slot layouts for an attack battleship:
7+1 / 4 / 7 (right, Mega wasn't broken) 7+1 / 5 / 6 7 / 5 / 7
Bad slot layout for attack battleship:
7 / 4 / 8
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Cari Cullejen
Thukker Tribe Holdings Inc. Gathering Of Nomadic Explorers
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 05:20:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Until you fix armor tanking please leave the megathron alone, I'll never be able to get into another shield fleet again... In love with CCP Sunset, and maybe-áCCP t0rfifrans :3 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3053
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 05:30:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Agility does matter on a BS as does speed. With the built in tracking the TE will help that little bit more and low slot ECCM is still good to have.
The high slot is something we can live without but if you really want it then the hype is probably more to your taste now.
Nanos on armor bs? Speed without acceleration and agility? No, they don't really matter, every ship still runs circles around you. Both tracking and ECCM would be better in the mids. Yeah, Hype is much better atm. There is zero reason to choose a Mega over a Proteus, it doesn't do anything that the Proteus wouldn't do better. There used to be - a heavy neut. This latest version of Mega is a failure. Intention was to make it attack battleship, but it got the slot layout of a fleet ship. Yet it doesn't have the tank for fleets or meaningful hull bonus for them, nor the dps at competitive ranges. Good slot layouts for an attack battleship: 7+1 / 4 / 7 (right, Mega wasn't broken) 7+1 / 5 / 6 7 / 5 / 7 Bad slot layout for attack battleship: 7 / 4 / 8
Actually, with 7 / 4 / 8, the new mega has better DPS at mid ranges than any fleet ship but an Abaddon, competitive mid-long range DPS only eclipsed by the Rokh, and everything necessary to tank like the best of them except a little more CPU. Without that CPU, it can have a tank equal to a Rokh's EHP with an inferior resist profile, or a perfectly balanced resist profile with about 7k EHP less than a Maelstrom.
Give the ship 600 base CPU and it will be an excellent fleet ship. The slot layout is the entire reason it can - with the wasted utility high (yes, wasted), it can't compete.
The thing about utility highs is they only apply to certain kinds of PvP. None of the items you could fit there matter outside about 25km range, except for a cyno, which is not something game breaking. The only fits that use that highslot are the ones fitting neuts for brawling (RRs are a waste in today's game). The thing about brawling megas is they benefit quite a bit from 8 lows - absurd gank or very solid tank become options, whereas before a mega couldn't fit a solid tank, only a decent one.
7 / 5 / 7 makes it a lot harder to justify a mega in a fleet - even if it got its 600 CPU, you're giving up a magstab for a tracking comp. This means it stops competing with the Mael and Abaddon in midrange (DPS plummets) and is just an inferior armor Rokh.
8 / 4 / 7 changes nothing from the current game, and keeps the ship completely unable to compete at all.
This is a good slot layout. The Hyperion gained a utility high to boot - there is still a ship that can blaster brawl with 7 lows, 5 mids and a heavy neut. Except now it has an even bigger tank. Because they chose to put the Hyperion in this role, it becomes a ship that might just be fleet viable as well - because of that massive base armor HP, it doesn't need to stack 2 plates to get to the 120-130k EHP range.
In short, there is still a heavy neuting blaster brawler, and Gallente just gained 2 potential fleet doctrine candidates. This is a win win, don't even try to complain dude. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
314
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 05:32:00 -
[1465] - Quote
Can I bribe you to 'pretend' to have 8 turrets on the model if full 6 turret modules even if they don't do anything >.>?
Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him? |
Terianna Eri
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 05:47:00 -
[1466] - Quote
RIP Shield DPS Dominix. Please leave the Navy Dominix alone. Excited for Hyperion change. Megathron seems like it might be overkill. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2495
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 06:41:00 -
[1467] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Actually, with 7 / 4 / 8, the new mega has better DPS at mid ranges than any fleet ship but an Abaddon, competitive mid-long range DPS only eclipsed by the Rokh, and everything necessary to tank like the best of them except a little more CPU. Without that CPU, it can have a tank equal to a Rokh's EHP with an inferior resist profile, or a perfectly balanced resist profile with about 7k EHP less than a Maelstrom.
Give the ship 600 base CPU and it will be an excellent fleet ship. The slot layout is the entire reason it can - with the wasted utility high (yes, wasted), it can't compete.
Well it fails at it's intended role, which is not large fleets, and even for those it's not the best option. I hope you notice that you are thinking "if it could fit both tank and gank at the same time, then it would be third or fourth best option for LR slugging fleets", when the ship was intended to be fast blaster boat.
Anyway, I guess I just have to accept the fact that the small gang option is now Hype, not really complaining, I like it as much as the Mega.
Funny though how it turned out- the ship intended for fleets ends up a PVE boat with less dps, attack battleship ends up being a rail ship, and the worst BS in EVE currently becomes actually viable active armor tanker instead of just less broken
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2345
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 06:42:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Amended Megathron does not look right. It should not and cannot have 8 lows.
It's a slow arsed blaster boat. Why does it not have a falloff bonus?
Slot layout would be better as something like 8-5-6 rather than proposed 7-4-8 and give it falloff and tracking bonus's.
Why not give it the ability to fit prop, scram, web, cap injector and utility med? Let someone try to shield tank it. You have Armor tanking Minmatar ships so why not a shield Gallente?
Use the extra low slots and fit modules to boost your falloff.
If you want to shield tank a blaster boat with falloff bonuses, fly a Rokh. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 06:56:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Roime wrote: Intention was to make it attack battleship, but it got the slot layout of a fleet ship
I think you are mistaken at this point. Everybody in the thread wanted one gallente BS that can be competetive in fleets, hence the new megathrone. It is also fast and can be used for other things too, which is a bonus. |
Ersahi Kir
Freelance Mining Company
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:05:00 -
[1470] - Quote
I always thought it looked like Johnny Bravo. For important comparative purposes. |
|
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:06:00 -
[1471] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:fukier wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I'm still a sad panda over this. I'm really hoping you leave the Navy Domi alone with the Hybrid + Drone damage bonus.
-Liang
navy domi? Seems there turning the old ships into the new Navy Ships (least the good old ship's). The Domi needs something. I can't quite figure out what the heck its missing, but it is missing something. There has been talk about an updated Dominix model. I'm thinking that would help.. well it would help a ton ( A refresh on the spacepotato, spacecow, rottensneaker, floatingturdmobile would help ). Fitting wise... I guess the question is that no one has really fit out a "Pure" droneboat, and used it to great success. The main question that I can figure is... well what do we do with the highslots, they have no bonus. THe armageddon is getting both a Neut range bonus, plus its high slots can fit any weapon system (getting equal launcher and turret hard points). Yes it is unbonused but it gains flexibility like the Prophecy. I'm fine with that. The Dominix does need something. I believe It needs a bonus to the Microwarp Drive speed of drones. It needs a way to get Heavy Drones moving fast enough to warrant their deployment. The Algos has it as a role bonus. Algos Role bonus: 25% bonus to drone microwarpdrive speed That might do it. It would give the Dominix the option to deploy as a sentry platform, or to muscle its way into 40+ and closer range and use its highslots for rails/blaster mix as well as giving the Heavy Drones more movement they need to deploy out and be effective (Rather than the heavy drones spending 20 to 40 seconds MWD over to the ship to go blow it up. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% and Drone microwarpdrive speed. +10% Drone Damage, Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed That would probably do it. Though I'm not totally sure heavy's even having 25% more mwd speed would be enough for them (for mediums and lights, definetly, but heavies...).
or better yet, instead of mwd speed give drone control range...
|
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:08:00 -
[1472] - Quote
Shingorash wrote:Tennessee Jack wrote:fukier wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Dominix: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I'm still a sad panda over this. I'm really hoping you leave the Navy Domi alone with the Hybrid + Drone damage bonus.
-Liang
navy domi? Seems there turning the old ships into the new Navy Ships (least the good old ship's). The Domi needs something. I can't quite figure out what the heck its missing, but it is missing something. There has been talk about an updated Dominix model. I'm thinking that would help.. well it would help a ton ( A refresh on the spacepotato, spacecow, rottensneaker, floatingturdmobile would help ). Fitting wise... I guess the question is that no one has really fit out a "Pure" droneboat, and used it to great success. The main question that I can figure is... well what do we do with the highslots, they have no bonus. THe armageddon is getting both a Neut range bonus, plus its high slots can fit any weapon system (getting equal launcher and turret hard points). Yes it is unbonused but it gains flexibility like the Prophecy. I'm fine with that. The Dominix does need something. I believe It needs a bonus to the Microwarp Drive speed of drones. It needs a way to get Heavy Drones moving fast enough to warrant their deployment. The Algos has it as a role bonus. Algos Role bonus: 25% bonus to drone microwarpdrive speed That might do it. It would give the Dominix the option to deploy as a sentry platform, or to muscle its way into 40+ and closer range and use its highslots for rails/blaster mix as well as giving the Heavy Drones more movement they need to deploy out and be effective (Rather than the heavy drones spending 20 to 40 seconds MWD over to the ship to go blow it up. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% and Drone microwarpdrive speed. +10% Drone Damage, Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed That would probably do it. Though I'm not totally sure heavy's even having 25% more mwd speed would be enough for them (for mediums and lights, definetly, but heavies...). If only there was battleship sized drone control units...! Yes please :D |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2495
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:20:00 -
[1473] - Quote
Deerin wrote:Roime wrote: Intention was to make it attack battleship, but it got the slot layout of a fleet ship I think you are mistaken at this point. Everybody in the thread wanted one gallente BS that can be competetive in fleets, hence the new megathrone. It is also fast and can be used for other things too, which is a bonus.
Read the OP again, making Mega the fleet ship was clearly not CCP's intention.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2495
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:23:00 -
[1474] - Quote
Domi has a pope hat. http://www.austinrocky.org/photos/08252007/content/bin/images/large/IMG_9264.jpg
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:35:00 -
[1475] - Quote
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:41:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Use the extra low slots and fit modules to boost your falloff.
If you want to shield tank a blaster boat with falloff bonuses, fly a Rokh.
You mean a Deimos, a blaster ship that actually has a falloff bonus?
Falloff bonuses are great for blaster boats and I agree that the Mega should have one instead of the tracking bonus. |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:41:00 -
[1477] - Quote
Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Agility does matter on a BS as does speed. With the built in tracking the TE will help that little bit more and low slot ECCM is still good to have.
The high slot is something we can live without but if you really want it then the hype is probably more to your taste now.
Nanos on armor bs? Speed without acceleration and agility? No, they don't really matter, every ship still runs circles around you. Both tracking and ECCM would be better in the mids. Yeah, Hype is much better atm. There is zero reason to choose a Mega over a Proteus, it doesn't do anything that the Proteus wouldn't do better. There used to be - a heavy neut. This latest version of Mega is a failure. Intention was to make it attack battleship, but it got the slot layout of a fleet ship. Yet it doesn't have the tank for fleets or meaningful hull bonus for them, nor the dps at competitive ranges. Good slot layouts for an attack battleship: 7+1 / 4 / 7 (right, Mega wasn't broken) 7+1 / 5 / 6 7 / 5 / 7 Bad slot layout for attack battleship: 7 / 4 / 8
Let me say clear.
7-4-8 layouts give you pretty good tank+dps+speed+range. If i want use mega in massive fleet fight i will put MWD, MJD, TC and cap boos in mid, 2 plates, 2 eanm, 1 dc, 1-2 magstab and 1-2 TE (if my fleet dont need MJD i will fit 2 TC and 1 TE and will have optimal+fallow MORE than rokh has even with 2 TE). This mega will have ~1km\s with MWD on, 700-800 dps at 0-30km and half of that at 30-60km. With blasters. I also could use rails (with 1 co-op in 1 low slot, becuase it 8 now).
Please leave this days where few people fly solo\small-scale pvp with mega. Now hyper will dothat role much better (7-5-7+175 dronebay+active armor tank). I see a lot of opportunity with new Mega in fleet fights. |
49125
Haemus Frigidus
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:42:00 -
[1478] - Quote
Please do something more for the Domi (beyond PG). You're pushing it into a specialization that it is already capable of providing. Not only that, but with the range increase on every sentry type why would anyone need to bother with speed bonused scouts (as one of the few relevant sniper mids)? The enemy would either be sentry-able, or in scout range with bonused tracking. If they leave that range, recall and drop sentries.
Just not seeing it. ?
. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3054
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:51:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Agility does matter on a BS as does speed. With the built in tracking the TE will help that little bit more and low slot ECCM is still good to have.
The high slot is something we can live without but if you really want it then the hype is probably more to your taste now.
Nanos on armor bs? Speed without acceleration and agility? No, they don't really matter, every ship still runs circles around you. Both tracking and ECCM would be better in the mids. Yeah, Hype is much better atm. There is zero reason to choose a Mega over a Proteus, it doesn't do anything that the Proteus wouldn't do better. There used to be - a heavy neut. This latest version of Mega is a failure. Intention was to make it attack battleship, but it got the slot layout of a fleet ship. Yet it doesn't have the tank for fleets or meaningful hull bonus for them, nor the dps at competitive ranges. Good slot layouts for an attack battleship: 7+1 / 4 / 7 (right, Mega wasn't broken) 7+1 / 5 / 6 7 / 5 / 7 Bad slot layout for attack battleship: 7 / 4 / 8 Let me say clear. 7-4-8 layouts give you pretty good tank+dps+speed+range. If i want use mega in massive fleet fight i will put MWD, MJD, TC and cap boos in mid, 2 plates, 2 eanm, 1 dc, 1-2 magstab and 1-2 TE (if my fleet dont need MJD i will fit 2 TC and 1 TE and will have optimal+fallow MORE than rokh has even with 2 TE). This mega will have ~1km\s with MWD on, 700-800 dps at 0-30km and half of that at 30-60km. With blasters. I also could use rails (with 1 co-op in 1 low slot, becuase it 8 now). Please leave this days where few people fly solo\small-scale pvp with mega. Now hyper will dothat role much better (7-5-7+175 dronebay+active armor tank). I see a lot of opportunity with new Mega in fleet fights.
Blasters dont work in fleets, i explain why in detail on page 25. That said, rail mega does 600 dps from guns at 40km, and can hit to 140km TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:51:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Where is my single-repped kiting mega? There it is! \o/
Leave those 8 lows! I want to slap a MWD on and show some people how you can kite in a active-armor-tanked battleship once there is a nano and an overdrive fitted! Though I'd willingly neglect one of the turret highs for yet another mid, needs two webs :P |
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3054
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 07:58:00 -
[1481] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Where is my single-repped kiting mega? There it is! \o/
Leave those 8 lows! I want to slap a MWD on and show some people how you can kite in a active-armor-tanked battleship once there is a nano and an overdrive fitted! Though I'd willingly neglect one of the turret highs for yet another mid, needs two webs :P
I see the words kite, nano, battleship and web describing the same ship, with blasters implied. Can i have your dealer's name? TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:00:00 -
[1482] - Quote
zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys
all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking... |
Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:23:00 -
[1483] - Quote
The Hyperion is slightly better... For mission running.
The rest of it looks rather bad honestly. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3054
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:26:00 -
[1484] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:The Hyperion is slightly better... For mission running.The rest of it looks rather bad honestly.
Freed CPU / PG from less turrets, minimal base DPS lost, and an extra low.
It is better in pretty much every single application. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:32:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Where is my single-repped kiting mega? There it is! \o/
Leave those 8 lows! I want to slap a MWD on and show some people how you can kite in a active-armor-tanked battleship once there is a nano and an overdrive fitted! Though I'd willingly neglect one of the turret highs for yet another mid, needs two webs :P I see the words kite, nano, battleship and web describing the same ship, with blasters implied. Can i have your dealer's name?
Don't need special drugs. Besides Exile.
Anyways, if it makes 2km/s, has a long point, large blasters with Null and a web, I'll use it to kite >:) |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3055
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:39:00 -
[1486] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Where is my single-repped kiting mega? There it is! \o/
Leave those 8 lows! I want to slap a MWD on and show some people how you can kite in a active-armor-tanked battleship once there is a nano and an overdrive fitted! Though I'd willingly neglect one of the turret highs for yet another mid, needs two webs :P I see the words kite, nano, battleship and web describing the same ship, with blasters implied. Can i have your dealer's name? Don't need special drugs. Besides Exile. Anyways, if it makes 2km/s, has a long point, large blasters with Null and a web, I'll use it to kite >:)
Here's the problem.
Everything in the game you can outrun performs better than you at longer ranges. Nano and overdrive a battleship all you want, a BC will either outrun or outtank you if you do outrun it, because oh god your ship would be badly fit to outrun a BC.
You're using blasters, meaning you only have an advantage in DPS within about 15 km. Outside that you're taking more than you're dealing against anything. Nothing has shorter range than blasters, and only an idiot won't have null in his hold.
Your tank or DPS is going to be gimped if you're using so many lows / rigs to maintain 2km/s without overheating. If that's your overheat speed, it won't last for a fraction of a BS brawl.
If you're using a long point, a neut can reach you. If a neut can reach you, your active tank (meaning your EHP is **** and you might get freaking volleyed by artillery in a battleship) has a really hard counter that is not even rare.
If you're using webs, you're either within 10km (and thus your MWD is worthless) or you're using faction webs sitting at 14km (still almost useless except you make for a shiny killmail).
To sum it up - blaster ships, regardless of ammo type, only hold the advantage very close to their targets. Everywhere else they are at a severe disadvantage. And you want to try to kite in one, yet you want to use webs to do so, implying a really, really tight kite that any blaster ship will be hitting you at with short range ammo. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:43:00 -
[1487] - Quote
love the fact that domi is now a drone platform, now please remodel it so it looks less ugly, there is nothing on this ship that looks like it would deploy any kind of drone (no visible hangar like other ships liek the algos, the arbitrator, hell even the mega has a drone bay visible) if not that little concession then just scrap the whole thing and make it look more carrier like |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
275
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:45:00 -
[1488] - Quote
Deerin wrote:Roime wrote: Intention was to make it attack battleship, but it got the slot layout of a fleet ship I think you are mistaken at this point. Everybody in the thread wanted one gallente BS that can be competetive in fleets, hence the new megathrone. It is also fast and can be used for other things too, which is a bonus. Yes, everybody want a bad amarr/caldari basterd instead of of something gallente with a reason to exists. That's the problem some of us have with this version.
Akirei Scytale wrote:Actually, with 7 / 4 / 8, the new mega has better DPS at mid ranges than any fleet ship but an Abaddon, competitive mid-long range DPS only eclipsed by the Rokh, and everything necessary to tank like the best of them except a little more CPU. Without that CPU, it can have a tank equal to a Rokh's EHP with an inferior resist profile, or a perfectly balanced resist profile with about 7k EHP less than a Maelstrom. That's exactly this ! This Megathron is a worse Abaddon, a worse Rokh or a worse Maelstrom, pick you choice. What is the interest already ? Oh yeah, nullsec nerds can pick a second choice ship to follow the real fleet ships. What does this ship can do another ship can't ? Amarr & caldari ships are better fleet ships, and minmatar ships are better attack ships, because this thing is now a basterds of all these.
7+1/5/6 Mega would have been a Tempest with blasters : undisputed king of close range skirmish, with option to shield or armor, leaving the Tempest with cap warfare and more range. And its brother the 8/4/7 Hyperion would have been like this new Megathron, but with more firepower.
But whatever, all hail to the new Hyperion which does almost everything better than before, packing both the Hyperion and Megathron in one hull. Everyone is happy now I guess. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
464
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:48:00 -
[1489] - Quote
Re: 7+1/5/6 LOL, a tempest with blasters, with less range and neuting power and agility than a tempest, and less turret dps and speed than a talos.... "What is the interest already ? Oh yeah, solowanna-be nerds can pick a second choice ship to follow the skirmish ships. What does this ship can do another ship can't ?"
Yeah.... Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3055
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:50:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Actually, with 7 / 4 / 8, the new mega has better DPS at mid ranges than any fleet ship but an Abaddon, competitive mid-long range DPS only eclipsed by the Rokh, and everything necessary to tank like the best of them except a little more CPU. Without that CPU, it can have a tank equal to a Rokh's EHP with an inferior resist profile, or a perfectly balanced resist profile with about 7k EHP less than a Maelstrom. That's exactly this ! This Megathron is a worse Abaddon, a worse Rokh or a worse Maelstrom, pick you choice. What is the interest already ? Oh yeah, nullsec nerds can pick a second choice ship to follow the real fleet ships. What does this ship can do another ship can't ? Amarr & caldari ships are better fleet ships, and minmatar ships are better attack ships, because this thing is now a basterds of all these. 7+1/5/6 Mega would have been a Tempest with blasters : undisputed king of close range skirmish, with option to shield or armor, leaving the Tempest with cap warfare and more range. And its brother the 8/4/7 Hyperion would have been like this new Megathron, but with more firepower. But whatever, all hail to the new Hyperion which does almost everything better than before, packing both the Hyperion and Megathron in one hull. Everyone is happy now I guess.
How do you not understand my post?!?
What that says, in very clear language, is that the fleet megathron outDPSes everything but the Abaddon at medium range, without the glaring flaw of only being able to shoot to 60km. In fact it can shoot out as far as a Rokh, doing less damage only at the extreme ranges.
In other words, it is an armor Rokh that outperforms it in mid range and is outperformed at extreme range. Better DPS and better tracking in the most common fleet engagement ranges.
The only flaw it has right now is it can't fit a full set of hardeners, so its EHP is slightly below average unless its CPU is fixed. 119k EHP is pretty much a Maelstrom. Except it does more damage. At every range. And is faster. All it lacks is the Mael's alpha, but it has much better tracking, meaning it doesn't need Huginns in every fleet. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:50:00 -
[1491] - Quote
Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking...
yes because a 50% bonus to ogre's optimal is gonna make so much of a diffrence |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:55:00 -
[1492] - Quote
zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking... yes because a 50% bonus to ogre's optimal is gonna make so much of a diffrence
but it is a buff...
wether or not its preferrable is another matter...
me, personally far prefer the optimal range then mwd... |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
464
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:02:00 -
[1493] - Quote
MWD speed should be combined into the same tracking and optimal range bonus tbh. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:05:00 -
[1494] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:MWD speed should be combined into the same tracking and optimal range bonus tbh.
That will work too :D but rather then that I'd like control range added... ( I WANT MY GUNS!! :D ) |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:06:00 -
[1495] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: Blasters dont work in fleets, i explain why in detail on page 25. That said, rail mega does 600 dps from guns at 40km, and can hit to 140km
They work pretty ok. If i remember correct PL use blasters rokh with STB. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2499
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:14:00 -
[1496] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Gal'o Sengen wrote:The Hyperion is slightly better... For mission running.The rest of it looks rather bad honestly. Freed CPU / PG from less turrets, minimal base DPS lost, and an extra low. It is better in pretty much every single application.
This, the Hyperion finally looks viable. Triple-rep crazy tank, dual rep, single rep with plate all seem to be worth trying.
For mission running Garde Domi is the new king. Nothing comes close to that tracking and dps at 40-60km.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:29:00 -
[1497] - Quote
Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking... yes because a 50% bonus to ogre's optimal is gonna make so much of a diffrence but it is a buff... wether or not its preferrable is another matter... me, personally far prefer the optimal range then mwd...
well sir, you are entitled to your opinion, but first if they use optimal instead of speed non sentry drones will still orbit at the same range so it will make no difference. second bouncer II's will hit at the domi's 96-110k(not looking it up) depending on skill lock range, so no difference. third they are nerfing guns on the domi so why would you want to have optimal instead of speed? when you can put drone link augmenters in the highs and still hit at 100k with bouncer II's or warden II's rather than sacrificing a mid slot for drone navigation computers if you want anything but warriors to be able to hit those kite fit ships?
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
465
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:32:00 -
[1498] - Quote
Hyperion: PROBLEM, OFFICER? Megathon: Needs a little more CPU Dominix: Needs tweaking, (+mwd bonus, or +mid slot or +highslot and powergrid) and changes to sentry drone behaviour Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
275
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:36:00 -
[1499] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:How do you not understand my post?!?
What that says, in very clear language, is that the fleet megathron outDPSes everything but the Abaddon at medium range, without the glaring flaw of only being able to shoot to 60km. In fact it can shoot out as far as a Rokh, doing less damage only at the extreme ranges.
In other words, it is an armor Rokh that outperforms it in mid range and is outperformed at extreme range. Better DPS and better tracking in the most common fleet engagement ranges.
The only flaw it has right now is it can't fit a full set of hardeners, so its EHP is slightly below average unless its CPU is fixed. 117k EHP is pretty much a Maelstrom. Low, but not nearly as bad as what it had before. It can do 130k EHP (a Rokh), but then has 60%ish therm and kin resists. Except it does more damage than a Mael. At every range. And is faster. All it lacks is the Mael's alpha, but it has much better tracking, meaning it doesn't need Huginns in every fleet. I should have been clearer : this Mega is a worse *beam* Abaddon, only having more cap life against it. Performance wise, you will have comparable dps up to 70km, and start to be better until you reach your max sensor range at 90km... or forget about better cap life. Of course your resists, ehp and tracking will be worse.
But maybe you prefer to be a worse Rokh ? Here, your advantage goes only up to 50km, then the Rokh is better in every way.
And of course the point of the Mael is alpha, so unless you plan to fit arties on your Megathron, the comparison is pointless.
I made the test with 3MFS current Megathron, which have more firepower than a 2MFS future Megathron you use for your tests. Of course, you can stack a 3rd MFS on the future one, but forget about resists&ehp. |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:42:00 -
[1500] - Quote
zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking... yes because a 50% bonus to ogre's optimal is gonna make so much of a diffrence There is also a 50% bonus to drones (ogre's too) MWD speed. It makes a big difference. Now Ogres can be quite useful at 20km or even 30km. |
|
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:46:00 -
[1501] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking... yes because a 50% bonus to ogre's optimal is gonna make so much of a diffrence There is also a 50% bonus to drones (ogre's too) MWD speed. It makes a big difference. Now Ogres can be quite useful at 20km or even 30km.
where do you see this because that is exactly the change that I am proposing in my original post.............. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:47:00 -
[1502] - Quote
zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking... yes because a 50% bonus to ogre's optimal is gonna make so much of a diffrence but it is a buff... wether or not its preferrable is another matter... me, personally far prefer the optimal range then mwd... well sir, you are entitled to your opinion, but first if they use optimal instead of speed non sentry drones will still orbit at the same range so it will make no difference. second bouncer II's will hit at the domi's 96-110k(not looking it up) depending on skill lock range, so no difference. third they are nerfing guns on the domi so why would you want to have optimal instead of speed? when you can put drone link augmenters in the highs and still hit at 100k with bouncer II's or warden II's rather than sacrificing a mid slot for drone navigation computers if you want anything but warriors to be able to hit those kite fit ships?
I am a pure high sec mission runner... the times when I use non sentrys are few and far between.... Also, yes they are removing the gun bonus... that said guns will still provide damage... even if it is way low :P
|
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:49:00 -
[1503] - Quote
[/quote]
I am a pure high sec mission runner... the times when I use non sentrys are few and far between.... Also, yes they are removing the gun bonus... that said guns will still provide damage... even if it is way low :P [/quote]
I rest my case |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:51:00 -
[1504] - Quote
lets just hope they dont change the navy dom for a while, I'd miss the 1400 damage :P |
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:57:00 -
[1505] - Quote
Moretic wrote:lets just hope they dont change the navy dom for a while, I'd miss the 1400 damage :P
u mission in a navy domi, while in a faction warfare corp? omg yes. Ill be running a locator :) |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 09:59:00 -
[1506] - Quote
zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:lets just hope they dont change the navy dom for a while, I'd miss the 1400 damage :P u mission in a navy domi, while in a faction warfare corp? omg yes. Ill be running a locator :)
npc corp and no faction warfare for me... :D |
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:01:00 -
[1507] - Quote
Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:lets just hope they dont change the navy dom for a while, I'd miss the 1400 damage :P u mission in a navy domi, while in a faction warfare corp? omg yes. Ill be running a locator :) npc corp and no faction warfare for me... :D
well be careful with ur shield tank navy domi |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:05:00 -
[1508] - Quote
zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:lets just hope they dont change the navy dom for a while, I'd miss the 1400 damage :P u mission in a navy domi, while in a faction warfare corp? omg yes. Ill be running a locator :) npc corp and no faction warfare for me... :D well be careful with ur shield tank navy domi
Looking into EFT it seems I might leave my navy a while, go LAR domi and test that out... appears I can get to around 1100 dps with a fairly stable mission tank for lvl 4's |
zerquse
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:28:00 -
[1509] - Quote
Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:lets just hope they dont change the navy dom for a while, I'd miss the 1400 damage :P u mission in a navy domi, while in a faction warfare corp? omg yes. Ill be running a locator :) npc corp and no faction warfare for me... :D well be careful with ur shield tank navy domi Looking into EFT it seems I might leave my navy a while, go LAR domi and test that out... appears I can get to around 1100 dps with a fairly stable mission tank for lvl 4's just a shame the guns will be more or less useless :P and no need to crosstrain yet on this new char :D defently a +
If you would like a proper mission fit, convo me ingame |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3057
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:31:00 -
[1510] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: I should have been clearer : this Mega is a worse *beam* Abaddon, only having more cap life against it. Performance wise, you will have comparable dps up to 70km, and start to be better until you reach your max sensor range at 90km... or forget about better cap life. Of course your resists, ehp and tracking will be worse.
But maybe you prefer to be a worse Rokh ? Here, your advantage goes only up to 50km, then the Rokh is better in every way.
And of course the point of the Mael is alpha, so unless you plan to fit arties on your Megathron, the comparison is pointless.
I made the test with 3MFS current Megathron, which have more firepower than a 2MFS future Megathron you use for your tests. Of course, you can stack a 3rd MFS on the future one, but forget about resists&ehp.
The Mega fit I'm comparing it to has a max sensor range of 145km. It does 630 DPS at 40 km. Its tracking is one hell of a lot better than a beam Abaddon.
And putting 3 magstabs on a current mega means your EHP is crap.
Here's what I'm using so you stop talking out of your rear. And bear in mind any Abaddon fit you compare with it that is supposed to work in a fleet needs to have a similar or bigger buffer.
Also, comparing to a modern Rokh, that Mega has better DPS up to about 80-90km. The vast majority of fleet fights take place around 40-70km. Hell, Alpha Maels can barely tickle you past 75km, and also operate best near 40km (doing less DPS). TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:34:00 -
[1511] - Quote
zerquse wrote:Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:zerquse wrote:Moretic wrote:zerquse wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
I think this would be better: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
so all drones get a buff, not just sentrys all drones DO get a buff with optimal and tracking... yes because a 50% bonus to ogre's optimal is gonna make so much of a diffrence There is also a 50% bonus to drones (ogre's too) MWD speed. It makes a big difference. Now Ogres can be quite useful at 20km or even 30km. where do you see this because that is exactly the change that I am proposing in my original post.............. Meh disregard my post. Too much work and didn't pay attention.
Still having the option to use drone navigation computers (because the omnis are integrated in the ship bonus) is viable. One drone navigation computer is good enough. |
MystLynx
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:35:00 -
[1512] - Quote
Me gusta! |
Luke Hammarskjold
Seventh Heaven's Retinue Dominatus Atrum Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:47:00 -
[1513] - Quote
You should make a pole for people to vote. Do they like the dominix changes, do they like the mega changes and so on, on this forum. Its quite easy and you get very effective results. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 10:58:00 -
[1514] - Quote
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:You should make a pole for people to vote. Do they like the dominix changes, do they like the mega changes and so on, on this forum. Its quite easy and you get very effective results.
but you would only get results from those reading this thread which is not good since we are a very SMALL part of the EVE universe... |
Jadiss
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:11:00 -
[1515] - Quote
Is there no way to keep the Hyperions 8 turret? |
CMD Ishikawa
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:16:00 -
[1516] - Quote
Good changes for Hyperion will be used more now.
Would be good to now changes coming to drones and sentries to see if the tweaks in he Dominix are the right ones, looking good so far.
Please please do someting about Dominix's hull it really need some refreshing. |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:17:00 -
[1517] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Where is my single-repped kiting mega? There it is! \o/
Leave those 8 lows! I want to slap a MWD on and show some people how you can kite in a active-armor-tanked battleship once there is a nano and an overdrive fitted! Though I'd willingly neglect one of the turret highs for yet another mid, needs two webs :P I see the words kite, nano, battleship and web describing the same ship, with blasters implied. Can i have your dealer's name? Don't need special drugs. Besides Exile. Anyways, if it makes 2km/s, has a long point, large blasters with Null and a web, I'll use it to kite >:) Here's the problem. Everything in the game you can outrun performs better than you at longer ranges. Nano and overdrive a battleship all you want, a BC will either outrun or outtank you if you do outrun it, because oh god your ship would be badly fit to outrun a BC. You're using blasters, meaning you only have an advantage in DPS within about 15 km. Outside that you're taking more than you're dealing against anything. Nothing has shorter range than blasters, and only an idiot won't have null in his hold. Your tank or DPS is going to be gimped if you're using so many lows / rigs to maintain 2km/s without overheating. If that's your overheat speed, it won't last for a fraction of a BS brawl. If you're using a long point, a neut can reach you. If a neut can reach you, your active tank (meaning your EHP is **** and you might get freaking volleyed by artillery in a battleship) has a really hard counter that is not even rare. If you're using webs, you're either within 10km (and thus your MWD is worthless) or you're using faction webs sitting at 14km (still almost useless except you make for a shiny killmail). To sum it up - blaster ships, regardless of ammo type, only hold the advantage very close to their targets. Everywhere else they are at a severe disadvantage. And you want to try to kite in one, yet you want to use webs to do so, implying a really, really tight kite that any blaster ship will be hitting you at with short range ammo.
There is so much... situational stuff you're prior to looking at the fit, just black out. Ships are more than just numbers, and going with static opinions to fits only leads to the armortalos. Just fly more, use less eft. |
Julia Audaris
Polish Immortals
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:19:00 -
[1518] - Quote
I'm a new Gallente player and I don't really understand what's up with the drone boat changes. I won't deal with PvP because I've very limited experience, but in terms of PvE all this stuff doesn't really add up.
Dominix was pretty versatile with the hybrid bonus, now it's supposed to be a sentry sniper due to range bonus. What weapons are we supposed to put on it? AutoCannons seem to be the obvious choice... but that doesn't really make sense, because it doesn't go along well with the increased range on the drones. What's it supposed to do, go all AC+Garde at 60-70km? AC are not Gallente, and besides that feels extremely limited given the fact you had oh-so-many fitting options at that range before. Long range? A few rails + Wardens seems ok-ish, but then again why hybrids if all they do is strain your cap? Something's missing with this new design and I fear it's going to end up being the weakest drone boat instead of being the most unique and damaging one.
What's more, if you were a Gallente drone user, you had the advantage of making the easy switch to the Rattlesnake later on. What's the point now if Armageddon has 5 new launchers and the same drone bonuses, so it basically outperforms the Rattlesnake in its own game, ie. missiles+long-range drones? That ship is probably going to become obsolete, because from a Gallente perspective going Amarr/missiles is much easier than going Caldari/shields/missiles. The only thing Rattlesnake will have going for it (aside from the shield tank) will be the torpedo range bonus, but I think most Rattlesnake players stick to cruise missiles and plink away at distant targets anyway. Was it really necessary to indirectly nerf such an expensive ship?
Also, what's the deal with making non-racial guns the optimal pick on Amarr and Gallente ships? I mean close range Dominix and Armageddon will be all about AC and it's not like those guns weren't getting enough use before. All in all I should probably be happy about being able to switch between armor and shield setups which do more or less the same thing (Rattlesnake/Armageddon), but in all honesty I'm not because it just feels wrong for Amarr players to have it so easy. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:30:00 -
[1519] - Quote
Jadiss wrote:Is there no way to keep the Hyperions 8 turret? You don't want the 8 turrets. The fewer turrets you have, the less ammo you use, and the less cap you need. The latter being VERY important on the Hyperion which is a cap sink. The former being very important in long fights, or in extended use in things like Incursions.
I would much rather save the isk, and the cap, and have 6 guns.. The model can be re-worked the next time they go over it. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:34:00 -
[1520] - Quote
Julia Audaris wrote:What's more, if you were a Gallente drone user, you had the advantage of making the easy switch to the Rattlesnake later on. What's the point now if Armageddon has 5 new launchers and the same drone bonuses, so it basically outperforms the Rattlesnake in its own game, ie. missiles+long-range drones? That ship is probably going to become obsolete, because from a Gallente perspective going Amarr/missiles is much easier than going Caldari/shields/missiles. The only thing Rattlesnake will have going for it (aside from the shield tank) will be the torpedo range bonus, but I think most Rattlesnake players stick to cruise missiles and plink away at distant targets anyway. Was it really necessary to indirectly nerf such an expensive ship? Riiight.. Anyway the reason people use a Rattle isn't because of the launchers, and it's not really because of the drones, it's because it's passive shield tank is a BEAST. It can fit Massive EHP and get a Massive Passive Recharge. The weapon systems are all but an after thought.. So no, the Amarr BS might be fun for the very new player, but when you get serious you'll go back to the one that can passive tank any mission, is immune to neuts, and still does reasonable damage. |
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
275
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:56:00 -
[1521] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:The Mega fit I'm comparing it to has a max sensor range of 145km. It does 630 DPS at 40 km. Here's what I'm using so you stop talking out of your rear. And bear in mind any Abaddon fit you compare with it that is supposed to work in a fleet needs to have a similar or bigger buffer. There is a reason no one uses beam abaddons - they can't fit a respectable tank at all. Also, comparing to a modern Rokh, that Mega has better DPS up to about 80-90km. The vast majority of fleet fights take place around 40-70km. Hell, Alpha Maels can barely tickle you past 75km, and also operate best near 40km (doing less DPS). Here a Hellcat with beams : [Abaddon, BeamHellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
The only drawback of this ship is capacitor. 712dps@40km ; 594dps@60km. If capacitor is too low for your taste, replace a TC with med cap booster, and have the same performances than your Megathron (650dps@43km) : dps advantage of the Megathron is marginal (<20) between 50 and 70km after what the beam abaddon fall. Remove a trimark for whatever you could need (ionic field projector for example), and still have 129kehp.
My apologizes for the Rokh, I thought it had 3MFS. Even though, Rokh should have more dps at 75km than a Megathron. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
851
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:58:00 -
[1522] - Quote
Did we scare you off CCP Rise?
Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
275
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 12:05:00 -
[1523] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Re: 7+1/5/6 LOL, a tempest with blasters, with less range and neuting power and agility than a tempest, and less turret dps and speed than a talos.... "What is the interest already ? Oh yeah, solowanna-be nerds can pick a second choice ship to follow the skirmish ships. What does this ship can do another ship can't ?" Obviously, three times the ehp of a Talos and being still faster than CBC is of no interest...
And even compared to the Tempest, this Mega would have had something (dps, or the same role a Vexor have next to a Rupture), as opposed to this new one which have 8 low slots only to be marginaly worse than anything it would try to mimic.
Well, this Megathron is not that bad, but 8/5/6 or 7/5/7 would have been immensely better for an attack ship. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 12:28:00 -
[1524] - Quote
Megathron:
With the Hyperion moving to more of a combat/utility ship via its drones, heavy mid-slot allocation, and spare high, we felt the mega could now afford to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat. Instead of the former 8/5/6 utility focused set up, we now have a 7/4/8 hybrid damage machine that has sacrificed its utility high (which was often unused) to gain another low - giving it more access to damage, damage application/projection, or tank. It stays in its attack role and therefor retains the previously described increases to speed and agility. This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Mega: the death of a ship You have the perfect kill-cruisers, but against a Maelstrom is (as usual) useless. They drop 1 High and add 1 Low. Cap changes will be useless if you fit a MWD. At least will be faster for kiting (railguns maybe? Optimal of blasters sucks). Less drones. So, you hit a BS (Maels) that needs less speed but have better effective damage for the falloff of Projectile against Hybrid. Ah! And both are attack role -¼-¼ Nah, I will start thinking in a Mega with Railguns / AB / 2 Tracking Enhancer's. Maybe 3 if you fit blasters.
BTW... -í-í-íCCP!!! -íFIX THE HYBRIDS! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 12:32:00 -
[1525] - Quote
seems like the navy brutix will kill off the new mega before it has started :( 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2504
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 12:36:00 -
[1526] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Did we scare you off CCP Rise?
Nope, but there's only 3 guys left at CCP working on EVE, Rise, Ytterbium and Fozzie so they are currently handling some serverside issues and replying to petitions.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
kyrieee
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 12:49:00 -
[1527] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:seems like the navy brutix will kill off the new mega before it has started :(
Seems like you don't know what you're talking about. |
Jadiss
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 13:00:00 -
[1528] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote:Jadiss wrote:Is there no way to keep the Hyperions 8 turret? You don't want the 8 turrets. The fewer turrets you have, the less ammo you use, and the less cap you need. The latter being VERY important on the Hyperion which is a cap sink. The former being very important in long fights, or in extended use in things like Incursions. I would much rather save the isk, and the cap, and have 6 guns.. The model can be re-worked the next time they go over it.
True with the cap, but it could be compensated with adjusting the ships base capacitor size/ recharge . And its easier than remodelling the ship .
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Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 13:07:00 -
[1529] - Quote
Jadiss wrote:True with the cap, but it could be compensated with adjusting the ships base capacitor size/ recharge . And its easier than remodelling the ship .
No, there's no way to compensate for it. You can fix it for some ammos, but unless they want to do a massive boost to cap Antimatter and the like will still drain her dry.
Or they can leave the model as it is.. Myrm anyone ? Hell even the new Destroyers like the Corax have 8 hardpoints on the model, but only use 7.
Aesthetics are secondary to the ships performance.. after the first few times you play with the ship you'll be zoomed out so much you won't even notice it. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 13:09:00 -
[1530] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.
In short I'm not entirely convinced on either because there is no 8 weapon slot BS now you could adjust the mega to be the new 8 weapon slot boat but IMO this slot would have to be a low giving it a layout of:
Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 7L; 8 turrets (+1) , 0 launchers(-2)
And adjust drone stats to:
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 50(-75)
These changes I would feel make it to quote yourself
CCP Rise wrote: to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat.
even with a Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: of 7.5% to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire and Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed adjusting capacitor recharge and ships powergrid to compensate for the extra turret and ROF bonus.
and as for the Hyperion:
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers
Are you realy going to give the hyperion the launcher after orignialy wanting to remove the launcher points from the mega when it has gratley been admitted in the thread that 7 turrets and a neut or nos was used with the mega, I'm not saying take the 7th slot away just the launcher hardpoint.
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank?
NO just because you think It is does not make it so some people think pluging that explosive hole is important.
|
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Tennessee Jack
Blac-x
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 13:12:00 -
[1531] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:CCP Rise wrote:New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think. In short I'm not entirely convinced on either because there is no 8 weapon slot BS now you could adjust the mega to be the new 8 weapon slot boat but IMO this slot would have to be a low giving it a layout of: Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 7L; 8 turrets (+1) , 0 launchers(-2) And adjust drone stats to: Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 50(-75) These changes I would feel make it to quote yourself CCP Rise wrote: to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat. even with a Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: of 7.5% to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire and Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed adjusting capacitor recharge and ships powergrid to compensate for the extra turret and ROF bonus. and as for the Hyperion: Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Are you realy going to give the hyperion the launcher after orignialy wanting to remove the launcher points from the mega when it has gratley been admitted in the thread that 7 turrets and a neut or nos was used with the mega, I'm not saying take the 7th slot away just the launcher hardpoint. Zloco Crendraven wrote:
2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank?
NO just because you think It is does not make it so some people think pluging that explosive hole is important.
On the launcher thing. They do have uses, and giving the Hyperion alternative options is fine. Not everybody takes battleships out solely to blob 300 by 300 people at a time.
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smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 13:31:00 -
[1532] - Quote
Tennessee Jack wrote:
On the launcher thing. They do have uses, and giving the Hyperion alternative options is fine. Not everybody takes battleships out solely to blob 300 by 300 people at a time.
No you're right even in the realms of PVE it would be more beneficial to fit something else than a launcher like:
A nos for incoming cap to help manage your local tank that you have a bonus to A salvager to salvage ( this can also be done by drones now ) A tractor beam A auto targeter module a smartbomb a neut
You also save space for all them lovley cap boost charges you are eating due to dual or even triple reps. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 14:14:00 -
[1533] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:seems like the navy brutix will kill off the new mega before it has started :(
WTF? |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 14:20:00 -
[1534] - Quote
Rise,
Not sure if you are still be looking for feedback, but after fiddling around with potential setups I think we're almost there:
On the Megathron, I would suggest to follow the Kronos approach to drone bay - 75/125, so that it sticks with the 'stronger gunboat' theme, but as a Gallente boat retains it's drone flexibilty and logically scales up from T1 to T2.
I think the Hyperion is there, the Dominix; we'll see.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 14:25:00 -
[1535] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Rise,
Not sure if you are still be looking for feedback, but after fiddling around with potential setups I think we're almost there:
On the Megathron, I would suggest to follow the Kronos approach to drone bay - 75/125, so that it sticks with the 'stronger gunboat' theme, but as a Gallente boat retains it's drone flexibilty and logically scales up from T1 to T2.
I think the Hyperion is there, the Dominix; we'll see.
I see that the problem with Mega is the problem with hybrids: range. But if you change range, you have lasers (by the cap approach, not the no-cap approach of Minma projectiles). I did severals posts months ago and see they have taken the right approach (Maels have 9x m/s and Mega have 12x m/s), but will be matter that someone test it in SiSi to see if it's enough with short-range blasters against AC's fitting TE's. Unluckly, I don't have time (university) to test it in SiSi. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 14:34:00 -
[1536] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Actually, with 7 / 4 / 8, the new mega has better DPS at mid ranges than any fleet ship but an Abaddon, competitive mid-long range DPS only eclipsed by the Rokh, and everything necessary to tank like the best of them except a little more CPU. Without that CPU, it can have a tank equal to a Rokh's EHP with an inferior resist profile, or a perfectly balanced resist profile with about 7k EHP less than a Maelstrom.
Give the ship 600 base CPU and it will be an excellent fleet ship. The slot layout is the entire reason it can - with the wasted utility high (yes, wasted), it can't compete.
The thing about utility highs is they only apply to certain kinds of PvP. None of the items you could fit there matter outside about 25km range, except for a cyno, which is not something game breaking. The only fits that use that highslot are the ones fitting neuts for brawling (RRs are a waste in today's game). The thing about brawling megas is they benefit quite a bit from 8 lows - absurd gank or very solid tank become options, whereas before a mega couldn't fit a solid tank, only a decent one, without gimping its DPS. And honestly, megas tend to deplete their target's tank before they deplete its cap.
7 / 5 / 7 makes it a lot harder to justify a mega in a fleet - even if it got its 600 CPU, you're giving up a magstab for a tracking comp. This means it stops competing with the Mael and Abaddon in midrange (DPS plummets) and is just an inferior armor Rokh.
8 / 4 / 7 changes nothing from the current game, and keeps the ship completely unable to compete at all.
This is a good slot layout. The Hyperion gained a utility high to boot - there is still a ship that can blaster brawl with 7 lows, 5 mids and a heavy neut. Except now it has an even bigger tank. Because they chose to put the Hyperion in this role, it becomes a ship that might just be fleet viable as well - because of that massive base armor HP, it doesn't need to stack 2 plates to get to the 120-130k EHP range.
In short, there is still a heavy neuting blaster brawler, and Gallente just gained 2 potential fleet doctrine candidates. This is a win win, don't even try to complain dude.
so now if we left the mega alone with 7+1 4 7 as the fast attack BS and made the hype 6 5 8 with 20% falloff bonus and 10% damage gave the rep bonus to the domi alongside a 10% to all drone stats (controll range, damage, hp, speed, tracking,)
we would keep the well working mega would get an even more awesome fleet BS that could use blasters at medium range and a really good domi too Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
114
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:02:00 -
[1537] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:No you're right even in the realms of PVE it would be more beneficial to fit something else than a launcher like:
A nos for incoming cap to help manage your local tank that you have a bonus to A salvager to salvage ( this can also be done by drones now ) A tractor beam A auto targeter module a smartbomb a neut
You also save space for all them lovley cap boost charges you are eating due to dual or even triple reps.
While on the supject of cap injection please adjust the cargo bay slightly on the Hyperion anything more than it is now.
For PvE?
You are funny, or just don't ever PvE.
Nos has a very marginal affect. Salvager/Tractors maybe on a Kronos with the tractor bonus, otherwise Noctis or drones. Auto Targeter isn't something you see alot of--- at least for mission running you tend to need to be careful of your targets. Smartbomb maybe in low or null. They are potentially a death sentence in high sec, griefer types like to cloak up next to you for concordokken fun. Neuts are 100% useless in PvE
With decent missle skills, even an unbonused light launcher works well for frigate control in PvE, especially if you dont carry light drones or carry salvager drones in place of a combat flight of lights. In addition, by the standards of a battleships powergrid and CPU light missle launchers are practically free, and even Rapid Light launchers are nearly negligeable, though their performance over standard light launchers are not worth their cost in fittings---but if you have it to spare, who cares?
Somewhat more useful, if you happen to be fitting rails and using light drones is a Drone Link Augmentor. An extra 20K or so of range on some lights can add beween 80 to 100 dps to more distant targets. Again, if you like using drones on an extended basis in PvE a small armor repairer can occasionally see use as well.
I'm personally a fan of a few utility launchers on most hulls, the same way drones have been added as utility on many hulls. You don't have to fit them, and they may not be optimal in many situations, but I personally favor having the option. For PvE, there are few highslot items that would be more useful, and most of them in very niche applications. A little bit of selectable, assured damage is always welcome. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:18:00 -
[1538] - Quote
wallenbergaren wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Use the extra low slots and fit modules to boost your falloff.
If you want to shield tank a blaster boat with falloff bonuses, fly a Rokh. You mean a Deimos, a blaster ship that actually has a falloff bonus? Falloff bonuses are great for blaster boats and I agree that the Mega should have one instead of the tracking bonus. I'm inclined to agree here. I think the Mega's bonus should be +5% ROF and +5% Falloff per level, and the slot layout should be adjusted to 7/5/7--it still gives you the ROF bonus, and the falloff bonus allows you to apply damage in a larger engagement envelope (something blasters definitely need), all while not competing with the Talos' tracking bonus. What's more, the 7/5/7 slot layout is more flexible, allowing a TC in that fifth mid if you wanted to track harder, and much more flexibility if you wanted to go with a shield-tanking/high agility fit.
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Macomb
N0 Destination RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:25:00 -
[1539] - Quote
I totally understand the initiative here, to give current battleships distinctive roles.
However, please dont touch dominix... or tweak the changes a bit.
the turret nerf will make its already-horrible-dps even worse.... |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1601
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:34:00 -
[1540] - Quote
Macomb wrote:I totally understand the initiative here, to give current battleships distinctive roles.
However, please dont touch dominix... or tweak the changes a bit.
the turret nerf will make its already-horrible-dps even worse....
With the standard Domi and sentry drones I get 800 dps (drone damage mods of course), not including guns. How much dps do yo consider good?
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:34:00 -
[1541] - Quote
Macomb wrote:I totally understand the initiative here, to give current battleships distinctive roles.
However, please dont touch dominix... or tweak the changes a bit.
the turret nerf will make its already-horrible-dps even worse.... 1200~1400 total DPS is horrible? Post changes it can still peak at 1000~1200 DPS. The only thing the Dominix needs is a bit more drone bay and more drone control range. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1601
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:35:00 -
[1542] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:wallenbergaren wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Use the extra low slots and fit modules to boost your falloff.
If you want to shield tank a blaster boat with falloff bonuses, fly a Rokh. You mean a Deimos, a blaster ship that actually has a falloff bonus? Falloff bonuses are great for blaster boats and I agree that the Mega should have one instead of the tracking bonus. I'm inclined to agree here. I think the Mega's bonus should be +5% ROF and +5% Falloff per level, and the slot layout should be adjusted to 7/5/7--it still gives you the ROF bonus, and the falloff bonus allows you to apply damage in a larger engagement envelope (something blasters definitely need), all while not competing with the Talos' tracking bonus. What's more, the 7/5/7 slot layout is more flexible, allowing a TC in that fifth mid if you wanted to track harder, and much more flexibility if you wanted to go with a shield-tanking/high agility fit.
+1 for fall off bonus, especially give what the TE nerf will do to blasters.
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:41:00 -
[1543] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:wallenbergaren wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Use the extra low slots and fit modules to boost your falloff.
If you want to shield tank a blaster boat with falloff bonuses, fly a Rokh. You mean a Deimos, a blaster ship that actually has a falloff bonus? Falloff bonuses are great for blaster boats and I agree that the Mega should have one instead of the tracking bonus. I'm inclined to agree here. I think the Mega's bonus should be +5% ROF and +5% Falloff per level, and the slot layout should be adjusted to 7/5/7--it still gives you the ROF bonus, and the falloff bonus allows you to apply damage in a larger engagement envelope (something blasters definitely need), all while not competing with the Talos' tracking bonus. What's more, the 7/5/7 slot layout is more flexible, allowing a TC in that fifth mid if you wanted to track harder, and much more flexibility if you wanted to go with a shield-tanking/high agility fit. +1 for fall off bonus, especially give what the TE nerf will do to blasters. Definitely. It'd vary up the space currently occupied by ships that fly with large blasters, while making the Mega able to apply it's damage farther out--something the Talos doesn't have to worry about because it's much faster than a BS.
I mean, I'd argue, too, that the Mega should have the -1 turret/+10% damage application per level over the Hype, and the Hype should get the ROF bonus, because ROF allows you to switch targets faster, a far better consideration for solo BSs trying to engage multiple targets and defeat them quickly.
Heck, if the Mega got the -1 turret/+10% damage thing, CCP could move the 7th highslot being freed up to the lows to have 6/5/8, which would make the Mega a true monster.
|
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:44:00 -
[1544] - Quote
How about a hull bonus of this for the mega:
+7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed and Hybrid Turret fall off
The tracking speed bonus is even more essential if tracking enhancers are getting a hit ( unless the final low slot layout is 8 then it might work ). |
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:44:00 -
[1545] - Quote
Just ran the number on the new Hyperion... With Damnation and Exile boosters you are looking at 1079 DPS and a 2673 DPS tank, unheated without capacitor issues.
Seems a high to me even faction fit...
Obviously not everyone would fit it this way but its a monster... It makes my PVP Navy Scorp fit with similar mods look like a toy.
[Hyperion, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Centus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Centus C-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Centus C-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor True Sansha Stasis Webifier Ammatar Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Ammatar Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Core C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ammatar Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Large Ancillary Current Router II Large Nanobot Accelerator II Large Anti-EM Pump II
Berserker II x4 Warrior II x1 Warrior II x4
|
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:47:00 -
[1546] - Quote
I could certainly see that High on the Mega moving to a Mid instead of a low but with 8 lows the mega can still sub in as a decent fleet rail platform. Looks very flexible.
Looking at that Hellcat and the Rail Mega the interesting thing is when you shoot them at each other there is really only a 2k ehp in it in favour of the Hellcat. It is the CPU wall the Mega hits that is holding it back resorting to ANPGÇÖs.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:49:00 -
[1547] - Quote
Shingorash wrote:Just ran the number on the new Hyperion... With Damnation and Exile boosters you are looking at 1079 DPS and a 2673 DPS tank, unheated without capacitor issues.
Seems a high to me even faction fit...
Obviously not everyone would fit it this way but its a monster... It makes my PVP Navy Scorp fit with similar mods look like a toy.
[Hyperion, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Centus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Centus C-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Centus C-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor True Sansha Stasis Webifier Ammatar Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Ammatar Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Core C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ammatar Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Large Ancillary Current Router II Large Nanobot Accelerator II Large Anti-EM Pump II
Berserker II x4 Warrior II x1 Warrior II x4
What is this supposed to be? Good god mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:53:00 -
[1548] - Quote
Solo PVP fit, its not that expensive.... :)
Ill certainly be buying one like that if it stays how it is at the moment, that thing is a monster. |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 15:59:00 -
[1549] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Macomb wrote:I totally understand the initiative here, to give current battleships distinctive roles.
However, please dont touch dominix... or tweak the changes a bit.
the turret nerf will make its already-horrible-dps even worse.... With the standard Domi and sentry drones I get 800 dps (drone damage mods of course), not including guns. How much dps do yo consider good?
current navy dom damage is good :D 1400 dps :D
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3358
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:03:00 -
[1550] - Quote
Andski wrote:Shingorash wrote:Just ran the number on the new Hyperion... With Damnation and Exile boosters you are looking at 1079 DPS and a 2673 DPS tank, unheated without capacitor issues.
Seems a high to me even faction fit...
Obviously not everyone would fit it this way but its a monster... It makes my PVP Navy Scorp fit with similar mods look like a toy.
[Hyperion, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Centus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Centus C-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Centus C-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor True Sansha Stasis Webifier Ammatar Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Ammatar Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Core C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Ammatar Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Large Ancillary Current Router II Large Nanobot Accelerator II Large Anti-EM Pump II
Berserker II x4 Warrior II x1 Warrior II x4
What is this supposed to be? Good god He is going to be so mad when he loses this because he was perma jammed by a flight of light ECM drones from a Drake.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
|
Joe Neal
Koa Mai Hoku Nulli Legio
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:03:00 -
[1551] - Quote
I feel this is a very good day to be gallente. Everyone that says there needs to more changes are the ones that dont have the skills to use them properly. Myself and many others in alliance are already talking about how to use the domi in fun fleets and for major ops. The mega and hype have both gained something they both needed. The mega is likely to b made into a fleet concept and the hype is even better for low-sec and even for large scale battles. Unless there are issues when it comes time to try them on sisi i cant wait for these to come and i will b buying hordes of these beasts very soon. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:05:00 -
[1552] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: There is so much... situational stuff you're prior to looking at the fit, just black out. Ships are more than just numbers, and going with static opinions to fits only leads to the armortalos. Just fly more, use less eft.
It's pretty damn cut and dry where blaster boats hold an advantage. Methinks you just aren't very bright. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:11:00 -
[1553] - Quote
Andski wrote: What is this supposed to be? Good god
A pi+¦ata, duh. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:12:00 -
[1554] - Quote
For CCP Rise
CCP Rise wrote:This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately. If you want to bring back the Megathron back to what it became famous for, you need to remember what dethroned it in the first place. Over the years there were many indirect nerfs that hit the Megathron such as: Speed nerfs, web nerfs, boosts in other races, etc. all changes that left the mega in worse and worse shape over time. While all these changes were being brought into the game, the Mega was never compensated for all the negative impacts that would affect it's performance. Ideally these compensation would have taken place while all the nerfs took place, but we know that did not happen. So now lucky you, has to deal the mess that you didn't even create. Good luck, keep your chin up.
My version of what I'd like to see.
Megathron: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed +10% Stasis Webifier effectiveness per level (Would bring back the old 90% effect at max level. Allowing blasters to actually hit their targets properly)
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 590 CPU(+40) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6250(+39) / 6750(+109) / 7350(-150) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 135(+20) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
This version provides the needed speed boost to actually get on target and apply the DPS. The added armor HP boost gives it a buffer to stay alive while it gets there, as well as making it a more viable choice for larger fleet doctrines.
The one thing I'm not certain on is the high and mid slot swap. Given the new ROF bonus it will be draining cap quite fast making a cap injector mandatory. Thus making an extra mid essential for any chance of cap stability, but the 5 mid slots opens the door for some odd shield setups.
|
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:20:00 -
[1555] - Quote
Grendell wrote:For CCP Rise CCP Rise wrote:This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately. If you want to bring back the Megathron back to what it became famous for, you need to remember what dethroned it in the first place. Over the years there were many indirect nerfs that hit the Megathron such as: Speed nerfs, web nerfs, boosts in other races, etc. all changes that left the mega in worse and worse shape over time. While all these changes were being brought into the game, the Mega was never compensated for all the negative impacts that would affect it's performance. Ideally these compensation would have taken place while all the nerfs took place, but we know that did not happen. So now lucky you, has to deal the mess that you didn't even create. Good luck, keep your chin up. My version of what I'd like to see. Megathron:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed +10% Stasis Webifier effectiveness per level (Would bring back the old 90% effect at max level. Allowing blasters to actually hit their targets properly) Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 590 CPU(+40) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6250(+39) / 6750(+109) / 7350(-150) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 135(+20) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20) This version provides the needed speed boost to actually get on target and apply the DPS. The added armor HP boost gives it a buffer to stay alive while it gets there, as well as making it a more viable choice for larger fleet doctrines. The one thing I'm not certain on is the high and mid slot swap. Given the new ROF bonus it will be draining cap quite fast making a cap injector mandatory. Thus making an extra mid essential for any chance of cap stability, but the 5 mid slots opens the door for some odd shield setups.
That would be a vindicator. |
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:23:00 -
[1556] - Quote
I wouldn't be mad at losing it. Its only a few billion.
Although, yeah, ECM is a pain in the ass. |
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:33:00 -
[1557] - Quote
Fleet Sentry Domi
650 DPS at 80KM with Garde II's and 586 DPS at 130KM with Bouncer II's.
That will likely be used in fleets on a regular basis if it stays as it currently is.
Gallente ships at the moment are looking like they are going to be much more useful in fleets. It is about time they got some love really...
[Dominix, Sentry] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Large YF-12a Smartbomb ?
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Garde II x5 Bouncer II x5
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:37:00 -
[1558] - Quote
Shingorash wrote:Fleet Sentry Domi
650 DPS at 80KM with Garde II's and 586 DPS at 130KM with Bouncer II's.
That will likely be used in fleets on a regular basis if it stays as it currently is.
Gallente ships at the moment are looking like they are going to be much more useful in fleets. It is about time they got some love really...
[Dominix, Sentry] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Large YF-12a Smartbomb ?
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Garde II x5 Bouncer II x5
Fleets move, you know. Constantly.
Sentry ships that aren't carriers are losing their DPS every time they do an on-grid warp. Not viable to be completely frank. No one fights standing still. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Ninavask
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:41:00 -
[1559] - Quote
No no no no. Eight guns on Hyperion or gtfo. I don't care if you have to take away drones for it to be balanced, Hyperion is a gunship not an aircraft carrier. Dr. Ninavask Revan CEO - Commander The Synenose Accord Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:48:00 -
[1560] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Shingorash wrote:Fleet Sentry Domi
650 DPS at 80KM with Garde II's and 586 DPS at 130KM with Bouncer II's.
That will likely be used in fleets on a regular basis if it stays as it currently is.
Gallente ships at the moment are looking like they are going to be much more useful in fleets. It is about time they got some love really...
[Dominix, Sentry] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Large YF-12a Smartbomb ?
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Garde II x5 Bouncer II x5
Fleets move, you know. Constantly. Sentry ships that aren't carriers are losing their DPS every time they do an on-grid warp. Not viable to be completely frank. No one fights standing still. Almost seems like the Dominix could use some extra done bay so it it loses some drones it wont be crippled, and some control range so it can use railguns in the high slots rather than a bunch of DLAs. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:51:00 -
[1561] - Quote
Deerin wrote:Grendell wrote:For CCP Rise CCP Rise wrote:This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately. If you want to bring back the Megathron back to what it became famous for, you need to remember what dethroned it in the first place. Over the years there were many indirect nerfs that hit the Megathron such as: Speed nerfs, web nerfs, boosts in other races, etc. all changes that left the mega in worse and worse shape over time. While all these changes were being brought into the game, the Mega was never compensated for all the negative impacts that would affect it's performance. Ideally these compensation would have taken place while all the nerfs took place, but we know that did not happen. So now lucky you, has to deal the mess that you didn't even create. Good luck, keep your chin up. My version of what I'd like to see. Megathron:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed +10% Stasis Webifier effectiveness per level (Would bring back the old 90% effect at max level. Allowing blasters to actually hit their targets properly) Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 590 CPU(+40) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6250(+39) / 6750(+109) / 7350(-150) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 135(+20) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20) This version provides the needed speed boost to actually get on target and apply the DPS. The added armor HP boost gives it a buffer to stay alive while it gets there, as well as making it a more viable choice for larger fleet doctrines. The one thing I'm not certain on is the high and mid slot swap. Given the new ROF bonus it will be draining cap quite fast making a cap injector mandatory. Thus making an extra mid essential for any chance of cap stability, but the 5 mid slots opens the door for some odd shield setups. That would be a vindicator. Edit a point range bonus instead of tracking on the other hand..... Only thing in common with the Vindicator is the Web bonus. Apart from that Vindicator has 8/5/7 slots layout, better, PG, CPU, armour, shield, structure, capacitor, drone bandwidth, etc. To put it simply, the Vindicator is better in just about every way.
Sharing a single bonus does not make it the same ship. It's like saying the Machariel and the Tempest are the same because they share "5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level" So I'd have to disagree saying that the Megathron would be a vindicator.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:53:00 -
[1562] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Almost seems like the Dominix could use some extra done bay so it it loses some drones it wont be crippled, and some control range so it can use railguns in the high slots rather than a bunch of DLAs.
It is as though fleets only reposition 2-3 times a battle, and sit still at each one! TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:59:00 -
[1563] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Almost seems like the Dominix could use some extra done bay so it it loses some drones it wont be crippled, and some control range so it can use railguns in the high slots rather than a bunch of DLAs.
It is as though fleets only reposition 2-3 times a battle, and sit still at each one! @Grendell, T1 battleships don't get 3 bonuses. It is possible to strategically reposition your self to be close to your drones at the end of the fight, even just to make a BM where you drop them so you can on-grid warp back to them. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:08:00 -
[1564] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is possible to strategically reposition your self to be close to your drones at the end of the fight, even just to make a BM where you drop them so you can on-grid warp back to them.
If only you could control sentries at >150km! mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
907
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:09:00 -
[1565] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: @Grendell, T1 battleships don't get 3 bonuses.
see the scorp... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Kn1v3s 999
LA MEGADITTA Test Alliance Please Ignore
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:09:00 -
[1566] - Quote
Grendell wrote:For CCP Rise CCP Rise wrote:This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately. If you want to bring back the Megathron back to what it became famous for, you need to remember what dethroned it in the first place. Over the years there were many indirect nerfs that hit the Megathron such as: Speed nerfs, web nerfs, boosts in other races, etc. all changes that left the mega in worse and worse shape over time. While all these changes were being brought into the game, the Mega was never compensated for all the negative impacts that would affect it's performance. Ideally these compensation would have taken place while all the nerfs took place, but we know that did not happen. So now lucky you, has to deal the mess that you didn't even create. Good luck, keep your chin up. My version of what I'd like to see. Megathron:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed +10% Stasis Webifier effectiveness per level (Would bring back the old 90% effect at max level. Allowing blasters to actually hit their targets properly) Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 590 CPU(+40) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6250(+39) / 6750(+109) / 7350(-150) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 135(+20) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20) This version provides the needed speed boost to actually get on target and apply the DPS. The added armor HP boost gives it a buffer to stay alive while it gets there, as well as making it a more viable choice for larger fleet doctrines. The one thing I'm not certain on is the high and mid slot swap. Given the new ROF bonus it will be draining cap quite fast making a cap injector mandatory. Thus making an extra mid essential for any chance of cap stability, but the 5 mid slots opens the door for some odd shield setups.
that s a Vindi dude
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:11:00 -
[1567] - Quote
Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is possible to strategically reposition your self to be close to your drones at the end of the fight, even just to make a BM where you drop them so you can on-grid warp back to them. If only you could control sentries at >150km! If only the ship got a bonus to extend its control range. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:13:00 -
[1568] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:If only the ship got a bonus to extend its control range.
If only that wasn't a stupid idea mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:20:00 -
[1569] - Quote
Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:If only the ship got a bonus to extend its control range. If only that wasn't a stupid idea Well forgive me for thinking out side the box and make the most of what the ship has to offer. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
263
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:22:00 -
[1570] - Quote
OMG THAT hyperion! ITS SO ******* SEXY! *-*! i hate gallente ships but that thing i want!
|
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:27:00 -
[1571] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:If only the ship got a bonus to extend its control range. If only that wasn't a stupid idea Well forgive me for thinking out side the box and make the most of what the ship has to offer.
okay you're literally asking for a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters
hope this helps! mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
263
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:27:00 -
[1572] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is possible to strategically reposition your self to be close to your drones at the end of the fight, even just to make a BM where you drop them so you can on-grid warp back to them. If only you could control sentries at >150km! If only the ship got a bonus to extend its control range.
Drone control modules? you got high unbonnused slots, just focus very strongly on your drones and tank, and you can use the highs for control, maxing stats by adding turrets or such is a waste. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:28:00 -
[1573] - Quote
Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:If only the ship got a bonus to extend its control range. If only that wasn't a stupid idea Well forgive me for thinking out side the box and make the most of what the ship has to offer. okay you're literally asking for a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters hope this helps! What? what does a DLA do? it extends the drone control range of the ship by 20k to a t1 and 24k for a t2, a ship bonus to replicate that exact same thing would be extremely beneficial to the new Dominix. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:30:00 -
[1574] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: @Grendell, T1 battleships don't get 3 bonuses.
No reason they can't for the sake of balance. Also Scorpion does get 3 bonuses. because of significant changes made to how EW worked, they compensated the Scorp with new bonuses. Something that was not done for the Mgathron when the speed and web nerfs took place.
Kn1v3s 999 wrote: that s a Vindi dude
Only thing in common with the Vindicator is the Web bonus. Apart from that Vindicator has 8/5/7 slots layout, better, PG, CPU, armour, shield, structure, capacitor, drone bandwidth, etc. To put it simply, the Vindicator is better in just about every way.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:34:00 -
[1575] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:What? what does a DLA do? it extends the drone control range of the ship by 20k to a t1 and 24k for a t2, a ship bonus to replicate that exact same thing would be extremely beneficial to the new Dominix.
Andski wrote:okay you're literally asking for a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters
hope this helps!
bonus mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:41:00 -
[1576] - Quote
Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:What? what does a DLA do? it extends the drone control range of the ship by 20k to a t1 and 24k for a t2, a ship bonus to replicate that exact same thing would be extremely beneficial to the new Dominix. Andski wrote:okay you're literally asking for a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters
hope this helps! bonusYou're asking for hull bonus that no other ship has, and it'd be utterly imbalanced with other drone ships. That is dumb. Fit DLAs and make the fitting sacrifices everyone else has to make because, well, you're not a special snowflake. Hope this helps! Ishtar Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: +5km bonus to Scout and Heavy Drone Operational range and +50m3 extra drone bay per level. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
122
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:49:00 -
[1577] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Andski wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:What? what does a DLA do? it extends the drone control range of the ship by 20k to a t1 and 24k for a t2, a ship bonus to replicate that exact same thing would be extremely beneficial to the new Dominix. Andski wrote:okay you're literally asking for a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters
hope this helps! bonusYou're asking for hull bonus that no other ship has, and it'd be utterly imbalanced with other drone ships. That is dumb. Fit DLAs and make the fitting sacrifices everyone else has to make because, well, you're not a special snowflake. Hope this helps! Ishtar Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: +5km bonus to Scout and Heavy Drone Operational range and +50m3 extra drone bay per level. Silly, Omnathious Deninard, Goons don't fly that!
|
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:53:00 -
[1578] - Quote
I have not tested it on SiSi, but for the love of god... -íLEAVE THAT 8 LOWS IN THE MEGA! The 4 MID's are OK (AB / Scrambler / 2 free for whatever to give versatility). That lows give the versatility it needs for a blaster boat, either tank (armor) or damage projection depending of the situation. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:53:00 -
[1579] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Silly, Omnathious Deninard, Goons don't fly that!
We do, but props on finding one ship in the entire game that has such a bonus
It's also a HAC, not a T1 ship mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:55:00 -
[1580] - Quote
Why would you put an AB on a battleship, let alone a short range battleship? TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
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Komen
Capital Enrichment Services Existential Anxiety
181
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:56:00 -
[1581] - Quote
I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship.
Empty utility slot.
And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus...
I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem.
And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels.
Fired. NEXT. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:02:00 -
[1582] - Quote
Komen wrote:I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship. Empty utility slot. And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus... I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem. And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels. Fired. NEXT.
Traduction: change the tracking bonus for a falloff (OR EVEN OPTIMAL) bonus. A BS should not be designed to hit cruisers. It shouldn't... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
122
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:04:00 -
[1583] - Quote
Andski wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Silly, Omnathious Deninard, Goons don't fly that!
We do, but props on finding one ship in the entire game that has such a bonus It's also a HAC, not a T1 ship Well, I feel compelled to point out that it's not the *one* ship in the entire game, because as you proffered, carriers share that bonus, as well, and are, for all intents and purposes, T1 hulls, too. (But you know I still love you, Andski :)
Now, we'd really need to look at the design intent of the ships that possess them, and in each case (the Ishtar and various carriers) they have the +control range bonus because they are designed as long range platforms. Applying this logic to the Dominix in question, Rise has said that his design intent is for it to operate as a long range sniping platform, supporting that contention with +optimal and tracking to drones (presumably sentries).
It would seem, then, that asking for a bonus (either per level or role) that furthers this design intention would make sense. Whether it should be offered when there are modules that already perform that function, is another question. However, there is precedent for ships to receive bonuses that were already offered through modules--applying to drones--such as the Algos' bonus to drone MWD speed, which, as we all know, is provided via drone navigation computers.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:04:00 -
[1584] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Komen wrote:I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship. Empty utility slot. And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus... I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem. And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels. Fired. NEXT. Traduction: change the tracking bonus for a falloff bonus. A BS should not be designed to hit cruisers. It shouldn't...
The WHO is supposed to kil cruisers? its exaclty the opposite. BS > Cruiser > frigates > BS. That is the rock paper scissor the game was designed originally . |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:05:00 -
[1585] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:It's also a HAC, not a T1 ship Well, I feel compelled to point out that it's not the *one* ship in the entire game, because as you proffered, carriers share that bonus, as well, and are, for all intents and purposes, T1 hulls, too. (But you know I still love you, Andski :) [/quote]
Andski wrote:a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters
be wrong more mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:06:00 -
[1586] - Quote
Komen wrote:I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship. Empty utility slot. And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus... I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem. And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels. Fired. NEXT.
Lemme guess. Neut (only matters for brawler fits), Remote Rep (waste of a slot), and cyno.
That slot is empty in the vast majority of Megas I have seen. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:07:00 -
[1587] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:Komen wrote:I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship. Empty utility slot. And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus... I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem. And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels. Fired. NEXT. Traduction: change the tracking bonus for a falloff bonus. A BS should not be designed to hit cruisers. It shouldn't... The WHO is supposed to kil cruisers? its exaclty the opposite. BS > Cruiser > frigates > BS. That is the rock paper scissor the game was designed originally .
BS > BC > Cruiser > Destroyer > Frigate
Everything on this counters the ship 2 to its left if flown well, and everything else to its left if flown by a monkey. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:08:00 -
[1588] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:Komen wrote:I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship. Empty utility slot. And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus... I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem. And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels. Fired. NEXT. Traduction: change the tracking bonus for a falloff bonus. A BS should not be designed to hit cruisers. It shouldn't... The WHO is supposed to kil cruisers? its exaclty the opposite. BS > Cruiser > frigates > BS. That is the rock paper scissor the game was designed originally .
With the buffed speed of the Mega (only the Typhoon have more speed), that tracking bonus is made for hitting smaller-size vessels. You don't need a tracking bonus in a faster ship, by the way that orbiting the enemy ship works. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:09:00 -
[1589] - Quote
Grendell wrote:Only thing in common with the Vindicator is the Web bonus. Apart from that Vindicator has 8/5/7 slots layout, better, PG, CPU, armour, shield, structure, capacitor, drone bandwidth, etc. To put it simply, the Vindicator is better in just about every way. Sharing a single bonus does not make it the same ship. It's like saying the Machariel and the Tempest are the same because they share "5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level" So I'd have to disagree saying that the Megathron would be a vindicator.
Dude, you're bad. If you can't see the similarities between your hilariously overpowered mega suggestion then please just ******* biomass.
What you did is create a slightly worse vindi, and then you rant about how it's not at all similar to the vindi, then rant about "sharing one bonus" yet your stupid suggestion and the vindi share 2 bonuses. Like wtf, you're bad, and you should feel bad. Get out of this thread.
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:09:00 -
[1590] - Quote
Andski wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Silly, Omnathious Deninard, Goons don't fly that!
We do, but props on finding one ship in the entire game that has such a bonus It's also a HAC, not a T1 ship, and the bonuses don't apply to sentries what's it like being wrong twice Let's look at the Talwar for a moment, it gets a 15% reduction of the signature radius penalty of microwarpdrives per level, which at the time was exclusively a T2 ship bonus. It was deemed useful to use on that ship and was given to it. In the case of the Exequror it was given a 100% increase to the repair amount of logistic drones, a bonus that again was only for t2 ships but was deemed useful for it but was given as a role bonus instead of a leveled bonus. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:11:00 -
[1591] - Quote
if u gonna keep the mega with these bonuses AT LEAST swap/add more HP to it. Make it a combat BS and Hype an attack bs.
the 8th lows is good an all, but it DOES NOT fit the roles of an attack, its more like a combat ship. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:11:00 -
[1592] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: With the buffed speed of the Mega (only the Typhoon have more speed), that tracking bonus is made for hitting smaller-size vessels. You don't need a tracking bonus in a faster ship, by the way that orbiting the enemy ship works.
Uh.
If two ships have identical tracking, it doesn't matter how they are moving, they have an equal chance of hitting each other.
When you orbit someone, you're making it harder for them to hit you as well as making it equally hard for you to hit them. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:11:00 -
[1593] - Quote
It's simple: you don't need a web bonus in the Mega. You only need more range (Tracking Enhancers in that 8 lows) and you will solve all the problems that the Mega has. For me, I would keep it this way of the OP. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:13:00 -
[1594] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:Komen wrote:I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship. Empty utility slot. And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus... I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem. And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels. Fired. NEXT. Traduction: change the tracking bonus for a falloff bonus. A BS should not be designed to hit cruisers. It shouldn't... The WHO is supposed to kil cruisers? its exaclty the opposite. BS > Cruiser > frigates > BS. That is the rock paper scissor the game was designed originally . BS > BC > Cruiser > Destroyer > Frigate Everything on this counters the ship 2 to its left if flown well, and everything else to its left if flown by a monkey.
BC were not in the game at the start... read the whole sentence.
|
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:15:00 -
[1595] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: With the buffed speed of the Mega (only the Typhoon have more speed), that tracking bonus is made for hitting smaller-size vessels. You don't need a tracking bonus in a faster ship, by the way that orbiting the enemy ship works.
Uh. If two ships have identical tracking, it doesn't matter how they are moving, they have an equal chance of hitting each other. When you orbit someone, you're making it harder for them to hit you as well as making it equally hard for you to hit them.
Yes, it's harder to hit also for you, but for that the hybrids have more tracking than the projectiles and the lasers ;) I repeat: you don't need a tracking bonus in a faster ship.
For the sake of example, compare three weapons:
Neutron Blaster Cannon II Mega Pulse Laser II 800mm Repeating Artillery II http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
122
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:15:00 -
[1596] - Quote
Andski wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Well, I feel compelled to point out that it's not the *one* ship in the entire game, because as you proffered, carriers share that bonus, as well, and are, for all intents and purposes, T1 hulls, too. (But you know I still love you, Andski :)
Andski wrote:a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters be wrong more I'm confused here. Were you suggesting that you should "be wrong more"? I can't possibly see that you're saying I'm wrong, since going by what you quoted, you were the one incorrect, or, as you put it, in the "wrong."
Allow me to illustrate: You (Andski) mentioned that the "bonus doesn't exist on any other ship in the game. . .," yet Omnathious pointed out that it does, in fact, exist on another ship.
Next, you claimed that the comparison was invalid, since it was "a HAC," despite ever restricting your contention to T1 hulls only.
Then, I merely point out that 1) there are other ships that share the bonus, and 2) there are T1 hulls that share that trait.
So, I really don't see how you'd possibly be talking about anyone other than yourself. :S
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:15:00 -
[1597] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:BC were not in the game at the start... read the whole sentence.
so your point about stuff relevant in 2003, which is no longer relevant, is invalid mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3058
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:16:00 -
[1598] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
BC were not in the game at the start... read the whole sentence.
I, too, think 10 year old design paradigms altered heavily through 18 expansions are relevant to this discussion.
You're talking about irrelevant ideas. I'm talking about now. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:17:00 -
[1599] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Then, I merely point out that 1) there are other ships that share the bonus, and 2) there are T1 hulls that share that trait.
Feel free to tell me why any of this matters when we're talking about giving the Dominix an across-the-board control range bonus, which no ship in the game has, period. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:18:00 -
[1600] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
BC were not in the game at the start... read the whole sentence.
I, too, think 10 year old design paradigms altered heavily through 18 expansions are relevant to this discussion. You're talking about irrelevant ideas. I'm talking about now.
Talkign about the megatrhon bonus.. taht was added taht time. Provign that it was made exaclty to hit cruisers. |
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:24:00 -
[1601] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Talkign about the megatrhon bonus.. taht was added taht time. Provign that it was made exaclty to hit cruisers.
Titans were originally made to kill most ships in a grid
Apparently they aren't able to do that anymore! mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
852
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:26:00 -
[1602] - Quote
Andski wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Then, I merely point out that 1) there are other ships that share the bonus, and 2) there are T1 hulls that share that trait.
Feel free to tell me why any of this matters when we're talking about giving the Dominix an across-the-board control range bonus, which no ship in the game has, period. That is something to contemplate at least. A operational range increase for sentry drones. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:30:00 -
[1603] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote: Dude, you're bad. If you can't see the similarities between your hilariously overpowered mega suggestion then please just ******* biomass.
I'll be happy to discuss why you feel the suggestion is overpowered. You probably don't know but I've been around the block when it comes to pvp all the way back to EVE's launch. So I've personally experienced all the changes EVE and this ship has gone through.
Askulf Joringer wrote: What you did is create a slightly worse vindi, and then you rant about how it's not at all similar to the vindi, then rant about "sharing one bonus" yet your stupid suggestion and the vindi share 2 bonuses. Like wtf, you're bad, and you should feel bad. Get out of this thread.
The suggestion would make the Megathron a worse Vindicator, same as a Apocalypse Navy Issue is a better version of the Apocalypse.
On another note, you seem very angry for some reason, I'd suggest putting those issues aside in an effort to have a productive discussion.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:36:00 -
[1604] - Quote
Andski wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Talkign about the megatrhon bonus.. taht was added taht time. Provign that it was made exaclty to hit cruisers. Titans were originally made to kill most ships in a grid Apparently they aren't able to do that anymore!
They were changed so that would happen. Nothign was made to megathron in order for it to stop being able to kill cruisers.
in fact blasters trackign was INCREASED even more last time they were balanced. Provign that the statament that battleships are not supposed to kill cruisers.. is FALSE. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3361
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:48:00 -
[1605] - Quote
I really don't know why some of you are insisting the Dominix would be a valid fleet sniper.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:49:00 -
[1606] - Quote
[Megathron, Pure-Brawler] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
1019 DPS at 8,8 km with 0.09937 of tracking. And you can even have another low slot (don't know if more buffer or other EANM). 63037 of EHP, but it's attack role, not combat role. THIS is the right way :) http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:52:00 -
[1607] - Quote
Grendell wrote:I'll be happy to discuss why you feel the suggestion is overpowered. You probably don't know but I've been around the block when it comes to pvp all the way back to EVE's launch. So I've personally experienced all the changes EVE and this ship has gone through. The suggestion would make the Megathron a worse Vindicator, same as a Apocalypse Navy Issue is a better version of the Apocalypse. On another note, you seem very angry for some reason, I'd suggest putting those issues aside in an effort to have a productive discussion.
I'm not angry, I just hate baddies who for some reason don't understand that their suggestions suck. You are a spitting image of the baddies I am describing here. As for the discussion? I'ts really not worth it, if you can't see how your initial suggestion is extremely stupid then you are beyond help, do the eve community a favor by raising the mean intelligence via biomassing and quitting, thank you.
P.S. Your apoc/napac vs mega/vindi comparison is invalid because the vindi is a pirate faction Bs, which have 3 bonuses, navy BS have 2. You're bad and you should feel bad.
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Galileo Black
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:53:00 -
[1608] - Quote
CCP Rise - FIXED wrote: Hyperion:
Here's the FIXED Hyperion. The FIXED Hyperion keeps its 8 turrets, exchanged 5% damage for 5% RoF, and keeps its armor repair bonus. It also gains a heavy drone in both bandwidth and bay. The name of the game here is gross and inefficient. More guns need more cap, the rate of fire bonus only extenuates that, but this gains a substantial amount of DPS.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Rate of Fire +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H(+0), 5M, 6L(+0); 8 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 17000 PWG(+1250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8250 (+250) / 8000 (-500) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7500 (+300) / 1250s / 6 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 125(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 24 (+1) Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 490 (+5)
Megathron:
Moving to a more attack role, the Megathron gains a 10% damage bonus to 6 turrets, added mobility, and keeps the utility high. Loses some EHP, and a drone.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Damage +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 13500(-2000) PWG, 575 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5625(+0) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 100(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I win. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3059
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:58:00 -
[1609] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:[Megathron, Pure-Brawler] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
1019 DPS at 8,8 km with 0.09937 of tracking. And you can even have another low slot (don't know if more buffer or other EANM). 63037 of EHP, but it's attack role, not combat role. THIS is the right way :)
Phoenix Torp wrote:100MN Afterburner II 63037 of EHP
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:58:00 -
[1610] - Quote
Galileo Black wrote:CCP Rise - FIXED wrote: Hyperion:
Here's the FIXED Hyperion. The FIXED Hyperion keeps its 8 turrets, exchanged 5% damage for 5% RoF, and keeps its armor repair bonus. It also gains a heavy drone in both bandwidth and bay. The name of the game here is gross and inefficient. More guns need more cap, the rate of fire bonus only extenuates that, but this gains a substantial amount of DPS.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Rate of Fire +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H(+0), 5M, 6L(+0); 8 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 17000 PWG(+1250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8250 (+250) / 8000 (-500) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7500 (+300) / 1250s / 6 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 125(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 24 (+1) Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 490 (+5)
Megathron:
Moving to a more attack role, the Megathron gains a 10% damage bonus to 6 turrets, added mobility, and keeps the utility high. Loses some EHP, and a drone.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Damage +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 13500(-2000) PWG, 575 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5625(+0) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 100(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
The Mega don't have damage bonus. The new Mega has RoF bonus, but I would approve to keep that damage bonus, clearly. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
|
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:04:00 -
[1611] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:[Megathron, Pure-Brawler] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
1019 DPS at 8,8 km with 0.09937 of tracking. And you can even have another low slot (don't know if more buffer or other EANM). 63037 of EHP, but it's attack role, not combat role. THIS is the right way :) Phoenix Torp wrote:100MN Afterburner II 63037 of EHP
And what do you put? A Tracking Computer? You have 0.09937 of tracking, man... xD http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:05:00 -
[1612] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:[Megathron, Pure-Brawler] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
1019 DPS at 8,8 km with 0.09937 of tracking. And you can even have another low slot (don't know if more buffer or other EANM). 63037 of EHP, but it's attack role, not combat role. THIS is the right way :) [quote=Phoenix Torp]100MN Afterburner II 63037 of EHP [quote=Phoenix Torp] 100MN Afterburner II 63037 of EHP
And what do you put? A Tracking Computer? You have 0.09937 of tracking, man... and BTW you will need to get in optimal range XD http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:06:00 -
[1613] - Quote
Repeated post. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3059
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:06:00 -
[1614] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: And what do you put? A Tracking Computer? You have 0.09937 of tracking, man... xD
A MWD so you can actually get on top of people (as opposed to getting kited by stations) and a real tank so you can survive the approach (as opposed to popping before you even get within blaster range). TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Shingorash
S T R A T C O M THORN Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:07:00 -
[1615] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Shingorash wrote:Fleet Sentry Domi
650 DPS at 80KM with Garde II's and 586 DPS at 130KM with Bouncer II's.
That will likely be used in fleets on a regular basis if it stays as it currently is.
Gallente ships at the moment are looking like they are going to be much more useful in fleets. It is about time they got some love really...
[Dominix, Sentry] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Heavy Energy Neutralizer II ? Large YF-12a Smartbomb ?
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Garde II x5 Bouncer II x5
Fleets move, you know. Constantly. Sentry ships that aren't carriers are losing their DPS every time they do an on-grid warp. Not viable to be completely frank. No one fights standing still.
true but with 140km range I dont see how your argument is valid
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:07:00 -
[1616] - Quote
Galileo Black wrote:Slot layout: 8H(+0), 5M, 6L(+0); 8 turrets , 1 launchers
Yes let's give it the same horrible slot layout that made it useless for years, great idea there! mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:08:00 -
[1617] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: And what do you put? A Tracking Computer? You have 0.09937 of tracking, man... xD
A MWD so you can actually get on top of people (as opposed to getting kited by stations) and a real tank so you can survive the approach (as opposed to popping before you even get within blaster range).
It's a personal matter. Scrambler in the enemy ship and you can forget the MWD. The AB works fine. And the tank... it's an attack role, not a Hyperion. BTW, now I think that with a faster ship I don't need the Tracking Enhancer, so I can put more tank. I would keep the 2 MFS and drop the TE's to put more tank, yes :) http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:15:00 -
[1618] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote: I'm not angry, I just hate baddies who for some reason don't understand that their suggestions suck. You are a spitting image of the baddies I am describing here. As for the discussion? I'ts really not worth it, if you can't see how your initial suggestion is extremely stupid then you are beyond help, do the eve community a favor by raising the mean intelligence via biomassing and quitting, thank you.
You seem pretty angry considering you're throwing insults left and right, which wouldn't be necessary if you were calm and collected. You haven't even pointed out a single reason why the suggestion is "bad". So I encourage you do display your intelligence and come up with some reasons why my suggestion is inferior, and perhaps even a suggestion of your own to balance the ship.
Askulf Joringer wrote: P.S. Your apoc/napac vs mega/vindi comparison is invalid because the vindi is a pirate faction Bs, which have 3 bonuses, navy BS have 2. You're bad and you should feel bad.
The Scorpion has 3 bonuses. There is nothing static about how many bonuses a ship is allowed to have, the only thing that should matter when applying stats and bonuses is balance.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:16:00 -
[1619] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Scrambler in the enemy ship and you can forget the MWD.
If you get bubbled and you have an AB on a BS, you can forget the ship! mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3059
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:16:00 -
[1620] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: And what do you put? A Tracking Computer? You have 0.09937 of tracking, man... xD
A MWD so you can actually get on top of people (as opposed to getting kited by stations) and a real tank so you can survive the approach (as opposed to popping before you even get within blaster range). It's a personal matter. Scrambler in the enemy ship and you can forget the MWD. The AB works fine. And the tank... it's an attack role, not a Hyperion. BTW, now I think that with a faster ship I don't need the Tracking Enhancer, so I can put more tank. I would keep the 2 MFS and drop the TE's to put more tank, yes :)
By the time you're in scrambler range, you don't need the MWD anymore.
Here's how 99% of fights would go down with your fit:
"Oh **** its a megathron! Quick start flying the other way and shooting at it."
"Huh. It's only moving at 300 m/s. Well, he's never going to get within range."
"Oh wow. He has a **** tank too. It's been 30 seconds and he's halfway dead."
"Heh, that was easy and strangely unsatisfying. 1 killmail and it cost me 0 shield HP!" TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
kyrieee
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:19:00 -
[1621] - Quote
I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:20:00 -
[1622] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
By the time you're in scrambler range, you don't need the MWD anymore.
Seen this way... OK, will put the MWD. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:21:00 -
[1623] - Quote
kyrieee wrote:I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else.
it's only acceptable on throwaway daredevils c/d mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:22:00 -
[1624] - Quote
[Megathron, Improved] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
0.08707 of tracking. Seems enough to me. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:22:00 -
[1625] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:[Megathron, Pure-Brawler] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
1019 DPS at 8,8 km with 0.09937 of tracking. And you can even have another low slot (don't know if more buffer or other EANM). 63037 of EHP, but it's attack role, not combat role. THIS is the right way :)
I'm not so sure you can count CCP Rise wrote: Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
I really don't want to do all the math for you either...
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:23:00 -
[1626] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:[Megathron, Improved] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
0.08707 of tracking. Seems enough to me.
Uh what?
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?11380-Odyssey-Changes-Rebalanced-Navy-Cruisers-T1-Cruisers-(and-EFT-files) mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
TheHenni
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:25:00 -
[1627] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: And what do you put? A Tracking Computer? You have 0.09937 of tracking, man... xD
A MWD so you can actually get on top of people (as opposed to getting kited by stations) and a real tank so you can survive the approach (as opposed to popping before you even get within blaster range). It's a personal matter. Scrambler in the enemy ship and you can forget the MWD. The AB works fine. And the tank... it's an attack role, not a Hyperion. BTW, now I think that with a faster ship I don't need the Tracking Enhancer, so I can put more tank. I would keep the 2 MFS and drop the TE's to put more tank, yes :) This is hopefully a bad troll char. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:27:00 -
[1628] - Quote
TheHenni wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: And what do you put? A Tracking Computer? You have 0.09937 of tracking, man... xD
A MWD so you can actually get on top of people (as opposed to getting kited by stations) and a real tank so you can survive the approach (as opposed to popping before you even get within blaster range). It's a personal matter. Scrambler in the enemy ship and you can forget the MWD. The AB works fine. And the tank... it's an attack role, not a Hyperion. BTW, now I think that with a faster ship I don't need the Tracking Enhancer, so I can put more tank. I would keep the 2 MFS and drop the TE's to put more tank, yes :) This is hopefully a bad troll char.
I'm not a troll. You can see my skills. Not a 1 month ago char in a NPC Corp. It's only that I always used to think in hybrids as the worst gun system that I fitted that AB. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
kyrieee
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:29:00 -
[1629] - Quote
Andski wrote:kyrieee wrote:I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else. it's only acceptable on throwaway daredevils c/d
Because Frigates have exactly what to do with Battleship balance? Frigates aren't heavy tacklers, which is where the web strength bonus is an issue. It's strong enough of a bonus that people field 1.5bn hulls just to get it. This is not even a discussion. |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:33:00 -
[1630] - Quote
please remodel the domi it looks aweful for a drone carrier |
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3059
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:33:00 -
[1631] - Quote
kyrieee wrote:Andski wrote:kyrieee wrote:I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else. it's only acceptable on throwaway daredevils c/d Because Frigates have exactly what to do with Battleship balance? Frigates aren't heavy tacklers, which is where the web strength bonus is an issue. It's strong enough of a bonus that people field 1.5bn hulls just to get it. This is not even a discussion.
You need this. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:43:00 -
[1632] - Quote
[Megathron, PVP] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Auto-Gain Control Tracking Enhancer I Damage Control II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Due to CPU issues we need to put a Tracking Enhancer in the lows. 0,0929 of tracking and 7.2 + 7.2 of range. 71269 EHP. 1082 DPS without drones. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:46:00 -
[1633] - Quote
kyrieee wrote:I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else.
No need for apologies, just here to have some good debate.
On the web bonus topic, the bonus would at max level bring the web strength back to the original 90%. This would allow the Mega the ability to keep the target locked down and being able to properly apply dps by making tracking easier.
I'm not sure how that extra 30% to a single targeted ship would completely upset the game balance. If you could get into more details why that would cause a complete game imbalance, I'd be happy to give it a second thought. Personally I think there is no single bonus that could be considered the best as all fights in eve are situational. There a lot of great b onuses such as, EW strength, neutralizer range, warp disruptor range, etc.
Also I'm curious as to why you feel the web would have more of an impact everywhere else over null sec. An explanation here would be appreciated!
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3059
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:51:00 -
[1634] - Quote
[Megathron, Blaster] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
That is how you make a blaster Mega if you really want to. 1047 DPS before drones, 127k EHP. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:55:00 -
[1635] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:[Megathron, Blaster] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I That is how you make a blaster Mega if you really want to. 1047 DPS before drones, 127k EHP.
And then we come back to the issue of the damage applied effectively. I was talking about kiting with the second most faster ship. With that fitting you lose Megas. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
fukier
919
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:57:00 -
[1636] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:[Megathron, Blaster] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I That is how you make a blaster Mega if you really want to. 1047 DPS before drones, 127k EHP.
edit never mind forgot they took away the utility high slot At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
kyrieee
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:58:00 -
[1637] - Quote
Grendell wrote:On the web bonus topic, the bonus would at max level bring the web strength back to the original 90%. This would allow the Mega the ability to keep the target locked down and being able to properly apply dps by making tracking easier.
I'm not sure how that extra 30% to a single targeted ship would completely upset the game balance. If you could get into more details why that would cause a complete game imbalance, I'd be happy to give it a second thought. Personally I think there is no single bonus that could be considered the best as all fights in eve are situational. There a lot of great b onuses such as, EW strength, neutralizer range, warp disruptor range, etc.
Also I'm curious as to why you feel the web would have more of an impact everywhere else over null sec. An explanation here would be appreciated!
Because two 90% webs brings any ship down to 2% of its speed, whereas two 60% webs brings it to 20% of its speed. They're ten times more effective, not 30% more. The issue with them is that when applying enough of them you can effectively make any ship stationary which breaks the tracking formula. In combination with target painters it means that tracking dreads can alpha even sig tanking Cruisers, like Guardians. It's a very powerful doctrine. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3060
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:58:00 -
[1638] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: And then we come back to the issue of the damage applied effectively. I was talking about kiting with the second most faster ship. With that fitting you lose Megas. Think in the falloff of the projectiles and the lasers and then think in having the same EHP that those... you won't do so much damage as they.
Kiting with blasters is like swordfighting with bayonets. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3060
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:58:00 -
[1639] - Quote
fukier wrote: not enough pg left for a nuet?
7 highslots. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
fukier
919
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:59:00 -
[1640] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:fukier wrote: not enough pg left for a nuet?
7 highslots.
yeah... i got that mixed up... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
638
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:00:00 -
[1641] - Quote
NVM, comment I responded to was edited |
fukier
919
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:01:00 -
[1642] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:[Megathron, Blaster] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I That is how you make a blaster Mega if you really want to. 1047 DPS before drones, 127k EHP.
i like the fit... though i usually tend to fill in the ex resistance hole with either a rig or drop the 3rd mag stab for a hardner... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Galileo Black
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:01:00 -
[1643] - Quote
Galileo Black wrote: Hyperion:
Here's the FIXED Hyperion. The FIXED Hyperion keeps its 8 turrets, exchanged 5% damage for 5% RoF, and keeps its armor repair bonus. It also gains a heavy drone in both bandwidth and bay. The name of the game here is gross and inefficient. More guns need more cap, the rate of fire bonus only extenuates that, but this gains a substantial amount of DPS.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Rate of Fire +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 8H(+0), 5M, 6L(+0); 8 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 17000 PWG(+1250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8250 (+250) / 8000 (-500) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7500 (+300) / 1250s / 6 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 125(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 24 (+1) Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 490 (+5)
Megathron:
Moving to a more attack role, the Megathron gains a 10% damage bonus to 6 turrets, added mobility, and keeps the utility high. Loses some EHP, and a drone.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Damage +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 13500(-2000) PWG, 575 CPU(+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5625(+0) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 100(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Basically, hyperion becomes slow, tanky, dps powerhouse. mega becomes quick, utility, efficiend dps projector w/ tracking bonus and possible shield tank. It is not an amarr ship, it doesn't get 8 lows. I win. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3060
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:04:00 -
[1644] - Quote
fukier wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:[Megathron, Blaster] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I That is how you make a blaster Mega if you really want to. 1047 DPS before drones, 127k EHP. i like the fit... though i usually tend to fill in the ex resistance hole with either a rig or drop the 3rd mag stab for a hardner...
I wouldn't fly it like that, but the guy I was showing it to was making 1k DPS setups.
Personally, I'd give it a balanced 5 low + DC tank. Treat it like a fleet tank, because those tanks are beefy as hell and have a good resist profile. Blasters give it enough CPU to actually do that.
The sad thing is the fleet setups don't Rails eat up all that CPU, and force you to use ANPs, which are impossible to overheat and slot inefficient. If the Mega had 600 base CPU it would be an extremely competitive fleet ship. Right now it is competitive in every realm but tank. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:06:00 -
[1645] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: And then we come back to the issue of the damage applied effectively. I was talking about kiting with the second most faster ship. With that fitting you lose Megas. Think in the falloff of the projectiles and the lasers and then think in having the same EHP that those... you won't do so much damage as they.
Kiting with blasters is like swordfighting with bayonets.
They are the most powerful (in raw DPS) guns, at the counter of pitty falloff. If you don't follow this doctrine to kite in the optimal, the other guns will outperform you. This is the way it should be. That has been the reason why all the people say "Fix the hybrids!". And now that we have a speed bonus won't waste it to be a copy of other gun systems. It's my opinnion. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:07:00 -
[1646] - Quote
Grendell wrote:kyrieee wrote:I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else. No need for apologies, just here to have some good debate. On the web bonus topic, the bonus would at max level bring the web strength back to the original 90%. This would allow the Mega the ability to keep the target locked down and being able to properly apply dps by making tracking easier. I'm not sure how that extra 30% to a single targeted ship would completely upset the game balance. If you could get into more details why that would cause a complete game imbalance, I'd be happy to give it a second thought. Personally I think there is no single bonus that could be considered the best as all fights in eve are situational. There a lot of great b onuses such as, EW strength, neutralizer range, warp disruptor range, etc. Also I'm curious as to why you feel the web would have more of an impact everywhere else over null sec. An explanation here would be appreciated!
I would rarther say 10% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:08:00 -
[1647] - Quote
kyrieee wrote:Grendell wrote:On the web bonus topic, the bonus would at max level bring the web strength back to the original 90%. This would allow the Mega the ability to keep the target locked down and being able to properly apply dps by making tracking easier.
I'm not sure how that extra 30% to a single targeted ship would completely upset the game balance. If you could get into more details why that would cause a complete game imbalance, I'd be happy to give it a second thought. Personally I think there is no single bonus that could be considered the best as all fights in eve are situational. There a lot of great b onuses such as, EW strength, neutralizer range, warp disruptor range, etc.
Also I'm curious as to why you feel the web would have more of an impact everywhere else over null sec. An explanation here would be appreciated! Because two 90% webs brings any ship down to 2% of its speed, whereas two 60% webs brings it to 20% of its speed. They're ten times more effective, not 30% more. The issue with them is that when applying enough of them you can effectively make any ship stationary which breaks the tracking formula. In combination with target painters it means that tracking dreads can alpha even sig tanking Cruisers, like Guardians. It's a very powerful doctrine.
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding, but my web bonus was meant only for the Mega, not dreads.
|
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
675
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:08:00 -
[1648] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Grendell wrote:kyrieee wrote:I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else. No need for apologies, just here to have some good debate. On the web bonus topic, the bonus would at max level bring the web strength back to the original 90%. This would allow the Mega the ability to keep the target locked down and being able to properly apply dps by making tracking easier. I'm not sure how that extra 30% to a single targeted ship would completely upset the game balance. If you could get into more details why that would cause a complete game imbalance, I'd be happy to give it a second thought. Personally I think there is no single bonus that could be considered the best as all fights in eve are situational. There a lot of great b onuses such as, EW strength, neutralizer range, warp disruptor range, etc. Also I'm curious as to why you feel the web would have more of an impact everywhere else over null sec. An explanation here would be appreciated! I would rarther say 10% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level
That's also a good option. I think more so for the scrambler than the disruptor though.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3060
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:10:00 -
[1649] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: They are the most powerful (in raw DPS) guns, at the counter of pitty falloff. If you don't follow this doctrine to kite in the optimal, the other guns will outperform you. This is the way it should be. That has been the reason why all the people say "Fix the hybrids!". And now that we have a speed bonus won't waste it to be a copy of other gun systems. It's my opinnion.
Here's the thing about blasters. In your optimal, you're doing 100% of your DPS, and your opponent is doing something like 75% because his tracking isn't balanced around your optimal.
When you kite, you go farther out. The farther out you go, the lower your effective DPS becomes, and the higher his does. You are literally helping your enemy by trying to kite in a blaster ship. Nothing has shorter range than you, meaning your only goal is to keep range to an absolute minimum, maximizing your advantage.
The only ships that kite with blasters have 50% optimal bonuses and run Null, kiting smaller blaster boats specifically. It is extremely niche, and does not work on anything but the Naga and Rokh, specifically when shooting at things using medium blasters or similar. For the other 99% of EVE, and even those two ships in the other 90% of situations, it is a dumb idea. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:13:00 -
[1650] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: And then we come back to the issue of the damage applied effectively. I was talking about kiting with the second most faster ship. With that fitting you lose Megas. Think in the falloff of the projectiles and the lasers and then think in having the same EHP that those... you won't do so much damage as they.
Kiting with blasters is like swordfighting with bayonets.
Blasters |
|
fukier
919
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:18:00 -
[1651] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:fukier wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:[Megathron, Blaster] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I That is how you make a blaster Mega if you really want to. 1047 DPS before drones, 127k EHP. i like the fit... though i usually tend to fill in the ex resistance hole with either a rig or drop the 3rd mag stab for a hardner... I wouldn't fly it like that, but the guy I was showing it to was making 1k DPS setups. Personally, I'd give it a balanced 5 low + DC tank. Treat it like a fleet tank, because those tanks are beefy as hell and have a good resist profile. Blasters give it enough CPU to actually do that. The sad thing is the fleet setup's rails eat up all that CPU, and force you to use ANPs, which are impossible to overheat and slot inefficient. If the Mega had 600 base CPU it would be an extremely competitive fleet ship. Right now it is competitive in every realm but tank.
how about a co-precessor... will that give you enough for the 425s? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:18:00 -
[1652] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: They are the most powerful (in raw DPS) guns, at the counter of pitty falloff. If you don't follow this doctrine to kite in the optimal, the other guns will outperform you. This is the way it should be. That has been the reason why all the people say "Fix the hybrids!". And now that we have a speed bonus won't waste it to be a copy of other gun systems. It's my opinnion.
Here's the thing about blasters. In your optimal, you're doing 100% of your DPS, and your opponent is doing something like 75% because his tracking isn't balanced around your optimal. When you kite, you go farther out. The farther out you go, the lower your effective DPS becomes, and the higher his does. You are literally helping your enemy by trying to kite in a blaster ship. Nothing has shorter range than you, meaning your only goal is to keep range to an absolute minimum, maximizing your advantage. The only ships that kite with blasters have 50% optimal bonuses and run Null, kiting smaller blaster boats specifically. It is extremely niche, and does not work on anything but the Naga and Rokh, specifically when shooting at things using medium blasters or similar. For the other 99% of EVE, and even those two ships in the other 90% of situations, it is a dumb idea.
I hope you will see my point with this comparison:
Neutron Blaster Cannon II:
Optimal: 7,2 km Falloff: 10 km Damage: 4,41x
Mega Pulse Laser II:
Optimal: 24km Falloff: 8km Damage: 3,6x
800mm Repeating Artillery II:
Optimal: 4,8 km Falloff: 19,2 km Damage: 3,234x
Kiting at 7,2 km will put like... 36% more damage that the projectile. Maybe 30% with the falloff bonus of the projectile as not in optimal. Being at 500m of the projectile ship will have an issue with your tracking, even with all this uber-tracking. And again, he will kite and put more damage than you with your pitty falloff. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7434
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:19:00 -
[1653] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:I wouldn't fly it like that, but the guy I was showing it to was making 1k DPS setups.
Personally, I'd give it a balanced 5 low + DC tank. Treat it like a fleet tank, because those tanks are beefy as hell and have a good resist profile. Blasters give it enough CPU to actually do that.
The sad thing is the fleet setup's rails eat up all that CPU, and force you to use ANPs, which are impossible to overheat and slot inefficient. If the Mega had 600 base CPU it would be an extremely competitive fleet ship. Right now it is competitive in every realm but tank.
So why would you want to fly a fleet rail mega when the Hyperion will fill that role perfectly fine?
See: http://i.imgur.com/ybjuixD.jpg mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3060
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:21:00 -
[1654] - Quote
fukier wrote: how about a co-precessor... will that give you enough for the 425s?
At the cost of a low, making it a moot point - it either loses the DPS profile that makes it competitive, or loses a tank slot and ends up losing tank. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:22:00 -
[1655] - Quote
Grendell wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:Grendell wrote:kyrieee wrote:I'm sorry Grendell but the web strength bonus is the most powerful bonus in the entire game (aside from links), giving it to an insurable T1 BS would completely upset the game balance. Perhaps not in nullsec, but certainly everywhere else. No need for apologies, just here to have some good debate. On the web bonus topic, the bonus would at max level bring the web strength back to the original 90%. This would allow the Mega the ability to keep the target locked down and being able to properly apply dps by making tracking easier. I'm not sure how that extra 30% to a single targeted ship would completely upset the game balance. If you could get into more details why that would cause a complete game imbalance, I'd be happy to give it a second thought. Personally I think there is no single bonus that could be considered the best as all fights in eve are situational. There a lot of great b onuses such as, EW strength, neutralizer range, warp disruptor range, etc. Also I'm curious as to why you feel the web would have more of an impact everywhere else over null sec. An explanation here would be appreciated! I would rarther say 10% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level That's also a good option. I think more so for the scrambler than the disruptor though.
Its just half the Arazu bonus as it would help the mega hold onto what its shooting |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3060
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:24:00 -
[1656] - Quote
Andski wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:I wouldn't fly it like that, but the guy I was showing it to was making 1k DPS setups.
Personally, I'd give it a balanced 5 low + DC tank. Treat it like a fleet tank, because those tanks are beefy as hell and have a good resist profile. Blasters give it enough CPU to actually do that.
The sad thing is the fleet setup's rails eat up all that CPU, and force you to use ANPs, which are impossible to overheat and slot inefficient. If the Mega had 600 base CPU it would be an extremely competitive fleet ship. Right now it is competitive in every realm but tank. So why would you want to fly a fleet rail mega when the Hyperion will fill that role perfectly fine? See: http://i.imgur.com/ybjuixD.jpg
That actually has an inferior tank and raw DPS at shorter mid ranges than the mega fit I was toying with:
http://i.imgur.com/R1WRKTe.jpg
Though its dual tracking does give it better damage application at longer ranges. Its a tradeoff there. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:29:00 -
[1657] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:[Megathron, Blaster] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I That is how you make a blaster Mega if you really want to. 1047 DPS before drones, 127k EHP.
This tracks the way low sec megas usually get fit these days. But the new problem we have with the current iteration is that we get the same amount of tank we had before, but we have to have that third mag stab just to get to the dps levels of the current mega because of the drone bay nerf, all the while sacrificing that extra high slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. So really we aren't getting anything new, we're just losing that utility that made the mega actually sometimes worth choosing over a baddon or rokh or whatever other brawling BS you want to use. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3061
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:33:00 -
[1658] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote: This tracks the way low sec megas usually get fit these days. But the new problem we have with the current iteration is that we get the same amount of tank we had before, but we have to have that third mag stab just to get to the dps levels of the current mega because of the drone bay nerf, all the while sacrificing that extra high slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. So really we aren't getting anything new, we're just losing that utility that made the mega actually sometimes worth choosing over a baddon or rokh or whatever other brawling BS you want to use.
That's the thing - you can now supertank it in a brawl if you want to, fit it for a larger damage envelope in gangs, give it a real resist profile, or even build it competitively for fleets.
It gained so much, and lost so little. The fact it can still do the one dimensional blaster brawler fit while opening up all these new paths is a huge boost, and there is still a blaster brawler with a utility high - which can either fit a real buffer tank or even go triple rep active.
Gallente gained far, far more options than they ever had before. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:34:00 -
[1659] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:
This tracks the way low sec megas usually get fit these days. But the new problem we have with the current iteration is that we get the same amount of tank we had before, but we have to have that third mag stab just to get to the dps levels of the current mega because of the drone bay nerf, all the while sacrificing that extra high slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. So really we aren't getting anything new, we're just losing that utility that made the mega actually sometimes worth choosing over a baddon or rokh or whatever other brawling BS you want to use.
That's the point. If the megas work right now they wouldn't be needed to rebalance them. And the issue is that, right now, they don't work. We need speed bonus and change the philosophy to adapt to it. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Capn Jack
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:42:00 -
[1660] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.
We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.
Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.
Try this on for size... let us use the AAR's More like Shield tankers use ASB's maybe then we can actually fit a decent Active Tank to the ship Gallente ships... EG no cap use, and fit more than one module to the ship... add to this a increase of the ammount of Nanite repair pastes created by doubling the ammount from 10 to 20 could perhaps put the active armor tanked ships more in line... |
|
Capn Jack
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 20:57:00 -
[1661] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.
Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.
I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.
I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.
One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.
Since the damage application of Drones is no where near as capable as that of a turreted ship (MWD fly time of drones back and forth/vs being stuck standing still with Sentries, and still having to pull them in, every now and then) topped off with the need to field Drone Link Interfaces for sentries to be able to fire out far enough... How about looking at letting the Dominix have the ability to field an additional drone as a role bonus? and upping the Armageddons Drone bay to 400 or 425 if you want the same progression of both the ships...
Or Perhaps adding a Role Bonus to Drone Control Range to these dedicated drone boats? |
Wolfe Malar
Lone Wolves of Malar
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:10:00 -
[1662] - Quote
Gallente:
Hyperion -In the combat turret line as expected. -Would like it if high slot layout is kept consistent with the other combat turret line. -Would like a missile hardpoint or two in order to allow the use of defenders. -Would like a 100 bandwidth b/c itGÇÖs not a drone boat but is Gallente.
Megathron -In the attack turret line as expected. -Currently the attack turret line is all over the place on high slot layout. Not bad per say, but if so each needs to have something special. Would prefer if the number of turret and utility slots across the line were consistent. -Would like a missile hardpoint or two in order to allow the use of defenders. -Would like a 100 bandwidth b/c itGÇÖs not a drone boat but is Gallente.
Dominix -In combat alt (drone) line, coin flip. The ship would be fit in well if put into either the combat or attack line. -High slot layout is okay since the other combat drone boat has an energy warfare bonus at the moment, though a utility slot would be nice. -Drone boat is drone boat :P -Would like a missile hardpoint or two in order to allow the use of defenders.
I have expressed my thoughts on the overall battleship design in the "Introducing Myself....." thread and it contains more detailed reasons for my comments on the specific ships above:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2871021#post2871021 |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
566
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:29:00 -
[1663] - Quote
Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because, as of now, there is no way to repaid damaged drones in your drone bay without docking or getting rr-s out. Drones are their life and so a bigger drone bay is required. CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:51:00 -
[1664] - Quote
Wolfe Malar wrote:Gallente: -Would like a missile hardpoint or two in order to allow the use of defenders.
Use what? i dont know what are you talking about :)
Anyone know what is "defenders" mean?
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
854
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:53:00 -
[1665] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because, as of now, there is no way to repaid damaged drones in your drone bay without docking or getting rr-s out. Drones are their life and so a bigger drone bay is required. The Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because the Armageddon got the same amount of bandwidth, making the drone based DPS of the two ships identical.
Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:53:00 -
[1666] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Wolfe Malar wrote:Gallente: -Would like a missile hardpoint or two in order to allow the use of defenders.
Use what? i dont know what are you talking about :) Anyone know what is "defenders" mean?
I see what you did there... http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/302/195/2e0.jpg
The missiles have lower DPS. I approve this message. We don't need defenders. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Wolfe Malar
Lone Wolves of Malar
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:12:00 -
[1667] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Wolfe Malar wrote:Gallente: -Would like a missile hardpoint or two in order to allow the use of defenders.
Use what? i dont know what are you talking about :) Anyone know what is "defenders" mean? I see what you did there... http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/302/195/2e0.jpgThe missiles have lower DPS. I approve this message. We don't need defenders.
Then what is the purpose of putting only 1-2 missile hardpoints on a ship at all? Serious question. I understand defenders are considered bad atm. However, what is the point of even having that few missile hardpoints then? It doesn't make sense to replace turrets or fill utility highs with a launcher or two for dps? Hyperion with one torp launcher? Defenders are currently probably not the best use for the slot, but if the launcher slots are not for defenders then what is their purpose? Please inform me i really would like to know. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7436
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:15:00 -
[1668] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because, as of now, there is no way to repaid damaged drones in your drone bay without docking or getting rr-s out. Drones are their life and so a bigger drone bay is required.
375 m3 is enough for three full flights of sentries
what mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:20:00 -
[1669] - Quote
Wolfe Malar wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Wolfe Malar wrote:Gallente: -Would like a missile hardpoint or two in order to allow the use of defenders.
Use what? i dont know what are you talking about :) Anyone know what is "defenders" mean? I see what you did there... http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/302/195/2e0.jpgThe missiles have lower DPS. I approve this message. We don't need defenders. Then what is the purpose of putting only 1-2 missile hardpoints on a ship at all? Serious question. I understand defenders are considered bad atm. However, what is the point of even having that few missile hardpoints then? It doesn't make sense to replace turrets or fill utility highs with a launcher or two for dps? Hyperion with one torp launcher? Defenders are currently probably not the best use for the slot, but if the launcher slots are not for defenders then what is their purpose? Please inform me i really would like to know.
Ok. Will adapt my answer. Defenders are for sniper setups, like the Rokh. The Gallente (or at least the Mega, the Hype can be another matter) boats were not made to fit defenders, as they are more adapted to short-range fittings. Even having a missile boat hitting you so near (your optimal), you will deal more damage than him. And the approach to fit Rage Torpedoes need added modules that low his tank. That's the reason why you don't need defenders in the Mega. The other two can be put in consideration, but not the Mega. EDIT: And, in addition, as you have said, "are considered bad atm", as his performance is ridiculous. When they fix them, maybe. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Ninavask
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:46:00 -
[1670] - Quote
To Elaborate on my complaints from earlier.
The way I see it the Hyperion should be the dedicated gunship, the Megathron should be the middle ground between gunship and drone boat, with a bit of a leaning towards guns.
The Hyperion should be less durable then the mega and dominix but capable of dishing out intense amounts of pain with eight guns, both usable as a blaster and as a sniper platform. Think a battleship that acts like a heavier battlecruiser.
The Megathron should have the thick tank, but good DPS of a mainstay battleship. Jack of most trades you could say. Able to take the damage and dish it right back out. Dr. Ninavask Revan CEO - Commander The Synenose Accord Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated. |
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Wolfe Malar
Lone Wolves of Malar
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:48:00 -
[1671] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: *snip*
Ok. Will adapt my answer. Defenders are for sniper setups, like the Rokh. The Gallente (or at least the Mega, the Hype can be another matter) boats were not made to fit defenders, as they are more adapted to short-range fittings. Even having a missile boat hitting you so near (your optimal), you will deal more damage than him. And the approach to fit Rage Torpedoes need added modules that low his tank. That's the reason why you don't need defenders in the Mega. The other two can be put in consideration, but not the Mega. EDIT: And, in addition, as you have said, "are considered bad atm", as his performance is ridiculous. When they fix them, maybe.
That makes sense and is all true. I would probably never put them on close range set ups for the exact points you have made. However, I am of the opinion that the option should be there. Many ships have extra hardpoints that are far from the optimal use of the ship and almost never used. It just nice that the option exist. Often its just for the luls, but every so often they can find a use. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:55:00 -
[1672] - Quote
Wolfe Malar wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: *snip*
Ok. Will adapt my answer. Defenders are for sniper setups, like the Rokh. The Gallente (or at least the Mega, the Hype can be another matter) boats were not made to fit defenders, as they are more adapted to short-range fittings. Even having a missile boat hitting you so near (your optimal), you will deal more damage than him. And the approach to fit Rage Torpedoes need added modules that low his tank. That's the reason why you don't need defenders in the Mega. The other two can be put in consideration, but not the Mega. EDIT: And, in addition, as you have said, "are considered bad atm", as his performance is ridiculous. When they fix them, maybe.
That makes sense and is all true. I would probably never put them on close range set ups for the exact points you have made. However, I am of the opinion that the option should be there. Many ships have extra hardpoints that are far from the optimal use of the ship and almost never used. It just nice that the option exist. Often its just for the luls, but every so often they can find a use.
I would argue for that If I would think that the fitting changes aren't nice. But, to be honest, I think we don't need to change it from the exact point it is. If, doing combat, I see that has a lack of something that can be solved with a utility high slot (maybe for defenders, maybe for neuts/nos, maybe for drone modules), I would say it, but for the actual state of things I think not. I would keep the Mega the state it has now in the OP. To add a utility high slot would be a combat ship and not an attack ship. And that would convert it in the new overpowered BS, that leads to problems all we know. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1297
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:15:00 -
[1673] - Quote
Andski wrote:Acac Sunflyier wrote:Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because, as of now, there is no way to repaid damaged drones in your drone bay without docking or getting rr-s out. Drones are their life and so a bigger drone bay is required. 375 m3 is enough for three full flights of sentries what
A friggin Gila has a bigge drone bay.
What. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7436
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:24:00 -
[1674] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:A friggin Gila has a bigge drone bay.
What.
three full flights of sentries and a flight of warriors
what a difference mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Wolfe Malar
Lone Wolves of Malar
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:27:00 -
[1675] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: *snip*
I would argue for that If I would think that the fitting changes aren't nice. But, to be honest, I think we don't need to change it from the exact point it is. If, doing combat, I see that has a lack of something that can be solved with a utility high slot (maybe for defenders, maybe for neuts/nos, maybe for drone modules), I would say it, but for the actual state of things I think not. I would keep the Mega the state it has now in the OP. To add a utility high slot would be a combat ship and not an attack ship. And that would convert it in the new overpowered BS, that leads to problems all we know.
I'm not proposing a utility high be added to anything, just a missile hardpoint. 7 high, 7 turret, 1-2 missile, 0 utility high
Gallente currently is the only combat turret ship with a utility high (Hyperion). Other ships have a limited (not equal) set of alternate hardpoints such as the Rohk which has no utility slots, and the Typhoon and Tempest which are attack ships. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:27:00 -
[1676] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote: This tracks the way low sec megas usually get fit these days. But the new problem we have with the current iteration is that we get the same amount of tank we had before, but we have to have that third mag stab just to get to the dps levels of the current mega because of the drone bay nerf, all the while sacrificing that extra high slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. So really we aren't getting anything new, we're just losing that utility that made the mega actually sometimes worth choosing over a baddon or rokh or whatever other brawling BS you want to use.
That's the thing - you can now supertank it in a brawl if you want to, fit it for a larger damage envelope in gangs, give it a real resist profile, or even build it competitively for fleets. It gained so much, and lost so little. The fact it can still do the one dimensional blaster brawler fit while opening up all these new paths is a huge boost, and there is still a blaster brawler with a utility high - which can either fit a real buffer tank or even go triple rep active. Gallente gained far, far more options than they ever had before.
Well no, not really. If we already have to use a mag stab to get it to the same dps that we have on the 7 low slot version now, then we would have about as much dps on the current mega if we simply used 1 mag stab and used the other slot for more resists. It loses too much in dps to make up for this new low slot, which will only be used to bring it back up to par with the current version, but without the utility high to help it. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:36:00 -
[1677] - Quote
Wolfe Malar wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: *snip*
I would argue for that If I would think that the fitting changes aren't nice. But, to be honest, I think we don't need to change it from the exact point it is. If, doing combat, I see that has a lack of something that can be solved with a utility high slot (maybe for defenders, maybe for neuts/nos, maybe for drone modules), I would say it, but for the actual state of things I think not. I would keep the Mega the state it has now in the OP. To add a utility high slot would be a combat ship and not an attack ship. And that would convert it in the new overpowered BS, that leads to problems all we know.
I'm not proposing a utility high be added to anything, just a missile hardpoint. 7 high, 7 turret, 1-2 missile, 0 utility high Gallente currently is the only combat turret ship with a utility high (Hyperion). Other ships have a limited (not equal) set of alternate hardpoints such as the Rohk which has no utility slots, and the Typhoon and Tempest which are attack ships.
See the next post to yours. We have problems to deal more damage than before (I don't agree with that as now we will have more effective dmg than before with the speed boost) and you are talking about drop one hybrid (or 2) to fit defenders. I think that it's not the matter. For that reason the Hyperion can fit 1 launcher (combat, so utility, and a defender slot is a utility slot, and not a DPS slot) and the Mega not (attack role). The matter that other combat / attack races can fit launchers it's not mandatory to say that the Mega also need 1-2 slots. And the Dominix is made to be versatile. In other case, should be a situation to think if the other attack ships for the other races need a defender launcher slot, but not to say that the Mega need them. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:47:00 -
[1678] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Acac Sunflyier wrote:Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because, as of now, there is no way to repaid damaged drones in your drone bay without docking or getting rr-s out. Drones are their life and so a bigger drone bay is required. The Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because the Armageddon got the same amount of bandwidth, making the drone based DPS of the two ships identical.
Well since the amarr iconic 8 low slots have been givin to the gallente might as well give the amarr's iconic 'always bigger drone bay not bandwidth' to the gallente to so they have both the 8 lows and the larger drone bay.
GG |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:54:00 -
[1679] - Quote
the hyperion with 6 5 8 and a falloff bonus would be a much better fleet ship then the mega that wastes its speed and has less base hp then the hyperion with a 20% falloff bonus it could use blasters in big fights it would need a small speed nerf to not make it too powerful in a shield fit
the dominix would make a much better bearer of the repair bonus since it has the utility highs to support it in the kind of fights the repair bonus is most effective the drone tracking+range bonus is quite weak on its own and should be rolled into the drone damage bonus to make it more distinct from the droneddon
the megathron is just fine as it is as fast attack battleship and there is no reason to force it into the combat role after it got its speed buffed the spare high it works just fine solo as well as in fleets (contrary to popular belie the heavy neut is not as useless, it can very well tip over active tanked ships and win the chase against an equally fast ship also caping out tacklers to Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
322
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:16:00 -
[1680] - Quote
Hahahahahahaha, Defender missiles. So funny. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3362
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:22:00 -
[1681] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Hahahahahahaha, Defender missiles. So funny. Yeah I can't believe he wants that lone worthless missile hard point so he can use even more worthless defender missiles.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:30:00 -
[1682] - Quote
If you want to make heavies more viable on the Dominix, maybe give it a (drone) MWD speed bonus as well? Otherwise it seems like you're just making it specifically a sentry boat.
[edit: The Algos gets one!] |
Wolfe Malar
Lone Wolves of Malar
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:41:00 -
[1683] - Quote
Having limited alternative hardpoints on all the ships would be nice, and give options. But, I understand if its impractical in some cases. Its just hard to follow the ship lines and racial preferences with half the ships following patterns and the others with notable exceptions that are so specific ship base. I would have imagined that the ship lines would mean that all the ships in that line would follow a similar set up and each within it would be slightly different according to race.
Example:
Combat turret ships have a 8 high, 8 turret, 0 utility high layout. Attack turret ships have 7 high, 6 turret, 1 utility high. Attack missile ships have 7 high 6 turret, 1 utility high The differences would come from mid and low slot layout, ship base stats, and the per level bonuses.
Depending on weapon type the ships would get something extra based on race. Also note a x hardpoint is not a slot but limits how many slots you can fill up with x type module.
Gallente/Amarr non-drone ships get an extra drone over Caldari/Minmatar ships and a single missile hardpoint for defenders. Minmatar/Caldari ships get a limited set of alternative weapon hardpoints. Raven/Typhoon get 4 turrets hardpoints while Rokh/Maelstrom get 4 missile hardpoints. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
114
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:52:00 -
[1684] - Quote
Drop heavy drones to 20 bandwidth, and Armageddon (and any other 125 bandwidth t1 ships) to 100 bandwidth. Adjust their size if you want too.
Gallente maintain their role as most flexable drone ships with less bay, Amarr can have a bigger bay without outshining Gallente ships.
Some 15 Bandwidth & Size Medium Sentries would be great too, allowing 75 bandwidth boats a new option.
Of course all of the above is more of a drone topic than a Gallente Hull topic, but the 2 are fairly closely linked. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
559
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:52:00 -
[1685] - Quote
Capn Jack wrote:Since the damage application of Drones is no where near as capable as that of a turreted ship (MWD fly time of drones back and forth/vs being stuck standing still with Sentries, and still having to pull them in, every now and then) topped off with the need to field Drone Link Interfaces for sentries to be able to fire out far enough
This is false, especially on a ship like the Dominix.
For starters, it has enough mid slots to run a Drone Navigation Computer or two if you wish. You'll find that one will greatly increase your damage over time to ships that aren't exactly in hugging range.
Secondly, DLAs are only really needed for sniping, and in the context of drones, you're asking for close range cost with long range performance. If you want to snipe, you run some DLA with an OTL or two. If you want to be in the thick of it, a DNC is clearly the better option. Not to mention that different drones have different speeds, and Ogres are just slow regardless
Within its maximum sentry sniping range (~200-220km), the Dominix has absolutely ridiculous performance without using turrets. -áwww.promsrage.com |
Wolfe Malar
Lone Wolves of Malar
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:59:00 -
[1686] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:Hahahahahahaha, Defender missiles. So funny. Yeah I can't believe he wants that lone worthless missile hard point so he can use even more worthless defender missiles.
Last time I looked this was about balancing. Even though things may be broken now, I think I wise to at lease consider them in the current iteration. They are a high slot utility module and should be accessible, just like a smartbomb, neut, remote rep, etc. They will either be balanced, removed, or disregarded (in which case they should be removed).
If they are getting removed, then I would say get rid of all missile hardpoints that only serve a utility purpose like the current one on the Hyperion. Edit: This is also the case if defenders are not meant to be placed on non-missile ships or in this class. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3362
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 01:06:00 -
[1687] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Capn Jack wrote:Since the damage application of Drones is no where near as capable as that of a turreted ship (MWD fly time of drones back and forth/vs being stuck standing still with Sentries, and still having to pull them in, every now and then) topped off with the need to field Drone Link Interfaces for sentries to be able to fire out far enough This is false, especially on a ship like the Dominix. For starters, it has enough mid slots to run a Drone Navigation Computer or two if you wish. You'll find that one will greatly increase your damage over time to ships that aren't exactly in hugging range. Secondly, DLAs are only really needed for sniping, and in the context of drones, you're asking for close range cost with long range performance. If you want to snipe, you run some DLA with an OTL or two. If you want to be in the thick of it, a DNC is clearly the better option. Not to mention that different drones have different speeds, and Ogres are just slow regardless Within its maximum sentry sniping range (~200-220km), the Dominix has absolutely ridiculous performance without using turrets. How many of those mid slots are used for sensor boosters so you can lock the target to tell them to shoot?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
855
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 02:06:00 -
[1688] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Capn Jack wrote:Since the damage application of Drones is no where near as capable as that of a turreted ship (MWD fly time of drones back and forth/vs being stuck standing still with Sentries, and still having to pull them in, every now and then) topped off with the need to field Drone Link Interfaces for sentries to be able to fire out far enough This is false, especially on a ship like the Dominix. For starters, it has enough mid slots to run a Drone Navigation Computer or two if you wish. You'll find that one will greatly increase your damage over time to ships that aren't exactly in hugging range. Secondly, DLAs are only really needed for sniping, and in the context of drones, you're asking for close range cost with long range performance. If you want to snipe, you run some DLA with an OTL or two. If you want to be in the thick of it, a DNC is clearly the better option. Not to mention that different drones have different speeds, and Ogres are just slow regardless Within its maximum sentry sniping range (~200-220km), the Dominix has absolutely ridiculous performance without using turrets. How many of those mid slots are used for sensor boosters so you can lock the target to tell them to shoot? Ok so max range sniper Dominix. [High] Drone Link Augmentor II x6 [Mids] Omnidirectional Tracking Link II x4 Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) [Lows] Signal Amplifier II x5 Drone Damage Amplifier II Internal Force Field Array [Rigs] Large Drone Contr Range Augmentor II x2 Large Drone Scope Chip II
CPU remaining is 6.2 Targeting range 233km Drone control range 244km Warden II optimal range 251320.5m DPS 415 EHP 43.8k Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Drunken Bum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 03:37:00 -
[1689] - Quote
So what the hell is up with the domi change? To me that was always the iconic Gallente ship. It had hybrids and drones. For the drone and hybrid race. The gallente drone boats have never felt like split weapon systems, not so much as the projectile/missile set ups did. This gallente ship, is gonna be fit with projectiles now. It'll make the neut domi set ups better... but whose gonna fly a neut domi when the geddon does it better? What are you guys smoking? Out of all the battleships, the domi was one of the ships that did not need changes.
So, tristan, split weps, drones and hybrids.
Algos, split weps, drones and hybrids.
Vexor, split weps, drones and hybrids.
Domi... well damn guys these ships all work too good. Lets switch it up and try something different for ***** and giggles.
Ship rebalancing was going SO great until about the battlecruiser point. You guys just run out of steam or what? |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 03:47:00 -
[1690] - Quote
domi is too ugly fix it |
|
Drunken Bum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 03:52:00 -
[1691] - Quote
androch wrote:domi is too ugly fix it Leave my potato/upside down sneaker alone! |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 03:57:00 -
[1692] - Quote
Drunken Bum wrote:So what the hell is up with the domi change? To me that was always the iconic Gallente ship. It had hybrids and drones. For the drone and hybrid race. The gallente drone boats have never felt like split weapon systems, not so much as the projectile/missile set ups did. This gallente ship, is gonna be fit with projectiles now. It'll make the neut domi set ups better... but whose gonna fly a neut domi when the geddon does it better? What are you guys smoking? Out of all the battleships, the domi was one of the ships that did not need changes.
So, tristan, split weps, drones and hybrids.
Algos, split weps, drones and hybrids.
Vexor, split weps, drones and hybrids.
Domi... well damn guys these ships all work too good. Lets switch it up and try something different for ***** and giggles.
Ship rebalancing was going SO great until about the battlecruiser point. You guys just run out of steam or what?
agreed id be fine if id would get the hypes rep bonus and the hype instead a falloff one so we get a good gal fleet ship and a big myrm but no some drone tracking and range that is only gonna be useful for friggin sentries that are only really good for gate camping and missioning and I bet everyone is gonna like sentry fleets with everyone having to pick them up after killing some random drake and then that one guy managing to leave them behind Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Celestial One
Militant Miners
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 04:12:00 -
[1693] - Quote
Maybe give the Dominix a 10km per level range increase to MEDIUM remote armor repair modules. I say medium because that would still be useful for drones and not help it be anymore of a better logistics platform which a bonus to large remote armor repairers might.
Or maybe give it a drone control range bonus of 10km per level.
I think that would make it a great pure drone boat. Also I think having sentry drones able to be recalled at a distance would be great. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 04:18:00 -
[1694] - Quote
Celestial One wrote:Maybe give the Dominix a 10km per level range increase to MEDIUM remote armor repair modules. I say medium because that would still be useful for drones and not help it be anymore of a better logistics platform which a bonus to large remote armor repairers might.
Or maybe give it a drone control range bonus of 10km per level.
I think that would make it a great pure drone boat. Also I think having sentry drones able to be recalled at a distance would be great.
I duno about a random rr bonus
but I think that they should just do a 10% to all drone stats bonus that includes drone controll range, damage,hp,speed,tracking,optimal
and give that to some of the gallente ships that work well with being a drone only ship along with a defence bonus
I still think though that 50% more drone ehp might not be enugh for a drone only ship
the gila works well due to its resist bonus and exceptional range dps for its size not so sure on a fat potato without a tank bonus that is slow Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
121
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 04:29:00 -
[1695] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:agreed id be fine if id would get the hypes rep bonus and the hype instead a falloff one so we get a good gal fleet ship and a big myrm but no some drone tracking and range that is only gonna be useful for friggin sentries that are only really good for gate camping and missioning and I bet everyone is gonna like sentry fleets with everyone having to pick them up after killing some random drake and then that one guy managing to leave them behind Eh, I'm not a big fan of the change either. Would prefer to keep my blasters. But CCP obviously have no intention of changing it - as proven by the fact that they didn't pull it back for review like they did the Hype and Mega. And to be honest, it's not a terrible change. The tracking bonus on Ogres with a close-range set-up does make the drones ALOT more effective. However, all the other BSs have improved and/or filled roles where the Domi could shine. The Hype will now be the superior choice for close-range brawling. Geddon is the choice for neuting. Rohk/Apoc still remain the better choices for long-range. So it's not that the Domi has gotten worse, it's just that the other ships have gotten so much better at their roles. Which leaves the Domi (as you pointed out) as a PvE boat or terrible sentry-sniper. Sucks, but it is what it is. Adapt and move on.
(And use your blaster Domis as much as possible before they get ruined.) |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
319
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 05:13:00 -
[1696] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Secondly, DLAs are only really needed for sniping, and in the context of drones, you're asking for close range cost with long range performance. If you want to snipe, you run some DLA with an OTL or two. If you want to be in the thick of it, a DNC is clearly the better option. Not to mention that different drones have different speeds, and Ogres are just slow regardless Within its maximum sentry sniping range (~200-220km), the Dominix has absolutely ridiculous performance without using turrets. Omnathious has already done a good job showing how wrong this statement is, so I'll approach this from a different angle.
What exactly is CCP trying to do with the domi? The reason that slowcats are being used is because of their RR abilities and their EHP, as well as being able to field an absurd number of backup drones to the point that losing drones is utterly insignificant. The domi has none of these things going for it, and compared to a turret BS what exactly does the new domi offer? What reason would people have to use it over any of the current fleet doctrines, or even in small gangs?(where it's heavily overshadowed by the new geddon)
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Replace the damage bonus with a +1 drone/level and bump up the bandwidth, or at the very least bump up the damage bonus. If you want the domi to be a "pure drone battleship" then give it the ability to do battleship damage with a "pure drone" setup. |
Drunken Bum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 05:18:00 -
[1697] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Secondly, DLAs are only really needed for sniping, and in the context of drones, you're asking for close range cost with long range performance. If you want to snipe, you run some DLA with an OTL or two. If you want to be in the thick of it, a DNC is clearly the better option. Not to mention that different drones have different speeds, and Ogres are just slow regardless Within its maximum sentry sniping range (~200-220km), the Dominix has absolutely ridiculous performance without using turrets. Omnathious has already done a good job showing how wrong this statement is, so I'll approach this from a different angle. What exactly is CCP trying to do with the domi? The reason that slowcats are being used is because of their RR abilities and their EHP, as well as being able to field an absurd number of backup drones to the point that losing drones is utterly insignificant. The domi has none of these things going for it, and compared to a turret BS what exactly does the new domi offer? What reason would people have to use it over any of the current fleet doctrines, or even in small gangs?(where it's heavily overshadowed by the new geddon) I've said it before and I'll say it again: Replace the damage bonus with a +1 drone/level and bump up the bandwidth, or at the very least bump up the damage bonus. If you want the domi to be a "pure drone battleship" then give it the ability to do battleship damage with a "pure drone" setup. While I think 10 drones from a tech 1 battleship would be OP, I agree that in its proposed form, I sure as **** wont be flying it over any other battleship.
|
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
320
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 05:24:00 -
[1698] - Quote
Drunken Bum wrote: While I think 10 drones from a tech 1 battleship would be OP, I agree that in its proposed form, I sure as **** wont be flying it over any other battleship.
You'd be looking at 1060 dps with a full set of ogres and 3 damage mods, hardly gamebreaking. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
322
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 05:26:00 -
[1699] - Quote
Wolfe Malar wrote: Last time I looked this was about balancing. Even though things may be broken now, I think I wise to at lease consider them in the current iteration. They are a high slot utility module and should be accessible, just like a smartbomb, neut, remote rep, etc. They will either be balanced, removed, or disregarded (in which case they should be removed).
If they are getting removed, then I would say get rid of all missile hardpoints that only serve a utility purpose like the current one on the Hyperion. Edit: This is also the case if defenders are not meant to be placed on non-missile ships or in this class.
Listen Wolfe, I know you want Defenders to be useful, but it just isn't going to happen. They are currently disregarded because they are terrible at what they do, hell a smartbomb would have a better effect against a swarm of missiles, than a single defender launcher. Defenders are a nice idea in theory, but to make them, anywhere near, practical would make them to OP, so it isn't going to happen any time soon. I would prefer CCP just deleted them, and try something else more practicable instead, for missile defense. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1117
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 05:56:00 -
[1700] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:
This tracks the way low sec megas usually get fit these days. But the new problem we have with the current iteration is that we get the same amount of tank we had before, but we have to have that third mag stab just to get to the dps levels of the current mega because of the drone bay nerf, all the while sacrificing that extra high slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. So really we aren't getting anything new, we're just losing that utility that made the mega actually sometimes worth choosing over a baddon or rokh or whatever other brawling BS you want to use.
^^^ This.
The "re (haha) balance", has been more about removing utility and versatility than actually balancing ships. HTFU!...for the children! |
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3236
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 06:37:00 -
[1701] - Quote
Just chiming in again to let CCP know that I love the Dominix model the way it is now. Sure, add a visible drone bay or tart it up a little if you want, but I love my giant potato of doom! Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3368
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 06:53:00 -
[1702] - Quote
The Dominix model is ****.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Eisprinzessin
Out-of-Space Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 08:28:00 -
[1703] - Quote
my opinion on the proposed changes
"NEW" hype has 6 turrets and 50% damage bonus that is 9 guns of unbonused damag the old has 8 turrets with 25% bonus that is 10 guns of unbonused damage i dont think that an aditional heavyy drone makes up for the lost damage because in pve drones are less usefull (aggro switching of the npc and constant in and out of drones) and no use in fleet fights for damage drones in small gang it might be ok
to sum it up the new one is not as good in pve and fleet pvp in small gang it might be ok
now the mega
the new has 7 turrets with 25% rof bounus that is 9,33 guns of unbonuse damage but only 75 bandwith for drones 4med 8 low sounds kind of nice but again the pure gun damage is not as good as the old hype so for pve is is not as good as gal bs now are inf fleets it has low gun dps so small gang pvp mitght be ok
the new dominix the loss of the gun damage bonus hurts pve badly drone dps iis not as good as gun dps because you have to pull the drones in and out every time they get agrro from npc sentry drones in fleet fights are uselesse because sentrys dont fire instant they always take some time to feel comfortable bevore they actually do damage god knows why that is and in fleets you dont stand still al the time you need to be able to move while shooting so the new bonus fro trcking and range is useless
to sum it up not as good as old in pve and useless in fleets so again small gang as the only possible use and in that the old one is better.
my question is whitch gallente bs can be used in fleets in the new world?? witch one for pve ??? they are all not as good as the old versions all the new ships get less dps than the old what is the reason for that?
and a funny side note the caldari battlecuiser is the strongest hybrid platform then with 10 unbonused guns of damage and a range bonus on top |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2514
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 08:53:00 -
[1704] - Quote
[Dominix, I'm LR fit pls don't warp to 0] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Large Micro Jump Drive Target Spectrum Breaker
Drone Link Augmentor II Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Garde II x5 Ogre II x5
664dps @ 78+12km 0.09389 tracking 133K EHP
1041 dps with blasters and Ogre IIs
dat tracking
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
468
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 09:37:00 -
[1705] - Quote
Eisprinzessin wrote: and a funny side note the caldari battlecuiser is the strongest hybrid platform then with 10 unbonused guns of damage and a range bonus on top
Nope. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
64
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 09:38:00 -
[1706] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:The Dominix model is ****.
which is why we love it. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 09:47:00 -
[1707] - Quote
so CCP Rise some response would be nice here and all the threads... some questions that seem popular as follows
- why does the mega get 8 lows when amarr don't when people want it to be a mid so they can shield tank it? -dominix could it have more lock range so it can actually use the full range of sentries as DLA's only add so much? -Also concern that the mega is still outclassed by the talos and even the new navy brutix has more tank any plans here? -Also battleships tank and mobility still needs to be buffed a great deal to make them worthwhile using any plans here? -Also concern about the neut range bonus on geddon and missiles on amarr ships are not wanted any plans here? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Irya Boone
TIPIAKS
222
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 10:07:00 -
[1708] - Quote
And Why One of The gallente Battleship don't have any electronics Warfare Bonus like scorpion or Armageddon ??
Why do you hate gallente so much? or is it that you don't understand it? RENAME null sec systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome. Need Black Ops be able to FIT cover ops cloaking device !!! |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2288
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 10:32:00 -
[1709] - Quote
I've deleted a few non-constructive posts from this thread. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
468
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 10:33:00 -
[1710] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I've deleted a few non-constructive posts from this thread. Can we expect any feedback anytime soon? Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
|
androch
Chillwater Ltd
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 10:41:00 -
[1711] - Quote
the domi model looks too ugly i know some people like that giant turd look but not all of us please update its appearance to look like the carrier youve turned it into |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 11:00:00 -
[1712] - Quote
androch wrote:the domi model looks too ugly i know some people like that giant turd look but not all of us please update its appearance to look like the carrier youve turned it into
I find that the Dominix shape is fine :)
And not, I'm not and alt of the other char :P http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 11:07:00 -
[1713] - Quote
CCP have you considered swapping the roles between the Hyperion and Megathron for aesthetic and symbolic reasons? The relatively sleek looking Hyperion seems much more fitting as an attack battleship, while the Megathron looks more like a lumbering behemoth that would go toe to toe with an Abbadon.
|
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 11:32:00 -
[1714] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:CCP have you considered swapping the roles between the Hyperion and Megathron for aesthetic and symbolic reasons? The relatively sleek looking Hyperion seems much more fitting as an attack battleship, while the Megathron looks more like a lumbering behemoth that would go toe to toe with an Abbadon.
An alternative:
Megathron: combat battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% tracking per level 7500 / 8000 / 8500 more capacitor, reduction in speed and agility, more CPU slot: 8/4/7, 7 turrets dronebay 125/150
It becomes a fleet brawler with more inbuilt ehp instead of an 8th low (no more jealous amarrians!) or versatile small gang BS with drones and utility high. Fits aesthetically with it's large bulk and visible dronebay.
Hyperion: attack battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% reps per level 6300/ 6500 / 7500 increase in speed and agility, stats adjusted (nerfed) to attack role slot: 8/5/6 dronebay 75/75
Yes, give them both a rate if fire bonus! It offsets the low amount of lowslots. With an increase in speed and the retention of it's 5th mid slot, the Hyperion can be fitted as an agile shield ganker or fast active armour tanker, using nano pump rigs rather than the trimarks that would cause the Megathron to perform poorly as a fast BS. It doesn't end up wasting a hull bonus in fleet fights it isn't designed for and remains the small scale ganker/tanker it is clearly meant to be. It looks more the part, since it's kinda like a larger Thorax aesthetically and in terms of being fast for it's class and being able to both shield and armour tank.
^ THIS I TOTALLY AGREE! SWAP THE ROLES AND PUMP THE HP FOR THE MEGA!
|
Jadiss
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 11:59:00 -
[1715] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:
Hyperion: attack battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% reps per level 6300/ 6500 / 7500 increase in speed and agility, stats adjusted (nerfed) to attack role slot: 8/5/6, 8 turrets dronebay 75/75
Yes, give them both a rate of fire bonus! It offsets the low amount of lowslots. With an increase in speed and the retention of it's 5th mid slot, the Hyperion can be fitted as an agile shield ganker or fast active armour tanker, using nano pump rigs rather than the trimarks that would cause the Megathron to perform poorly as a fast BS. It doesn't end up wasting a hull bonus in fleet fights it isn't designed for and remains the small scale ganker/tanker it is clearly meant to be. It looks more the part, since it's kinda like a larger Thorax aesthetically and in terms of being fast for it's class and being able to both shield and armour tank.
8 turret Hyperion = Like! |
Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:01:00 -
[1716] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote: -Also battleships tank and mobility still needs to be buffed a great deal to make them worthwhile using any plans here?
Mobility is fine imho, but tanking a battleship (especially actively tanking an armor BS) is a lackluster. |
Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:05:00 -
[1717] - Quote
Give the megathron more CPU to fit 425mm rails. I can see rails being viable on megathron, but currently they're simply too hard to fit, |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:26:00 -
[1718] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:CCP have you considered swapping the roles between the Hyperion and Megathron for aesthetic and symbolic reasons? The relatively sleek looking Hyperion seems much more fitting as an attack battleship, while the Megathron looks more like a lumbering behemoth that would go toe to toe with an Abbadon.
An alternative:
Megathron: combat battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% tracking per level 7500 / 8000 / 8500 more capacitor, reduction in speed and agility, more CPU slot: 8/4/7, 7 turrets dronebay 125/150
It becomes a fleet brawler with more inbuilt ehp instead of an 8th low (no more jealous amarrians!) or versatile small gang BS with drones and utility high. Fits aesthetically with it's large bulk and visible dronebay.
Hyperion: attack battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% reps per level 6300/ 6500 / 7500 increase in speed and agility, stats adjusted (nerfed) to attack role slot: 8/5/6, 8 turrets dronebay 75/75
Yes, give them both a rate if fire bonus! It offsets the low amount of lowslots. With an increase in speed and the retention of it's 5th mid slot, the Hyperion can be fitted as an agile shield ganker or fast active armour tanker, using nano pump rigs rather than the trimarks that would cause the Megathron to perform poorly as a fast BS. It doesn't end up wasting a hull bonus in fleet fights it isn't designed for and remains the small scale ganker/tanker it is clearly meant to be. It looks more the part, since it's kinda like a larger Thorax aesthetically and in terms of being fast for it's class and being able to both shield and armour tank.
You could even just give Gallente three combat battleships. This would make a lot of sense, eventhough I think the perfect Megathron layout would be 7/5/7. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:34:00 -
[1719] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Johnny Aideron wrote:CCP have you considered swapping the roles between the Hyperion and Megathron for aesthetic and symbolic reasons? The relatively sleek looking Hyperion seems much more fitting as an attack battleship, while the Megathron looks more like a lumbering behemoth that would go toe to toe with an Abbadon.
An alternative:
Megathron: combat battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% tracking per level 7500 / 8000 / 8500 more capacitor, reduction in speed and agility, more CPU slot: 8/4/7, 7 turrets dronebay 125/150
It becomes a fleet brawler with more inbuilt ehp instead of an 8th low (no more jealous amarrians!) or versatile small gang BS with drones and utility high. Fits aesthetically with it's large bulk and visible dronebay.
Hyperion: attack battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% reps per level 6300/ 6500 / 7500 increase in speed and agility, stats adjusted (nerfed) to attack role slot: 8/5/6, 8 turrets dronebay 75/75
Yes, give them both a rate if fire bonus! It offsets the low amount of lowslots. With an increase in speed and the retention of it's 5th mid slot, the Hyperion can be fitted as an agile shield ganker or fast active armour tanker, using nano pump rigs rather than the trimarks that would cause the Megathron to perform poorly as a fast BS. It doesn't end up wasting a hull bonus in fleet fights it isn't designed for and remains the small scale ganker/tanker it is clearly meant to be. It looks more the part, since it's kinda like a larger Thorax aesthetically and in terms of being fast for it's class and being able to both shield and armour tank.
You could even just give Gallente three combat battleships. This would make a lot of sense, eventhough I think the perfect Megathron layout would be 7/5/7.
I don't find the swap a bad idea. However, 7 slots for a combat ship, that needs to fit other things than guns (reverse that an attack role) I find it's kind of not enough. Combat = 8 slots (defenders, neut, nos, drone mods) / Attack = 7 slots http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:47:00 -
[1720] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Johnny Aideron wrote:CCP have you considered swapping the roles between the Hyperion and Megathron for aesthetic and symbolic reasons? The relatively sleek looking Hyperion seems much more fitting as an attack battleship, while the Megathron looks more like a lumbering behemoth that would go toe to toe with an Abbadon.
An alternative:
Megathron: combat battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% tracking per level 7500 / 8000 / 8500 more capacitor, reduction in speed and agility, more CPU slot: 8/4/7, 7 turrets dronebay 125/150
It becomes a fleet brawler with more inbuilt ehp instead of an 8th low (no more jealous amarrians!) or versatile small gang BS with drones and utility high. Fits aesthetically with it's large bulk and visible dronebay.
Hyperion: attack battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% reps per level 6300/ 6500 / 7500 increase in speed and agility, stats adjusted (nerfed) to attack role slot: 8/5/6, 8 turrets dronebay 75/75
Yes, give them both a rate if fire bonus! It offsets the low amount of lowslots. With an increase in speed and the retention of it's 5th mid slot, the Hyperion can be fitted as an agile shield ganker or fast active armour tanker, using nano pump rigs rather than the trimarks that would cause the Megathron to perform poorly as a fast BS. It doesn't end up wasting a hull bonus in fleet fights it isn't designed for and remains the small scale ganker/tanker it is clearly meant to be. It looks more the part, since it's kinda like a larger Thorax aesthetically and in terms of being fast for it's class and being able to both shield and armour tank.
You could even just give Gallente three combat battleships. This would make a lot of sense, eventhough I think the perfect Megathron layout would be 7/5/7. I don't find the swap a bad idea. However, 7 slots for a combat ship, that needs to fit other things than guns (reverse that an attack role) I find it's kind of not enough. Combat = 8 slots (defenders, neut, nos, drone mods) / Attack = 7 slots
Please CCP listen to this guy, hes got EVERYTHING right, the aesthetic, the slots layout. If u think about it, Hyperion even got the High velocity helmsman for the recommended cert training which means ; its an attack ship! Please i beg u CCP , Please do it like this guys said! |
|
BEPOHNKA
Guerrilla Army S2N Citizens
74
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:51:00 -
[1721] - Quote
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Dominix: The roles should change for this battleship, I do agree to the fact the bonuses should be done by drones! But I think it's time we add a new role allowing it to man nothing but drones! Each level of Gen battleship trained of would give you +1 extra drone. As well with it's limited mount of bandwidth and cargo hold. This can be easy done, and would be a nice change in the game to see more of this time of roles be played/ Their are great counters to this with use of smart-bombs and or just shoot the drones them self. So here the status i would like this battleship become.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +1 extra control able drone per level +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 0 turrets , 0 launchers ( No Turrent as drones would make up the damage) Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45) |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:53:00 -
[1722] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:I don't find the swap a bad idea. However, 7 slots for a combat ship, that needs to fit other things than guns (reverse that an attack role) I find it's kind of not enough. Combat = 8 slots (defenders, neut, nos, drone mods) / Attack = 7 slots I'm not sure about that. Combat BS or not, it's still a gallente BS, and a mid slot should be enough for utility. With 8 high slot you are also relegated to 8/4/7, like the old Mega.
The more I thinkto everything, and the more I like the first proposal. :-( |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:55:00 -
[1723] - Quote
androch wrote:the domi model looks too ugly i know some people like that giant turd look but not all of us please update its appearance to look like the carrier youve turned it into
Going to agree with this heavily. Allot of the models in this game need revamps for two major reasons. 1. Because they looking ******* ugly and stoopid, 2. Because their roles have changed and the models should reflect what the ship is geared towards. For example, the Geddon is now becoming a drone ship, It should have modeled drone bays much like the new destroyer lineup have.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:57:00 -
[1724] - Quote
BEPOHNKA wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +1 extra control able drone per level Forget it IMO. This feature have been removed in the past because of server overload ; nowadays, only cap ships have more than 5 drones, and during cap fights, its a mess (server performances wise) largely because of the swarms of fighter bombers motherships launch. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 12:58:00 -
[1725] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:I don't find the swap a bad idea. However, 7 slots for a combat ship, that needs to fit other things than guns (reverse that an attack role) I find it's kind of not enough. Combat = 8 slots (defenders, neut, nos, drone mods) / Attack = 7 slots I'm not sure about that. Combat BS or not, it's still a gallente BS, and a mid slot should be enough for utility. With 8 high slot you are also relegated to 8/4/7, like the old Mega. The more I thinkto everything, and the more I like the first proposal. :-(
Not all the utility modules go to mid slots. That the reason why exist utility high slots, and they are actually "useful" (depending on the personal preference for every capsuleer and the situation) modules. Not putting utility high slots you sacrifice DPS. I think it's the more reasonable approach, as attack is, as the word says, attack; and combat is attack + other things. It's the reason why I see attack = 7 and combat = 8. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:02:00 -
[1726] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:androch wrote:the domi model looks too ugly i know some people like that giant turd look but not all of us please update its appearance to look like the carrier youve turned it into Going to agree with this heavily. Allot of the models in this game need revamps for two major reasons. 1. Because they looking ******* ugly and stoopid, 2. Because their roles have changed and the models should reflect what the ship is geared towards. For example, the Geddon is now becoming a drone ship, It should have modeled drone bays much like the new destroyer lineup have.
I have stated my opinion previously. However, it's fair that if a great part of the community (be careful, I have said community, not the posters of this thread) think it's ugly to think in change his look. However, I would like to point out other ship that need more love that this one: Have someone of you seen a Raven!? http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:03:00 -
[1727] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:And Why One of The gallente Battleship don't have any electronics Warfare Bonus like scorpion or Armageddon ??
Why do you hate gallente so much? or is it that you don't understand it?
This issue would be covered if the Domi were to get + drone bandwidth... or the less controversial + all drone functionality including EWAR and logi drones (which would accomplish a similar goal).
I think CCP Rise does understand that drone capability is about versatility and the iconic drone ship should represent that.
Instead, we are moving from versatility to pigeon-hole role.
Heck I even noticed with the missile slots on the geddon, it makes a better progression ship to training towards a Rattlesnake... barring the Amarr ship training of course. |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:05:00 -
[1728] - Quote
Suggested dominix model rework: http://i.imgur.com/Tj7OiJp.jpg |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:07:00 -
[1729] - Quote
You only want that shape to make think the enemies you have a Nyx :P http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:07:00 -
[1730] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:androch wrote:the domi model looks too ugly i know some people like that giant turd look but not all of us please update its appearance to look like the carrier youve turned it into Going to agree with this heavily. Allot of the models in this game need revamps for two major reasons. 1. Because they looking ******* ugly and stoopid, 2. Because their roles have changed and the models should reflect what the ship is geared towards. For example, the Geddon is now becoming a drone ship, It should have modeled drone bays much like the new destroyer lineup have.
The issue is primarily CCP getting us addicted ever since the new mega/tempest/stabber hulls :S |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
857
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:10:00 -
[1731] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Irya Boone wrote:And Why One of The gallente Battleship don't have any electronics Warfare Bonus like scorpion or Armageddon ??
Why do you hate gallente so much? or is it that you don't understand it? This issue would be covered if the Domi were to get + drone bandwidth... or the less controversial + all drone functionality including EWAR and logi drones (which would accomplish a similar goal). I think CCP Rise does understand that drone capability is about versatility and the iconic drone ship should represent that. Instead, we are moving from versatility to pigeon-hole role. Heck I even noticed with the missile slots on the geddon, it makes a better progression ship to training towards a Rattlesnake... barring the Amarr ship training of course. At this point the Amarr line up is geared toward better progression than the Gallente line up. Most Amarr drone ships get a bonus to Energy neutralizers, which happen to have the same prerequisite skill as energy transfers which the Archon gets a bonus to. The Gallente line up, while it has its strengths, takes a sharp turn after the Vexor and kinda goes where ever and then takes another big twist on the way to the Thanatos, as the only thing it has in common with its sub cap cousins is the drone aspect. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:18:00 -
[1732] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:
The issue is primarily CCP getting us addicted ever since the new mega/tempest/stabber hulls :S
I don't know if I'd blame ccp for getting us addicted. If anything the models in this game should have been updated years and years ago. Eve use to be a game that stood out graphically within the entire industry. Now it looks dated and rather bleh. Texture res are bad on models as well as the "star back drop". |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
858
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:24:00 -
[1733] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:BEPOHNKA wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +1 extra control able drone per level Forget it IMO. This feature have been removed in the past because of server overload ; nowadays, only cap ships have more than 5 drones, and during cap fights, its a mess (server performances wise) largely because of the swarms of fighter bombers motherships launch. I don't think I would mind carriers and super carriers the sub cap drone treatment. Remove DCUs, change Advanced Drone Interfacing to +20% Fighter and Fighter Bomber damage per level Carrier Hull remove +1 Drone per level add +10% Drone and Fighter Damage and HP per Level Super Carrier Remove +3 Fighter and Fighter Bomber per level, Add +30% Fighter and Fighter Bomber Damage Per Level Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3067
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:33:00 -
[1734] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:CCP have you considered swapping the roles between the Hyperion and Megathron for aesthetic and symbolic reasons? The relatively sleek looking Hyperion seems much more fitting as an attack battleship, while the Megathron looks more like a lumbering behemoth that would go toe to toe with an Abbadon.
An alternative:
Megathron: combat battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% tracking per level 7500 / 8000 / 8500 more capacitor, reduction in speed and agility, more CPU slot: 8/4/7, 7 turrets dronebay 125/150
It becomes a fleet brawler with more inbuilt ehp instead of an 8th low (no more jealous amarrians!) or versatile small gang BS with drones and utility high. Fits aesthetically with it's large bulk and visible dronebay.
Hyperion: attack battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% reps per level 6300/ 6500 / 7500 increase in speed and agility, stats adjusted (nerfed) to attack role slot: 8/5/6, 8 turrets dronebay 75/75
Yes, give them both a rate of fire bonus! It offsets the low amount of lowslots. With an increase in speed and the retention of it's 5th mid slot, the Hyperion can be fitted as an agile shield ganker or fast active armour tanker, using nano pump rigs rather than the trimarks that would cause the Megathron to perform poorly as a fast BS. It doesn't end up wasting a hull bonus in fleet fights it isn't designed for and remains the small scale ganker/tanker it is clearly meant to be. It looks more the part, since it's kinda like a larger Thorax aesthetically and in terms of being fast for it's class and being able to both shield and armour tank.
You could even just give Gallente three combat battleships.
Plus, can somebody tell me what an armour tanking, turret fitted dominix is meant to do with 5 midslots? You won't need those mids for omnidirectional tracking links due to the hull bonus. So you should consider giving the Dominix -1 mid and then an extra high so that it can fit a drone link augmentor on top of it's guns or an extra low for more tank and gank. Plus some extra base targeting range. Or just give the Dominix a different hull bonus and let players make a choice about whether to use their mids on omnidirectionals.
I like the idea of swapping the roles. Some gripes with your ideas however:
If the Mega is getting swapped to Combat, it cannot have 8 lows. The HP bonus is basically giving it a free plate, so it would be downright broken. 8 lows allows the Assault Mega iteration to fix its extremely low base stats via a second plate. So I agree with putting its lows back at 7.
However, I feel a better layout would be 8 / 4 / 7 (8 turrets) or 7 / 5 / 7 (7 turrets) if it is reworked into Combat. Utility highs only matter in one role, and are a wasted slot in every other role (PvE, fleets, anything outside 25km). Combat BSes are very focused into fleets and PvE, moreso than gangs. They are built around their guns and tank, with little else thrown in. It would of course need a CPU boost, no matter what happens, and if set up for 8 turrets, probably reverted to the old straight damage bonus alongside the usual boost in PG + CPU to support 8 turrets.
Regarding the Hyperion reworked into Attack - I disagree fundamentally with the 8/5/6 layout. As I've covered so many times in this thread, it is fundamentally flawed and does not permit a good buffer at all. Coupled with the HP reduction, buffer Hyperions would simply be impossible. The only options would be gank or active armor. This limits the ship far too much.
I like the idea of a 6 turret Hyperion with a utility high for a lot of reasons. It lets the ship have a 7 / 5 / 7 layout, which opens up buffer tanks and gives the ship a utility high. It opens up a lot of PG and CPU previously tied up in guns. And it decreases turret capacitor consumption, meaning those crazy triple / dual rep setups are just that little extra bit better.
All in all, I like the idea of swapping the roles, the two fits certainly seem designed for the opposite roles. I just disagree with the details you're proposing. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:35:00 -
[1735] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: If the Mega is getting swapped to Combat, it cannot have 8 lows. The HP bonus is basically giving it a free plate, so it would be downright broken. 8 lows allows the Assault Mega iteration to fix its extremely low base stats via a second plate.
Check again, my proposal has 7 lows. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3069
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:37:00 -
[1736] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: If the Mega is getting swapped to Combat, it cannot have 8 lows. The HP bonus is basically giving it a free plate, so it would be downright broken. 8 lows allows the Assault Mega iteration to fix its extremely low base stats via a second plate.
Check again, my proposal has 7 lows.
Read the next paragraph. I also clarified the first that I'm not disagreeing on this, I'm bringing it up before mentioning why 8 / 4 / 7 with 7 turrets is not the ideal layout. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:39:00 -
[1737] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote: Heck I even noticed with the missile slots on the geddon, it makes a better progression ship to training towards a Rattlesnake... barring the Amarr ship training of course.
At this point the Amarr line up is geared toward better progression than the Gallente line up. Most Amarr drone ships get a bonus to Energy neutralizers, which happen to have the same prerequisite skill as energy transfers which the Archon gets a bonus to. The Gallente line up, while it has its strengths, takes a sharp turn after the Vexor and kinda goes where ever and then takes another big twist on the way to the Thanatos, as the only thing it has in common with its sub cap cousins is the drone aspect.
I suppose, though with an 11 day train on large T2 neuts it's not exactly progression training. More like something you stick in your queue cause it's silly not to.
Large T2 missile systems take a month just to be able to slap it on your ship and another couple of weeks to months depending on how decent you want to be a blapping stuff with them. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
858
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:43:00 -
[1738] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote: Heck I even noticed with the missile slots on the geddon, it makes a better progression ship to training towards a Rattlesnake... barring the Amarr ship training of course.
At this point the Amarr line up is geared toward better progression than the Gallente line up. Most Amarr drone ships get a bonus to Energy neutralizers, which happen to have the same prerequisite skill as energy transfers which the Archon gets a bonus to. The Gallente line up, while it has its strengths, takes a sharp turn after the Vexor and kinda goes where ever and then takes another big twist on the way to the Thanatos, as the only thing it has in common with its sub cap cousins is the drone aspect. I suppose, though with an 11 day train on large T2 neuts it's not exactly progression training. More like something you stick in your queue cause it's silly not to. Large T2 missile systems take a month just to be able to slap it on your ship and another couple of weeks to months depending on how decent you want to be a blapping stuff with them. What I was more getting as is for the Gallente line up you are given a hybrid damage bonus up till battle cruisers, which presumably you will continue to battleships, then go back and train logistic skills to use a carrier. With the Amarr line up you are given a bonus to a module that directly correlates to what the carrier uses. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:55:00 -
[1739] - Quote
Speed / Class / Name
89 Combat Rohk 89 Combat Abaddon 94 Combat Maelstrom 94 Disrupt Scorpion 100 Combat Armageddon 109 Combat Dominix 113 Attack Apocalypse 113 Attack Raven 115 Combat Hyperion 120 Attack Tempest 122 Attack Megathron 130 Attack Typhoon
The hyperion has far too much base speed it is faster than 2 of the races attack bs Some more thought needs to go in here I think, Classes should be viable across all races no just within a race.
Hyp speed to 105 Domi to 100 Raven and Apoc to 120 Mega to 130 |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 14:16:00 -
[1740] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:Speed / Class / Name
89 Combat Rohk 89 Combat Abaddon 94 Combat Maelstrom 94 Disrupt Scorpion 100 Combat Armageddon 109 Combat Dominix 113 Attack Apocalypse 113 Attack Raven 115 Combat Hyperion 120 Attack Tempest 122 Attack Megathron 130 Attack Typhoon
The hyperion has far too much base speed it is faster than 2 of the races attack bs Some more thought needs to go in here I think, Classes should be viable across all races no just within a race.
Hyp speed to 105 Domi to 100 Raven and Apoc to 120 Mega to 130
Thats one of the reason i support Johnny Aideron proposal, which is to ; swap the roles between Mega and Hyp then make the layout that he proposed. Hype even got High Velocity Helmsman cert for crying out loud. Its obviously not a combat but an attack BS. |
|
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 14:19:00 -
[1741] - Quote
William R Blake wrote:Dav Varan wrote:Speed / Class / Name
89 Combat Rohk 89 Combat Abaddon 94 Combat Maelstrom 94 Disrupt Scorpion 100 Combat Armageddon 109 Combat Dominix 113 Attack Apocalypse 113 Attack Raven 115 Combat Hyperion 120 Attack Tempest 122 Attack Megathron 130 Attack Typhoon
The hyperion has far too much base speed it is faster than 2 of the races attack bs Some more thought needs to go in here I think, Classes should be viable across all races no just within a race.
Hyp speed to 105 Domi to 100 Raven and Apoc to 120 Mega to 130 Thats one of the reason i support Johnny Aideron proposal, which is to ; swap the roles between Mega and Hyp then make the layout that he proposed. Hype even got High Velocity Helmsman cert for crying out loud. Its obviously not a combat but an attack BS.
I thought you were ironizing with my opinions for the 7-8 slots matters... xD http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 14:30:00 -
[1742] - Quote
Hi Rise & Team,
Thanks for all your work to date. I can imagine you're busy dealing with fallout in other threads, so we probably wont hear from you till Monday. Have a fun weekend.
Attack vs Combat: Changing from Tiers to Roles makes it a bit of an Apples or Oranges thing for me. IMO new Hype does everything it used to do but does it better now. New mega does everything it did before only better now. Domi still not sure.
If it's that big a deal to some people, could we just go double Attack like Minmatar ? I'm more concerned with the stats and slots than the name, and atm I'm liking what I see.
Hype: Better for PvE, people will find something useful to put in the high that will help. Much better for PvP, there will Always be some good reason for that high slot in a close range Blaster ship. Could probably fit rails in a fleet fight and be respectable, but still 2'nd place to a mega. If it does turn out to be a bit OP 100/175 on the drone bay wont have people screaming for your head, so you've got wiggle room there.
Mega: Better for PvE. Better than ever as a close range Blaster platform. Highly viable as a fleet platform. Might not be perfect with T2 425's but that's what meta 4 and implants are for.
Navy Megathron: Though I'd start lobbying early. Already has 8 lows so that bonus slot has to go somewhere. The 8-4-8 will be popular with some people but I'd like to X up for 7-5-8 100/150. Some people will shield tank it but most will dual web it which is a blaster boats dream ( while still leaving the Vindi King of the HIll ).
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:14:00 -
[1743] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Mega: Better for PvE. Better than ever as a close range Blaster platform. Highly viable as a fleet platform. Might not be perfect with T2 425's but that's what meta 4 and implants are for. Navy Megathron: Though I'd start lobbying early . Already has 8 lows so that bonus slot has to go somewhere. The 8-4-8 will be popular with some people but I'd like to X up for 7-5-8 100/150. Some people will shield tank it but most will dual web it which is a blaster boats dream ( while still leaving the Vindi King of the HIll ). The Mega higly viable as fleet platform, I doubt it. As I said, amarr and caldari are both better for anything you could do with your megathron. I already showed a beam abaddon fit which does everything can megathron can do, but with better resists and better dps at close range. Blaster fit, you will lack range on the Megathron, because blasters are not a weapon for fleet focus fire and fast target switching. So I wonder what it will be useful for.
And looking to it, the Navy Megathron already does anything you can only dream to do with this Megathron version. I really think the Megathron should have 5 mid slots. He would then compete with minmatar ships, but hybrid guns with drones compete with projectiles at least. Hence why I think the first version of the Megathron was very good. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:22:00 -
[1744] - Quote
Does the domi seem really low on power grid to anyone else? thhief ghabmoef |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3070
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:24:00 -
[1745] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:The Mega higly viable as fleet platform, I doubt it. As I said, amarr and caldari are both better for anything you could do with your megathron. I already showed a beam abaddon fit which does everything can megathron can do, but with better resists and better dps at close range. Blaster fit, you will lack range on the Megathron, because blasters are not a weapon for fleet focus fire and fast target switching. So I wonder what it will be useful for.
And looking to it, the Navy Megathron already does anything you can only dream to do with this Megathron version. I really think the Megathron should have 5 mid slots. He would then compete with minmatar ships, but hybrid guns with drones compete with projectiles at least. Hence why I think the first version of the Megathron was very good.
Fit one up. And use rails, FFS.
Right now it is an extremely solid mid-range fleet brawler. It is 2nd best at 40-60km, without the crippling range limitations of the best, meaning is is basically a far more flexible Abaddon.
Its tank is either 4th with good resists or 2nd with bad resists. With 600 CPU, it could be a solid #2 in tank.
In other words, it is a truly solid fleet option. #2 in range, tank and damage if it gets its CPU boost. All the rest get to be good at 1 or 2, and suck at the 3rd. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:32:00 -
[1746] - Quote
I have flown the mega for a good long time in game and have always felt it needed the 8th turret hardpoint |
Funky Lazers
shin-ra ltd
241
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 16:08:00 -
[1747] - Quote
It is sad Hype lost its turret DPS. I mean it is much better to have a turret DPS instead of additional drone damage aka increased bandwidth.
In PvP or PvE drones are a bad idea. Whatever. |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
320
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 16:08:00 -
[1748] - Quote
Roime wrote:[Dominix, I'm LR fit pls don't warp to 0]
664dps @ 78+12km 0.09389 tracking 133K EHP
1041 dps with blasters and Ogre IIs
dat tracking
1)You have a range of ~75km depending on skills.
2)What exactly do you plan on engaging at that range? It's not far enough to snipe anything, come back when it can hit at LEAST 100km
3)That build is built to fight what, tengus? It's going to get demolished by pretty much any other doctrine out there right now, and tengus aren't hard to counter as it is. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1262
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 16:54:00 -
[1749] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Does the domi seem a bit low on power grid to anyone else? They bumped it from 9k to 10k. They would need to bump it more to get a full set of higher tier guns on it (Ions). They might be afraid that the Domi could then fit a full rack of heavy neuts which may invade the space of the Geddon too much. |
Komen
Capital Enrichment Services Existential Anxiety
182
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 17:17:00 -
[1750] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Komen wrote:I am gobsmacked at the megathron changes. 'Often unused utility hi-slot' MY ASS. I have at least three uses for that slot, it never goes empty. Learn to fit your ******* ship. Empty utility slot. And then you're going from a damage bonus to a ROF bonus...and a tracking bonus... I actually lost braincells, is how stupid that idea is. The megathron does not have trouble hitting targets, and a tracking bonus on large guns is almost useless. The ship isn't broken as it sits right now, but you've just about figured how to introduce that problem. And you're supposed to be some genius ship balancer with a good knowledge of vessels. Fired. NEXT. Lemme guess. Neut (only matters for brawler fits), Remote Rep (waste of a slot), and cyno. That slot is empty in the vast majority of Megas I have seen.
You got the first one right. I do have a close-in brawler fit mega with a heavy neut in that slot.
Then, because I'm a wormhole dweller - probe launcher is an alternative.
Lastly I worked in a smartbomb, because drones.
And you suggested two other options. Cyno, heh. Nullbears.
While that slot might go empty on a lot of megas, that's because there's a lot of people in Eve who are bad at fitting ships. There's a clear false logic here that because that slot goes empty a lot it must not be useful much. Wrrrrrrrrrrrrong. |
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Commander A9
The Scope Gallente Federation
304
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 17:21:00 -
[1751] - Quote
Oh, that's great. My favorite Gallente Battleship (Hyperion) is losing 2 turrets. :(
Wonderful. And I was just getting excited about the prospect of maximizing my large hybrid capabilities. Recommendations: -bring back the Jukebox! -enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters) -add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot) -less focus on graphics, more on mechanics |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3070
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 17:27:00 -
[1752] - Quote
Komen wrote: You got the first one right. I do have a close-in brawler fit mega with a heavy neut in that slot.
Then, because I'm a wormhole dweller - probe launcher is an alternative.
Lastly I worked in a smartbomb, because drones.
And you suggested two other options. Cyno, heh. Nullbears.
While that slot might go empty on a lot of megas, that's because there's a lot of people in Eve who are bad at fitting ships. There's a clear false logic here that because that slot goes empty a lot it must not be useful much. Wrrrrrrrrrrrrong.
/facepalm
Optimized fits just don't have room for anything in that slot. It is by far the lowest priority slot to fill on the ship unless you're building a pure brawler and need to neut, at which point it is about even with or just below a mid in terms of priority.
Fitting a basic probe launcher honestly is pretty much a waste in most cases. Might as well stick a salvager on it. Heh. You're better off with a dedicated prober, it most certainly isn't worth -1 low or -1 mid.
As for a smartbomb, again, you're just sticking something in there for the sake of sticking something in there. A low or mid is infinitely more useful. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
281
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 18:19:00 -
[1753] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:Oh, that's great. My favorite Gallente Battleship (Hyperion) is losing 2 turrets. :(
Wonderful. And I was just getting excited about the prospect of maximizing my large hybrid capabilities. Dude ! 6 turrets may not be that sexy, but it's definitely optimized ! The new Hyperion is better than it ever was ! |
Fango Mango
University of Caille Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 18:20:00 -
[1754] - Quote
Changes to the Dominix.
1) You are saying that the Dominix is now a sentry drone ship (lets be honest, with the new bonus, the only reason to fly it is if you use sentry drones).
2) Given that it is now a sentry boat & you have been it two omnidirectional links, you have basicly given it 2 free slots.
3) We are left with a Gallente battleship that has the following slots free 6/5/5 or 6/5/4 if you go with 3 DDA.
4) You pretty much have the shield tank it (which is fine, shield tanking is better at the moment). Wouldn't moving a mid to low make more sense given that the hull bonus is two free mid slots though?
5) Looks like the optimal fit for Dominix is going to be Drones/Shield/Autocannon. How is this a Gallente ship again?
Not that I'm complaining (other than all the time spent training T2 Rails/Blasters), it's going to be a much better ship.
-FM |
Ju0ZaS
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 19:49:00 -
[1755] - Quote
I think that a Megathron would be best beeing a faster Vindicator with lower HP. With a slot layout of 7/5/7 and 7 guns you could set up a dual web fit. The Idea obviously would be to aproach, put hard webbing on your target, owerwhelm with high dps, and f off after the kill or contineu to the secondary. Regarding the rate of fire bonus, it's just going to make the ship use cap faster and shoot through ammo quiker. Gallente should be focused on high voleying blasters on their short range gun boats, not high rate of fire like Minmatar. The current bonuses are fine.
About the Dominix, I like the idea of being able to control 10 drones at lvl5. It would take the role of a subcapital drone boat to a new level. I don't think it would hurt the server too much, as only 1 subcap ship could have this ability. I'm kind of conflikted though because when you think of it, with out an increased drone capacity you're not even going to be able to have 2 flights of drones that use 25 m3. And if you increase it, it kind of goes against the CCP's general idea of Amarr having less bandwidth and more drone bay capacity than Gallente. Right now the Gedon and the Domi both have 375 m3 for drones and 125 bandwidth. I guess it would be fine considering that it would become a ship purely relying on drones for dps. The scorpion has 3 donuses, the domi could perhaps have 3 as well: +1 drone, 10% damage and hp, 7.5% tracking and optimal rage per lvl. Not even considering a drone speed bonus as the ship is ment for heavy and sentry drones.
+1 for a new Domi model... Typhoon would aslo be great. :)
For the Hyperion the 5 mids and 7 lows would work perfectly as an active tanking ship. For the highs, unless you're planning to redo the hyperion model, so it wouldn't be so obvious that it's hull ment for 8 turrets, you should probably keep the highs as it is. But then I think the ship would have 1 slot too many. As a side note, the other race's combat gun boats have 8 turrets. 6 on a hyperion and its role just doesn't look right. Maybe 6 guns with a model ment for 8 will be fine if you'll come out with a navy version for the hyperion one day along with the other BSs which are missing them. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 20:30:00 -
[1756] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Commander A9 wrote:Oh, that's great. My favorite Gallente Battleship (Hyperion) is losing 2 turrets. :(
Wonderful. And I was just getting excited about the prospect of maximizing my large hybrid capabilities. Dude ! 6 turrets may not be that sexy, but it's definitely optimized ! The new Hyperion is better than it ever was !
Ship gets cheaper to fit and will have more "relative" grid as well
I'm 100% in agreement with you bouth, the Hyperion is going to be a monster in the small scale arena. Infact I think the extra 50m3 of drone bay may be a bit over the top. Will have to wait till things hit sis/duality but I have a good feeling that the Hyperion will be one of the most effective small scale ships out there so long as large numbers of nuets are not involved.
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 20:36:00 -
[1757] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Does the domi seem a bit low on power grid to anyone else? They bumped it from 9k to 10k. They would need to bump it more to get a full set of higher tier guns on it (Ions). They might be afraid that the Domi could then fit a full rack of heavy neuts which may invade the space of the Geddon too much. lol--first, nobody is going to fit hybrids on the post-Odyssey Domi when projectiles do as good a job with less fitting and no cap use. And also lol to "Domi invade on Geddon's space" when it is the Armageddon which is solely the one who took the neuting Domi--a role the Domi was well suited for--out back and put a bullet through its head. The Geddon is a laser beam spewing monster--the big brother of the Omen in the Amarr ship line--at the moment, not a neuting platform. If anyone has stepped on anyone else's toes, it's definitely the Geddon onto the Domi.
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
284
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 20:49:00 -
[1758] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:lol--first, nobody is going to fit hybrids on the post-Odyssey Domi when projectiles do as good a job with less fitting and no cap use. And also lol to "Domi invade on Geddon's space" when it is the Armageddon which is solely the one who took the neuting Domi--a role the Domi was well suited for--out back and put a bullet through its head. The Geddon is a laser beam spewing monster--the big brother of the Omen in the Amarr ship line--at the moment, not a neuting platform. If anyone has stepped on anyone else's toes, it's definitely the Geddon onto the Domi.
Projectiles are only good when you don't need a weapon in the first place... |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 21:01:00 -
[1759] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:lol--first, nobody is going to fit hybrids on the post-Odyssey Domi when projectiles do as good a job with less fitting and no cap use. And also lol to "Domi invade on Geddon's space" when it is the Armageddon which is solely the one who took the neuting Domi--a role the Domi was well suited for--out back and put a bullet through its head. The Geddon is a laser beam spewing monster--the big brother of the Omen in the Amarr ship line--at the moment, not a neuting platform. If anyone has stepped on anyone else's toes, it's definitely the Geddon onto the Domi.
Projectiles are only good when you don't need a weapon in the first place...
Or when you have two damage bonuses, a shield tank, and a zillion lows for TE and Gyros. *looks at many matari ships*
Other than that they are essentially a support weapon on unbonussed ships as they do not have any real adverse effect on how the rest of your modules work outside of eating some grid, which they generally don't take much of (arty aside)
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Shadow's Caress
Rum Booty Plunder
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 21:11:00 -
[1760] - Quote
Hyperion: Min/Max DPS output and tanking stats look nice, but that's about where it ends. Just take a look at a graph of capacitor levels, and you'll see a ship that is anything but friendly to fly. Its not even that it requires a lot of cap, but that the fluctuations are massive and as soon as it hits zero, it dies. In addition to managing that, the user has to closely manage range and transversal just to get a solid hit on the opponent. To sum it up, the high DPS output is offset by bad damage application, and the high DPS tank is offset by horrible capacitor issues. I wouldn't want to fly this unless I had a massive cap transfer and I'm shooting something big and slow that can't blow me out of the water. Even then, there are other ships which would have similar DPS numbers without as many usability issues.
Megathron: LOVE the eighth low slot and the tracking bonus. I don't love the meager CPU bonus that probably won't cover the added module in that 8th low. I also don't care for the reduction in drone bandwith/capacity. A set of Ogre IIs gave the Megathron that added punch when it came to broadsiding other battleships. Don't want to go with drones? Make it hit harder. This is a significant damage nerf to a battleship whose only hope of winning is going literally toe to toe with its competition.
Domi: What? Ok, I get that you want it to be a dedicated drone boat. You've already turned other battleships (Armageddon and Rattlesnake) into dedicated drone boats with their bonuses, bandwidth, and drone bays. So it makes sense that you want a way for the Domi to stand out among them. Drone optimal range and tracking will indeed help in regards to sentries and damage application, but I feel like there's a lot more you can do with a battleship sized hull here. If you want better drone damage application, I would do that with something smaller like the myrmidon. The local armor rep amount bonus would work well here since the domi doesn't have to worry as much about MWD and feeding blasters as the hyperion does. I'd go one step further though. I would opt for a local AND REMOTE armor rep amount bonus. This would give the player a choice between a relatively tough active armor tanked drone boat, or a more fleet friendly remote repping drone boat. With this change, I would almost be afraid of the domi. |
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2518
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 21:33:00 -
[1761] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Roime wrote:[Dominix, I'm LR fit pls don't warp to 0]
664dps @ 78+12km 0.09389 tracking 133K EHP
1041 dps with blasters and Ogre IIs
dat tracking
1)You have a range of ~75km depending on skills. 2)What exactly do you plan on engaging at that range? It's not far enough to snipe anything, come back when it can hit at LEAST 100km 3)That build is built to fight what, tengus? It's going to get demolished by pretty much any other doctrine out there right now, and tengus aren't hard to counter as it is.
1) nope 2) you can swap drones and alter the fit to reach AT LEAST 100km 3) use it or not, it has the best tracking at that range in game, tracks better than most short range guns
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Irya Boone
TIPIAKS
222
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 21:37:00 -
[1762] - Quote
really ccp stop messing around with gallente ships RENAME null sec systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome. Need Black Ops be able to FIT cover ops cloaking device !!! |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 21:43:00 -
[1763] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:lol--first, nobody is going to fit hybrids on the post-Odyssey Domi when projectiles do as good a job with less fitting and no cap use.
Actually, hybrids are much easier on power grid than either of the other two turret types. CPU is their limiting factor in most cases. thhief ghabmoef |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 22:08:00 -
[1764] - Quote
Why are people talking like the mega has been buffed? It hasn't, it has the same dps and tank of the old mega, but no utility slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. If you're going to keep it like this, at least give it the 125 bandwidth back so that we're getting more dps with the advantage of an eighth low slot, instead of using it to just get it back to where it is now. |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
320
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 23:18:00 -
[1765] - Quote
Roime wrote: 1) nope 2) you can swap drones and alter the fit to reach AT LEAST 100km 3) use it or not, it has the best tracking at that range in game, tracks better than most short range guns
1)Drone control range is a biatch 2)And then your dps drops to ~580. 3)You could say the exact same thing about a tristan with tracking computers, that doesn't make it useful.
Again, what exactly do you envision this ship DOING? What kind of ships would this setup work well against that actually see use in fleets?
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Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 23:43:00 -
[1766] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Why are people talking like the mega has been buffed? It hasn't, it has the same dps and tank of the old mega, but no utility slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. If you're going to keep it like this, at least give it the 125 bandwidth back so that we're getting more dps with the advantage of an eighth low slot, instead of using it to just get it back to where it is now.
Depends really. Post patch mega will have more turret dps with the same tank and less drone dps. With the travel time of heavy drones it will actually be a buff in terms of applied dmg in the vast majority of situations. The ship is also faster and more agile than it was before, which while not significant is still an advantage that many of the people posting are seeming to totally forget about.
I'm not totally against your idea of giving it a bit of it's bandwidth back, however I think limiting it to 100m3 is probably the best avenue of approach. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3071
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 23:56:00 -
[1767] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Why are people talking like the mega has been buffed? It hasn't, it has the same dps and tank of the old mega, but no utility slot for a neut or whatever else you want to throw in there. If you're going to keep it like this, at least give it the 125 bandwidth back so that we're getting more dps with the advantage of an eighth low slot, instead of using it to just get it back to where it is now.
Stop looking at the Megathron like it is only one fit.
Seriously, just stop. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Kn1v3s 999
LA MEGADITTA Test Alliance Please Ignore
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 00:26:00 -
[1768] - Quote
-Hype: pretty nasty buff, but it will be still a niche ship cause armor brawling is really bad atm. You can use it for small gang, but you re gonna waste a bonus.
-Mega: i too miss the utility (and no, was not a waste at all) BUT it s still better compared to the old Mega for brawling (more dps on your tracking bonused guns, better buffer or active tank) and you can even drop an high slot and put a SB or neut and it will still be better. The only issue it has in common with the old one is the cap, which is still **** if you want full tackle (and you want full tackle if you re gonna brawl in it).
-Domi: bonus for large guns was terrible unless for gank fits, so, not much of a loss (and btw you can still fit the ship for gank and do more dps compared to before so). But i would really like a tracking and mwd speed bonus to drones per lvl, not optimal/tracking. Right now is too much oriented for fleets/pve and sentry abuse |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
517
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 00:49:00 -
[1769] - Quote
New dominix change is terrible. Flying pve, and pvp dominixs, I have no issue with tracking with sentries, provided I have one or two omnidirectionals fit in the mids, which allows garde IIs to easily hit cruisers from 10km-50km, and longer range drones like bouncers to track cruisers (with ease) in a 30-120km range. The new bonus is useless, and removes the very beneficial for pvp and pve bonus to hybrids. You are crushing the potential dps output of the ship, and giving it something it does need, and has VERY little use for with any drones but sentries. Please consider not relegating the role of dominix to 'single ship bonus trash'. |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
517
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 00:56:00 -
[1770] - Quote
Kn1v3s 999 wrote:
-Domi: bonus for large guns was terrible unless for gank fits, so, not much of a loss (and btw you can still fit the ship for gank and do more dps compared to before so). But i would really like a tracking and mwd speed bonus to drones per lvl, not optimal/tracking. Right now is too much oriented for fleets/pve and sentry abuse
Do you really underst how dumb what you just said is? Old dps: 5 garde/ogre II's, 50% damage bonus, 6 Neutron IIs, 25% damage bonus New dps: 5 garde/ogre II's, 50% damage bonus, 6 neutron IIs, no damage bonus.
We're talking: Old dps on solo/duo pvp fit: 1537 (Void, Ogre IIs, not overheating) New dps on solo/duo pvp fit: 1368 (Void, Ogre IIs, not overheating)
So, please, do explain to me, how with a massive damage bonus removed, that drops dps by ~170, how you can make it do MORE dps? |
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androch
Chillwater Ltd
52
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 02:36:00 -
[1771] - Quote
]the domi model looks too ugly i know some people like that giant turd look but not all of us please update its appearance to look like the carrier youve turned it into
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2201
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:01:00 -
[1772] - Quote
I'll just reiterate my stance that the drone tracking and range bonus is not the [main] problem here. It's the Armageddon.
At close range a 'Geddon can do exactly what a Domi can do but better. And sniper sentryboats fits will underperform compared to sniper gunboats since sentry drones are immobile and can be lost. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 04:36:00 -
[1773] - Quote
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +10% range of Webs (or Warp Scram/Dis)(or MWD/AB speed)
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 11 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Megathron:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +5% Falloff and Optimal range
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 600 CPU(+50) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 152(+37) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +15% (+5) Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range, Drone MWD Speed and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +5% Drone Effects (Sensor Damp, Jamming, repairing) (making it a true drone boat)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 4 (-2) turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
My recommendations: It makes the Hyper a solo/small gang brawler, the Mega a Fleet BS, and the Domi a true drone boat that is very versatile to fill support roles. ALSO PLEASE CHANGE THE DOMI HULL!!! |
Railed
Valar Morghulis. Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:38:00 -
[1774] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:
Megathron:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +5% Falloff and Optimal range
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 600 CPU(+50) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 152(+37) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
I support this ship!
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Gargantoi
Solar Wind Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:45:00 -
[1775] - Quote
now ...CCP u did the best job ever ...made the hyperion ******* awsome ...mega even more awsome ...ty ..now i am really proud of this changes ...Well done |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2520
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 08:10:00 -
[1776] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Roime wrote: 1) nope 2) you can swap drones and alter the fit to reach AT LEAST 100km 3) use it or not, it has the best tracking at that range in game, tracks better than most short range guns
1)Drone control range is a biatch 2)And then your dps drops to ~580. 3)You could say the exact same thing about a tristan with tracking computers, that doesn't make it useful. Again, what exactly do you envision this ship DOING? What kind of ships would this setup work well against that actually see use in fleets?
1) my fit has 84km drone control range, just add more DLAs, dps is lost only for the close range option 2) that's more than others 3) Tristan happens to be one of the best frigates atm
Because of it's superior tracking, flexibility and equal ability to brawl and snipe, it can shoot anything at any range.
You're not using it for anything anyway, just keep shooting pods and shuttles in Jita mate.
Domi will find it's uses in fleets, if CCP comes through with their plan to tweak with sentry drone usability.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Throktar
24th Imperial Crusade
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 08:52:00 -
[1777] - Quote
Megathron Loses a high, loses ehp, loses 50m3 of drone bandwidth and bay, in exchange for 7 ms a sec, and the ROF bonus change. I know it gets another low, but if you lose 2 heavy drones, you have to make your new low a mag stab just to even out with the same dps you just lost. This just doesn't get me excited at all. At the minimum can we have 25m3 of drone bw and bay back please?
CCP Rise, I really liked that 5th mid slot you added, I just wish you would have left that and given the utility high back to make it a 7/5/7 fit with minimum 100m3 drone bw and bay.
If I am wrong about any of this please respectfully point it out and tell me why. |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:06:00 -
[1778] - Quote
Throktar wrote:Megathron Loses a high, loses ehp, loses 50m3 of drone bandwidth and bay, in exchange for 7 ms a sec, and the ROF bonus change. I know it gets another low, but if you lose 2 heavy drones, you have to make your new low a mag stab just to even out with the same dps you just lost. This just doesn't get me excited at all. At the minimum can we have 25m3 of drone bw and bay back please?
CCP Rise, I really liked that 5th mid slot you added, I just wish you would have left that and given the utility high back to make it a 7/5/7 fit with minimum 100m3 drone bw and bay.
If I am wrong about any of this please respectfully point it out and tell me why. RoF bonus better than damage bonus, you know it right? DPS will not change a lot but we will have extra low for tank\TE\Magstab or ECCM.
With new layouts Mega is good fleet ship. Dont ruin it :) |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 11:15:00 -
[1779] - Quote
William R Blake wrote:Johnny Aideron wrote:CCP have you considered swapping the roles between the Hyperion and Megathron for aesthetic and symbolic reasons? The relatively sleek looking Hyperion seems much more fitting as an attack battleship, while the Megathron looks more like a lumbering behemoth that would go toe to toe with an Abbadon.
An alternative:
Megathron: combat battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% tracking per level 7500 / 8000 / 8500 more capacitor, reduction in speed and agility, more CPU slot: 8/4/7, 7 turrets dronebay 125/150
It becomes a fleet brawler with more inbuilt ehp instead of an 8th low (no more jealous amarrians!) or versatile small gang BS with drones and utility high. Fits aesthetically with it's large bulk and visible dronebay.
Hyperion: attack battleship 5% rate of fire and 7.5% reps per level 6300/ 6500 / 7500 increase in speed and agility, stats adjusted (nerfed) to attack role slot: 8/5/6, 8 turrets dronebay 75/75
Yes, give them both a rate if fire bonus! It offsets the low amount of lowslots. With an increase in speed and the retention of it's 5th mid slot, the Hyperion can be fitted as an agile shield ganker or fast active armour tanker, using nano pump rigs rather than the trimarks that would cause the Megathron to perform poorly as a fast BS. It doesn't end up wasting a hull bonus in fleet fights it isn't designed for and remains the small scale ganker/tanker it is clearly meant to be. It looks more the part, since it's kinda like a larger Thorax aesthetically and in terms of being fast for it's class and being able to both shield and armour tank.
You could even just give Gallente three combat battleships. Please CCP listen to this guy, hes got EVERYTHING right, the aesthetic, the slots layout. If u think about it, Hyperion even got the High velocity helmsman for the recommended cert training which means ; its an attack ship! Please i beg u CCP , Please do it like Johnny Aideron said! Just going to throw my two cents in here and say that this DOES look like a good idea. Although I'm a bit concerned about the cap draw of a dual rep 8 turret Hyperion.
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Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 11:27:00 -
[1780] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: Just going to throw my two cents in here and say that this DOES look like a good idea. Although I'm a bit concerned about the cap draw of a dual rep 8 turret Hyperion.
Fleet ships realy dont need high utility slot. So Mega wuth 7-4-8 very cool. |
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Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 11:35:00 -
[1781] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote: With new layouts Mega is good fleet ship. Dont ruin it :)
But does it make sense to be taking an attack battleship and then slapping so many plates and trimarks on it than it can compete with an Abbadon in fleet brawling? It's a conceptual flaw in making the Megathron an attack battleship with ehp nerfs and agility buffs that are going to be ignored in favour of plating it anyway. |
Rukhsana Uxor
Legio Astorum
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 11:42:00 -
[1782] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:Rukhsana Uxor wrote: With new layouts Mega is good fleet ship. Dont ruin it :)
But does it make sense to be taking an attack battleship and then slapping on so many plates and trimarks that it can compete with an Abbadon in fleet brawling? It's a conceptual flaw in making the Megathron an attack battleship with ehp nerfs and agility buffs that are going to be ignored in favour of plating it anyway. CCP give you 1 more low slot to better variations. You can fit TE or 3 stabs or ECCM. You are not forcing to fit tank in all 8 low slots. With 1 TE and 2 TC mega have ~60 range with blaters. Its like Rokh.
Gallent need fleet ship. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
469
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 11:44:00 -
[1783] - Quote
Everyone trying to turn the hyperion back to what it was before, or asking for the utility high to be returned on the megathron are bad and should feel bad.
Never has there been a clearer differentiation between these two ships and similar ships in different roles.
More work on the domi needed I think:
Consider... The New Armageddon and Scorpion could be considered distruption ships with ewar bonuses and a reduction of a slot.
The Doninix on the other hand, doesn't have an ewar bonus. Perhaps this justification could be used to provide it with an additional high slot, turret slot and grid with the current set of bonuses intact?
This would allow an extra drone link to go along with sentry drone bonuses. Either-way, I don't think it's actually evolved much from the tier 1 bs it was, and provides an awkward set of features leave a little to be desired. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 11:59:00 -
[1784] - Quote
My concern with these ships is that they will succeed insofar as they have created viable pvp options, but in a manner that isn't true to the aesthetics and theme of these BS. I'm sure shield tanking artillery/neut domis, Hyperions with 6 turrets and agile "attack" megathrons weighed down with triple 1600 plates are all technically good, I see the advantages of them, I just don't like them and consider them to be a cop-out compared to making the classic conceptions of these ships good again. |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 12:00:00 -
[1785] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:Rukhsana Uxor wrote: With new layouts Mega is good fleet ship. Dont ruin it :)
But does it make sense to be taking an attack battleship and then slapping on so many plates and trimarks that it can compete with an Abbadon in fleet brawling? It's a conceptual flaw in making the Megathron an attack battleship with ehp nerfs and agility buffs that are going to be ignored in favour of plating it anyway.
This is what my thought exactly, its like trying to compete with Abaddon but less efficient (since the built in EHP does not compare with Abaddon) !!
Gallente need competitive fleet ship badly. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 12:52:00 -
[1786] - Quote
So, tinkering around with the potential of the new Hyperion, I've gotten it up to 142K EHP, or 125K with 80% resists across the board, dual prop, all while doing 1206 DPS (3% hardwirings). Completely ignoring the armour repair bonus of course
Could stick rails on it instead, but that's far too, Caldari.
I for one, will miss the utility of the Megathron as it was over the last 10 years (still think it needs to be 75/125 drones like the Kronos, or 100/100) but at least with the low slot change it means the Navy Megathron has to keep the extra highslot.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 13:18:00 -
[1787] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:ExAstra wrote: Just going to throw my two cents in here and say that this DOES look like a good idea. Although I'm a bit concerned about the cap draw of a dual rep 8 turret Hyperion.
Fleet ships realy dont need high utility slot. So Mega wuth 7-4-8 very cool. Sorry, post edited. I was more referring to swapping the roles of Hyperion and Megathron to Attack and Combat, respectively, and didn't pay much attention to all the extra changes proposed in the post. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 13:46:00 -
[1788] - Quote
The RoF bonus only gives you between 6 and 7% more gun dps over the damage bonus, and you've already lost your utility from before, and you'll probably have to make up the drone dps with the third mag stab, so you're not even sporting a better tank. Not to mention you'll be much more cap hungry which causes more headaches in longer fights.
I get that some people like this for rails, but frankly 6-7% more gun dps (concededly more with the 3rd mag stab, but then you're sporting a lackluster tank in comparison to a Rokh or an Abaddon, so is it really worth it?) is not worth nerfing the ship for low sec users and anyone who wants to fly blasters. |
Irya Boone
TIPIAKS
223
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 13:47:00 -
[1789] - Quote
Where is is the Electronic Warfare Bonus on the Dominix like on the scorpion or armageddon ?? !!! RENAME null sec systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome. Need Black Ops be able to FIT cover ops cloaking device !!! |
Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 13:55:00 -
[1790] - Quote
Railed wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:
Megathron:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +5% Falloff and Optimal range
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 600 CPU(+50) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 152(+37) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
I support this ship!
Keep the tracking bonus. Let the Rokh have the range bonus.
|
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Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:03:00 -
[1791] - Quote
OK I'm not very happy with the Hyperion I suggested in retrospect. I think the original CCP proposal for the Hyperion might have been OK if they added a bonus to armour rep capacitor use (in addition to repair amount) so that you could run two reps with a single injector. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
253
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:16:00 -
[1792] - Quote
Dear Fozzie and Rise,
I think you've made a mistake with your thought process on the Dominix.
CCP Rise, you said earlier on you expect the Domi to continue to use Hybrids despite losing the turret bonus. You are incorrect as you've forgotten the golden rule of fitting turret based ships:
If the ship doesn't have a racial turret bonus = fit projectiles.
Ergo, just like the Myrm is very frequently seen with projectiles over hybrids, the same will happen to the Domi.
I also seriously urge you to reconsider your choice to make it into a dedicated drone boat as it goes against all the previous designs for Tech 1 ships being more general use ships, and treads very heavily on the toes of the Tech 2 design, which calls for more specialisation.
I also think you're nerfing the drone use of the megathron too harshly, it should keep 125mbit bandwidth and 125m3 bay, drones ARE other Gallente weapons after all. The other changes to the Gal lineup are pretty aces though |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:18:00 -
[1793] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:OK I'm not very happy with the Hyperion I suggested in retrospect. I think the original CCP proposal for the Hyperion might have been OK if they added a bonus to armour rep capacitor use (in addition to repair amount) so that you could run two reps with a single injector.
I personally feel that all active tanking bonuses should come with a 4% or 5% reduction in cap consumption of armor/shield reppers per level.
|
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:35:00 -
[1794] - Quote
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:Throktar wrote:Megathron Loses a high, loses ehp, loses 50m3 of drone bandwidth and bay, in exchange for 7 ms a sec, and the ROF bonus change. I know it gets another low, but if you lose 2 heavy drones, you have to make your new low a mag stab just to even out with the same dps you just lost. This just doesn't get me excited at all. At the minimum can we have 25m3 of drone bw and bay back please?
CCP Rise, I really liked that 5th mid slot you added, I just wish you would have left that and given the utility high back to make it a 7/5/7 fit with minimum 100m3 drone bw and bay.
If I am wrong about any of this please respectfully point it out and tell me why. RoF bonus better than damage bonus, you know it right? DPS will not change a lot but we will have extra low for tank\TE\Magstab or ECCM. With new layouts Mega is good fleet ship. Dont ruin it :) Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus) Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)
Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:39:00 -
[1795] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote: RoF bonus better than damage bonus, you know it right? DPS will not change a lot but we will have extra low for tank\TE\Magstab or ECCM.
With new layouts Mega is good fleet ship. Dont ruin it :)
Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus) Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)
Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.[/quote]
Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all.
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Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:55:00 -
[1796] - Quote
Mate, learn to quote properly...
a) you've snipped all the bits from the other two posters. b) you've mis-quoted me.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:57:00 -
[1797] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Mate, learn to quote properly...
a) you've snipped all the bits from the other two posters. b) you've mis-quoted me.
missed a "[/quote]" All should be better now
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Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
253
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:03:00 -
[1798] - Quote
Hmm.
I wonder if it's time to reconsider the change to the game that resulted in a nearly hard coded limit of 5x active drones.
I think a dedicated drone boat using 10 active drones (restoring the old +1 Active Drone Per Level), could be very interesting as a Gallente racial flavour. Might be best reserved for T2 ships though.
I may miss the days where Drones and Drone Interfacing were 1+ Drone Controlled per level each, resulting nearly every ship fielding 10, and the drone ships that had the +1 Drone controlled per level having 15 on the field at once.
Would make for a very interesting Dominix though, and set it apart from the new 'Geddon. Same applies for Vexor/Arb and Myrm/Proph. |
Cambarus
Dark Energy.
321
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:13:00 -
[1799] - Quote
Roime wrote: 1) my fit has 84km drone control range, just add more DLAs, dps is lost only for the close range option 2) that's more than others 3) Tristan happens to be one of the best frigates atm
Because of it's superior tracking, flexibility and equal ability to brawl and snipe, it can shoot anything at any range.
You're not using it for anything anyway, just keep shooting pods and shuttles in Jita mate.
Domi will find it's uses in fleets, if CCP comes through with their plan to tweak with sentry drone usability.
1)Depends on skills, but now we're arguing about a <10km difference so w/e. 2)Until a single bomber drops all your damage, because sentries are still hilariously easy to pop and not so hilariously easy to replace. 3)Don't be dense, you and I both know that a tristan with 3 TCs would be largely useless.
Also, anything at any range? Sure, except anything past 100km or so, but we both know that fights never happen at that range :) It actually sounds a lot like the fleet tengu, but worse since it'll be the size of a barn, have worse resists, be much slower and have easily popped damage. |
Funky Lazers
shin-ra ltd
242
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:22:00 -
[1800] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Everyone trying to turn the hyperion back to what it was before, or asking for the utility high to be returned on the megathron are bad and should feel bad.
Sure thing. In this change Hyper looses 10% of gun DPS.
Increased Drone bay and bandwidth do not cover this DPS loss even remotely.
So basically after this patch Hyper will be just worse than before. Whatever. |
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smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:26:00 -
[1801] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:Where is is the Electronic Warfare Bonus on the Dominix like on the scorpion or armageddon ?? !!!
Can we please get away from the domi as THE ship of the gallente line up to get any such fictional E-War bonus...
Johnny Aideron wrote:OK I'm not very happy with the Hyperion I suggested in retrospect. I think the original CCP proposal for the Hyperion might have been OK if they added a bonus to armour rep capacitor use (in addition to repair amount) so that you could run two reps with a single injector.
You already can: From earlier in the thread
smoking gun81 wrote: OMG their has to be a consequence for your actions so obviously no you are not going to be stable ( however 2 x LAR's = 800 GJ over 15 seconds standard over the 10 seconds your injector cycles so if you are not shooting you can be stable injecting cap 800's ) you want to shoot MWD point and so on then something has to suffer.
And totally agree here:
Buzzmong wrote:I also think you're nerfing the drone use of the megathron too harshly, it should keep 125mbit bandwidth and 125m3 bay, drones ARE other Gallente weapons after all. The other changes to the Gal lineup are pretty aces though
If the mega takes a hit on its drone use I believe it should have an extra turret ( total of 8 turrets ) with a drone bay around the 50 - 75m3 mark and a bandwidth of 50 Mbit/sec with a slot loadout of 8-4-7. Hell you could even give the mega an E-War bonus something like: +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed and Large Hybrid Turret falloff per Level + 7.5% ( +10% would make it fall more inline with the Armageddon E-war bonus that everyone is so concerned about ) bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level
Askulf Joringer wrote: I personally feel that all active tanking bonuses should come with a 4% or 5% reduction in cap consumption of armor/shield reppers per level.
This comes from warfare links. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:27:00 -
[1802] - Quote
CCp should go back to the whole method 'gamers dont know what they want, we will give them ships and they will have to deal'
crying about projectiles having to be fit on dominix now? o yeah like amarr had to do for 6 years? |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 15:33:00 -
[1803] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote: Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus) Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)
Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.
Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all.
The third mag stab just puts you back to where we were with the current levels of dps, but with no utility and the same tank. If you use the extra slot for tank, you'll have the same dps as you would if you just used only 1 mag stab on the current version. Obviously the numbers are a bit different but we're only talking about a difference of maybe 30 dps. IMO it's not worth it to sacrifice the utility. I'd be fine with it if we got the 125mb bandwidth as well but by cutting the drone bay these changes just feel like a nerf. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 16:29:00 -
[1804] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:Everyone trying to turn the hyperion back to what it was before, or asking for the utility high to be returned on the megathron are bad and should feel bad. Sure thing. In this change Hyper looses 10% of gun DPS. Increased Drone bay and bandwidth do not cover this DPS loss even remotely. So basically after this patch Hyper will be just worse than before.
Stop being daft and fit a mag stab in the 7th low, omg, now it does more dps than before and you have a utility high, and two waves of light drones on top of your 5 heavies. Oh yeah, and it's easier to fit now because you only need to fit 6 guns instead of 8. Dual rep full ion setups with 2x heavy cap injectors and a heavy nuet will be possible for sure.
Stop being dumb people, Hyperion is getting buffed in it's intended role. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 16:33:00 -
[1805] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote: Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus) Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)
Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.
Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all. The third mag stab just puts you back to where we were with the current levels of dps, but with no utility and the same tank. If you use the extra slot for tank, you'll have the same dps as you would if you just used only 1 mag stab on the current version. Obviously the numbers are a bit different but we're only talking about a difference of maybe 30 dps. IMO it's not worth it to sacrifice the utility. I'd be fine with it if we got the 125mb bandwidth as well but by cutting the drone bay these changes just feel like a nerf.
The difference is the manner in which the dps is being delivered. Turret dps is > heavy drone dps. The reasons are numerous. As for the ship returning to 125m3, naaa, would be too much, 100m3 is far more reasonable.
Again people also seem to forget that the ship is getting faster which will allow for more time on target. While the overall applied dps advantage of this speed buff may not be significant, it's still present and if we are comparing values that are within a few % of each other in terms of raw dps, a few % more "applied" dmg in a fight due to decreased travel time should also not be scoffed at.
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Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 16:40:00 -
[1806] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote: Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus) Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)
Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.
Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all. You still snipped the context to which I was replying to but ok...
1270 DPS, 3 mag stab, 3 Ogre II's But noting this is at +33% increased cap usage.
Not as clear cut as some here are making out, yes it will be a buff to rail fits, but to blaster fits? debatable at best, though granted, needs the hind-sight of how fits might evolve in response.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 16:43:00 -
[1807] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote: Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus) Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)
Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.
Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all. You still snipped the context to which I was replying to but ok... 1270 DPS, 3 mag stab, 3 Ogre II's.
So more dps, more of it being turret dps, which then means the overheat value of the overall dps is inflated even more. Couple this with a reduction in travel time between targets and you're looking at a ship that is better at just about everything other than the loss of a utility high.
My point stands, people are being babies about the Megathron change. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 16:55:00 -
[1808] - Quote
Personally I'm not sold on the speed being all that much of an advantage. The idea of an "attack" battleship just seems already obsolete because of the attack battlecruisers. The speed would have to be much better than it is now to really give it an "attack" profile. I think they should not try and balance the BS based on roles and rather just make sure they make sense as individual ships. Roles are fine and dandy for cruisers and maybe even BCs but for BS you'd have to drastically change the stats for them to make sense in any role beyond heavy tank ewar or heavy combat. |
Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 17:08:00 -
[1809] - Quote
The idea seems to be that Gallente need an attack battleship (out of simple obligation to the roles format), the Megathron might be the least worst choice, therefore it gets to be the attack battleship. I'm not sure anybody who uses the Megathron is really interested in the extra agility and, indeed, the people who like the present proposal are mostly interested in turning the Megathron into a brick-plated competitor with the Abbadon, not a speed/agility competitor with the Tempest.
I think Gallente should have three combat battleships actually. |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 17:11:00 -
[1810] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Personally I'm not sold on the speed being all that much of an advantage. The idea of an "attack" battleship just seems already obsolete because of the attack battlecruisers. The speed would have to be much better than it is now to really give it an "attack" profile. I think they should not try and balance the BS based on roles and rather just make sure they make sense as individual ships. Roles are fine and dandy for cruisers and maybe even BCs but for BS you'd have to drastically change the stats for them to make sense in any role beyond heavy tank ewar or heavy combat.
There is no doubt that the increased speed will not be "game changing" However any speed advantage in terms of blaster usage is a dps buff in terms of fleet warfare. While nothing significant, it most certainly will have an impact of a few % more damage applied during a fight. Combined with the mega being more reliant on turrets than drones to achieve similar if not more dps than before it's going to do better.
The loss of the Nuet kind of sucks but I don't think it's nearly as significant as people are making it out to be. I'd rather fly the current proposal of the mega over the one that is live atm.
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 20:24:00 -
[1811] - Quote
Johnny Aideron wrote:The idea seems to be that Gallente need an attack battleship (out of simple obligation to the roles format), the Megathron might be the least worst choice, therefore it gets to be the attack battleship. I'm not sure anybody who uses the Megathron is really interested in the extra agility and, indeed, the people who like the present proposal are mostly interested in turning the Megathron into a brick-plated competitor with the Abbadon, not a speed/agility competitor with the Tempest.
I think Gallente should have three combat battleships actually.
just like it is right now then
the hype has the ehp of a combat bs and the speed on one
the mega has the slot layout of one (an attack brawler needs its neut)
and the domi has the speed and the fact it has to stay in the same spot to use its sentries Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
92
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 20:51:00 -
[1812] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:[quote=Johnny Aideron]
" the hype has the ehp of a combat bs and the speed on one
the mega has the slot layout of one (an attack brawler needs its neut)
and the domi has the speed and the fact it has to stay in the same spot to use its sentries .
One very big difference. In 99% of circumstances where the Hype will be flown it will have 1 or 2 reps.
Thus, a non-plated Hype will be as fast if not faster than any plated bs it wants to chase down and beat to death. it doesn't need the Attack designation to do the job. It just will. -1 gun and +1 low finally gives it the Pg to fit proper guns And tank.
8'th low on the Mega will let it do whatever you want it to. More DPS or better resists. Either way it will be fast enough to be effective.
AND, we still have the Navy Mega rebal coming soon.
Get ready to shake the dust off. We're useful again in 3,2,1.
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 21:24:00 -
[1813] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:
One very big difference. In 99% of circumstances where the Hype will be flown it will have 1 or 2 reps.
Thus, a non-plated Hype will be as fast if not faster than any plated bs it wants to chase down and beat to death. it doesn't need the Attack designation to do the job. It just will. -1 gun and +1 low finally gives it the Pg to fit proper guns And tank.
8'th low on the Mega will let it do whatever you want it to. More DPS or better resists. Either way it will be fast enough to be effective.
AND, we still have the Navy Mega rebal coming soon.
Get ready to shake the dust off. We're useful again in 3,2,1.
here is me hoping we get a hypeNI with falloff+damage and a domiNI with rep bonus Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
872
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 21:52:00 -
[1814] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I'll just reiterate my stance that the drone tracking and range bonus is not the [main] problem here. It's the Armageddon.
At close range a 'Geddon can do exactly what a Domi can do but better. And sniper sentryboats fits will underperform compared to sniper gunboats since sentry drones are immobile and can be lost. Yup, and the sentry drone returning wil be great for sentry drones of it can be done, but will not be the help the Dominix needs. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Tierere
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 00:09:00 -
[1815] - Quote
Well if the domi is going to be truly thought of as the dedicated drone boat, and is loosing its hybrid bonus and dps how about enabling it to fit one or more 'Drone Control Units' that would make me happy.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 00:26:00 -
[1816] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Yup, and the sentry drone returning wil be great for sentry drones of it can be done, but will not be the help the Dominix needs. Yeah would be great for sentries... but if they did, why would we ever use Heavies?
(And yes, some strange people use Heavy drones. In fact, I use them on a regular basis. Have done so for years. And amazingly they work, and actually blow stuff up. And by "stuff" I mean the ships of other players, both competent and incompetent. Which probably means I'm using them wrong, cuz everyone knows Heavy drones suck.)
As for whether or not "returning sentries" would help the Domi's "needs", I reckon that depends on what you determine those "needs" to be.
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GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 00:44:00 -
[1817] - Quote
Current Opinion
I honestly think i like the megathron more in its current configuration than the proposed configuration.
Pros and Cons of the Proposed Megathron: Pro 1 Extra Low Slot, Faster
Cons Loss of utility high, loss of drone bandwidth, Loss of Hitpoints, Less Cap stability due to RoF Bonus, Higher Cap useage due to RoF Bonus, Higher Ammo Consumption due to RoF Bonus, Loss Of utility High Slot.
The Mega should be the Combat BS and the Hyperion should be the attack BS. A Self Repping Blaster Ganking Ship does not need more hitpoints. The Megathrons's Tracking bonus makes it more suitable for a combat BS. Unless the megathron is going to go machariel speed it will never be fast enough to justify the the hitpoint deficiency you're imposing on it. Also if the Hyperion becomes the attack BS its slot layout provides it with the ability to shield gank fit.
Also on the launcher hard point removal, there is no reason to remove it. It rarely ever serves any purpose, its only real purpose is some kind of judo bait fit making someone think LOL hes attacking me with a launcher causing them to aggress or otherwise splatter themselves upon your clever trolling fit. The only real reason to remove it is for the sake of removing it, which isnt really a reason at all.
Also if you're going with the removal of a high for the low suggest doing what you did with the Hyperion and drop it to 6 turrets and give it more DMG / ROF bonus to balance it out and preserve the utility high.
I can see where the dev team is having issues distinguising each of these ships to their own rights as they have forever been similiar. I do not agree with the directions you're taking because i feel you're changing them primarily to be different from each other rather than what they should be as themselves. The Hyperion is historically a very nich role's and proposed changes will set it above the megathron in most situation which i feel is wrong.
I feel as if ive properly conveyed my dismay for the proposed megathron changes, but just to be clear here is another paragraph. The current megathron is better than these proposed changes, the proposed changes are primarily to make it different from the hyperion, this is a scheme to make people go buy hyperion bpo's, long live the megathron, just delete the hyperion so the megathron can be what it is meant to be.
V/R GeeBee |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2208
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 02:59:00 -
[1818] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Yup, and the sentry drone returning wil be great for sentry drones of it can be done, but will not be the help the Dominix needs. Yeah would be great for sentries... but if they did, why would we ever use Heavies? (And yes, some strange people use Heavy drones. In fact, I use them on a regular basis. Have done so for years. And amazingly they work, and actually blow stuff up. And by "stuff" I mean the ships of other players, both competent and incompetent. Which probably means I'm using them wrong, cuz everyone knows Heavy drones suck.) Indeed. This is a problem.
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:As for whether or not "returning sentries" would help the Domi's "needs", I reckon that depends on what you determine those "needs" to be. The current proposed bonus for the Dominix implies the use of Sentry Drones at range... which appears to be good on paper but falls flat when reality is applied.
What is the reality? Sentry drones are stationary... but sniper fleets must remain mobile to mitigate incoming damage and warp away if something lands on them. That means as soon as you deploy sentry drones you move away from them... and you may not return to the same spot to collect them... which means those drones are as good as lost. And the Dominix only has enough room for 2 sets of "spares." The alternative to this is that the Dominix simply stand still with its sentries and soak up any damage directed at it... however, in this situation the Armageddon would be a clearly superior choice as it can tank more Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
873
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 03:52:00 -
[1819] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Yup, and the sentry drone returning wil be great for sentry drones of it can be done, but will not be the help the Dominix needs. Yeah would be great for sentries... but if they did, why would we ever use Heavies? (And yes, some strange people use Heavy drones. In fact, I use them on a regular basis. Have done so for years. And amazingly they work, and actually blow stuff up. And by "stuff" I mean the ships of other players, both competent and incompetent. Which probably means I'm using them wrong, cuz everyone knows Heavy drones suck.) IMO Heavy drones are good for anything within T2 Web range, and I as well use them for this purpose. With 2 T2 OTLs a Garde II can usually hit around 15k with decent accuracy still, which makes a small window of trouble between +10k and 15K.
Vladimir Norkoff wrote: As for whether or not "returning sentries" would help the Domi's "needs", I reckon that depends on what you determine those "needs" to be.
The reason they would not help put the Dominix on a competitive level with the Armageddon is they would effect all ships with a bandwidth of (I would say) 75Mbps equally. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Drunken Bum
103
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 04:14:00 -
[1820] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:CCp should go back to the whole method 'gamers dont know what they want, we will give them ships and they will have to deal'
crying about projectiles having to be fit on dominix now? o yeah like amarr had to do for 6 years? Yeah that obviously didnt work. Hence why all ships are currently being redesigned. Spare some change?-á |
|
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 08:51:00 -
[1821] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Hmm.
I wonder if it's time to reconsider the change to the game that resulted in a nearly hard coded limit of 5x active drones.
I think a dedicated drone boat using 10 active drones (restoring the old +1 Active Drone Per Level), could be very interesting as a Gallente racial flavour. Might be best reserved for T2 ships though.
I may miss the days where Drones and Drone Interfacing were 1+ Drone Controlled per level each, resulting nearly every ship fielding 10, and the drone ships that had the +1 Drone controlled per level having 15 on the field at once.
Would make for a very interesting Dominix though, and set it apart from the new 'Geddon. Same applies for Vexor/Arb and Myrm/Proph. I think, but it's so long ago now that I'm not sure, that the server is mature enough to probably be able to take such a bonus on T2 ships, and I think it would be a perfect way of establishing the true Gallente 'colours' through the CreoDron line.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 08:53:00 -
[1822] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:Personally I'm not sold on the speed being all that much of an advantage. The idea of an "attack" battleship just seems already obsolete because of the attack battlecruisers. The speed would have to be much better than it is now to really give it an "attack" profile. I think they should not try and balance the BS based on roles and rather just make sure they make sense as individual ships. Roles are fine and dandy for cruisers and maybe even BCs but for BS you'd have to drastically change the stats for them to make sense in any role beyond heavy tank ewar or heavy combat. The loss of the Nuet kind of sucks but I don't think it's nearly as significant as people are making it out to be. I'd rather fly the current proposal of the mega over the one that is live atm. I have to ask this, and it's not to be a 'douche' but, do you fly the Megathron on TQ?
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Carka Gerschen
Ubiquitous Hurt
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 09:20:00 -
[1823] - Quote
Goodmorning,
After reading through the changes to the Gallente battleship line, I really think I must be completely different then most, since I always use the utility high on my megathron for a neut. If you do solo or duo roams in battleships you really need that utility high to deal with frigates and the current megathron is perfect for that role with the standard 2 plates, 2 eanm, 2 magstabs, 1 dc, scam, web, cap injector and mwd. I don't think trading the utility for an extra low is a good idea, in fact I quite hate losing a utility high, since that makes you completely vulnurable against a lot of smaller ships. I can see it working in a bigger fleet, but let's not focus everything on the bigger fleet fights for once.
I don't have much to say about the Hyperion, the changes look good, but I have never flown it.
The dominix on the other hand, I am afraid the only thing we will see is less diversity with the dominix. Remote rep domis and neut domis will be the only thing worth fitting, I am afraid. Or people go with projetile turrets and do we really need another ship without the traditional race's weapons? Eventhough I think the tracking could be nice in bigger fleet where everybody is using sentries, it kinda ruins the domi a bit for solo use.
Just my opinion,
regards,
Carka |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 09:40:00 -
[1824] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:Personally I'm not sold on the speed being all that much of an advantage. The idea of an "attack" battleship just seems already obsolete because of the attack battlecruisers. The speed would have to be much better than it is now to really give it an "attack" profile. I think they should not try and balance the BS based on roles and rather just make sure they make sense as individual ships. Roles are fine and dandy for cruisers and maybe even BCs but for BS you'd have to drastically change the stats for them to make sense in any role beyond heavy tank ewar or heavy combat. The loss of the Nuet kind of sucks but I don't think it's nearly as significant as people are making it out to be. I'd rather fly the current proposal of the mega over the one that is live atm. I have to ask this, and it's not to be a 'douche' but, do you fly the Megathron on TQ?
Yes, I most certainly do. I stand by my point, People are being babies about the change atm.
I don't really understand why you ask the question though... Is it because my opinion of the change differs from yourself? Thus I must be full of it to stand by that opinion? The only change I see at all reasonable to the proposed mega is to maybe increase the drone bandwidth back to 100m3. Other than that, I'd much rather have the current bonus layout, mobility buff and slot layout in exchange for the loss of the utility high.
|
Laura Belle
Vectis Covert Solutions
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 10:19:00 -
[1825] - Quote
TeeKay Latef wrote:Quote:Hyperion[...] Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers You forgot -1 launcher!
didn't they say 6 5 7 ? |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
83
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 10:25:00 -
[1826] - Quote
CCP Is there any chance of getting that lowslot moved to a mid on the megathron at all i think the option to shield tank nano it is its best option since it has the worst range and tank of all battleships?... oo and all attack bs need much more mobility? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 10:57:00 -
[1827] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Askulf Joringer wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:Personally I'm not sold on the speed being all that much of an advantage. The idea of an "attack" battleship just seems already obsolete because of the attack battlecruisers. The speed would have to be much better than it is now to really give it an "attack" profile. I think they should not try and balance the BS based on roles and rather just make sure they make sense as individual ships. Roles are fine and dandy for cruisers and maybe even BCs but for BS you'd have to drastically change the stats for them to make sense in any role beyond heavy tank ewar or heavy combat. The loss of the Nuet kind of sucks but I don't think it's nearly as significant as people are making it out to be. I'd rather fly the current proposal of the mega over the one that is live atm. I have to ask this, and it's not to be a 'douche' but, do you fly the Megathron on TQ? Yes, I most certainly do. I stand by my point, People are being babies about the change atm. I don't really understand why you ask the question though... Is it because my opinion of the change differs from yourself? Thus I must be full of it to stand by that opinion? The only change I see at all reasonable to the proposed mega is to maybe increase the drone bandwidth back to 100m3. Other than that, I'd much rather have the current bonus layout, mobility buff and slot layout in exchange for the loss of the utility high. Because calling people 'babies', who more than likely have more experience in their little finger, of flying Megathrons than yourself, is not constructive.
Loss of the utility high is very significant for a lot of the blaster fits.
Now having said that, nothing is going to stop me flying the ship that's been my 'darling' these past 9 years, I've already got modified fits in mind.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 12:37:00 -
[1828] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Because calling people 'babies', who more than likely have more experience in their little finger, of flying Megathrons than yourself, is not constructive.
Loss of the utility high is very significant for a lot of the blaster fits.
Now having said that, nothing is going to stop me flying the ship that's been my 'darling' these past 9 years, I've already got modified fits in mind.
Well allot of the people are being babies, if you want to take that as a slight against you then go for it. You're comments show that you've somehow taken my comments personally, thus you're also being a baby.
As for the loss of the utility high... This is significant however the ship changes easily make up for it. More turret dps is a big advantage, less drone dps is a disadvantage however nothing really that significant. Heavies have a long travel time and even with similar levels of dps between the post and pre change mega, the post change will be doing far more dmg in an actual fight. If you have trouble understanding this then I cannot help you. Increased speed, while not significant IS an advantage as well which will allow for more dps to be applied during almost any kind of engagement other than maybe fighting at undock.
As for my experience with a mega... I've been playing since closed beta brah |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 13:04:00 -
[1829] - Quote
Not taken personally, the original reply you quoted was my explaining where the DPS changes. As I said, for Rail boats, a boost, for blaster boats, not that straightforward with the changes. As I said further to that, for me personally won't change my flying Megathrons the way they should be, blaster fit.
Take this personally if you wish, but I'm pointing out that you come across as an unconstructive scrub.
And, suurrre you're a beta player - if you were, you'd have no need to hide behind an alt in a constructive balancing thread
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
475
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 13:20:00 -
[1830] - Quote
I don't understand why any Megathron Blaster pilot wouldn't instantly switch to the Hyperion now. Clinging to it, and then complaining that it doesn't do exactly what you wanted it to do or what you now is silly. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
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smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 13:45:00 -
[1831] - Quote
Laura Belle wrote:TeeKay Latef wrote:Quote:Hyperion[...] Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers You forgot -1 launcher! didn't they say 6 5 7 ?
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers
Prehaps both of you should read the OP again to straighten things out regarding slot layouts.
Jonas Sukarala wrote:CCP Is there any chance of getting that lowslot moved to a mid on the megathron at all i think the option to shield tank nano it is its best option since it has the worst range and tank of all battleships?... oo and all attack bs need much more mobility?
Also a lot more EHP is needed surely the double HP each class of ship should be followed here....
Gallente = armor get over it you want a shield based blaster boat go rokh...
Gallente need an 8 weapon BS platform just like all the others ( Maelstrom, Typhoon, Abaddon, Apocalypse, Rokh, post patch ). Can the Gallente only count to 7 when it comes to BS weapons ?? Now the hype has gone from 8 to 6 weapons the Gallente are the only race without an 8 racial weapon slot boat and with CCP wanting to focus the mega to being a " dedicated gun boat " an 8th turret slot does that keep the 8 high slots just go +1 turret -1 launcher staying with the TQ slot layout of 8-4-7.
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 13:55:00 -
[1832] - Quote
[Jonas Sukarala wrote: CCP Is there any chance of getting that lowslot moved to a mid on the megathron at all i think the option to shield tank nano it is its best option since it has the worst range and tank of all battleships?... oo and all attack bs need much more mobility?
Also a lot more EHP is needed surely the double HP each class of ship should be followed here....
Yes because rokhs are so mobile and do tons of dps :P 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:12:00 -
[1833] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote: Gallente need an 8 weapon BS platform just like all the others ( Maelstrom, Typhoon, Abaddon, Apocalypse, Rokh, post patch ).
I think that's the point. Even having the most powerful raw-DPS weapon, he needs to have 8 slots. And then, if some people (as this thread has stated) want to use one of the high-slots as utility slot, they are free to do it. We need at least 1 ship with 8 high slots. The problem of the blasters (and Gallente is blaster, more than railgun, platform) is that they have the worst close range. So with the 8 slots they can compete with the rest of the BS's. The main problem of the Gallente boats will be to put modules in the mids-lows to effectively apply this uber damage, but the fact to be a powerful gun system it's not a reason to drop 1 high-slot. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:14:00 -
[1834] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:Yes because rokhs are so mobile and do tons of dps :P
Go poast to the caldari thread about how un happy you are with it instead of trying to give evey gallente BS hull 5 mids.
As stated gallente = armor so if you want to try to shiled tank a gallente ship you should do so within the restrictions of the hulls. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:19:00 -
[1835] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:Yes because rokhs are so mobile and do tons of dps :P Go poast to the caldari thread about how un happy you are with it instead of trying to give evey gallente BS hull 5 mids. As stated gallente = armor so if you want to try to shiled tank a gallente ship you should do so within the restrictions of the hulls.
The problem of Gallente is, to be precise, this: they are blaster boats, dependent of the range more than other platforms, and they are armor boats. And with armor boats the best fits (for EHP purposes) are those that slow down the speed (you know, Pumps, 1600mm's and stuff like that). My fitting some pages ago, that don't slow down the speed for this attack Mega, only have <75K EHP, kind of ridiculous. In addition, they were not the fastest ships. I think they have done a great advance rising up the velocity of the Gallente boats, but Dominix. Maybe the Hyperion is still slow being a blaster boat. But Dominix is the rare ship in this situation. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:27:00 -
[1836] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:Yes because rokhs are so mobile and do tons of dps :P Go poast to the caldari thread about how un happy you are with it instead of trying to give evey gallente BS hull 5 mids. As stated gallente = armor so if you want to try to shiled tank a gallente ship you should do so within the restrictions of the hulls. The problem of Gallente is, to be precise, this: they are blaster boats, dependent of the range more than other platforms, and they are armor boats. And with armor boats the best fits (for EHP purposes) are those that slow down the speed (you know, Pumps, 1600mm's and stuff like that). My fitting some pages ago, that don't slow down the speed for this attack Mega, only have <75K EHP, kind of ridiculous. In addition, they were not the fastest ships. I think they have done a great advance rising up the velocity of the Gallente boats, but Dominix. Maybe the Hyperion is still slow being a blaster boat. But Dominix is the rare ship in this situation.
That is why ( like yourself some pages back ) I suggested ship stats as follows:
smoking gun81 wrote: +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed and Large Hybrid Turret falloff per Level. + 7.5% ( +10% would make it fall more inline with the Armageddon E-war bonus that everyone is so concerned about ) bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level.
|
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:36:00 -
[1837] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:Yes because rokhs are so mobile and do tons of dps :P Go poast to the caldari thread about how un happy you are with it instead of trying to give evey gallente BS hull 5 mids. As stated gallente = armor so if you want to try to shiled tank a gallente ship you should do so within the restrictions of the hulls. The problem of Gallente is, to be precise, this: they are blaster boats, dependent of the range more than other platforms, and they are armor boats. And with armor boats the best fits (for EHP purposes) are those that slow down the speed (you know, Pumps, 1600mm's and stuff like that). My fitting some pages ago, that don't slow down the speed for this attack Mega, only have <75K EHP, kind of ridiculous. In addition, they were not the fastest ships. I think they have done a great advance rising up the velocity of the Gallente boats, but Dominix. Maybe the Hyperion is still slow being a blaster boat. But Dominix is the rare ship in this situation. That is why ( like yourself some pages back ) I suggested ship stats as follows: smoking gun81 wrote: +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed and Large Hybrid Turret falloff per Level. + 7.5% ( +10% would make it fall more inline with the Armageddon E-war bonus that everyone is so concerned about ) bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level.
The problem of this will be that you will have a cheap copy of an old Minmatar BS, with a Neutron Blaster Cannon II at lvl5 with 13,75 km of Falloff. And less tank as they don't use cap and can use it all for the XL-SB http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:56:00 -
[1838] - Quote
Plated armour boats at a battleship level is a conflicting model it makes no sense..... Hyperion isn't so affected as the change to armour repping rigs helps there cause along with the extra tankiness helps it survive and probably do well with null. But the megathron with multiple plates and trimarks just kills its role entirely it needs to be a shield nano blasterboat for void to work fully. At least the Rokh has optimal range bonus and lots of tank to help its cause although it should get a mobility buff too.
I would also like to add the navy brutix to this problem as it can tank just as-well (lower sig too) and is much more mobile. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 15:09:00 -
[1839] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: The problem of this will be that you will have a cheap copy of an old Minmatar BS, with a Neutron Blaster Cannon II at lvl5 with 13,75 km of Falloff. And less tank as they don't use cap and can use it all for the XL-SB
Gallente are dependant ( just like the ammar ) on cap to fire so no you can not use it all for XL-SB's and to remove the RoF bonus is good IMO ( making the mega too cap hungry is bad voodoo ).
On the case of fall off I don't see it being such a problem as you are making out, the one thing I have been taking away from this thread is " the mega has a small engagement range " and while the extra 2.3 - 2.4 k fall off for void and 6.7 - 6.8 k fall off for null would help this I don't believe it will brake the game. |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 15:38:00 -
[1840] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:I don't understand why any Megathron Blaster pilot wouldn't instantly switch to the Hyperion now. Clinging to it, and then complaining that it doesn't do exactly what you wanted it to do or what you now is silly.
There are a few points to consider. First is cost, both pre and post Odyssey.
ATM Hype's run 235+, Mega's 135'ish. Post Odyssey is a real guess.
Given the current meta's propensity toward logi and buffer tanking the Mega will be more popular than ever. The new layout lets it do Everything, and do it pretty well overall.
All things being equal, if the re-bal brings all the ships to market at @ 140 i'd predict Mega - Hype - Domi as the new order of things.
The Mega will remain a 2 to 1 favorite due to it's flexibility and just the fact that it's X times more sexy. At the right price however the Hype will easily replace the Domi as Gal's pre-eminent PvE boat. The rep bonus by itself will make it worth it. Combined with the gun bonus and the new drone bay there's just no question. Hype is better for PvE ( possibly the best non-faction PvE ship atm ).
As a PvP platform the new improved Hype does everything the current Mega does, and imo does it a bit better. It doesn't however do what the new improved Mega does, which is good balance.
If you Absolutely have to have a neut on your mega start lobbying now for an 8-4-8 Navy with a bit of an LP nerf to make them more affordable. GL though. I'm 99% sure the 7-5-8 lobby is gonna beat you 5 v 1.
Only big question right now is how much does the Hype come down in build costs to make it popular vs how much do the Mega and Domi go up to balance things.
|
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Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 16:47:00 -
[1841] - Quote
I wanted to write a summation of what I think overall most people want:
1) They Hyper is fine but the Rep bonus needs to be changed. I have seen some great ideas such as MWD/AB speed increase, Web Range increase, Scram range increase, or even a Falloff/Optimal range bonus. The current rep bonus really does exclude this ship from fleets and needs to be changed. (if you like a tank bonus just make it have resist bonuses)
2) The Mega it seems that most people really want to have 5 Mids instead over the 8 lows (this will make it able to be fit in ship doctrines). To offset the loss of required 3rd Mag Stab to put the ship back where it was in DPS it will need get back more drones. The new ROF bonus though seems good also comes with huge cap problems and this needs to be addressed along with CPU issues. I have also seen some recommendations about changing the tracking bonus with falloff/optimal bonus and web range bonuses. Simply put, this is the most iconic Gallente ship and really time and effort needs to be made in making it useful. It was the BS that made me want to play the game all those years ago.
3) The Domi, well first I just want to say the hull graphics need to be changed ASAP it is just terrible and many refuse to fly it because of that. The current changes in the Domi really dont work at all. Sniper drone ships don't work because you have to move so much but sentries are stationary. IF you are going to change the bonuses from hybrid turrets the you really need to give it more versatility. I have seen many ideas posted in here but giving a MWD speed bonus is also important, EWAR bonus is needed and possibly giving it a drone repair bonus. I would also remove 2 turret slots (giving it 4 turret slots but still 6 highs) and increasing the drone damage to 15%. This will truly make it a drone boat.
The changes are getting there but we need some more tweaks. I have not seen a Gallente BS in any fleet doctrines that I know of and we need to change this. |
AstraPardus
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 17:09:00 -
[1842] - Quote
So, give the gunboat 6 turrets and a utility high (that never would have been used) and give the multi-role 7 turrets and take away the utility high (that apparently never gets used....)?
Wait, what? o__O
I personally think the Hyperion should stay an 8 turret boat...what would one put in the 'utility high' on a Hyperion that they wouldn't on a Megathron...?
The changes to the other two ships are good, but the Hyperion changes are making me scowl. 3: Every time I post is Pardy time! :3 |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 17:24:00 -
[1843] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:I wanted to write a summation of what I think overall most people want:
1) They Hyper is fine but the Rep bonus needs to be changed. I have seen some great ideas such as MWD/AB speed increase, Web Range increase, Scram range increase, or even a Falloff/Optimal range bonus. The current rep bonus really does exclude this ship from fleets and needs to be changed. (if you like a tank bonus just make it have resist bonuses)
2) The Mega it seems that most people really want to have 5 Mids instead over the 8 lows (this will make it able to be fit in ship doctrines). To offset the loss of required 3rd Mag Stab to put the ship back where it was in DPS it will need get back more drones. The new ROF bonus though seems good also comes with huge cap problems and this needs to be addressed along with CPU issues. I have also seen some recommendations about changing the tracking bonus with falloff/optimal bonus and web range bonuses. Simply put, this is the most iconic Gallente ship and really time and effort needs to be made in making it useful. It was the BS that made me want to play the game all those years ago.
3) The Domi, well first I just want to say the hull graphics need to be changed ASAP it is just terrible and many refuse to fly it because of that. The current changes in the Domi really dont work at all. Sniper drone ships don't work because you have to move so much but sentries are stationary. IF you are going to change the bonuses from hybrid turrets the you really need to give it more versatility. I have seen many ideas posted in here but giving a MWD speed bonus is also important, EWAR bonus is needed and possibly giving it a drone repair bonus. I would also remove 2 turret slots (giving it 4 turret slots but still 6 highs) and increasing the drone damage to 15%. This will truly make it a drone boat.
The changes are getting there but we need some more tweaks. I have not seen a Gallente BS in any fleet doctrines that I know of and we need to change this. Okay, so basically. Make the Hyperion and the Megathron 7/5/7 ships with different bonuses so both can be considered for large fleets? I have to say that's not what I'd have in mind.
The way I see it, the 7/5/7 Hyperion w/Damage&Rep is fine. This turns it into a ship that hits hard and can keep itself going for a bit of time. The biggest problem with it is this "Combat" role crap. Turn it into the "Attack" role line (give it a bit less raw hp, boost that speed), leave its bonuses alone, fix active armor tanking, and the Hyperion becomes a great solo/small gang ship that fights like a demon and can keep itself rampaging for a short period of time. You won't feel the need to slap speed reducing modules like trimarks on it because it becomes a brawler that is also it's own Logistics. Dual rep, resists, tracking, and power. With that extra 7th low and the Armor Rep rig change it helps put it in a better spot (maybe needs a smidgen more PG?). Change the armor rep bonus to include LARs and you can make some nice Hype Duos but I'm not sure about the balance on that. The Hyperion doesn't need such a big drone bay either. 100mbit/125m3 would be all right by me.
The 7/4/8 Megathron is okay, but it's a bit weird for Gallente. Swap it over to the combat role so we don't feel so bad slamming it with trimarks, 1600s, and EANMs. And give it a more respectable drone bay. And a smidgen more CPU, doesn't have to be much.
And as for the Dominix... a MWD bonus? I really don't think so. Give it a 10% to Drone Effectiveness (HP, Range, Damage, etc.) to give its sentries the benefit they NEED (control range - and it'd still be a max of 90km at all V) and to help turn it into a pure drone boat, then the second bonus is pretty much flavor.
I'm not sure if I like the Hyperion as the Attack and Mega as the Combat based on hull looks, as they both look pretty sleek and fast, but with the proposed balance changes it just makes the most sense. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 17:43:00 -
[1844] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:
1) They Hyper is fine but the Rep bonus needs to be changed. I have seen some great ideas such as MWD/AB speed increase, Web Range increase, Scram range increase, or even a Falloff/Optimal range bonus. The current rep bonus really does exclude this ship from fleets and needs to be changed. (if you like a tank bonus just make it have resist bonuses)
The rep bonus gives it a nice place in small gang or even solo fleets where logistics is at a premium if at all present. A resit bonus would encroach into the realms of ammar and caldari making them races loose their place IMO.
Broxus Maximas wrote:
2) The Mega it seems that most people really want to have 5 Mids instead over the 8 lows (this will make it able to be fit in ship doctrines). To offset the loss of required 3rd Mag Stab to put the ship back where it was in DPS it will need get back more drones. The new ROF bonus though seems good also comes with huge cap problems and this needs to be addressed along with CPU issues. I have also seen some recommendations about changing the tracking bonus with falloff/optimal bonus and web range bonuses. Simply put, this is the most iconic Gallente ship and really time and effort needs to be made in making it useful. It was the BS that made me want to play the game all those years ago.
The only argument I have seen for a 5th mid slot is for shield tanking an armor ship. Doctrine oohh dear god doctrine please do not impose your corp or alliance fitting ideas as a good point for balance or change. Yes the RoF bonus brings with it cap problems that is why one of my previous recommendations was a change to the ship skill bonus:
+ 7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed and Large Hybrid Turret falloff per Level. + 7.5% ( +10% ) bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level.
A web bonus would encroach on the vindicators territory and would not be in line with what CCP are doing to the Armageddon ( range over performance ). The main points of gallente have always been ( hybrids, drones, sensor damps and warp scrambler and warp disruptor range ) taking this into account if any gallente ship takes a E-War bonus it should be the warp scrambler and warp disruptor range bonus ( no pirate faction bonus ).
Broxus Maximas wrote: The changes are getting there but we need some more tweaks. I have not seen a Gallente BS in any fleet doctrines that I know of and we need to change this.
Again doctrine is what you, your alliance or corp impose and is more about range and / or EHP profile and / or agility.
From my experience with the mega it is more about range that the above listed ship bonus changes would fix ( an optimal range bonus would encroach into the rokh's realm ) and having the Scrambler and disruptor bonus would give the mega the ability to grab and move into its blaster range.
Even if CCP brought the E-War bonus to the mega a 5th mid slot would make this bonus OP along with leaving it with an 8th low slot this extra slot has to go somewhere again why I suggested leaving it as a high just add a turret so we can have 8 of them now the hype has been reduced to 6 turrets. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 18:45:00 -
[1845] - Quote
I wasn't taking about giving the Domi the MWD speed buff but the drones so that Heavy Drones get some benefit.
Also, I have never heard of Gallente BS in any corp/alliance doctrines. I am not just talking about my own.
Other than that the ideas I posted are a summary of what most have said in these posts. Most would agree that the current active rep bonus is rather limiting and should be changed. Most want a 5th Mid on the Mega and drones back. Most want the ugly domi changed and it to be more rounded than a sentry sniper boat that does not work. Other skills vary but that's the real issues along with the fact the Gallente have no fleet ships and the current changes don't change this. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 19:00:00 -
[1846] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: The problem of this will be that you will have a cheap copy of an old Minmatar BS, with a Neutron Blaster Cannon II at lvl5 with 13,75 km of Falloff. And less tank as they don't use cap and can use it all for the XL-SB
Gallente are dependant ( just like the ammar ) on cap to fire so no you can not use it all for XL-SB's and to remove the RoF bonus is good IMO ( making the mega too cap hungry is bad voodoo ). On the case of fall off I don't see it being such a problem as you are making out, the one thing I have been taking away from this thread is " the mega has a small engagement range " and while the extra 2.3 - 2.4 k fall off for void and 6.7 - 6.8 k fall off for null would help this I don't believe it will brake the game.
I mean that to have a cheap and bad copy of a Minmatar BS you better maintain the role of the Gallente, so you forget, as you have said, the RoF bonus they are thinking to put. See that all these pages have been to discuss the slots question. Some people argue that the RoF bonus is not adequate for the Gallente cap-hungry ships (and I agree with that), so if we agree that the bonuses are not the problem (not the problem talking about the actual ones) and we almost always talk about the slots, you better give what the people demands in the slots matter and problem solved. As for the slots matters, I argue for 8-4-8. The 8 lows will give the versatility that Gallente needs, and the 4 mids will give MWD / Scram / Web / other-thing (whatever you want to put). The 8 highs will give the possibility to fit 7 weapons and the utility slot that all the people is talking about being removed in the Mega. Why maintain the 7 weapons system if you now have more speed? For the nerfed damage of the drones. So: - New dronebay with 8-4-8 or - Old dronebay with 7-4-8 http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 19:06:00 -
[1847] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote: Gallente need an 8 weapon BS platform just like all the others ( Maelstrom, Typhoon, Abaddon, Apocalypse, Rokh, post patch ). Actually, no. No they don't. You are fixated on an arbitrary number that means nothing. They just need a ship with the same amount of effective turrets. What would be ideal is a Gallente BS with only one turret and a ridiculous damage bonus on it - uses less cap, lasts longer overheated, uses less ammo.
|
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 19:13:00 -
[1848] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:smoking gun81 wrote: Gallente need an 8 weapon BS platform just like all the others ( Maelstrom, Typhoon, Abaddon, Apocalypse, Rokh, post patch ). Actually, no. No they don't. You are fixated on an arbitrary number that means nothing. They just need a ship with the same amount of effective turrets. What would be ideal is a Gallente BS with only one turret and a ridiculous damage bonus on it - uses less cap, lasts longer overheated, uses less ammo.
We query for a 8th high-slot as we are not discussing about fixing the hybrids (or the blasters in our context). As we are not discussing this, and we count with the comparation of other BS's, and WE AREN'T talking about rise up the damage bonus that actualy some Gallente boats have, we request for that 8th slot. As I have said, after that we will have the problem to fitting the ship to effectively apply that damage. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 19:52:00 -
[1849] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: I mean that to have a cheap and bad copy of a Minmatar BS you better maintain the role of the Gallente, so you forget, as you have said, the RoF bonus they are thinking to put.
I have not forgotten it I replaced it for the + 7.5% ( +10% ) bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level making it able to hold onto its target and the fall off to hit slightly further.
Phoenix Torp wrote:See that all these pages have been to discuss the slots question.
I thought we was discussing gallente changes for odessey ship bonus, ship stats and slot layout arguments for and against such changes and to have our input into these changes.
Phoenix Torp wrote:you better give what the people demands in the slots matter and problem solved.
people are stupid and the person is smart there are documented cases showing how the crowd can mess with your ideas (as an individual ) and as such will dismiss calls for a set slot layout from such masses.
Phoenix Torp wrote:The 8 highs will give the possibility to fit 7 weapons and the utility slot that all the people is talking about being removed in the Mega. Why maintain the 7 weapons system if you now have more speed? For the nerfed damage of the drones.
The utility is now the hyp's. I don't believe the +7m/s is enough for the mega
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Actually, no. No they don't. You are fixated on an arbitrary number that means nothing. If it is so arbitrary why not have 8 turrets, my hope for 8 turrets was in an attempt to ballence out the RoF bonus I suggested in removing in favour for the ship bonus I put forward earlier. |
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
211
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 22:03:00 -
[1850] - Quote
Just tossing it out there : Would it be practical to make the 7.5% bonus for armor rep also be a bonus to remote rep. Bringing back the days of old remote repair battle ships gangs.
this may move the Battle ships more synergistic group ship vs a solo ship. In turn makes pilots do more than Target hit F1. When they are also reparing. a team mate..... Sorry Joe didn't mean to shoot you, I was trying to repair you
Makes better small gang PVP and better bomb targets.
Just tossing it out there. Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
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William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 00:40:00 -
[1851] - Quote
Still waiting on that role swap between Hype and Mega, CCP. This is the most logical way if u think about it carefully. I'll leave the slots layout and bonus to you guys but please, just please swap the roles already!
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Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 02:09:00 -
[1852] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Take this personally if you wish, but I'm pointing out that you come across as an unconstructive scrub. And, suurrre you're a beta player - if you were, you'd have no need to hide behind an alt in a constructive balancing thread
So supporting the current proposed change is unconstructive? The only reason you define it as such is because you disagree with my opinion.
As for you not believing the fact that I played during closed beta, I really don't care what you think truth is the truth. If you want to believe it or not is on you.
The reality is that the new mega proposal Will be doing more dps int he vast majority of situations, even with 2 mag stabs. Turret dps is > drone dps. Reasons are rather obvious. The extra low, which would enable a 3rd mag stab puts the eft paper dps well in favor of the new mega, and the fact that a much larger portion of the damage is coming from guns compared to the pre nerf mega only further exaggerates this. The only real draw backs are the loss of the nuet and the increased cap consumption tied in with the rof bonus. As far as cap consumption goes... A heavy cap injector is WAY more than enough cap to keep the ship running so this draw back in cap consumption is really not as significant as people are making it out to be...
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Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 02:53:00 -
[1853] - Quote
So how much did the facist Caldari State pay you guys to bastardize all 3 Gallente BS at the same time? |
Robert Lefcourt
Audentia et Artis E.B.O.L.A.
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 04:57:00 -
[1854] - Quote
The large Dronebay was one of the main Reasons, the Mega was worth flying in spite of its low range. That's a shame, especially since i like the new model :-(
regards,
rob |
Perihelion Olenard
151
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 11:09:00 -
[1855] - Quote
The megathron, as an attack battleship, is going to need more maneuverability and speed to counter being plated. The hyperion, being active armor-tanked combat battleship, will probably be faster than the megathron. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
480
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 11:12:00 -
[1856] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:The megathron, as an attack battleship, is going to need more maneuverability and speed to counter being plated. The hyperion, being active armor-tanked combat battleship, will probably be faster than the megathron. Nope. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 11:32:00 -
[1857] - Quote
The new Megathron does not stand out to me as being that much more turret focused than the Hyperion.
9.3333 effective turrets vs 9, 50mbit less drones. Shouldn't the Mega be gankier than the Hype? |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 12:05:00 -
[1858] - Quote
wallenbergaren wrote:The new Megathron does not stand out to me as being that much more turret focused than the Hyperion.
9.3333 effective turrets vs 9, 50mbit less drones. Shouldn't the Mega be gankier than the Hype?
The Megathron has more effective turrets (although barley) but also has a tracking bonus... This instantly makes it more turret focused than the megathron.
As for the 50m3 less drone bandwidth. This is really the only complaing people are throwing at the new megathron that I agree with, give it 100m3 and I think much of the whining will stop. As for the hyperion, I think it needs to loose the 50m3 of extra drone bay. 125m3/125m3 is perfectly acceptable.
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
480
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 12:29:00 -
[1859] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:wallenbergaren wrote:The new Megathron does not stand out to me as being that much more turret focused than the Hyperion.
9.3333 effective turrets vs 9, 50mbit less drones. Shouldn't the Mega be gankier than the Hype? The Megathron has more effective turrets (although barley) but also has a tracking bonus... This instantly makes it more turret focused than the megathron. As for the 50m3 less drone bandwidth. This is really the only complaing people are throwing at the new megathron that I agree with, give it 100m3 and I think much of the whining will stop. As for the hyperion, I think it needs to loose the 50m3 of extra drone bay. 125m3/125m3 is perfectly acceptable. If only to stop the complaining... Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 12:33:00 -
[1860] - Quote
I'm really not sure about the RoF "CapUFast" bonus on the Megathron... and I'm also confused as to why gaining shields and losing armour is supposed to be in its favour. All in all it's receiving a significant nerf - the vastly reduced drone bay/bandwidth, the HP and the cap pressure GÇô all in exchange for 7m/s?!? The RoF bonus sounds nice when you look at the paper numbers, but when you compare it to the existing damage bonus what it really means is significantly reduced cap life on a ship which is already highly reliant on cap boosters for propulsion, weaponry and (for those of us who do still fit reps) tank and significantly reduced overheat lifespan.
And again we come up against the hideous problems caused by the decision to make the Tornado and the ships which then joined it in its class into battlecruisers rather than the secondary EWar BS they should have been. The MegathronGÇÖs strengths are its mobility and damage projection GÇô except that it does not compare favourably with the Talos in those respects. IGÇÖm not sure it should ever compare with the Talos in those respects
The Dominix is also losing significant damage and seems to be designed as an exclusively sentry boat... The effect of the loss of the hybrid damage bonus is to make Nos/Neuts more valuable (in that you have to sacrifice less to fit them) but then that role is far better played by the new 'geddon (Drones, TDs...etc should be a new disruption hull, not a change to the 'geddon). So we end up with the RR Domi gaining in relative power... Wasn't one of the stated aims of the introduction of Sleeper-style AI to standard PvE a nerf to the AFK Domi's with a rep on each sentry drone? And yet this change seems, for some reason, to boost that tactic. Are we expecting to see dozens of them AFK at a POS Seige perhaps, all their drones assigned to the FC? |
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Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 12:55:00 -
[1861] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote: All in all it's receiving a significant nerf
Nope
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
132
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 13:14:00 -
[1862] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote: And again we come up against the hideous problems caused by the decision to make the Tornado and the ships which then joined it in its class into battlecruisers rather than the secondary EWar BS they should have been. The MegathronGÇÖs strengths are its mobility and damage projection GÇô except that it does not compare favourably with the Talos in those respects. IGÇÖm not sure it should ever compare with the Talos in those respects
That is the greatest truth in eve balance on the last few years. Tier 3 BC isntead of the ewar BS that they were supposed to be was the WORSE DECISION POSSIBLE.
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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
70
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 13:21:00 -
[1863] - Quote
Wouldn't have wanted those damn tasty looking new hulls to be made boring by giving them a bonus to tracking computers and such :p |
Nabuch Sattva
The Green Cross RED University
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 15:50:00 -
[1864] - Quote
How about 3 combat BS for the gallente? |
Moksa Elodie
Unleashed Pestilence Heretic Nation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 16:05:00 -
[1865] - Quote
I'm not sure if it has already been mentioned, but how does the dps of the proposed Domi (gank fit) compare against the dps of a gank fit Vexor?
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
886
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 16:06:00 -
[1866] - Quote
Moksa Elodie wrote:I'm not sure if it has already been mentioned, but how does the dps of the proposed Domi (gank fit) compare against the dps of a gank fit Vexor?
The proposed Dominix loses about 150 DPS Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
676
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 16:21:00 -
[1867] - Quote
@ Rise could we get some input from you, from the last week or so of posts and debate?
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
722
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 16:25:00 -
[1868] - Quote
Quote:Hyperion:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Megathron:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Well, personal opinion about these new proposed changes:
Hyperion: finally good +10% dmg on 6 guns should make it for the loss of 2 guns raw dps, increasing all battleships dps is not bad, those SHOULD be the subcap hard hitting monsters. Better dps overall on practice imho with this change. Can even use rails now and actually do some dps? -we'll see but might actually find some options here.
Tank: finally Hyperion gets what it needs for tank, 7 lows are the strict necessary number for a decent tank (amount/resists/reps), on addition this 5 meds makes it less cap warfare fragile with enough tackle. Awesome.
Drones: Gallente battleship gets what it takes for options, I think this is a good choice, not op nor under, just the good balance for this ship.
Megathron: good but...
First things first !!- Megathron used his high for a neut (I did and that helped me very often), however this high slot legitimacy was debatable when this ship had by far more issues, due often to tanking mods/type/guns.
Why Navy Mega was so good imho was because of it's extra low slot (forget the utility high) on top of generous fittings, this single low slot added by far more value than that high or anything else, could use however of an extra mid (8-5-8 NM and 7-5-7 on regular version) Choosing to give it an extra low (8 instead of 7) will help a lot for choices while keeping the already good mid slot layout with prop tackle and cap booster, or cap booster prop and TC's. One of these choices this low is extra tank (amount), another is extra resist but this single point here still requires an extra effort on RAH cap consumption, the obvious choice on this ship is usually "more gank less tank" so this extra low can also perfectly fit on this already used and loved fitting choice (MOAR MFS FFS MOAR MFS !!!) .
One thing still, the dmg output with rails is still extremely low. While I think this 5% ROF now after slots proposed changes is not bad, the guns themselves should use of an extra dmg amount, such as mid rails too. As fleet platform if now you can add an extra plate (welp it's always that so I take it) bringing the overall EHP at correct numbers but you still lack of dps since the purpose on Gallente hulls opposed to Caldari ones performing better for fleets (range) is DPS, tracking bonus helps but it's still not enough.
Drones: I loved my Megathron 5 sentry drone bay but tradeoffs are necessary for balance in between ships and role, so yes, it's a trade off Megathron users can live with, a much better trade off for this ship role than anything else that could ever been brought so despite the little tear in the corner of my eye, I think it's fair.
Dominix: I don't like that much to rely on drones so don't want to displease Dominix lovers but I can understand their concerns for the loss of their turrets and game changing these changes will bring, specifically because this change comes out before drones AI/interface/love/hate are hit by the balancing/UI teams. Dominix can still do it's job, imho, and be an awesome new player platform for so many uses but higher skilled players might have a bad taste in their mouth right now.
These Hype and Mega slot and bonus changes are by far much better than precedent ones. Thx *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
87
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 17:25:00 -
[1869] - Quote
Askulf Joringer wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Take this personally if you wish, but I'm pointing out that you come across as an unconstructive scrub. And, suurrre you're a beta player - if you were, you'd have no need to hide behind an alt in a constructive balancing thread So supporting the current proposed change is unconstructive? The only reason you define it as such is because you disagree with my opinion. As for you not believing the fact that I played during closed beta, I really don't care what you think truth is the truth. If you want to believe it or not is on you. The reality is that the new mega proposal Will be doing more dps int he vast majority of situations, even with 2 mag stabs. Turret dps is > drone dps. Reasons are rather obvious. The extra low, which would enable a 3rd mag stab puts the eft paper dps well in favor of the new mega, and the fact that a much larger portion of the damage is coming from guns compared to the pre nerf mega only further exaggerates this. The only real draw backs are the loss of the nuet and the increased cap consumption tied in with the rof bonus. As far as cap consumption goes... A heavy cap injector is WAY more than enough cap to keep the ship running so this draw back in cap consumption is really not as significant as people are making it out to be... Not at all, it's simply because you are of the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is a 'baby' - that is the unconstructive part.
All I have pointed out (which you initially snipped and mis-quoted) is what the DPS changes are with 2 MFS, with 3 MFS and the implications of this, namely that it is not a cut and dried buff (or nerf, as others have said here) to traditional blasters fits. Yes more gun DPS, but less flexibility in damage type (no more bay of berserkers), no neut, significantly higher cap usage.
You'd have more credibility if you were not hiding behind an alt but whatever... IGÇÖm awaiting the update to Sisi to try my new fits, being a 'tinkerer' I'm always quite excited about experimentation with new fits to T1 ships.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 17:33:00 -
[1870] - Quote
Judging by the fact I am posting on page 93, it does not seem that the proposed Gallente changes are being well received.
Unlike the case of other races, I see the changes as an overall nerf to Gallente battleships. I don't know if anyone can say with a straight face that Gallente BS are overpowered as they are. Yes, Hype needed a little love (it looks like it will get it). But Mega and especially Domi were well-loved, widely used, and not game-breaking or in any way overpowered.
Domi, like the Typhoon, was one of the more versatile and unpredictable ships - it made for a very nice "glass cannon" with blasters, it could be tanked, it could be used to nos/neut, or it could be used with sentries.
The proposed changes make it squarely a long-range, sentry drone boat. The energy neut/drone ship role has been transferred to the Armageddon - there is no reason at all to choose a Domi for that. The new version of "glass cannon" is just as glass, but much less cannon. On the other hand, no other sentry-capable ship gives a comparable bonus to tracking and range.
My humble proposal:
- Leave the Domi as it is. It is not the ship that is breaking the balance, and it is fun to use!
- Alternatively, if you really want to shake things up, make it into a disruption ship, along the lines of Scrop and Armageddon. Give it a long point (less than T2 ships, but still bonused), or bonused damps, or a speed-bonused web (like Vindicator/Vigilant, but not quite as good).
Sadly, I am convinced that the changes are going into production now. Which means that the next skill on my list is Amarr Battleship 5. |
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Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 17:50:00 -
[1871] - Quote
To put it even more in perspective, here is a quote from Amarr thread for the proposed new Geddon:
Quote:Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% to Drone damage and Hit Points (replaced large energy turret rate of fire) +10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5) Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4) Signature radius: 450 (+80)
Now, let's see which ship is more interesting to fly, the new Domi or this. The new Geddon has split bonuses (I thought we are getting rid of that, and it is one of the reasons Domi is getting nerfed?). It can fit either unbonused turrets or unbonused missiles, with 7 high slots and 2 utility slots. And it has exactly the same drone bay, bandwidth, and non-sentry drone bonuses.
Yes, I would expect that real-world drone DPS of a new Domi will be somewhat higher than that of Geddon. But for non-sentry drones, it won't amount for much, and the extra utility/versatility of Geddon makes it just that much more attractive. It is really a non-choice for me - as I said in my other post, Amarr Battleship 5 is in queue.
Given that the other two Gallente ships are also underwhelming (I think new Hype is OK, but the Mega was also nerfed), I really don't see any compelling reason to fly/specialize in Gallente BS. Any change that removes choice and unpredictability is not a good change in my book. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 17:55:00 -
[1872] - Quote
They have converted Gallente in the lost cause. The most powerful weapons, at the cost of the more range-dependant. You "decide" they have to be armor-tanked (and don't say now about being shield-tanked as only incursion fittings do that) and the armor tank destroy your velocity. You think in put a lot of LAR's (and the rigs that rise up the active armor tank, as they don't slow down your ship) to try to compensante this and you see you even need "-í-í-íA CAP BOOSTER!!!" (even with lvl5 skills) for only keep your systems going. And that in the case you aren't against a smaller & faster ship than you to switch on your MWD and forget about your cap. And then the Amarr have cap problems for the lasers... kind of ridiculous. You try to follow the philosophy of Gallente to be an effectively damage applier (-í-í-íDON'T SLOW DOWN YOUR SHIP SO YOU WON'T USE ALMOST MWD!!!) and you get 75K EHP that even an Sleipnir destroys your Mega (real situation some hours ago).
At least, with Amarr, you know that you need to be far of your objective. That doesn't hurt your damage as the tracking is fine when you are far. Gallente is the land of the contradictions. We should request for a SP permutation. I'm tired of trying to win combats in a Gallente boat (and BTW the only BS i can't fit is Amarr). http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 17:59:00 -
[1873] - Quote
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:To put it even more in perspective, here is a quote from Amarr thread for the proposed new Geddon: Quote:Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% to Drone damage and Hit Points (replaced large energy turret rate of fire) +10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5) Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4) Signature radius: 450 (+80) Now, let's see which ship is more interesting to fly, the new Domi or this. The new Geddon has split bonuses (I thought we are getting rid of that, and it is one of the reasons Domi is getting nerfed?). It can fit either unbonused turrets or unbonused missiles, with 7 high slots and 2 utility slots. And it has exactly the same drone bay, bandwidth, and non-sentry drone bonuses. Yes, I would expect that real-world drone DPS of a new Domi will be somewhat higher than that of Geddon. But for non-sentry drones, it won't amount for much, and the extra utility/versatility of Geddon makes it just that much more attractive. It is really a non-choice for me - as I said in my other post, Amarr Battleship 5 is in queue. Given that the other two Gallente ships are also underwhelming (I think new Hype is OK, but the Mega was also nerfed), I really don't see any compelling reason to fly/specialize in Gallente BS. Any change that removes choice and unpredictability is not a good change in my book.
I disagree that domi is worse off .. yes it lost some dps but its dps was too much upto 1500 dps i think. It now has more applied dps with its drone tracking skill which gives it more flexibility in effect plus it has much more tank.
The ship i am disappointed with is the mega with ships in eve getting faster and more options for blasterboats now with the talos and navy brutix the mega isn't looking so good. The only real solution to fix the mega/ give it a unique role is too make it a shield tanking dps killing machine. 7-6-6 100 drone bandwidth. They also need to increase battleships tank to be much higher than navy bc's Also the talos needs to lose a turret 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 18:31:00 -
[1874] - Quote
I'm happy to see in my few days of not reading the thread that the naysayers haven't got the Hype changed lol.
Some of the suggestions just have me wondering in what world you live in.. 8 Turrets and a ROF bonus ??? Seriously.. Like the Hyperion isn't caphungry enough as it is.
I don't care that the model has 8 points. It's trivial. With an Armour rep bonus, to make the Hype useful in the roll it's supposed to be designed, you would already need to fill the rigs, most of the mids, and maybe even some of the lows with cap chargers just to make it last more than a minute or two.
The changes made are great. Slight damage bonus, loss of 2 turrets, is a not insignificant reduction in the cap usage for similar damage. The effective 9 turret vs 10 turret argument forgets the extra low that can be used for a Mag Stab ( or tracking, which would improve Applied damage )
The new Hype is where it should be. It's where it should have been for a long time. And the added drones makes sense. The "brawler" of the Cruiser world, the Thorax, also can field a full fight of drones equal to it's class (mediums), just makes sense that the similar BS scale would also be able to field 5 drones designed to engage BS's, aka Heavy.
The more and more I think of the Domi, the more I like the idea of additional drones. Drop all the drone damage bonus, drop all the hardpoints except for one turret ( maybe a launcher too ) just to draw aggro, leave the rest of the highs as utility.
Then either drive them a Drone per level ( and the bandwidth to use it ), or another idea would be to let them fit the same mod Carriers use for additional drones/fighters ( this would be ideal if turret points remained, then you'd need to choice between more drones or turrets.. not or on the flipside, more drones, less drone control range).
Other than how awesome 10 Sentries or Heavies would be, I think it would really added an interesting element to both PvE and PvP tatics.. 5 sentries and 5 EWAR from one ship ? The old issue of server load is, I think, for the most part behind us. If it is an issue, then that's what TiDi is for. It would also give the Gallente who are the "Drone" empire, a truly unique droneboat that isn't similarly matched by another race. Same way the Caldari have their own unique BS, the EWAR Scorpion. It would also give me a reason to use it, at the moment if I want a droneboat I'll get in a Gila or Rattlesnake.. I see no benefit to the Domi at all really. I mean it's not BAD, but it's not unique or special enough to make me want to use it yet.
Just some thoughts.. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1276
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 18:32:00 -
[1875] - Quote
The only further comment I have is that for the most part Gallente ships seem to do better with the second level railguns (125mm, 200mm) than the top tier rails (150mm and 250mm), with the exception of the Megathron. The CPU values for the 350mm railguns seem to be too high (you can't use savings from cpu to put in better/more mods in lows), and the PWG on the Megathron also seems to be a bit excessive. It would be more interesting if the fittings for the Mega would be more optimized for 350mm rails. (CCP has done a great job with the Catalyst and 125mm rails, for example) |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 21:32:00 -
[1876] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
I disagree that domi is worse off .. yes it lost some dps but its dps was too much upto 1500 dps i think. It now has more applied dps with its drone tracking skill which gives it more flexibility in effect plus it has much more tank.
Except it was never 1500 (maybe on paper/in EFT?). And the 3x MFS 3x DDU Domi has pitiful EHP. As it should. If these gun setups were so amazingly OP, you would see people flying only gunship Domis, but that's definitely not the case.
And how does being limited to sentries equal "more flexibility"? Drone tracking is rarely a factor for Ogre IIs in most PvP scenarios. I also think that the ability to fit bonused racial guns, if I want to, is flexibility.
The new Domi gains 20% armor EHP, but loses the fun and unpredictability factor. If I fit it with something other than sentries and an armor tank, my setup is not using the bonuses.
It may be a boon to mission runners. Bonused sentries, and more EHP than it used to have.
My feeling is that Domi is being changed for the sake of change... Sad.
Just noticed: new Geddon gets 8500 armor HP to Domi's 8000. Can you tell me once again why should I fly the Domi? |
Perihelion Olenard
151
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 21:36:00 -
[1877] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:The megathron, as an attack battleship, is going to need more maneuverability and speed to counter being plated. The hyperion, being active armor-tanked combat battleship, will probably be faster than the megathron. Nope. Uh, yep? I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
128
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 22:00:00 -
[1878] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote:The more and more I think of the Domi, the more I like the idea of additional drones. Drop all the drone damage bonus, drop all the hardpoints except for one turret ( maybe a launcher too ) just to draw aggro, leave the rest of the highs as utility.
Then either drive them a Drone per level ( and the bandwidth to use it ), or another idea would be to let them fit the same mod Carriers use for additional drones/fighters ( this would be ideal if turret points remained, then you'd need to choice between more drones or turrets.. not or on the flipside, more drones, less drone control range).
Other than how awesome 10 Sentries or Heavies would be, I think it would really added an interesting element to both PvE and PvP tatics.. 5 sentries and 5 EWAR from one ship ? The old issue of server load is, I think, for the most part behind us. If it is an issue, then that's what TiDi is for. It would also give the Gallente who are the "Drone" empire, a truly unique droneboat that isn't similarly matched by another race. Same way the Caldari have their own unique BS, the EWAR Scorpion. It would also give me a reason to use it, at the moment if I want a droneboat I'll get in a Gila or Rattlesnake.. I see no benefit to the Domi at all really. I mean it's not BAD, but it's not unique or special enough to make me want to use it yet.
Just some thoughts.. I think a lot of people would be on board with this idea, except those bittervets who experienced the server lag woes in 2005. Seriously, 2005 is when it was changed.
Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.
|
Drunken Bum
111
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 23:18:00 -
[1879] - Quote
I just dont see the bonuses on the domi making me want to take it over almost any other drone boat in the game. If its gonna focus solely on drones, it needs to bring more to the table then that. As it is, I'm gonna miss you upside down sneaker. Spare some change?-á |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 23:58:00 -
[1880] - Quote
Seriously think people are underestimating the strength of the Domi's drone bonus.
I understand the concerns between the Domi and the Geddon with similar tank and DPS but the Domi's DPS projection is on another level. If there is a fix for sentries coming then with 150k EHP and being able to swap from brawling to sniping in an instant it will be a serious fleet contender.
The turret DPS loss is not a huge deal considering the all round buffs it is getting. There is a argument the Geddon still has too high a fittings and it should really need to make sacrifices to fit many heavy neuts. |
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Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 00:53:00 -
[1881] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.
I wouldn't even do RR.. I mean I KNOW the PvP fleets would love it, and so would PvE repping their sentries.. but still, that would make the ship a little too unique, being extra drones AND a Logi BS..
Hell, one drone per level ( or can fit One Drone Control Unit per level ), along with tracking, and there's it's two bonus.. call it a day :)
I don't think it would be Overpowered. I don't think it would cause a huge lag, no more so than you already get in massive fleet fights.. And as I said, I think it would give the Gallente that one unique ship they need, that holds true to their empires traditions.
I would love to hear CCP Rise's input on the idea.. even if it doesn't happen it would be nice to know what CCP's thoughts are on it.. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 02:07:00 -
[1882] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote:
Hell, one drone per level ( or can fit One Drone Control Unit per level ), along with tracking, and there's it's two bonus.. call it a day :)
I don't think it would be Overpowered. I don't think it would cause a huge lag, no more so than you already get in massive fleet fights.. And as I said, I think it would give the Gallente that one unique ship they need, that holds true to their empires traditions.
I would love to hear CCP Rise's input on the idea.. even if it doesn't happen it would be nice to know what CCP's thoughts are on it..
For any additional bonus to bandwidth, +hp/level would be more appropriate... or perhaps +drone bay size/level like the Eos. It's already a little bit like whack-a-mole even with 5 drones to get one back in the bay before it croaks with the number of times they are targeted nowadays.
Tracking, while nice for just sentries, would feel underused considering the ability to switch up to smaller drones and the likely increase in use of logi and ewar drones with this bonus. But I'm probably getting ahead of the argument at this point. One step after another. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
888
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 02:13:00 -
[1883] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote: Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.
A DCU costs about 100m and could make using the Dominix quite expensive even for just missions. As far as a RR Dominix goes I have been is support of that since even before the BS rebalance thread opened.
Drunken Bum wrote: I just don't see the bonuses on the domi making me want to take it over almost any other drone boat in the game. If its gonna focus solely on drones, it needs to bring more to the table then that.
This Exactly.
Alticus C Bear wrote: I understand the concerns between the Domi and the Geddon with similar tank and DPS but the Domi's DPS projection is on another level. If there is a fix for sentries coming then with 150k EHP and being able to swap from brawling to sniping in an instant it will be a serious fleet contender.
While fixing sentry drones would help, it still will not put the Dominix on a competitive level with the Armageddon as it will be able to recall the drones also making it on equal to better grounds than the Dominix.
Suicide Smith wrote: I wouldn't even do RR.. I mean I KNOW the PvP fleets would love it, and so would PvE repping their sentries.. but still, that would make the ship a little too unique, being extra drones AND a Logi BS..
As far a Unique BSes go, the Scorpion is the only E-War BS, the Armageddon is the only T1 Neutralizer BS, I don't see a problem making the Dominix the only RR Dominix, and to place it on similar grounds as the Armageddon the second bonus could be +70% to the range of Remote Armor (and possibly shield) Repair Systems per level. Putting a T2 Large RR at equal distance as a T2 Heavy Energy Neutralizer. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
130
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 03:22:00 -
[1884] - Quote
I got a chance to plug the domi into eft and tbh I think its lacking a bit on ehp. I would absolutely love to use this as a fleet ship but I just don't think it has the tank to allow it without some serious modifications that really hurt it. Would it be possible to get an additional buff to its base armor or an extra low slot please? I feel that this would be a great final modification for the domi.
I really like that you revisited the mega, because the old shield idea was just bad. Thanks!
The hyperion looks interesting with the midslots in proper balance and I also really look forward to the new and revised eft for that ship with actual potential for neuts/smartbombs. Hopefully it will be a very cool solo boat or possibly even a fleet ship. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
129
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 10:38:00 -
[1885] - Quote
Of course, if they were to do a full rebalance of drones then the domi optimal bonus might become something good for non-sentries also.
How about they give drones different optimals? (and adjusting activation range ond other stats as needed). Currently all the heavies have 1000m. Chnage this so that they cover a range from say 4000m to 5500m (at 500m increments according to race; gallente closest then minmatar, caldari, amarr perhaps). This gives the different racial drones different combat characteristics and begins to place them towards the edge of smartbomb ranges assuming an orbit at optimal. The domi bonus at level 5 then offers a larger orbit and even better protection against smartbombs. (50% bonus would give orbits of 6000m to 8250m)
Of course this might also improve hit characteristics from drones with the increased range reducing angular velocity and on the flip side possibly making them easier to shoot (which still offers some counter to movement outside smartbomb ranges).
Adjust the stats accordingly for medium and light drones and this could well keep the domi unique and competitive with the Armageddon's new layout and bonuses. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 11:09:00 -
[1886] - Quote
Nikuno wrote:Of course, if they were to do a full rebalance of drones then the domi optimal bonus might become something good for non-sentries also.
How about they give drones different optimals? (and adjusting activation range ond other stats as needed). Currently all the heavies have 1000m. Chnage this so that they cover a range from say 4000m to 5500m (at 500m increments according to race; gallente closest then minmatar, caldari, amarr perhaps). This gives the different racial drones different combat characteristics and begins to place them towards the edge of smartbomb ranges assuming an orbit at optimal. The domi bonus at level 5 then offers a larger orbit and even better protection against smartbombs. (50% bonus would give orbits of 6000m to 8250m)
Of course this might also improve hit characteristics from drones with the increased range reducing angular velocity and on the flip side possibly making them easier to shoot (which still offers some counter to movement outside smartbomb ranges).
Adjust the stats accordingly for medium and light drones and this could well keep the domi unique and competitive with the Armageddon's new layout and bonuses.
a drone falloff skill would help aswell but they need to sort out drone tracking, sig radius and higher orbit velocity amongst other things. Also their sig res 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
293
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 14:02:00 -
[1887] - Quote
I would have gave the Megathron a chance, but IMO the beam + cruise rebalance just killed it for good now. There is absolutely no point for not ranged bonused railguns as a dps weapon now. Infact, the only survival railguns will be those of the Naga, with range + dmg bonus.
Problem is, at close range, tachyon are better than railguns at the cost of using more cap, and cruise missiles are now a LOT better than railguns at long range at the cost of flight time.
RIP fleet Megathron ? |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 14:08:00 -
[1888] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:I would have gave the Megathron a chance, but IMO the beam + cruise rebalance just killed it for good now. There is absolutely no point for not ranged bonused railguns as a dps weapon now. Infact, the only survival railguns will be those of the Naga, with range + dmg bonus.
Problem is, at close range, tachyon are better than railguns at the cost of using more cap, and cruise missiles are now a LOT better than railguns at long range at the cost of flight time.
RIP fleet Megathron ?
RIP Megathron, in general. Auto-quote.
Phoenix Torp wrote:They have converted Gallente in the lost cause. The most powerful weapons, at the cost of the more range-dependant. You "decide" they have to be armor-tanked (and don't say now about being shield-tanked as only incursion fittings do that) and the armor tank destroy your velocity. You think in put a lot of LAR's (and the rigs that rise up the active armor tank, as they don't slow down your ship) to try to compensante this and you see you even need "-í-í-íA CAP BOOSTER!!!" (even with lvl5 skills) for only keep your systems going. And that in the case you aren't against a smaller & faster ship than you to switch on your MWD and forget about your cap. And then the Amarr have cap problems for the lasers... kind of ridiculous. You try to follow the philosophy of Gallente to be an effectively damage applier (-í-í-íDON'T SLOW DOWN YOUR SHIP SO YOU WON'T USE ALMOST MWD!!!) and you get 75K EHP that even an Sleipnir destroys your Mega (real situation some hours ago).
At least, with Amarr, you know that you need to be far of your objective. That doesn't hurt your damage as the tracking is fine when you are far. Gallente is the land of the contradictions. We should request for a SP permutation. I'm tired of trying to win combats in a Gallente boat (and BTW the only BS i can't fit is Amarr). http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 15:28:00 -
[1889] - Quote
meh , i just hope CCP can sort out Gallente Ships PROPERLY.
On a second note, still waiting news/feedback/bump any kind of replies from CCP about this. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 18:54:00 -
[1890] - Quote
Tierere wrote: Well if the domi is going to be truly thought of as the dedicated drone boat, and is loosing its hybrid bonus and dps how about enabling it to fit one or more 'Drone Control Units' that would make me happy. Yes, giving it a special ability to fit DCUs* would be fitting for the "dedicated drone boat", instead of making it a "sentry drone boat". Or, like I and others have said, give it more across-the-board drone bonuses.
*Someone rightly pointed out that the DCUs' cost is inappropriate for putting 5 of them on a T1 BS. Not sure what would be done about this. Maybe something crazy like "Dominix gets +1 drone in space per fitted Drone Link Augmentor" (instead of DCU)?
P.S. If sentries are supposed to be made more viable for PVP in an upcoming change, wait for that change to be implemented before you do this to the Domi. Otherwise it's going to be "yeah it's broken but only till we implement these changes in 2 or 3 years"
P.P.S. Overall, I just feel, as do many others, that Gallente ships' "specialness" where drones are concerned is being stripped away and with nothing in return to compenate, at least at the Battleship level. I mean fucksake, what kind of self-respecting Gallente BS can't even field 5 heavies?! WTH, CCP |
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 21:15:00 -
[1891] - Quote
CCP Rise Hyperion and megathron need more cap... there cap isnt much better than a raven or minnie ships which ofc dont need so much cap. Mega - blasters/mwd Hyperion - blasters/mwd - armour reps 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 21:28:00 -
[1892] - Quote
CCP Rise i disagree that with the mega you first posted meant too much overlap with the Hyperion because the Hype is a active tanker with low tracking and less mobile. A shield mega would be very mobile with strong tracking where as now its very similar to its navy version but without the hefty tank to match and is too slow for the shortest range battleship. I thought it would be more like a big thorax having versatility and options instead of being pigeon holed into killing its speed.
P.S. seriously why does the Navy brutix have virtually the same tank?... its plainly wrong..... these battleships need more tank they don't scale like the rest of the classes have..... a rethink is needed here. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 22:30:00 -
[1893] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:I would have gave the Megathron a chance, but IMO the beam + cruise rebalance just killed it for good now. There is absolutely no point for not ranged bonused railguns as a dps weapon now. Infact, the only survival railguns will be those of the Naga, with range + dmg bonus.
Problem is, at close range, tachyon are better than railguns at the cost of using more cap, and cruise missiles are now a LOT better than railguns at long range at the cost of flight time.
RIP fleet Megathron ?
I personally see this the end of Gallente BS boats. Too many broken mechanics waiting to be fixed and no planned fix in sight.
I really really hate the fact I have trained Gal BS 5 now - what a complete waste.
CCP Rise. Do not ******* touch the Navy Domi. |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth R.E.P.O.
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 23:04:00 -
[1894] - Quote
megathron change looks like... reasonable... while i dont really see the need for a change there in the first place. a bit more tank on it certainly is nice. think all bs should in generall have a pretty bad ass buffer tank comes pvp. i mean they are the biggest conventional ships.
off topic: once you are done with the t1 bs could you just go back to the t1 cruisers and remove the OP on them. so there actually is a point again to fly t2 cruisers over t1. cheers. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 23:26:00 -
[1895] - Quote
Galmas wrote:megathron change looks like... reasonable... while i dont really see the need for a change there in the first place. a bit more tank on it certainly is nice. think all bs should in generall have a pretty bad ass buffer tank comes pvp. i mean they are the biggest conventional ships.
off topic: once you are done with the t1 bs could you just go back to the t1 cruisers and remove the OP on them. so there actually is a point again to fly t2 cruisers over t1. cheers. Your T2's will likely get a little better once they actually re-balance the T2's.. For now T1's aren't OP, they just aren't as bad as they used to be lol |
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 03:36:00 -
[1896] - Quote
So what's the new BS 5 to train for now that Gallente BSes are dead? |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2533
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 08:04:00 -
[1897] - Quote
Hoinus wrote:So what's the new BS 5 to train for, now that Gallente BSes are dead?
What do you mean?
Funnily enough, unless you prefer null blobs, Gallente BS V is still the best one. It's not going to be as clear cut winner after the skill tree change (you won't need it for the Moros anymore), but the lineup still has the most versatile BS (Domi), the new king of small gang (Hype) and Mega as viable as it's been so far, just different. Possibly inproved damage application and higher overheated dps.
If you fancy PVE, sentry Domi will project damage far better than pirate battleships.
And you want Gallente BS for Vindi and Mach, crosstraining Minnie and Gal continues to be a winning choice for anything EVE throws at you.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Virgil Disith
Vulture Salvage Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:22:00 -
[1898] - Quote
I had read other BS threads seeing updates to bonuses based on feed back, so I excitedly hopped over here hoping, praying something would have been done about the hyperion's worthless armor bonus.
Disappointment. Disappointed enough to post in an almost 100 page thread, too.
What are you worried about making it too strong for? It's only going to be used in missions anyways.
Are you guys at CCP so adamant that active armor tanking isn't dead unless you fit at least 3 reppers? Do you really want this active armor dream not to die, or something?
You want the hyperion to be flyable in more than 1 or 2 situations? Get rid of that ****** armor rep bonus. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:25:00 -
[1899] - Quote
Virgil Disith wrote:I had read other BS threads seeing updates to bonuses based on feed back, so I excitedly hopped over here hoping, praying something would have been done about the hyperion's worthless armor bonus.
Disappointment. Disappointed enough to post in an almost 100 page thread, too.
What are you worried about making it too strong for? It's only going to be used in missions anyways.
Are you guys at CCP so adamant that active armor tanking isn't dead unless you fit at least 3 reppers? Do you really want this active armor dream not to die, or something?
You want the hyperion to be flyable in more than 1 or 2 situations? Get rid of that ****** armor rep bonus.
They are thinking how change all this mess. Sadly, they will finish doing little and the people will have another deception with Gallente. I'm seeing it... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
300
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:38:00 -
[1900] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:They are thinking how change all this mess. Sadly, they will finish doing little and the people will have another deception with Gallente. I'm seeing it... That depend on your expectations with this balancing job : people tend to expect their ship to be better than any other ship in almost all areas of the game. They are just asking for deception.
However, for their designated role, Hyperion and Dominix will be beasts. I'm just skeptical about the Megathron, but the tracking bonus may be enough to differentiate it from the Hyperion. |
|
49125
Haemus Frigidus
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:47:00 -
[1901] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:However, for their designated role, Hyperion and Dominix will be beasts. I'm just skeptical about the Megathron, but the tracking bonus may be enough to differentiate it from the Hyperion. How will the new domi be a 'beast' in the (sniper) role as compared to the current stats? Seriously, how does an in-built OTL, some tank, and some PG turn the domi into a 'beast'? . |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
892
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:52:00 -
[1902] - Quote
49125 wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:However, for their designated role, Hyperion and Dominix will be beasts. I'm just skeptical about the Megathron, but the tracking bonus may be enough to differentiate it from the Hyperion. How will the new domi be a 'beast' in the (sniper) role as compared to the current stats? Seriously, how does an in-built OTL, some tank, and some PG turn the domi into a 'beast'? Agreed, what would turn it into a beast sniper ship would be a control range bonus as well. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:53:00 -
[1903] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:They are thinking how change all this mess. Sadly, they will finish doing little and the people will have another deception with Gallente. I'm seeing it... That depend on your expectations with this balancing job : people tend to expect their ship to be better than any other ship in almost all areas of the game. They are just asking for deception. However, for their designated role, Hyperion and Dominix will be beasts. I'm just skeptical about the Megathron, but the tracking bonus may be enough to differentiate it from the Hyperion.
The only BS that I can't wear are amarr (and, BTW, lasers). It's not my ship. If I want I can forget all this and fit a Maelstrom, or a Rokh, or even a Scorpion as also have EW skills, or a lot of things. I have not tried the Hyperion and the Dominix only 1 time for seeing time to complete L4 missions (and finished with the Nighthawk), but can see as the Megathron it's a completely mess. They have a tracking bonus to be near of your enemy and after that you are forced to fit armor buffer that slow down your ship (not nano, like a Minma would do) for have proper EHP. You are forced to be nearest of your enemy (OK, projectile have less optimal range than you but his falloff compensates that, and viceversa with Amarr) for then, if the enemy tries the idea to approach to you and then it stops your ship, or at least stop your orbiting, your genial tracking is useless as him will have maximum damage with a Mega that "tries" to orbit his enemy. The last try to give some opportunity to the Mega will be fitting Railguns. It's the only solution that see for the way that have done the Mega...
The sentries in the Domi are perfect for missions, but not for PVP. And, as have said, for PVE you can fit whatever you want. And the Hyperion, as have said, it's a buffer tank (low speed) with a velocity certificate. Kind of ridiculous.
If I only post in this thread is to make see CCP the contradiction that represents Gallente. And the fact that no simple solution will have this problem (or some of their pilots won't accept the change). http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
300
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:55:00 -
[1904] - Quote
49125 wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:However, for their designated role, Hyperion and Dominix will be beasts. I'm just skeptical about the Megathron, but the tracking bonus may be enough to differentiate it from the Hyperion. How will the new domi be a 'beast' in the (sniper) role as compared to the current stats? Seriously, how does an in-built OTL, some tank, and some PG turn the domi into a 'beast'? Tank and PG should compensate for the loss of the damage bonus. Tracking and range will help the drones and sentries, the main weapon of the dominix. It will be the same as before, but better in almost every way. Only the full gank shield domi should not be better. It's not an overpowered beast, but it's still the beast it was before, but better.
Of course the Armageddon will be better than the dominix as a neutralizing ship, but the abaddon or typhoon were already better, so it's hardly a real reduction to its niche. With anything drone related, it will still be the best IMO. The armageddon will be a contender of course, but all ships need a place, and the armageddon place won't be the top drone ship place IMO. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
300
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:03:00 -
[1905] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:The only BS that I can't wear are amarr (and, BTW, lasers). It's not my ship. If I want I can forget all this and fit a Maelstrom, or a Rokh, or even a Scorpion as also have EW skills, or a lot of things. I have not tried the Hyperion and the Dominix only 1 time for seeing time to complete L4 missions (and finished with the Nighthawk), but can see as the Megathron it's a completely mess. They have a tracking bonus to be near of your enemy and after that you are forced to fit armor buffer that slow down your ship (not nano, like a Minma would do) for have proper EHP. You are forced to be nearest of your enemy (OK, projectile have less optimal range than you but his falloff compensates that, and viceversa with Amarr) for then, if the enemy tries the idea to approach to you and then it stops your ship, or at least stop your orbiting, your genial tracking is useless as him will have maximum damage with a Mega that "tries" to orbit his enemy. The last try to give some opportunity to the Mega will be fitting Railguns. It's the only solution that see for the way that have done the Mega...
The sentries in the Domi are perfect for missions, but not for PVP. And, as have said, for PVE you can fit whatever you want. And the Hyperion, as have said, it's a buffer tank (low speed) with a velocity certificate. Kind of ridiculous.
If I only post in this thread is to make see CCP the contradiction that represents Gallente. And the fact that no simple solution will have this problem (or some of their pilots won't accept the change). This is rather uninformed about gallente warfare. Of course catching the target is always required for blasters to work, there is tools to do it, and gallente blasters doctrines tend to be fairly effective, with thorax or TWEED. As for their BS, they are arguably the best for small gang, with insane dps and a lot of mid slots for control and tackle. Basically, a blaster BS can either kill its target or MJD away. Indeed that's not huge blobfest warfare, but as I said, all ships need a place. |
49125
Haemus Frigidus
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:28:00 -
[1906] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Tank and PG should compensate for the loss of the damage bonus. Tracking and range will help the drones and sentries, the main weapon of the dominix. It will be the same as before, but better in almost every way. Only the full gank shield domi should not be better. It's not an overpowered beast, but it's still the beast it was before, but better.
Thanks for the reply. My issue with the new domi, specifically the drone bonuses, is that is does not offer me anything that i did not fit for before. The extra drone damage is mitigated my the loss of gun dps (re your take there, ALL BS seem to be getting, at least, tank bonuses) and the tracking / optimal was already in my fit. I gain ... sig radius, pg, tank, and a mid slot that I need to fit for sniping. I dunno. . |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
302
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:33:00 -
[1907] - Quote
49125 wrote:Thanks for the reply. My issue with the new domi, specifically the drone bonuses, is that is does not offer me anything that i did not fit for before. The extra drone damage is mitigated my the loss of gun dps (re your take there, ALL BS seem to be getting, at least, tank bonuses) and the tracking / optimal was already in my fit. I gain ... sig radius, pg, tank, and a mid slot that I need to fit for sniping. I dunno. Tiericide is not meant to give you more of anything. Tiericided only aim at making all ship good for something. That is also a point of deception for a lot people it seem. |
49125
Haemus Frigidus
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:40:00 -
[1908] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Tiericided only aim at making all ship good for something. That is also a point of deception for a lot people it seem. Fair enough. I won't fly it anymore. . |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
893
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:43:00 -
[1909] - Quote
The 2 free mid slots on the new Dominix are huge, while you loose some raw DPS your damage application from both drones and guns is greatly improved (should you choose to fit tracking computers in those free mid slots) and because you get the benefit of 2 unstacked omnidirectional tracking links it is an improvement there also. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:45:00 -
[1910] - Quote
95 pages of reply for Gallente BS thread,mostly complaints and frustrations. CCP u must be doing something REAL wrong here with Gallente BS. |
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Johnny Aideron
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:53:00 -
[1911] - Quote
I wrote such a long post that I ended up making a new thread out of it instead: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=226292&find=unread |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 12:03:00 -
[1912] - Quote
i love his proposal soooo effing much that i would anything to make it happen. Finally a real line up that defines Gallente! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2533
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 12:33:00 -
[1913] - Quote
New Domi is the biggest Falcon nerf to date
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
893
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 12:39:00 -
[1914] - Quote
Roime wrote:New Domi is the biggest Falcon nerf to date The only real nerf the Dominix got was the Armageddon. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
52
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 12:44:00 -
[1915] - Quote
domi looks ugly it needs a remodel if youre going to force it to be a carrier make it look like one |
Virgil Disith
Vulture Salvage Industries
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 13:00:00 -
[1916] - Quote
It's nice that Gallente do the whole "drone thing", and have some sort of niche role...
but what ultimately urks me is that there is absolutely no "fleet" option out of their line up. Hyperion would be an optimal choice imo, but that FRICKING repair bonus... what a waste. This bonus WILL go to waste, sans missioners, unless that's what CCP intends for it to be good at, and nothing else (except maybe solo camping? in a hype? i guess if you're rich/bored)
right down to their command ships...gallente really herp the derp in terms of a 'fleet' option. if that's their niche, just say so, so I can turn away for good and not look back.
so much disappoint |
Excaliblur
Freedom-Technologies The East India Co.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 13:18:00 -
[1917] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed. Care to shed any light? The primary reason people fly gallente? That just happens to be the race they started as before they knew better. they like blasters and they like the way the ships look and they just sort of make due with the fact they are awful. .
^^ This,
My unfortunately neamed toon was started in 2003 and the above quote just about sums it up. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2533
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 13:23:00 -
[1918] - Quote
A bad player will always blame the ships, that's true.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
151
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 13:28:00 -
[1919] - Quote
Virgil Disith wrote:It's nice that Gallente do the whole "drone thing", and have some sort of niche role...
but what ultimately urks me is that there is absolutely no "fleet" option out of their line up. Hyperion would be an optimal choice imo, but that FRICKING repair bonus... what a waste. This bonus WILL go to waste, sans missioners, unless that's what CCP intends for it to be good at, and nothing else (except maybe solo camping? in a hype? i guess if you're rich/bored)
right down to their command ships...gallente really herp the derp in terms of a 'fleet' option. if that's their niche, just say so, so I can turn away for good and not look back.
so much disappoint
Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.
The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 14:12:00 -
[1920] - Quote
CCP Rise have you compared the dual plated/trimark megathrons speed/agility to the Hyperion and other attack battleships? I suspect if you do you will notice its not very mobile and attack like its more of a lightweight tanked combat battleship. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
|
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
130
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 14:28:00 -
[1921] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.
The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference. Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
302
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 15:02:00 -
[1922] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.
The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference. Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not. Exactly ! That does mean that a repair bonus don't make a ship bad for fleet, that's a combination of more factors than only its bonuses !
And that's why I wrote pages trying to explain that gallente trying to mimic other ships for blob fleet warfare would lead to absolutely no results : because high armor LR dps could be done the exact same way with amarr ships. Instead, the Eos should be an advice : gallente are a strong electronic race, and this electronic goes into the mid slots. Hence, I think we should make gallente good at compensating tank/range/alpha with electronic warfare in their midslots. Bonus side effect is that midslots are godly for small gang warfare, a thing were gallente ships excells at.
The megathron should be good in fleets, but I don't expect it to be better than something else at anything. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
130
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 15:32:00 -
[1923] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.
The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference. Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not. Exactly ! That does mean that a repair bonus don't make a ship bad for fleet, that's a combination of more factors than only its bonuses ! And that's why I wrote pages trying to explain that gallente trying to mimic other ships for blob fleet warfare would lead to absolutely no results : because high armor LR dps could be done the exact same way with amarr ships. Instead, the Eos should be an advice : gallente are a strong electronic race, and this electronic goes into the mid slots. Hence, I think we should make gallente good at compensating tank/range/alpha with electronic warfare in their midslots. Bonus side effect is that midslots are godly for small gang warfare, a thing were gallente ships excells at. The megathron should be good in fleets, but I don't expect it to be better than something else at anything. o\ ...
Repair bonuses are bad for fleets. The "other combination of factors" that you are considering here doesn't exist on a platform that needs to be in point-blank range to apply damage and is heavily weighed down by its armor, making it difficult to get there. It works in the Mael, again, because arty's high alpha is SO MUCH BETTER--far outweighing any benefit lost from the repair bonus--for current fleet warfare, that it doesn't matter that one of the ship's bonuses are wasted.
Other than high damage really close, the Gallente ships don't particularly have that much going for them. Rail fits? Use a Rokh: it's more mobile, shoots farther and has more buffer. And besides, if you must have an armor BS for range, then everyone knows Apocs (for range) or Abaddons (for tank) are the clear winners.
|
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:09:00 -
[1924] - Quote
I hope my opinion will make since reguarding the new Hyperion change ideas.......... ARE YOU NUTS!
Right now with similar fits the hyperion does 110 dps less than the vindi. Now you want to give it an extra Drone, and more gun DPS. WITH A REP BONUS!
When the dust settles the hyp will not only do similar DPS of a Vindicator, but also have an insane active tank bonus. Also have utility highs to kill ECM drones or neut. With full flight of heavy drones, and even some backups.
This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
738
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:13:00 -
[1925] - Quote
Quote:This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.
And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:17:00 -
[1926] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:I hope my opinion will make since reguarding the new Hyperion change ideas.......... ARE YOU NUTS!
Right now with similar fits the hyperion does 110 dps less than the vindi. Now you want to give it an extra Drone, and more gun DPS. WITH A REP BONUS!
When the dust settles the hyp will not only do similar DPS of a Vindicator, but also have an insane active tank bonus. Also have utility highs to kill ECM drones or neut. With full flight of heavy drones, and even some backups.
This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS. I don't know what math you are looking at.. but it will not match the Vindi in raw DPS, much less the Vindi's other bonuses..
Also it won't get MORE Gun DPS.. It gets less.. the Bonus goes up, but it loses 2 turrets. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:22:00 -
[1927] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote: Then either drive them a Drone per level ( and the bandwidth to use it ), or another idea would be to let them fit the same mod Carriers use for additional drones/fighters ( this would be ideal if turret points remained, then you'd need to choice between more drones or turrets.. not or on the flipside, more drones, less drone control range).
You should feel bad for suggesting drone control units on BS's just like them wanting to give a BS hull carrier / logistic type bonus. You want 10 drones get a carrier. you want logistic bonus get a logistic.
Maximus Andendare wrote: Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.
You can not call for the domi to get carrier style bonus that's like asking for a dread being allowed to use a doomsday device.
Virgil Disith wrote:I had read other BS threads seeing updates to bonuses based on feed back, so I excitedly hopped over here hoping, praying something would have been done about the hyperion's worthless armor bonus.
The rep bonus is perfectly fine the tanking trouble comes from end cycle vs beginning cycle application and cycle times on relevant shield boost and armor rep modules at the end of it lots of alpha is always the solution to local tanked ships.
Maximus Andendare wrote: Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.
Love it an argument for removing a solo / small gang bonus based on stupidly large scale fights and alpha, Anything can be counter by enough of anything else. Local tanked maelstrom's with AC's are quite good at small gang combat BECAUSE OF the local tanking bonus just like the hyperion is good in a similar situation. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
158
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:24:00 -
[1928] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.
The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference. Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.
And do not outread it. No where I said that the repair bonus help it. Just htat You do nto need 2 bonuses helping .
Gosshh sometimes I wonder if people are trained to not think or its natural...
Hyperion has higher DPS than maelstrom, it has its advantages. If the current metagame does not liek that.. its not gallente ships balance problem Its a METAGAME ISSUE. Stop firing at the wrong direction dammit |
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:33:00 -
[1929] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.
And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs.
Right..... lets compare shall we?
Vigilant - slot layout - 5 / 4 / 6 (5 turrets) bonuses - 75% damage / falloff and web bonus. drones - 50 bandwith / 50 cap
Thorax - Slot layout - 5 / 4 / 5 (5 turrets) bonuses - 5% damage / 7.5% tracking drones - 50 band / 50 cap
So vigi has more damage BY FAR. and ability to nano with falloff bonus or brawl with extra low slot by only really a passive option. Otherwise they are similar but vigi still better.
Now Battleships -
Vindicator - slots - 8 / 5 / 7 (8 turrets) Bonuses - 37.5% damage / tracking and web bonus Drones - 125 band / 125 cap
Hyperion - (purposed changes) slots 7 / 5 / 7 (6 turrets) Bonuses - 10% Hybrid per level / 7.5% armor rep per level. Drones - 125 Band / 175 cap
So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. Not only that, but the slot layout both mids and lows are identical. Meaning you can place the same tank on both....... but wait Hyp gets an armor rep bonus too.. Making its Tank MUCH better than the vindis. Also the hyp now gets a full flight of Heavy drones, but also gets room for mediums and or lights with a larger bay. At least both have to use all highs for turrets for full DPS output....... oh wait thats right they gave the hyp an utility high slot too.
Now explain to me again just how the thorax and vigi comparison is the same as the hyp / vindi? Cause the way im looking at this is that the vigilant still has options, nano range ... or an exltra low for a bigger buffer tank. This new Hyp make the Vindi a completely obsolete piece of ****. This new hyp is broken! |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
130
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:40:00 -
[1930] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Suicide Smith wrote: Then either drive them a Drone per level ( and the bandwidth to use it ), or another idea would be to let them fit the same mod Carriers use for additional drones/fighters ( this would be ideal if turret points remained, then you'd need to choice between more drones or turrets.. not or on the flipside, more drones, less drone control range).
You should feel bad for suggesting drone control units on BS's just like them wanting to give a BS hull carrier / logistic type bonus. You want 10 drones get a carrier. you want logistic bonus get a logistic. Maximus Andendare wrote: Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.
You can not call for the domi to get carrier style bonus that's like asking for a dread being allowed to use a doomsday device. Virgil Disith wrote:I had read other BS threads seeing updates to bonuses based on feed back, so I excitedly hopped over here hoping, praying something would have been done about the hyperion's worthless armor bonus.
The rep bonus is perfectly fine the tanking trouble comes from end cycle vs beginning cycle application and cycle times on relevant shield boost and armor rep modules at the end of it lots of alpha is always the solution to local tanked ships. Maximus Andendare wrote: Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.
Love it an argument for removing a solo / small gang bonus based on stupidly large scale fights and alpha, Anything can be counter by enough of anything else. Local tanked maelstrom's with AC's are quite good at small gang combat BECAUSE OF the local tanking bonus just like the hyperion is good in a similar situation. You really ought to play this game before commenting on it.
First, carriers have 15 drones with the DCUs. The Domi would have 10 total. Carriers can use fighters. And I'm pretty sure the main reason to fly a carrier anyway is for triage. By your terrible logic, no ships could have bonuses any other has.
Second, ships that have dual bonuses to damage are still usable in small gangs. Ships that have a resist bonus and a damage bonus are usable by small gangs. And the argument for the removal of the local repair bonus is twofold: local armor tanking is cap intensive and performs poorly. There isn't an ASB module that armor tanked ships can fit that makes them cap-independent for tank.
Also, "stupidly large" fights aren't the push for getting rid of the local bonus or having it apply to remote reps. Again, you'd know this if you actually played the game. The main reason is that as soon as you introduce logi into a gang or fleet, which is ridiculously easy now with T1 logi, the local bonus is COMPLETELY wasted. So the argument becomes why fly a ship with one bonus when I can fly one with two?
Some experience, even a modest amount, in the field and you might actually have enough to speak credibly here. |
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:40:00 -
[1931] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:Now Battleships -
Vindicator - slots - 8 / 5 / 7 (8 turrets) Bonuses - 37.5% damage / tracking and web bonus Drones - 125 band / 125 cap
Hyperion - (purposed changes) slots 7 / 5 / 7 (6 turrets) Bonuses - 10% Hybrid per level / 7.5% armor rep per level. Drones - 125 Band / 175 cap
So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. You are wrong : 6*1,5 = 9 effective turrets 8*1,375 = 11 effective turrets
Your welcome. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
893
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:41:00 -
[1932] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.
And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs. So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. So what school did you fail basic math from? Last time I checked 6*1.5 = 9 and 8*1.375 = 11 Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
159
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:42:00 -
[1933] - Quote
I would not go so far as to call it broken. But its indeed Much more powerful than any other T1 Battleship. But I think All T1 battleship should be brought UP to this level AND navy/pirate ones buffed even further instead. We have a huge lack of battleships already (not all scenarios, but they are much much more rare than in the past) so making them a bit more powerful would not hurt eve. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:45:00 -
[1934] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level
8 + 37,5% = 11 6 + 50% = 9
...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:45:00 -
[1935] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.
And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs. So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. So what school did you fail basic math from? Last time I checked 6*1.5 = 9 and 8*1.375 = 11
Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So we lose 200 dps, for an extra utility high, more drones, A way better tank. Its still broken! |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:54:00 -
[1936] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.
And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs. Right..... lets compare shall we? Vigilant - slot layout - 5 / 4 / 6 (5 turrets) bonuses - 75% damage / falloff and web bonus. drones - 50 bandwith / 50 cap Thorax - Slot layout - 5 / 4 / 5 (5 turrets) bonuses - 5% damage / 7.5% tracking drones - 50 band / 50 cap So vigi has more damage BY FAR. and ability to nano with falloff bonus or brawl with extra low slot by only really a passive option. Otherwise they are similar but vigi still better. Now Battleships - Vindicator - slots - 8 / 5 / 7 (8 turrets) Bonuses - 37.5% damage / tracking and web bonus Drones - 125 band / 125 cap Hyperion - (purposed changes) slots 7 / 5 / 7 (6 turrets) Bonuses - 10% Hybrid per level / 7.5% armor rep per level. Drones - 125 Band / 175 cap So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. Not only that, but the slot layout both mids and lows are identical. Meaning you can place the same tank on both....... but wait Hyp gets an armor rep bonus too.. Making its Tank MUCH better than the vindis. Also the hyp now gets a full flight of Heavy drones, but also gets room for mediums and or lights with a larger bay. At least both have to use all highs for turrets for full DPS output....... oh wait thats right they gave the hyp an utility high slot too. Now explain to me again just how the thorax and vigi comparison is the same as the hyp / vindi? Cause the way im looking at this is that the vigilant still has options, nano range ... or an exltra low for a bigger buffer tank. This new Hyp make the Vindi a completely obsolete piece of ****. This new hyp is broken!
until pirate ships get the tiericide treatment any comparison is pointless but:
CCP Rise wrote:If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve. so it ultimately depends on what CCP will do with the pirate ships. |
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 16:59:00 -
[1937] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So ~25% is similar. Noted. And 200dps is nothing. it isnt when you are talking Battleship DPS. Also vindi unless in fleets run 7 turrets and a smartbomb. But im sure you have more experience using a vindicator than I do. So please enlighten me with all your Vindicator knowledge |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
893
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:01:00 -
[1938] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So ~25% is similar. Noted. And 200dps is nothing. it isnt when you are talking Battleship DPS. Also vindi unless in fleets run 7 turrets and a smartbomb. But im sure you have more experience using a vindicator than I do. So please enlighten me with all your Vindicator knowledge And in a fleet the rep bonus of the hyperion means nothing. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:02:00 -
[1939] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So ~25% is similar. Noted. And 200dps is nothing. it isnt when you are talking Battleship DPS. Also vindi unless in fleets run 7 turrets and a smartbomb. But im sure you have more experience using a vindicator than I do. So please enlighten me with all your Vindicator knowledge And in a fleet the rep bonus of the hyperion means nothing.
well then the extra low slot the vindi gets would make it a better passive tank............... oh wait................. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
160
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:06:00 -
[1940] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So ~25% is similar. Noted. And 200dps is nothing. it isnt when you are talking Battleship DPS. Also vindi unless in fleets run 7 turrets and a smartbomb. But im sure you have more experience using a vindicator than I do. So please enlighten me with all your Vindicator knowledge And in a fleet the rep bonus of the hyperion means nothing.
By your logic maelstrom sucks ball then....
Sure indeed reapir bonus are weak bonus, but imagine a hyperion with resist bonus. Would be the most bonkers ship ever in this game. |
|
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:11:00 -
[1941] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So ~25% is similar. Noted. And 200dps is nothing. it isnt when you are talking Battleship DPS. Also vindi unless in fleets run 7 turrets and a smartbomb. But im sure you have more experience using a vindicator than I do. So please enlighten me with all your Vindicator knowledge And in a fleet the rep bonus of the hyperion means nothing. By your logic maelstrom sucks ball then.... Sure indeed reapir bonus are weak bonus, but imagine a hyperion with resist bonus. Would be the most bonkers ship ever in this game.
u mean like Abaddon and Rokh? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
162
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:19:00 -
[1942] - Quote
William R Blake wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
By your logic maelstrom sucks ball then....
Sure indeed reapir bonus are weak bonus, but imagine a hyperion with resist bonus. Would be the most bonkers ship ever in this game.
u mean like Abaddon and Rokh?
Since when the abaddon has 5 mids and 125m bandwidth? Jesus! For god sake I cannto believe people are so challanged to not udnerstand simple statements without someone baby sitting their brain! |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:28:00 -
[1943] - Quote
Full flights of heavies not gonna do much in long range battle. However, in super close range battle, you are right. That 5 mids and 5 heavies maybe a bit over the top. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
893
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:33:00 -
[1944] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So ~25% is similar. Noted. And 200dps is nothing. it isnt when you are talking Battleship DPS. Also vindi unless in fleets run 7 turrets and a smartbomb. But im sure you have more experience using a vindicator than I do. So please enlighten me with all your Vindicator knowledge And in a fleet the rep bonus of the hyperion means nothing. By your logic maelstrom sucks ball then.... Sure indeed reapir bonus are weak bonus, but imagine a hyperion with resist bonus. Would be the most bonkers ship ever in this game. Not at all, but in a fleet fight it is better in most situations to fit an extra extender or plate vs an active rep Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
162
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:49:00 -
[1945] - Quote
William R Blake wrote:Full flights of heavies not gonna do much in long range battle. However, in super close range battle, you are right. That 5 mids and 5 heavies maybe a bit over the top.
BUT HEY, AT LEAST WE GALLENTE GET TO HIT ABADDON AND ROKH FACE SOMETIMES!
WHERE IN MY FREAKING SENTENCE I SAID ANYTHIGN ABOUT LONG RANGE BATTLE!!??? FOR GOD SAKE>> LEARN TO READ AND THINK!!! OMG !!! |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
52
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 18:01:00 -
[1946] - Quote
I suddenly feel an urge to get into a dualrep hyperion and blindly jump gates. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 18:23:00 -
[1947] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:You really ought to play this game before commenting on it.
First, carriers have 15 drones with the DCUs. The Domi would have 10 total. Carriers can use fighters. And I'm pretty sure the main reason to fly a carrier anyway is for triage. By your terrible logic, no ships could have bonuses any other has.
No by my logic no ships should encroach on any particular role like logi bonus on a BS or the ability to fit capital specific modules again you want 10 drones use a carrier or just go out and spend the majority of or all of your isk on a guardian vexor to get your 10 drone use on a sub capital ship.
Maximus Andendare wrote: Second, ships that have dual bonuses to damage are still usable in small gangs. Ships that have a resist bonus and a damage bonus are usable by small gangs. And the argument for the removal of the local repair bonus is twofold: local armor tanking is cap intensive and performs poorly. There isn't an ASB module that armor tanked ships can fit that makes them cap-independent for tank.
capacitor independence for ships that don't use cap and capacitor usage for them that do is kind of messed up but the ASB's and AAR's are still in an infant stage in the game and can be changed if or when CCP decide to do so until then tanking comments and capacitor independence comments for them modules should go to another thread. cap intensive well as I've stated previously in this thread you can run dual large reps on a single 800 cap charge it's the other things you do ( MWD, point, web and shoot ) that brakes it. Should your actions in combat be totally without consequence to you or your ship ???
Maximus Andendare wrote: Also, "stupidly large" fights aren't the push for getting rid of the local bonus or having it apply to remote reps. Again, you'd know this if you actually played the game. The main reason is that as soon as you introduce logi into a gang or fleet, which is ridiculously easy now with T1 logi, the local bonus is COMPLETELY wasted. So the argument becomes why fly a ship with one bonus when I can fly one with two?
i'm sorry did you overlook the niddy in this situation ( you like triage right ) 2.4 sec is all it would take ( taking into account links etc ) to rep it to FULL ( or 1.2 with two reps ) with what you are proposing this screams broken to me from a well versed triage pilot and from a BS pilot.
Maximus Andendare wrote: Some experience, even a modest amount, in the field and you might actually have enough to speak credibly here.
just because I post on a different char does not mean I don't play see: Here Here Here Here Here Part 1 Here Part 2
All around the medium size fights now lets see your credentials......... Oh look triage work |
William R Blake
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 19:24:00 -
[1948] - Quote
ah well, at least this 2nd revision is better than the 1st one. no matter what happens i will always use those ships that i like. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2539
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 19:45:00 -
[1949] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:DHB WildCat wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.
Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.
And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs. So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. So what school did you fail basic math from? Last time I checked 6*1.5 = 9 and 8*1.375 = 11 Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So we lose 200 dps, for an extra utility high, more drones, A way better tank. Its still broken! Also do you know any active tank vindi that runs 8 turrets? I know I dont. ECM drones will own you without a smartbomb.... every 8 turret ship unless in a fleet, is usually flown with 7 turrets and a smartbomb. In fact this new hyp would make one hell of a pirate faction ship! 1 vs 1 The new hyp will kick a vindis ass.
Dude the Vindi does more damage, has a freaking tracking bonus and 90% webs
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 19:57:00 -
[1950] - Quote
I don't see how the new Hyperion is encroaching on the Vindicator at all. The Vindicator gets the equivalent of two extra turrets over the Hyperion (Funny, it actually HAS two extra turrets over the Hyperion). The Vindicator's applied DPS and ability to catch ships is going to be quite a bit higher with that god-mode Federation Navy Webifier it has (I mean why would you use anything else). And while the Vindicator's active tank WILL indeed be worse, the Vindicator will have an equal passive tank for an appropriate level of higher DPS. So when it comes to Tank by Gank, the Vindicator is better. And in that case the Vindicator isn't "wasting" a bonus either. And the Vindicator gets higher EHP, more speed, etc...
Attempting to call two full turrets of DPS and a super-web "irrelevant" on a blaster ship is bogus. Trying to say the new Hyperion in some way outclasses the Vindicator is just ridiculous. The new Hyperion has become a better ship, not a broken one. Its usage is going to go up, though it will probably remain relegated to its role of solo/small gang.
I mean long story short:
Hyperion gets a flight of mediums and a better active tank than the Vindicator. It has slightly better targeting abilities. Vindicator gets super web, way higher DPS, equal passive tank, way better tracking, significantly higher EHP, MUCH better speed and agility, higher sensor strength, and a smaller signature radius. |
|
Drew Kaps
Praetorian Cohort
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:11:00 -
[1951] - Quote
So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
894
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:19:00 -
[1952] - Quote
Drew Kaps wrote:So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Drew Kaps
Praetorian Cohort
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:23:00 -
[1953] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf.
Forgive me, sir, you are correct. So this -25% damage reduction buff, will it also be applied to the Navy Domi? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
894
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:28:00 -
[1954] - Quote
Drew Kaps wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf. Forgive me, sir, you are correct. So this -25% damage reduction buff, will it also be applied to the Navy Domi? The damage application was increased and you now have 2 free mid slots. You can still do over 1k DPS at close range. You can also now fit neutron blasters and a tank. Losing the 25% damage bonus was well composited. No idea about the navy Dominix. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:29:00 -
[1955] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf.
Considering drones never had an issue hitting in the first place what exactly do you call the change? Below 40km a Geddon is a better ship and for sniping turret boats are just better because they can move.
This is a nerf until either:
drone range bonus is included drone damge bonus increased number of drones launched is increased |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
130
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:33:00 -
[1956] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:No by my logic no ships should encroach on any particular role like logi bonus on a BS or the ability to fit capital specific modules again you want 10 drones use a carrier or just go out and spend the majority of or all of your isk on a guardian vexor to get your 10 drone use on a sub capital ship. Using this crazy logic would mean that no ships can share optimal range bonuses, or neuting bonuses, or drone bonuses, or hell, any bonus as long as another ship has it, since it'd be "encroaching." Such a fail.
smoking gun81 wrote:capacitor independence for ships that don't use cap and capacitor usage for them that do is kind of messed up but the ASB's and AAR's are still in an infant stage in the game and can be changed if or when CCP decide to do so until then tanking comments and capacitor independence comments for them modules should go to another thread. cap intensive well as I've stated previously in this thread you can run dual large reps on a single 800 cap charge it's the other things you do ( MWD, point, web and shoot ) that brakes it. Should your actions in combat be totally without consequence to you or your ship ??? I don't even know what the hell you're talking about here. Since I am flying my ship in a gang or fleet without a compelling reason to lose one of the bonuses (supreme alpha strike), no, I'd rather one of the bonuses be completely wasted as soon as I choose to have another pilot take the role of repairing everyone's damage.
smoking gun81 wrote:i'm sorry did you overlook the niddy in this situation ( you like triage right ) 2.4 sec is all it would take ( taking into account links etc ) to rep it to FULL ( or 1.2 with two reps ) with what you are proposing this screams broken to me from a well versed triage pilot and from a BS pilot. I don't even know WTF you're talking about here. I'm assuming you're talking about giving a logi range bonus to the Domi, but I don't know what the F you're talking about Niddys and triage for. Adding a range bonus for reppers, for example, would be as un-gamebreaking as giving the neut range benefit to Armageddons. Again, by your failed deductive skills, giving that neut range bonus to the geddon would completely break the game for the Bhaalgorn, when this simply isn't the case. The Bhaals still have tremendously more neuting power vs a Geddon will, just as a proper T2 logi ship will have both range and repair amount over the Domi with a proposed logi range bonus. But why you're talking about triage and a Niddy (being repped?) in 2.4 seconds or...f**k it, I can't make sense of nonsense.
smoking gun81 wrote:just because I post on a different char does not mean I don't play see: HereHereHereHereHere Part 1Here Part 2All around the medium size fights now lets see your credentials......... Oh look triage work Ah cool links! Woo! Instead of watching all those YouTube videos and wishing you were as good as those pilots, you should actually play the game, learn about what you're talking about, then you can post here without sounding like an idiot. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
894
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:43:00 -
[1957] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf. Considering drones never had an issue hitting in the first place what exactly do you call the change? Below 40km a Geddon is a better ship and for sniping turret boats are just better because they can move. This is a nerf until either: drone range bonus is included drone damge bonus increased number of drones launched is increased The Armageddon is better ATM, yes changes have been being asked for that since the first post of the thread.
Control range is one of the changes needed to set the two apart. Damage is fine as is. Lol, you will never see more than 5 drones from a sub cap. Saving the Gardian-Vexor of course.
I do not call it a nerf because it is not, but it still could use more work. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Drew Kaps
Praetorian Cohort
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 21:46:00 -
[1958] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf. Forgive me, sir, you are correct. So this -25% damage reduction buff, will it also be applied to the Navy Domi? The damage application was increased and you now have 2 free mid slots. You can still do over 1k DPS at close range. You can also now fit neutron blasters and a tank. Losing the 25% damage bonus was well composited. No idea about the navy Dominix.
I see. Thanks! Guess I just need to ride out the changes and hope nothing gets changed with the Navy Domi. |
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 22:00:00 -
[1959] - Quote
What if the Hyperion gets the new changes but make the rep bonus apply to all reps be it local or remote.
The Megathron do the change but since it has low EHP or speed if you stack plates, give it back its 5 big drones.
The Domimix changes are not good at all. Lose DPS for something useless. Yes you can gain some mids if you drop the maybe no longer needed as much omnidirectional trackers. But for what unless there is something to gain of = value.
If that really is the direction you want to take the Domi in, give it a bonus drone control range as well so it can fit 6 guns to make up for the loss of bonused turret dps. |
Jasmine Shepard
Relentless Destruction
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 22:05:00 -
[1960] - Quote
These new changes look totally kickass and I can't wait to try out these new battleships!
Looks like the hyperion gets more tank as well as more dps from the increased drone bay/bandwidth, love that you can field a full set of heavies as well as some extra lights.
I actually kind of like the mega changes as most fits that i used you had to break an arm and a leg to fit a heavy neut on it. The extra low will make it better in fleets i think.
The domi doesn't seem like it's changed all that much other than a buff to drones and it'll be interesting to see overall how the new sentry domi works.
Overall great changes IMO! Keep up the goodwork kil2... errr I mean ccp Rise. |
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 22:29:00 -
[1961] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The Armageddon is better ATM No, it isn't. The dominix was the only T1 drone BS, and he now have a brother. Dominix is not alone anymore in its class. It will be hard for the dominix lovers to see it share some place with a little brother. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
640
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 22:57:00 -
[1962] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The Armageddon is better ATM No, it isn't. The dominix was the only T1 drone BS, and he now have a brother. Dominix is not alone anymore in its class. It will be hard for the dominix lovers to see it share some place with a little brother. The fact that there are 2 ships occupying the same role makes this claim possible rather than invalidating it. Realistically the 2nd bonus on the Domi is more situational and harder to take advantage of than the geddon's bonus. Considering the similarity between them now it's a fair comparison. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 23:00:00 -
[1963] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote: You really ought to play this game before commenting on it.
First, carriers have 15 drones with the DCUs. The Domi would have 10 total. Carriers can use fighters. And I'm pretty sure the main reason to fly a carrier anyway is for triage. By your terrible logic, no ships could have bonuses any other has.
And the argument for the removal of the local repair bonus is twofold: local armor tanking is cap intensive and performs poorly. There isn't an ASB module that armor tanked ships can fit that makes them cap-independent for tank.
local armor tanking works as well as the pilot that pilots the ship if you can not get it working well go play another game. Two Large armor reps use a combination of 800 Gj coinsidently the same amount that an 800 cap charge gives and the LARGÇÖs cycle longer than the cap injector ( 15 sec vs 10 sec ) so you always got cap bring armor warfare links into this and you get better cycle time and less cap usage. Also the LAAR uses the same cap and when loaded with nanite paste gets a bonus to the repair output a thing that the cap isolated ASB do not.
Maximus Andendare wrote:just as a proper T2 logi ship will have both range and repair amount over the Domi with a proposed logi range bonus.
This is just pure crap NO T2 logi ship gets an RR module amount bonus only the niddy gets a 5% to Shied and armor RR amount it is all range bonus hence encroaching on logistic ships bonusGÇÖs and iGÇÖm such a failure ??? The T1's get one to make them more viable.
Maximus Andendare wrote:But why you're talking about triage and a Niddy (being repped?) in 2.4 seconds or...f**k it, I can't make sense of nonsense.
Are you asking for a local tanking bonus of 7.5% and 7.5% incomming repair effectivness to be applied to a niddy no you want it applied to a hyp I was showing you how long it would take to rep a ship ( again the hyp ) with a ship that had a projected RR bonus ( example the triage niddyy try and keep up ) with links and all.
Maximus Andendare wrote:Ah cool links! Woo! Instead of watching all those YouTube videos and wishing you were as good as those pilots, you should actually play the game, learn about what you're talking about, then you can post here without sounding like an idiot.
Thanks for the props on my previos exploits in eve although comming from someone that belives T2 logi ships have an amount increase in RR modules makes the props oohh so worthless.
P.S. I made a special comment for you on this video can you read the description |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
131
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 00:44:00 -
[1964] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:local armor tanking works as well as the pilot that pilots the ship if you can not get it working well go play another game. Two Large armor reps use a combination of 800 Gj coinsidently the same amount that an 800 cap charge gives and the LARGÇÖs cycle longer than the cap injector ( 15 sec vs 10 sec ) so you always got cap bring armor warfare links into this and you get better cycle time and less cap usage. Also the LAAR uses the same cap and when loaded with nanite paste gets a bonus to the repair output a thing that the cap isolated ASB do not. This only further shows how uninformed you are at this game. The Devs themselves have even stated that armor tanking is in a terrible state. At this point, you're just embarrassing yourself more with every post.
smoking gun81 wrote:This is just pure crap NO T2 logi ship gets an RR module amount bonus only the niddy gets a 5% to Shied and armor RR amount it is all range bonus hence encroaching on logistic ships bonusGÇÖs and iGÇÖm such a failure ??? The T1's get one to make them more viable. Wow, you are bad. Typical Oneiros repair amount per 5 sec cycle: 1886. Comparably-fit Dominix repair amount per cycle: 1711. Whoa! 1886 > 1711, or ~10%. Numbers are hard. See that? The T2 Logi ship reps for more.
I know you're going to ask, because ship fitting is probably incomprehensible to you, but here you go (the important bits): 4x Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction and 5x Medium Repair Drone IIs. Because of those drones, the dedicated Logi ship experiences a ten percent buff over the non-buffed repair amount of the unbonused Domi. Now you see how bad it is to waste a bonus?
smoking gun81 wrote:Are you asking for a local tanking bonus of 7.5% and 7.5% incomming repair effectivness to be applied to a niddy no you want it applied to a hyp I was showing you how long it would take to rep a ship ( again the hyp ) with a ship that had a projected RR bonus ( example the triage niddyy try and keep up ) with links and all. LOL. Now you're just making things up. I never stated that I wanted the local repair bonus to apply to RR in its current state. Again, you probably want to read up before you go making accusations and spewing out garbage.
smoking gun81 wrote:Thanks for the props on my previos exploits in eve although comming from someone that belives T2 logi ships have an amount increase in RR modules makes the props oohh so worthless. P.S. I made a special comment for you on this video can you read the description I'm truly sorry that you don't know how to play Eve, yet you feel compelled to try and "prove" to everyone reading this that you can. :-/ At this point, I see no reason to continue to respond to your stupidity. Have fun with it. I'm sure you'll respond and "get me," but oh well. Can't fix stupid, not even with bonuses. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2247
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 00:50:00 -
[1965] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The Armageddon is better ATM No, it isn't. The dominix was the only T1 drone BS, and he now have a brother. Dominix is not alone anymore in its class. It will be hard for the dominix lovers to see it share some place with a little brother. Not alone anymore... true. And few have a problem with this. The problem is that the Armageddon overshadows the Dominix at close range (better tank, tactically more flexible, neut bonus, etc). And other ships overshadow the Dominix in the role it's being "encouraged" into (sentry sniping). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 01:01:00 -
[1966] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:The problem is that the Armageddon overshadows the Dominix at close range (better tank, tactically more flexible, neut bonus, etc). And other ships overshadow the Dominix in the role it's being "encouraged" into (sentry sniping). In fact, the tank difference is meaningless, and the dominix is the most flexible of the two, because of the mid slots. Gun dps is rather balanced : the dominix have one more turret hardpoint, which mean better use of weapon damage module, but the geddon have more weapon slots wich offset this. As for the sentry thing, that was already something the dominix do a lot, and while sentries have inherent drawback, they don't overlap with turrets more than missiles for example. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
431
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 02:01:00 -
[1967] - Quote
good nerfs, keep going this is just what we needed |
Drew Kaps
Praetorian Cohort
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 02:49:00 -
[1968] - Quote
Jasmine Shepard wrote:
The domi doesn't seem like it's changed all that much other than a buff to drones and it'll be interesting to see overall how the new sentry domi works.
CCP Rise wrote:
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Personally, I'm already training to fly a 'geddon. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 05:24:00 -
[1969] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf.
Considering drones never had an issue hitting in the first place what exactly do you call the change? Below 40km a Geddon is a better ship and for sniping turret boats are just better because they can move. This is a nerf until either: drone range bonus is included drone damge bonus increased number of drones launched is increased I've said it before and I'll say it again, I personally feel that adding a drone MWD bonus would make the new Domi a really interesting choice for the drone aficionado. Heavy drones that get there fast enough to matter and with enough tracking to hit targets smaller than a battlecruiser: yes please!
Yeah, I guess Drone Navi Comps exist, maybe I'll try that. But they aren't as effective on heavies because of the flat thrust bonus instead of percentage-based.
For now, it looks like it will get a big buff to sentry drones and a lot less to heavies (although the tracking still helps them).
P.S. don't bother asking for drone damage buff beyond the 10% per level it already gets, I mean really, what? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
640
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 06:09:00 -
[1970] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:The problem is that the Armageddon overshadows the Dominix at close range (better tank, tactically more flexible, neut bonus, etc). And other ships overshadow the Dominix in the role it's being "encouraged" into (sentry sniping). In fact, the tank difference is meaningless, and the dominix is the most flexible of the two, because of the mid slots. Gun dps is rather balanced : the dominix have one more turret hardpoint, which mean better use of weapon damage module, but the geddon have more weapon slots wich offset this. As for the sentry thing, that was already something the dominix do a lot, and while sentries have inherent drawback, they don't overlap with turrets more than missiles for example. Without the damage bonus aren't you better off with DDA's? If so the advantage there loses a good portion of its practicality. As for the rest, are dominix fleet doctrines really something likely to become prolific in the face of carriers for drone alternatives or turreted ships which don't leave their dps behind when they move? That is the only real full use of the bonus. |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2540
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 06:49:00 -
[1971] - Quote
Drew Kaps wrote:Jasmine Shepard wrote:
The domi doesn't seem like it's changed all that much other than a buff to drones and it'll be interesting to see overall how the new sentry domi works.
CCP Rise wrote:
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Personally, I'm already training to fly a 'geddon.
Why? You've never done any PVP, and for PVE Domi is certainly the superior choice.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
129
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 07:59:00 -
[1972] - Quote
Roime wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:Jasmine Shepard wrote:
The domi doesn't seem like it's changed all that much other than a buff to drones and it'll be interesting to see overall how the new sentry domi works.
CCP Rise wrote:
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Personally, I'm already training to fly a 'geddon. Why? You've never done any PVP, and for PVE Domi is certainly the superior choice.
Well unless there are changes to drones then I'll be swapping from domi to geddon too, and I do pvp. The sentry bonus as things stand right now is nowhere near as useful as the neut range bonus in the majority of situations I enjoy fighting in. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2541
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 08:03:00 -
[1973] - Quote
Gardes that track like dual TE Blastos with antimatter? I'll certainly find uses for that.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
304
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 08:16:00 -
[1974] - Quote
Nikuno wrote:Well unless there are changes to drones then I'll be swapping from domi to geddon too, and I do pvp. The sentry bonus as things stand right now is nowhere near as useful as the neut range bonus in the majority of situations I enjoy fighting in. The ship being bad or useless and you having no use for it are two completely different and mostly unrelated things. If your primary use of the dominix is as a neutralizing platform, indeed the armageddon will be better ; otherwise, I'm not sure. |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 11:25:00 -
[1975] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: The damage application was increased and you now have 2 free mid slots. You can still do over 1k DPS at close range. You can also now fit neutron blasters and a tank. Losing the 25% damage bonus was well composited. No idea about the navy Dominix.
Two free mid slots? Pray tell me how?
Domi has 5 mid slots. So I have three slots for MWD + tackle. At least one slot for a cap injector. That is 4 (four).
I can use the remaining mid to fit an ECCM, a second cap injector, or a second web. Sometimes I even fit or a drone navigation computer (for specific purposes), but I know it is not a popular option.
There are few, if any, reasonable Domi fits that would sacrifice two mid slots for better drone tracking. Now if you use your Domi for missions, sure, the new one looks good. More EHP, better cap stability because of them midlslots, and super-bonused sentries. Thing is, it does not matter how good (or bad) it is for missions. It is a ship with a mostly-useless secondary bonus.
Other races do much better in that regard. And given the current rather pitiful state of Gallente (even *after* hybrid buff), I think CCP can do better than what they propose. Especially since T1 cruiser and frig changes have been by and large awesome (thanks, Rise and Fozzie!). |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 11:38:00 -
[1976] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Nikuno wrote:Well unless there are changes to drones then I'll be swapping from domi to geddon too, and I do pvp. The sentry bonus as things stand right now is nowhere near as useful as the neut range bonus in the majority of situations I enjoy fighting in. The ship being bad or useless and you having no use for it are two completely different and mostly unrelated things. If your primary use of the dominix is as a neutralizing platform, indeed the armageddon will be better ; otherwise, I'm not sure.
No, he's right - the new Domi is mostly useful only for missions.
Turret (and now cruise) ships will be better snipers, because they can move. The only advantages Domi has is choice of damage and infinite ammo, and neither is all that important for most PvP situations.
Sure, you can conjure some other scenarios where it will be "useful". Problem is, other races' ships are just generally more useful, and better than the Domi in all possible ways. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 11:45:00 -
[1977] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drew Kaps wrote:So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi? What nerf? It could still use some love but there was hardly a nerf. Considering drones never had an issue hitting in the first place Not sure if my drones are just always potato counters or if this statement is genuinely deserving of a healthy dose of RUFKNSRS |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 12:00:00 -
[1978] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:This only further shows how uninformed you are at this game. The Devs themselves have even stated that armor tanking is in a terrible state. At this point, you're just embarrassing yourself more with every post.
Terrible state does not mean unworkable....
smoking gun81 wrote:This is just pure crap NO T2 logi ship gets an RR module amount bonus only the niddy gets a 5% to Shied and armor RR amount it is all range bonus hence encroaching on logistic ships bonusGÇÖs and iGÇÖm such a failure ??? The T1's get one to make them more viable.
Maximus Andendare wrote:Wow, you are bad. Typical Oneiros repair amount per 5 sec cycle: 1886. Comparably-fit Dominix repair amount per cycle: 1711. Whoa! 1886 > 1711, or ~10%. Numbers are hard. See that? The T2 Logi ship reps for more.
listen I know reading and comprehention is hard so I will repeat NO T2 LOGI GETS AN RR MODULE BONUS. Bettter get training reading to level 5. No one is going to just fit 4 RR to a domi if it gets an RR bonus they are going to fit 6 and not the meta 4's either ( T2's are quite easy to fit to an oneiros also ) making your math totally wrong ( domi 2304 no drones {same med drones 2479 } > oneiros 1886 with drones ). Would you look at that a domi just out RR'd a logi this is why what you're suggesting is just BAD
Comparison is good but it has to be ship vs ship not slots vs slots I know I would put 6 RR's on a domi if it got such a logi bonus so your comparison is flawed.
Maximus Andendare wrote:I know you're going to ask, because ship fitting is probably incomprehensible to you, but here you go (the important bits): 4x Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction and 5x Medium Repair Drone II s. Because of those drones, the dedicated Logi ship experiences a ten percent buff over the non-buffed repair amount of the unbonused Domi. Now you see how bad it is to waste a bonus?
not realy as soon as you mentioned meta 4 RR's i giggled. wasting slots is just as bad if you're going to do comparisons do it right ship vs ship.
Maximus Andendare wrote:I'm truly sorry that you don't know how to play Eve, yet you feel compelled to try and "prove" to everyone reading this that you can. :-/ At this point, I see no reason to continue to respond to your stupidity. Have fun with it. I'm sure you'll respond and "get me," but oh well. Can't fix stupid, not even with bonuses.
That sounds like a personaly focused insult in the space of a few pages you have proven your maturity by attempting to use profanity and insulting people that do not agree with your views I sugest you read this again but don't worry I got this
|
smokeydapot
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 13:08:00 -
[1979] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Wow, you are bad. Typical Oneiros repair amount per 5 sec cycle: 1886. Comparably-fit Dominix repair amount per cycle: 1711. Whoa! 1886 > 1711, or ~10%. Numbers are hard. See that? The T2 Logi ship reps for more. I know you're going to ask, because ship fitting is probably incomprehensible to you, but here you go (the important bits): 4x Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction and 5x Medium Repair Drone IIs. Because of those drones, the dedicated Logi ship experiences a ten percent buff over the non-buffed repair amount of the unbonused Domi. Now you see how bad it is to waste a bonus? No logistics drones are relegated to EFT warrior's like what you appear to be, high sec scrubs and POS repair no self respecting logistic pilot wants to loose repair power when drones go pop as they often do flight time also makes them inpractical. Drone bay's are used for the likes of E-war drones or combat drones regardless of bonus or lack thereof.
smoking gun81 wrote:No one is going to just fit 4 RR to a domi if it gets an RR bonus they are going to fit 6 So true
smoking gun81 wrote:T2's are quite easy to fit to an oneiros intresting but also true just confirmed this on sisi the less cycle time will come in useful for my alts logistics pilot.
Maximus Andendare wrote:Now you see how bad it is to waste a bonus? logistic drones as I just said ( but your personal vendetta against the other guy may have blinded you to real universe application ) are relegated to EFT warriors, high sec scrubs and POS repair simply because no logistics group wants to wait for drone flight time before any additional repair bonus apply. go get some experience....
Now can the pair of you shut up I'm trying to follow other posts for inspiration.
On a more thread focused line of thought give me an 8 turret mega ( best suggestion I've seen so far and keeps in line with the mega hull progression to the vindicator). |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 14:49:00 -
[1980] - Quote
smokeydapot wrote:On a more thread focused line of thought give me an 8 turret mega ( best suggestion I've seen so far and keeps in line with the mega hull progression to the vindicator).
Just throwing this one out there..
8 Turret Mega, Tracking and Falloff bonus. Highslots come from the lows, cause really 4 is the minimum for mids on the BS in my book, I'd generally rather see 5.
Gives it a little range, a little dps, and keeps it good against faster ships like BC's and Cruisers..
That said I don't fly the Mega a whole lot.. |
|
smokeydapot
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 16:12:00 -
[1981] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote:smokeydapot wrote:On a more thread focused line of thought give me an 8 turret mega ( best suggestion I've seen so far and keeps in line with the mega hull progression to the vindicator). Just throwing this one out there.. 8 Turret Mega, Tracking and Falloff bonus. Highslots come from the lows, cause really 4 is the minimum for mids on the BS in my book, I'd generally rather see 5. Gives it a little range, a little dps, and keeps it good against faster ships like BC's and Cruisers.. That said I don't fly the Mega a whole lot..
I'm going to agree with this as it appears to be a solid option for the mega although I think this was some others idea ( I started reading backwards to find out what the children was arguing about ) and found this on page 90 but I can't go bashing you for retaining something from this near 100 page thread. You sir get a like +1
smoking gun81 wrote:If the mega takes a hit on its drone use I believe it should have an extra turret ( total of 8 turrets ) with a drone bay around the 50 - 75m3 mark and a bandwidth of 50 Mbit/sec with a slot loadout of 8-4-7. Hell you could even give the mega an E-War bonus something like: +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed and Large Hybrid Turret falloff per Level + 7.5% ( +10% would make it fall more inline with the Armageddon E-war bonus that everyone is so concerned about ) bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level
While I'm not to sure about the E-war bonus a little more fall off would be welcome in my book. But then again it does add to an interesting concept having a point range bonus on one of the most iconic ships next to the Nyx for the Gallente.
Something tells me this guy just loves to fly his Megathron and not just EFT arguments. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
129
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:53:00 -
[1982] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Nikuno wrote:Well unless there are changes to drones then I'll be swapping from domi to geddon too, and I do pvp. The sentry bonus as things stand right now is nowhere near as useful as the neut range bonus in the majority of situations I enjoy fighting in. The ship being bad or useless and you having no use for it are two completely different and mostly unrelated things. If your primary use of the dominix is as a neutralizing platform, indeed the armageddon will be better ; otherwise, I'm not sure.
I didn't state anything about either ship being bad or useless, nor did I state I had no use for it. I quite specifically stated that "in the majority of situations I enjoy fighting in" that the domi bonus, as drones stand currently, would be less useful than the Geddon's bonus.
You really are far too defensive. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
136
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 19:56:00 -
[1983] - Quote
smokeydapot wrote:No logistics drones are relegated to EFT warrior's like what you appear to be, high sec scrubs and POS repair no self respecting logistic pilot wants to loose repair power when drones go pop as they often do flight time also makes them inpractical. Drone bay's are used for the likes of E-war drones or combat drones regardless of bonus or lack thereof. I'll take a minute to respond to your specific comments. Just because you and others have opted out of using repair drones doesn't mean that you can negate them from the equation. Logistics drones serve a purpose to greatly increase the amount by an estimated 18-22% hp per second. Choosing to use ECM or combat drones to ***** on the killmails, again, doesn't remove the effect repair drones could have in the situation. And if you're using them, which I have seen fleets do when their pilots are less concerned with whoring on killmails, and people are shooting them, then that's great, because they are taking dps off my logi target, increasing his ehp/s received from my RR.
smokeydapot wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:No one is going to just fit 4 RR to a domi if it gets an RR bonus they are going to fit 6 So true smokeydapot wrote:smoking gun81 wrote:T2's are quite easy to fit to an oneiros intresting but also true just confirmed this on sisi the less cycle time will come in useful for my alts logistics pilot. logistic drones as I just said ( but your personal vendetta against the other guy may have blinded you to real universe application ) are relegated to EFT warriors, high sec scrubs and POS repair simply because no logistics group wants to wait for drone flight time before any additional repair bonus apply. go get some experience.... Now can the pair of you shut up I'm trying to follow other posts for inspiration. On a more thread focused line of thought give me an 8 turret mega ( best suggestion I've seen so far and keeps in line with the mega hull progression to the vindicator). And if your friend, here, Captain Slow had a brain cell, he'd realize that obviously the comparison doesn't matter for which modules are used, as long as they are both equally compared. It's the relative difference that's important; I could have used Meta 0s and still have come out with the same percent difference. Further, there would obviously need to be further changes to balance out (giving the Domi a range bonus), and that nobody would equivocate a 6-slot repair Domi to a 4-slot repair T2 Logi. And your idea of a Logi pilot not wanting to wait for "drone flight time before additional repair" is a personal choice. If the Logi pilot doesn't want additional repairs, that's on the individual. It doesn't fault the Logi ship or its potential because the pilot chooses to not use the tools available and instead opts for whoring on killmails.
But he would know if that if he wasn't so damn stupid. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:38:00 -
[1984] - Quote
Additionally, the Oneiros of course gets the cap usage reduction of its RR modules so that it can actually be cap stable, while the Domi would need to run dual cap boosters just to not cap out instantly. |
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 21:50:00 -
[1985] - Quote
I like the new Domi idea, and hope that it will be extended to the Navy Domi.
Huge tracking advantages for sentries sounds good, and unbonused high slots makes for interesting fits, from projectile, hybrid, laser, RR. In most PVE fits you'll only see 5 or 4 turrets as you need a drone link augmenter or two for most missions.
I would like to see some sort of sentry drone recall (drone tractor system built into the hull?) so you can actually move with a droneboat and enable more flexible sentry RR fleet doctrines and the ability to use droneboats in missions where the gates are far apart. As is you can't even orbit your drones with any confidence of being able to recall them; even one 3500 m away means you have to turn around and approach, taking an extra 15-30 seconds which is more than a little irritating.
Increasing the sig radius is bad form when the Domi is currently a sentry boat because it already has to sit still and speed tanking isn't much of an option.
This seems like a more flexible and useful ship that is more explicitly drone oriented. The fit that suffers the most is the 2000 dps brawler with a full rack of neutrons and heavies, and I'm sure that will make some people sad. |
smokeydapot
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:12:00 -
[1986] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:I'll take a minute to respond to your specific comments. Just because you and others have opted out of using repair drones doesn't mean that you can negate them from the equation. Logistics drones serve a purpose to greatly increase the amount by an estimated 18-22% hp per second. Choosing to use ECM or combat drones to ***** on the killmails, again, doesn't remove the effect repair drones could have in the situation. And if you're using them, which I have seen fleets do when their pilots are less concerned with whoring on killmails, and people are shooting them, then that's great, because they are taking dps off my logi target, increasing his ehp/s received from my RR.
Listen this thread is not about the introduction of a bonus that has never applied to a BS to be brought into the game it is about balance / rebalance or did you not read the opening post here let me quote it for you:
CCP Rise wrote:Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!
Ooppss did I just quote the post that you should know so well by page 99 and you're claiming some sort of superior intelligence over the guy keeping to the topic at hand balance and rebalance. I have more respect for my so called friend because at least he's been constructive and offers something you don't civility.
Maximus Andendare wrote:And if your friend, here, Captain Slow had a brain cell
Not my friend but he's on topic you're not, He's not insulting people you are and he's not focused on a non existant bonus in the BS range you are. And yet i'm still confused how what you are so strongly arguing and insulting people for applies to balance or rebalance.
Maximus Andendare wrote:And your idea of a Logi pilot not wanting to wait for "drone flight time before additional repair" is a personal choice. If the Logi pilot doesn't want additional repairs, that's on the individual. It doesn't fault the Logi ship or its potential because the pilot chooses to not use the tools available and instead opts for whoring on killmails.
But he would know if that if he wasn't so damn stupid.
You're off topic You're insulting Nothing you have suggested ( that I have read so far ) has any relevance to balance / rebalance. Sorry but out of the two of you that I told to shut up you're the only one that appears stupid go read the opening post again.
Back to the thread at hand.
Hyperion Makes me sad to see it go from 8 turrets to 6 Does it really need more power grid even after loosing two turrets ( even if it is only +250 ). Nice to see it keeping the repair bonus ( despite the argument about local armor tanking ).
Dominix shields, armor and hull all getting a nice increase. increased cap amount is nice although not really needed IMO Drone bay could do with attention three flights of heavy / sentry drones for a focused drone boat when the ammar gets the exact same bay make it bigger even if it's only by 25m3.
And back to work I go with the expectation of reading another non constructive, puerile and infantile post from people that have forgotten what this thread is supposed to be about. |
Jinde Usoko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:29:00 -
[1987] - Quote
smokeydapot wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:I'll take a minute to respond to your specific comments. Just because you and others have opted out of using repair drones doesn't mean that you can negate them from the equation. Logistics drones serve a purpose to greatly increase the amount by an estimated 18-22% hp per second. Choosing to use ECM or combat drones to ***** on the killmails, again, doesn't remove the effect repair drones could have in the situation. And if you're using them, which I have seen fleets do when their pilots are less concerned with whoring on killmails, and people are shooting them, then that's great, because they are taking dps off my logi target, increasing his ehp/s received from my RR. Listen this thread is not about the introduction of a bonus that has never applied to a BS to be brought into the game it is about balance / rebalance or did you not read the opening post here let me quote it for you: CCP Rise wrote:Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts! Ooppss did I just quote the post that you should know so well by page 99 and you're claiming some sort of superior intelligence over the guy keeping to the topic at hand balance and rebalance. I have more respect for my so called friend because at least he's been constructive and offers something you don't civility. I guess if you want to say that you can't think that the geddon is getting a bonus that's never been added to a BS and call it balance. neut range is something new for BS. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:23:00 -
[1988] - Quote
Jovat wrote:I like the new Domi idea, and hope that it will be extended to the Navy Domi.
Huge tracking advantages for sentries sounds good, and unbonused high slots makes for interesting fits, from projectile, hybrid, laser, RR. In most PVE fits you'll only see 5 or 4 turrets as you need a drone link augmenter or two for most missions.
I would like to see some sort of sentry drone recall (drone tractor system built into the hull?) so you can actually move with a droneboat and enable more flexible sentry RR fleet doctrines and the ability to use droneboats in missions where the gates are far apart. As is you can't even orbit your drones with any confidence of being able to recall them; even one 3500 m away means you have to turn around and approach, taking an extra 15-30 seconds which is more than a little irritating.
Increasing the sig radius is bad form when the Domi is currently a sentry boat because it already has to sit still and speed tanking isn't much of an option.
This seems like a more flexible and useful ship that is more explicitly drone oriented. The fit that suffers the most is the 2000 dps brawler with a full rack of neutrons and heavies, and I'm sure that will make some people sad.
You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 03:18:00 -
[1989] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:Jovat wrote:I like the new Domi idea, and hope that it will be extended to the Navy Domi.
Huge tracking advantages for sentries sounds good, and unbonused high slots makes for interesting fits, from projectile, hybrid, laser, RR. In most PVE fits you'll only see 5 or 4 turrets as you need a drone link augmenter or two for most missions.
I would like to see some sort of sentry drone recall (drone tractor system built into the hull?) so you can actually move with a droneboat and enable more flexible sentry RR fleet doctrines and the ability to use droneboats in missions where the gates are far apart. As is you can't even orbit your drones with any confidence of being able to recall them; even one 3500 m away means you have to turn around and approach, taking an extra 15-30 seconds which is more than a little irritating.
Increasing the sig radius is bad form when the Domi is currently a sentry boat because it already has to sit still and speed tanking isn't much of an option.
This seems like a more flexible and useful ship that is more explicitly drone oriented. The fit that suffers the most is the 2000 dps brawler with a full rack of neutrons and heavies, and I'm sure that will make some people sad. You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also. I think it's an exaggeration to say "major nerf". I do think it's fair to say this is a step back, or at best a confused step sideways, but "major" is IMO an overstatement. The drone optimal/tracking buff, which is basically a sentry buff, probably isn't enough by itself to help the Domi into a new role that makes up for the loss in turret damage, but it will still find applications; and don't forget the extra powergrid might help you fit better guns or other modules to compensate for the unbonused damage, not to mention the extra cap and tank. And maybe they will actually be fast in the "drone rework" that they are supposedly doing and it will give this Dominix a useful and unique place other than ratting with super-Gardes.
Also, hasn't it already been confirmed that Navy ships will be unaffected? |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 04:39:00 -
[1990] - Quote
Tom Guhl wrote:...maybe they will actually be fast in the "drone rework" that they are supposedly doing and it will give this Dominix a useful and unique place other than ratting with super-Gardes.
Also, hasn't it already been confirmed that Navy ships will be unaffected?
CCP Rise will be touching on the Navy boats soon. I think most of his work has been good so far but I'm still face-palming over the Domi.
Sadly, I'm sure the metrics that CCP is using shows that people are running sentry Domis a lot. This probably due to a low-SP fit to get into L4's quickly that has spread around. /tinfoil hat
I'm sure CCP thinks they are giving us what we want but adding more AFK to the ratter-Domi setup is not going to get anyone more into this game. Most of the credible people here have also discounted the fleet option unless CCP has something up their sleeve with how sentries function that they haven't shared yet. But of course, dropping this change on us before such a changes are done is bad.
Probably one of the reasons this is getting so much debate is that T1 BS are people's "home" ship for a large amount of career time in Eve and few BS are having their roles restricted or changed as much as the Dominix. |
|
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 04:42:00 -
[1991] - Quote
double post |
Zoldarion Katelo
Sword And Plow
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 05:03:00 -
[1992] - Quote
Since the bonuses are now making the Domi a pure out and out drone boat would really like it to have the option of using heavy drones instead of sentries. Im not sure if the drone optimal range is really required as there are several ways in thhe game to manipulate that already and it could get to a point where people will only use Garde II's for sentry boats as they will be able to get them sniping out well over 100km. Instead i would love to see the bonus as: 10% drone tracking and 10-15% heavy drone speed per lvl. This way drone boats might have the option of trying out heavies instead of being forced to use sentries cause heavies are just so slow at this time that they are waste of time to use alot of the time. Also with the current style of play the domi seems to be being forced into with these changes i.e. sentry boat it seems non sensical to me to increase its sig size since it is a sitting duck already.
Another idea would be give the domi bonuses some drone control range, so that it can make up for losing its + turret bonus by being able to drop drone links for extra turrets. |
baltec1
Bat Country
6033
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 05:28:00 -
[1993] - Quote
Suicide Smith wrote:smokeydapot wrote:On a more thread focused line of thought give me an 8 turret mega ( best suggestion I've seen so far and keeps in line with the mega hull progression to the vindicator). Just throwing this one out there.. 8 Turret Mega, Tracking and Falloff bonus. Highslots come from the lows, cause really 4 is the minimum for mids on the BS in my book, I'd generally rather see 5. Gives it a little range, a little dps, and keeps it good against faster ships like BC's and Cruisers.. That said I don't fly the Mega a whole lot..
I do fly it a lot and I like the changes more than this idea. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 05:33:00 -
[1994] - Quote
smokeydapot wrote: Back to the thread at hand.
Hyperion Makes me sad to see it go from 8 turrets to 6 Does it really need more power grid even after loosing two turrets ( even if it is only +250 ). Nice to see it keeping the repair bonus ( despite the argument about local armor tanking ).
Dominix shields, armor and hull all getting a nice increase. increased cap amount is nice although not really needed IMO Drone bay could do with attention three flights of heavy / sentry drones for a focused drone boat when the ammar gets the exact same bay make it bigger even if it's only by 25m3.
I think the powergrid boost after losing the two turrets is to make the Hyperion's new utility high less of a "well I guess I don't have enough fitting room to put something here" and allow for things such as heavy Noses. Since the majority of Hyperions will be dual or tri repped with heavy rigging on the side (which now increase PG requirements for local armor) and the obvious cap booster arrangement, I think the small boost coupled with the loss of the turrets is going to even itself out.
And to be honest giving the Dominix an extra 25m3 of drone bay space just isn't enough (in my opinion) to restore some of the pain the Geddon just inflicted on it. (In that now that the Geddon has totally taken over the NuetDroner and the loss of high powered and bonused blasters is lowering the appeal of the close range DPS monster) |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 06:08:00 -
[1995] - Quote
Actually I would like to take a minute to address drones and the new Dominix.
As it seems right now we're getting the new bonus of: +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
This MOSTLY affects Sentry drones. You can pretend it doesn't affect the other drones, but it does. It lets Mediums hit frigates better and Heavies hit cruisers harder (and more consistently in both cases). Grab a friend with a frigate and cruiser on SiSi and test the drone's performance with a Dominix equipped with dual OTLs and without. The difference isn't mind boggling but it's there, and it allows the Dominix more consistently applied DPS.
But anyway, it MOSTLY affects Sentry drones, like everyone in this thread already knows. So what's the problem with that? Well, to a certain extent, none. Sentry drones are awesome and giving them a range/tracking bonus really WOULD help set the Dominix apart from the Armageddon. I say would because BY ITSELF it isn't enough. So something needs to change.
One of the biggest problems is Drone Control Range. From a gameplay and lore perspective drone control range makes sense. But for SENTRY drones it doesn't. The idea behind Drone Control Range is that you have a limited space within which to stream information and commands to your drones. So, I ask, WHY does this apply to Sentry Drones? They're (normally) sitting right next to you the whole time. If I can lock a target 120+km out (with SeBos that will be equipped instead of OTLs with this rebalance) my beautifully optimally buffed Bouncer IIs SHOULD be able to start sniping it. And I shouldn't have to have my high slots filled with heavy CPU stealing Drone Link Augmentor IIs. There is no sense to the Drone Control Range hindering sentries in that sense. Instead, the Drone Control Range should come into effect for your distance from the drones, not (necessarily) the target. I say necessarily because in the case of Attack/Scout drones, where they will have to move TO said target, target distance stops being a non-issue and the drones shouldn't be able to comply.
I personally see no reason why, if I'm 59km from my Warden IIs, and my target is another 100km away from me, why I can't stream that targeting information to the Sentry drones and have them engage my target. I DO see why I shouldn't be able to sick a flight of 10km/s (DNC boosted) Warrior IIs on them. If there is a serious gameplay balance issue with this, please enlighten me because I personally don't see it.
So yeah, I think that change alone could really help the Dominix stand out from the Armageddon, at least as a drone sniper. This problem does nothing to solve that sentries can't move/etc. and that still needs to be addressed. In fact it all needs to be addressed in my opinion. I think that such a simple change would actually be more beneficial than a drone control range ship bonus as it leaves the Dominix's attack drones regulated to the 60km maximum, but the sentry drones become far more viable in comparison, but all drones for the ship are still getting a nice little buff.
I'm worried this will go overlooked by CCP in the vast depths of this thread, but I don't see any immediate problems with such a proposal. And yeah, CCP, drones still need an overhaul! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2578
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 07:24:00 -
[1996] - Quote
Great post, ExAstra!
Removing drone control range from sentries would do the trick.
Unfortunately it looks like CCP has already moved their attention to some other things from these threads, and expecting any drone fixes for Odyssey is... highly optimistic*. I'd settle for simpler fixes
+ more native drone control range + more drone bay
* drone UI needs a complete overhaul, drone signatures are way too big, mediums and heavies need a slight speed buff, broken mwd/orbit mechanism needs to be fixed, and finally sentries need their scoop range doubled
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
smokeydapot
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 07:56:00 -
[1997] - Quote
Jinde Usoko wrote:guess if you want to say that you can't think that the geddon is getting a bonus that's never been added to a BS and call it balance. neut range is something new for BS.
No you're right it's never been applied to a BS hull but guess what it's in line with the rest of the race being one of their E-war and at 1/4 of the curse's bonus I can live with that.
ExAstra wrote:And to be honest giving the Dominix an extra 25m3 of drone bay space just isn't enough (in my opinion) to restore some of the pain the Geddon just inflicted on it. (In that now that the Geddon has totally taken over the NuetDroner and the loss of high powered and bonused blasters is lowering the appeal of the close range DPS monster)
I totally agree but some extra space regarding drones on the dominix ( however small ) would still set it apart over the armageddon. |
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 07:56:00 -
[1998] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also.
-12% EFT DPS in the max damage full rack of neutrons that is compensated by vastly better damage application with drones, much more tank, more powergrid to fit more modules, more powerful guns...
Not sure how this is a major nerf. This makes the Domi much more flexible, and in most cases more powerful. |
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:35:00 -
[1999] - Quote
Jovat wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also. -12% EFT DPS in the max damage full rack of neutrons that is compensated by vastly better damage application with drones, much more tank, more powergrid to fit more modules, more powerful guns... Not sure how this is a major nerf. This makes the Domi much more flexible, and in most cases more powerful.
If anything the Domi is less flexible, the new mission build would be a rack full of shield transfer to the sentries while u afk. |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2299
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:38:00 -
[2000] - Quote
I have removed some personal attacks from this thread. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
|
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HazeInADaze
The Tuskers
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:16:00 -
[2001] - Quote
Hopefully future drone changes really help this weapon system, but as it stands I feel like the Geddon just came out of nowhere to be the drone boat of choice. Neutralizers have always been a great way for a drone boat to disable an enemy so the drones can apply damage. Without some changes to how drones operate (how they currently mwd sling shot around the target, getting very poor damage application, or how easy they are to kill) I think neutralizers will be a powerful aid in drone damage, more so than optimal and tracking.
|
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 12:32:00 -
[2002] - Quote
Jovat wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also. -12% EFT DPS in the max damage full rack of neutrons that is compensated by vastly better damage application with drones, much more tank, more powergrid to fit more modules, more powerful guns... Not sure how this is a major nerf. This makes the Domi much more flexible, and in most cases more powerful.
You're forgetting the other BS that are also getting bumped in the tiericide to the middle ground while having their layouts and ship bonus match their role as turret/brawl/tanky ships.
This means there is more competition and more choices for these roles than ever over the Domi, which in the mean time is having it's layout and bonus tied to the sentry mechanics which many pilots wouldn't to be caught dead with in PvP (sorry pun).
Sure, tracking will help larger drones hit smaller ships too... but a strength of the current live Domi was in it's ability to swap to smaller drones anyways. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 13:08:00 -
[2003] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:You're forgetting the other BS that are also getting bumped in the tiericide to the middle ground while having their layouts and ship bonus match their role as turret/brawl/tanky ships.
This means there is more competition and more choices for these roles than ever over the Domi, which in the mean time is having it's layout and bonus tied to the sentry mechanics which many pilots wouldn't to be caught dead with in PvP (sorry pun).
Sure, tracking will help larger drones hit smaller ships too... but a strength of the current live Domi was in it's ability to swap to smaller drones anyways. So, in fact, the complaints about the dominix come from the sentries ?
I think it's not a good idea to balance ship with the aim of working around a weapon system, but balance the weapon system instead ; dealing with the source of the problem instead of its effects.
If the dominix's problem is sentries, why not making the dominix a good sentry ship and fix the sentries instead of making the dominix good at something else and throwing sentries to the bin ? |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 14:04:00 -
[2004] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: So, in fact, the complaints about the dominix come from the sentries ?
I think it's not a good idea to balance ship with the aim of working around a weapon system, but balance the weapon system instead ; dealing with the source of the problem instead of its effects.
If the dominix's problem is sentries, why not making the dominix a good sentry ship and fix the sentries instead of making the dominix good at something else and throwing sentries to the bin ?
Well first off, if sentries need to be fixed for this boat to work.. then do that first and then throw out the idea of basing ships on it, otherwise backlash is to be expected.
If sentries will be changed soon (tm), then it's inappropriate for this balance pass to base a ship on it.
Second, putting the Domi... hailed by many as the most verstile ship in Eve, into the role of just sentry sniper is not great either.
Fine if it was too versatile, and the shield/blaster gank ship has to be taken out, and the neut domi has to be taken out.. well then at least strengthen it's role as premiere drone ship. Is it not the single most iconic drone ship in Eve?
But wait, now it's going to be relegated to be better with only a single drone type? In addition, arguably worse than other drone ships for anything outside of the sniper role? Frustrating.
This is why I think a bonus that gives the Dominix good usage of a variety of drone types is appropriate. You'll have to look back in the thread a bit if you want to see the good ideas people have come up with for this.
Yes, I know many people want try a novelty doctrine and will try a hull or two, but after that wears off, the practicality sets in and people move back to their more mobile and higher DPS snipers, what's left? Not a ship that people will sit in on a regular basis unless they want more AFK out of their missions. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
182
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 14:28:00 -
[2005] - Quote
So we've reached 100 pages in this thread, and unless I've missed it, I haven't seen any posts from Rise since he put in the second batch of changes after the howls of rage over the first ones. Is this really what we're going live with? |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
492
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 14:50:00 -
[2006] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:So we've reached 100 pages in this thread, and unless I've missed it, I haven't seen any posts from Rise since he put in the second batch of changes after the howls of rage over the first ones. Is this really what we're going live with? Now that the prospective change are live on duality they will show up and respond some more. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 14:53:00 -
[2007] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Well first off, if sentries need to be fixed for this boat to work.. then do that first and then throw out the idea of basing ships on it, otherwise backlash is to be expected.
If sentries will be changed soon (tm), then it's inappropriate for this balance pass to base a ship on it.
Second, putting the Domi... hailed by many as the most verstile ship in Eve, into the role of just sentry sniper is not great either.
Fine if it was too versatile, and the shield/blaster gank ship has to be taken out, and the neut domi has to be taken out.. well then at least strengthen it's role as premiere drone ship. Is it not the single most iconic drone ship in Eve?
But wait, now it's going to be relegated to be better with only a single drone type? In addition, arguably worse than other drone ships for anything outside of the sniper role? Frustrating.
This is why I think a bonus that gives the Dominix good usage of a variety of drone types is appropriate. You'll have to look back in the thread a bit if you want to see the good ideas people have come up with for this.
Yes, I know many people want try a novelty doctrine and will try a hull or two, but after that wears off, the practicality sets in and people move back to their more mobile and higher DPS snipers, what's left? Not a ship that people will sit in on a regular basis unless they want more AFK out of their missions. If any, changing the gun bonus into a drone bonus made the domi MORE versatile. Losing 10% of your dps when you relied on guns won't kill the dominix...
And range+tracking is actually useful for drones too, not only sentries.
This dominix rage puzzle me in fact : half of the dominix fits didn't use guns at all, and when they did, they didn't always use six guns. So in most cases, the hybrid damage bonus was half used or not even used at all. Ok, now the armageddon will make full neutralizer dominixes less attractive, but still, there is one mid slot difference between the two, and that can make a huge difference. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
723
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 14:57:00 -
[2008] - Quote
After 100 pages and some feedback taken in account so these new slots/bonus changes actually seem more reasonable there are still dudes comparing oranges with apples and bananas.
This is a T1 battleship revamp !!!
They will obviously at some point be equal or superior to T2/Navy/Pirate versions UNTIL THOSE ARE ALSO REVAMP !!
How hard is this to understand?-bring those version actual bonus/strengths/weaknesses to improve T1 versions is ok but not if it's for tears and moaning T1 BS will be better for a moment.
These comments mixing T2/pirate/navy ships with T1 rebalance are not only useless but also leading to many misunderstanding mistakes, just stop it, it's worthless. Keep you T2 Pirate Navy ship comments for the right moment and the right thread please. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 15:22:00 -
[2009] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: If any, changing the gun bonus into a drone bonus made the domi MORE versatile. Losing 10% of your dps when you relied on guns won't kill the dominix...
And range+tracking is actually useful for drones too, not only sentries.
This dominix rage puzzle me in fact : half of the dominix fits didn't use guns at all, and when they did, they didn't always use six guns. So in most cases, the hybrid damage bonus was half used or not even used at all. Ok, now the armageddon will make full neutralizer dominixes less attractive, but still, there is one mid slot difference between the two, and that can make a huge difference.
Range is useful to drones with a 1k optimal? And if you think flight-time is an issue with Ogres when DPSing BS sized ships, how do you think they will fare trying to catch the smaller ships that they can now track? |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 15:54:00 -
[2010] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Range is useful to drones with a 1k optimal (ie anything other than sentries)? And if you think flight-time is an issue with Ogres when DPSing BS sized ships, how do you think they will fare trying to catch the smaller ships that they can now track? This is of course assuming you don't simply switch to smaller drones which you could always do anyway. Maybe use your mid slots to actually catch your target ? |
|
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 16:01:00 -
[2011] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote:Range is useful to drones with a 1k optimal (ie anything other than sentries)? And if you think flight-time is an issue with Ogres when DPSing BS sized ships, how do you think they will fare trying to catch the smaller ships that they can now track? This is of course assuming you don't simply switch to smaller drones which you could always do anyway. Maybe use your mid slots to actually catch your target ?
So you want a BS to tackle the frigs and cruisers? Assuming that mistake does happen, can we not fit tackle now? Can we not use lighter drones now? |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 16:13:00 -
[2012] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:So you want a BS to tackle the frigs and cruisers? Assuming that mistake does happen, can we not fit tackle now? Can we not use lighter drones now? Man, you can do whatever you want : that's versatility in fact. You are asking me how can heavy drones actually hit smaller targets, and I answered you : you may tackle a cruiser and release your heavy drones, or someone else can do it, and you can use either sentries or heavies ; if the heavies aren't fast enough, drone nav computers may boost their speed to acceptable levels.
As for the range on drones, it helps them hitting their target sooner as they start shooting before their optimale 1000m range. Also, most drones orbit farther than they can track their target in fact, the tracking bonus will help there too. That's not so visible for heavies shooting at BS, but any other case, that's actually useful. |
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 16:30:00 -
[2013] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Second, putting the Domi... hailed by many as the most verstile ship in Eve, into the role of just sentry sniper is not great either.
Fine if it was too versatile, and the shield/blaster gank ship has to be taken out, and the neut domi has to be taken out.. well then at least strengthen it's role as premiere drone ship. Is it not the single most iconic drone ship in Eve?
But wait, now it's going to be relegated to be better with only a single drone type? In addition, arguably worse than other drone ships for anything outside of the sniper role? Frustrating.
Tracking helps all drone types, just sentry drones most. The changes makes the Dominix more versatile, not less, because not only do drones get better damage application, but tank and fitting is improved. You won't know what to expect with a Domi except drones.
They'll be better as RR, pulse, autocannon. Close range neut will still be viable, though the Armageddon has a more carved out role for that, while the Domi will have better damage application.
The only fit that is possibly worse off is the neutron blaster domi, with 12% less DPS, which plausibly is made up for it better drone damage application, and certainly is compensated for in better tank and fitting.
I do think the drone bay should be 400 so you could have 3 flights of large drones and a flight of small drones (and 425 on domi navy for two flights of smalls.) Yeah, I'd like it if there were a bunch of other bonuses on the hull, but then the hull bonuses start to look a little crowded. |
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 16:34:00 -
[2014] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
As you progress from cruiser to battleship, there is a significant gain in theoretical maximum DPS for all weapons beside drones. Drone damage is the same for Ishtar and Dominix, and their only DPS difference lies in un/bonus hybrid weapon. To bring drone in line with other weapon system, "+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints " could change to an ability to fit 1 drone control unit per level for battleship. DPS for drone battleship would raise form the current 7.5 sentry to 10 sentry drone. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 16:54:00 -
[2015] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Actually I would like to take a minute to address drones and the new Dominix.
As it seems right now we're getting the new bonus of: +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
This MOSTLY affects Sentry drones. You can pretend it doesn't affect the other drones, but it does. It lets Mediums hit frigates better and Heavies hit cruisers harder (and more consistently in both cases). Grab a friend with a frigate and cruiser on SiSi and test the drone's performance with a Dominix equipped with dual OTLs and without. The difference isn't mind boggling but it's there, and it allows the Dominix more consistently applied DPS.
But anyway, it MOSTLY affects Sentry drones, like everyone in this thread already knows. So what's the problem with that? Well, to a certain extent, none. Sentry drones are awesome and giving them a range/tracking bonus really WOULD help set the Dominix apart from the Armageddon. I say would because BY ITSELF it isn't enough. So something needs to change.
One of the biggest problems is Drone Control Range. From a gameplay and lore perspective drone control range makes sense. But for SENTRY drones it doesn't. The idea behind Drone Control Range is that you have a limited space within which to stream information and commands to your drones. So, I ask, WHY does this apply to Sentry Drones? They're (normally) sitting right next to you the whole time. If I can lock a target 120+km out (with SeBos that will be equipped instead of OTLs with this rebalance) my beautifully optimally buffed Bouncer IIs SHOULD be able to start sniping it. And I shouldn't have to have my high slots filled with heavy CPU stealing Drone Link Augmentor IIs. There is no sense to the Drone Control Range hindering sentries in that sense. Instead, the Drone Control Range should come into effect for your distance from the drones, not (necessarily) the target. I say necessarily because in the case of Attack/Scout drones, where they will have to move TO said target, target distance stops being a non-issue and the drones shouldn't be able to comply.
I personally see no reason why, if I'm 59km from my Warden IIs, and my target is another 100km away from me, why I can't stream that targeting information to the Sentry drones and have them engage my target. I DO see why I shouldn't be able to sick a flight of 10km/s (DNC boosted) Warrior IIs on them. If there is a serious gameplay balance issue with this, please enlighten me because I personally don't see it.
So yeah, I think that change alone could really help the Dominix stand out from the Armageddon, at least as a drone sniper. This problem does nothing to solve that sentries can't move/etc. and that still needs to be addressed. In fact it all needs to be addressed in my opinion. I think that such a simple change would actually be more beneficial than a drone control range ship bonus as it leaves the Dominix's attack drones regulated to the 60km maximum, but the sentry drones become far more viable in comparison, but all drones for the ship are still getting a nice little buff.
I'm worried this will go overlooked by CCP in the vast depths of this thread, but I don't see any immediate problems with such a proposal. And yeah, CCP, drones still need an overhaul! I don't know. How does a sentry sniping Dominix compare in damage to other snipers? Would it really be fair to let them keep all their high slots for close range damage or whatever as well as sniping capability?
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 17:13:00 -
[2016] - Quote
mm.. i think the domi should lose a couple of turret slots like the other droneboats without a hybrid damage bonus i.e. navy vexor.
Sentry drones should be able to target a ship irrelevant of what the domi's range limitations are afterall its the drones doing the shooting and the sentries sitting next to the ship should not require drone control range to be the same as the ships lock range 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 17:14:00 -
[2017] - Quote
Higgs Maken wrote:As you progress from cruiser to battleship, there is a significant gain in theoretical maximum DPS for all weapons beside drones. Drone damage is the same for Ishtar and Dominix, and their only DPS difference lies in un/bonus hybrid weapon. To bring drone in line with other weapon system, "+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints " could change to an ability to fit 1 drone control unit per level for battleship. DPS for drone battleship would raise form the current 7.5 sentry to 10 sentry drone.
Not appropriate. Look at the cost of a drone control unit, and also realize your drone HP is now 50% lower, while eating up all your high slots. Better to just ask for 15% per level.
Anyways, comparison isn't right. Ishtar is a T2 HAC, Domi is T1 battleship. |
KiithSoban
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 17:38:00 -
[2018] - Quote
edit: recalled |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
910
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 18:11:00 -
[2019] - Quote
Ok, I tried out a New Dominix of the Duality Test Server [High Slots] 350mm Railgun II (Iridium Charge L) {74Km Optimal} x6 Drone Link Augmentor II x1 [Mid Slots] Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II (Optimum Range) Sensor Booster II (Scan Resolution) Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range) Drone Navigation Computer II [Low Slots] Large Ancillary Armor Repairer (Nanite Repair Paste) Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II x2 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II x2 Drone Damage Amplifier II [Rigs] Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I x2 EHP 84K DPS 638.8 @ 74K [Drone Bay] Curator II x5 Ogre II x5 Hobgoblin x5 Medium Armor Maintaince Bot II x5 (Personal Reasons) EC-300 x5 Salvage Drone I x5 (PvE)
Soloed a Serpintes Hub and a Serpentis Sanctum, performed well. Some thoughts, could use more drone bay still, I could have used a mid range drone and had none. 50~75m3 would work well. Overall it can work as is but a control range bonus would do wonders as would some extra drone bay. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Ju0ZaS
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 18:35:00 -
[2020] - Quote
How about giving the domi a special ability next to the new bonuses - 99% less powergrid use for drone control units and giving it a 250 bandtidth. Also make the control unit cheaper to produce so you wouldn't turn a ship with 10 drones 5 times more expensive. This would cause the Domi pilots to give up some high slots for extra drones and leave them with one extra slot for a neut or something. I think this would be the most balanced way of giving the Domi 10 drones. Also, extra drone bay space would be nice. |
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 19:28:00 -
[2021] - Quote
Oh my god I hate this forum it just ate my post again. Hold on. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 19:38:00 -
[2022] - Quote
Ju0ZaS wrote:How about giving the domi a special ability next to the new bonuses - 99% less powergrid use for drone control units and giving it a 250 bandtidth. Also make the control unit cheaper to produce so you wouldn't turn a ship with 10 drones 5 times more expensive. This would cause the Domi pilots to give up some high slots for extra drones and leave them with one extra slot for a neut or something. I think this would be the most balanced way of giving the Domi 10 drones. Also, extra drone bay space would be nice. The problem with this is that, as a carrier module, the DCU is stupidly expensive to be fitting to a T1 battleship. Extra drones is a worthy suggestion, but it would have to be either a ship ability (not requiring modules) or tied to a more feasible module, like Drone Link Augmentors or something instead of actual DCUs. (So that you'd still have to give up high slots.) |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 19:58:00 -
[2023] - Quote
Jovat wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also. -12% EFT DPS in the max damage full rack of neutrons that is compensated by vastly better damage application with drones, much more tank, more powergrid to fit more modules, more powerful guns... Not sure how this is a major nerf. This makes the Domi much more flexible, and in most cases more powerful.
12% damage is a significant nerf to me. What is a major nerf to you 20%? Yes this will help Sentries but really does nothing much for other drones. Sell it anyway you want but these Domi changes are flat out nerfs. I hope they change or they at least don't touch the Navy Domi which will still be solid. |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 21:47:00 -
[2024] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:So, in fact, the complaints about the dominix come from the sentries ?
I think it's not a good idea to balance ship with the aim of working around a weapon system, but balance the weapon system instead ; dealing with the source of the problem instead of its effects.
If the dominix's problem is sentries, why not making the dominix a good sentry ship and fix the sentries instead of making the dominix good at something else and throwing sentries to the bin ?
Sentries are long-range. They prevent the deploying ship from moving.
Please tell me how you will "fix" that, because both of these things are part of the basic definition of what sentry drones are.
Current Domi is fine. Most of us who actually fly it don't understand why is it getting nerfed.
|
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 23:10:00 -
[2025] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:Jovat wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also. -12% EFT DPS in the max damage full rack of neutrons that is compensated by vastly better damage application with drones, much more tank, more powergrid to fit more modules, more powerful guns... Not sure how this is a major nerf. This makes the Domi much more flexible, and in most cases more powerful. 12% damage is a significant nerf to me. What is a major nerf to you 20%? Yes this will help Sentries but really does nothing much for other drones. Sell it anyway you want but these Domi changes are flat out nerfs. I hope they change or they at least don't touch the Navy Domi which will still be solid.
12% in the most affected fit, the brawler gank domi. Most fits its less than 5%, and most fits use sentries.
And tracking does help other drones, sometimes significantly, in their damage application. |
Castor Narcissus
Catarse
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 00:06:00 -
[2026] - Quote
Just wanted to suggest, if Apoc is getting a high slot bonus in Energy Neut/Vamp role, domi could get something in remote repair area, it would add something different that could stand aside at the Scorpion and new Apoc. |
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 00:38:00 -
[2027] - Quote
The more I think of it, I wouldn't be opposed to it getting a RR bonus.. Why ? Cause Armor is the bastard shield in Eve, I think giving it one unique ship like BS Logi should make it a more interesting option.
That said, I still prefer my idea of an extra drone a level, or of being able to fit Drone Control Units.. Cause then I might actually use it lol. |
Psychoactive Stimulant
TinklePee
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 03:57:00 -
[2028] - Quote
So, why would anyone use a dominix after this change? I see no reason to.
Remove all turret hardpoints and allow the use of one more drone. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 05:31:00 -
[2029] - Quote
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:Gallente is all about drone SUPERIORITY. There really isn't much here to suggest that the Dominix is superior to the Armageddon.
Drone optimal without lock range. Tracking bonus. These affect really only affect half the racial sentries at a time. Gardes like the optimal, Wardens like the tracking etc. But without a damage bonus buff, there's really nothing that makes me choose Gallente over Amarr other than previously allocated skillpoints. I have to agree with these points. The tiercide has effectively removed Gallente's racial flavor of being the Drone masters. Now it's more like "Well the Gallente can field more drones" "Yeah, but we Amarr can store way more kekekeke".
Since when does that hold true to the initial design concepts? Originally the Amarr had a SINGLE ship that was somewhat comparable to a Gallente drone boat. The Arbitrator (in fact, Carriers aside, this was the only ship besides the Typhoon that ever came close to our territory in the realm of drone boating). Now they have the Dragoon (-10/+15 over Algos), Arbitrator (-25/+25 over Thorax), Prophecy (-25/+25 over Myrmidon), AND the Armageddon (-0/+0 over Dominix).
So, the Amarr don't have as high of an ability to push out mixed sized drones as Gallente ships until the Battleship level, where they're COMPLETELY equal. And to be fair, the Algos has the mixed bonuses CCP is going around trying to kill. The only reason to use an Algos over a Dragoon other than Dragoons look stupid as hell and Algos are almost the best looking hull in the game, is that the Algos is capable of higher on-paper DPS with 2 mediums and 2 lights fielded, instead of the typical full light flight. But it can't even store two flights of this. The Dragoon gets to store 3 flights of its drones.
It's not that we're just "upset" that now the Dominix has a "younger brother" now. It's just the uniqueness of not only the ship, but half of the Gallente races ships are just being thrown out the window. When I started this game I invested heavily into drones. I loved Gallente, and drones were our unique strength. Now I feel like I'm just a guy who was unfortunate enough to train Gallente Battleship V instead of Amarr Battleship V. As it stands the Dominix is NOT different enough from the Armageddon to make me happy. That DOESN'T mean I necessarily view the change as a nerf, I just find it NOWHERE near as attractive as what they just did to the Geddon. |
Funky Lazers
shin-ra ltd
248
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 06:32:00 -
[2030] - Quote
Whatever. But for me Domi will be the best Drone boat. Why? Because it has 1 more med compared to Armageddon. 1 med is a lot, you can fit some sensor booster or whatever you like.
I only hope they bring back Hyper's gun dps back. Whatever. |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2585
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 07:02:00 -
[2031] - Quote
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote: Sentries are long-range. They prevent the deploying ship from moving.
Please tell me how you will "fix" that, because both of these things are part of the basic definition of what sentry drones are.
Current Domi is fine. Most of us who actually fly it don't understand why is it getting nerfed.
Gardes track better than most close range turrets. They just happen to have 56-68km optimal :)
No, they do not prevent your ship from moving. You can be as far as you want from drones, as long as you are on grid. Some year ago CCP added the option to reconnect to you drones on grid, and this enables a lot of neat tricks utilizing multiple sets of drones.
I was originally against this Odyssey version, until I realized that nobody really uses those large guns on Domis. Mine are fitted RR or neuts, so it was always a wasted bonus. I do have a very ganky Navy Domi, and it would be cool to keep the turret bonus on it, but tbh there isn't much real-world PVP use for the turret bonus on Domis.
Still, there is room for some improvement in the drone department- more native control range, and drone bay would make it work better in the intended role as pocket-size sentry carrier.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2269
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 08:29:00 -
[2032] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Since when does that hold true to the initial design concepts? Originally the Amarr had a SINGLE ship that was somewhat comparable to a Gallente drone boat. The Arbitrator (in fact, Carriers aside, this was the only ship besides the Typhoon that ever came close to our territory in the realm of drone boating). Now they have the Dragoon (-10/+15 over Algos), Arbitrator (-25/+25 over Vexor), Prophecy (-25/+25 over Myrmidon), AND the Armageddon (-0/+0 over Dominix).
So, the Amarr don't have as high of an ability to push out mixed sized drones as Gallente ships until the Battleship level, where they're COMPLETELY equal. And to be fair, the Algos has the mixed bonuses CCP is going around trying to kill. The only reason to use an Algos over a Dragoon other than Dragoons look stupid as hell and Algos are almost the best looking hull in the game, is that the Algos is capable of higher on-paper DPS with 2 mediums and 2 lights fielded, instead of the typical full light flight. But it can't even store two flights of this. The Dragoon gets to store 3 flights of its drones. I agree with your first statement. The fact that the Dominix and Armageddon have the same functionally while the latter possesses more flexibility pisses me off. In my opinion, the relationship between the Dominix and Armageddon should be similar to that of the Algos and Dragoon... which brings me to your second statement...
The Algos is, hands down, one of the best destroyers out there. That 10 m/bit advantage the Algos has over the Dragoon DOES, in fact, set the two far enough apart to be distinct. It can launch 2 mediums and 3 lights and has enough drone bay for one spare flight of lights. The Dragoon can't match the Algos' 300 to 400 dps but has that extra flexibility the Algos lacks... including spare drone bay.
What should be done to keep the two ships distinct from each other...
- drop 25 m/bit from the Armageddon. This makes it consistent with the drone bandwidth increase through the Amarr classes in relation to the Gallente drone line (Tormenter, 15 m/bit... Dragoon, 25 m/bit... Arbitrator, 50 m/bit... Prophecy, 75 m/bit). In compensation, add another 75 to 100 m3 to the 'Geddon's drone bay.
- give the Dominix a slight bump in its drone damage bonus. Even adding an extra 2 or 3% will distinguish it against the Armageddon which, again, can functionally do the same thing. You can drop a turret if that helps to balance things.
Really... almost anything to distinguish the two more than they are right now will do. Because I'm having a hard time seeing why I should choose a Dominix over an Armageddon (yes... the Domi has an extra mid slot and has drones that can track better... but the Geddon has an extra high slot, can choose to utilize any weapon system in the game, and can neut better than Dominix ever could).
Roime wrote:No, they do not prevent your ship from moving. You can be as far as you want from drones, as long as you are on grid. Some year ago CCP added the option to reconnect to you drones on grid, and this enables a lot of neat tricks utilizing multiple sets of drones. Actually, yes... it does. Deploying sentries in a class of ships not known for being mobile basically means losing your drones unless you are in close quarters combat. Drones are simply not expendable on a ship that relies on them to deal most of its damage. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Rysis Vyvorant
Engineering Evolutions Limited S2N Citizens
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 08:59:00 -
[2033] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:ExAstra wrote:Since when does that hold true to the initial design concepts? Originally the Amarr had a SINGLE ship that was somewhat comparable to a Gallente drone boat. The Arbitrator (in fact, Carriers aside, this was the only ship besides the Typhoon that ever came close to our territory in the realm of drone boating). Now they have the Dragoon (-10/+15 over Algos), Arbitrator (-25/+25 over Vexor), Prophecy (-25/+25 over Myrmidon), AND the Armageddon (-0/+0 over Dominix).
So, the Amarr don't have as high of an ability to push out mixed sized drones as Gallente ships until the Battleship level, where they're COMPLETELY equal. And to be fair, the Algos has the mixed bonuses CCP is going around trying to kill. The only reason to use an Algos over a Dragoon other than Dragoons look stupid as hell and Algos are almost the best looking hull in the game, is that the Algos is capable of higher on-paper DPS with 2 mediums and 2 lights fielded, instead of the typical full light flight. But it can't even store two flights of this. The Dragoon gets to store 3 flights of its drones. I agree with your first statement. The fact that the Dominix and Armageddon have the same functionally while the latter possesses more flexibility pisses me off. In my opinion, the relationship between the Dominix and Armageddon should be similar to that of the Algos and Dragoon... which brings me to your second statement... The Algos is, hands down, one of the best destroyers out there. That 10 m/bit advantage the Algos has over the Dragoon DOES, in fact, set the two far enough apart to be distinct. It can launch 2 mediums and 3 lights and has enough drone bay for one spare flight of lights. The Dragoon can't match the Algos' 300 to 400 dps but has that extra flexibility the Algos lacks... including spare drone bay. What should be done to keep the two ships distinct from each other... - drop 25 m/bit from the Armageddon. This makes it consistent with the drone bandwidth increase through the Amarr classes in relation to the Gallente drone line (Tormenter, 15 m/bit... Dragoon, 25 m/bit... Arbitrator, 50 m/bit... Prophecy, 75 m/bit). In compensation, add another 75 to 100 m3 to the 'Geddon's drone bay. - give the Dominix a slight bump in its drone damage bonus. Even adding an extra 2 or 3% will distinguish it against the Armageddon which, again, can functionally do the same thing. You can drop a turret if that helps to balance things. Really... almost anything to distinguish the two more than they are right now will do. Because I'm having a hard time seeing why I should choose a Dominix over an Armageddon (yes... the Domi has an extra mid slot and has drones that can track better... but the Geddon has an extra high slot, can choose to utilize any weapon system in the game, and can neut better than Dominix ever could). Roime wrote:No, they do not prevent your ship from moving. You can be as far as you want from drones, as long as you are on grid. Some year ago CCP added the option to reconnect to you drones on grid, and this enables a lot of neat tricks utilizing multiple sets of drones. Actually, yes... it does. Deploying sentries in a class of ships not known for being mobile basically means losing your drones unless you are in close quarters combat. Drones are simply not expendable on a ship that relies on them to deal most of its damage.
I am just quoting this because it is so good. Well done! |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 09:06:00 -
[2034] - Quote
Post-duality testing
I think it's basically there, the Megathron, Dominix and Hyperion are looking superb and distinctive in their own ways.
My one point is Drone bays, as this [Drones] is still primarily the Gallente 'thing' and could be looked at.
- now that the Dominix is getting 'turrets' it can lose/have blown out of the stars, it needs more spares - 500m3 drone bay would allow enough spares to warrant usage while moving around on grid*
- The Megathron 75m3 bandwidth is fine, but I feel it should still get the 125m3 bay (as per the Kronos) to give a little bit of compensation for the loss of the utility high.
Otherwise, looking really good.
* Just on the note of possible options for future drone mechanics, years and years ago you used to be able to load drones from the cargohold to the bay, I was never quite sure why you guys removed this feature. This would alleviate drone loss issues as your logistics chain (not the ship...) would be able to bring up replacements just as you would ammo/cap charges, fuel e.t.c.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2270
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 09:14:00 -
[2035] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:- The Megathron 75m3 bandwidth is fine, but I feel it should still get the 125m3 bay (as per the Kronos) to give a little bit of compensation for the loss of the utility high. I don't mean to nitpick... but the Kronos only has 75 m/bit of drone bandwidth. You're thinking of the Vindicator.
Mybad... didn't read carefully enough. Ignore me. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
166
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 09:38:00 -
[2036] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Post-duality testing
I think it's basically there, the Megathron, Dominix and Hyperion are looking^ superb and distinctive in their own ways.
My one point is Drone bays, as this [Drones] is still primarily the Gallente 'thing' and could be looked at.
- now that the Dominix is getting 'turrets' it can lose/have blown out of the stars, it needs more spares - 500m3 drone bay would allow enough spares to warrant usage while moving around on grid*
- The Megathron 75m3 bandwidth is fine, but I feel it should still get the 125m3 bay (as per the Kronos) to give a little bit of compensation for the loss of the utility high.
Otherwise, looking really good.
^ 'looking' but not meant literally for two of them - the Dominix needs to get some sexy treatment, for far too long it's been an ugly potato. Also, the Hyperion looks like a right donkey now with the turret hardpoints and needs some minor redesign.
* Just on the note of possible options for future drone mechanics, years and years ago you used to be able to load drones from the cargohold to the bay, I was never quite sure why you guys removed this feature. This would alleviate drone loss issues as your logistics chain (not the ship...) would be able to bring up replacements just as you would ammo/cap charges, fuel e.t.c.
Funny how peopel want EVERYTHGInfor their boats. You think mega deserves 125M bay? So How in hellt hat is balanced comapred to the other attack boats? For god's sakke. the mega is even faster then the Tempest attack MINMATAR ship.
Afff
|
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 09:43:00 -
[2037] - Quote
The Minmatar thread is ----> that way
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 10:11:00 -
[2038] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: I agree with your first statement. The fact that the Dominix and Armageddon have the same functionally while the latter possesses more flexibility pisses me off. In my opinion, the relationship between the Dominix and Armageddon should be similar to that of the Algos and Dragoon... which brings me to your second statement...
The Algos is, hands down, one of the best destroyers out there. That 10 m/bit advantage the Algos has over the Dragoon DOES, in fact, set the two far enough apart to be distinct. It can launch 2 mediums and 3 lights and has enough drone bay for one spare flight of lights. The Dragoon can't match the Algos' 300 to 400 dps but has that extra flexibility the Algos lacks... including spare drone bay.
What should be done to keep the two ships distinct from each other...
- drop 25 m/bit from the Armageddon. This makes it consistent with the drone bandwidth increase through the Amarr classes in relation to the Gallente drone line (Tormenter, 15 m/bit... Dragoon, 25 m/bit... Arbitrator, 50 m/bit... Prophecy, 75 m/bit). In compensation, add another 75 to 100 m3 to the 'Geddon's drone bay.
- give the Dominix a slight bump in its drone damage bonus. Even adding an extra 2 or 3% will distinguish it against the Armageddon which, again, can functionally do the same thing. You can drop a turret if that helps to balance things.
Really... almost anything to distinguish the two more than they are right now will do. Because I'm having a hard time seeing why I should choose a Dominix over an Armageddon (yes... the Domi has an extra mid slot and has drones that can track better... but the Geddon has an extra high slot, can choose to utilize any weapon system in the game, and can neut better than Dominix ever could).
I agree that the Algos' DPS is quite a bit higher, and the Dragoon could never match it. My issue is more with the fact that suddenly it seems like Amarr get everything. They get lasers, they get missiles, and now they're taking drones. And Roden Shipyards doesn't count, those ships get like 1 or 2 launchers and then wastes bonuses on them PLUS Hybrids (I'm looking at you, Eris... Lachesis...though I'm sure T2 rebalance will wind up remedying this). The Dragoon doesn't go with the whole dual weapon bonus either, as it sticks to the neuts and nos where Algos goes for Hybrids. My biggest problem is with the Armageddon and the Dominix. (not as much the Algos/Dragoon as I made it seem)
When I first saw the Armageddon I didn't think "oh man they just killed the Dominix". I thought "Holy crap, this is freaking awesome. I can't wait to see what they did to the Dominix!" Because the Dominix always has been, and always (should) will be the most iconic drone ship in the game. And when I got to this thread, I found.. this. Making it a drone focused boat is fine. GREAT even. I approve. But SOMETHING has to be done to further it, like you said. Drones need overhauled in general but I don't think the sentry-focused bonus does the Dominix justice. I think most can agree. While it does help all of the Dominix's drones it mostly helps sentries and it's undeniable. Not even that bad really. It's just not enough. And as far as I'm concerned, I'd be okay if the Dominix lost all its turrets. Well, except for managing aggro in missions, haha. But yes, even if I'm not exactly making it sound like it, I do agree with you and what you are saying.
ShahFluffers wrote:Roime wrote:No, they do not prevent your ship from moving. You can be as far as you want from drones, as long as you are on grid. Some year ago CCP added the option to reconnect to you drones on grid, and this enables a lot of neat tricks utilizing multiple sets of drones. Actually, yes... it does. Deploying sentries in a class of ships not known for being mobile basically means losing your drones unless you are in close quarters combat. Drones are simply not expendable on a ship that relies on them to deal most of its damage. +1 To that. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 10:50:00 -
[2039] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Post-duality testing
I think it's basically there, the Megathron, Dominix and Hyperion are looking^ superb and distinctive in their own ways.
My one point is Drone bays, as this [Drones] is still primarily the Gallente 'thing' and could be looked at.
- now that the Dominix is getting 'turrets' it can lose/have blown out of the stars, it needs more spares - 500m3 drone bay would allow enough spares to warrant usage while moving around on grid*
- The Megathron 75m3 bandwidth is fine, but I feel it should still get the 125m3 bay (as per the Kronos) to give a little bit of compensation for the loss of the utility high.
Otherwise, looking really good.
^ 'looking' but not meant literally for two of them - the Dominix needs to get some sexy treatment, for far too long it's been an ugly potato. Also, the Hyperion looks like a right donkey now with the turret hardpoints and needs some minor redesign.
* Just on the note of possible options for future drone mechanics, years and years ago you used to be able to load drones from the cargohold to the bay, I was never quite sure why you guys removed this feature. This would alleviate drone loss issues as your logistics chain (not the ship...) would be able to bring up replacements just as you would ammo/cap charges, fuel e.t.c. Funny how peopel want EVERYTHGInfor their boats. You think mega deserves 125M bay? So How in hellt hat is balanced comapred to the other attack boats? For god's sakke. the mega is even faster then the Tempest attack MINMATAR ship. Afff
by the time you have plated the mega its as slow as any caldari ship where the is balance in that.... it should be a 7-6-6 setup with 6 turrets give it a stronger damage bonus like the Hyperion has. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 10:54:00 -
[2040] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:by the time you have plated the mega its as slow as any caldari ship where the balance in that.... it should be a 7-6-6 setup with 6 turrets give it a stronger damage bonus like the Hyperion has. Hold on, I'm throwing up a little because of your suggestion. You want to make it 7/6/6 with 6 turrets? Why don't we just give you what you really want and make it 7/7/5 so you can have your wtfshield Mega?
Or, how about "No."? While yes the Megathron is lacking in speed to be the attack battleship, just swap the roles of the Hyperion and Megathron around and the problem is solved. The Megathron suddenly cares a lot less about its speed and the Hyperion does the job like a raging bull. The Hyperion looks the part of an attack battleship better, too. Look at those freakin' thrusters. |
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 10:58:00 -
[2041] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:by the time you have plated the mega its as slow as any caldari ship where the balance in that.... it should be a 7-6-6 setup with 6 turrets give it a stronger damage bonus like the Hyperion has. Hold on, I'm throwing up a little because of your suggestion. You want to make it 7/6/6 with 6 turrets? Why don't we just give you what you really want and make it 7/7/5 so you can have your wtfshield Mega? Or, how about "No."? While yes the Megathron is lacking in speed to be the attack battleship, just swap the roles of the Hyperion and Megathron around and the problem is solved. The Megathron suddenly cares a lot less about its speed and the Hyperion does the job like a raging bull. The Hyperion looks the part of an attack battleship better, too. Look at those freakin' thrusters.
Point being unless it is shield tank in some form it is never really an attack battleship as when plated it becomes an combat battleship which is too slow to get into range with its tiny gun range. The first iteration worked . 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:01:00 -
[2042] - Quote
Jovat wrote:
12% in the most affected fit, the brawler gank domi. Most fits its less than 5%, and most fits use sentries.
And tracking does help other drones, sometimes significantly, in their damage application.
MOST fits use sentries? MOST? Really?
If you are running missions, maybe.* I use the Domi a lot, I don't run missions, and I don't even have the sentry skill trained to V on my 75 mil SP Domi alt. Yes, they are that useless to a Gallente PvP pilot in lowsec.
I agree with your point regarding damage application. However, as the optimal for small, med or heavy drones is very small, and tracking is never, ever the problem by definition (they orbit at optimal speed, or kite/chase), it is mostly sentries that benefit from the change.
A true Gallente pilot specializes in in-your-face, overwhelming damage. This is really all Gallente are good for. The new Domi goes against it all, and receives a completely undeserved nerf...
*My private opinion is that if you are using a sentry Domi for missions, you are doing it wrong. But than what do I know about missions. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:04:00 -
[2043] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:by the time you have plated the mega its as slow as any caldari ship where the balance in that.... it should be a 7-6-6 setup with 6 turrets give it a stronger damage bonus like the Hyperion has. Hold on, I'm throwing up a little because of your suggestion. You want to make it 7/6/6 with 6 turrets? Why don't we just give you what you really want and make it 7/7/5 so you can have your wtfshield Mega? Or, how about "No."? While yes the Megathron is lacking in speed to be the attack battleship, just swap the roles of the Hyperion and Megathron around and the problem is solved. The Megathron suddenly cares a lot less about its speed and the Hyperion does the job like a raging bull. The Hyperion looks the part of an attack battleship better, too. Look at those freakin' thrusters. Point being unless it is shield tank in some form it is never really an attack battleship as when plated it becomes an combat battleship which is too slow to get into range with its tiny gun range. The first iteration worked . The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:17:00 -
[2044] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:by the time you have plated the mega its as slow as any caldari ship where the balance in that.... it should be a 7-6-6 setup with 6 turrets give it a stronger damage bonus like the Hyperion has. Hold on, I'm throwing up a little because of your suggestion. You want to make it 7/6/6 with 6 turrets? Why don't we just give you what you really want and make it 7/7/5 so you can have your wtfshield Mega? Or, how about "No."? While yes the Megathron is lacking in speed to be the attack battleship, just swap the roles of the Hyperion and Megathron around and the problem is solved. The Megathron suddenly cares a lot less about its speed and the Hyperion does the job like a raging bull. The Hyperion looks the part of an attack battleship better, too. Look at those freakin' thrusters. Point being unless it is shield tank in some form it is never really an attack battleship as when plated it becomes an combat battleship which is too slow to get into range with its tiny gun range. The first iteration worked . The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage. Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...
you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago.
'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:27:00 -
[2045] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote: The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage.
Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...
you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago. "Listen better"? This is a forum. We read here. All you said was "the first iteration worked" which I (apparently) misinterpreted to mean the original design. "Proposal" would have been a much better choice of vocabulary.
So how do you think the first balance proposal was better? Because it was "more likely to be shield tanked"? |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
346
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:29:00 -
[2046] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted. According to my second look, you seem to have completely ignored the feedback on the Domi, since nothing has changed from your original post. Very disappointing.
CCP Rise wrote:We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too! Absolutely, nope. You don't need to change a ship that happens to be one of the few which is working fine, just as it is now.
Please replace the original hybrid bonus and remove the less useful drone range/tracking bonus. Thank you. |
Andy Landen
Air Initiative Mercenaries
117
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:42:00 -
[2047] - Quote
Love the new Dominix! It makes sense to focus on drones. Have you guys also considered a drone range control bonus for it? It makes sense and the Ishtar has it. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:45:00 -
[2048] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Love the new Dominix! It makes sense to focus on drones. Have you guys also considered a drone range control bonus for it? It makes sense and the Ishtar has it. +1 for supporting the Dominix focusing on drones (the hybrid bonus lovers are a bit annoying), not so much for you liking it as is. Haha.
As for your suggestion about Drone Control Range Bonus, the Ishtar's only applies to Combat/Attack drones, and this new Dominix is focusing "more" on sentries. An overall Control Range bonus would certainly be welcomed with open arms, though. |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 12:30:00 -
[2049] - Quote
FU leave the domi alone !!! I had a reason to fit hybrids, now all you'll ever see is domis with projectiles.
Also usuck, and don't fix stuff that ain't broken |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 12:47:00 -
[2050] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:FU leave the domi alone !!! I had a reason to fit hybrids, now all you'll ever see is domis with projectiles.n CCP can do nothing for the people who prefer to fit AC despite the ample fitting to fit blasters. Blasters still do insanely more damage than AC, even unbonused. Hell ! Even pulses do a lot more damage than AC ! |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
910
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 13:30:00 -
[2051] - Quote
My personal experiences with the changes to the Dominix were pleasant. I did feel it needed more control range and a bigger drone bay. As far as the damage went, it was good damage at many different ranges, with only a problem area between 20~40Km. I was using 350mm Railgun II and Curator II Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2588
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 14:04:00 -
[2052] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Roime wrote:No, they do not prevent your ship from moving. You can be as far as you want from drones, as long as you are on grid. Some year ago CCP added the option to reconnect to you drones on grid, and this enables a lot of neat tricks utilizing multiple sets of drones. Actually, yes... it does. Deploying sentries in a class of ships not known for being mobile basically means losing your drones unless you are in close quarters combat. Drones are simply not expendable on a ship that relies on them to deal most of its damage.
No, they don't prevent you from moving. You have multiple sets, and you can use your drones even if you are not sitting next to them. Yes, I think that sentry scoop range should be doubled, drone signatures reduced, T2 drones given T2 resists and some drone bay added to Domi, but sentries being stationary is not such a disadvantage as people make it to be.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Castor Narcissus
Catarse
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 14:07:00 -
[2053] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:FU leave the domi alone !!! I had a reason to fit hybrids, now all you'll ever see is domis with projectiles.
Also usuck, and don't fix stuff that ain't broken
The Dominix while ain't broken at the current state, it will be overshadowed with the new changes to Battleships, more specifically the Apocalypse.
The loss of Hybrid damage boost will only cripple the already low blaster/railgun damage in trade of something new.
The problem is while the Apoc gets a new role in PvP scenarios as a extremely useful energy neut ship with its dps focused on drones, the dominix will get a good bonus to tracking and optimal range leaving some mid slots open that would be fitted with omnidirectional links, but that's it, a buff to a single role of the dominix, the sentry sniper.
Either CCP Rise takes a look at something refreshing, already stated before me in this thread, either Remote Repair, access to Drone control units or something else, or add more utility to heavy drones, like for example bonus microwarp speed to drones.
And please a little more breathing space to Kii2 (CCP Rise), he's new to his job and he's doing a good work by showing his intended changes open to feedback. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2589
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 14:09:00 -
[2054] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Andy Landen wrote:Love the new Dominix! It makes sense to focus on drones. Have you guys also considered a drone range control bonus for it? It makes sense and the Ishtar has it. +1 for supporting the Dominix focusing on drones (the hybrid bonus lovers are a bit annoying), not so much for you liking it as is. Haha. As for your suggestion about Drone Control Range Bonus, the Ishtar's only applies to Combat/Attack drones, and this new Dominix is focusing "more" on sentries. An overall Control Range bonus would certainly be welcomed with open arms, though.
Ishtar drone range bonus does in fact apply to sentries as well, the ship description is just wrong.
No bonus would be needed (Domi already has a shitload of bonuses) if they just upped the native control range to something like 80km, it is a battleship anyway. DLAs could be buffed as well.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 14:15:00 -
[2055] - Quote
Roime wrote:ExAstra wrote:Andy Landen wrote:Love the new Dominix! It makes sense to focus on drones. Have you guys also considered a drone range control bonus for it? It makes sense and the Ishtar has it. +1 for supporting the Dominix focusing on drones (the hybrid bonus lovers are a bit annoying), not so much for you liking it as is. Haha. As for your suggestion about Drone Control Range Bonus, the Ishtar's only applies to Combat/Attack drones, and this new Dominix is focusing "more" on sentries. An overall Control Range bonus would certainly be welcomed with open arms, though. Ishtar drone range bonus does in fact apply to sentries as well, the ship description is just wrong. No bonus would be needed (Domi already has a shitload of bonuses) if they just upped the native control range to something like 80km, it is a battleship anyway. DLAs could be buffed as well. 1) Are you serious? You just changed my life.
2) Yeah I'd rather control range or DLAs get boosted as to giving the Dominix itself a special bonus. Save the drones! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2590
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 14:38:00 -
[2056] - Quote
I am. CCP is really, really bad at keeping the ship and module descriptions accurate and up to date.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Mata Hotaki
DayZero
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 15:40:00 -
[2057] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Andy Landen wrote:Love the new Dominix! It makes sense to focus on drones. Have you guys also considered a drone range control bonus for it? It makes sense and the Ishtar has it. +1 for supporting the Dominix focusing on drones (the hybrid bonus lovers are a bit annoying), not so much for you liking it as is. Haha. As for your suggestion about Drone Control Range Bonus, the Ishtar's only applies to Combat/Attack drones, and this new Dominix is focusing "more" on sentries. An overall Control Range bonus would certainly be welcomed with open arms, though.
Gallente ships are short range, high damage, drone/hybrid boats. Everyone who flies Gallente specializes in hybrids and drones. Not sentries, mind you. I think I plugged in the sentry skill when I hit 50 mil SP or so. Why? I hate missions (and PvE in general). Turret ships, even with rails, are massively better for sniping. Even after the prposed bonus, the situation won't change. The "scoop drones" mechanic is just not working well if I have to fly around, or if I am in fleet. Last but not least, this long-range pea-shootery is *not* why I chose to train Gallente in the first place.
The new Domi bonuses mean that you more or less *have* to use it with sentries. Range and tracking bonuses only apply to non-sentry drones in a very, very limited set of situations. Actually, I can't even think of anything reasonable.
Omnathious Deninard wrote:My personal experiences with the changes to the Dominix were pleasant. I did feel it needed more control range and a bigger drone bay. As far as the damage went, it was good damage at many different ranges, with only a problem area between 20~40Km. I was using 350mm Railgun II and Curator II
Yes, that will show these rats!
How good (or bad) a ship is for missions/PvE is irrelevant, as we are discussing ship balance here. It is not about having a new mission boat that you can drive with your Gallente SP. You can PvE in any ship. The rats will die. It is a certain as death and taxes.
The Domi should be a viable option to Geddon, Scorp and Typhoon. It is now, but after reading this thread, I am training Amarr. Geddon is that much better. As is Typhoon (both before and after) and Scorp (it is unique, and it is not being nerfed).
And to whoever said that "fitting blasters will still be more damaging", try getting in range with the new mass increase. Also, unlike projectiles, blasters have tracking issues, use both cap and ammo, and only do thermal/kinetic. There is a well-known and wise fitting rule: if a ship has no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. People came up with this for a good reason. |
Mata Hotaki
DayZero
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 15:47:00 -
[2058] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Bigg Gun wrote:FU leave the domi alone !!! I had a reason to fit hybrids, now all you'll ever see is domis with projectiles.n CCP can do nothing for the people who prefer to fit AC despite the ample fitting to fit blasters. Blasters still do insanely more damage than AC, even unbonused. Hell ! Even pulses do a lot more damage than AC !
Except ACs have superior tracking, insane falloff, can choose damage type, and don't use cap to shoot (which is a big deal in this age of cap warfare).
If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule. |
Mata Hotaki
DayZero
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 15:51:00 -
[2059] - Quote
Grendell wrote:Was hoping to come in here and see a massive boost to my old brawler Megathron. Leaving disappointed and letting the dust keep gathering on the old beast. Had some good times in that Mega. When's the next fix?EDIT: After further review of the Mega; Seeing the lack of fix/buffs for blaster boats over the years, I am very glad I made the switch to other races. Any changes made to the Mega would have to be significant. As it stand in it's current form and the proposed form, it always comes up short. Current and proposed form the main problem is actually being able to apply the damage due to it's short range. Even then, comparing it's damage and tracking to other races, it's nothing special. The other races are almost always better choices, there is currently always a better option over the Megathron. The problem doesn't only lie in the ship, it's with blaster and hybrid ammo as well. While us die hard bitter vet Megathron pilots appreciate an attempt to bring this iconic ship back into a viable platform, this proposition just didn't measure up. You will not be getting a rose tonight, the tribe has spoken. Don't take my word for it though, just look at the numbers on eve-kill for 20 most used pvp ships in Eve. In the top 20 list you find 1 Gallente ship. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see there's a problem. It's clearly not just with the balancing of each and every on of those ships, it's a larger problem with Blasters, Hybrid ammo, and drones. You will never balance Gallente ships until you fix those issues.
Quoting Grendell from Page 3. Likely the best post in this whole threadnaught. The more I think about these changes, the more upsetting they are. Gallente BS did not really deserve a nerf, as they were not that great to start with. With the (overall) boosts the other races get, why would I want to fly Gallente, except that I have already wasted my SPs? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
910
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 15:52:00 -
[2060] - Quote
I would have loved to do some PvP with it but there was only 6 people on the test server when I was on. So it was a no go. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
|
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 15:59:00 -
[2061] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:I would have loved to do some PvP with it but there was only 6 people on the test server when I was on. So it was a no go.
I don't even need to go on the test server to know that PvP with sentries and 350s is terrible (except for a few niche situations).
It is also obvious that the whole concept of "ship balance" is based on PvP, not shooting rats. That is, no single race should be OMGWTFBBQWIN, and no race should be useless. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2590
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 17:23:00 -
[2062] - Quote
More clueless whiners <3
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 17:49:00 -
[2063] - Quote
Mata Hotaki wrote:If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule. This rule is silly (and AC do not have more tracking than blasters, actually, neutron blasters have 20% more tracking than 800mm AC).
People fit AC when they don't care about their weapon, or don't want to use cap for them.
If you want to hurt your ennemy, blasters are better : electron blaster do more damage than 800mm AC up to 5km. If you want to hit far, pulse laser are better : Dual heavy pulse do more damage than 800mm AC at 7km, and Dual Heavy Beam do more damage than 800mm AC at 14km.
Yes, I'm using the worse weapons possible to compare to 800mm AC. What these weapons don't have is capless use and versatility. But if you use AC for another reason than capless use or versatility, that's either because you don't care about the guns performances of your ship, or you don't know what you are doing.
Also, 800mm AC use the most PG of all the weapons I compared it to, but a little less CPU (4Tf less than the most cpu intensive of them).
There is no reason to use AC now if you didn't used them before, appart from the psychological barrier of the old bonus. In this regard, the Dominix earn a LOT of versatility. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 18:21:00 -
[2064] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote: The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage.
Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...
you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago. "Listen better"? This is a forum. We read here. All you said was "the first iteration worked" which I (apparently) misinterpreted to mean the original design. "Proposal" would have been a much better choice of vocabulary. So how do you think the first balance proposal was better? Because it was "more likely to be shield tanked"?
Yes a shield tanked mega with a utility high allows it to serve its attack role properly although i still think it needs more speed and agility but at least with nanos you can get somewhere but a dual plated/trimarked version is just a slow brick with pitiful range. that most things can outrange and outmaneuver. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Mata Hotaki
DayZero
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 19:18:00 -
[2065] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Mata Hotaki wrote:If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule. This rule is silly (and AC do not have more tracking than blasters, actually, neutron blasters have 20% more tracking than 800mm AC). People fit AC when they don't care about their weapon, or don't want to use cap for them.
Amazing. You will say anything to prove your point, even if you are flat out wrong.
Actual stats (copy-paste from eve-wiki.net):
Optimal Falloff CPU PG Tracking Activation 800mm AC II: 4,800m 19,200m 41tf 2,200MW 0.0432 rad/s 0 Energy Neutron Blaster II: 7,200m 10,000m 61tf 2363MW 0.0433 rad/s 18.2 Energy
20% more tracking? Really?
With faction high-damage ammo (such as RF EMP) my AC optimal is 50%, but the falloff is unaffected. I am fighting in falloff, which gives me effective range way in excess of 20K, even with crappy skills. And I can choose my damage, and will shoot back even if neuted.
If I fit neutrons (or god forbid electrons), I have to be literally on top of the shootee. At least 10 km closer than with ACs. And I have to track them at *that* range. The difference with ACs will be more than 20%, and *not* in favor of blasters.
In order to fit these wonders of Gallente tech, I need to spend 20 CPU more per gun, and 163 PG more per gun before skills. Now, with damage bonus, it just might be worth it. If I land a wrecking shot here and there, I might just melt the shootee. Without damage bonus, and with increased mass, these weapons are horrible and useless.
That's why you only see hybrids on bonused Gallente hulls. And this is why people will only fit autocannons on the new Domi (like they do it on Myrmidons now).
It will be just one more ship where hybrids are useless. As if hybrids needed a nerf. |
Ellie McAmber
Garoun Exploration LLC
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 19:56:00 -
[2066] - Quote
After looking at the proposed changes, I completely understand why Gallente BS thread is almost an order of magnitude longer than Minnie or Caldari threads.
The proposed changes are bad, and are an overall nerf to Gallente.
- Hyperion: it got some love, but it still comes with that active rep bonus. THAT bonus. Recent changes to armor tanking were good, but not *that* good. Why again would I fly a Hype over an Abaddon or Rokh or a Maelstrom?
- Mega: it's OK. It was not that great to start with, and it is not really being nerfed or buffed - it is just a bit different.
- Domi: my eyes bleed. Amarr are getting an "I-Win" battleship with the new Geddon. Gallente are getting this sentry boat, which is way worse for most PvP situations, and may be sort of OK for missions/ratting. Before the nerf, this was one of the most fun Gallente ships, and (uncharacteristically) it was fun without being OP.
What is really sad (though typical), the thread has plenty bad posts by missionrunners, who seem to be drooling at the perspective of this uber-sentry Domi. Finally, they will become good at killing rats using their Gallente SP.
Of course, this has nothing to do with good game balance.
Like many people here, I am starting to train Amarr. New Geddon and lazors are totally worth the cross-training. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 20:00:00 -
[2067] - Quote
eve-wiki is outdated : changes hybrid got a year ago aren't updated.
Anyway, prefer whatever weapon you want, they all deserve to exists for good reasons, but AC being plain better when not bonused is completely wrong. They are better, as I said, when you don't need cap or want versatility (both with damage profile and engagement range). |
Mata Hotaki
DayZero
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 20:13:00 -
[2068] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:eve-wiki is outdated : changes hybrid got a year ago aren't updated.
Anyway, prefer whatever weapon you want, they all deserve to exists for good reasons, but AC being plain better when not bonused is completely wrong. They are better, as I said, when you don't need cap or want versatility (both with damage profile and engagement range).
My bad - they have indeed upped the tracking.
However, the second part of my argument (that is, the necessity to track stuff that is closer) still stands. The hybrid buff just made hybrids competitive with projectiles when fitted on bonused hulls.
Note that the summer changes include a nerf to TEs (meant to fix OP projectiles). Also note that the "new" Domi receives a ship mass nerf.
You are absolutely correct when you explain when to use projectiles. Thing is, most people never want to use cap, and they always want a flexible engagement range and damage profile. Not the qualifiers, "never" and "always".
I for one welcome our projectile-shooting Domi overlords. Unless CCP Rise decides not to nerf the Domi. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2594
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 20:49:00 -
[2069] - Quote
Mata Hotaki wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:eve-wiki is outdated : changes hybrid got a year ago aren't updated.
Anyway, prefer whatever weapon you want, they all deserve to exists for good reasons, but AC being plain better when not bonused is completely wrong. They are better, as I said, when you don't need cap or want versatility (both with damage profile and engagement range). My bad - they have indeed upped the tracking. However, the second part of my argument (that is, the necessity to track stuff that is closer) still stands. The hybrid buff just made hybrids competitive with projectiles when fitted on bonused hulls. Note that the summer changes include a nerf to TEs (meant to fix OP projectiles). Also note that the "new" Domi receives a ship mass nerf. You are absolutely correct when you explain when to use projectiles. Thing is, most people never want to use cap, and they always want a flexible engagement range and damage profile. Not the qualifiers, "never" and "always". I for one welcome our projectile-shooting Domi overlords. Unless CCP Rise decides not to nerf the Domi.
lolautos
Do you even pvp?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 21:00:00 -
[2070] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote: The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage.
Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...
you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago. "Listen better"? This is a forum. We read here. All you said was "the first iteration worked" which I (apparently) misinterpreted to mean the original design. "Proposal" would have been a much better choice of vocabulary. So how do you think the first balance proposal was better? Because it was "more likely to be shield tanked"? Yes a shield tanked mega with a utility high allows it to serve its attack role properly although i still think it needs more speed and agility but at least with nanos you can get somewhere but a dual plated/trimarked version is just a slow brick with pitiful range. that most things can outrange and outmaneuver.
Getting really old really fast this shield tank mega thing you and others got a fetish for...
I'm more happy with the current proposal than the previous one less chance of a shield tank, Although I still want 8 turrets on one but I can deal with just flying a vindicator all the time to get it.
as soon as I get home I will have more of an insight to what further changes I think the mega should have once tested.
|
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Mata Hotaki
DayZero
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 21:36:00 -
[2071] - Quote
Roime wrote:
lolautos
Do you even pvp?
I do, and typically have two Domis in my hangar.
One is usually fit with neutrons. The other has a full rack of assorted neuts. Both very cookie-cutter.
After the nerf, the benefits of lolautos will likely outweigh the benefits of lolneutrons. Especially since the Domi will be less maneuverable. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 21:44:00 -
[2072] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:ExAstra wrote: The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage.
Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...
you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago. "Listen better"? This is a forum. We read here. All you said was "the first iteration worked" which I (apparently) misinterpreted to mean the original design. "Proposal" would have been a much better choice of vocabulary. So how do you think the first balance proposal was better? Because it was "more likely to be shield tanked"? Yes a shield tanked mega with a utility high allows it to serve its attack role properly although i still think it needs more speed and agility but at least with nanos you can get somewhere but a dual plated/trimarked version is just a slow brick with pitiful range. that most things can outrange and outmaneuver. Getting really old really fast this shield tank mega thing you and others got a fetish for... I'm more happy with the current proposal than the previous one less chance of a shield tank, Although I still want 8 turrets on one but I can deal with just flying a vindicator all the time to get it. as soon as I get home I will have more of an insight to what further changes I think the mega should have once tested.
Well lets put this another, how is the mega is an attack battleship when the Hype is faster after you've fitted plates? If you plated both ships the Hyperion would have more buffer so its better as a plated combat ship... so whats the point in a plated mega?.... At least a shield mega offers you something different ... lots of speed a tanky Talos if you will.. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
912
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 22:34:00 -
[2073] - Quote
Mata Hotaki wrote:Roime wrote:
lolautos
Do you even pvp?
I do, and typically have two Domis in my hangar. One is usually fit with neutrons. The other has a full rack of assorted neuts. Both very cookie-cutter. After the nerf, the benefits of lolautos will likely outweigh the benefits of lolneutrons. Especially since the Domi will be less maneuverable. Why would you use a Dominix for that? The Armageddon is better for that. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 02:11:00 -
[2074] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote: Well lets put this another, how is the mega is an attack battleship when the Hype is faster after you've fitted plates? If you plated both ships the Hyperion would have more buffer so its better as a plated combat ship... so whats the point in a plated mega?.... At least a shield mega offers you something different ... lots of speed a tanky Talos if you will..
Not true ( as I've just got home and tested on duality ) let me share some of my preliminary findings regarding the new gallente line up.
The criteria:
1600 T2 plates x 2 3 x Trimarks 1 x T2 100 MN MWD Overloaded MWD
The Results:
Dominix = 1132 M/s Hyperion = 1195 M/s Megathron = 1281 M/s
Don't get me wrong it could be a bit faster to catch others, But even with a similar fit ( nothing that reduces speed or agility ) the mega would still out run the hyperion 1539 M/s vs 1435 M/s.
On another note I find the mega ( only one I've been playing with fittings for so far ) is lacking in CPU a bit despite the + 20 but then again I've always found it quite low on CPU even before the new proposal.
CCP could we get a better bump in CPU for the mega say to something like 630 ( quite an increase I know ) but we have mods like the reactive armor hardener, micro dump drive and target spectrum breaker ( two of which are modules restricted to BS hulls ) that all use more than the +20 CPU you have given the mega.
Note: I'm missing acceleration control 5 so figures are not the max they should be ( thanks duality mirror ). |
Hitako Hirutoshi
Les Anarchistes
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 05:05:00 -
[2075] - Quote
Must admits, those changes to gallente are totally disgusting... saying hte hyperion dish less damage with guns(6 * 1.5 = 9 and 8 * 1.25 = 10). I hate ROF bonus to the megatrhon but with one less low slot it means less dps in the end and will cost more capacitor, remember gallente isnt capless minmatar/caldari.
Screw dominix changes, worst changes of all time. with the bonus gone why bother with the hybrid the gallente trains for, they should either go autocannons... + you lock the ship to a pure drone purpose. Screw those changes. I'll be rage quitting the game I guess. |
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 08:12:00 -
[2076] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Mata Hotaki wrote:If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule. This rule is silly (and AC do not have more tracking than blasters, actually, neutron blasters have 20% more tracking than 800mm AC). People fit AC when they don't care about their weapon, or don't want to use cap for them. If you want to hurt your ennemy, blasters are better : electron blaster do more damage than 800mm AC up to 5km. If you want to hit far, pulse laser are better : Dual heavy pulse do more damage than 800mm AC at 7km, and Dual Heavy Beam do more damage than 800mm AC at 14km. Yes, I'm using the worse weapons possible to compare to 800mm AC. What these weapons don't have is capless use and versatility. But if you use AC for another reason than capless use or versatility, that's either because you don't care about the guns performances of your ship, or you don't know what you are doing. Also, 800mm AC use the most PG of all the weapons I compared it to, but a little less CPU (4Tf less than the most cpu intensive of them). There is no reason to use AC now if you didn't used them before, appart from the psychological barrier of the old bonus. In this regard, the Dominix earn a LOT of versatility.
Nice, nerf it to **** so you can use anything on it and it still won't matter. So it can be versatally ******. |
Kane Fenris
NWP
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 13:43:00 -
[2077] - Quote
Hi,
i read alot in minmatar and galente bs balance threads and i mybe came up with a soloution for the balance problem for the megatron and tempest BS.
why dont give all the attack BS ships a role bonuslike : (values discussable) 25% reduction of armor plate mass penalty 25% reduction of shield equipment sig radius penalty
of cours things would have to be rebalanced a bit but it would fix the problem that short ranged fast ships would be fast enough amor tanked while not beeing ridiciolus fast shield tanked. similar logic for tempest at shields cause sinature and speed is a big point of debate.
so attack bs sould bee fast and skiny while armor or shield tanked wo creating any OP not intended fits.
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 13:49:00 -
[2078] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Hi,
i read alot in minmatar and galente bs balance threads and i mybe came up with a soloution for the balance problem for the megatron and tempest BS.
why dont give all the attack BS ships a role bonuslike : (values discussable) 25% reduction of armor plate mass penalty 25% reduction of shield equipment sig radius penalty
of cours things would have to be rebalanced a bit but it would fix the problem that short ranged fast ships would be fast enough amor tanked while not beeing ridiciolus fast shield tanked. similar logic for tempest at shields cause sinature and speed is a big point of debate.
so attack bs sould bee fast and skiny while armor or shield tanked wo creating any OP not intended fits.
interesting ofc those can be built into the ship itself in terms of mass and sig radius but that is only half of the issue. -cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank -CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack. -mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together. -Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Drunken Bum
125
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 14:36:00 -
[2079] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Mata Hotaki wrote:Roime wrote:
lolautos
Do you even pvp?
I do, and typically have two Domis in my hangar. One is usually fit with neutrons. The other has a full rack of assorted neuts. Both very cookie-cutter. After the nerf, the benefits of lolautos will likely outweigh the benefits of lolneutrons. Especially since the Domi will be less maneuverable. Why would you use a Dominix for that? The Armageddon is better for that. i c wut u did there Spare some change?-á |
Jerick Ludhowe
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
426
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 15:35:00 -
[2080] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
interesting ofc those can be built into the ship itself in terms of mass and sig radius but that is only half of the issue. -cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank -CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack. -mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together. -Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.
In all honesty, All the current proposal of the mega needs is another 25m3 bandwidth. It currently does more dps than it does on live (extra low) as well as being slightly more mobile. The fact that a much larger portion of it's damage comes from guns rather than heavy drones means that it's going to be doing even more dps in actual engagements due to overheat opportunity and an increased % of the dmg being instant rather than revolving around travel time. As I've stated, much of the wines in regards to the live version of the mega and current proposal are fruitless.
As for the tempest... This one gets a bit more tricky. I think it should be a small amount faster and swap a low for another mid as well as receive an increased drone bandwidth.
|
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ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 17:16:00 -
[2081] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
-cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank
-CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack. -mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together.
-Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.
No. It. Doesn't.
If they won't take away the LAR bonus to the Hyperion they're not giving you a 6/7/6 Megathron for shield tanking. Get over it. Save the drones! |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 17:23:00 -
[2082] - Quote
Hoinus wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Mata Hotaki wrote:If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule. This rule is silly (and AC do not have more tracking than blasters, actually, neutron blasters have 20% more tracking than 800mm AC). **snip** In this regard, the Dominix earn a LOT of versatility. Nice, nerf it to **** so you can use anything on it and it still won't matter. So it can be versatally ******.
Hoinus wins this thread.
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
724
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 19:29:00 -
[2083] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:
-cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank
-CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack. -mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together.
-Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.
No. It. Doesn't. If they won't take away the LAR bonus to the Hyperion they're not giving you a 6/7/6 Megathron for shield tanking. Get over it.
You haven't noticed the first version proposed for Megathron? -it was nothing but a poor copy of the Baltec1 lol shield fleet Megathron and no, no one asks for a 6/7/6 Megathron or maybe just to mock a bit dev's vision/understanding of Gallente philosophy or gameplay. If something this new version of Mega and all battleships in general from my point of view have a very poor dps and should get a huge dps kick for at least 100% of what they have -well maybe not arty, those are already fotom enough with their wrecking shot at 20K alpha.
If you haven't figured out yet Gallente pilots ask for ages to be able to use their ships with the intended armor modules without IRL masochist requirement, then you'll never get it. If we fit our ships with shield modules maybe there's a reason for it but you seem unable to realize which one. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 19:35:00 -
[2084] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:
-cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank
-CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack. -mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together.
-Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.
No. It. Doesn't. If they won't take away the LAR bonus to the Hyperion they're not giving you a 6/7/6 Megathron for shield tanking. Get over it. You haven't noticed the first version proposed for Megathron? -it was nothing but a poor copy of the Baltec1 lol shield fleet Megathron and no, no one asks for a 6/7/6 Megathron or maybe just to mock a bit dev's vision/understanding of Gallente philosophy or gameplay. If something this new version of Mega and all battleships in general from my point of view have a very poor dps and should get a huge dps kick for at least 100% of what they have -well maybe not arty, those are already fotom enough with their wrecking shot at 20K alpha. If you haven't figured out yet Gallente pilots ask for ages to be able to use their ships with the intended armor modules without IRL masochist requirement, then you'll never get it. If we fit our ships with shield modules maybe there's a reason for it but you seem unable to realize which one. In other words, "Because armor is broken and Amarr get better range and don't care as much about speed you should make Gallente ships shield tanked because I like it better"?
All I'm hearing is whining and a desire to completely alter a design to conform to flavor-of-the-month rather than fix the problems the ships actually have.
And 5 mid slots does not a shield tanked battleship make. Save the drones! |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
724
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 19:42:00 -
[2085] - Quote
Entity wrote:How will this affect the Megathron Federate Issue?
8 high = 8 turrets
6 mid slots
8 lows
150 m3 drone bay 125 bdwt
Gallente Hybrid bonus: 7.5% ROF and tracking per Gallente Battleship level Gallente Drone bonus: can deploy a supplemental light scout/logistic drone per level of advanced Gallente battleship skill Serpentis bonus: 20% range and strength of stasis webfiers and warp jamming systems
Don't thank me CCP, just send me a couple 10 copy BPC's to show your respect for my knowledge of Gallente philosophy and how they should operate. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:39:00 -
[2086] - Quote
3 things I want from this patch or CCP Rise to change from the proposed rules
1) Hyperion- Please change the armor repair bonus. No one likes or wants it change it to something useful maybe a speed bonus or web range bonus.
2) Mega- Give it back its full drone bay. Since it lost its high this will help give it some versatility. (personally I prefer 5 mids and all 5 drones)
3) Domi, WTF huge nerf. Who is actually wanting a DRONE sniper ship that you can't move with. Terrible. Please also change the graphics for this ship maybe 1% like it and others refuse to fly it because its so silly looking.
That is all........... |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:40:00 -
[2087] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Entity wrote:How will this affect the Megathron Federate Issue? 8 high = 8 turrets 6 mid slots 8 lows 150 m3 drone bay 125 bdwt Gallente Hybrid bonus: 7.5% ROF and tracking per Gallente Battleship level Gallente Drone bonus: can deploy a supplemental light scout/logistic drone per level of advanced Gallente battleship skill Serpentis bonus: 20% range and strength of stasis webfiers and warp jamming systems Don't thank me CCP, just send me a couple 10 copy BPC's to show your respect for my knowledge of Gallente philosophy and how they should operate.
That would be the perfect ship.. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
101
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:54:00 -
[2088] - Quote
smoking gun81 wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote: Well lets put this another, how is the mega is an attack battleship when the Hype is faster after you've fitted plates? If you plated both ships the Hyperion would have more buffer so its better as a plated combat ship... so whats the point in a plated mega?.... At least a shield mega offers you something different ... lots of speed a tanky Talos if you will..
Not true ( as I've just got home and tested on duality ) let me share some of my preliminary findings regarding the new gallente line up. The criteria: 1600 T2 plates x 2 3 x Trimarks 1 x T2 100 MN MWD Overloaded MWD The Results: Dominix = 1132 M/s Hyperion = 1195 M/s Megathron = 1281 M/s Don't get me wrong it could be a bit faster to catch others, But even with a similar fit ( nothing that reduces speed or agility ) the mega would still out run the hyperion 1539 M/s vs 1435 M/s. On another note I find the mega ( only one I've been playing with fittings for so far ) is lacking in CPU a bit despite the + 20 but then again I've always found it quite low on CPU even before the new proposal. CCP could we get a better bump in CPU for the mega say to something like 630 ( quite an increase I know ) but we have mods like the reactive armor hardener, micro jump drive and target spectrum breaker ( two of which are modules restricted to BS hulls ) that all use more than the +20 CPU you have given the mega. Note: I'm missing acceleration control 5 so figures are not the max they should be ( thanks duality mirror ).
shakes head..... i can read speed/mass stats in an OP ... i was referring to Hype being optimally fit i.e. armour reps/rep rigs as no speed penalty and mega then plated/trimarked. As you're not going to plate a Hyperion as you wouldn't plate a mega if you could shield tank it properly with 5 or 6 mids. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 22:18:00 -
[2089] - Quote
Seriously, stop talking about shield tanking the Megathron - no way, never, not a snowball in hells chance.
The new layouts work nicely, you can infact make a nice fleet boat of the Hyperion (by virtue of it's base HPs) by doing just as you would with the Maelstrom - ignore the self rep bonus completely, in this case, plate it.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Naomi Anthar
No Tax So Relax.
56
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 22:22:00 -
[2090] - Quote
Are you insane with this hyperion ? Mid + Low = 12 ... have you lost your mind completly ? I call it will be seriously overpowered. Mark my words. Especially that you nerfed Rokh and Abaddon at same time.
For drone boat its ok but for turret T_T. |
|
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 23:22:00 -
[2091] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote: shakes head..... i can read speed/mass stats in an OP ... i was referring to Hype being optimally fit i.e. armour reps/rep rigs as no speed penalty and mega then plated/trimarked. As you're not going to plate a Hyperion as you wouldn't plate a mega if you could shield tank it properly with 5 or 6 mids.
Listen ( or to be more precise read ) I'm really sorry you are never going to get your mythical 7 8 4 mega, but the hype and domi both offer you 5 mids go buy one of them and shield tank them ( or like I have told you or another that has a semi for shield tanking a mega go get a rokh ). I'm so glad you can read ( congratulations to whatever country's education system you have to thank for that ) but i'm guna bash your education system for reasoning skills ( more armor than shields and more lows than mids = armor ) get over it or provide a better argument than speed.
Personally I think you're better of terminating your character or trying your luck at getting an SP reimbursement.
ExAstra wrote:And 5 mid slots does not a shield tanked battleship make. so true but after prop mod, point and injector its more like 2 right All they want to do is stick dual XL ASB's on there and call it good but not to threat they would still die on the reload
Broxus Maximas wrote: 3) Domi, WTF huge nerf. Who is actually wanting a DRONE sniper ship that you can't move with. Terrible. Please also change the graphics for this ship maybe 1% like it and others refuse to fly it because its so silly looking.
getting a locator to find you ( and others that are making this claim ) so I can bait you into engaging and drop a blap dread on you just so I can giggle at the fact you don't want to move for fear of loosing what 10 mill odd in drones totally ridiculous, and just if you think high sec will save you arty will have a nice field day with the perfectly still target you present to it. |
Temai
Zero Zero Production
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:35:00 -
[2092] - Quote
so far i dont like what i see....
looks like im gona have to say bye bye to my Hyperion... i relly like that ship to...
|
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:47:00 -
[2093] - Quote
so testing things out on duality brought me to the conclusion that the domi has no place anymore since sentries are just as rarely used as the hospital fit the neut role has been stolen by the geddon entirely (I hate this ship so much) without the damage bonus it can't do crazy gank fits anymore the geddon is just as good solo if not better since it has more highs
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 03:14:00 -
[2094] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Hyperion:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
This is shameful, inconsistant, and easily fixable, which further compounds my bewilderment in CCP'S choice of bonuses. Here's how to fix these lopsided gallente bonuses to make it as streamlined as the new Megathron (which is going to be astonishingly awesome)
1. Switch the Armor Repair bonus from the Hyperion to the Dominix. This will turn the Domi into a battleship-sized, potato-shaped Myrmidon, whose bonuses fit in perfectly with its 7 low slots. This also solves the problem with appropriating bonuses to its variants.
2. Meanwhile, the Hyperion will have the absent repair bonus replaced with a firing rate bonus. This balances the Hyperion's issue of choosing between maximizing its dps and tank. The concept of an "attack" battleship is flawed in the sense that battleships by themselves can never be mobile attack vessels in any sense. The solution to that, obviously is to increase damage projection and availability. This is evidenced in the Megathron's new heavy role. Why not make the Hyperion more of an "Attack" battleship than the Megathron and Dominix, since it tends to work well shield tanked anyway? The megathron will be usable for armor fleets in any situation, while the harder-hitting hyperion can be used either for sniping or heavy damage dealing while moderately shield or armor tanked.
3. Since tiercide will be adjusting the manufacturing costs of each of these ships accordingly, true "balancing" will come about when ALL the ships are useful in their particular niches they fill well. With their current bonuses and manufacturing being adjusted as they stand now, the hyperion will drop BELOW the dominix in price because of demand, and the Megathron will rise above where the hyperion is, if the bar is set around or between the current hyperion and megathron manufacturing costs.
4. Consistency: This thread does not have it. The amarrian ship line is now a shining example of consistency for training lines. The ship line for the gallente should be as follows: Vexor>Myrmidon>Dominix = tanky, multipurpose drone boats usable for PVE or PVP Thorax>Brutix>Megathron = high dps, pvp-centric blasterboats with limited fitting flexibility but massive combat potential Thorax>Talos>Hyperion = Priemier damage dealers; strictly offensively-oriented vessels with unparalleled damage, good fitting flexibility, excellent pvp flexibility.
The end result would look like this:
Hyperion:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +5% Large Hybrid Turret Firing Rate
(keeps 8/5/6 slot loadout, slightly more HP adjusted to shields)
Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +7.5% Armor Repair amount
(Potato Myrm will be immensely effective. Power creep does not apply as severely to this as others because it will be on-par tank wise with the abby and maelstrom. Caldari hybrid boats can be fixed by increasing rail range, which will smooth out difficulties with hybrid crossover. I will be talking about that in the Caldari ships thread, because what has NOT been done to the poor, poor rokh is awful. No damage still.)
Anyway, just an idea. Critiques welcome, because I honestly want to find another idea that's better than this AND whatever CCP wants for the domi and hyperion. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
426
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 03:49:00 -
[2095] - Quote
Temai wrote:so far i dont like what i see....
looks like im gona have to say bye bye to my Hyperion... i relly like that ship to...
? This post makes no sense unless it's a troll....
Hyperion is better in pretty much every imaginable way than it was before... dual rep tank with ions and dual heavy cap injectors now fits... Dps overall is higher due to extra low and and the extra 25m3 of bandwidth... If anything the Hyperion is a bit too strong atm.
|
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
441
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 05:03:00 -
[2096] - Quote
I think I have some thoughts on the matter, but the idea probably won't fly...
I wonder if new Domi bonus can be used to make a fit with omnidirectional tracking links that would allow it to consistently hit frigs with medium drones?
If the answer is "yes" at least theoretically, then it's probably worth considering to add speed bonus for drones, which should be more significant for larger drones. At very least it can make traditional light drones to be useful against some specific fits. The reason I'm thinking about such things is because new Domi is so drone-centric, that it shouldn't be exclusively about sentries.
That said, mobile drones still could use better AI/controls so that they could shoot from non-standard ranges (when they have their range inreased), slow down to prevent out-tracking themselves etc.
On a side note, this thread represents greatly all the issues that tend to arise when attempts to fix applications before basics are made. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 07:08:00 -
[2097] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Hyperion:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
This is shameful, inconsistant, and easily fixable, which further compounds my bewilderment in CCP'S choice of bonuses. Here's how to fix these lopsided gallente bonuses to make it as streamlined as the new Megathron (which is going to be astonishingly awesome) 1. Switch the Armor Repair bonus from the Hyperion to the Dominix. This will turn the Domi into a battleship-sized, potato-shaped Myrmidon, whose bonuses fit in perfectly with its 7 low slots. This also solves the problem with appropriating bonuses to its variants. 2. Meanwhile, the Hyperion will have the absent repair bonus replaced with a firing rate bonus. This balances the Hyperion's issue of choosing between maximizing its dps and tank. The concept of an "attack" battleship is flawed in the sense that battleships by themselves can never be mobile attack vessels in any sense. The solution to that, obviously is to increase damage projection and availability. This is evidenced in the Megathron's new heavy role. Why not make the Hyperion more of an "Attack" battleship than the Megathron and Dominix, since it tends to work well shield tanked anyway? The megathron will be usable for armor fleets in any situation, while the harder-hitting hyperion can be used either for sniping or heavy damage dealing while moderately shield or armor tanked. 3. Since tiercide will be adjusting the manufacturing costs of each of these ships accordingly, true "balancing" will come about when ALL the ships are useful in their particular niches they fill well. With their current bonuses and manufacturing being adjusted as they stand now, the hyperion will drop BELOW the dominix in price because of demand, and the Megathron will rise above where the hyperion is, if the bar is set around or between the current hyperion and megathron manufacturing costs. 4. Consistency: This thread does not have it. The amarrian ship line is now a shining example of consistency for training lines. The ship line for the gallente should be as follows: Vexor>Myrmidon>Dominix = tanky, multipurpose drone boats usable for PVE or PVP Thorax>Brutix>Megathron = high dps, pvp-centric blasterboats with limited fitting flexibility but massive combat potential Thorax>Talos>Hyperion = Priemier damage dealers; strictly offensively-oriented vessels with unparalleled damage, good fitting flexibility, excellent pvp flexibility. The end result would look like this: Hyperion:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +5% Large Hybrid Turret Firing Rate (keeps 8/5/6 slot loadout, slightly more HP adjusted to shields) Dominix:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +7.5% Armor Repair amount (Potato Myrm will be immensely effective. Power creep does not apply as severely to this as others because it will be on-par tank wise with the abby and maelstrom. Caldari hybrid boats can be fixed by increasing rail range, which will smooth out difficulties with hybrid crossover. I will be talking about that in the Caldari ships thread, because what has NOT been done to the poor, poor rokh is awful. No damage still.) Anyway, just an idea. Critiques welcome, because I honestly want to find another idea that's better than this AND whatever CCP wants for the domi and hyperion.
Did you really consider those bonuses for hyperion? Or is it just you want some insanely overpowered ship?
Hyperion with those bonuses and 8turrets has 13.3 effective turrets. For comparison vindicator has 11 effective turrets. SO you will be looking at T1 battleship doing over 2500 DPS. I call that seriously overpowered.
|
Pablo Nerdfighter
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 07:16:00 -
[2098] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Translation: We are gonna punch you in the face, real hard; and we find this exciting. We hope you will too.
PS: You will probably pass out and may not get up or walk again for about a year or so, six months if you're lucky. But rest assured, eventually you will be up and running again. Well maybe. <3 |
Yami Badasaz
OBC The Kadeshi
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 07:42:00 -
[2099] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Seriously, stop talking about shield tanking the Megathron - no way, never, not a snowball in hells chance.
The new layouts work nicely, you can infact make a nice fleet boat of the Hyperion (by virtue of it's base HPs) by doing just as you would with the Maelstrom - ignore the self rep bonus completely, in this case, plate it.
This.
Just because a ship has a bonus doesn't mean you HAVE TO use it.
Also i hate how everyone and their mother has this annoying desire to shield tank every ship in the game. Really stop that. |
Camper101
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
464
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 08:08:00 -
[2100] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Hyperion:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Dominix:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
This is shameful, inconsistant, and easily fixable, which further compounds my bewilderment in CCP'S choice of bonuses. Here's how to fix these lopsided gallente bonuses to make it as streamlined as the new Megathron (which is going to be astonishingly awesome) 1. Switch the Armor Repair bonus from the Hyperion to the Dominix. This will turn the Domi into a battleship-sized, potato-shaped Myrmidon, whose bonuses fit in perfectly with its 7 low slots. This also solves the problem with appropriating bonuses to its variants. 2. Meanwhile, the Hyperion will have the absent repair bonus replaced with a firing rate bonus. This balances the Hyperion's issue of choosing between maximizing its dps and tank. The concept of an "attack" battleship is flawed in the sense that battleships by themselves can never be mobile attack vessels in any sense. The solution to that, obviously is to increase damage projection and availability. This is evidenced in the Megathron's new heavy role. Why not make the Hyperion more of an "Attack" battleship than the Megathron and Dominix, since it tends to work well shield tanked anyway? The megathron will be usable for armor fleets in any situation, while the harder-hitting hyperion can be used either for sniping or heavy damage dealing while moderately shield or armor tanked. 3. Since tiercide will be adjusting the manufacturing costs of each of these ships accordingly, true "balancing" will come about when ALL the ships are useful in their particular niches they fill well. With their current bonuses and manufacturing being adjusted as they stand now, the hyperion will drop BELOW the dominix in price because of demand, and the Megathron will rise above where the hyperion is, if the bar is set around or between the current hyperion and megathron manufacturing costs. 4. Consistency: This thread does not have it. The amarrian ship line is now a shining example of consistency for training lines. The ship line for the gallente should be as follows: Vexor>Myrmidon>Dominix = tanky, multipurpose drone boats usable for PVE or PVP Thorax>Brutix>Megathron = high dps, pvp-centric blasterboats with limited fitting flexibility but massive combat potential Thorax>Talos>Hyperion = Priemier damage dealers; strictly offensively-oriented vessels with unparalleled damage, good fitting flexibility, excellent pvp flexibility. The end result would look like this: Hyperion:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret damage +5% Large Hybrid Turret Firing Rate (keeps 8/5/6 slot loadout, slightly more HP adjusted to shields) Dominix:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +7.5% Armor Repair amount (Potato Myrm will be immensely effective. Power creep does not apply as severely to this as others because it will be on-par tank wise with the abby and maelstrom. Caldari hybrid boats can be fixed by increasing rail range, which will smooth out difficulties with hybrid crossover. I will be talking about that in the Caldari ships thread, because what has NOT been done to the poor, poor rokh is awful. No damage still.) Anyway, just an idea. Critiques welcome, because I honestly want to find another idea that's better than this AND whatever CCP wants for the domi and hyperion. Did you really consider those bonuses for hyperion? Or is it just you want some insanely overpowered ship? Hyperion with those bonuses and 8turrets has 13.3 effective turrets. For comparison vindicator has 11 effective turrets. SO you will be looking at T1 battleship doing over 2500 DPS. I call that seriously overpowered.
I would welcome the new Battleship overlord! *bows down*
NO seriously, that would be even more broken than the current concept :D 2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.
My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger. |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2607
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 08:18:00 -
[2101] - Quote
So, these threads appear to be abandoned by CCP?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 08:31:00 -
[2102] - Quote
Roime wrote:So, these threads appear to be abandoned by CCP?
yes |
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 09:12:00 -
[2103] - Quote
I suggest everyone with their bright ideas create 10 different threads detailing their plans. |
Temai
Zero Zero Production
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 09:26:00 -
[2104] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Temai wrote:so far i dont like what i see....
looks like im gona have to say bye bye to my Hyperion... i relly like that ship to...
? This post makes no sense unless it's a troll.... Hyperion is better in pretty much every imaginable way than it was before... dual rep tank with ions and dual heavy cap injectors now fits... Dps overall is higher due to extra low and and the extra 25m3 of bandwidth... If anything the Hyperion is a bit too strong atm.
just looking at the changes comeing in im probly not gona be flying Gallan for a long time
i dont fear changed before someone screams that i just dont like the direction the change is heading in and geting told it will be better when from what i can see atm its gona be "renderd" less than other races ships in overall performance
only bright side of this is the cost of the ships will drop a lot due to the shear amount of suck added to em so i guess you can get a cheep giggle on susideing em - Lost in Space looking for a Home dreaming of building outpost's acrross EVE - |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2609
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 09:37:00 -
[2105] - Quote
Temai wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Temai wrote:so far i dont like what i see....
looks like im gona have to say bye bye to my Hyperion... i relly like that ship to...
? This post makes no sense unless it's a troll.... Hyperion is better in pretty much every imaginable way than it was before... dual rep tank with ions and dual heavy cap injectors now fits... Dps overall is higher due to extra low and and the extra 25m3 of bandwidth... If anything the Hyperion is a bit too strong atm. just looking at the changes comeing in im probly not gona be flying Gallan for a long time i dont fear changed before someone screams that i just dont like the direction the change is heading in and geting told it will be better when from what i can see atm its gona be "renderd" less than other races ships in overall performance only bright side of this is the cost of the ships will drop a lot due to the shear amount of suck added to em so i guess you can get a cheep giggle on susideing em
So, what exactly is wrong with the Hyperion?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 10:53:00 -
[2106] - Quote
Temai wrote:
just looking at the changes comeing in im probly not gona be flying Gallan for a long time
i dont fear changed before someone screams that i just dont like the direction the change is heading in and geting told it will be better when from what i can see atm its gona be "renderd" less than other races ships in overall performance
only bright side of this is the cost of the ships will drop a lot due to the shear amount of suck added to em so i guess you can get a cheep giggle on susideing em
I am pretty much looking forward flying my hyperion. Finally a decent fitting option. And mega looks really sweet for fleets. How are they rendered worse in performance? |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 12:05:00 -
[2107] - Quote
Yami Badasaz wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Seriously, stop talking about shield tanking the Megathron - no way, never, not a snowball in hells chance.
The new layouts work nicely, you can infact make a nice fleet boat of the Hyperion (by virtue of it's base HPs) by doing just as you would with the Maelstrom - ignore the self rep bonus completely, in this case, plate it. This. Just because a ship has a bonus doesn't mean you HAVE TO use it. Also i hate how everyone and their mother has this annoying desire to shield tank every ship in the game. Really stop that. These guys have all of my love right now. Whether or not armor tanking is currently in a "not broken" state, it doesn't mean we should just make every ship in the game shield tanked.
Oh and obvs Autocannon bonuses. Give the Megathron Autocannon bonuses. Save the drones! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2611
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 12:26:00 -
[2108] - Quote
There's absolutely nothing wrong with buffer armor tanks, only active armor tanking, and this is also true for all active tanks which are not oversized ASBs.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
140
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 12:37:00 -
[2109] - Quote
What if the bonus to rep amount was changed to a bonus to cycle time to further lower the absurdly long cycle compared to the amount repaired. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
168
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 13:34:00 -
[2110] - Quote
Roime wrote:There's absolutely nothing wrong with buffer armor tanks, only active armor tanking, and this is also true for all active tanks which are not oversized ASBs.
That simply points that the sizing is wreong. WhatCCP think is oversized.. is the size that SHOULD BE!
Anything less than that its useless. Thing is.. armor active tank cannot use oversized modules....
All armor repairers should repair at LEAST 50% more than they currently do. And the non anciliary shield boosters could get a 25% boost as well. |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2612
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 13:37:00 -
[2111] - Quote
Yep, I agree. Oversized ASBs is about the correct level for active tanks, but they shouldn't be cap immune.
Strategies need to be viable and counterable.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
172
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 14:29:00 -
[2112] - Quote
Roime wrote:Yep, I agree. Oversized ASBs is about the correct level for active tanks, but they shouldn't be cap immune.
Strategies need to be viable and counterable.
They are not IMMUNE. They are more resilient. They are immune for like 20 seconds.. then they are VERY cap hungry .
I think CCP nerfed ASB wrongly. THey should not have changed their stats... they should have limited in 1 per ship. |
Castor Narcissus
Catarse
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 14:30:00 -
[2113] - Quote
Roime wrote:Yep, I agree. Oversized ASBs is about the correct level for active tanks, but they shouldn't be cap immune.
Strategies need to be viable and counterable.
They are counterable, you can't perma run them because of the charges. The problem is you can hold close to one hundred cap boosters if I'm not mistaken in BS's. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 14:49:00 -
[2114] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Roime wrote:Yep, I agree. Oversized ASBs is about the correct level for active tanks, but they shouldn't be cap immune.
Strategies need to be viable and counterable.
They are not IMMUNE. They are more resilient. They are immune for like 20 seconds.. then they are VERY cap hungry . I think CCP nerfed ASB wrongly. THey should not have changed their stats... they should have limited in 1 per ship. It's 30 seconds with T1 and 45 seconds with Navy 800s. I think ASBs are almost exactly where they need to be. Save the drones! |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 15:42:00 -
[2115] - Quote
Roime wrote:There's absolutely nothing wrong with buffer armor tanks, only active armor tanking, and this is also true for all active tanks which are not oversized ASBs.
I wouldn't call buffer/passive armor tanks broken at all. I will agree that it's a bit more of a challenge to get a plated BS to maintain a good speed:tank ratio, and thus Hyperion and Megathron should merely switch roles.Castor Narcissus wrote:They are counterable, you can't perma run them because of the charges. The problem is you can hold close to one hundred cap boosters if I'm not mistaken in BS's. Hahahaha. You are. Save the drones! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2616
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 16:02:00 -
[2116] - Quote
You can't affect the tank with neuts = neut immunity.
ExAstra, the reason why you see the Mega as plated ship is because active armor tanking isn't fixed yet.
And the reason I see active(hybrid) tanking the Mega as a possible option is because it's partly fixed.
1600mm+LAAR fit looks like it could almost work, after they finally buff the repper base rep amounts, reduce the cap drain and cycle time, a T2 LAAR will work. We're not talking about dramatic changes, 5-10% and it's go.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 16:14:00 -
[2117] - Quote
Roime wrote:You can't affect the tank with neuts = neut immunity.
ExAstra, the reason why you see the Mega as plated ship is because active armor tanking isn't fixed yet.
And the reason I see active(hybrid) tanking the Mega as a possible option is because it's partly fixed.
1600mm+LAAR fit looks like it could almost work, after they finally buff the repper base rep amounts, reduce the cap drain and cycle time, a T2 LAAR will work. We're not talking about dramatic changes, 5-10% and it's go.
Point taken, and well made.
At the same time, with the new 8 lows, a nano/plate Thron sounds oddly enticing.
Edit: And before someone yells about how stupid that is or whatever you are thinking: Then don't do it. Save the drones! |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 23:11:00 -
[2118] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:What if the bonus to rep amount was changed to a bonus to cycle time to further lower the absurdly long cycle compared to the amount repaired. if the rep time was upped the cap demand would also increas and make it even harder to keep feed
end result would be it would be easyer to nut out than it is atm |
Val'herin Dorn
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 06:07:00 -
[2119] - Quote
The changes to the Domi sadden me greatly... Oh well at least ill only have a few days before i can fly the Mach...
CCP Rise... you have wounded me sir. i will never forget this. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
443
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 06:39:00 -
[2120] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:Drake Doe wrote:What if the bonus to rep amount was changed to a bonus to cycle time to further lower the absurdly long cycle compared to the amount repaired. if the rep time was upped the cap demand would also increas and make it even harder to keep feed end result would be it would be easyer to nut out than it is atm Um... Add a "same-line" cap bonus that is there exactly to offset increased cap demand, thus achieving the same efficience as flat repair amount bonus would achieve? That may or may not be an interesting trick... |
|
Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 07:24:00 -
[2121] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
I like the Domi Changes, but i still feel like its being obsoleted by the Armageddon with its changes, there isnt really any niche that puts the Domi in competition of it, i think that giving it another bonus to increase the number of drones controlled by 1 per leveand increase the bay size to 400m3 and bandwidth to 250MBit and drop the turret hard points to 2 and 1 high slot for a low. So like the following. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) (+1 Drone Controlled per level)
Slot layout: 5H(-1), 5M, 8L(+1); 2 turrets(-4) , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 250(+125) / 400(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
What do you guys think? Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |
Donedy
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 08:47:00 -
[2122] - Quote
Rise president! |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 09:19:00 -
[2123] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
I like the Domi Changes, but i still feel like its being obsoleted by the Armageddon with its changes, there isnt really any niche that puts the Domi in competition of it, i think that giving it another bonus to increase the number of drones controlled by 1 per leveand increase the bay size to 400m3 and bandwidth to 250MBit and drop the turret hard points to 2 and 1 high slot for a low. So like the following. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) (+1 Drone Controlled per level)
Slot layout: 5H(-1), 5M, 8L(+1); 2 turrets(-4) , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 250(+125) / 400(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
What do you guys think?
EDIT: reduce CPU by 10% and increase Power-grid by 25%.
I think CCP Veritas will want your head on the plate. Not just once. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 11:14:00 -
[2124] - Quote
Castor Narcissus wrote:Roime wrote:Yep, I agree. Oversized ASBs is about the correct level for active tanks, but they shouldn't be cap immune.
Strategies need to be viable and counterable.
They are counterable, you can't perma run them because of the charges. The problem is you can hold close to one hundred cap boosters if I'm not mistaken in BS's.
very mistaken.. a typical BS hold will hold like 20-24 400 sized charges. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 11:15:00 -
[2125] - Quote
Roime wrote:You can't affect the tank with neuts = neut immunity.
ExAstra, the reason why you see the Mega as plated ship is because active armor tanking isn't fixed yet.
And the reason I see active(hybrid) tanking the Mega as a possible option is because it's partly fixed.
1600mm+LAAR fit looks like it could almost work, after they finally buff the repper base rep amounts, reduce the cap drain and cycle time, a T2 LAAR will work. We're not talking about dramatic changes, 5-10% and it's go.
You can affectt he tank. because you stop the hardeners. ASB are only RESILENT to neuts. Not immune. |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 11:30:00 -
[2126] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Roime wrote:You can't affect the tank with neuts = neut immunity.
ExAstra, the reason why you see the Mega as plated ship is because active armor tanking isn't fixed yet.
And the reason I see active(hybrid) tanking the Mega as a possible option is because it's partly fixed.
1600mm+LAAR fit looks like it could almost work, after they finally buff the repper base rep amounts, reduce the cap drain and cycle time, a T2 LAAR will work. We're not talking about dramatic changes, 5-10% and it's go.
You can affectt he tank. because you stop the hardeners. ASB are only RESILENT to neuts. Not immune.
ASBs are pretty much spot on. If you use a single one, it's really just a slowly working LSE with higher max HP and similiar interaction with the minmatar SB-Bonus as the passive resist bonus granted to other races' ships. Now with resistances being mildly tunes downwards, SB-bonused ships might finally create more EHP than a comparable resist-bonused set-up. Anyways, wether using two ASBs to create an active tank, or cap booster + SB to create a tank having less peak, more sustain are equally valid choices. ASB ships - unless you don't kill the container they are getting charges from - are running out of time incredibly quickly. I personally don't see much wrong with the current state of ASBs.
Hybrid tanking the mega though is incredibly appealing, mounting a plate and a repper that you can stick between two eanms or so, making up for very long OH-durations. For 80 more mil, you even get a c-type that you can use overheated with an exile boost for ages, in supersmallscale/solo-scenarios imo the smarter choice over a second plate. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
426
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 11:32:00 -
[2127] - Quote
Temai wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Temai wrote:so far i dont like what i see....
looks like im gona have to say bye bye to my Hyperion... i relly like that ship to...
? This post makes no sense unless it's a troll.... Hyperion is better in pretty much every imaginable way than it was before... dual rep tank with ions and dual heavy cap injectors now fits... Dps overall is higher due to extra low and and the extra 25m3 of bandwidth... If anything the Hyperion is a bit too strong atm. just looking at the changes comeing in im probly not gona be flying Gallan for a long time i dont fear changed before someone screams that i just dont like the direction the change is heading in and geting told it will be better when from what i can see atm its gona be "renderd" less than other races ships in overall performance only bright side of this is the cost of the ships will drop a lot due to the shear amount of suck added to em so i guess you can get a cheep giggle on susideing em
Dude... You're making no sense. You need to actually explain as to why the Hyperion is getting worse when you actually say it is. The reality is that the Hyperion is getting a whole hell of a lot better..... 6 Slot dual rep tank with 1 mag stab, 2x heavy cap injectors and full tackle + mwd, 6x Ions with a 50% dmg bonus, and a medium (or large if you have grid implant) nuet to finish things off. Oh yeah, and it gets a full rack of heavy drones, and another 50m3 to play with ontop of that.
I see lots of "doomsayers" like yourself claiming that the changes to gallente are game breaking however the reality is that every single one of the gallente BS is getting better outside of the nuetron gank Dominix... It's very clear that your issue is that you do in fact fear change as there is no legitimate reason to be upset with the current proposal.
|
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 11:37:00 -
[2128] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45) I like the Domi Changes, but i still feel like its being obsoleted by the Armageddon with its changes, there isnt really any niche that puts the Domi in competition of it, i think that giving it another bonus to increase the number of drones controlled by 1 per leveand increase the bay size to 400m3 and bandwidth to 250MBit and drop the turret hard points to 2 and 1 high slot for a low. So like the following. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) (+1 Drone Controlled per level) Slot layout: 5H(-1), 5M, 8L(+1); 2 turrets(-4) , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 250(+125) / 400(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45) What do you guys think? EDIT: reduce CPU by 10% and increase Power-grid by 25%.
I personally strognly object to 200mil battleships dishing out 1300+ sentry-dps with insane tracking/optimal bonus. And 8 lows. That is a disposable thanatos you got there <.<
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 11:48:00 -
[2129] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Roime wrote:You can't affect the tank with neuts = neut immunity.
ExAstra, the reason why you see the Mega as plated ship is because active armor tanking isn't fixed yet.
And the reason I see active(hybrid) tanking the Mega as a possible option is because it's partly fixed.
1600mm+LAAR fit looks like it could almost work, after they finally buff the repper base rep amounts, reduce the cap drain and cycle time, a T2 LAAR will work. We're not talking about dramatic changes, 5-10% and it's go.
You can affectt he tank. because you stop the hardeners. ASB are only RESILENT to neuts. Not immune. ASBs are pretty much spot on. If you use a single one, it's really just a slowly working LSE with higher max HP and similiar interaction with the minmatar SB-Bonus as the passive resist bonus granted to other races' ships. Now with resistances being mildly tunes downwards, SB-bonused ships might finally create more EHP than a comparable resist-bonused set-up. Anyways, wether using two ASBs to create an active tank, or cap booster + SB to create a tank having less peak, more sustain are equally valid choices. ASB ships - unless you don't kill the container they are getting charges from - are running out of time incredibly quickly. I personally don't see much wrong with the current state of ASBs. Hybrid tanking the mega though is incredibly appealing, mounting a plate and a repper that you can stick between two eanms or so, making up for very long OH-durations. For 80 more mil, you even get a c-type that you can use overheated with an exile boost for ages, in supersmallscale/solo-scenarios imo the smarter choice over a second plate.
That is why I said that CCP attempt to balance ASB was wrogn, they shoudl not have touched them..... they shoudl have only limited to 1 per ship. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 12:00:00 -
[2130] - Quote
All level 5 Dominix with 5 Garde IIs (no OTLs) still had a hard time hitting a double webbed Broadsword at 50km.
I was kinda disappointed, actually. Save the drones! |
|
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 12:31:00 -
[2131] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:All level 5 Dominix with 5 Garde IIs (no OTLs) still had a hard time hitting a double webbed Broadsword at 50km.
I was kinda disappointed, actually.
Your skills must be terrible... We use sentry-ishtars for station-games, and they got no issues hitting non-webbed battleships at 30. That is without 50% tracking bonus. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
920
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 13:28:00 -
[2132] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.
We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45) I like the Domi Changes, but i still feel like its being obsoleted by the Armageddon with its changes, there isnt really any niche that puts the Domi in competition of it, i think that giving it another bonus to increase the number of drones controlled by 1 per leveand increase the bay size to 400m3 and bandwidth to 250MBit and drop the turret hard points to 2 and 1 high slot for a low. So like the following. Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) (+1 Drone Controlled per level) Slot layout: 5H(-1), 5M, 8L(+1); 2 turrets(-4) , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 250(+125) / 400(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45) What do you guys think? EDIT: reduce CPU by 10% and increase Power-grid by 25%. OP as hell.
The only ship I might be able to imagine CCP allowing to get the coveted (+1 Drone Control Per Level) is the Navy Dominix, though many would be opposed to that ship changing at all. I could possibly see them doing this *Navy Dominix* +1 Drone Control Per Level +10% Drone Tracking and HP Bandwidth 250 Drone Bay 750m3 Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 13:51:00 -
[2133] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: The only ship I might be able to imagine CCP allowing to get the coveted (+1 Drone Control Per Level) is the Navy Dominix, though many would be opposed to that ship changing at all. I could possibly see them doing this *Navy Dominix* +1 Drone Control Per Level +10% Drone Tracking and HP Bandwidth 250 Drone Bay 750m3
Subtract tracking bonus and playing with turret slots if need be from this (in addition to the EHP and fitting numbers for reg) would get you at a reasonable vanilla Domi.
The argument I'm seeing here is that it's too "shiny" a bonus which is pretty subjective considering a large number of ship hulls used to be able to do this way back.
The question we are unable to answer from our perspective is whether after 8 years the server load would still be an issue. If so, larger damage/utility bonus could be applied to drones while still capping at 5. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 15:34:00 -
[2134] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:ExAstra wrote:All level 5 Dominix with 5 Garde IIs (no OTLs) still had a hard time hitting a double webbed Broadsword at 50km.
I was kinda disappointed, actually. Your skills must be terrible... We use sentry-ishtars for station-games, and they got no issues hitting non-webbed battleships at 30. That is without 50% tracking bonus. 1) My skills are all level 5 (any and all related to the drones). Please read. 2) You were hitting battleships, not a Broadsword (well gee that's 1/4 the sig and slow as hell to start with). Please read. Save the drones! |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 05:11:00 -
[2135] - Quote
Save the DOMI !!!! Do not remove the hybrid bonus or else you'll only see projectile domies
|
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
136
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 09:46:00 -
[2136] - Quote
as a dedicated dominix pilot for last several years i have to say these changes are crap ... i am going to quit for good if you ruin my ship with this crap... the double damage bonus is great and the main reason i fly it and the only reason i trained up my drone skills, large railgun spec and gallente battleship to 5.
and none of these changes will help gallente battleships its making them all worse.
I sure do hope your offering a refund for gallente trained skills in conjunction with these changes or you can kiss my accounts goodbye.
if it isnt broke dont fix it ... if it is broke then fix it right.
The dominix isnt broken its just fine but this change will ruin it.
the mega and hype are subpar and useless in fleets and that will not change with these changes it will only magnify it .... so again what are you guys doing or thinking over there?
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 09:58:00 -
[2137] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:as a dedicated dominix pilot for last several years i have to say these changes are crap ... i am going to quit for good if you ruin my ship with this crap... the double damage bonus is great and the main reason i fly it and the only reason i trained up my drone skills, large railgun spec and gallente battleship to 5.
and none of these changes will help gallente battleships its making them all worse.
I sure do hope your offering a refund for gallente trained skills in conjunction with these changes or you can kiss my accounts goodbye.
if it isnt broke dont fix it ... if it is broke then fix it right.
The dominix isnt broken its just fine but this change will ruin it.
the mega and hype are subpar and useless in fleets and that will not change with these changes it will only magnify it .... so again what are you guys doing or thinking over there?
are you nuts? The mega and the hyperion are borderline broken now. Much more powerful than they used to be! |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
136
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 10:22:00 -
[2138] - Quote
let me explain what your doing wrong ccp
CCP-With the Hyperion moving to more of a combat/utility ship via its drones .......
wtf we already got a combat utility in the dominix and we dont need some crap regurgitated hyperion to fulfill this ....
CCP-we felt the mega could now afford to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat
umm the mega was already a dedicated gunboat ... blasters specifically ... taking away its drones doesnt change anything ... this change is just exchanging some dps numbers and making the ship use more cap which is one its main flaws already
CCP-With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones)
why would you do this since noone complained about it and everyone loves it the way it is? this is an unnedded change. the dominix is a great combat utility ship as it is stop trying to swap its roles with hyperion
CCP-We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones
the gallente fleet options do no lie in sentry drones optimal or tracking they lie in you making the other useless gallente ship viable.
this is what you need to do to make gallente viable in fleets and not **** alot of people off using domi's already.
Hyperion- 7.5% hybrid rof bonus and 7.5% to Hybrid optimal range per level (this will make it a good mix between dmg and application for blasters using null and rails with antimatter)
this would be the armor version of the rokh favoring dmg over tank basically and would possibly see fleet representation .. much more so than the proposed version. maybe streamline the slot layout to favor this as well.
Megathron- 5% hybrid dmg bonus 5% increased armor amount per level
Gallente version of abbaddon dmg bonus instead of ROF bonus means it wont be so cap hungry. bonuses suggest fleet representation in armor fleets due to nice buffer ... should fit in well with armor doctrines using blasters or rails. adjust slots if needed accordingly.
Dominix- its just fine leave it ... its the best utility ship in the game by far already
fix things right dont re-break stuff for no reason.
|
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
136
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 10:29:00 -
[2139] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Fade Azura wrote:as a dedicated dominix pilot for last several years i have to say these changes are crap ... i am going to quit for good if you ruin my ship with this crap... the double damage bonus is great and the main reason i fly it and the only reason i trained up my drone skills, large railgun spec and gallente battleship to 5.
and none of these changes will help gallente battleships its making them all worse.
I sure do hope your offering a refund for gallente trained skills in conjunction with these changes or you can kiss my accounts goodbye.
if it isnt broke dont fix it ... if it is broke then fix it right.
The dominix isnt broken its just fine but this change will ruin it.
the mega and hype are subpar and useless in fleets and that will not change with these changes it will only magnify it .... so again what are you guys doing or thinking over there?
are you nuts? The mega and the hyperion are borderline broken now. Much more powerful than they used to be!
yeah i said they were crap basically and all these changes due to these 2 ships is the equivalent of shining up a turd ... it may look a bit nice but they are still gunna be crap and changes dont address the problems and dont fix anything and they are friggin pissing all over the domi with these changes. |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 11:38:00 -
[2140] - Quote
fleet domis are gonna be what : a mjd, sensor booster , 6 x 1400, and sentries? God a non moving fleet, which s#its drones. Yes I can see the Domi is the new fleet ship alright.
hyperion is better btw. mega is missing it's high slot , drones bandwidth and uses more cap so worse, with it's 8 lows i expect even more brick mentality.
I feel like they took from the mega and gave to the hyperion - why did they need to take from mega I do not know. |
|
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
143
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 12:02:00 -
[2141] - Quote
Would it be too much to ask for a higher damage bonus to maintain the difference between gallente and amarr drone boats? "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 12:39:00 -
[2142] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:fleet domis are gonna be what : a mjd, sensor booster , 6 x 1400, and sentries? God a non moving fleet, which s#its drones. Yes I can see the Domi is the new fleet ship alright.
hyperion is better btw. mega is missing it's high slot , drones bandwidth and uses more cap so worse, with it's 8 lows i expect even more brick mentality.
I feel like they took from the mega and gave to the hyperion - why did they need to take from mega I do not know.
at least the domi cannot fir 1400mm T2 because of powergrid :P |
Jerick Ludhowe
J temp corp
426
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 13:09:00 -
[2143] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:fleet domis are gonna be what : a mjd, sensor booster , 6 x 1400, and sentries? God a non moving fleet, which s#its drones. Yes I can see the Domi is the new fleet ship alright.
hyperion is better btw. mega is missing it's high slot , drones bandwidth and uses more cap so worse, with it's 8 lows i expect even more brick mentality.
I feel like they took from the mega and gave to the hyperion - why did they need to take from mega I do not know.
Mega is better than it was in almost all situations. The loss of a nuet in the high does have a negative effect however the cap issues that people often claim are "game breaking" are really rather insignificant. A single heavy cap booster is way more than enough to run your guns and your mwd. As for it's dps... A larger portion of it is in guns rather than drones and with the 8th low a 3rd mag stab can be fit onto the standard plater fit. This means that the post change mega will be doing like 70+ dps compared to current mega and a couple hundred more gun dps. Gun dps is > than heavy drone dps for multiple reasons, namely overheat, and lack of travel time. Only thing the current mega proposal could use is another 25m3 drone bay, after that, there should be no complaints beyond fruitless whiners.
|
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
1075
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 13:21:00 -
[2144] - Quote
I'll just leave this here: Gallente are a primary drone race? Look at the new Dominix. Now look at the new Armageddon. Now back at the Dominix. Get it?
And removing hybrid bonus from Dominix is fine and well. Except of course it totally breaks the progression. Frigate droneboat is hybrids/drones. Destroyer drone boat is hybrids/drones. Cruiser drone boat is hybrids/drones. Battleship drone boat is drones and...drumroll please...projectiles! That's right, say it with me, pro-jec-tiles. Did you not learn with Myrmidon? |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 13:43:00 -
[2145] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:I'll just leave this here: Gallente are a primary drone race? Look at the new Dominix. Now look at the new Armageddon. Now back at the Dominix. Get it?
And removing hybrid bonus from Dominix is fine and well. Except of course it totally breaks the progression. Frigate droneboat is hybrids/drones. Destroyer drone boat is hybrids/drones. Cruiser drone boat is hybrids/drones. Battleship drone boat is drones and...drumroll please...projectiles! That's right, say it with me, pro-jec-tiles. Did you not learn with Myrmidon?
Projectiles.. or tachyons with NOS :P At least the dominix will be able to feed the tachyons that the apoc cannot :P |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 14:12:00 -
[2146] - Quote
A 108 page threadnaught, and CCP Rise has not returned.
Can we have at least an acknowledgement from someone on Dev team that they are still thinking about Gallente BS? Or is it a done deal?
I really hope not. The new Sentrinix is awful |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
877
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 14:26:00 -
[2147] - Quote
I'm not sure how more optimal would work for anyone who uses combat drones instead of sentries. Perhaps add some more speed to the drones themselves as well as tracking like the algos. Maybe mwd and normal speed boost. I think the geddons ability to drain cap is just better than what the domi offers. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
182
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 14:33:00 -
[2148] - Quote
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:A 108 page threadnaught, and CCP Rise has not returned. Can we have at least an acknowledgement from someone on Dev team that they are still thinking about Gallente BS? Or is it a done deal? I really hope not. The new Sentrinix is awful
He has returned int he amarr thread. You cannot hope him to return to all 4 threads. You need to check each one always.
PERSONNALY I like the sentrynix. But i can agree that the bonuses are very pingeonholing it and that may make a lot of people unhappy. |
Dilbert HighSeed
Pirannha Corp
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 14:50:00 -
[2149] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:A 108 page threadnaught, and CCP Rise has not returned. Can we have at least an acknowledgement from someone on Dev team that they are still thinking about Gallente BS? Or is it a done deal? I really hope not. The new Sentrinix is awful He has returned int he amarr thread. You cannot hope him to return to all 4 threads. You need to check each one always. PERSONNALY I like the sentrynix. But i can agree that the bonuses are very pingeonholing it and that may make a lot of people unhappy.
The Dominix will be a solid mission boat, except of course against Explosive, as always. The Navy Domi will be an AWESOME mission boat, assuming it gets the same bonuses as the standard flavour version. The Navy Domi MIGHT be an solid Incursion boat.
But the PvP Domi will be a piece of junk compared to the Geddon, or the Mega, or maybe even the Hyperion. Why would anyone fly a Domi as anything but a Sentry alpha doctrine boat. And the Navy Vexor will fill that role, albeit at a much shorter range. But I would take a much more agile, and likely cheaper Navy Vexor over the Domi in that role.
Plus, given that Sentry drones have a 4 second lag before firing, now we are looking at something like 9-12 seconds of time from the start of a Domi locking to damage being applied to a cruiser hull. That would be rather useless in anything other that large stationary fleets engaged in massive fights. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 14:56:00 -
[2150] - Quote
Dilbert HighSeed wrote:
The Dominix will be a solid mission boat, except of course against Explosive, as always. The Navy Domi will be an AWESOME mission boat, assuming it gets the same bonuses as the standard flavour version. The Navy Domi MIGHT be an solid Incursion boat.
But the PvP Domi will be a piece of junk compared to the Geddon, or the Mega, or maybe even the Hyperion. Why would anyone fly a Domi as anything but a Sentry alpha doctrine boat. And the Navy Vexor will fill that role, albeit at a much shorter range. But I would take a much more agile, and likely cheaper Navy Vexor over the Domi in that role.
Plus, given that Sentry drones have a 4 second lag before firing, now we are looking at something like 9-12 seconds of time from the start of a Domi locking to damage being applied to a cruiser hull. That would be rather useless in anything other that large stationary fleets engaged in massive fights.
Yeah, the Sentrynix is the ultimate AFK ratter. Is that exciting to you? |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
184
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 15:02:00 -
[2151] - Quote
Dilbert HighSeed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:A 108 page threadnaught, and CCP Rise has not returned. Can we have at least an acknowledgement from someone on Dev team that they are still thinking about Gallente BS? Or is it a done deal? I really hope not. The new Sentrinix is awful He has returned int he amarr thread. You cannot hope him to return to all 4 threads. You need to check each one always. PERSONNALY I like the sentrynix. But i can agree that the bonuses are very pingeonholing it and that may make a lot of people unhappy. The Dominix will be a solid mission boat, except of course against Explosive, as always. The Navy Domi will be an AWESOME mission boat, assuming it gets the same bonuses as the standard flavour version. The Navy Domi MIGHT be an solid Incursion boat. But the PvP Domi will be a piece of junk compared to the Geddon, or the Mega, or maybe even the Hyperion. Why would anyone fly a Domi as anything but a Sentry alpha doctrine boat. And the Navy Vexor will fill that role, albeit at a much shorter range. But I would take a much more agile, and likely cheaper Navy Vexor over the Domi in that role. Plus, given that Sentry drones have a 4 second lag before firing, now we are looking at something like 9-12 seconds of time from the start of a Domi locking to damage being applied to a cruiser hull. That would be rather useless in anything other that large stationary fleets engaged in massive fights.
You know what would be a great dominix bonus? 10% per level extra remote armor repair :) Dominix woudl become a VERY powerful spider tanking battleship....
|
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 18:54:00 -
[2152] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: You know what would be a great dominix bonus? 10% per level extra remote armor repair :) Dominix woudl become a VERY powerful spider tanking battleship....
It doesn't need that to be a powerful spider tanking battleship. Changes to dominix are good. People are freaking about about nothing. -12% DPS in the absolute worst case, but much more tank, more grid, and more applied drone dps.
The gank boat with 2000 dps now does 1750 dps, oh noes, but has nearly twice the tank.
Most other fits, the rails, lasers, projectiles, RR, neut, smartbomb, get more powerful, and more unexpected.
The problems with the domi is drone control range, combat drone speed, and no way to recall sentry drones outside of 2500 meters, and not enough drone bay for 3 flights of heavies and a flight of lights or mediums.
I'd like 425m drone bay, sentry drones that have a mwd to return to the drone bay, and a speed boost to combat drones, but I'm glad the split weapons system that got unused or underutilized on most fits is going away. |
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 19:01:00 -
[2153] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:I'll just leave this here: Gallente are a primary drone race? Look at the new Dominix. Now look at the new Armageddon. Now back at the Dominix. Get it?
And removing hybrid bonus from Dominix is fine and well. Except of course it totally breaks the progression. Frigate droneboat is hybrids/drones. Destroyer drone boat is hybrids/drones. Cruiser drone boat is hybrids/drones. Battleship drone boat is drones and...drumroll please...projectiles! That's right, say it with me, pro-jec-tiles. Did you not learn with Myrmidon?
Myrms are often fit with autocannons because of falloff and cap... unless you want to do damage and can afford the cap then you use neutrons or pulse lasers as a better brawler or kiter.
Not sure why people think that projectiles are always used on unbonused turrets, because they aren't. Domis will use pulse, rails, neutrons, autocannons or just RR. They wont use 1400s or tachs because they don't have the grid for it. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 19:51:00 -
[2154] - Quote
Jovat wrote: It doesn't need that to be a powerful spider tanking battleship. Changes to dominix are good. People are freaking about about nothing. -12% DPS in the absolute worst case, but much more tank, more grid, and more applied drone dps.
The gank boat with 2000 dps now does 1750 dps, oh noes, but has nearly twice the tank.
Most other fits, the rails, lasers, projectiles, RR, neut, smartbomb, get more powerful, and more unexpected.
The problems with the domi is drone control range, combat drone speed, and no way to recall sentry drones outside of 2500 meters, and not enough drone bay for 3 flights of heavies and a flight of lights or mediums.
I'd like 425m drone bay, sentry drones that have a mwd to return to the drone bay, and a speed boost to combat drones, but I'm glad the split weapons system that got unused or underutilized on most fits is going away.
So you really brought up a laser domi... and smartbombing *droneboat* domi as valid arguments?
You seem to be looking at just numbers as a result of tiericide without thinking what it means for picking a ship to bring to battle, barring the RR domi which is actually somewhat interesting.
Why would anyone sit in station and fit up a Domi for anything other than sentry sniping given all the other ships that would fill the roles you listed above? Humor value?
Be practical if you want to be taken seriously. |
Django Askulf
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 19:52:00 -
[2155] - Quote
Not a single Gallante BS that can fit a full rack of 8 anymore with the proposed changes. Bonus's aside, it was nice to have that as an option. In my opinion. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 21:10:00 -
[2156] - Quote
Django Askulf wrote:Not a single Gallante BS that can fit a full rack of 8 anymore with the proposed changes. Bonus's aside, it was nice to have that as an option. In my opinion.
Would think ships would get roles, not an entire race. Dont like drones?......too bad..find another race to fly. Because the Catalyst, Thorax, Brutix, Talos, Megathron etc. are so drone dependent.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 22:06:00 -
[2157] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Why would anyone sit in station and fit up a Domi for anything other than sentry sniping given all the other ships that would fill the roles you listed above? Humor value?
Be practical if you want to be taken seriously. What does the domi won't be able to do the hybrid turret bonus allowed it to do ? |
Django Askulf
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 22:16:00 -
[2158] - Quote
Tom Guhl wrote:Django Askulf wrote:Not a single Gallante BS that can fit a full rack of 8 anymore with the proposed changes. Bonus's aside, it was nice to have that as an option. In my opinion.
Would think ships would get roles, not an entire race. Dont like drones?......too bad..find another race to fly. Because the Catalyst, Thorax, Brutix, Talos, Megathron etc. are so drone dependent.
Catalyst, Talos...full rack. Cheap gank, and PVP ships. As I fly. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 22:43:00 -
[2159] - Quote
Django Askulf wrote:Tom Guhl wrote:Django Askulf wrote:Not a single Gallante BS that can fit a full rack of 8 anymore with the proposed changes. Bonus's aside, it was nice to have that as an option. In my opinion.
Would think ships would get roles, not an entire race. Dont like drones?......too bad..find another race to fly. Because the Catalyst, Thorax, Brutix, Talos, Megathron etc. are so drone dependent. Catalyst, Talos...full rack. Cheap gank, and PVP ships. As I fly. So you've abandoned your point about Gallente being exclusively droneboats? K |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 22:59:00 -
[2160] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: What does the domi won't be able to do the hybrid turret bonus allowed it to do ?
I'm actually not hung up on the hybrid bonus, unlike some people. I don't like the new bonus to be so sentry-specific in the state sentries are now. The bonus to non-sentries is extremely minimal - which has already been covered to death in this topic. |
|
Gargantoi
Solar Wind Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 23:12:00 -
[2161] - Quote
stop complaining about the dominix most of you guys pvp wise fitted 5 heavy neutrons + 1 neut or 2 neuts +4 blasters in high slots anyway u didnt fit large blasters cuz there was no powergrid simple as that so u are just talking **** atm ..the problem with dominix that ccp isnt taking in consideration is that it will have 450 dps witouth drone damage upgrades ..that beeing said ...u should change the drone dmg bonus to 15%/20% / lvl OR make it able that domi can drop +1 drone / lvl ..do something like ..."special ability" can control +1 more drone / bs lvl ..so in conclusion it will have 900 dps with 10 ogre in lvl 5 skills ...everyone who fits a pvp dominix either remote rep fits it / neut fit no mater how u look at it it wont have drone dmg upgrades ..they will prefer BUFF over that so u should consider taking a dps boost on drones for the domi and by doing that u can remove some of the turrets ..like be able to use 3-4 turrets but anyway ..battleclinic is full of kills search domi's ccp ..they either RR or have heavy neutron blasters ..not large guns ...medium ones |
Jerick Ludhowe
J temp corp
428
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 23:15:00 -
[2162] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote: What does the domi won't be able to do the hybrid turret bonus allowed it to do ?
I'm actually not hung up on the hybrid bonus, unlike some people. I don't like the new bonus to be so sentry-specific in the state sentries are now. The bonus to non-sentries is extremely minimal - which has already been covered to death in this topic.
hp bonus or maybe a scram/disruptor range bonus.
|
Django Askulf
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 23:17:00 -
[2163] - Quote
Tom Guhl wrote: So you've abandoned your point about Gallente being exclusively droneboats? K
No, my point would be, that it shouldnt stop when it gets to Battleships. As these changes will make. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
142
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 23:25:00 -
[2164] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote: Why would anyone sit in station and fit up a Domi for anything other than sentry sniping given all the other ships that would fill the roles you listed above? Humor value?
Be practical if you want to be taken seriously.
Engagement flexibility.
Really think people are underestimating the drone bonus, combat drones donGÇÖt benefit from the optimal a great deal but the tracking bonus at 50% is the highest that has been given out. It will improve dps application against all ship types.
Well applied drone DPS, a few heavy neuts, hefty tank and a decent number of mids. It can do pretty much everything it did before better except perhaps shield gank DPS.
Micro Jump Drive, Microwarpdrive, scram, web, cap booster combination allows it to move between long and short range. Single DLA brings control range up near targeting range.
That said powergrid is tight compared to the Geddon even with the improvements and itGÇÖs increased reliance on Drones over even the Geddon deserves more drone bay.
CCP Rise wrote: I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.
This will be key to the success of the Domi and it is a bit of an unknown with many potential fixes.
Increased control range for sentries, in fact control range could vary for all drone types and could be another useful balancing factor.
Sentries able to move at 100-200m/s so that a sentry ship can keep aligned.
Sentries auto scoop if in range on warp.
There are now more fast frigates and cruisers as a whole got a speed buff, Light and medium Drone speed and tracking needs improving a lot.
There have been many other suggestions proposed. |
Giuseppe R Raimondo
Lowsey Pirates Inc. Capital Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 01:09:00 -
[2165] - Quote
How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 04:17:00 -
[2166] - Quote
Django Askulf wrote:Tom Guhl wrote: So you've abandoned your point about Gallente being exclusively droneboats? K
No, my point would be, that it shouldnt stop when it gets to Battleships. As these changes will make. Tell me how the new megathron is a droneboat, as a battleship with less than 125 bandwidth. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2627
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 05:50:00 -
[2167] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega
They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race.
Hope this helped you.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Andy Landen
Air Initiative Mercenaries
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 06:11:00 -
[2168] - Quote
When is this supposed to happen? |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 11:10:00 -
[2169] - Quote
Roime wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race. Hope this helped you. But in CCP's and the Megathron's defense, it has an extra 25mbit/s over the other Attack Battleships. Which is in keeping with Gallente tradition. Save the drones! |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 11:41:00 -
[2170] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega
you mean the same way they made the mega faster than the tempest.. while minmatar being the speed race? |
|
Racro Arifistan
13th Black Templars Heavy fleet The Knights Templar.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 13:33:00 -
[2171] - Quote
Shubs wrote:for the love of god, leave the megathron alone, the changes on it are terribad
yeah the mega does well with its damge bouns and tracking. if its going to gte a RoF bonus it should be a bit stronger to compensate for its loss of damge. but overall the damage bonus is much better. to get the damge you want means that you have to go further into gunnery even with high ammounts of sp in large hybrids. it still takes 1 or 2 mag stabs to breach 1000 dps.
All in all the mega should be left alone. it would be pointless to use/have one if it dosnt have its damage bonus. Fleet Admiral Racro |
Giuseppe R Raimondo
Lowsey Pirates Inc. Capital Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 13:34:00 -
[2172] - Quote
Roime wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race. Hope this helped you.
Let me quote the main wepsite.
Quote: Drone Masters
The Gallente Federation have taken drones - for the other empires something of an after-thought or secondary weapon system at best - and placed them at the heart of their ship design philosophy. The vast majority of Gallente ships have drone capability, often beyond that of comparable designs in the other empires, and the Federation has developed a large array of dedicated drone carriers that use these robotic gunships as their primary weapon system. While being known for their heavy use of drones, the Gallente have not neglected raw firepower and many of their designs are optimized for the blaster family of short-range, high-damage hybrid turrets. While the Gallente share hybrid turret technology with their Caldari State enemies, due to a shared history, their preference in defense is for strongly-armored designs. The Gallente approach to electronic warfare also differs notably from others and relies on dampening enemy sensors, reducing their effective range and ability to lock onto targets. |
Souverainiste
Consuela's Corporation
45
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:15:00 -
[2173] - Quote
since the Domi is a combat drone boat (dmg application), why not change the drone HP bonus for a drone damage bonus? Or remove tracking and gimme ma bonuses?
Would it be worth reconsidering it? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
191
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:34:00 -
[2174] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:Roime wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race. Hope this helped you. Let me quote the main wepsite. Quote: Drone Masters
The Gallente Federation have taken drones - for the other empires something of an after-thought or secondary weapon system at best - and placed them at the heart of their ship design philosophy. The vast majority of Gallente ships have drone capability, often beyond that of comparable designs in the other empires, and the Federation has developed a large array of dedicated drone carriers that use these robotic gunships as their primary weapon system. While being known for their heavy use of drones, the Gallente have not neglected raw firepower and many of their designs are optimized for the blaster family of short-range, high-damage hybrid turrets. While the Gallente share hybrid turret technology with their Caldari State enemies, due to a shared history, their preference in defense is for strongly-armored designs. The Gallente approach to electronic warfare also differs notably from others and relies on dampening enemy sensors, reducing their effective range and ability to lock onto targets.
Thansk for remembering me for that website.
Want to add entry of minmatar: Minmatar ship designs typically emphasize speed and firepower, combining agile ship designs with projectile weapon armaments.
SPEED... ok.. now why minmatar are not the agile of speedy race anymore (That has been given to gallente and to caldari (yes caldari are more agile) |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
147
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:47:00 -
[2175] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:Roime wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race. Hope this helped you. Let me quote the main wepsite. Quote: Drone Masters
The Gallente Federation have taken drones - for the other empires something of an after-thought or secondary weapon system at best - and placed them at the heart of their ship design philosophy. The vast majority of Gallente ships have drone capability, often beyond that of comparable designs in the other empires, and the Federation has developed a large array of dedicated drone carriers that use these robotic gunships as their primary weapon system. While being known for their heavy use of drones, the Gallente have not neglected raw firepower and many of their designs are optimized for the blaster family of short-range, high-damage hybrid turrets. While the Gallente share hybrid turret technology with their Caldari State enemies, due to a shared history, their preference in defense is for strongly-armored designs. The Gallente approach to electronic warfare also differs notably from others and relies on dampening enemy sensors, reducing their effective range and ability to lock onto targets. Thansk for remembering me for that website. Want to add entry of minmatar: Minmatar ship designs typically emphasize speed and firepower, combining agile ship designs with projectile weapon armaments. SPEED... ok.. now why minmatar are not the agile of speedy race anymore (That has been given to gallente and to caldari (yes caldari are more agile)
Gallente, because they have to get CLOSER than minmatar have to to apply damage, as for caldari, would you rather use a vagabond or Cerberus as a tackler in a fleet?. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:55:00 -
[2176] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:SPEED... ok.. now why minmatar are not the agile of speedy race anymore (That has been given to gallente and to caldari (yes caldari are more agile) Because gallente whined long and loud enough for their ship speed to reach minmatar average level. Yet, minmatar always have the fastest and agilest (not sure about this word...) hull of each line.
But yeah, gallente cries did a good job in this thread to make their BS "really effective". |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
191
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:28:00 -
[2177] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:SPEED... ok.. now why minmatar are not the agile of speedy race anymore (That has been given to gallente and to caldari (yes caldari are more agile) Because gallente whined long and loud enough for their ship speed to reach minmatar average level. Yet, minmatar always have the fastest and agilest (not sure about this word...) hull of each line. But yeah, gallente cries did a good job in this thread to make their BS "really effective".
Not true. The minmatar do not have the most agile ship in ANY line anymore. In fact they now always are behind both gallente AND caldari. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
191
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:33:00 -
[2178] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:
Gallente, because they have to get CLOSER than minmatar have to to apply damage, as for caldari, would you rather use a vagabond or Cerberus as a tackler in a fleet?.
That is an aburdity still widespread.
Gallente with null do more damage than AC with barrage up to half of barrage falloff.. that means .. up to any level where peopel sconsidere effective range gallente deal more damage. Also gallente have droens .. much more droens for better damage projection. The "gallente needs to get closer" its a fallacy!!! Its only truth wehen you compare blaster ships with ac ships that field a faloff bonus.
And that falloff bonus is there for what? For KITING.. Minamtar need to kite much more than gallente need to get UP and close.. and kiting needs more of speed than gettign to the face. To get to the face you can use warp ins from other ships.. minmatar need SPEED.
So stop with this utter lie about gallente special needs.
|
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:44:00 -
[2179] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote: Engagement flexibility.
Yeah, it is so much more flexible than the current Domi. Flexible, as in "it is bad no matter how I fit it". Just compare it with Geddon, or even Typhoon or Scorp.
Alticus C Bear wrote:Really think people are underestimating the drone bonus, combat drones donGÇÖt benefit from the optimal a great deal but the tracking bonus at 50% is the highest that has been given out. It will improve dps application against all ship types.
Ummm... LOL?
If my drones are shooting at a slow ship, they orbit. Drones do not orbit faster than they can track. They used to be able to do that in the past, but not anymore. Tracking bonus is absolutely, positively, one hundred eleventy percent IRRELEVANT to non-sentry drones.
If my drones attempt to fight a fast ship, they kite. This is where the optimal range bonus MAY come into play. However, as the range on non-sentry drones is rather pitiful, this bonus will not have any meaning for non-sentries most of the time.
Alticus C Bear wrote:Well applied drone DPS, a few heavy neuts, hefty tank and a decent number of mids. It can do pretty much everything it did before better except perhaps shield gank DPS.
You will get exactly the same non-sentry DPS (see above). Significantly less gun DPS, because of lost bonus and increased mass. Better tank, but than all BS tanks got buffed. And Geddon still has more armor.
You lost the ability to do any gank fits. If you load non-sentry drones, you are only utilizing one of the ship's bonuses (see above). Do you fit projectiles on your Abaddon now? I think not, because you want to use the ship's bonuses.
The new Domi bonus is relevant to sentries only.
To put it even more in perspective, even long-range Caldari ships can fit short-range weapons, such as HAMs or blasters, and still get benefit of the corresponding bonus (range, tracking, etc). For the new Domi, it is either sentries, or nothing. And sentries are one of the more niche weapons systems in game.
Alticus C Bear wrote:Micro Jump Drive, Microwarpdrive, scram, web, cap booster combination allows it to move between long and short range. Single DLA brings control range up near targeting range.
No, it is either long-range with sentries, or short range with non-sentries. What do you think will happen if I drop sentries and MJD?
Alticus C Bear wrote:That said powergrid is tight compared to the Geddon even with the improvements and itGÇÖs increased reliance on Drones over even the Geddon deserves more drone bay.
The new Geddon is OP. But that is not a topic for this thread.
Some of the drone changes/ideas that you mention might work.
Thing is, they are not scheduled for Odyssey. There is no thread for them. It is much harder to do this than swapping ship bonuses around.
Unless drone mechanics is thoroughly overhauled, the new Domi comes out as comparatively underpowered, inconsistent, and generally boring ship to fly.
And I have not seen any good explanation as to what is wrong with the old Domi, except "every race gets one attack and two combat BS". Except they really don't. Caldari have a disruption BS. Amarr have a disruption/attack hybrid (new Geddon). And Gallente are getting nerfed. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:01:00 -
[2180] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Not true. The minmatar do not have the most agile ship in ANY line anymore. In fact they now always are behind both gallente AND caldari. No. The Typhoon will be more agile and faster than any other BS, without exception.
The Stabber have the same place : more faster than any other T1 cruiser ; not sure about agility.
Same for the Cyclone.
Their shpis are not ALL faster and more agile, but they always have the speedy option to the point this speedy option can often be considered as a lower class ship with oversized weapons and tank. |
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:18:00 -
[2181] - Quote
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:If my drones are shooting at a slow ship, they orbit. Drones do not orbit faster than they can track. They used to be able to do that in the past, but not anymore. Tracking bonus is absolutely, positively, one hundred eleventy percent IRRELEVANT to non-sentry drones.
If my drones attempt to fight a fast ship, they kite. This is where the optimal range bonus MAY come into play. However, as the range on non-sentry drones is rather pitiful, this bonus will not have any meaning for non-sentries most of the time.
That is wrong. Orbit speed of drones is faster than their tracking speed (hint : when orbit speed = tracking speed, you do 40% dps). The only case where they track well is the case of heavy drones shooting battleship, because they have the same signature resolution than medium drones. |
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute Monkeys with Guns.
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:19:00 -
[2182] - Quote
Lack of utility high for a Megathron. Where do we put our RR? |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:21:00 -
[2183] - Quote
Arth Lawing wrote:Lack of utility high for a Megathron. Where do we put our RR? On the Hyperion. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 18:32:00 -
[2184] - Quote
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote: Some of the drone changes/ideas that you mention might work.
Thing is, they are not scheduled for Odyssey. There is no thread for them. It is much harder to do this than swapping ship bonuses around.
Unless drone mechanics is thoroughly overhauled, the new Domi comes out as comparatively underpowered, inconsistent, and generally boring ship to fly.
And I have not seen any good explanation as to what is wrong with the old Domi, except "every race gets one attack and two combat BS". Except they really don't. Caldari have a disruption BS. Amarr have a disruption/attack hybrid (new Geddon). And Gallente are getting nerfed.
Thought exercise: how could this be spun as a good thing?
Dominix receives changes that could make it a really good and special droneboat when they revamp drones, only they haven't revamped drones so it sucks. Dominix fans and Gallente in general use the Dominix as a rallying cry for CCP getting off their asses and hurry up with the drone rework; the ship needs the drones that are supposed to make it good! Popular outcry makes CCP devote actual time and energy to getting the rework out in a more timely fashion. The guy behind the Dominix rework smiles. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2635
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 21:18:00 -
[2185] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:Roime wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race. Hope this helped you. Let me quote the main wepsite. Quote: Drone Masters
The Gallente Federation have taken drones - for the other empires something of an after-thought or secondary weapon system at best - and placed them at the heart of their ship design philosophy. The vast majority of Gallente ships have drone capability, often beyond that of comparable designs in the other empires, and the Federation has developed a large array of dedicated drone carriers that use these robotic gunships as their primary weapon system. While being known for their heavy use of drones, the Gallente have not neglected raw firepower and many of their designs are optimized for the blaster family of short-range, high-damage hybrid turrets. While the Gallente share hybrid turret technology with their Caldari State enemies, due to a shared history, their preference in defense is for strongly-armored designs. The Gallente approach to electronic warfare also differs notably from others and relies on dampening enemy sensors, reducing their effective range and ability to lock onto targets.
Well, that website has been bullshit then for years.
Of the current subcap lineup, only two ships have a drone damage bonus instead of hybrid damage bonus. Domi will be third, Tristan is the oddball and has no damage bonus at all. Myrmidon does 2/3 of damage with Ogres, with medium drones it's 1/2. Ishtar does most of it's damage with drones, but still has hybrid damage bonus.
Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 21:44:00 -
[2186] - Quote
Roime wrote:Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships. Yet, almost all of their ships have a significant drone bay, eventhough the difference with other races have been reduced by the tiericide. But as a gallente pilot, you can't really discard drones, whatever the ship you fly. |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 22:57:00 -
[2187] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:If my drones are shooting at a slow ship, they orbit. Drones do not orbit faster than they can track. They used to be able to do that in the past, but not anymore. Tracking bonus is absolutely, positively, one hundred eleventy percent IRRELEVANT to non-sentry drones.
If my drones attempt to fight a fast ship, they kite. This is where the optimal range bonus MAY come into play. However, as the range on non-sentry drones is rather pitiful, this bonus will not have any meaning for non-sentries most of the time.
That is wrong. Orbit speed of drones is faster than their tracking speed (hint : when orbit speed = tracking speed, you do 40% dps). The only case where they track well is the case of heavy drones shooting battleship, because they have the same signature resolution than medium drones.
No, buddy, you are absolutely wrong (and regarding that 40% number, it is just pure nonsense). Your latest statement tells me that you don't understand the difference between sig resolution issues and tracking issues.
Drones orbit a stationary object at fixed linear velocity. That velocity is fixed (by design / in game client code) to a value that allows the drone to *always* track the target. In other words, if your drone just missed, it missed because of sig radius mismatch, or because of being out of optimal range.
The only situation where a non-sentry drone will miss due to tracking is if the intended target is orbiting the drone. For instance, I have webbed someone's Ogre II with a 90% web on my Vigilant, and my friend in a Taranis is orbiting the said Ogre II at 1000m. The Ogre II won't track the Taranis and will miss.
Of course, the example above is contrived and absolutely hypothetical. When was the last time you orbited someone's drone? Thought so.
Note that there is NO skill in game that affects drone orbit velocity. There is also no skill that affects drone tracking.
Drone Navigation was fixed for good many patches ago to affect only the drone MWD velocity. In other words, your drones will get to target faster if you learn Drone Navigation. They will still orbit at exactly the same velocity as if you did not learn the skill. Before this skill was finally fixed for good, people used to recommend learning Drone Shaprshooting to at least the same level (it did help a bit).
Thus, tracking is IRRELEVANT to non-sentries. Unless you want to shoot Taranises and Maledictions that orbit your drones. I always dreamed of doing this with my Domi, and now I can!
PS: Don't try killing inties with Ogre IIs. They will track perfectly, but will miss badly. Because of sig radius. |
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Az'Suran Nation
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 22:59:00 -
[2188] - Quote
Tom Guhl wrote:Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote: Some of the drone changes/ideas that you mention might work.
Thing is, they are not scheduled for Odyssey. There is no thread for them. It is much harder to do this than swapping ship bonuses around.
Unless drone mechanics is thoroughly overhauled, the new Domi comes out as comparatively underpowered, inconsistent, and generally boring ship to fly.
And I have not seen any good explanation as to what is wrong with the old Domi, except "every race gets one attack and two combat BS". Except they really don't. Caldari have a disruption BS. Amarr have a disruption/attack hybrid (new Geddon). And Gallente are getting nerfed.
Thought exercise: how could this be spun as a good thing? Dominix receives changes that could make it a really good and special droneboat when they revamp drones, only they haven't revamped drones so it sucks. Dominix fans and Gallente in general use the Dominix as a rallying cry for CCP getting off their asses and hurry up with the drone rework; the ship needs the drones that are supposed to make it good! Popular outcry makes CCP devote actual time and energy to getting the rework out in a more timely fashion. The guy behind the Dominix rework smiles.
Thanks for the optimism
I really wish that itl happens this way, but I am not holding my breath. Fixing drone mechanics will take a major effort, and I just don't see that happening soon. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 23:23:00 -
[2189] - Quote
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:No, buddy, you are absolutely wrong (and regarding that 40% number, it is just pure nonsense). Your latest statement tells me that you don't understand the difference between sig resolution issues and tracking issues.
Drones orbit a stationary object at fixed linear velocity. That velocity is fixed (by design / in game client code) to a value that allows the drone to *always* track the target. In other words, if your drone just missed, it missed because of sig radius mismatch, or because of being out of optimal range.
The only situation where a non-sentry drone will miss due to tracking is if the intended target is orbiting the drone. For instance, I have webbed someone's Ogre II with a 90% web on my Vigilant, and my friend in a Taranis is orbiting the said Ogre II at 1000m. The Ogre II won't track the Taranis and will miss.
Of course, the example above is contrived and absolutely hypothetical. When was the last time you orbited someone's drone? Thought so.
Note that there is NO skill in game that affects drone orbit velocity. There is also no skill that affects drone tracking.
Drone Navigation was fixed for good many patches ago to affect only the drone MWD velocity. In other words, your drones will get to target faster if you learn Drone Navigation. They will still orbit at exactly the same velocity as if you did not learn the skill. Before this skill was finally fixed for good, people used to recommend learning Drone Shaprshooting to at least the same level (it did help a bit).
Thus, tracking is IRRELEVANT to non-sentries. Unless you want to shoot Taranises and Maledictions that orbit your drones. I always dreamed of doing this with my Domi, and now I can!
PS: Don't try killing inties with Ogre IIs. They will track perfectly, but will miss badly. Because of sig radius. I suggest you to have a look at the tracking formula and how it works, because you clearly don't know. Especially the graph at the bottom will show you where the 40% comes from.
So unless drones don't use the tracking formula (but I would wonder why they have tracking then), you are wrong. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
421
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 01:01:00 -
[2190] - Quote
CCP RISE: Imagine an Hiperion Using 6 Plasma Stream Guns https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=228586&find=unread Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
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Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 04:23:00 -
[2191] - Quote
Roime wrote:Of the current subcap lineup, only two ships have a drone damage bonus instead of hybrid damage bonus. Domi will be third, Tristan is the oddball and has no damage bonus at all. Myrmidon does 2/3 of damage with Ogres, with medium drones it's 1/2. Ishtar does most of it's damage with drones, but still has hybrid damage bonus.
Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships. 2 Gallente T1 ships with drone damage bonus and gun damage bonus: Dominix, Vexor. 1 Gallente T1 ship with drone damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus: Algos. 1 Gallente T1 ship with drone damage bonus and no gun bonus: Myrmidon. 0 Gallente T1 ships with drone non-damage bonus and gun damage bonus. 1 Gallente T1 ship with drone non-damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus: Tristan
3 Gallente T2 ships with drone damage bonus and gun damage bonus: Sin, Ishtar, Helios (thermal only) 0 Gallente T2 ships with drone damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus. 0 Gallente T2 ships with drone damage bonus and no gun bonus. 1 Gallente T2 ship with drone non-damage bonus and gun damage bonus: Ishkur 0 Gallente T2 ships with drone non-damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus.
(Velator not counted; has drone damage and gun damage bonuses but it's a rookie ship. Exequror and Oneiros not counted; they have a drone bonus but it is logistics, not offensively related. Eos not counted; it has a drone bay bonus but that is not directly combat related.)
That's ... actually kind of depressing, considering that the Helios drone bonus is kind of a joke and the black-ops battleship isn't really considered a combat class of vessel, even though it technically can. Two "real" T2 drone ships for the Gallente. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 06:24:00 -
[2192] - Quote
The fact that Creo*Dron is a T2 manufacturer pretty much proves the point you're trying to make without a long list. Haha.
Creo*Dron = Drones (Gallente only T2 specializations) Duvolle Labs = Blasters Roden shipyards = Useless bonuses and fittings (Oops!) Save the drones! |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 06:37:00 -
[2193] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:The fact that Creo*Dron is a T2 manufacturer pretty much proves the point you're trying to make without a long list. Haha.
Creo*Dron = Drones (Gallente only T2 specializations) Duvolle Labs = Blasters Roden shipyards = Useless bonuses and fittings (Oops!) Yeah, I forgot to add this: "On the other hand, I think the Amarr Curse is the ONLY non-Gallente T2 ship with drone bonuses." |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
446
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 07:11:00 -
[2194] - Quote
Tom Guhl wrote:Yeah, I forgot to add this: "On the other hand, I think the Amarr Curse is the ONLY non-Gallente T2 ship with drone bonuses." Because Pilgrim isn't a real ship But yeah, we get the idea. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2635
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 07:17:00 -
[2195] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Roime wrote:Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships. Yet, almost all of their ships have a significant drone bay, eventhough the difference with other races have been reduced by the tiericide. But as a gallente pilot, you can't really discard drones, whatever the ship you fly.
No, I'm certainly not discounting drones, they are awesome, but the primary weapons of Gallente are blasters.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 08:20:00 -
[2196] - Quote
Roime wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Roime wrote:Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships. Yet, almost all of their ships have a significant drone bay, eventhough the difference with other races have been reduced by the tiericide. But as a gallente pilot, you can't really discard drones, whatever the ship you fly. No, I'm certainly not discounting drones, they are awesome, but the primary weapons of Gallente are blasters. Blasters and drones.
Just like Caldari had Railguns and Missiles. Save the drones! |
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 11:05:00 -
[2197] - Quote
New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.
But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor). And this is just strange. |
Perihelion Olenard
153
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 11:14:00 -
[2198] - Quote
Bereza Mia wrote:New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.
But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor). And this is just strange. The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. I plan to use blasters for the damage. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 11:45:00 -
[2199] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Bereza Mia wrote:New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.
But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor). And this is just strange. The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage. Uh, no, the Dominix does not get launchers like the Armageddon does. Save the drones! |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
205
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 13:47:00 -
[2200] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:Bereza Mia wrote:New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.
But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor). And this is just strange. The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage. Uh, no, the Dominix does not get launchers like the Armageddon does.
Yet blasters still do far more damage. And if you are not active tanking.. there is no much use for that capacitor that you plan to save on the projectiles... |
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Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 14:06:00 -
[2201] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote: The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage.
Autocannons don't require capacitor, can cause any damage type, and have not much less dps then blasters. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 14:07:00 -
[2202] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:ExAstra wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:Bereza Mia wrote:New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.
But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor). And this is just strange. The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage. Uh, no, the Dominix does not get launchers like the Armageddon does. Yet blasters still do far more damage. And if you are not active tanking.. there is no much use for that capacitor that you plan to save on the projectiles... 0% of my post was talking about whether blasters or capless weapons were better. I was just informing Olenard that no, the Dominix does not get to use missiles. Save the drones! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
309
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 14:13:00 -
[2203] - Quote
Bereza Mia wrote: and have not much less dps then blasters. They do have much less dps than blasters, by a large margin.
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 15:03:00 -
[2204] - Quote
You really that sure?
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote: Tracking bonus is absolutely, positively, one hundred eleventy percent IRRELEVANT to non-sentry drones.
Most peopleGÇÖs complaints have been that the optimal bonus would have very little impact on normal combat drones not the tracking bonus. I would also find it strange if your supposition regarding the tracking bonus being useless for non sentry drones is true, that CCP has given out tracking bonuses to the Tristan and Navy Vexor neither of which seems entirely based around sentry drones.
Having tested the Domi on Singularity and Duality and having analysed the combat logs I am happy that within the game the tracking plus optimal bonus results in more applied damage by Ogres regardless of however Drone tracking allegedly applies.
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote: You lost the ability to do any gank fits.
Shield Gank fits can still put out over 1500dps, and can still hit 1100dps with Blasters and a hefty armour tank.
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote: No, it is either long-range with sentries, or short range with non-sentries. What do you think will happen if I drop sentries and MJD?
My sentries keep firing and I end up nearer to my target and now far away from my destructible DPS source, if you want to switch flights then disconnect from them and deploy heavies, you can reconnect to them if needed. Or you scoop and drop again in a new location; these are tactical choices and are far from dull.
Do I think it has reached its full potential? No. But it is drones that need tweaking at this point more than the Domi.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2640
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 16:12:00 -
[2205] - Quote
^ Bear alt there speaks the truth
lol @ Gardes being long range weapons
They are better at short range than autos, pulses and non-tracking bonused blasters.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
113
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 16:16:00 -
[2206] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote: No, it is either long-range with sentries, or short range with non-sentries. What do you think will happen if I drop sentries and MJD?
My sentries keep firing May I note you, that MJD makes a 100km leap? You need 3 DLA with perfect skills to cover this gap, or your sentries will just hang there doing nothing. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
309
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 16:24:00 -
[2207] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:May I note you, that MJD makes a 100km leap? You need 3 DLA with perfect skills to cover this gap, or your sentries will just hang there doing nothing. Are you sure ? I heard that the distance which matter is the one between your ship and the target ; the drones or sentries can be wherever you want. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2640
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 17:00:00 -
[2208] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:May I note you, that MJD makes a 100km leap? You need 3 DLA with perfect skills to cover this gap, or your sentries will just hang there doing nothing. Are you sure ? I heard that the distance which matter is the one between your ship and the target ; the drones or sentries can be wherever you want.
Yep, it's from your ship to target.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
90
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 17:05:00 -
[2209] - Quote
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:If my drones are shooting at a slow ship, they orbit. Drones do not orbit faster than they can track. They used to be able to do that in the past, but not anymore. Tracking bonus is absolutely, positively, one hundred eleventy percent IRRELEVANT to non-sentry drones.
If my drones attempt to fight a fast ship, they kite. This is where the optimal range bonus MAY come into play. However, as the range on non-sentry drones is rather pitiful, this bonus will not have any meaning for non-sentries most of the time.
That is wrong. Orbit speed of drones is faster than their tracking speed (hint : when orbit speed = tracking speed, you do 40% dps). The only case where they track well is the case of heavy drones shooting battleship, because they have the same signature resolution than medium drones. No, buddy, you are absolutely wrong (and regarding that 40% number, it is just pure nonsense). Your latest statement tells me that you don't understand the difference between sig resolution issues and tracking issues. Drones orbit a stationary object at fixed linear velocity. That velocity is fixed (by design / in game client code) to a value that allows the drone to *always* track the target. In other words, if your drone just missed, it missed because of sig radius mismatch, or because of being out of optimal range. The only situation where a non-sentry drone will miss due to tracking is if the intended target is orbiting the drone. For instance, I have webbed someone's Ogre II with a 90% web on my Vigilant, and my friend in a Taranis is orbiting the said Ogre II at 1000m. The Ogre II won't track the Taranis and will miss. Of course, the example above is contrived and absolutely hypothetical. When was the last time you orbited someone's drone? Thought so. Note that there is NO skill in game that affects drone orbit velocity. There is also no skill that affects drone tracking. Drone Navigation was fixed for good many patches ago to affect only the drone MWD velocity. In other words, your drones will get to target faster if you learn Drone Navigation. They will still orbit at exactly the same velocity as if you did not learn the skill. Before this skill was finally fixed for good, people used to recommend learning Drone Shaprshooting to at least the same level (it did help a bit). Thus, tracking is IRRELEVANT to non-sentries. Unless you want to shoot Taranises and Maledictions that orbit your drones. I always dreamed of doing this with my Domi, and now I can! PS: Don't try killing inties with Ogre IIs. They will track perfectly, but will miss badly. Because of sig radius. My friend, you really need to acquaint yourself with the game mechanics.
Ogre II's, 125m sig resolution, will do approximately ~30% reduced damage to a stationary cruiser, 125m sig radius, due to their 300 m/sec orbit speed.
The tracking bonus on the Dominix is a huge change for non-sentry drones, but I guess too many people here are not sufficiently au fait with numbers to realise it.
That being said, CCP really really need to sort the drone system out, the rrubbish GÇ£always try to orbitGÇ¥ mechanics need to go GÇô at the bare minimum add options to GÇÿcut propulsionGÇÖ,GÇÖ keep at range X/Y/ZGÇÖ, GÇÿapproachGÇÖ e.t.c...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 17:08:00 -
[2210] - Quote
Hey CCP Rise i just watched the stream from fanfest where u talked about the battleship changes in front of the big screen ..... you seemed a tad bit nervous as if you could feel the eyes of the many broken hearted gallente battleships pilots that want to rage hehe.
dont take it bad man ... i can tell that you are trying to do a good job and i like all your changes except the gallente ones but 3/4 aint bad and gallente BS were bad anyway so meh .... hehe. i will ask you to consider this as a long time domi pilot(mainly navy domi now)
A good trade off and compromise for the many upset domi pilots that dont like the change .... leave the faction domi as it is ... besides its a faction ship and a gallente pilot still needs some incentive to train large railguns spec ... almost all hype's and megas are blaster boats and will never be used with railguns in a fleet doctrine or pvp scenario. without the faction domi retaining the hybrid bonus there will be almost 0 incentive to train large t2 railguns for a gallente pilot. caldari will use them but not gallente.
so please CCP Rise ... leave the faction domi as it is. you will have a fallback strategy to point to if people dont like the reguler dominix change ... they can get a faction domi. and we can see how it plays out in the long run. also you are giving gallente pilots more incentive to train large railgun spec. most people that use hype and mega just train the blasters spec. we need at least 1 gallente ship that says you definatly want large railgun spec to use me properly and the faction dominix has to be it. |
|
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:10:00 -
[2211] - Quote
No actually if the drone tracking bonus is really that much of a difference for heavies it probably compensates quite adequately for the loss in blaster damage. And as for the PVE guys, the powergrid bonus should let them fit bigger guns, and their Gardes will enjoy the extra range as well as tracking. |
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:16:00 -
[2212] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:A good trade off and compromise for the many upset domi pilots that dont like the change .... leave the faction domi as it is ... besides its a faction ship and a gallente pilot still needs some incentive to train large railguns spec ... almost all hype's and megas are blaster boats and will never be used with railguns in a fleet doctrine or pvp scenario. without the faction domi retaining the hybrid bonus there will be almost 0 incentive to train large t2 railguns for a gallente pilot. caldari will use them but not gallente. Except, you know, powergrid restrictions and applied DPS keeping you from putting on tachyons and arties having crappy dps, making large rails often the best weapon for the job in many cases. Other than that zero incentive.
Quote:so please CCP Rise ... leave the faction domi as it is. you will have a fallback strategy to point to if people dont like the reguler dominix change ... they can get a faction domi. and we can see how it plays out in the long run. also you are giving gallente pilots more incentive to train large railgun spec. most people that use hype and mega just train the blasters spec. we need at least 1 gallente ship that says you definatly want large railgun spec to use me properly and the faction dominix has to be it.
As someone who flies a faction domi regularly, I'd much rather have the drone tracking bonus than the hybrid bonus. |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:40:00 -
[2213] - Quote
Jovat wrote:Fade Azura wrote:A good trade off and compromise for the many upset domi pilots that dont like the change .... leave the faction domi as it is ... besides its a faction ship and a gallente pilot still needs some incentive to train large railguns spec ... almost all hype's and megas are blaster boats and will never be used with railguns in a fleet doctrine or pvp scenario. without the faction domi retaining the hybrid bonus there will be almost 0 incentive to train large t2 railguns for a gallente pilot. caldari will use them but not gallente. Except, you know, powergrid restrictions and applied DPS keeping you from putting on tachyons and arties having crappy dps, making large rails often the best weapon for the job in many cases. Other than that zero incentive. Quote:so please CCP Rise ... leave the faction domi as it is. you will have a fallback strategy to point to if people dont like the reguler dominix change ... they can get a faction domi. and we can see how it plays out in the long run. also you are giving gallente pilots more incentive to train large railgun spec. most people that use hype and mega just train the blasters spec. we need at least 1 gallente ship that says you definatly want large railgun spec to use me properly and the faction dominix has to be it. As someone who flies a faction domi regularly, I'd much rather have the drone tracking bonus than the hybrid bonus.
You may be flying a faction Domi on a diffrent character u mean. well we cant always get what we want obviously ... but this way its half and half .. you like the tracking bonus to drones? fine fly a domi .... ill stay in the navy domi. its not perfect .. but its the best compromise .. we dont all get exactly what we want but dont get tottaly shafted either. and he already alluded to using the faction ships as the ones to retain the double damage bonuses anyway in the typhoon thread when he said this.
While we are agreed that this version looks extremely fun and powerful, we also expect this to be sensitive for many players, especially those have heavily invested in making use of all three weapons platforms. If youGÇÖre one of those that has cherished access to projectiles, missiles, and drones, we would encourage you to remember that the Navy battleships, which will get looked at soon, will likely be able to fill some spaces created by the tech 1 rebalance |
Mata Hotaki
Guardians Of The Sky
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 19:20:00 -
[2214] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:My friend, you really need to acquaint yourself with the game mechanics.
Ogre II's, 125m sig resolution, will do approximately ~30% reduced damage to a stationary cruiser, 125m sig radius, at their 1250m optimal, due to their 300 m/sec orbit speed.
The tracking bonus on the Dominix is a huge change for non-sentry drones, but I guess too many people here are not sufficiently au fait with numbers to realise it.
That being said, CCP really really need to sort the drone system out, the rubbish GÇ£always try to orbitGÇ¥ mechanics need to go GÇô at the bare minimum add options to GÇÿcut propulsionGÇÖ,GÇÖ keep at range X/Y/ZGÇÖ, GÇÿapproachGÇÖ e.t.c...
I was also always under the impression that drones would not *automatically* orbit at such a speed that they don't do full damage.
Guess I was wrong.
This mechanics is absolute rubbish, and I hope CCP will look at it soon. Then the new Domi won't be as bad as I thought it will be... |
Perihelion Olenard
153
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 20:36:00 -
[2215] - Quote
Bereza Mia wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote: The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage.
Autocannons don't require capacitor, can cause any damage type, and have not much less dps then blasters. The same can be said for missile systems on the 'geddon. I'm just pointing out that autocannons are not the only viable weapon platform on a non-bonused ship. As the 'geddon and domi' are both combat battleships I'll be in people's faces and using blasters. The last couple slots on the 'geddon I'll use as neuts. While I won't shoot rainbows with selectable damage I'll be doing a good amount more than autocannons. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
365
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 21:17:00 -
[2216] - Quote
I am still very worried about the sheer dps potential coming from that Megathron without any significant weakness in durabiluty with 8 lowslots and only 500 less armor hitpoints than the Amarr Apocalypse battleship.
The Megathron in the current condition can pack a serious punch... Megathron punch so hard people rarely get to deploy their set of heavy drones in a fight before their target is down.
Currently I find the Megathron balanced by the choice of having 3 plates + 1 damage mod or 2 plates + 2 damage mods.
Losing some drone power and a hi-slot which might have held a heavy neutralizer is a small price to pay for getting MORE gun dps and a lowslot for an extra plate or damage mod - or nanofiber/tracking enhancer/eccm whatever... This is a huge buff to one of the ships that didn't really need it - And the gameplay doesn't get changed at all.
I liked the initial proposal much better that suggested a role change - I like a Megathron with 7/5/7 layout a lot. Then I don't mind the ship having a RoF bonus and only 75-100 drone bay...
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Jerick Ludhowe
J temp corp
429
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 03:38:00 -
[2217] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:I am still very worried about the sheer dps potential coming from that Megathron without any significant weakness in durabiluty with 8 lowslots and only 500 less armor hitpoints than the Amarr Apocalypse battleship.
The Megathron in the current condition can pack a serious punch... Megathron punch so hard people rarely get to deploy their set of heavy drones in a fight before their target is down.
Currently I find the Megathron balanced by the choice of having 3 plates + 1 damage mod or 2 plates + 2 damage mods.
Losing some drone power and a hi-slot which might have held a heavy neutralizer is a small price to pay for getting MORE gun dps and a lowslot for an extra plate or damage mod - or nanofiber/tracking enhancer/eccm whatever... This is a huge buff to one of the ships that didn't really need it - And the gameplay doesn't get changed at all.
I liked the initial proposal much better that suggested a role change - I like a Megathron with 7/5/7 layout a lot. Then I don't mind the ship having a RoF bonus and only 75-100 drone bay...
I've found that a mega fit with 2x plates and 3x mag stabs is beating pretty much any non active tanked bs in a brawl. While this may be rather expected, the victories are coming out rather lop sided.
I've been testing them on duality whenever people are on... Runing a 3% rof implant and perfect lvl 5 skills i'm getting just under 1600 dps overheated, Thats quite a bit more than the dual plated dual mfs mega of the past. Especially considering it's got just about the same ehp and is slightly more mobile.
The vast majority of complaints about the mega being cap "unstable" are pretty much unfounded. A single heavy cap injector can easily, and I say easily keep your guns running and your tackle active even with 2x heavy neuts on you. I don't see the problem.
While I don't see a real issue with the way this works as the megathron has many counters and it's close range dps does not scale very well in medium to large scale gangs... It does most certainly kick ass at the moment, regardless of what the whiners who have not tested it here say. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
92
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:13:00 -
[2218] - Quote
That is, has been, always should be, the point of the Megathron - *if* it gets on top of you, you are going to get ripped to pieces.
What is really required, is for the 'Jaws' theme music to play when a blasterhron is on grid with you...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:20:00 -
[2219] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:What is really required, is for the 'Jaws' theme music to play when a blasterhron is on grid with you... 10/10 most important feature missing from EVE. CCP must put this on high priority. Save the drones! |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2493
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:39:00 -
[2220] - Quote
You know, CCP, I had some pretty strong opinions on Gallente battleships and the changes didn't sit well with me, so I decided that instead of getting properly upset I'd give it a couple of weeks and then come back, hoping that when things had had some time to settle, things would get better.
They have not gotten better and I'm very deeply disappointed.
Let me break it down for you:
Hyperion - Having two less turrets breaks the Hyperion's model, since it very clearly has eight turret hardpoints. It's literally built into the model. It needs to have eight turrets. That's the Hyperion's entire raison d'etre. - Giving it a 10% damage bonus instead of a 5% one will not fix the ship, because the problem is nothing to do with the amount of damage it deals. When it's fitted for damage, it's one of the most dangerous ships in the game but it's let down by its serious lack of survivability. - You give the excuse of not changing its repair bonus to something more useful because you guys want to fix both active tanking and armour tanking. Cool! I'm all for that - but don't leave a ship supporting a broken mechanic in the meantime unless you mean to fix active tanking and armour tanking at the same time. - Another problem you haven't solved is that the Hyperion is still a less useful version of the Megathron. You need to give it a role far more differentiated from the Megathron. The Gallente currently lack a viable sniper platform - consider that.
Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance. - The Megathron - and blaster boats in general - desperately need more manouverability. The only advantage the Megathron currently possesses over the Talos is that the Talos has vastly less survivability than the Megathron, but this is quickly negated by the fact that the Megathron is often dead long before it gets into range of what it's trying to shoot at. - Dropping the drone bay is a bad idea.
Dominix - The tracking speed/optimal range bonus is essentially entirely worthless for non-sentry drones. If you want the ship to buff sentry drones specifically, give it to it as a role bonus and free up the other Gallente Battleship skill bonus for something else. - The Dominix, believe it or not, does benefit from its hybrid bonus, but if you're not going to give it back, consider giving it a remote repair bonus - this is one of the uses to which it's unusually suited. Mane 614
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Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
164
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:47:00 -
[2221] - Quote
I would like the Hyperion to trade one of it's bonuses for s fall off bonus (if the damage bonus was swapped, it should gain it's 8 turrets back) this way it can still remain a blaster platform but with a noticeably different role than the megathron. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2493
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 09:02:00 -
[2222] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:I would like the Hyperion to trade one of it's bonuses for s fall off bonus (if the damage bonus was swapped, it should gain it's 8 turrets back) this way it can still remain a blaster platform but with a noticeably different role than the megathron. A hybrid falloff bonus would be awesome on the Hyperion - it would give it greater range flexibility with blasters, but it would also make it a scarily effective rail sniper while still being different from the Rokh. Mane 614
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
312
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 10:54:00 -
[2223] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Drake Doe wrote:I would like the Hyperion to trade one of it's bonuses for s fall off bonus (if the damage bonus was swapped, it should gain it's 8 turrets back) this way it can still remain a blaster platform but with a noticeably different role than the megathron. A hybrid falloff bonus would be awesome on the Hyperion - it would give it greater range flexibility with blasters, but it would also make it a scarily effective rail sniper while still being different from the Rokh. Wouldn't it overshadow the Tempest or Maelstrom ? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
251
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 11:31:00 -
[2224] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
This ^^ merits repeating.
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Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
184
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 12:55:00 -
[2225] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Pinky Denmark wrote:I am still very worried about the sheer dps potential coming from that Megathron without any significant weakness in durabiluty with 8 lowslots and only 500 less armor hitpoints than the Amarr Apocalypse battleship.
The Megathron in the current condition can pack a serious punch... Megathron punch so hard people rarely get to deploy their set of heavy drones in a fight before their target is down.
Currently I find the Megathron balanced by the choice of having 3 plates + 1 damage mod or 2 plates + 2 damage mods.
Losing some drone power and a hi-slot which might have held a heavy neutralizer is a small price to pay for getting MORE gun dps and a lowslot for an extra plate or damage mod - or nanofiber/tracking enhancer/eccm whatever... This is a huge buff to one of the ships that didn't really need it - And the gameplay doesn't get changed at all.
I liked the initial proposal much better that suggested a role change - I like a Megathron with 7/5/7 layout a lot. Then I don't mind the ship having a RoF bonus and only 75-100 drone bay...
I've found that a mega fit with 2x plates and 3x mag stabs is beating pretty much any non active tanked bs in a brawl. While this may be rather expected, the victories are coming out rather lop sided. I've been testing them on duality whenever people are on... Runing a 3% rof implant and perfect lvl 5 skills i'm getting just under 1600 dps overheated, Thats quite a bit more than the dual plated dual mfs mega of the past. Especially considering it's got just about the same ehp and is slightly more mobile. The vast majority of complaints about the mega being cap "unstable" are pretty much unfounded. A single heavy cap injector can easily, and I say easily keep your guns running and your tackle active even with 2x heavy neuts on you. I don't see the problem. While I don't see a real issue with the way this works as the megathron has many counters and it's close range dps does not scale very well in medium to large scale gangs... It does most certainly kick ass at the moment, regardless of what the whiners who have not tested it here say.
I'm not able to go on the test server, but these numbers seem a bit off. The current mega with 3 mag stabs puts out 1096 gun dps with void on EFT with max skills. Adding the five Ogre IIs gives you about 317 more dps. Overheating gives you 1260 gun dps, so all told, you get 1577 dps overheated on the old mega.
Now the new RoF bonus compared to the damage bonus gives you about 6% more gun dps. adding that to the overheated numbers gets you about 1335.6 overheated gun dps on the new mega, but you're losing 127 dps because of the 75mb bandwidth, so your dps comes out to 1525.6 overheated on the new mega with 3 mag stabs. It's actually less than it was on the old mega with the loss of the drones.
My point is that these changes are, imo, an overall nerf to the blaster Megathron. The proposed iteration has less dps than the original, less tank, no utility high slot, and has taken a hit on cap because of the RoF bonus. All for a bit more speed.
None of these "balancing" measures really address what the real problems with the mega and blaster boats in general are, i.e. slow when properly tanked, not enough dps to make up the difference when you get to target, poor damage projection when compared to other BS. Maybe the speed buff does something to address this? But something tells me 7m/s more speed isn't going to bridge the gap between the mega and the other BS out there.
All that said, I am actually curious how fast it goes on the test server with the MWD on.
Frankly, I'd take the current Mega over the proposed one everyday and twice on Sundays. I'm pretty sure no one thinks the old Mega needed to be nerfed, so lets come up with something that actually gives us a net improvement on the ship. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
312
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 13:07:00 -
[2226] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Frankly, I'd take the current Mega over the proposed one everyday and twice on Sundays. I'm pretty sure no one thinks the old Mega needed to be nerfed, so lets come up with something that actually gives us a net improvement on the ship. The new Hyperion is everything you can ask from a blaster ship, and even more. The new Megathron is only here to please those who want it to be a worse something else with a Megathron hull. |
Jerick Ludhowe
J temp corp
431
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 13:43:00 -
[2227] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I'm not able to go on the test server, but these numbers seem a bit off. The current mega with 3 mag stabs puts out 1096 gun dps with void on EFT with max skills. Adding the five Ogre IIs gives you about 317 more dps. Overheating gives you 1260 gun dps, so all told, you get 1577 dps overheated on the old mega.
Now the new RoF bonus compared to the damage bonus gives you about 6% more gun dps. adding that to the overheated numbers gets you about 1335.6 overheated gun dps on the new mega, but you're losing 127 dps because of the 75mb bandwidth, so your dps comes out to 1525.6 overheated on the new mega with 3 mag stabs. It's actually less than it was on the old mega with the loss of the drones.
My point is that these changes are, imo, an overall nerf to the blaster Megathron. The proposed iteration has less dps than the original, less tank, no utility high slot, and has taken a hit on cap because of the RoF bonus. All for a bit more speed.
None of these "balancing" measures really address what the real problems with the mega and blaster boats in general are, i.e. slow when properly tanked, not enough dps to make up the difference when you get to target, poor damage projection when compared to other BS. Maybe the speed buff does something to address this? But something tells me 7m/s more speed isn't going to bridge the gap between the mega and the other BS out there.
All that said, I am actually curious how fast it goes on the test server with the MWD on.
Frankly, I'd take the current Mega over the proposed one everyday and twice on Sundays. I'm pretty sure no one thinks the old Mega needed to be nerfed, so lets come up with something that actually gives us a net improvement on the ship.
Allot of what you are saying is ballox my friend. Either your math is off or you're pulling numbers out of your ass. Here are two screen shots showing the difference in dps between tq mega and duality mega...
As for your claim or rather whine about how these changes don't change any of the megathrons real problems... Mega has been one of the most well balanced BS for a long time, there has not been allot wrong with the ship. The new ship does more dps, by a wide margin with about the same ehp, a bit more speed, and omg a bit more cap consumption on the guns... As for the cap consumption, as I previously stated, a heavy cap injector can keep your guns running while under multiple nuets just fine. The cap argument is just another whine posted by uneducated players unwilling to give the change a real try.
Here are the two images, both with the same implants (3% rof)
http://imageshack.us/f/62/livemega.jpg/
[url]http://imageshack.us/f/209/newmega.jpg/[/url]
Yeah, so old mega with 2x mfs does more dps than new mega with 3x.... not...
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Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
184
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:16:00 -
[2228] - Quote
You're right, my math was wrong. Or rather not wrong but I was assuming that a 3 mfs Mega had the same tank as a 3mfs mega under the proposed changes, which was clearly not right.
So I've changed my mind, I endorse this product and or service CCP.
P.S. You kinda sound like a prick when you argue, you should try and work on that. |
Jerick Ludhowe
J temp corp
431
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:21:00 -
[2229] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:You're right, my math was wrong. Or rather not wrong but I was assuming that a 3 mfs Mega had the same tank as a 3mfs mega under the proposed changes, which was clearly not right.
So I've changed my mind, I endorse this product and or service CCP.
P.S. You kinda sound like a prick when you argue, you should try and work on that.
Don't post misinformed opinions and the problem should sort itself.
|
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
165
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:49:00 -
[2230] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Drake Doe wrote:I would like the Hyperion to trade one of it's bonuses for s fall off bonus (if the damage bonus was swapped, it should gain it's 8 turrets back) this way it can still remain a blaster platform but with a noticeably different role than the megathron. A hybrid falloff bonus would be awesome on the Hyperion - it would give it greater range flexibility with blasters, but it would also make it a scarily effective rail sniper while still being different from the Rokh. Wouldn't it overshadow the Tempest or Maelstrom ? If that was the case wouldn't the rohk and apoc already do so? "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2647
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 17:56:00 -
[2231] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:You know, CCP, I had some pretty strong opinions on Gallente battleships and the changes didn't sit well with me, so I decided that instead of getting properly upset I'd give it a couple of weeks and then come back, hoping that when things had had some time to settle, things would get better.
They have not gotten better and I'm very deeply disappointed.
Let me break it down for you:
Hyperion - Having two less turrets breaks the Hyperion's model, since it very clearly has eight turret hardpoints. It's literally built into the model. It needs to have eight turrets. That's the Hyperion's entire raison d'etre. - Giving it a 10% damage bonus instead of a 5% one will not fix the ship, because the problem is nothing to do with the amount of damage it deals. When it's fitted for damage, it's one of the most dangerous ships in the game but it's let down by its serious lack of survivability. - You give the excuse of not changing its repair bonus to something more useful because you guys want to fix both active tanking and armour tanking. Cool! I'm all for that - but don't leave a ship supporting a broken mechanic in the meantime unless you mean to fix active tanking and armour tanking at the same time. - Another problem you haven't solved is that the Hyperion is still a less useful version of the Megathron. You need to give it a role far more differentiated from the Megathron. The Gallente currently lack a viable sniper platform - consider that.
Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance. - The Megathron - and blaster boats in general - desperately need more manouverability. The only advantage the Megathron currently possesses over the Talos is that the Talos has vastly less survivability than the Megathron, but this is quickly negated by the fact that the Megathron is often dead long before it gets into range of what it's trying to shoot at. - Dropping the drone bay is a bad idea.
Dominix - The tracking speed/optimal range bonus is essentially entirely worthless for non-sentry drones. If you want the ship to buff sentry drones specifically, give it to it as a role bonus and free up the other Gallente Battleship skill bonus for something else. - The Dominix, believe it or not, does benefit from its hybrid bonus, but if you're not going to give it back, consider giving it a remote repair bonus - this is one of the uses to which it's unusually suited.
Hi,
every single point on your list is uninformed bullcrap, it's like you didn't even read the changes.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 19:37:00 -
[2232] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Hyperion:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Megathron: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage) +7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2) Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 380(-20)
No chance of the Hyperion being OP atm with its lame cap recharge rate its as low as it could be the default cap recharge. Even the mega has better cap even though the Hyperion is the active tanker.... Also armour repping is still pretty weak.... Maybe if you rectify these 2 things then it may just be bordering OP at least. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
431
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 19:49:00 -
[2233] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
No chance of the Hyperion being OP atm with its lame cap recharge rate its as low as it could be the default cap recharge. Even the mega has better cap even though the Hyperion is the active tanker.... Also armour repping is still pretty weak.... Maybe if you rectify these 2 things then it may just be bordering OP at least.
you should probably look into what 2x heavy cap injectors does bro... Cap recharge is going to have a rather insignificant effect on the Hyperion's ability in pvp. The simple fact that it gets more gun dps (extra low, and ability to fit full rack of ions), more drone dps, and a heavy nuet means that it is much much better than it was before. In armor buffer fit, It's going to be dual webbed with a cap injector or filled with some other form of Ewar, ship is getting better in this style of fit as well.
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 19:50:00 -
[2234] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:
No chance of the Hyperion being OP atm with its lame cap recharge rate its as low as it could be the default cap recharge. Even the mega has better cap even though the Hyperion is the active tanker.... Also armour repping is still pretty weak.... Maybe if you rectify these 2 things then it may just be bordering OP at least.
you should probably look into what 2x heavy cap injectors does bro... Cap recharge is going to have a rather insignificant effect on the Hyperion's ability in pvp. The simple fact that it gets more gun dps (extra low, and ability to fit full rack of ions), more drone dps, and a heavy nuet means that it is much much better than it was before. In armor buffer fit, It's going to be dual webbed with a cap injector or filled with some other form of Ewar, ship is getting better in this style of fit as well.
what so it can't even fit Neutrons? .... mmm... very OP eh :P 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
431
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 20:12:00 -
[2235] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
what so it can't even fit Neutrons? .... mmm... very OP eh :P it needs much more pg than the mega.. armour reps and armour rep rigs a nos/neut uses more pg than guns do.. and it only gets 250 more than mega .. its a joke The maelstrom doesn't have too pick which tier guns too fit. .. why should the Hyperion? O it also needs at least 1 Heavy cap booster thats another guns worth of pg
You tested changes on duality yet bub? Based on the tone of your comments I'm going to assume you have not.
As for the inability to fit largest tier guns with 2x heavy cap injectors, 2x large reppers, and a heavy nuet... It can't be the best at everything. Ship is still doing over 1100 dps with said fit while sporting a tank that can easily handle any other bs out there with ease, even with a couple heavy nuets draining your cap.
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 20:21:00 -
[2236] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:
what so it can't even fit Neutrons? .... mmm... very OP eh :P it needs much more pg than the mega.. armour reps and armour rep rigs a nos/neut uses more pg than guns do.. and it only gets 250 more than mega .. its a joke The maelstrom doesn't have too pick which tier guns too fit. .. why should the Hyperion? O it also needs at least 1 Heavy cap booster thats another guns worth of pg
You tested changes on duality yet bub? Based on the tone of your comments I'm going to assume you have not. As for the inability to fit largest tier guns with 2x heavy cap injectors, 2x large reppers, and a heavy nuet... It can't be the best at everything. Ship is still doing over 1100 dps with said fit while sporting a tank that can easily handle any other bs out there with ease, even with a couple heavy nuets draining your cap.
im working off eft so maybe that 250 really makes a massive difference but i imagine not somehow.. but the point is the maelstrom can fit arties if it wants on it along with anything else it wants yet gallente ships can't even fit the highest tier short range guns nevermind fitting rail ..... it is unbalanced are you happy with this? Gallente pilots complain about the lack of fleet ships and this is why they do.
'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
255
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 20:33:00 -
[2237] - Quote
Roime wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:You know, CCP, I had some pretty strong opinions on Gallente battleships and the changes didn't sit well with me, so I decided that instead of getting properly upset I'd give it a couple of weeks and then come back, hoping that when things had had some time to settle, things would get better.
They have not gotten better and I'm very deeply disappointed.
Let me break it down for you:
Hyperion - Having two less turrets breaks the Hyperion's model, since it very clearly has eight turret hardpoints. It's literally built into the model. It needs to have eight turrets. That's the Hyperion's entire raison d'etre. - Giving it a 10% damage bonus instead of a 5% one will not fix the ship, because the problem is nothing to do with the amount of damage it deals. When it's fitted for damage, it's one of the most dangerous ships in the game but it's let down by its serious lack of survivability. - You give the excuse of not changing its repair bonus to something more useful because you guys want to fix both active tanking and armour tanking. Cool! I'm all for that - but don't leave a ship supporting a broken mechanic in the meantime unless you mean to fix active tanking and armour tanking at the same time. - Another problem you haven't solved is that the Hyperion is still a less useful version of the Megathron. You need to give it a role far more differentiated from the Megathron. The Gallente currently lack a viable sniper platform - consider that.
Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance. - The Megathron - and blaster boats in general - desperately need more manouverability. The only advantage the Megathron currently possesses over the Talos is that the Talos has vastly less survivability than the Megathron, but this is quickly negated by the fact that the Megathron is often dead long before it gets into range of what it's trying to shoot at. - Dropping the drone bay is a bad idea.
Dominix - The tracking speed/optimal range bonus is essentially entirely worthless for non-sentry drones. If you want the ship to buff sentry drones specifically, give it to it as a role bonus and free up the other Gallente Battleship skill bonus for something else. - The Dominix, believe it or not, does benefit from its hybrid bonus, but if you're not going to give it back, consider giving it a remote repair bonus - this is one of the uses to which it's unusually suited. Hi, every single point on your list is uninformed bullcrap, it's like you didn't even read the changes.
Perhaps you could highlight to me where the balancing change to make the mega cap neutral to the ROF increase is, because I cant see it either. The small cap increase doesnt cut it, afaik.
Or was the mega too cap stable before..........? |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 20:57:00 -
[2238] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:snip
Cause a barely noticable increase in poweruse is not important if you got the midslot and the PG to fit a heavy capinjector anyways. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2494
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 23:17:00 -
[2239] - Quote
Roime wrote:Hi,
every single point on your list is uninformed bullcrap, it's like you didn't even read the changes. Yeah, no. If you're going to troll, put some effort into it. Mane 614
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2648
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 00:07:00 -
[2240] - Quote
Just stating a fact, mate, no more effort needed.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
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Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
77
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:12:00 -
[2241] - Quote
Well, at least some of you seem to realize now that the 2nd version of the Hype is OP, that's a step up from the last time I checked this thread |
Perihelion Olenard
153
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 11:01:00 -
[2242] - Quote
I'm still trying to understand the changes behind the Dominix. If you want it to be a sniper it should be an attack battleship, not combat. Even if it becomes a sentry drone sniper a couple other ships will probably do it better. I really don't like sentry drones anyway since their damage is delayed, they don't move when recalled, their signature resolution is massive, and they can easily be alphaed by another sniper.
For brawling with an armor tank the new Dominix isn't going to have very good damage compared to what can be achieved with the new Megathron or Hyperion. Saying the damage was too high when gank fit isn't very good justification for removing the turret damage bonus. The same can be said about the Vexor and Brutix, but they aren't being nerfed. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 15:48:00 -
[2243] - Quote
sentries are good in some specific roles but i dont really see them being a serious fleet doctrine for anyone except in carriers ... a small squad of stealth bombers and a well timed bomb volley can clear 100+ domi's sentry dps in a blink. at least with carriers you have room to to store so many extra sentries it isnt that huge of a deal ... but in domi's if they get their bouncers cleared out by bombs and then an armor fleet undocks they are basically toast. same if they get curators cleared then hostiles undock shield fleet ect ect ... seems to easily counterable.
the whole fleet of domi's sentries can be cleared by some good bombs... and they cant stay aligned so no fast warpouts when sentries deployed. i just dont see it working ... and i think the people that do like it are probably underskilled gallente pilots who cant use large t2 railguns anyway and are thinking about doing missions ... they probably arent even considering pvp. domi is going to be a noob gallente pilot mission ship who is probably going to train projectiles intead of railguns.
if you want it to be a serious sentry fleet ship you need to change sentries so that they can move with its host ship to stay in docking range when aligned (not using prop mods) ... or simply allow ships to stay aligned while not moving ... its stupid anyway that your ship aligns to some stupid angle while at 0 in space anyway.
until this is changed this will not be a serious fleet ship ... there is a reason ishtars are hardly used in HAC fleets and until you change these basic flaws with sentry's in an offensive mobile fleet things are going to remain the same as now. crapcat fleets are not a go. |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 16:12:00 -
[2244] - Quote
here is a perfect example of what i just described in a fleet battle i was in a while back
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16508758
if your good at reading battle reports its easy to tell they got most of their sentries bombed then an armor abaddon fleet undocked and trounced them.
they where doing great until the sentries started getting bombed but thats most likely due to the prophecy armor resist bonus and PL being overall very good at what they do ... lost my poor vexor that i was flying AGAINST doctrine so didnt get reimbursed lol http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16508758 and i dont know why but i got targeted instantly in my vexor ... i think there is a sign on the back saying *hey im gallente kill me first! meh at least i got on some proph kills in my hastily made abaddon ... but really this is a underperforming doctrine compared to others and destructable fleetwide dps that is immobile is terrible and too easily counterable. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2650
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 18:45:00 -
[2245] - Quote
^ It's also easy to tell that a BC fleet lost to a BS / T3 fleet with four times their numbers
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 18:48:00 -
[2246] - Quote
and its also easy to tell several people are listed twice due to reshipping or changing ships .. see how im listed twice? you fail to see the obvious |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 19:28:00 -
[2247] - Quote
anyhow this domi is a very experimental fleet ship at best with obvious drawbacks ... it really isnt the fleet ballteship gallente was hoping for and probably still wont make it into any doctrines unlike the Abaddon,Maelstrom, and Rokh.
All we want is 1 legitimate fleet battleship ... thats all ... =( |
Kenshi Hanshin
Karl XII's Dragoner Apocalypse Now.
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 20:01:00 -
[2248] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:anyhow this domi is a very experimental fleet ship at best with obvious drawbacks ... it really isnt the fleet ballteship gallente was hoping for and probably still wont make it into any doctrines unlike the Abaddon,Maelstrom, and Rokh.
All we want is 1 legitimate fleet battleship ... thats all ... =(
and i dont claim to be any type of expert on it but this is what i seen in my experience that i have had with it. from what i can tell the guys over at PL could probably give the best input regarding fleet application use since they probably used that type of doctrine more then anyone else.
I agree but I doubt that a certain individual will see it our way. In case you haven't notice the Devs love to nerf the Caldari ships which are complete bullshit for pvp. Well, except the old drake, tengu and rohk. Which they seem hell bent on "fixing".
As to Gallente, drones need to be fixed to make a viable weapon system. Armor tanking needs to be brought up to par with Shield. Then it would be easier to 'balance' the ships. Mechanics first ships after. How many times does CCP have to ignore logical progression? |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2652
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 21:49:00 -
[2249] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:and its also easy to tell several people are listed twice or 3-4 times due to reshipping or changing ships .. see how im listed twice? you fail to see the obvious
besides that doesnt have anything to do with the point i was making .... the fact is fleets that rely on sentries are susceptible to some easy counters and cant fight while aligned .. and its destructable immobile dps.
and having greater numbers isnt what always wins a fight .. in this case bombing the sentries and undocking abby's was the smart thing to do . or we could have just told 30 people to log off to make it a fair fight ... yeah that not how it works out there.
btw my initial fleet i was in was about 20 reguler cruiser that warped in and got spanked right away of which my vexor was a part of .. and we were outnumbered before joining up with a razor fleet .. so once again .. maybe you shouldnt talk or assume things when you dont got a clue what your talking about and you were not even there.
Yes, even with reshipping there is still more battleships and T3s than PL had BCs. And what, about 30 logis on the br. This example you posted does not really prove that sentries are bad- you say that first they kicked your butt, then they died when you blobbed them.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
141
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 22:13:00 -
[2250] - Quote
your so far off man ... seriously stop trying to read the battle report your just making yourself look bad. why dont u stick to the topic instead of giving backward and 100% inaccurate battle report statistics about a fight u were not a part of ... i was there look .. i think i can tell what happened better then you.
we had 20 cruiser vs their 50-60 man fleet at first and of course lost ... then a razor loki fleet came in and played around a little bit to keep them busy but i dont think killed much of anything because not enough Alpha. then we combined into a abby fleet bombed their sentries undocked and killed them. the loki's were never on field at same time as the abby's mr wizard
you would actually see this if u see who killed who when and how by reading the mails but instead you just look at the overview and go uhh 150-50 the blob is the only tactic that won that? u serious? rofl
seriously you have no idea what your talking about for your own sake you should just keep quiet.
what about bombers tactics against subcap sentry fleets?
what about not being able to align with sentries and no fast warp off's and no mobile engagements?
either give me some information statistics or some validity in any of the stuff your talking about or just take yourself out of the discussion and stop trolling. your post is misinformed by a large amount probably due to your inexperience .. your assesment is all wrong .. and your avoiding my valid points about sentry fleets being weak and seem focused on trying to interpret something that is irrelevent to the points i made....
so add something useful or stop trolling the discussion board.
|
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Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
141
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 22:17:00 -
[2251] - Quote
Roime wrote:you say that first they kicked your butt, then they died when you blobbed them.
really man ... so its considered getting you butt kicked when you fight 20 against 60 but when you fight 90 against 60 is considered a blob ... REALLY? ... i mean lol listen to yourself |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
141
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 22:34:00 -
[2252] - Quote
and trust me i have thought of alot of tactics for sentry fleets to deal with bombers ... like assigned sentries to instacanes and frigates to try to alpha them fast ..setting up defensive shield bubbles to make bombing harder .. firewall mb? the bombs will still get launched though and force the sentries to be picked up again or risk losing them .. even if you dont pop the sentries with the bombs and you are good at redeploying ect ect it still takes them off the field .. which if there is a hostile turret based gang within 50km is a bad thing and that also means you can be forced to deploy and redeploy from bombs constantly while under fire from turrets .. something turret fleets dont have to worry bout ... |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
367
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 00:05:00 -
[2253] - Quote
The only thing about a Megathron being "supposed to kick ass" is the fact blasters no longer have a very short range. Getting within 10km from other battleships isn't that difficult and if things go wrong it only takes 5 seconds to change for Null ammunition recently boosted and suddenly dealing serious dps at longer range. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 00:14:00 -
[2254] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:The only thing about a Megathron being "supposed to kick ass" is the fact blasters no longer have a very short range. Getting within 10km from other battleships isn't that difficult and if things go wrong it only takes 5 seconds to change for Null ammunition recently boosted and suddenly dealing serious dps at longer range.
so much so as that trying to kite a mega in a nano pest is impossible he just does more dps even at the ranges the pest is supposed to shine all the pest has going for it in that situation is the ability to run away after realizing that it has no chance in hell to win Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
168
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 01:50:00 -
[2255] - Quote
CCP! You guys really needs to make Sentries able to return to the mothership slowly (I'm thinking 200m/s). It's not going to break Sentries or obsolete Heavies, Heavies already move much faster and do more dps to boot, having Sentries immobile GREATLY limits their usability and now that you're making the Domi essentially a specifically sentry-bonused boat, this feature NEEDS to be implemented. I'm sure most people agree. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
436
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 02:55:00 -
[2256] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Pinky Denmark wrote:The only thing about a Megathron being "supposed to kick ass" is the fact blasters no longer have a very short range. Getting within 10km from other battleships isn't that difficult and if things go wrong it only takes 5 seconds to change for Null ammunition recently boosted and suddenly dealing serious dps at longer range. so much so as that trying to kite a mega in a nano pest is impossible he just does more dps even at the ranges the pest is supposed to shine all the pest has going for it in that situation is the ability to run away after realizing that it has no chance in hell to win
Pretty much this, and pretty sure I was the mega in this tested matchup :P
The problem imo has more to do with the overall range of close range Bs sized weapons and the fact that tackle range is more or less static regardless of ship type. Kiting can work extremely well in the frigate arena, and pretty damn well when it comes to cruisers and bcs. However when the closest range weapons are hitting for 500+ dps at 30km w/o a TC or a TE you're going to run into the issue you have highlighted.
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Rachel Starchaser
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 03:15:00 -
[2257] - Quote
I like it. |
Andy Landen
Air Initiative Mercenaries
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 06:02:00 -
[2258] - Quote
Sounds great. When is this part happening, again? |
Sol Mortis
An Heroes
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 10:38:00 -
[2259] - Quote
Please reconsider the changes to the Megathron Drone Bay. 75 bandwidth is wimpy and will make my favorite battleship feel like the old crappy Myrmidon.
I've loved the Megathron for many years now, and it has always been about having lots of guns, lots of lows, AND lots of drones.
I don't understand why the Hyperion didn't lose drones for more gun power since it was already a more natural fit.
It is sad you have decided to destroy the identity of iconic ships like the Megathron and Typhoon. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
436
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 10:48:00 -
[2260] - Quote
Sol Mortis wrote:Please reconsider the changes to the Megathron Drone Bay. 75 bandwidth is wimpy and will make my favorite battleship feel like the old crappy Myrmidon.
I've loved the Megathron for many years now, and it has always been about having lots of guns, lots of lows, AND lots of drones.
I don't understand why the Hyperion didn't lose drones for more gun power since it was already a more natural fit.
It is sad you have decided to destroy the identity of iconic ships like the Megathron and Typhoon.
Dude... Dude... There is no way the megathron is going to keep it's additional 200+ turrets dps and retain a full 125m3 drone bay. Allready the megathron is hitting close to 1600 dps overheated on duality while sporting just about the same tank as it has on live. Another 50m3 drone bay would bring it close to 1700 dps, which is simply out of control.
There is absolutely no way the megathron is going to receive it's 125m3 drone bay back.
|
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Worpowt Wharpoff
Lulz Exploration Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 10:49:00 -
[2261] - Quote
Wow the new megathron looks horrible. Why would they take the drones away from the ship with a giant drone bay in the front and center.
The Hyperion already had lots of guns but not anymore? |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:14:00 -
[2262] - Quote
If anything I would hit the Mega's drone bandwidth again. In practice the 2-2-1 drone combo will be rarely used. Better to reduce on paper DPS (if people have genuine concerns it is overpowered) opting for 50 (75) bay (bandwidth) a flight of mediums and flight of lights is more practical. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
186
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:37:00 -
[2263] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:If anything I would hit the Mega's drone bandwidth again. In practice the 2-2-1 drone combo will be rarely used. Better to reduce on paper DPS (if people have genuine concerns it is overpowered) opting for 50 (75) bay (bandwidth) a flight of mediums and flight of lights is more practical.
Quiet, you. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
436
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:38:00 -
[2264] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:If anything I would hit the Mega's drone bandwidth again. In practice the 2-2-1 drone combo will be rarely used. Better to reduce on paper DPS (if people have genuine concerns it is overpowered) opting for 50 (75) bay (bandwidth) a flight of mediums and flight of lights is more practical.
You can already do that with 75m3 bandwidth... The only difference is you have the option for 2-2-1 if you want 200ish dps instead of 150ish, or 95ish...
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:47:00 -
[2265] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:If anything I would hit the Mega's drone bandwidth again. In practice the 2-2-1 drone combo will be rarely used. Better to reduce on paper DPS (if people have genuine concerns it is overpowered) opting for 50 (75) bay (bandwidth) a flight of mediums and flight of lights is more practical. Quiet, you. Agreed.
Let the Mega keep its drones, it makes it look a bit more attractive for certain operations than the other Attack BCs (which get 50). The Mega's 75mbit/s dronebay is in keeping with Gallente Drone superiority. Ironically, the Dominix is "not so much" now. Save the drones! |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:00:00 -
[2266] - Quote
2 more drones won't make much of a difference, it'll just encourage pilots to use heavy drones instead of mediums, and they are not only destroyable dps but they're easy to kill with most bs weapons. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
436
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:11:00 -
[2267] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:2 more drones won't make much of a difference, it'll just encourage pilots to use heavy drones instead of mediums, and they are not only destroyable dps but they're easy to kill with most bs weapons.
2 more drones will push it's heated dps to 1700ish while sporting the same tank that many people use today. No way is that balanced at all.
So much gallente whine coming from people before they even test the changes, kind of sickening tbh.
|
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:41:00 -
[2268] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Drake Doe wrote:2 more drones won't make much of a difference, it'll just encourage pilots to use heavy drones instead of mediums, and they are not only destroyable dps but they're easy to kill with most bs weapons. 2 more drones will push it's heated dps to 1700ish while sporting the same tank that many people use today. No way is that balanced at all. So much gallente whine coming from people before they even test the changes, kind of sickening tbh. It's tank on Tq is noted as being lack luster compared to BSes more common in pvp other the rohk and abaddon. Now it puts out the dps that gallente ships should be doing, especially since if heavies are deployed outside 10km the ship you're attacking will have more than enough time to deploy smaller drones which can kill heavies with ease. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
210
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:14:00 -
[2269] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
This ^^ merits repeating.
Nonsense.. the capacitor does not vanish because of that. You still use the same ammount of cap to kill your enemy.. you just end up killing it faster than before.
There is ZERO disadvantage in that. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
174
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:20:00 -
[2270] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
This ^^ merits repeating. Nonsense.. the capacitor does not vanish because of that. You still use the same ammount of cap to kill your enemy.. you just end up killing it faster than before. There is ZERO disadvantage in that. Actually you will be using more cap because you're using more rounds which will do less damage than they did with a direct damage bonus "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
210
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:40:00 -
[2271] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
This ^^ merits repeating. Nonsense.. the capacitor does not vanish because of that. You still use the same ammount of cap to kill your enemy.. you just end up killing it faster than before. There is ZERO disadvantage in that. Actually you will be using more cap because you're using more rounds which will do less damage than they did with a direct damage bonus
Ok granted its a tiny bit difference. But you stay in fight less time using the other modules. The final difference is not HUGe as some people try to portrait. |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:37:00 -
[2272] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
This ^^ merits repeating. Nonsense.. the capacitor does not vanish because of that. You still use the same ammount of cap to kill your enemy.. you just end up killing it faster than before. There is ZERO disadvantage in that. Actually you will be using more cap because you're using more rounds which will do less damage than they did with a direct damage bonus Ok granted its a tiny bit difference. But you stay in fight less time using the other modules. The final difference is not HUGe as some people try to portrait.
... basicly we have to use More ammo More cap less impact Per volly for a overall damg output...that dose NOT sound like a good plan to me
id prefer the Stright on added damg? why is that an issue? dose the Mega RELLY need to be difrent to the dagreee its unqe feture is it fires fasters costs more ammo and its ability to stay in a fight for longer becomes harder?
work out the ammo usage and cost with Null or Void and that will slowly add up to costing a LOT more for just a tad extra? meh sod that id probly just use a hyperion or in big fleets something better
i do not like this and im sure other dont ether. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
730
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:31:00 -
[2273] - Quote
There is no change for the most important part when flying Gallente, there was no fleet Battleship before and there will be no fleet battleship after but you can still fly your special non reimbursable special snowflake in the fleet.
Mega can now get a decent tank or extra dps with that low, but if you fit rails on it there's nothing you can do with you can't do better it with a Rokh fleet, if you fit blasters this might as well end in a fleet trap with some dozen bombers shredding appart the theoretical ubber dps fleet because it's too easy to counter (a Gank Talos fleet on top of whatever capital ship will still be a better choice)
It might work, but I give it as much credit as I give for Sentries fleets, far too easy to counter but doesn't mean it can't succeed some times. The versatility of other weapon systems and ships because of few drawbacks is still way above any Gallente battleship.
Brutix can easily output 1000DPS and still get decent EHP however, Drakes with HM's and average 1/3rd of that dps will be better, and we can sort it out as much as we want and theorize about it, it's a fact that accumulating even at minor differences so many drawbacks like Gallente ships/guns have there's no way Gallente will ever have a decent fleet Battleship unless CCP completely changes their point of view about Gallente being "elitist masochism" and actually make them more versatile by reverting some changes with other races.
They were kings of station undocks and gate camping, they will just be better at it and now slightly better for low sec roaming fights involving a couple ships/battleships.
It's a nice improvement.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:48:00 -
[2274] - Quote
Yes the Navy brutix is a beast basically a more nimble slightly less tanky version of a mega.. The domi seems to be the fleet ship.. its sad because the Hyperion could be used much like the Maelstrom in ranged fleet warfare if given the fittings to fit Rails as an armour variant to the Rokh but they haven't :( missed opportunity. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:18:00 -
[2275] - Quote
I think the mega should have higher scan res than the Hyperion it should be an attack battleship trait as they are designed more towards killing smaller ships with there tracking bonuses. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
210
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 18:19:00 -
[2276] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:I think the mega should have higher scan res than the Hyperion it should be an attack battleship trait as they are designed more towards killing smaller ships with there tracking bonuses.
Cannot disagree with that. But its almost more of a problem of the hyperion not having any disadvantage right now. The mega should get a bit more scan res (closer to minmatar level) and the hyperion should loose a bit of it. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
104
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:37:00 -
[2277] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:First
Edit:How about the Dominix gains some extra drone bay to set apart for the Armageddon, as they have identical drone bandwidth and drone bay.
would make more sense to give the geddon more drone bay but limit it to 100mbit or 7.5% drone damage bonus instead of 10% |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
935
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:40:00 -
[2278] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:First
Edit:How about the Dominix gains some extra drone bay to set apart for the Armageddon, as they have identical drone bandwidth and drone bay. would make more sense to give the geddon more drone bay but limit it to 100mbit or 7.5% drone damage bonus instead of 10% They have states they will not reduce the bandwidth of the Armageddon which puts the natural progression out of sync, at that point they could only look at the advancement line. In which the Thanatos has a bigger drone bay than the archon. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Dr Ted Kaper
Patriot Security Services
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:56:00 -
[2279] - Quote
Hyperion: Actually I like it: active tanks are already weak in a lot of situations so it's good to make it a strong solo or duo ship, which is rare in Battleships anyways...
Dominix: you need to give a comparable bonus to drone control range to compliment the increased range of sentries, and honestly the range bonus is just making all other snipe ships obsolete because domis already have amazing damage projection. I liked the turret damage bonus for its versatility, and drone ships are strong because they can adapt. Honestly just increase the armor and sig size/ give the drones the damage bonus...
Megathron: You MUST have a comparable bonus to cap recharge/ or you can give a role bonus to MWD and AB cap use/ bonus to turret cap use... Actually the burner bonus would make sense on a ship which is supposed to be agile and fast. Also a buff to its sensor resolution... |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
175
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 20:14:00 -
[2280] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: Megathron - A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
This ^^ merits repeating. Nonsense.. the capacitor does not vanish because of that. You still use the same ammount of cap to kill your enemy.. you just end up killing it faster than before. There is ZERO disadvantage in that. Actually you will be using more cap because you're using more rounds which will do less damage than they did with a direct damage bonus Ok granted its a tiny bit difference. But you stay in fight less time using the other modules. The final difference is not HUGe as some people try to portrait. Let me put this in perspective, imagine if projectiles started taking cap (even as tiny as 1/3 of the draw of the appropriate hybrid weapon, which could be justified by them needing cap to track) would there not be a major uproar? "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
|
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Last Resort.
429
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:36:00 -
[2281] - Quote
Please CCP Rise, Take a look at this tread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=228586&find=unread
I'm just an engineer trying to improve eve : ) Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
212
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:41:00 -
[2282] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote: Let me put this in perspective, imagine if projectiles started taking cap (even as tiny as 1/3 of the draw of the appropriate hybrid weapon, which could be justified by them needing cap to track) would there not be a major uproar?
I would not complain at all if that was brouhght along same capacitor of gallente ships, and the MASSIVE damage advantage.
I play this game for almost 7 years. And on all races (aldari less than others) when accountign my several characters. And I am yet to ONCE.. a SINGLE TIME.. get out of cap in a PVP fight (not counting POS shooting as a fight) unless I am being neutralized.
The cap usage of balsters is not a huige deal at all. A single cycle of the MWD uses as much cap as you use in a small fight.
As of now I prefer gallente ships a LOT more than minmatar ships (sicne the blaster buffs) |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 01:34:00 -
[2283] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Drake Doe wrote: Let me put this in perspective, imagine if projectiles started taking cap (even as tiny as 1/3 of the draw of the appropriate hybrid weapon, which could be justified by them needing cap to track) would there not be a major uproar?
I would not complain at all if that was brouhght along same capacitor of gallente ships, and the MASSIVE damage advantage. I play this game for almost 7 years. And on all races (aldari less than others) when accountign my several characters. And I am yet to ONCE.. a SINGLE TIME.. get out of cap in a PVP fight (not counting POS shooting as a fight) unless I am being neutralized. The cap usage of balsters is not a huige deal at all. A single cycle of the MWD uses as much cap as you use in a small fight. As of now I prefer gallente ships a LOT more than minmatar ships (sicne the blaster buffs)
What you fail to see is that the Mega already had cap issues. Now with the MINOR damage bonus (some even say nerf after the loss of drones) the Mega will become almost unusable due to cap issues. Bottomline is if they are going to take away the damage bonus for a RoF bonus then they need to also increase the CAP to keep up.
My biggest complaints are with the updates
1) The Hyperion Armor Rep bonus; no one wants it but CCP says suck it up its broke and we are committed to force it on people even though we know active armor tanking sucks currently even after it was "balanced"
2) The Mega RoF bonus making it less cap stable than before and the loss of drones which really made it cool
3) I hate that there is now no 8 gun BS, the only 8 gun ship the Gallente have is the Talos
4) The Domi removing of the Hybrid bonus is HORRIBLE! If they would actually give a new bonus that was useful then it would be OK. Maybe increasing the Drone damage bonus to 12.5% and then add the tracking, optimal, velocity bonus. (A true drone boat)
5) Change the ugly domi model |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 01:45:00 -
[2284] - Quote
Here is what I would change the Domi to:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +15% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range, Velocity and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 5(-1) turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 425(+50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Still less damage, but better drone utility and now the Domi has a utility high for armor/shield repping or a neut. Overall it now becomes a decent fleet ship and a true drone boat. My changes are highlighted by _____. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
437
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 02:35:00 -
[2285] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Drake Doe wrote:2 more drones won't make much of a difference, it'll just encourage pilots to use heavy drones instead of mediums, and they are not only destroyable dps but they're easy to kill with most bs weapons. 2 more drones will push it's heated dps to 1700ish while sporting the same tank that many people use today. No way is that balanced at all. So much gallente whine coming from people before they even test the changes, kind of sickening tbh. It's tank on Tq is noted as being lack luster compared to BSes more common in pvp other the rohk and abaddon. Now it puts out the dps that gallente ships should be doing, especially since if heavies are deployed outside 10km the ship you're attacking will have more than enough time to deploy smaller drones which can kill heavies with ease.
Go do yourself a favor and run the new megathron against pretty much any of the close range non active BS out there. It's extremely clear that you have not tested the new changes. Another 2 Heavy drones would be absolutely over the top.
If you so wish I'll run a megathron against your choice, see you on test.
|
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:23:00 -
[2286] - Quote
Everything is set in stone, dev have not posted in a while. |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 05:50:00 -
[2287] - Quote
Hoinus wrote:Everything is set in stone, dev have not posted in a while.
looks like it... so the Mega is a lost cause(with riseing ammo costs) and the domi is fubar on drone sentry street well lest i can still run my PvE fit Hyperion i guess... maby...
with the exploration comeing and the unknown details their this is probly one of the first expantions to eve im relly not looking forward to. at current time anyhow
sigh
- Seeker out |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
492
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 05:56:00 -
[2288] - Quote
Hoinus wrote:Everything is set in stone, dev have not posted in a while. The main balance guys took yesterday off. They will post some to day probably. Nothing is in stone until its on TQ thats rule number one when dealing with the test servers. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 07:03:00 -
[2289] - Quote
Hoinus wrote:Everything is set in stone, dev have not posted in a while.
Nope. It is not set in stone yet. There was a fanfest last weekend so devs were probably way too busy to reply on forums. I would guess they had day off yesterday as well (maybe 2 days?)
Also now is the time for extensive testing on duality. Nothing will change unless it is proven there, that the suggested changes does not work.
In other words: If you want to change anything about the particular ship, log to duality and prove the proposed change is sub par or broken. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2494
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 08:17:00 -
[2290] - Quote
Roime wrote:Just stating a fact, mate, no more effort needed. Generally for a statement to be a "fact" it has to have some relation to reality. Mane 614
|
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:32:00 -
[2291] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:Here is what I would change the Domi to:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +15% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range, Velocity and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 5(-1) turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 425(+50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Still less damage, but better drone utility and now the Domi has a utility high for armor/shield repping or a neut. Overall it now becomes a decent fleet ship and a true drone boat. My changes are highlighted by _____.
This is interesting, it's still hard see how any of the Gallente line up can compete with the Rokh/Abaddon as fleet setups (Minmatar works because of artillery alpha).
Might need to lose a further turret for balance. May indirectly solve the drone control range problem by giving two free utility highs for DLA's that can be swapped for neuts for close range builds. Gives it a definite distinction against the Geddon.
The Domi badly needs at least 25 more bay if not another 50.
50% velocity bonus may be a little too much. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
213
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:44:00 -
[2292] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Drake Doe wrote: Let me put this in perspective, imagine if projectiles started taking cap (even as tiny as 1/3 of the draw of the appropriate hybrid weapon, which could be justified by them needing cap to track) would there not be a major uproar?
I would not complain at all if that was brouhght along same capacitor of gallente ships, and the MASSIVE damage advantage. I play this game for almost 7 years. And on all races (aldari less than others) when accountign my several characters. And I am yet to ONCE.. a SINGLE TIME.. get out of cap in a PVP fight (not counting POS shooting as a fight) unless I am being neutralized. The cap usage of balsters is not a huige deal at all. A single cycle of the MWD uses as much cap as you use in a small fight. As of now I prefer gallente ships a LOT more than minmatar ships (sicne the blaster buffs) What you fail to see is that the Mega already had cap issues. Now with the MINOR damage bonus (some even say nerf after the loss of drones) the Mega will become almost unusable due to cap issues. Bottomline is if they are going to take away the damage bonus for a RoF bonus then they need to also increase the CAP to keep up. My biggest complaints are with the updates 1) The Hyperion Armor Rep bonus; no one wants it but CCP says suck it up its broke and we are committed to force it on people even though we know active armor tanking sucks currently even after it was "balanced" 2) The Mega RoF bonus making it less cap stable than before and the loss of drones which really made it cool 3) I hate that there is now no 8 gun BS, the only 8 gun ship the Gallente have is the Talos 4) The Domi removing of the Hybrid bonus is HORRIBLE! If they would actually give a new bonus that was useful then it would be OK. Maybe increasing the Drone damage bonus to 12.5% and then add the tracking, optimal, velocity bonus. (A true drone boat) 5) Change the ugly domi model
If the mega nwo is unusable due to cap.. what you tell me about the new apoc? Or even the old abaddon (That used liek 3 tiems the cap of the megatron) ? |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 11:14:00 -
[2293] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:Here is what I would change the Domi to:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +15% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range, Velocity and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 5(-1) turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 425(+50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Still less damage, but better drone utility and now the Domi has a utility high for armor/shield repping or a neut. Overall it now becomes a decent fleet ship and a true drone boat. My changes are highlighted by _____. 50% velocity bonus may be a little too much.
i do agree 50% movement to drone would be a tad on the overkill but maby a default bounce to the hull with a 20% Drone Speed or something to that extent after all Gallent invented the drones and in the lore over half the Main Gallante fleet uses them why would Amarr have something that matches that as a Secondery system?
|
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
438
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 11:28:00 -
[2294] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If the mega nwo is unusable due to cap.. what you tell me about the new apoc? Or even the old abaddon (That used liek 3 tiems the cap of the megatron) ?
The thing is it's not unstable now because of cap. Teribad players unwilling to test changes on duality are posting "the sky is falling" style points loaded with utter bull ****.
I must be honest, this thread may be getting even worse than the resistance nerf thread when it comes to the level of player ignorance.
|
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 12:01:00 -
[2295] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If the mega nwo is unusable due to cap.. what you tell me about the new apoc? Or even the old abaddon (That used liek 3 tiems the cap of the megatron) ?
The thing is it's not unstable now because of cap. Teribad players unwilling to test changes on duality are posting "the sky is falling" style points loaded with utter bull ****. I must be honest, this thread may be getting even worse than the resistance nerf thread when it comes to the level of player ignorance.
i have never said the cap demand would make it unstable or unsable my statment has been that Ammo, Volly Damg, Duration AND cap usage are up for a Some Damg Addition, so the New mega vs the Old means the New one Puts out Less damg in short fights per Volly and only gets the advange in longer one's but then it uses more ammo to do this and also the cap usage is up on the prolonged fights due to the added rate of fire makeing the thing a rather Pointless mess
More ammo used (null and voied or faction) means grater cost at runing and more ammo needed per Fight
Less damg Per Volly means less overall Aplha meaning that Very importent First Hit is now weaker,
The Mega needs to stay in a Prolonged fight to use its RoF Bounce but the Longer the Fight is the more cap AND Ammo is used to Deal the damg, this means short fights it has lost DPS and Longer Fights it will suffer more on cap and Ammo usage so it only relly gets the damg buff to Mid range fights (ones that dont last to long but dont end to fast)
the drone loss is somewhat annyoing as iv always felt Gallent ships should be if anything the race to have a decent sized dronebay and badwith due to their Massive Relience on them (in Lore) so this is sort of a kick to it but then if it was a dedicated blaster platform you can let it slide for haveing shrunk i just dont Like the Iconi ship i have grown up in EvE geting screwd around like this
im still upset at finding out my Tristan is dead to me so i will fight tooth and claw to try and keep the Mega to somewhat it used to be.
i am happy and sad at the Hyperion lossing its 8 Turret status but its Damg buff i can live with at lest im still not sure what that Untily high would be used for or why it has a launcher hardpoint that and the Rep Buff could probly be spanked up but then people would probly cry its OP with tank and Spank
The Mega just looks like a debuff in all locations with an atemped smile saying no no its geting more damg... neglecting to point out that damg works on in time and cap loss and a higher ammo count costing more for slight damg up
say im a whiner but i dont feel like this is geting addresed as much as it should on that point.
- I will Fight for changed i support and againsed those that i dont like. i am after all a Gallnete Pilot. |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
440
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 12:06:00 -
[2296] - Quote
The alpha of the mega was never really anything that substantial to begin with... If you want alpha take a maelstrom or a nado, that's the end of the alpha debate.
As for the rest of your points...
The reality, which you seem to be ignoring (have you flown the ship on duality yet btw?) is that the megathron is plain better with the only exception being the loss of a heavy nuet which many players did not fit anyway due to cpu issues. The increase in cpu and the removal of the extra high means that you can fit a 5 slot tank w/o the need to fit a c-type adaptive.
Overall the ship is "better" in the vast majority of situations, I fail to understand how you don't realize this. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
176
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 12:09:00 -
[2297] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Drake Doe wrote:2 more drones won't make much of a difference, it'll just encourage pilots to use heavy drones instead of mediums, and they are not only destroyable dps but they're easy to kill with most bs weapons. 2 more drones will push it's heated dps to 1700ish while sporting the same tank that many people use today. No way is that balanced at all. So much gallente whine coming from people before they even test the changes, kind of sickening tbh. It's tank on Tq is noted as being lack luster compared to BSes more common in pvp other the rohk and abaddon. Now it puts out the dps that gallente ships should be doing, especially since if heavies are deployed outside 10km the ship you're attacking will have more than enough time to deploy smaller drones which can kill heavies with ease. Go do yourself a favor and run the new megathron against pretty much any of the close range non active BS out there. It's extremely clear that you have not tested the new changes. Another 2 Heavy drones would be absolutely over the top. If you so wish I'll run a megathron against your choice, see you on test. I'll do so, and prove that two more drones won't make it Op, or the current Mega with +3 damage mods would be op. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
440
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 12:14:00 -
[2298] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Drake Doe wrote:2 more drones won't make much of a difference, it'll just encourage pilots to use heavy drones instead of mediums, and they are not only destroyable dps but they're easy to kill with most bs weapons. 2 more drones will push it's heated dps to 1700ish while sporting the same tank that many people use today. No way is that balanced at all. So much gallente whine coming from people before they even test the changes, kind of sickening tbh. It's tank on Tq is noted as being lack luster compared to BSes more common in pvp other the rohk and abaddon. Now it puts out the dps that gallente ships should be doing, especially since if heavies are deployed outside 10km the ship you're attacking will have more than enough time to deploy smaller drones which can kill heavies with ease. Go do yourself a favor and run the new megathron against pretty much any of the close range non active BS out there. It's extremely clear that you have not tested the new changes. Another 2 Heavy drones would be absolutely over the top. If you so wish I'll run a megathron against your choice, see you on test. I'll do so, and prove that two more drones won't make it Op, or the current Mega with +3 damage mods would be op.
except that the current megathron with 3 mag stabs does like 120 dps less than the "new" megathron with 3x mag stabs, oh yeah, and you're having to drop to a 4 slot tank instead of a 5 slot which means your resistances suffer, or your armor value suffers. Comparing the current megathron with 3x mag stabs to the "new" megathron with 3x mag stabs and 5 ogresIIs is rather moronic. If you can't understand why then this conversation is beyond you. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:07:00 -
[2299] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote: i have never said the cap demand would make it unstable or unsable my statment has been that Ammo, Volly Damg, Duration AND cap usage are up for a Some Damg Addition, so the New mega vs the Old means the New one Puts out Less damg in short fights per Volly and only gets the advange in longer one's but then it uses more ammo to do this and also the cap usage is up on the prolonged fights due to the added rate of fire makeing the thing a rather Pointless mess
More ammo used (null and voied or faction) means grater cost at runing and more ammo needed per Fight
Less damg Per Volly means less overall Aplha meaning that Very importent First Hit is now weaker,
The Mega needs to stay in a Prolonged fight to use its RoF Bounce but the Longer the Fight is the more cap AND Ammo is used to Deal the damg, this means short fights it has lost DPS and Longer Fights it will suffer more on cap and Ammo usage so it only relly gets the damg buff to Mid range fights (ones that dont last to long but dont end to fast)
Yes, the Mega is going to be doing less alpha damage (and less per volley) but it's still hitting hard FASTER. The rate of fire bonus applies equally to short and long fights, granted in longer flights its staying power becomes tested. The added cost of ammunition is annoying more than significant, and the cap draw will not likely have much of an effect on anybody. In small scale engagements things should be dying before you cap out. In large scale engagements there's always the Broadcast for Capacitor button.
While I see where you're coming from, I don't think it's too big of a deal and the Mega's extra mag stab will compound its new DPS advantage.
Quote:the drone loss is somewhat annyoing as iv always felt Gallent ships should be if anything the race to have a decent sized dronebay and badwith due to their Massive Relience on them (in Lore) so this is sort of a kick to it but then if it was a dedicated blaster platform you can let it slide for haveing shrunk i just dont Like the Iconi ship i have grown up in EvE geting screwd around like this
Again, the Megathron gets 25mbit/s extra bandwidth over the other Attack Battleships, which is in keeping with Gallente Drone Superiority. The Hyperion gets the Navythron bandwidth/bay (which is phenomenal) and the Dominix... sorta kinda lost to the Armageddon in the Drone department. But hey, 2 out of 3, right?
Quote:i am happy and sad at the Hyperion lossing its 8 Turret status but its Damg buff i can live with at lest im still not sure what that Untily high would be used for or why it has a launcher hardpoint that and the Rep Buff could probly be spanked up but then people would probly cry its OP with tank and Spank
I've yet to lose to another battleship solo in Duality with the Hyperion. Dual rep single booster. It's actually really nice (at least the build I made for it, it's slightly unorthodox). The loss of the two turrets hits our hearts more than it hits the ship, as it performs phenomenally. A smartbomb helps protect it from drones and lets you focus your real firepower on the enemy ship. Tweak your fit a bit and you can slap a neut on it.. The tank is okay but still has all the issues associated with active armor tanking. Once active armor tanking is smoothed out I think we'll find the Hyperion sitting on a throne of small gang pvp ship debris.
Save the drones! |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:15:00 -
[2300] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:
Yes, the Mega is going to be doing less alpha damage (and less per volley) but it's still hitting hard FASTER. The rate of fire bonus applies equally to short and long fights, granted in longer flights its staying power becomes tested. The added cost of ammunition is annoying more than significant, and the cap draw will not likely have much of an effect on anybody. In small scale engagements things should be dying before you cap out. In large scale engagements there's always the Broadcast for Capacitor button.
While I see where you're coming from, I don't think it's too big of a deal and the Mega's extra mag stab will compound its new DPS advantage.
so the gain of its new low is to make for the loss of the ships buff so what was the poing of giveing it RoF if the new low has to be used as a Mag Stab ? sure it could allow for more mixing it up but at the end of the day what are people relly after more damg output so whats that new low 99% of the time gona be a 3rd Mag Stab. ...so we got rid of the damg buff to stick a RoF and another mag stab on? makes sens this dose not. oh and we upped your ammo usege so makeing you have to hall more Null or Voied to stay for the same time.
ExAstra wrote:
I've yet to lose to another battleship solo in Duality with the Hyperion. Dual rep single booster. It's actually really nice (at least the build I made for it, it's slightly unorthodox). The loss of the two turrets hits our hearts more than it hits the ship, as it performs phenomenally. A smartbomb helps protect it from drones and lets you focus your real firepower on the enemy ship. Tweak your fit a bit and you can slap a neut on it.. The tank is okay but still has all the issues associated with active armor tanking. Once active armor tanking is smoothed out I think we'll find the Hyperion sitting on a throne of small gang pvp ship debris.
as i said i am happy with the current Hyperion i am however sad that we no longer have an 8 Gun ship... i mean the talos has them so why are the bigger gunners useing less gun? makes little sens to me but i can live with it's just odd thats all.
reminds me can the art team fix the Myrms hardpoints its silly that it has 6 hards and only 5 slots. makes it look silly add on if you are gona reduce the Hypers Turrets down make sure you bludy skin it with 7 points if that means moveing the turrets or what ever. its gona look muppety with how the guns are layedout at current with only 6 guns and 1 extra with a blank hardpoint |
|
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
440
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:35:00 -
[2301] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote: so the gain of its new low is to make for the loss of the ships buff so what was the poing of giveing it RoF if the new low has to be used as a Mag Stab ? sure it could allow for more mixing it up but at the end of the day what are people relly after more damg output so whats that new low 99% of the time gona be a 3rd Mag Stab. ...so we got rid of the damg buff to stick a RoF and another mag stab on? makes sens this dose not. oh and we upped your ammo usege so makeing you have to hall more Null or Voied to stay for the same time.
as i said i am happy with the current Hyperion i am however sad that we no longer have an 8 Gun ship... i mean the talos has them so why are the bigger gunners useing less gun? makes little sens to me but i can live with it's just odd thats all.
reminds me can the art team fix the Myrms hardpoints its silly that it has 6 hards and only 5 slots. makes it look silly add on if you are gona reduce the Hypers Turrets down make sure you bludy skin it with 7 points if that means moveing the turrets or what ever. its gona look muppety with how the guns are layedout at current with only 6 guns and 1 extra with a blank hardpoint
I really do not understand your first point, like at all. The ship bonus does more dps than a dmg bonus and we get another low for more dps. Overall Gun dps has jumped by like 200 dps, which is allot... As for the ammo usage? You've got to make a trade off if you're going to be getting a bonus that does more dps. all in all, I'd much rather have a rof bonus than a dmg bonus on the new thron. The loss of 50m3 bandwidth was mandatory to keep this ship within reasonable levels of balance. All in all, the megathron has been buffed in all but the most specific situations where a heavy nuet was needed.
About the hyperion... Your statement shows your obvious bias to the situation. The new hyperion is OP, there really is not much of a way to argue against that. It gets 1100+ dps, 125/175 bandwith, 5 mids for dual cap injectors, and the potential to sport 3k+ tripple rep tanks while utilizing full tack, something the mael is not capable of doing.
All in all, your posts stink of baddie syndrome.
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:47:00 -
[2302] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:ExAstra wrote:
Yes, the Mega is going to be doing less alpha damage (and less per volley) but it's still hitting hard FASTER. The rate of fire bonus applies equally to short and long fights, granted in longer flights its staying power becomes tested. The added cost of ammunition is annoying more than significant, and the cap draw will not likely have much of an effect on anybody. In small scale engagements things should be dying before you cap out. In large scale engagements there's always the Broadcast for Capacitor button.
While I see where you're coming from, I don't think it's too big of a deal and the Mega's extra mag stab will compound its new DPS advantage.
so the gain of its new low is to make for the loss of the ships buff so what was the poing of giveing it RoF if the new low has to be used as a Mag Stab ? sure it could allow for more mixing it up but at the end of the day what are people relly after more damg output so whats that new low 99% of the time gona be a 3rd Mag Stab. ...so we got rid of the damg buff to stick a RoF and another mag stab on? makes sens this dose not. oh and we upped your ammo usege so makeing you have to hall more Null or Voied to stay for the same time.
How on earth is the new Megathron with the same tank, higher base DPS, and +1 Mag Stab (read: even more frag power) a nerf? How? Because it lost 2 heavy drones?
Please. Save the drones! |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:20:00 -
[2303] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jeen Seeker wrote:
so the gain of its new low is to make for the loss of the ships buff so what was the poing of giveing it RoF if the new low has to be used as a Mag Stab ? sure it could allow for more mixing it up but at the end of the day what are people relly after more damg output so whats that new low 99% of the time gona be a 3rd Mag Stab. ...so we got rid of the damg buff to stick a RoF and another mag stab on? makes sens this dose not. oh and we upped your ammo usege so makeing you have to hall more Null or Voied to stay for the same time.
How on earth is the new Megathron with the same tank, higher base DPS, and +1 Mag Stab (read: even more frag power) a nerf? How? Because it lost 2 heavy drones? Please.
I will support this with some numbers.
Imagine a situation where the only change to megathron is moving the utility high to low slot and reduction of bandwidth down to 75 kbit/s.
Gun DPS before change: 974 with void Drone damage before change: 317
Gun damage after change with 3rd magstab: 1096 (+122) with void Drone damage after change (3 ogres): 190 (-127) Drone damage after change (max combo): 210 (-107)
The movement of utility high to low pretty much evens out the drone dps loss. In this light the ROF bonus is additional DPS at the expense of higher ammunition consumption. |
Fade Azura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
161
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:49:00 -
[2304] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:Here is what I would change the Domi to:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +15% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range, Velocity and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 5(-1) turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 425(+50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Still less damage, but better drone utility and now the Domi has a utility high for armor/shield repping or a neut. Overall it now becomes a decent fleet ship and a true drone boat. My changes are highlighted by _____. This is interesting, it's still hard see how any of the Gallente line up can compete with the Rokh/Abaddon as fleet setups (Minmatar works because of artillery alpha). Might need to lose a further turret for balance. May indirectly solve the drone control range problem by giving two free utility highs for DLA's that can be swapped for neuts for close range builds. Gives it a definite distinction against the Geddon. The Domi badly needs at least 25 more bay if not another 50. 50% velocity bonus may be a little too much.
Agreed and i think this is probably the best direction to go ... it seems more synchronus as well .. however instead of a veloicty bonus i would give it a 5-10% Drone control range bonus per level to further synchronize the ship with its intended role as a sentry sniper. the velocity bonus does nothing for sentries but the control range will help by freeing up the 2 utility highs. this is much more acceptable to me even at the loss of another turret slot. and this is coming from someone with all Large turret specs to 4. trust me i like my guns ... i like my drones more though =)
this way you can fit 4x turret and 2x DLA in highs and be competitive with Rokh's+Naga's in a sniper role with sentries being able to follow an attck target command to 120km roughly depending on skils (still need Sebo's to make this work)... the 15% to drone dmg really is needed instead of 10% since even with the optimal range bonus and if u fitted additional Omni's u are not going to be using gardes at this range since its still well outside opitmal for them.
but the gardes would be more inline with the antimatter rokh+Naga ranges and dmg so it would have some compareability dmg projection wise.and the dominix would have something that its better then the geddon at aka being higher drone damage and application..
A higher bay would allow you to mix up several sets of sentries so it not so predictable and means your DPS isnt so easily destroyed.
this seems much more streamlined in my eyes .. but still this is going to be an immobile sitting duck fleet while sentries are deployed regardless.
now to make this work you need to allow ships to stay aligned while not moving ... not sure if this is an easy fix or not. otherwise this is still going to be subpar due to game mechanics
the scoop range should be extended a bit. if i deploy sentries right after coming out of warp in my domi i can still float past them out of docking range before i come to complete stop. another thing that would help droneboats in general alot would allow drones to autodock if u initiate a warp and they are in docking range.
without that i can easily see a FC warping the sentry fleet thats aligned at 0 speed(if this can be fixed) and losing all their sentries.
|
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 17:32:00 -
[2305] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:
I will support this with some numbers.
Imagine a situation where the only change to megathron is moving the utility high to low slot and reduction of bandwidth down to 75 kbit/s.
Gun DPS before change: 974 with void Drone damage before change: 317
Gun damage after change with 3rd magstab: 1096 (+122) with void Drone damage after change (3 ogres): 190 (-127) Drone damage after change (max combo): 210 (-107)
The movement of utility high to low pretty much evens out the drone dps loss. In this light the ROF bonus is additional DPS at the expense of higher ammunition consumption.
Also Cap and Lower First Strike (alpha) with the problem of RoF religates a ship to be less effective in the shorter fights that the Mega is know for an better in a Prolonged fight but then the issue of aditional Cap Drain out comes in to it.
This is my last post on this the Mega is Gaining so little DPS for some Conditinal Damg i am arguing that RoF is not a good thing for the Mega,
my last post on this.
- Jeen Seeker |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 20:21:00 -
[2306] - Quote
Attack battleships
I may post this in every thread.
Anybody feel these are a little lacking in their role.
The Mega may be an exception due to itGÇÖs opportunity for massive close range DPS but generally these feel like they should be on the move and yet seem to have cap problems doing so, this is not so much a problem for combat battleships that may end up in scram range or as fleet platforms where mobility is just one factor.
Attack frigates have a role bonus over combat frigates, this helps them maintain tackle and speed by reducing the cap draw of propulsion disruption modules. At battleship level such a bonus would make very little difference but at battleship level, no ship can run a Microwarpdrive for any significant period of time.
How would people feel about a cap reduction role bonus for propulsion modules for all Attack Battleships? Even something as strong as 50% or even 75% to enable these ships to stay on the move (as much as battleships can) without constant cap boosting.
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Gunther Nhilathok
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 20:55:00 -
[2307] - Quote
If you're trying to remove tiers, then why are you reinforcing the idea that the hyperion should be better than the megathron by nerfing the mega and buffing the hype? |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 21:17:00 -
[2308] - Quote
Gunther Nhilathok wrote:If you're trying to remove tiers, then why are you reinforcing the idea that the hyperion should be better than the megathron by nerfing the mega and buffing the hype?
its tiers by disguise :P attack role means tier 1 EHP and at battleship level attack just means slightly less brick like... :) 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
340
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 22:51:00 -
[2309] - Quote
Gunther Nhilathok wrote:If you're trying to remove tiers, then why are you reinforcing the idea that the hyperion should be better than the megathron by nerfing the mega and buffing the hype? Yeah, the hyperion is faster and has a lower signature radius. It also has 8 lows and a great targeting range. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 01:55:00 -
[2310] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:Here is what I would change the Domi to:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +15% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range, Velocity and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 5(-1) turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 425(+50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Still less damage, but better drone utility and now the Domi has a utility high for armor/shield repping or a neut. Overall it now becomes a decent fleet ship and a true drone boat. My changes are highlighted by _____. This is interesting, it's still hard see how any of the Gallente line up can compete with the Rokh/Abaddon as fleet setups (Minmatar works because of artillery alpha). Might need to lose a further turret for balance. May indirectly solve the drone control range problem by giving two free utility highs for DLA's that can be swapped for neuts for close range builds. Gives it a definite distinction against the Geddon. The Domi badly needs at least 25 more bay if not another 50. 50% velocity bonus may be a little too much. Agreed and i think this is probably the best direction to go ... it seems more synchronus as well .. however instead of a veloicty bonus i would give it a 5-10% Drone control range bonus per level to further synchronize the ship with its intended role as a sentry sniper. the velocity bonus does nothing for sentries but the control range will help by freeing up the 2 utility highs. this is much more acceptable to me even at the loss of another turret slot. and this is coming from someone with all Large turret specs to 4. trust me i like my guns ... i like my drones more though =) this way you can fit 4x turret and 2x DLA in highs and be competitive with Rokh's+Naga's in a sniper role with sentries being able to follow an attck target command to 120km roughly depending on skils (still need Sebo's to make this work)... the 15% to drone dmg really is needed instead of 10% since even with the optimal range bonus and if u fitted additional Omni's u are not going to be using gardes at this range since its still well outside opitmal for them. but the gardes would be more inline with the antimatter rokh+Naga ranges and dmg so it would have some compareability dmg projection wise.and the dominix would have something that its better then the geddon at aka being higher drone damage and application.. A higher bay would allow you to mix up several sets of sentries so it not so predictable and means your DPS isnt so easily destroyed. this seems much more streamlined in my eyes .. but still this is going to be an immobile sitting duck fleet while sentries are deployed regardless. now to make this work you need to allow ships to stay aligned while not moving ... not sure if this is an easy fix or not. otherwise this is still going to be subpar due to game mechanics the scoop range should be extended a bit. if i deploy sentries right after coming out of warp in my domi i can still float past them out of docking range before i come to complete stop. another thing that would help droneboats in general alot would allow drones to autodock if u initiate a warp and they are in docking range. without that i can easily see a FC warping the sentry fleet thats aligned at 0 speed(if this can be fixed) and losing all their sentries.
Issue of why i want velocity is so that the changes don't only effect sentry drones. The layout that I have give players the option to add a drone range module in their high. The above ship still does less DPS than the current version of the Domi but is much more interesting, versatile and fleet worthy than the current proposed CCP version. Though as some have said maybe the 50% velocity bonus is a tad to high and maybe it should only be 25%. I do hope CCP looks at my proposal and considers it. |
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Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 02:00:00 -
[2311] - Quote
Why is everyone talking about how now you get this magical 3rd Mag stabilizer with the new Mega. I have always had 3 and this will not change anything. In the version I used I also fitted a missile launcher in the high slot 8th slot. So now for me I lost 2 drones, a missile launcher, and always used 3 mag stabs. I fail to see how the new version gives me really any more DPS. I think I actually lost DPS and gained some resists on my tank. Overall I love the hyper changes (other than the stupid active armor bonus), don't really like the mega changes (I think they need more drones), and despise the horrid domi changes.
Just my 2 cents. |
Pankora t'Pastamancer
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 05:30:00 -
[2312] - Quote
The dominix bonuses seems .. weak. The reason I say this is because of the split between the turret platform and the drone platform. Now that the damage bonus has been removed from the turret side, and the drone platform has been given a range bonus, the ship's role preference will be moved towards a sniping role. With this, the effectiveness of the turret side is mitigated even more as it doesn't have the range of the now drones, leaving the ship as a mediocre drone sniper.
Opinion: The drone damage bonus should be increased in light of the new changes, to make up for the incoherency. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 06:08:00 -
[2313] - Quote
Pankora t'Pastamancer wrote:The dominix bonuses seems .. weak. The reason I say this is because of the split between the turret platform and the drone platform. Now that the damage bonus has been removed from the turret side, and the drone platform has been given a range bonus, the ship's role preference will be moved towards a sniping role. With this, the effectiveness of the turret side is mitigated even more as it doesn't have the range of the now drones, leaving the ship as a mediocre drone sniper.
Opinion: The drone damage bonus should be increased in light of the new changes, to make up for the incoherency. Fleet sentry drone snipers can't work in a meta that requires snipers to be mobile, until and unless sentries can follow the ship instead of only being able to sit in space. Meanwhile, a big drone damage buff may well render the Domi OP in closer range engagements where it can actually bring both guns and drones to bear.
New Domi will be at least as good as it was before at PVE, and most likely better. As for PVP, it's not that the changes have made Domi any worse, on the contrary it's probably a slight improvement, but that the consensus is that CCP gave a lot of the Domi's niche to the Armageddon and this change doesn't really carve out NEW possibilities.
...Unless someone actually does make sniper sentry Domi work somehow... |
Naso Aya
EVE University Ivy League
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 06:13:00 -
[2314] - Quote
What about something like a bonus to drone speed/tracking? |
Perihelion Olenard
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 11:13:00 -
[2315] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:Why is everyone talking about how now you get this magical 3rd Mag stabilizer with the new Mega. I have always had 3 and this will not change anything. In the version I used I also fitted a missile launcher in the high slot 8th slot. So now for me I lost 2 drones, a missile launcher, and always used 3 mag stabs. I fail to see how the new version gives me really any more DPS. I think I actually lost DPS and gained some resists on my tank. Overall I love the hyper changes (other than the stupid active armor bonus), don't really like the mega changes (I think they need more drones), and despise the horrid domi changes.
Just my 2 cents. You're forgetting the offensive bonus change. Instead of a damage bonus it gets a rate of fire bonus. It provides more blaster DPS than before which makes the magnetic field stabilizers more effective. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 13:13:00 -
[2316] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:Why is everyone talking about how now you get this magical 3rd Mag stabilizer with the new Mega. I have always had 3 and this will not change anything. In the version I used I also fitted a missile launcher in the high slot 8th slot. So now for me I lost 2 drones, a missile launcher, and always used 3 mag stabs. I fail to see how the new version gives me really any more DPS. I think I actually lost DPS and gained some resists on my tank. Overall I love the hyper changes (other than the stupid active armor bonus), don't really like the mega changes (I think they need more drones), and despise the horrid domi changes.
Just my 2 cents. You're forgetting the offensive bonus change. Instead of a damage bonus it gets a rate of fire bonus. It provides more blaster DPS than before which makes the magnetic field stabilizers more effective.
I am tracking that the new bonus gives a 33% damage bonus instead of the previous 25%. Though this comes at the loss of two drones and a missile launcher. So overall it's not really a change to damage at a and actually gives the Mega less versatility. |
Leviathan9
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:49:00 -
[2317] - Quote
Why nerf the Mega's drone space? What was wrong with having 5 heavy drones.. I dislike you nerfing the Mega.. |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:36:00 -
[2318] - Quote
I posted a couple of weeks ago, and now I see that "my feedback" hasn't done a damn of difference. Yeah, I'm talking about the Domi.
First of all, as some one already mentioned, why even bother making a "Sniper" when it's "guns" won't shoot past 60km. I need 3 modules just to make the damn ship target and activate the drones at 100 + range - sebo and 2 drone range control modules. Some sniper. In fact the shortest ranged sentry drone(garde) will be able to hit beyond the drone control range. Talk about idiots bonus.
Second - how stupid is it to have a sniper which can forget it's guns in space? You move 5 km and forget about getting your drones. Also forget aligning to a planet, sorry all our dps is gone now, we're aligning.
Why change s#it which isn't broken? I never heard anyone complain that the domi is overpowered, this most gallente of all gallente ships should be returned to it's previous glory!!!!!
Look you have 115 pages worth of complaints about the domi. Change it the hell back already ! |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
1571
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:29:00 -
[2319] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote: Look you have 115 pages worth of complaints about the domi. Change it the hell back already !
Quite. Unfortunately, after chucking out the fixes to the megathron and hyperion, rise vanished. I doubt the changes are actually up for debate now - it's been weeks. Sig'd.-áGallente FW best FW. |
Heriom
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:51:00 -
[2320] - Quote
This thread has entered Reinforced mode and Is no longer attackable until after the release of Odyssey. (Yes, CCP Rise modified the stront-bay) |
|
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
187
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 23:06:00 -
[2321] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:Why is everyone talking about how now you get this magical 3rd Mag stabilizer with the new Mega. I have always had 3 and this will not change anything. In the version I used I also fitted a missile launcher in the high slot 8th slot. So now for me I lost 2 drones, a missile launcher, and always used 3 mag stabs. I fail to see how the new version gives me really any more DPS. I think I actually lost DPS and gained some resists on my tank. Overall I love the hyper changes (other than the stupid active armor bonus), don't really like the mega changes (I think they need more drones), and despise the horrid domi changes.
Just my 2 cents. You're forgetting the offensive bonus change. Instead of a damage bonus it gets a rate of fire bonus. It provides more blaster DPS than before which makes the magnetic field stabilizers more effective. I am tracking that the new bonus gives a 33% damage bonus instead of the previous 25%. Though this comes at the loss of two drones and a missile launcher. So overall it's not really a change to damage at a and actually gives the Mega less versatility.
This is what I thought as well but remember that's 33% to your unmodded dps. Adding the mag stabs means you're modifying a larger figure than you were with the 25% damage bonus, and thus it stacks even better. That Jerhick dude posted images of his dps with the fits from the current mega and the one on the test server.
All that said, I don't think it would be overpowered to give it back its drones. In order to do that massive dps it has to go into the optimal of almost every offensive mod in the game. |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
1572
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 21:57:00 -
[2322] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote: This is what I thought as well but remember that's 33% to your unmodded dps. Adding the mag stabs means you're modifying a larger figure than you were with the 25% damage bonus, and thus it stacks even better. That Jerhick dude posted images of his dps with the fits from the current mega and the one on the test server.
All that said, I don't think it would be overpowered to give it back its drones. In order to do that massive dps it has to go into the optimal of almost every offensive mod in the game.
Agreed - the mega having its drones back would be a nice change and would help it out a lot given how short its range is. Sig'd.-áGallente FW best FW. |
Lekgoa
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 23:29:00 -
[2323] - Quote
The domi changes are pretty lackluster. It will have relatively low on-paper DPS with any setup, and without major changes to drone AI its applied DPS will be abysmal. I agree with the posts suggesting a bigger damage bonus. The range/tracking bonus is pretty worthless because for dedicated sentry setups the domi has plenty of mid slots for omnis. Heavy drones can't apply DPS to anything that isn't webbed or stationary to begin with, so they don't benefit from the new bonus.
Why not give it a bonus to drone EWAR effects? Something like 10% to drone EWAR strength and 10% to drone optimal range per level. Hell, make it 15% while you're at it. With a little extra drone bay, that would give the domi back some of the versatility it's losing with the new changes. It would also be in line with the Armageddon changes. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Last Resort.
446
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 23:39:00 -
[2324] - Quote
BTW, it would be interesting, to rebalance gallente and caldari after this... ftw! Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 22:09:00 -
[2325] - Quote
Somebody already said that drone control range shouldn't affect sentries, since they sit right next to your fat unmoving ass. It's a whole different story if you had to command drones that are some 100 km away. If this change is made and the domi doesn't have to lose 2 high slots just to use the sentries "sniping" ability and just a mid for a sebo I can see the change as a good thing.
As it is now it's nothing but a nerf. |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
102
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 14:11:00 -
[2326] - Quote
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:Bigg Gun wrote: Look you have 115 pages worth of complaints about the domi. Change it the hell back already !
Quite. Unfortunately, after chucking out the fixes to the megathron and hyperion, rise vanished. I doubt the changes are actually up for debate now - it's been weeks.
They don't litsen because the current dominix is a peice of garbage, it embodies everything wrong with oldcshool ship designs. Split weaponsystems, insufficient fittings and options to capitalize on either very well. It's basically just a weaker megathron with 5 midslots now. We don't need three sub 20k gank blasterboats in the gallente lineup where two are only used with plates to camp in low/highsec and one is used with links for PVP videos.
Most dominixes today in the practical sense are equipped for using sentries and these changes will be insanely good. We might finally see a gallente presence in Battleship fleets. Sentries will have better range and tracking than pulse laser fits but they leave you with alot less mobility as a compromise.
Tiericide on the battleship level was much better than on the BC/Cruiser level as the roles are somewhat different now without going outside each races traditional strengths. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 15:16:00 -
[2327] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:Bigg Gun wrote: Look you have 115 pages worth of complaints about the domi. Change it the hell back already !
Quite. Unfortunately, after chucking out the fixes to the megathron and hyperion, rise vanished. I doubt the changes are actually up for debate now - it's been weeks. They don't litsen because the current dominix is a peice of garbage, it embodies everything wrong with oldcshool ship designs. Split weaponsystems, insufficient fittings and options to capitalize on either very well. It's basically just a weaker megathron with 5 midslots now. We don't need three sub 20k gank blasterboats in the gallente lineup where two are only used with plates to camp in low/highsec and one is used with links for PVP videos. Most dominixes today in the practical sense are equipped for using sentries and these changes will be insanely good. We might finally see a gallente presence in Battleship fleets. Sentries will have better range and tracking than pulse laser fits but they leave you with alot less mobility as a compromise. Tiericide on the battleship level was much better than on the BC/Cruiser level as the roles are somewhat different now without going outside each races traditional strengths.
A massive damage nerf and a fairly useless skill gained does nothing to make the domi any better. This current ship is a disaster. |
Perihelion Olenard
157
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 16:21:00 -
[2328] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote: A massive damage nerf and a fairly useless skill gained does nothing to make the domi any better. This current ship is a disaster.
That's why I'll use the Armageddon, unless I need the extra med slot of the Dominix. I think the Armageddon has a more useful ship bonus for me. I don't like sentry drones. Plus, the Armageddon has a good amount of PG by comparison. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
500
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 16:34:00 -
[2329] - Quote
On the one hand, 3 drone damage mods and sentry drone damage rigs gives you 700dps from gardes.... On the other hand, that would be virtually impossible to use in most situations.
The domi doesn't feel like it'll be a fun ship to fly even though it might have some ******** and potentially OP stats.. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
180
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 18:23:00 -
[2330] - Quote
A drone buff would be better than changing the Dominix, what's wrong with making sentries follow the host ship at a close orbit? They only advantage over other snipers they have is not needing ammo which doesn't make up for them being destructible and stationary. I can live in content with one of those drawbacks but with both it's too much for sentries to be viable on subcaps without massive bay "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
|
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 00:06:00 -
[2331] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:A drone buff would be better than changing the Dominix, what's wrong with making sentries follow the host ship at a close orbit? They only advantage over other snipers they have is not needing ammo which doesn't make up for them being destructible and stationary. I can live in content with one of those drawbacks but with both it's too much for sentries to be viable on subcaps without massive bay The problem with your idea is that it makes sense and sounds easy to implement. |
sq0
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 10:14:00 -
[2332] - Quote
Sooo, after years of complaining about galente guns to be inferrior to others (except some veeeeery special situations) We don't have 8 turret bs as other races do. We have just 7 crappy hybrid turrets max. COOL |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 10:59:00 -
[2333] - Quote
sq0 wrote:Sooo, after years of complaining about galente guns to be inferrior to others (except some veeeeery special situations) We don't have 8 turret bs as other races do. We have just 7 crappy hybrid turrets max. COOL
Coupled with the respective boni to the hulls that's more than we ever asked for :>
In all honesty: Hyperion (with 9 effective turrets)! It looks great and is imo the go-to-fun-battleship next to ASB-maels for all kinds of solo or almost-solo scenarios. Exactly how it should be. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2680
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:22:00 -
[2334] - Quote
Domi as a dedicated drone ship wrote:Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Effects and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 400 (+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km (+5) / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
So, expand the drone damage bonus to all drone effects, give a bit more drone bay and targeting range and that's it.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 14:03:00 -
[2335] - Quote
I can just see that sniper domi fleet getting hit by 5 bombers and losing all it's DPS... nice. Maybe if it came with carriers that could dispense sentries until the next bombing run ... Hahahahaha domi snipers. Even if drone control range didn't apply to sentries it would still be a bad idea. Unless you can somehow mount the sentries to the Domi hull and put them under the defense of their motherships sentry sniper fleet feels like a big fu-üking failure |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
442
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 14:18:00 -
[2336] - Quote
sq0 wrote:Sooo, after years of complaining about galente guns to be inferrior to others (except some veeeeery special situations) We don't have 8 turret bs as other races do. We have just 7 crappy hybrid turrets max. COOL
And one that has 60 guns, a 50% dmg bonus, and 125/175 drone bay...
Whiners need to stop whining and actually test out the changes. Gallente bs, other than the domi, are doing ******* great at the moment.
|
Avald Midular
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 14:58:00 -
[2337] - Quote
sq0 wrote:Sooo, after years of complaining about galente guns to be inferrior to others (except some veeeeery special situations) We don't have 8 turret bs as other races do. We have just 7 crappy hybrid turrets max. COOL
Funny, the Amarr are trying to get both their 8 turret BS's switched to 6. CCP has a nasty habit of not upping the PG and cap to compensate enough so believe me it's a blessing as long as the damage bonus is upped as well. |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company
36
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 15:49:00 -
[2338] - Quote
Please give the Hyperion new Hardpoint locations. My Condor costs less than that module! |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 16:21:00 -
[2339] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:On the one hand, 3 drone damage mods and sentry drone damage rigs gives you 700dps from gardes.... On the other hand, that would be virtually impossible to use in most situations.
The domi doesn't feel like it'll be a fun ship to fly even though it might have some ******** and potentially OP stats..
700 DPS for a BS is rather terrible.
The new Domi sucks! The sad part is CCP Rise has just disappeared. I really had hoped more from him and was actually excited when I heard he was going to work with them. Now he is doing the normal game Dev thing and is nowhere to be found. I think its pretty clear that the community really does not like the CCP nerf to the Domi. So my question how are they going to work to make it better? I posted along with many others some solid ideas. I wonder if CCP is even reading them. |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
443
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 16:34:00 -
[2340] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:Please give the Hyperion new Hardpoint locations.
This, this and more this. New layout look rather unfinished/sloppy.
|
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:38:00 -
[2341] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:sq0 wrote:Sooo, after years of complaining about galente guns to be inferrior to others (except some veeeeery special situations) We don't have 8 turret bs as other races do. We have just 7 crappy hybrid turrets max. COOL And one that has 6 guns, a 50% dmg bonus, and 125/175 drone bay... Whiners need to stop whining and actually test out the changes. Gallente bs, other than the domi, are doing ******* great at the moment. Truthful statement. The Hyperion is a Bison and the Megathron shines brighter than ever. Both (revamped) changes have done the ships justice. Save the drones! |
sq0
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:50:00 -
[2342] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:sq0 wrote:Sooo, after years of complaining about galente guns to be inferrior to others (except some veeeeery special situations) We don't have 8 turret bs as other races do. We have just 7 crappy hybrid turrets max. COOL And one that has 6 guns, a 50% dmg bonus, and 125/175 drone bay... Whiners need to stop whining and actually test out the changes. Gallente bs, other than the domi, are doing ******* great at the moment. Truthful statement. The Hyperion is a Bison and the Megathron shines brighter than ever. Both (revamped) changes have done the ships justice.
6x1.5 is still less tha 8*1.25, that other races have. OFC hyperion has extra heavy drone fleet, but it's less gunboat. Mega is gunboat, which will be stronger now, but still not fully dedicated, that 8*1.25 |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
510
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:48:00 -
[2343] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:On the one hand, 3 drone damage mods and sentry drone damage rigs gives you 700dps from gardes.... On the other hand, that would be virtually impossible to use in most situations.
The domi doesn't feel like it'll be a fun ship to fly even though it might have some ******** and potentially OP stats.. 700 DPS for a BS is rather terrible. The new Domi sucks! The sad part is CCP Rise has just disappeared. I really had hoped more from him and was actually excited when I heard he was going to work with them. Now he is doing the normal game Dev thing and is nowhere to be found. I think its pretty clear that the community really does not like the CCP nerf to the Domi. So my question how are they going to work to make it better? I posted along with many others some solid ideas. I wonder if CCP is even reading them. 700 dps with double the tracking of rails, with 70km optimal is pretty good for a battleship, and that's before any turrets, Not completely happy with the new domi either though, not at the new prices. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:43:00 -
[2344] - Quote
sq0 wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:sq0 wrote:Sooo, after years of complaining about galente guns to be inferrior to others (except some veeeeery special situations) We don't have 8 turret bs as other races do. We have just 7 crappy hybrid turrets max. COOL And one that has 6 guns, a 50% dmg bonus, and 125/175 drone bay... Whiners need to stop whining and actually test out the changes. Gallente bs, other than the domi, are doing ******* great at the moment. Truthful statement. The Hyperion is a Bison and the Megathron shines brighter than ever. Both (revamped) changes have done the ships justice. 6x1.5 is still less tha 8*1.25, that other races have. OFC hyperion has extra heavy drone fleet, but it's less gunboat. Mega is gunboat, which will be stronger now, but still not fully dedicated, that 8*1.25 I'm sorry, but what does that even matter? If the ship is GOOD why complain that it only has 9 effective turrets now as opposed to 10? The extra low slot drastically increases its usefulness and is what was required to bring it into the spotlight. But sacrificing a medium to do it was a bad case of fixing one part and breaking another. Sacrificing the epeen of 8 guns and a little bit of base damage has done the ship more good than you are giving it credit for. Save the drones! |
Goldensaver
Fishii Enterprise
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:55:00 -
[2345] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:I can just see that sniper domi fleet getting hit by 5 bombers and losing all it's DPS... nice. Maybe if it came with carriers that could dispense sentries until the next bombing run ... Hahahahaha domi snipers. Even if drone control range didn't apply to sentries it would still be a bad idea. Unless you can somehow mount the sentries to the Domi hull and put them under the defense of their motherships sentry sniper fleet feels like a big fu-üking failure
Are you implying that when you see a fleet of bombers uncloak and bombs get launched, you'll be stupid enough not to react in the 10+ (TiDi) seconds that you are given before bombs hit, and pull your sentries? I'll agree that this is not optimal as no other weapon system has to simply cease firing when bombs are launched (missiles aside) for fear that their damage will be destroyed. But the Dominix has a large drone bay, easily capable of fitting a few spares in case you do something stupid and just let your sentries get bombed.
And if you're saying that the enemy fleets will focus the Domi fleets drones for some reason, then why complain? They'll go down easy, but you can have a few spares in bay, and every second they're shooting your drones they aren't shooting your or your allies. |
Ranamar
Li3's Electric Cucumber Li3 Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 07:42:00 -
[2346] - Quote
I feel like the Megathron needs more CPU. It has enough grid to fit, for example, Neutron blasters, a Microwarpdrive, a Micro Jump Drive, a heavy cap booster, and a pair of plates, but it doesn't have enough CPU to fill the last mid and the rest of the lows without resorting to faction resist mods or a CPU rig. Similarly, I can put 425mm railguns with a MJD and a pair of plates and so on, but it again needs faction mods in the lows or else a co-processor, while it has oodles of grid left over if you don't put damage rigs on. Maybe I'm just spoiled by other ships which are nicely matched for grid and CPU... but it feels like it needs at least 5% more CPU. 30 CPU, bringing it up to an even 600 base, would be tantalizingly close to enough for anything you might reasonably want to fit without making a fitting mod, fitting rig, or large amounts of faction fittings obligatory. |
Nometh Xergent
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
202
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 07:42:00 -
[2347] - Quote
Re-design teh Domi and put a drone bay on it since its a droneboat With great responsibility comes great DPS.-á |
Perihelion Olenard
158
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:53:00 -
[2348] - Quote
Nometh Xergent wrote:Re-design teh Domi and put a drone bay on it since its a droneboat The current Dominix doesn't have a drone bay? I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 21:00:00 -
[2349] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Nometh Xergent wrote:Re-design teh Domi and put a drone bay on it since its a droneboat The current Dominix doesn't have a drone bay? He means like how the megathron, thorax, myrmidon, and algos have a drone bay, one you can actually see. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 22:10:00 -
[2350] - Quote
if were gona ask for a dronebay can we not just have the ship get a complet overhall to go along with this horribly bad rebuild of it ?
that said could a CCP staffer just post something here to at lest let us know you are reading our feedback ... at the mo it feels like we are complaing to the hevans about the rain that hasnt come its rather frustrating |
|
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 02:58:00 -
[2351] - Quote
Are you seriously thinking sentry domi sniper fleet is a good idea? Hell a disco rokh can kill all your DPS, and every time you hide your sentries from a bomber attack you're not doing DPS. I never said somebody will target the drones 1 by 1 and destroy them. There's AOE weapon which can pretty much cripple the whole fleet. I would've been shooting but there were bombers, I would've been shooting but there was lag from the 1000 drrones, I would've been shooting but we were aligning . As great DPS as a sentry domi is at 120 km I still think the drone's inherent clumsiness will make it at best a quirky and random weapon which any FC who knows what he's doing will exchange with ships with .... mounted guns. |
Sir Yiffles
Constantine. Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 14:14:00 -
[2352] - Quote
Don't listen to all these Negative Nancys whining about their precious megathron jack-of-all-trades, these are excellent changes that will breathe some life into the stale Gallente BS scene which was formerly comprised almost entirely of megathrons and sometimes a domi.
The megathron will come out of this much more focused than it was. I've always thought of the megathron as a gunship.
Sentry drones seem to fall out of line with the other long range damage options with the new domi but I'll enjoy that while it lasts. the D-scan of the future will be all RR sniper domis
|
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
104
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 17:17:00 -
[2353] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:A massive damage nerf and a fairly useless skill gained does nothing to make the domi any better. This current ship is a disaster.
Then use the goddamn megathron, seriously. Again, no race needs three short range gankboats as their main battleships.
It's so stupid to argue this.
Drake Doe wrote:A drone buff would be better than changing the Dominix, what's wrong with making sentries follow the host ship at a close orbit? They only advantage over other snipers they have is not needing ammo which doesn't make up for them being destructible and stationary. I can live in content with one of those drawbacks but with both it's too much for sentries to be viable on subcaps without massive bay
I don't have a link but i remember a dev blog from not to long ago stating that drones will get reworked. I also remember sentry drones getting a 200ms orbit velocity as a part of these changes. They won't make it to odyssey though as it seem right now. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 01:03:00 -
[2354] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Broxus Maximas wrote:A massive damage nerf and a fairly useless skill gained does nothing to make the domi any better. This current ship is a disaster. Then use the goddamn megathron, seriously. Again, no race needs three short range gankboats as their main battleships. It's so stupid to argue this. Drake Doe wrote:A drone buff would be better than changing the Dominix, what's wrong with making sentries follow the host ship at a close orbit? They only advantage over other snipers they have is not needing ammo which doesn't make up for them being destructible and stationary. I can live in content with one of those drawbacks but with both it's too much for sentries to be viable on subcaps without massive bay I don't have a link but i remember a dev blog from not to long ago stating that drones will get reworked. I also remember sentry drones getting a 200ms orbit velocity as a part of these changes. They won't make it to odyssey though as it seem right now.
IF they want to make it a drone boat give it bonuses that help all drones instead of just silly sentry bonuses. Yes its a disaster ship and there are many much better ways they could have done this ship. |
Ninavask
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:35:00 -
[2355] - Quote
So yeah when the hyp changes go through I'm just going to go ahead and self destruct it somewhere nice and quiet... Dr. Ninavask Revan CEO - Commander The Synenose Accord Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated. |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:36:00 -
[2356] - Quote
Ninavask wrote:So yeah when the hyp changes go through I'm just going to go ahead and self destruct it somewhere nice and quiet...
for its loss of guns?
if so do it in jita maby you can convice em if we flooded jita with 1million wrecks of hypers that we dont like it >.> could also add Mega's and Domis to that.
it is kida sad that we dont have a 8 Turret Blaster Boat anymore i would relly like to know why but i guess the will reply with some crap and escape the issue.
the Mega is worse off in this rebuild than it was before and the Domi looks to be the joker of the pack looks like it could be usefull till it starts laughing at you. then falls apart the only one that "looks" ok is the Hyper that said its lost 2 guns and got "some" damg... not overly world shakeing and now i have to relly ask are the 2 guns losst worth that extra drone damg.... with its hull ether way if your gona stick with 6 guns your Gona have to Change the bludy hardpoints more work for the art team i guess
Dear CCP Staff, Reply to your topics with feedback, explinations or idears that would make us all feel happyer with the direction you are currently trying to turn this Tub in.. caz when you point the ship at the cliff wall and say its gona be fine but dont let anyone know Everyone is gona soding Panic.
TLDR: UP DATE THE DAMN THREAD ALREDY.... With some FEED Back. |
Avald Midular
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:41:00 -
[2357] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:Ninavask wrote:So yeah when the hyp changes go through I'm just going to go ahead and self destruct it somewhere nice and quiet... for its loss of guns? if so do it in jita maby you can convice em if we flooded jita with 1million wrecks of hypers that we dont like it >.> could also add Mega's and Domis to that. it is kida sad that we dont have a 8 Turret Blaster Boat anymore i would relly like to know why but i guess the will reply with some crap and escape the issue. the Mega is worse off in this rebuild than it was before and the Domi looks to be the joker of the pack looks like it could be usefull till it starts laughing at you. then falls apart the only one that "looks" ok is the Hyper that said its lost 2 guns and "some" damg... not overly world shakeing and now i have to relly ask are the 2 guns losst worth that extra drone damg.... with its hull ether way if your gona stick with 6 guns your Gona have to Change the bludy hardpoints more work for the art team i guess Dear CCP Staff, Reply to your topics with feedback, explinations or idears that would make us all feel happyer with the direction you are currently trying to turn this Tub in.. caz when you point the ship at the cliff wall and say its gona be fine but dont let anyone know Everyone is gona soding Panic. TLDR: UP DATE THE DAMN THREAD ALREDY.... With some FEED Back.
Please take the Amarr 8 turret ships, we've been trying to get them to change em like they did the Gallente. All they do is suck more cap and they never adjust the PG/CPU up enough to compensate. I would count it a blessing as long as the ship bonus is increased to compensate. |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:46:00 -
[2358] - Quote
Avald Midular wrote:
Please take the Amarr 8 turret ships, we've been trying to get them to change em like they did the Gallente. All they do is suck more cap and they never adjust the PG/CPU up enough to compensate. I would count it a blessing as long as the ship bonus is increased to compensate.
yes they do have this odd fear at adding or subtracking PG/CPU and cap dont they? its almost like they dont relly try doing the math for the fiting and myea that said if i recall the Amarr are geting a Big change to their guns arnt they? aka reduction in PG Cap ect or did they change that plan to? |
Avald Midular
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:57:00 -
[2359] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:Avald Midular wrote:
Please take the Amarr 8 turret ships, we've been trying to get them to change em like they did the Gallente. All they do is suck more cap and they never adjust the PG/CPU up enough to compensate. I would count it a blessing as long as the ship bonus is increased to compensate.
yes they do have this odd fear at adding or subtracking PG/CPU and cap dont they? its almost like they dont relly try doing the math for the fiting and myea that said if i recall the Amarr are geting a Big change to their guns arnt they? aka reduction in PG Cap ect or did they change that plan to?
There's a thread about it here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224896&find=unread |
Dr Ted Kaper
Patriot Security Services
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 03:13:00 -
[2360] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
I don't like this change for the domi but that is true, and it might make the rohk obsolete because of this crazy damage projection. |
|
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 06:32:00 -
[2361] - Quote
Dr Ted Kaper wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
I don't like this change for the domi but that is true, and it might make the rohk obsolete because of this crazy damage projection. Don't forget to add an extra Sensor Booster to actually let you target out that far. Rokh has 30% more targeting range than Dominix. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 06:36:00 -
[2362] - Quote
Tom Guhl wrote:Dr Ted Kaper wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
I don't like this change for the domi but that is true, and it might make the rohk obsolete because of this crazy damage projection. Don't forget to add an extra Sensor Booster to actually let you target out that far. Rokh has 30% more targeting range than Dominix. You forgot the 4 DLA IIs. Save the drones! |
Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:54:00 -
[2363] - Quote
Ninavask wrote:So yeah when the hyp changes go through I'm just going to go ahead and self destruct it somewhere nice and quiet...
I'f you're gonna post a beyond-stupid comment. atleast give so information as of why you'd self destruct it.
Hype and Domi looks alot better now, not really looked into Mega but does it have any cpu problems ? considering the extra low and barely any extra cpu |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2744
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:00:00 -
[2364] - Quote
Hype is the clear winner, it'll actually be usable for a number of things, Domi has it's strengths at the expense of losing it's versatility, Mega is nerfed.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:13:00 -
[2365] - Quote
Roime wrote:Hype is the clear winner, it'll actually be usable for a number of things, Domi has it's strengths at the expense of losing it's versatility, Mega is nerfed.
I don't see the nerf for the mega, since everything the new mega can't do as good as the old one, you can do with the new hype just as good. The extra turret dps and the extra low are a very nice improvement if you look at it as a fleet ship. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:18:00 -
[2366] - Quote
New Hyperion has been caught power tanking 4+ battleships on Sisi. I mean it didn't win the fight but damn was it hard to kill. New Mega is mostly okay. Save the drones! |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:35:00 -
[2367] - Quote
I don't see how the mega was nerfed, yes it lost it's drones but the fact is it probably wasn't carrying heavy drones in the first place since it already had heavy hitters in the form of it's guns and needed protection only from small ships and probably carried ECM and light / medium drones anyway. And the low slot is always handy, now you don't have to wonder, do I put DPS or do I put tank, now you can have both. Hyperion lost DPS , I think an effective gun worth, but it got heavies and a low slot and an utility high. So it became effectively a mega from before without the tracking and with repping bonus. I would like to hope, that this particular combination will be effective against something other than BS, since we won't be seen a lot of BS's in the coming days, what with the 100 mil versions becoming 200+ and so on...still the guns will now spend less cap and it has an extra low slot... lets say it didn't get shafted. Domi had it's damage nerfed, now it's only logical use is as an immobile platform, a type of a POS weapon which you don't have to anchor. Ohh and it can loose it's DPS very easily, with low alpha, and not that high EHP. All of eve is trying to be as mobile as possible, domi has become a gate camper...excellent. NOT ! |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
448
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:37:00 -
[2368] - Quote
Roime wrote:Hype is the clear winner, it'll actually be usable for a number of things, Domi has it's strengths at the expense of losing it's versatility, Mega is nerfed.
Hyperion needs a nerf to its drone bay, 125/125 is more than enough.
I don't really see the mega as being nerfed... It gets more dps, a tiny bit less ehp, a modest amount more speed, and much more of its dps weighted in guns rather than drones.
IMO, they should swap the megathron and the domi's roles. Megathron should gain ehp, lose speed, and be resigned as a combat BS. Dome should be granted mobility and be resigned an attack BS. I personally think drones work better in the "attack role" over the "combat" role anyway. A fancy new model that looks somewhat sleek would be the kicker here.
|
Snyderm
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:21:00 -
[2369] - Quote
My analysis:
The Megathron is unacceptable. It lacks CPU forcing you to fit Adaptive Nano Plating II instead of EANM IIs. This limits its EHP for Fleet work. Most people are going to simply ignore this ship, as others are just better.
The Hyperion is awesome. It finally has that missing low slot, and might just be a good enough hull to use even when not active armor tanking. Removing the old turrets and adding the extra drone bay and bandwidth makes it versatile without being too overpowered. Hopefully it will be worth the cost to people though.
The Dominix is only for lazy level 4 mission runners, unless CCP introduces changes to drone mechanics. Even Good level 4 mission runners are going to ignore this ship now, as it lost its DPS. As a sentry boat fleet ship, it seems a bit gimmicky to me. The biggest problem is that few other ships will be able to complement its tactics. So is this gimmick good enough for people to train up gallante just to fit in? I rather doubt it. For this ship to be used at all, drone mechanics are gonna need to be changed so that it can play with others. |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:10:00 -
[2370] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:I don't see how the mega was nerfed, !
Damg Changed to RoF = lower alpha and in short fights more rounds needed to deal the damg the old one can do at current. more cap need the drones are the iceing overall long fights can deal slightly more damg But will cost more ammo and cap makeing drawn out fights with it a disadvange. long term use is fail. i did do some off had math (the best kind) in a 7x turret volly the Old mega can deal about 10kmore damg (raw figers) and takes an extra 10 seconds to do it the new mega 3.5 more cycles around to do it works out to 40s(old cycle time) to 30s(new) add in the extra 3 cycles and its anotther 10 seconds (for this Base stats were used and RoF skill was removed) (warning on math it is off hand and im sure some one has just started doing it proper to complain at me)
Bigg Gun wrote: Hyperion lost DPS , I think an effective gun worth, but it got heavies and a low slot and an utility high. So it became effectively a mega from before without the tracking and with repping bonus. !
I bleive it sits at 9 efective guns unlike its old 10 effective guns it has lost 2 turret hardpoints and gaind 1 utility and some drones overall its an improvment and I can live with to some dagree i do find it odd how we no longer have an 8 Turret BS thou i still want to know why this is...that and why the 8 Turret T3 BC tenicly can put out more damg >.>...
the Domi is basicly a junkpile in space with 1 real use and a lessing value in PvE (due to drones being ********) and destroyable damg YaY that and the drone bay matches the amarrs one explane how the amarr have better drone tech than the Gal? caz makes no sens to me.
- Seeker |
|
Ninavask
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:43:00 -
[2371] - Quote
Doed wrote:Ninavask wrote:So yeah when the hyp changes go through I'm just going to go ahead and self destruct it somewhere nice and quiet... I'f you're gonna post a beyond-stupid comment. atleast give so information as of why you'd self destruct it. Hype and Domi looks alot better now, not really looked into Mega but does it have any cpu problems ? considering the extra low and barely any extra cpu The entire reason I fly Hyperion is because of the DPS it can do. I don't need to tank harder I need to kill faster. They are dropping the available DPS enough Imight as well use a domi.
As well I posted about it before in detail but it was buried in walls of text about the mega. Dr. Ninavask Revan CEO - Commander The Synenose Accord Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated. |
Tom Guhl
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:14:00 -
[2372] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Tom Guhl wrote:Dr Ted Kaper wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
I don't like this change for the domi but that is true, and it might make the rohk obsolete because of this crazy damage projection. Don't forget to add an extra Sensor Booster to actually let you target out that far. Rokh has 30% more targeting range than Dominix. You forgot the 4 DLA IIs. Don't the targets still need to be within locking range of your ship? |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:00:00 -
[2373] - Quote
I don't know what you're smoking but lets look at the mega: right now with 3 damage mods it has a 4.33 ROF and 3700 volley with AM t1. The new mega will have 3.25 ROF with 2961 volley. So in 10 volleys or 43 seconds the old mega could do 37k damage, the new mega will do that 37k damage in 40 seconds only. In 43 seconds it would've done 40k damage, unless my math is way off. And lets face it, ships which the mega could be fighting should have more than 40k EHP. The real nerf for the mega is the price tag which is 50 mil higher than the current.
BTW I think we will be seeing less and less solo and small gang BS's since 90% of the changes are not really buffs at all, just some radical changes, and some are outright nerfs and yet the price tag is higher , in fact for the ex tier 1s it will be 100% increase, and trust me when I say that, the changes for tier 1s and for tier 2s DO NOT IMPROVE THE SHIPS BY 100%. BS is still a fatter less mobile gank bait, which as of summer of 2013 you won't be able to lose with gusto
Why does this fu-üking forum keep eating my posts and saves drafts ??? It piss-¦s me off to no end. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2111
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:20:00 -
[2374] - Quote
Tom Guhl wrote:ExAstra wrote:Tom Guhl wrote:Dr Ted Kaper wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So the Dominix can now shell out 600DPS out to 139km with 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 2 DDAs, 1 large sentry damage augmenter and 5 Bouncer IIs.
I don't like this change for the domi but that is true, and it might make the rohk obsolete because of this crazy damage projection. Don't forget to add an extra Sensor Booster to actually let you target out that far. Rokh has 30% more targeting range than Dominix. You forgot the 4 DLA IIs. Don't the targets still need to be within locking range of your ship?[edit: ah wait, never mind if you meant we ALSO need to provide DLAs for the drone control range to match the drone attack range.]
I did a lot of testing on Drone Aggression Mechanics for the last alliance tourney:
A sniper drone BS fleet would most likely assign drones to a fleet mate (aka a drone bunny) that has a nice long lock range (like a Recon). The drone bunny will then completely control drone aggro, so your sniping Domi's won't need sensor boosters...
I highly doubt sniping Domi's would replace sniping Rohks because sniping drones have a ton of vulnerabilities, mostly tied to the fact sentry drones don't move, and "recovering them" is non-trivial. Stationary forces are extremely easy to avoid and/or overpower.
Some notes I probably shouldn't make public: 1.) In order for drones to engage a target, the target needs to be within Drone Control Range of your ship. Your lock range is irrelevant. In other words, sniper domi's could simply fleet up with a buddy in a recon (or other 200km lock range ship), and assign drones bypassing the need for a sensor boosters.
2.) To tell a drone to defend or assist an ally, they have to be within drone control range.
3.) Telling them to defend an ally will have them (quasi-randomnly) engage a target that is within drone control range of YOUR ship.
4.) There is a target prioritizing AI for drones. The target priority is dependent on your drone type, on the agressing types of targets, on the range to target, and perhaps something else (order of aggression?). If anyone knows this in detail, it could be useful. To give an example: I think lights drones will typically primary frigates over cruisers, BC's, and BS's, and I believe they'll go after the closest frigate to the drone...
5.) You can only give attack orders to targets within your drone control range, and you obviously need to target someone to tell your drones to attack them. However, if a target travels outside of your drone control range or targetting range after your drones have engaged them, your drones will still engage them. Note: Sometimes the drone AI rechecks drone aggro (I don't know why, but seems to usually be triggered at the same time drones turn on their MWD to "catch up"). When this happens, if the target is beyond your drone control range they will cease their attack. Furthermore, if the drones themselves are far enough away it is possible they will simply disconnect from your ship.
6.) Telling them to assist an ally will have them sit idle, until your ally commits a new act of aggression against a target within your drone control range. It does NOT matter if your ally is already aggressing a target, your drones will sit idle until your ally commits a NEW act of aggression. So, telling your ally you've assisted drones to them means the ally needs to cycle a gun or EWAR mod off, and then turn that gun/EWAR back on for them to engage.
7.) When drones are assisted to you (except in the case of fighters), your drone shortcuts are meaningless. The assisted drones will not obey your drone control commands.
|
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:22:00 -
[2375] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:I don't know what you're smoking but lets look at the mega: right now with 3 damage mods it has a 4.33 ROF and 3700 volley with AM t1. The new mega will have 3.25 ROF with 2961 volley. So in 10 volleys or 43 seconds the old mega could do 37k damage, the new mega will do that 37k damage in 40 seconds only. In 43 seconds it would've done 40k damage, unless my math is way off. And lets face it, ships which the mega could be fighting should have more than 40k EHP. The real nerf for the mega is the price tag which is 50 mil higher than the current.
BTW I think we will be seeing less and less solo and small gang BS's since 90% of the changes are not really buffs at all, just some radical changes, and some are outright nerfs and yet the price tag is higher , in fact for the ex tier 1s it will be 100% increase, and trust me when I say that, the changes for tier 1s and for tier 2s DO NOT IMPROVE THE SHIPS BY 100%. BS is still a fatter less mobile gank bait, which as of summer of 2013 you won't be able to lose with gusto
Why does this fu-üking forum keep eating my posts and saves drafts ??? It piss-¦s me off to no end.
You also forget the loss of drones and are you forgetting the damage bonus from BS V?
This math does not seem correct at all. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:00:00 -
[2376] - Quote
Snyderm wrote:My analysis:
The Megathron is unacceptable. It lacks CPU forcing you to fit Adaptive Nano Plating II instead of EANM IIs. This limits its EHP for Fleet work. Most people are going to simply ignore this ship, as others are just better
C-type adaptive nano plates not uncommon on current mega for same reason
|
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:30:00 -
[2377] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:
You also forget the loss of drones and are you forgetting the damage bonus from BS V?
This math does not seem correct at all.
I said that if you only had 125 m3 you could be using medium and maybe ECM drones, which you can also use now. As for the bonus from BS V , after the patch there will be no bonus to damage from BS skill just bonus to ROF. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2778
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 09:06:00 -
[2378] - Quote
Jill Antaris wrote:Roime wrote:Hype is the clear winner, it'll actually be usable for a number of things, Domi has it's strengths at the expense of losing it's versatility, Mega is nerfed. I don't see the nerf for the mega, since everything the new mega can't do as good as the old one, you can do with the new hype just as good. The extra turret dps and the extra low are a very nice improvement if you look at it as a fleet ship.
Ok, maybe it's more of a role change than a straight nerf. From a balanced small gang battleship to a one-dimensional glass cannon. Competition is tough for the new Mega, class leader in the blaster platform is the Talos with equal dps and better mobility, for fleets it's the Rokh with better range and tank.
It does have midslot-and tank advantage over Talos, and in hybrid tank fit it reaches combat BC mobility, which might cut it some slack.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 10:55:00 -
[2379] - Quote
*sarcasm* Yay for no viable Gallente fleet BS *sarcasm*
Gun DPS of Hyperion- Nerfed EHP of Mega - Nerfed Domi - lol poor domi, the space potato has gone rotten, no more >1000 DPS out of you! |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
513
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:50:00 -
[2380] - Quote
I think I've decided. Give the Dominix these bonuses:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +12.5% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
Reduce the power grid by 1000.
An now you have a super specialised drone boat that isn't completely eclipsed by the Geddon. Sentry drones are massive pains in the ass, but if I can get gardes to do close to 900 dps, I WILL FIND A WAY TO MAKE THEM WORK. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
964
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 15:02:00 -
[2381] - Quote
Snyderm wrote:My analysis:
The Megathron is unacceptable. It lacks CPU forcing you to fit Adaptive Nano Plating II instead of EANM IIs. This limits its EHP for Fleet work. Most people are going to simply ignore this ship, as others are just better.
I havent tried the other ships just yet but i did test the mega... i really liked it... though i did have to put on a cpu rig which reduced my ehp due to a missing 3rd trimark...
other then that its pretty nice ship... though i still would prefer a fall off bonus instead of a tracking one... but i can live with it...
i really like fitting a mjd and mwd combo on the ship... makes it alot of fun to jump into a bunch of ships in a bubble blow some up and jump out... gives it that skirmish feel that attack bs's should have. Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
964
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 15:03:00 -
[2382] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:I think I've decided. Give the Dominix these bonuses: Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +12.5% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage) Reduce the power grid by 1000. An now you have a super specialised drone boat that isn't completely eclipsed by the Geddon. Sentry drones are massive pains in the ass, but if I can get gardes to do close to 900 dps, I WILL FIND A WAY TO MAKE THEM WORK.
man dont you wish all drones had warp drives? that way they would follow you in warp like fighters... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Caljiav Ocanon
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 15:18:00 -
[2383] - Quote
I like the new Mega, it's a better fleet ship now and it will make for a nice pve ship as well (blasphemy, I know).
Just too bad the cost is going up on it. Though I fly through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am aligned to a safespot and warping out. - Me 2013 |
Mata Hotaki
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 16:02:00 -
[2384] - Quote
Here we are on page 119, and there is still no comment from CCP Rise re: new Domi.
What you see below is a quote from Amarr thread regarding the new Geddon:
Pattern Clarc wrote: I'm using
5x Torpedo Launcher II 2x Unstable Power Drain
100mn Prototype MWD x5 Web Cap Injector Warp Distruptor
2x Adaptive Nano Plating II Reactive Armour Hardener Internal Force Field Array 2x 1600mm RT plates Drone Damage Amplifier
3x Trimarks
It is tight on the CPU hence the t1 and adaptive nano plates, but consider this, as current, not a raven nor the phoon can fit a full rack of torpedos + a single neut. They just run out of power grid and cpu. The fact as it stands that you can squeeze all that on the Geddon is fantastic. Not that I believe the fittings are final. The Domi doesn't come close, has no where near the power grid to fit 2x neuts + anything else, not that domi highs do anything viable for DPS anyway.
So, can anyone explain to me again why would I want to use the new Domi?
Yes, on previous pages I've seen the possibly valid argument of "better damage application" based on the turret tracking formula. However, if that is true (and I have yet to see experimental proof and some SiSi numbers), that would mean that the drone mechanics is absolutely b0rked, and needs to be fixed. And when the mechanics is changed/fixed, the new tracking bonus becomes all but useless... |
Mournful Conciousness
Special Situations TOHA Conglomerate
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 16:37:00 -
[2385] - Quote
Please let me know where I can send feedback on the new gallente battleships on SISI.
I have just returned to the game and was glad to see that the brutix had become a reasonable brawler, saddened that the myrmidon is now unusable in pvp.
Here is my feedback on the new T1 battleships:
Hyperion - great change. It now has a utility slot so it's no longer a victim to every cruiser and frigate it encounters. The additional drone bay space finally gives it some offensive capability against frigates as well as drone versatility. Finally it has become the ship it always should have been. 10/10
megathron - a shocking nerf to and old favourite - the removal of the utility high slot is a terrible blow to an otherwise good ship. It is now vulnerable to frigates and cruisers since you can't fit a neutraliser. This should be reversed. Additionally, it lost drone space and bandwidth. Gallente are (were) famed for drone use. This is un-necessary and a loss to the ship's versatility. Please also understand how boring it is to have to fit 3 different sizes of drones just to make one flight. The last patch solved that on the myrm (although it killed the ship because the prophecy now does the job better), but this one plagues the megathron with a 75m drone bay. If this ship makes it to TQ, it will be shunned, which is probably not the intent. 0/10
Dominix - ridiculous. The drone range bonus only affects sentries. The domi is no longer a versatile front line ship as per it's description - it has become a specialised sentry drone launcher. This needs to be undone since this role is already covered by the ishtar. 0/10
I felt sick when I realised I had just paid to resubscribe after a 6 month break, and now I need to retrain to another race in order to get an affordable and functional battleship.
Please reconsider the dominix and megathron changes.
The hyperion change is positive and long overdue.
/MC |
Malango
Astro Defence Industry
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:34:00 -
[2386] - Quote
So you're making my beloved domi a one trick pony and making it a sniper sentry boat... losing the domi's main thing being so versatile.
I love using Ogres/berserkers and 6 rails in my domi, pointless now. You're making it a sniper yet the mega (a blaster boat) has a longer max lock range!?.... pretty ********, Drop the hybrid dps bonus and give a falloff or tracking bonus if you're making it a sniper. or drop a high and add a low, 5 unbonused highs is now plenty as it now has zero bonuses to high slots (unlike the geddon), or add a med and allow it to be shield tanked..... It's just a fat myrmidon now. If you're making it a sniper it'll need more lock range and a bigger drone bay or a lose a high for a low so it can fit a signal amp
All the other races had some awesome buffs. check the raven! but all the gal ships seem to have been gimped to hell. You made the active tanked hyp unable to active tank proper by losing that med. unless it runs a solo rep.
|
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 09:01:00 -
[2387] - Quote
People will only train Gallente Battleship to use the Hyperion now. Mega changes are terrible. Can I get stats that say the utility high was usually not used? Fairly sure a medium/heavy neut is invaluable in many engagements. The new mega is less solo-capable and only marginally better as a fleet ship (and even then I'm not sure since fleets prefer alpha, i.e. damage bonus rather than ROF bonus).
The dominix is... okay. As many have said it's better at one role now (sentry battleship) but worse at everything else. The old domi could do this less effectively but it could also be a neut domi (role now surpassed by the geddon) as well as a shield gank fit that could reach 2k DPS with implants. Not as disastrous of a change as the mega but not really impressed.
My suggestions: 1. Keep the Hyperion changes, these are spot on. 2. Leave the Mega layout as it currently exists in TQ but keep the speed buff. Could possibly do with a tiny CPU buff but it's completely fine without that as well. 3. Domi drone bonuses are a bit awkward. I mean perhaps you guys are setting this ship up for future drone changes but as drone mechanics currently exist an optimal/falloff range bonus to hybrids would suit what you are seemingly trying to do with the Domi better. If you want to keep the current proposed bonus changes, I would DEFINITELY consider shifting more of the unbonussed highs to the mids or lows. |
Perihelion Olenard
158
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:52:00 -
[2388] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: ...
I have just returned to the game and was glad to see that the brutix had become a reasonable brawler, saddened that the myrmidon is now unusable in pvp.
...
How is the myrmidon unusable in PvP? I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:04:00 -
[2389] - Quote
Roime wrote:Jill Antaris wrote:Roime wrote:Hype is the clear winner, it'll actually be usable for a number of things, Domi has it's strengths at the expense of losing it's versatility, Mega is nerfed. I don't see the nerf for the mega, since everything the new mega can't do as good as the old one, you can do with the new hype just as good. The extra turret dps and the extra low are a very nice improvement if you look at it as a fleet ship. Ok, maybe it's more of a role change than a straight nerf. From a balanced small gang battleship to a one-dimensional glass cannon. Competition is tough for the new Mega, class leader in the blaster platform is the Talos with equal dps and better mobility, for fleets it's the Rokh with better range and tank. It does have midslot-and tank advantage over Talos, and in hybrid tank fit it reaches combat BC mobility, which might cut it some slack. Cost, however, is a factor.
I imagine the main reason for changing the mega was, because gallente had two turret small gang battleships(actually 3, since you also could fit the domi this way). I think the hp numbers on the first page still reflect the first iteration, basically HP should be swapped between mega and hype after the role change, giving the new mega quite some staying power with the extra low compared to the Abaddon.
I don't think comparing the Mega to the Talos will result in any good balancing decision, this happens in all 4 bs threads and always comes to the conclusion that tier 3 BCs are just to good at what they do, not only compared against BS but also HACs and other ships. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
521
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:13:00 -
[2390] - Quote
Jill Antaris wrote: I imagine the main reason for changing the mega was, because gallente had two turret small gang battleships(actually 3, since you also could fit the domi this way). I think the hp numbers on the first page still reflect the first iteration, basically HP should be swapped between mega and hype after the role change, giving the new mega quite some staying power with the extra low compared to the Abaddon.
Then you'd need to reverse the Speed and Agility changes to the megathron too. To be honest, they should nerf the speed of the Hyperion down a bit as it's a bit out of line. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
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Amariku
Orbus Syndicate United Systems Alliance Navy
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:20:00 -
[2391] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted.
Could you maybe post when you last edited the OP.
Been watching (and reading) this thread for a week or so. I like some of the changes to the Hyperion, though I am a little perplexed on a couple things. So the questions are directed to the devs.
Firstly, what is with that odd ball launcher hard point?
Secondly, what is the fascination having it keep that armor rep bonus?
I ask this last question because in an earlier post CCP Rise mentions that this is a bonus that is a racial uniqueness and is seen throughout the Gallente ship line. I went and checked the line up and only found 3 besides the Hyperion (Incursus, Brutix, and Myrmidon). While the bonus is fine there should be something to make the ship worth having in a fleet. Then I got this idea, how about a bonus when receiving remote reps. Nothing big just something like 2.5% per skill level in addition to the self armor rep bonus. It'll be easier for fleet support and logistics to keep the ship repaired in the fight while not being crazy broken. At lvl 5 battleship skill the bonus is only 12.5% and there are no modules or rigs to my knowledge that give bonuses like this. Could even do something for shield boosting for the Maelstrom (which has something akin for shield).
If this is not something that is feasible, then another idea I had was to just simply move the armor reping bonus to just a flat role bonus and put in a new scaling bonus. I can see some potential with this ship, but the self reaping bonus is such a situational thing that requires a lot of fidgeting and doesn't work well for some fleet doctrines. Its almost like the ship is just meant for solo/small gang work and nothing. If you are trying to rebalance the all the ships then its got to have some place in larger fleet ops.
Just my couple isk :) |
Perihelion Olenard
158
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:21:00 -
[2392] - Quote
I remember someone from CCP saying that tech 2 ships are supposed to be the specialized ships and tech 1 ships are the general use ships. It seems that focusing the Dominix towards sentry drones is not following that mentality. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:07:00 -
[2393] - Quote
Amariku wrote:CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted. Could you maybe post when you last edited the OP. Been watching (and reading) this thread for a week or so. I like some of the changes to the Hyperion, though I am a little perplexed on a couple things. So the questions are directed to the devs. Firstly, what is with that odd ball launcher hard point? Secondly, what is the fascination having it keep that armor rep bonus? I ask this last question because in an earlier post CCP Rise mentions that this is a bonus that is a racial uniqueness and is seen throughout the Gallente ship line. I went and checked the line up and only found 3 besides the Hyperion (Incursus, Brutix, and Myrmidon). While the bonus is fine there should be something to make the ship worth having in a fleet. Then I got this idea, how about a bonus when receiving remote reps. Nothing big just something like 2.5% per skill level in addition to the self armor rep bonus. It'll be easier for fleet support and logistics to keep the ship repaired in the fight while not being crazy broken. At lvl 5 battleship skill the bonus is only 12.5% and there are no modules or rigs to my knowledge that give bonuses like this. Could even do something for shield boosting for the Maelstrom (which has something akin for shield). If this is not something that is feasible, then another idea I had was to just simply move the armor reping bonus to just a flat role bonus and put in a new scaling bonus. I can see some potential with this ship, but the self reaping bonus is such a situational thing that requires a lot of fidgeting and doesn't work well for some fleet doctrines. Its almost like the ship is just meant for solo/small gang work and nothing. If you are trying to rebalance the all the ships then its got to have some place in larger fleet ops. Just my couple isk :) Yes, please continue trying to make the Hyperion a fleet ship and ruining it at the one job it was made for and was only ever good at. I agree with you about applying local repair bonus to extend to remote repair as well (this makes it a more viable fleet option without removing its solo capabilities). However I don't think the bonus should go role and then give it a second bonus. Right now the ship is PERFECT at its role, giving it any other bonus will push it into the threshold of OP. And then it'll get over-nerfed and stay a limp hound for 3 years.
I certainly don't want that. Until armor tanking and the active boost bonuses are looked at in more detail the Hyperion is going to stay as one of the top of the line small gang ships.
The Megatrhon changes COULD be given a look at, but I'm sorta okay with where it is at now.
As for the Domi, as has been said over and over (and over, and over, and over) it REALLY needs to be looked at. If not the Domi, then the Geddon. It's just not fair for the Geddon to get the choice between turrets and bonus Neuts (PLUS equal power drones), Missiles and bonus Neuts (again, plus equal power drones), where the Domi gets... unbonused turrets. And equal drone power. And equal drone bay. There's no incentive to use it over the Armageddon in its old NeutDrone Boat role (That's ZERO incentive, you'd only be doing it because you WANTED to fly the Domi instead). Which is terrible for CCP's stated "we feel the ship will keep its versatility" statement.
Because, sure, you still CAN make a Neut Domi. But why WOULD you? You have another ship that's 100% better at the role. And sure it can still fit blasters, but now they're unbonused and not doing nearly the amount of damage they could (consider that it only has 6 turrets and blaster power is REALLY underwhelming unbonused at that level). So many people will opt to put, say, Autocannons on it instead, then. The Geddon can also do this. It can also fit missiles instead. What is it that the Dominix offers over the Geddon?
Sentry drones. A niche use that will see whatever its current popularity in PvP decline. The Domi can be saved, and giving it bonused blasters back isn't necessarily the way to do it.
But come on, throw us a freaking bone already! Save the drones! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
328
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:42:00 -
[2394] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:As for the Domi, as has been said over and over (and over, and over, and over) it REALLY needs to be looked at. If not the Domi, then the Geddon. It's just not fair for the Geddon to get the choice between turrets and bonus Neuts (PLUS equal power drones), Missiles and bonus Neuts (again, plus equal power drones), where the Domi gets... unbonused turrets. And equal drone power. And equal drone bay. There's no incentive to use it over the Armageddon in its old NeutDrone Boat role (That's ZERO incentive, you'd only be doing it because you WANTED to fly the Domi instead). Which is terrible for CCP's stated "we feel the ship will keep its versatility" statement.
Because, sure, you still CAN make a Neut Domi. But why WOULD you? You have another ship that's 100% better at the role. And sure it can still fit blasters, but now they're unbonused and not doing nearly the amount of damage they could (consider that it only has 6 turrets and blaster power is REALLY underwhelming unbonused at that level). So many people will opt to put, say, Autocannons on it instead, then. The Geddon can also do this. It can also fit missiles instead. What is it that the Dominix offers over the Geddon?
Sentry drones. A niche use that will see whatever its current popularity in PvP decline. The Domi can be saved, and giving it bonused blasters back isn't necessarily the way to do it.
But come on, throw us a freaking bone already! I'm pretty sure you don't care about mid slots, but the domi have one more mid slot than the geddon. Mid slot are rather useful, and I would say a lot (like in a lot much more) more useful than a high slot, especialy for drone ships.
In fact, with the bonus and the mid slots, the Dominix is better than the Armageddon for everything related to drones. If you don't care about drones, sure the geddon is good, or even better, but otherwise, clearly no.
And finaly, the Dominix have 6 turret slots, instead of the 5 of the Armageddon. I don't know about the fitting, but I suspect that the Dominix have a better gank potential. |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:15:00 -
[2395] - Quote
To use the sentry bonus and "snipe" you lose 2 of the high slots to drone link augmentors. Unless of course you don't care for the second domi bonus and fit 6 turrets and shoot at 60 km only |
I'm Down
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:16:00 -
[2396] - Quote
Jill Antaris wrote:Roime wrote:Jill Antaris wrote:Roime wrote:Hype is the clear winner, it'll actually be usable for a number of things, Domi has it's strengths at the expense of losing it's versatility, Mega is nerfed. I don't see the nerf for the mega, since everything the new mega can't do as good as the old one, you can do with the new hype just as good. The extra turret dps and the extra low are a very nice improvement if you look at it as a fleet ship. Ok, maybe it's more of a role change than a straight nerf. From a balanced small gang battleship to a one-dimensional glass cannon. Competition is tough for the new Mega, class leader in the blaster platform is the Talos with equal dps and better mobility, for fleets it's the Rokh with better range and tank. It does have midslot-and tank advantage over Talos, and in hybrid tank fit it reaches combat BC mobility, which might cut it some slack. Cost, however, is a factor. I imagine the main reason for changing the mega was, because gallente had two turret small gang battleships(actually 3, since you also could fit the domi this way). I think the hp numbers on the first page still reflect the first iteration, basically HP should be swapped between mega and hype after the role change, giving the new mega quite some staying power with the extra low compared to the Abaddon. I don't think comparing the Mega to the Talos will result in any good balancing decision, this happens in all 4 bs threads and always comes to the conclusion that tier 3 BCs are just to good at what they do, not only compared against BS but also HACs and other ships.
Go figure. **** tracking mechanics affecting balancing... who knew core mechanical flaws could ever hurt balance. Surely the devs must ignore them for another 10 years b/c they don't matter.
Face the fact... the dev's are clueless about how tracking works by their own admissions, and they're terrified to touch that aspect of the game. As such, the Teir 3 BC's will continue to dominate over those others listed.
But I'm sure a dev will come in and correct me for still calling them Teir 3 BC's b/c he can't comment on the legit argument. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2789
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 05:37:00 -
[2397] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:To use the sentry bonus and "snipe" you lose 2 of the high slots to drone link augmentors. Unless of course you don't care for the second domi bonus and fit 6 turrets and shoot at 60 km only
What if you lose the two high slots? You still outdamage other battleships at long range.
Also, why would you "snipe"?
Why? Optimal bonus doesn't mean sniping. It means your weapons apply damage better.
Really, Domi is strong at medium-long range. Of course, it can snipe if you really think battleship sniping is a cool thing. It can also brawl, unlike every other sniper. Whether or not these strengths evolve into fleet doctrines hinges on the vague promises of fixing drone mechanics.
Which doesn't look too good, CCP is silent.
It has less versatility, just like Mega, which is bad for battleships, since their current uses were already extremely niche styles of PVP, or then PVE.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:26:00 -
[2398] - Quote
Roime wrote:It has less versatility, just like Mega, which is bad for battleships, since their current uses were already extremely niche styles of PVP, or then PVE. Could you explain what versatility the Dominix lost ? If any, I would say it earned versatility, because the bonus are now more focused on the drones and less on the weapon system, and it earn PG to fit more things. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2798
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:49:00 -
[2399] - Quote
More focused = less versatile. Note that this change does not move a portion of turret dps to drones, it simply removes turret dps.
Geddon assuming the role of neut drone ship is the other thing indirectly reducing versatility.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:55:00 -
[2400] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Roime wrote:It has less versatility, just like Mega, which is bad for battleships, since their current uses were already extremely niche styles of PVP, or then PVE. Could you explain what versatility the Dominix lost ? If any, I would say it earned versatility, because the bonus are now more focused on the drones and less on the weapon system, and it earn PG to fit more things. How did it GAIN versatility when one ship COMPLETELY took over one of its previous roles and it lost a severe amount of applied damage on its most brutal fitting?
Now, it can still perform these roles, but the appeal as to doing such has been hampered, as it is now less effective at each (rather, it's not less effective on the neut front, just outclassed by another ship now).
The optimal/tracking bonus it now gets MOSTLY applies to Sentry Drones. Optimal really doesn't mean squat for Scout and Attack Drones. The tracking bonus does help it some, but only really when using a size-up of drones compared to the target (ie. Hammerhead IIs vs Frigate, Ogre IIs vs Cruiser).
And as has been stated, the sentries need fixed somehow in someway if the Domi is to be a Sentry Sniper. Which could be cool. Save the drones! |
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2800
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:44:00 -
[2401] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: The optimal/tracking bonus it now gets MOSTLY applies to Sentry Drones. Optimal really doesn't mean squat for Scout and Attack Drones. The tracking bonus does help it some, but only really when using a size-up of drones compared to the target (ie. Hammerhead IIs vs Frigate, Ogre IIs vs Cruiser).
One could argue that being able to apply Hammerhead damage instead of Hobgoblin damage means more than squat. In many practical situations drones orbit a moving target, forcing elliptical orbits. Which means that increased optimal translates to applied damage- Omnidirectional Tracking links do help scout drone damage as well. I've never tested 4 links, of which two are unstacked. It might mean more than what people think.
I also believe drones orbit outside their base optimal, both are affected by skills however.
Dominix also has midslot (=hard tackle) advantage over Geddon, these together make Domi more dangerous to small ships. It is a better drone ship, just less versatile than before. Yes, people always wish for dedicated drone ships, I personally don't think such are very viable in real situations.
I do hope that Ishtar gets to keep it's turret bonus.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:57:00 -
[2402] - Quote
Roime wrote:More focused = less versatile. Note that this change does not move a portion of turret dps to drones, it simply removes turret dps.
Geddon assuming the role of neut drone ship is the other thing indirectly reducing versatility. Drones are now more versatile (in their potential targets).
The loss of turret dps mean it is now less gank oriented : less specialized. You now have less incentive to use high slots for hybrid guns only : that is less specialization.
Gun performances are lowered indeed, which mean the Domi is less specialized in its gank role, hence have less potential in this area, but the loss of incentive to go this road mean it's more prone to not be this way, hence more prone to vary its fitting.
That's the bad end of creating versatility, by reducing it's specialization, but it received a specialisation in drones to compensate, which are a more versatile oriented weapon. Should sentries be fixed, and the Dominix will be amazing. Until then, it didn't lost a lot on the gun field (at BEST, 12,5% dps if the guns acounted for half of the previous dps ; as it was mostly not the case, it's often less than 10% dps loss), but its drones became more versatile. That is the good end of creating the versatility.
And the birth of the drone geddon is not a removal of Dominix versatility. Versatility is NOT being the best at everything but having the ability to do everything. The Armageddon is more specialized toward fleet neutralizing platform, because of the bonus, but also because of the one less midslot.
The Dominix will now be the best drone ship, and a jack of all trade for everything else : rather good for everything, best for nothing. The Armageddon, if better for neuting, have far less potential.
One thing to keep in mind is that the Dominix was the only one for the place of T1 drone ship. Any addition to drone something would seem like removing this thing to the Dominix. The Dominix have a little brother, and a lot of people are simply afraid that the little brother will take all of the affection. But IMO, the Armageddon is just new, and guns never have been the primary strength of the Dominix : its only advantage on the guns field was its cheap price which will go away. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:57:00 -
[2403] - Quote
Roime wrote:[quote=ExAstra]
I do hope that Ishtar gets to keep it's turret bonus.
i don't i think the ishtar having 4 drone bonuses would make it a great ship instead of losing a bonus that is hardly used on its 3 turrets.
i hope they build in its dronebay bonus. -5% drone velocity -10% drone damage HP -5km bonus to scout and heavy drone operation -10% drone optimal range and tracking H-M-L 4-5-6 Something like this would be very nice.
'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2801
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:09:00 -
[2404] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: Drones are now more versatile (in their potential targets).
No, they aren't any more versatile than they've always been, they just have 2xOmni as given. It's quantitative improvement, iteration, doesn't allow any new options. Anyway this is mostly semantics, I agree with you that if sentries see even minor tweaks to their deployment/recall mechanics, Dominix has a future. And the drawbacks of sentries in this thread have been greatly exaggerated.
Jonas,
Ishtar needs the turret bonus precisely because of the low number of turrets. It's a superb ship as it is, it only needs a bit more CPU to accommodate DDAs which were introduced before Ishtar was designed. Slot layout is perfect, it has excellent dps for a HAC with an engagement range second to none in it's class.
A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:14:00 -
[2405] - Quote
Roime wrote:A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets. I don't agree with this. I do love drone + hybrid damage bonused ships, but the Myrmidon show that it's not a necessity, and if the Dominix Navy Issue keep its hybrid damage bonus, it'll be fine for me : that would give more options in the end. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:15:00 -
[2406] - Quote
Roime wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote: Drones are now more versatile (in their potential targets).
No, they aren't any more versatile than they've always been, they just have 2xOmni as given. It's quantitative improvement, iteration, doesn't allow any new options. Anyway this is mostly semantics, I agree with you that if sentries see even minor tweaks to their deployment/recall mechanics, Dominix has a future. And the drawbacks of sentries in this thread have been greatly exaggerated. Jonas, Ishtar needs the turret bonus precisely because of the low number of turrets. It's a superb ship as it is, it only needs a bit more CPU to accommodate DDAs which were introduced before Ishtar was designed. Slot layout is perfect, it has excellent dps for a HAC with an engagement range second to none in it's class. A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets.
fitting guns on ishtar kills its fittings hard.... but if you want guns and drones there are other options like vexor or deimos/thorax why do you need guns on an ishtar? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2801
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:57:00 -
[2407] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Roime wrote:A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets. I don't agree with this. I do love drone + hybrid damage bonused ships, but the Myrmidon show that it's not a necessity, and if the Dominix Navy Issue keep its hybrid damage bonus, it'll be fine for me : that would give more options in the end.
Myrmidon is a good example- earlier version was better than current one with one less turret. It's down to heavy drones being so problematic, I find myself using mediums and lights way more often than heavies, and then the total dps is just less.
Yeah, Navy Domi should keep it's current bonuses.
Jonas,
Ishtar is completely different beast from the ships you list (doh, there's only Gila and Ishtar in that class) and I don't want guns on Ishtar, it has them and I want to keep using them :) It's a Domi in a T2 cruiser hull.
Blasters and drones are a perfect pair for numerous reasons- you can't overheat drones, blasters provide damage while your drones travel from another target or while you switch drones, you can shoot two things simultaneously, blasters are your last lifeline when all your drones are gone. And vice versa, drones work when blasters don't (range, jamming, neuting).
Fitting it is a *****, but nothing that modern cybernetics and mild faction pimp couldn't solve. My DED plexer uses neutrons, PVP fits ions (active tank) or electrons (1600mm fit).
Off topic, but doesn't really matter I guess. Unless someone really expects CCP input in this thread anymore.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:11:00 -
[2408] - Quote
Roime wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Roime wrote:A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets. I don't agree with this. I do love drone + hybrid damage bonused ships, but the Myrmidon show that it's not a necessity, and if the Dominix Navy Issue keep its hybrid damage bonus, it'll be fine for me : that would give more options in the end. Myrmidon is a good example- earlier version was better than current one with one less turret. It's down to heavy drones being so problematic, I find myself using mediums and lights way more often than heavies, and then the total dps is just less. Yeah, Navy Domi should keep it's current bonuses. Jonas, Ishtar is completely different beast from the ships you list (doh, there's only Gila and Ishtar in that class) and I don't want guns on Ishtar, it has them and I want to keep using them :) It's a Domi in a T2 cruiser hull. Blasters and drones are a perfect pair for numerous reasons- you can't overheat drones, blasters provide damage while your drones travel from another target or while you switch drones, you can shoot two things simultaneously, blasters are your last lifeline when all your drones are gone. And vice versa, drones work when blasters don't (range, jamming, neuting). Fitting it is a *****, but nothing that modern cybernetics and mild faction pimp couldn't solve. My DED plexer uses neutrons, PVP fits ions (active tank) or electrons (1600mm fit). Off topic, but doesn't really matter I guess. Unless someone really expects CCP input in this thread anymore.
I see where you're coming from and atm its a decent bonus with how it fits and the bonuses and the state of drones.. but i think going forward a more drone focused ship is the better option along with drone improvements which will follow soon going by what CCP have said.. after-all gallente should be the most drone specialized if you want brawler droneboats you can use the prophecy or gila and vexor/ myrmidon .. besides T2 should focus on less things than T1 so having focus on two weapon systems isn't T2 territory. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:19:00 -
[2409] - Quote
Dominix kind of needs a Drone Control bonus rolled in with the optimal bonus if you want it to shine with sentries.
I would still adjust the Armageddon down to 100 bandwidth, and change Heavy Drones to 20 M3/BW.
Then make them fold up to a tenth of their size in the drone bay (or fit 'drone ships' with specialized holds for drones capable of holding hundreds of the things with a delay for loading them from the hold to the drone bay) and cost slightly less than t1 laser crystals if the current agro mechanics of NPC's vs Drones are going to stay as they are. As it is, I lose several per mission now no matter how vigilant I am, and while it does not make it impossible to use a Drone Ship for missions, it does cut into profits and makes them as serious PITA.
Dominix has always been a great ship. It was great with the gun bonus, and will no doubt be great with the drone optimal bonus in a different way... but drones themselves have needed a lot of work for a long time, and it's bringing down a good chunk of the Gallente ship line to leave them as they are. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
71
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:13:00 -
[2410] - Quote
Warning: This post is cut into two pieces
My first response to you guys regarding the Dominix being more lethal to frigates is this: Um, friggin' neut range bonus? (don't interpret this as a discredit to the Domi's extra mid, I am actually fond of that, but I don't think that sole-redeeming-feature is enough, personally, and I REALLY don't see the extra mid making it more lethal to a frigate then being able to cap out an inty at disruptor range [28km disruptor range, where the Geddon can get nearly 40km neuting])
However, since this topic is obviously of interest to me I have decided to take to SiSi in the pursuit of truth and justice. Most of my relevant drone skills are all Level V, with the exception of the Racial Specialization skills, which are all at level 4. Gallente Battleship is at V, Amarr Battleship is, however, only at level 3. To compensate for this, I have allotted the Armageddon 1 Drone Damage Amplifier I, the on-paper base comparison is below (these fits are completely bare of all guns, missiles, neuts, damage, and tracking amplifiers for both ships, minus the Geddon's DDA to bring its DPS in-line. Both ships are outfitted with scram and tackle ONLY for testing):
Dominix: 5x Hobgoblin IIs: 146 dps @ 1.875km+2km w/3.27 tracking 5x Hammerhead IIs: 233 dps @ 1.875km+3km w/1.383 tracking 5x Ogre IIs: 467 dps @ 1.875km+4km w/0.54 tracking 5x Garde IIs: 450 dps @ 45km+12km w/0.054 tracking
Armageddon: 5x Hobgoblins: 147 dps @ 1.25km+2km w/2.18 tracking 5x Hammerheads: 235 dps @ 1.25km+3km w/.922 tracking 5x Ogres: 469 dps @ 1.25km+4km w/.540 tracking 5x Garde: 452 dps @ 30km+12km w/.054 tracking
As you can see, I found the damage difference (slightly biased in Geddon's favor) to be completely negligible for the testing purposes, and at this point will consider the ships (paper dps-wise) completely equal. Obviously the range is in the Domi's favor (I sure hope that 600 meters can make a difference, as Roime suggested) as is the tracking speed of the drones (this should make a clear difference). Now, on to the field testing. Let's find out if the Dominix can pull ahead of the Geddon with its new bonus:
The test is simple. I have an Incursus tanked specifically against Gallente Thermic Drones (this will keep the numbers lower than you'd really be seeing but it works for our purposes). Both drone ships will use Tech II Gallente Scout Drones. When the drone's orbits have stabilized, I will begin reading the numbers from the notification log, add them, and take an average of the amount of shots fired. Missed shots will be included in the averages, so missed shots may significantly lower a score. Wrecking shots will be included in the averages, and may significantly increase the scores. Because there is an equal chance for each drone to miss, and an equal chance for each drone to get a wrecking shot (amongst themselves, not via ship class) I have left the numbers in rather than remove them.
First, the Incursus will sit still, and the drones will orbit freely and ravage the ship's armor (I purposely let them go through the shield for consistency in the readings). Several readings will be done, the average taken, and then the Incursus will orbit the drone boat at 2,500m at full speed, simulating being scrammed (NOT WEBBED). Following this, the Incusus will orbit at 2,500m while being scrammed and webbed. Again, drones are allowed to eat through shield HP and stabilize their orbits before any numbers are taken. To prevent confusion, the damage numbers are equal to the AMOUNT of damage done DIRECTLY to the ship. So if one did damage ranked 10 and the other 6 on average, then the one did about 4 more damage on average per "shot" from the drones.
Results as follows:
- Incursus: Stationary
- Hobgoblin IIs / Orbit 750m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 19.26, with 96.66% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 20.96, with 100% accuracy
The Dominix managed a 1.70 increase in damage and a 3.37% accuracy increase. (This is low)
- Incursus: Stationary
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1050m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 10.13, with 40% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 15.56, with 60% accuracy
Here, the Dominix managed to do quite a bit better with a 5.43 damage increase and a 20% accuracy increase (the 5.5ish damage is a good number and 20% extra accuracy is good)
- Incursus: Orbit - Scrammed
- Hobgoblin IIs / Orbit 500m to 1,300m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 22.76 with 100% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 21.46 with 100% accuracy
The Dominix's applied DPS came in second place here, 1.3 behind the Armageddon, while tieing in accuracy (the 1.3 is fairly low and mostly negligible, they can be considered completely equal here)
- Incursus: Orbit - Scrammed
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,100m to 2,100m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 29.90 with 93.33% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 32.63 with 93.33% accuracy
Here, the Dominix managed a lead in damage with 2.73 over the Armageddon, at the same accuracy. This isn't phenomenal, but it can probably partially be attributed to the slightly increased optimal range of the drones allowing for higher damage hits at the 2,000m range.
- Incursus: Orbit - Webbed
- Hobgoblin IIs / Orbit 650m to 850m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 20.93 with 100% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 20.66 with 96.66% accuracy
Unfortunately, the Dominix didn't get 100% accuracy here which threw its damage BARELY under the Geddon. It may have managed to get into the 21 or 22 with a 100% accuracy. Save the drones! |
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
71
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:13:00 -
[2411] - Quote
- Incursus: Orbit - Webbed
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,000m to 1,300m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 19.96 with 63.33% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 25.43 with 83.33% accuracy
Here, again, the Dominix's bonus DOES manage to pull it ahead with a 5.47 increase in damage and a 20% accuracy increase. This value shows that the bonus DOES come moderately handy when using up-sized drones on smaller targets (Medium drones on Frigates, Heavies on Cruisers).
However, I still don't think it's enough to differentiate the two. The bonus is STILL primarily for Sentries, as far as I can tell. The bonus it provides is just not good enough, especially when you consider that the medium slot you are suggesting gives it frigate killing power in regards to extra tackle (assuming web) is less than useful when using up-size drones, as the faster moving target is actually easier for them to hit. This particular bit of information may be of some surprise to those of you not familiar with Azual Skoll's Test on this same issue.
But perhaps you guys still think differently? Perhaps you still think that the new Dominix is more versatile, and a better drone platform than the Armageddon? I still can only see it as a marginal improvement (in general, the sentries are lavished by the new bonus, but they need fixing and if it is to be a drone boat it should be better with ALL drones not just one set).
If you think I did something wrong /etc. feel free to do your own testing and post your results. SiSi is here for us to test the changes now, after all. Save the drones! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2803
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:50:00 -
[2412] - Quote
Nice testing, but did you not notice that Domi does about 30% more damage than Geddon when upsizing drones?
It's way more than marginal improvement, considering the damage bonus is equal.
Domi should counter an inty with MJD, and blap it from 100k :)
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:56:00 -
[2413] - Quote
Roime wrote:Nice testing, but did you not notice that Domi does about 30% more damage than Geddon when upsizing drones?
It's way more than marginal improvement, considering the damage bonus is equal.
This only matters if you're flying solo, because you can choose to not web that frigate and allow the mediums to do the damage. Because if you're not solo, your target is heavily webbed. And if it's heavily webbed, then light drones are going to do a lot more DPS. And suddenly the Geddon and Domi DPS becomes equal again. Also if you don't web the frigate it's probably just gonna try to get out of dodge when it realizes what's going on.
I am not satisfied with the new bonus yet. However, I'm also not done testing it yet. Save the drones! |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3632
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:53:00 -
[2414] - Quote
I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose.
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Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:57:00 -
[2415] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Roime wrote:More focused = less versatile. Note that this change does not move a portion of turret dps to drones, it simply removes turret dps.
Geddon assuming the role of neut drone ship is the other thing indirectly reducing versatility. Drones are now more versatile (in their potential targets). The loss of turret dps mean it is now less gank oriented : less specialized. You now have less incentive to use high slots for hybrid guns only : that is less specialization. Gun performances are lowered indeed, which mean the Domi is less specialized in its gank role, hence have less potential in this area, but the loss of incentive to go this road mean it's more prone to not be this way, hence more prone to vary its fitting. That's the bad end of creating versatility, by reducing it's specialization, but it received a specialisation in drones to compensate, which are a more versatile oriented weapon. Should sentries be fixed, and the Dominix will be amazing. Until then, it didn't lost a lot on the gun field (at BEST, 12,5% dps if the guns acounted for half of the previous dps ; as it was mostly not the case, it's often less than 10% dps loss), but its drones became more versatile. That is the good end of creating the versatility. And the birth of the drone geddon is not a removal of Dominix versatility. Versatility is NOT being the best at everything but having the ability to do everything. The Armageddon is more specialized toward fleet neutralizing platform, because of the bonus, but also because of the one less midslot. The Dominix will now be the best drone ship, and a jack of all trade for everything else : rather good for everything, best for nothing. The Armageddon, if better for neuting, have far less potential. One thing to keep in mind is that the Dominix was the only one for the place of T1 drone ship. Any addition to drone something would seem like removing this thing to the Dominix. The Dominix have a little brother, and a lot of people are simply afraid that the little brother will take all of the affection. But IMO, the Armageddon is just new, and guns never have been the primary strength of the Dominix : its only advantage on the guns field was its cheap price which will go away.
You obviously don't play Gallente or are trolling if you think the current proposed domi is better than the Geddon. The Domi with these changes is not a specialized drone boat its now a specialized Sentry Boat. If they actually changed it so the current bonus gave a speed bonus or a bonus to drone "effects" then it would be a solid trade for damage loss. Currently the Hybrid loss was replaced with a garbage bonus that only works on Sentries and can easily be replicated by a omni-directional tracking module. |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
111
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:41:00 -
[2416] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose.
It's good for fleet pvp. Very good infact. Once sentry drones get to orbit their host so you don't have to sit still the Dominix will be the number 1 contender to the Apoc for applied damage. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3637
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:13:00 -
[2417] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose. It's good for fleet pvp. Very good infact. Once sentry drones get to orbit their host so you don't have to sit still the Dominix will be the number 1 contender to the Apoc for applied damage. Oh this argument again.
Counter proposal:
Give it a bonus that is useful NOW and then once sentries orbit the host, you can change it to the optimal and tracking bonus.
|
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:22:00 -
[2418] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:mama guru wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose. It's good for fleet pvp. Very good infact. Once sentry drones get to orbit their host so you don't have to sit still the Dominix will be the number 1 contender to the Apoc for applied damage. Oh this argument again. Counter proposal: Give it a bonus that is useful NOW and then once sentries orbit the host, you can change it to the optimal and tracking bonus.
as stated by Marlona if this IS going to make the domi good (i dont think it is giveing it a niche of niche jobs) When the drones are fixed then DONT fix it till the drone are the Promis of it will be better is often the worst type of disapointment you can get
the world isnt going to end if the Domi isnt updated till the Drone fix is ready and in place at lest if anything thats a Better option launching a ship that dosnt work till later means its never going to be seen as Usefull or good and we have alredy had people testing this bounce (extensivly to) that has show its lossing 25% of its famge for sod all usefullnesss Why? if you cant make the bounce usefull dont strip it of its bounce and give it a promis of Soon TM.
also i have to actualy ask would anyone sane relly fly a Drone Drone ship as they keep saying it will be... i mean Drone Drone to me sounds like a very much when you run out of drones you die situe and considering this is pusing people to sentry fits it makes that your screwd point a lot closer due to the limited number of Sentrsy you can even carry... meh just my opinion i found the Hybrid/Drone the more sane option when i started playing... caz if the drones faild you had guns to fall back on..
- Seeker |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
459
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:37:00 -
[2419] - Quote
Sorry, but I just couldn't resist... Sentries orbiting their host? Why don't attach them to the hull and call resulting contraptions "guns"? Nwm me, just trolling. I do see some difference.
On a more serious note, if Domi is to be an all-out drone boat, it needs additional bonus to combat and utility drones as well as to sentries. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2805
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:44:00 -
[2420] - Quote
No, they shouldn't orbit the host. Simplest fix is to increase scoop range from 2500m to 5000m or 7500m. This would allow aligning and (more practical than current) orbiting the sentries to reduce incoming damage, while still keeping the original spirit of sentries. You would need to scoop/redeploy periodically if you wish to stay aligned, but this extended range would at least allow fleet aligns.
Another solution is to give them a "return drive", which would allow them to MWD back to host from a longer range, obviously not doing any damage during the micro warp.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:01:00 -
[2421] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: I am not satisfied with the new bonus yet. However, I'm also not done testing it yet. Curious that you didn't do the test with Ogres vs a Cruiser/BC cuz that would seem like a far more likely scenario than a Domi trying to pop an Incursus. Especially if you are in a gang.
|
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2805
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:31:00 -
[2422] - Quote
Why does the Mega have so little CPU?
It's really hard to fit.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:36:00 -
[2423] - Quote
Roime wrote:Why does the Mega have so little CPU?
It's really hard to fit.
That extra low fit a CPU on it -_-
/end troll |
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
78
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:57:00 -
[2424] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:Roime wrote:Why does the Mega have so little CPU?
It's really hard to fit.
That extra low fit a CPU on it -_- /end troll
Well there's some general truth to it. That extra low is used up just to make up for the nerfs it got. Unless you put a magstab there it actually loses dmg. |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:20:00 -
[2425] - Quote
RoF can never replace damg... epseicly when it costs More on ammo and cap to do so overall the mega is less than it was and CCP have said the Navy is going the same way.
i keep saying it but we relly do need a CCP staffer to reply in here if not even reading the DO NOT LIKE to the Mega and Domi.
- Seeker |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
250
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:23:00 -
[2426] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:RoF can never replace damg... epseicly when it costs More on ammo and cap to do so overall the mega is less than it was and CCP have said the Navy is going the same way.
i keep saying it but we relly do need a CCP staffer to reply in here if not even reading the DO NOT LIKE to the Mega and Domi.
- Seeker
For god sake .. that is pure whinage.. PLEASE>. I woudl love if CCP changed tempest DAMAGE bonus into another ROF bonus. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
79
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:24:00 -
[2427] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:ExAstra wrote: I am not satisfied with the new bonus yet. However, I'm also not done testing it yet. Curious that you didn't do the test with Ogres vs a Cruiser/BC cuz that would seem like a far more likely scenario than a Domi trying to pop an Incursus. Especially if you are in a gang. That test is on the way, worry not. It actually took me a bit longer than I expected to get all the data I collected just from the frigate test into a legible and not-wall-of-text format suitable for a post on the forums.
I also intend to test whether or not the new sentries are capable of "blapping" a frigate if the Dominix manages to MJD out to 100km and deploy sentries. Considering any GOOD interceptor pilot should know how to approach long range battleships with relative safety from any distance, it will be important to check whether or not the tracking bonused sentries can be the bane of manual piloting interceptors.
Roime wrote:No, they shouldn't orbit the host. Simplest fix is to increase scoop range from 2500m to 5000m or 7500m. This would allow aligning and (more practical than current) orbiting the sentries to reduce incoming damage, while still keeping the original spirit of sentries. You would need to scoop/redeploy periodically if you wish to stay aligned, but this extended range would at least allow fleet aligns.
Another solution is to give them a "return drive", which would allow them to MWD back to host from a longer range, obviously not doing any damage during the micro warp. Roime and I agree here. I don't want to see sentry drones orbiting the host ship (for starters, that just adds more chances for the drones to miss their targets, which nobody wants. An increased scoop range would be nice, but I'd prefer sentries "deploy" to fire and have a MWD to return to the host ship. Make 'em move like Ogres and there shouldn't be any balance issues. At least, I'd think.
I am still of the opinion that the optimal bonus doesn't mean squat to the Scout/Attack Drones. It's like giving a 50% optimal range bonus to projectiles on the Stabber. I bet the Matari pilots would be overjoyed with that! Haha. Save the drones! |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:24:00 -
[2428] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:RoF can never replace damg... epseicly when it costs More on ammo and cap to do so overall the mega is less than it was and CCP have said the Navy is going the same way.
i keep saying it but we relly do need a CCP staffer to reply in here if not even reading the DO NOT LIKE to the Mega and Domi.
- Seeker I LOVE the new Domi change. As a drone user it's exactly what that ship needed. And CCP doesn't NEED to respond to people that are upset that some ship they fly is getting changed from the status quo they've been used to for years. It is THEIR game, we just play it. Either adapt or not.
And no matter what you tell yourself RoF is superior DPS to the same % + damage buff. It doesn't matter if it costs more ammo or cap, it DOES increase the DPS output.
That is all. |
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:34:00 -
[2429] - Quote
Sod it.I give up.
fit em however but the new mega and domi are going to suck badly in their own problematic ways. i guess im gona take the easy way out and not fly them.
Have fun Fly safe
- Seeker
|
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
448
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:48:00 -
[2430] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:Sod it.I give up.
fit em however but the new mega and domi are going to suck badly in their own problematic ways. i guess im gona take the easy way out and not fly them.
Have fun Fly safe
- Seeker
The problem with this quote is that you're flat out wrong. The new mega will be dishing MORE dps than the pre nerf mega while taking a very small ehp hit, and the loss of the nuet. The big kicker is that a much larger % of the ships overall damage will be coming from turrets which deal instant damage AND can be overheated further increasing the gap between pre change and post change megathron. The only suggestion I would make to the ship is to add another 25m3 drone bandwidth and to also swap the "roles" of the domi and mega. Mega should be the combat and domi the attack, domi has a far better slot layout to take advantage of that roll anyway.
As for the domi sucking... I guess... Max gank domi did receive a nerf which imo was not at all warranted however for the vasty majority of domi fits this is a rather significant buff. Significantly increased dps from "over sized" drones as well as 80km+ gardes (beast mode). All in all I think the whines are much more severe than any "nerf" this ship has seen.
|
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DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:23:00 -
[2431] - Quote
Quote:As for the domi sucking... I guess... Max gank domi did receive a nerf which imo was not at all warranted however for the vasty majority of domi fits this is a rather significant buff. Significantly increased dps from "over sized" drones as well as 80km+ gardes (beast mode). Oh hell yes, my current fit has Gardes Opt to 57km and they insta anything Cruiser and smaller + 2-shot BCs (PvE obv). Having them hit Optimal of 70+ while tracking even better is going to be insane. Besides as a Mission fit Domi I rarely used the guns.
For PvP I prefer either TurtleDomi or DomiNeut which neither will be adversely effected. The Domi was the highest DPS T1 (non-Navy/Pirate) BS in the game so bringing it's total capable DPS down to roughly 1500 was warranted, since most of the other BS's do around that in a max gank fit. That is all. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
250
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:04:00 -
[2432] - Quote
Jeen Seeker wrote:Sod it.I give up.
fit em however but the new mega and domi are going to suck badly in their own problematic ways. i guess im gona take the easy way out and not fly them.
Have fun Fly safe
- Seeker
Good for you because I basically sold my other battleships to buy more gallente battleships. you Know why? Because they are the BEST BY FAR! |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
132
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:06:00 -
[2433] - Quote
Quote:Good for you because I basically sold my other battleships to buy more gallente battleships. you Know why? Because they are the BEST BY FAR! Space PO-TA-TO FTW! The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2811
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:17:00 -
[2434] - Quote
Ok, after some EFTing I conclude:
Hype is the obvious king of small gang from these three. It could also be a solo battleship, however viable that concept even is. It's also the attack battleship from this batch, having comparable DPS, tracking and speed to the Mega (try it out yourself), but comes with a neut, cap life and better tank and sensors. Good speed, slot layout, drone bay and ease of tanking make it neat for PVE as well. Armor tanking was abandoned at 1.5, but at least on paper Hype seems to be perfectly capable of pulling off some epic tanking. I built 10 of these and look very much forward to flying it, it's one of the best looking hulls in game.
Domi is primarily for PVE, where it reigns supreme over all battleships except a select few marauders and pirate ships, until 2045 when drones are finally fixed. Then it will be boss in fleets as well, it has outrageous damage projection, there isn't anything comparable in game. It's also viable for small gangs (as it's always been), and even neuting if you can't fly a Bhaal or Geddon that is. Navy Domi stays ganky, so all is good in Domi world. Well, as good as it can be until drones are fixed.
One more time, drones need to be fixed. Start with sentry scooping
Mega is the best one for fleets. It does more damage with turrets than Hype. Whether or not null doctrines adopt it remains to be seen, but it has some strengths. Lack of neut and poor capacitor limit it's role in small gangs, unless you need a glass cannon. It does have the potential to lay down some serious hurt if the stars are aligned right, best large turret tracking combined with high RoF can spell doom to targets inside hard tackle range. Tough competition from the Hype, has to be tested on the field. Recent hull redesign managed to improve a classic shape to make it even sexier, would be lovely to fly it.
Battleship tiericide in general should have lifted the T1 ships to the level of the Navy battleships to improve their position among the other ship classes, but that didn't happen. These changes seem to be final as well, so signing off from this thread.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:05:00 -
[2435] - Quote
Despite his earlier trolling, I agree fully with Roime's assessment. Hype is amazing for small gang, Mega is now better suited for large fleets.
Ah DeLinsey, no one ever had worries about the Domi's PvE capability, even before the changes. Most people aren't really excited that missions will be done with 50% more AFK now.
The Domi was introduced by Rise as the fleet ship. I can only assume that Rise is keeping quiet on the matter as he may have inside knowledge of drone updates that he mentioned in the original post. Here's hoping for SOON rather than soon(tm).
However on the flip side, the new Domi's new natural predators (bombers staggering launches to either destroy sentries or force them to stay in bay... I'd assume low-mobility BS fleet is also a dread's wetdream) don't really exist in high-sec, which presents some interesting options there... Perhaps they may also be useful for defence/offence on stationary objectives like structure battles where lack of mobility isn't so ... err crippling?
|
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:27:00 -
[2436] - Quote
Marxzo Andoun wrote:Despite his earlier trolling, I agree fully with Roime's assessment. Hype is amazing for small gang, Mega is now better suited for large fleets.
Ah DeLinsey, no one ever had worries about the Domi's PvE capability, even before the changes. Most people aren't really excited that missions will be done with 50% more AFK now.
The Domi was introduced by Rise as the fleet ship. I can only assume that Rise is keeping quiet on the matter as he may have inside knowledge of drone updates that he mentioned in the original post. Here's hoping for SOON rather than soon(tm).
However on the flip side, the new Domi's new natural predators (bombers staggering launches to either destroy sentries or force them to stay in bay... I'd assume low-mobility BS fleet is also a dread's wetdream) don't really exist in high-sec, which presents some interesting options there... Perhaps they may also be useful for defence/offence on stationary objectives like structure battles where lack of mobility isn't so ... err crippling?
The biggest benefit to sentry drones, even before these changes, is the ability to assign them to an anchor and syncronise your drone damage across the whole fleet.
5x Garde II 2x Omnidirectionals II
This puts 550 dps out to 70km with almost twice the tracking of a mega pulse laser using scorch, and thats on the new navy apoc with the 37% tracking bonus. Not only that but the drones have 125m sig resolution on their weapon, which is equivalent to a cruiser sized weapon, compared to the 400 on a battleship sized weapon.
The other gallente ships are the big problems. The megathron is only worse now, 8 lows is nice but the lack of a utility high and a big dronebay causes problems. I'd rather see the bonus swapped to 10% hybrid falloff to give it some damage projection. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:36:00 -
[2437] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Marxzo Andoun wrote:Despite his earlier trolling, I agree fully with Roime's assessment. Hype is amazing for small gang, Mega is now better suited for large fleets.
Ah DeLinsey, no one ever had worries about the Domi's PvE capability, even before the changes. Most people aren't really excited that missions will be done with 50% more AFK now.
The Domi was introduced by Rise as the fleet ship. I can only assume that Rise is keeping quiet on the matter as he may have inside knowledge of drone updates that he mentioned in the original post. Here's hoping for SOON rather than soon(tm).
However on the flip side, the new Domi's new natural predators (bombers staggering launches to either destroy sentries or force them to stay in bay... I'd assume low-mobility BS fleet is also a dread's wetdream) don't really exist in high-sec, which presents some interesting options there... Perhaps they may also be useful for defence/offence on stationary objectives like structure battles where lack of mobility isn't so ... err crippling?
The biggest benefit to sentry drones, even before these changes, is the ability to assign them to an anchor and syncronise your drone damage across the whole fleet. 5x Garde II 2x Omnidirectionals II This puts 550 dps out to 70km with almost twice the tracking of a mega pulse laser using scorch, and thats on the new navy apoc with the 37% tracking bonus. Not only that but the drones have 125m sig resolution on their weapon, which is equivalent to a cruiser sized weapon, compared to the 400 on a battleship sized weapon. The other gallente ships are the big problems. The megathron is only worse now, 8 lows is nice but the lack of a utility high and a big dronebay causes problems. I'd rather see the bonus swapped to 10% hybrid falloff to give it some damage projection.
You're mistaken the sig radius of sentries is 125m..... weapon res is 400.
'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:51:00 -
[2438] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
You're mistaken the sig radius of sentries is 125m..... weapon res is 400.
Right my mistake, i was thinking of Ogre II's. They have a sig res of 125, sig radius of 100. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 18:13:00 -
[2439] - Quote
mama guru wrote:
The biggest benefit to sentry drones, even before these changes, is the ability to assign them to an anchor and syncronise your drone damage across the whole fleet.
5x Garde II 2x Omnidirectionals II
This puts 550 dps out to 70km with almost twice the tracking of a mega pulse laser using scorch, and thats on the new navy apoc with the 37% tracking bonus. Not only that but the drones have 125m sig resolution on their weapon, which is equivalent to a cruiser sized weapon, compared to the 400 on a battleship sized weapon.
The other gallente ships are the big problems. The megathron is only worse now, 8 lows is nice but the lack of a utility high and a big dronebay causes problems. I'd rather see the bonus swapped to 10% hybrid falloff to give it some damage projection.
Yeah the idea of a "mini slowcat" Domi fleet was discussed in detail earlier in the thread.
I was thinking that the better tank from 8 lows and higher dps from RoF makes the mega more desirable in fleets, though I agree a fall-off bonus would work really well. Being able to "do it all" with a utility high and full drone bandwidth seems more important for small-gang where less support ships means your ship needs to be more self-contained. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3642
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:15:00 -
[2440] - Quote
Why use the Dominix when the Armageddon exists?
|
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Morsimo Khan
Ignotis Imperium Usurper.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:53:00 -
[2441] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Why use the Dominix when the Armageddon exists?
Exactly, that's one of the reasons for my suggestions in my thread on the topis of rebalancing battleships: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235715&find=unread
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Perihelion Olenard
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:37:00 -
[2442] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Why use the Dominix when the Armageddon exists? The Dominix has an extra mid slot. The Armageddon will have an extra high slot. I don't like the current implementation of sentry drones, so the range bonus of the drones won't help me much. However, there may be an occasion where the fifth mid slot is needed. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1021
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 22:56:00 -
[2443] - Quote
Help the Dominix by Orbit Range = Optimum Range. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Temai
The Scope
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 23:58:00 -
[2444] - Quote
I have to ask. Why is a RoF considerd Better than a Improved Damg Buff?
far as i can relly tell the Megas RoF is takeing over the Damg Bounce but its not wining by much and is Incressing Ammo cost and Engj usege of the guns why not just buff the Damg output to 7.5%? would get better damg output and no downsides to the Cost of ammo and cap used to deal the prolonged damg
i just dont understand how people seem to be attached to the RoF when its relly just replaceing the Damg and only slightly improving it at massive drawbacks on Cap cost an ammo price incresse
tbh the Mega is more a PvP boat and currently mostly used in PVP Small gangs i dont see how the RoF is gona help it out more in fleets than if it got better Damg. sure in long term engaments the RoF would slowly pull ahead but its at a massive cost i just dont see this as makeing sens.
ah well wont effect me much dont Fly the Mega probly wont now.
The Domi confuses me a bit they dont like split wepon stuff yet the buff they replaced it with truly only works for Sentrys and has neglible effects on Ligh Med and Heavy drone's so tencily this is replacing a split wepon with a split wepon. the 2nd buff only relly helps out sentrys so your better of useing them than Lights Med n Hevys... i dunno it just stinks of poor planing and logic to me.
side note. Can we for the love of GOD get an Exploration Cruiser, BC or BS hull... i mean is that to much to ask ( i know the BC gift is one but if you want use to explore in space give us a damn hull for the job rather than forceing use to shoohorn things in to the job and yes i am useing a T3 i just though i would complain)
also if your gona do This Change can you Fix the Skins so the Hardpoints and Removed and Adapted the Hyper looks ******** with 6 guns and 1 launcher on the front. also Why U No Give us 8 Guns CCP
- Temai
Edited stuff
just thought of this Basicly the new Domi is basicly saying you could fit Lights Med or Hevy drones but relly you want to use Sentry drone caz the rest arnt as Good...... isnt that what tieraside was seting out to stop the you could fly a Destroyer but what you relly want to train for is a BC in this case you could train for a Hevy Drone but you relly should just go for a Sentry. i found it ammusing though - Lost in Space looking for a Home dreaming of building outpost's acrross EVE - |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 01:47:00 -
[2445] - Quote
With 122 pages I simply don't have the interest or energy to read through this topic to see if any of what I'm about to say has been mentioned. That said...
One thing that seems to be missing from the thought processes about people complaining about the usefulness of the proposed tracking/range bonus is how it affects smaller drones. Warrior IIs will have an optimal of 1875m along with a tracking speed of 4.86 at GalBS5. If they're dangerous for interceptors now then come expansion they'll run the risk of being positively lethal to them.
As for the second thing it deals with making the dominix unique and separating it from the proposed armageddon. It's a simple solution, and like all simple solutions it's probably a "bad" solution. It is still, in my opinion, a solution that can cover the current situation. Simply make 3 changes to the current dominix proposal. #1 Remove one or two turret hardpoints. #2 Increase the dominix's bandwidth by 25mb. #3 Allow the dominix to fit one Drone Control Unit.
If you remove two turret hardpoints while also allowing the dominix to field a sixth heavy/sentry drone it will do approximately as much DPS as it does now while further emphasizing the drone orientation of the ship and the "more/heavier deployed drones" philosophy that CCP is trying to apply to Gallente drone boats as compared to Amarr drone boats and their "more reloads" philosophy.
As I said though, it's a simple solution and it involves mixing things up in a way that CCP often frowns upon so it's likely not a good solution, but it does manage to cover the bases and make the dominix a bit more unique |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3653
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 03:30:00 -
[2446] - Quote
Shereza wrote:With 122 pages I simply don't have the interest or energy to read through this topic to see if any of what I'm about to say has been mentioned. That said...
One thing that seems to be missing from the thought processes about people complaining about the usefulness of the proposed tracking/range bonus is how it affects smaller drones. Warrior IIs will have an optimal of 1875m along with a tracking speed of 4.86 at GalBS5. If they're dangerous for interceptors now then come expansion they'll run the risk of being positively lethal to them.
As for the second thing it deals with making the dominix unique and separating it from the proposed armageddon. It's a simple solution, and like all simple solutions it's probably a "bad" solution. It is still, in my opinion, a solution that can cover the current situation. Simply make 3 changes to the current dominix proposal. #1 Remove one or two turret hardpoints. #2 Increase the dominix's bandwidth by 25mb. #3 Allow the dominix to fit one Drone Control Unit.
If you remove two turret hardpoints while also allowing the dominix to field a sixth heavy/sentry drone it will do approximately as much DPS as it does now while further emphasizing the drone orientation of the ship and the "more/heavier deployed drones" philosophy that CCP is trying to apply to Gallente drone boats as compared to Amarr drone boats and their "more reloads" philosophy.
As I said though, it's a simple solution and it involves mixing things up in a way that CCP often frowns upon so it's likely not a good solution, but it does manage to cover the bases and make the dominix a bit more unique The Dominix being turned into a pocket carrier would be nice. Instead of the optimal and tracking bonus, change it to a +1 launched drones. Then remove a few high slots to increase it's drone bay to 700 m3.
Presto!
You now have a unique role for it as a battleship that is very different from the other battleships.
|
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:18:00 -
[2447] - Quote
Honestly, I'd think getting a sub-cap ship that can get six drones in space with the aid of a DCU would be hard enough that getting a sub-cap ship fielding 10 drones without them would be downright impossible.
Also, did you intentionally not suggest modifying the dominix's bandwidth? I ask because if you don't give it increased bandwidth you're effectively removing heavy drones from any dominix lineup flown by pilots with GalBS5. Given that 10 hammerheads do as much DPS as 5 ogres, travel faster, are less painful to lose on a per drone basis, and, at least in PvP, give your opponents more targets to focus on if they attack drones before ships there would be little, if any, reason to use ogres at that point. That's not even getting into the whole thing where the drone bay can hold 37 hammerheads but only 15 ogres. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:31:00 -
[2448] - Quote
It might be fun to see +25 bandwidth and +1 drone controlled per Gallente BS level, since we're talking about exotic concepts like that.
I don't like sentries or drones in general, but 10 sentries sounds amazingly entertaining. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:49:00 -
[2449] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:It might be fun to see +25 bandwidth and +1 drone controlled per Gallente BS level, since we're talking about exotic concepts like that.
I don't like sentries or drones in general, but 10 sentries sounds amazingly entertaining. (10) Sentries would be so ridiculously OP that CCP would nerf it the day it went live. Can you even imagine 1600 DPS in your face at up to 60km away instantly, changing targets at will with zero travel time, ability to set ALL Sentries from EVERY ship to support DPS from a single ship. There has been fantastic results with the Ishtar Sentry Alpha fleets. 40+ of them will melt anything sub cap instantly.
There is no reason to bring back more than (5) Drones per sub cap ship, none. All CCP has to do is increase the Primary Ship bonus Drone Dmg/HP of 10% per LvL to 15% per LvL and that's the same as an additional Drone at LvL 5. It would put those type of ships at ~1000 DPS with Heavy/Sentry Drones and 3-4 DDA's which is just about right for Drone DPS as a primary weapon system on actual Drone boats. They would need to reduce the number of weapon hardpoints on those ships by 1-2 to keep the DPS in line but that's no issue to real Drone users.
The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
535
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:19:00 -
[2450] - Quote
Drone control units have too much mass and cost too much. A simpler solution would just be to increase the drone hull and damage bonus and drone bay.
12.5% drone damage and hit points per level. Sentry drone bonus 425m3 drone bay. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
535
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:23:00 -
[2451] - Quote
Heh, just read the post above mine. So... Consensus on the Domi issue? Increase drone damage bonus to 12.5% or 15% and reduce weapon hardpoints? (and increase drone bay?)
All in favour say yay, all opposed say nay.
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
448
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:29:00 -
[2452] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Heh, just read the post above mine. So... Consensus on the Domi issue? Increase drone damage bonus to 12.5% or 15% and reduce weapon hardpoints? (and increase drone bay?)
All in favour say yay, all opposed say nay.
I'd be down for a 15% to damage and hitpoints per level as a single bonus stand alone bonus or to pair it with a tracking bonus.
|
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:29:00 -
[2453] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Heh, just read the post above mine. So... Consensus on the Domi issue? Increase drone damage bonus to 12.5% or 15% and reduce weapon hardpoints? (and increase drone bay?)
All in favour say yay, all opposed say nay.
AND, keep the new secondary bonus so my Garde IIs are stupidly OP
The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2824
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:38:00 -
[2454] - Quote
Just kidding about abandoning this thread. I love (the american, watered-down, devalued and fake version of love) Gallente spaceships.
Nay, for now.
Yay, after the issues with drone UI and mechanics are fixed. When we get to make mixed drone groups, launch groups without suffering through dropdown menus, when drones don't have cruiser-size sigs and noobship EHP, when their speeds are balanced against current ship speeds, when non-Gal/Min drones become usable, and when drone damage bonus gets extended to all kinds of drones.
If I'd really have to change the proposed Dominix to be more of a "dedicated drone ship", it would be this:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Effects and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
After all, the non-unique ability to use all kinds of mystical drones like sensor dampening, tracking disrupting, target painting and energy neutralizing drones is used as a justification for drone ships having less slots than other ships. As we all know, a drone ship is currently in much worse position to use EWAR drones than other ship types.
I feel that this change would truly emphasize the "drone boat" role, and simultaneously revive the unused drone types.
(ECM drone base jam strength would need to be halved, which is only a good thing for everybody)
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:24:00 -
[2455] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:There is no reason to bring back more than (5) Drones per sub cap ship, none. All CCP has to do is increase the Primary Ship bonus Drone Dmg/HP of 10% per LvL to 15% per LvL and that's the same as an additional Drone at LvL 5. It would put those type of ships at ~1000 DPS with Heavy/Sentry Drones and 3-4 DDA's which is just about right for Drone DPS as a primary weapon system on actual Drone boats. They would need to reduce the number of weapon hardpoints on those ships by 1-2 to keep the DPS in line but that's no issue to real Drone users.
Actually there would still be a reason to do it, and that reason would be to keep the dominix in line with the sub-battleship design philosophies for Amarr and Gallente drone boats. Amarr ships are supposed to be fewer/smaller drones on the field at once with more "reloads" for them while Gallente ships are supposed to field larger drones and/or more of them while being more sensitive to drone losses.
One of the things I noted in this topic was that the armageddon was highly unlikely to go below 125mb. Whether this is as likely as the dominix exceeding 125mb and getting the support necessary to make use of it I couldn't say, but if dropping the armageddon to below the dominix in terms of bandwidth is not a favorable solution then increasing the dominix's bandwidth might be.
Going back to the max 10 drones of yore would likely be a mistake, but CCP has made some pretty solid strides over the years with improving server hardware and the performance of the server software. It might not be a bad time to at least consider lifting the 5 drone cap for one or two drone boats and give them a six, seven tops, drone cap.
Roime wrote:If I'd really have to change the proposed Dominix to be more of a "dedicated drone ship", it would be this:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Effects and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
After all, the non-unique ability to use all kinds of mystical drones like sensor dampening, tracking disrupting, target painting and energy neutralizing drones is used as a justification for drone ships having less slots than other ships. As we all know, a drone ship is currently in much worse position to use EWAR drones than other ship types.
I feel that this change would truly emphasize the "drone boat" role, and simultaneously revive the unused drone types.
(ECM drone base jam strength would need to be halved, which is only a good thing for everybody)
At this point you might as well consider a 10%/level bonus to all core attributes, excepting resistances and stats like mass/sig, and a 5km/level bonus to drone control range. This means increased MWD/orbit speed, optimal/falloff range, tracking speed, damage, more effective EW/neut/rep drones, and so on, and they do it at base ranges up to 75km. |
Mata Hotaki
Garoun Exploration LLC
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:44:00 -
[2456] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote: I LOVE the new Domi change. As a drone user it's exactly what that ship needed. And CCP doesn't NEED to respond to people that are upset that some ship they fly is getting changed from the status quo they've been used to for years. It is THEIR game, we just play it. Either adapt or not.
And no matter what you tell yourself RoF is superior DPS to the same % + damage buff. It doesn't matter if it costs more ammo or cap, it DOES increase the DPS output.
You love the Domi change because you run missions with it (you said so yourself a few posts below). Yay - now with 50% more AFK.
Since now the changes were tested on SiSi, it looks like we got it right originally: the tracking/range bonuses are relevant mostly for sentries. There is no reason to choose a Domi over a Geddon for PVP.
It's my last post in this thread, and all my Domis are going on the market/contracts. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
206
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:13:00 -
[2457] - Quote
Could we get a better change than 10% more hit points per level for drones? I'd much rather have a resist or sig radius reduction. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1023
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:39:00 -
[2458] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Shereza wrote:With 122 pages I simply don't have the interest or energy to read through this topic to see if any of what I'm about to say has been mentioned. That said...
One thing that seems to be missing from the thought processes about people complaining about the usefulness of the proposed tracking/range bonus is how it affects smaller drones. Warrior IIs will have an optimal of 1875m along with a tracking speed of 4.86 at GalBS5. If they're dangerous for interceptors now then come expansion they'll run the risk of being positively lethal to them.
As for the second thing it deals with making the dominix unique and separating it from the proposed armageddon. It's a simple solution, and like all simple solutions it's probably a "bad" solution. It is still, in my opinion, a solution that can cover the current situation. Simply make 3 changes to the current dominix proposal. #1 Remove one or two turret hardpoints. #2 Increase the dominix's bandwidth by 25mb. #3 Allow the dominix to fit one Drone Control Unit.
If you remove two turret hardpoints while also allowing the dominix to field a sixth heavy/sentry drone it will do approximately as much DPS as it does now while further emphasizing the drone orientation of the ship and the "more/heavier deployed drones" philosophy that CCP is trying to apply to Gallente drone boats as compared to Amarr drone boats and their "more reloads" philosophy.
As I said though, it's a simple solution and it involves mixing things up in a way that CCP often frowns upon so it's likely not a good solution, but it does manage to cover the bases and make the dominix a bit more unique The Dominix being turned into a pocket carrier would be nice. Instead of the optimal and tracking bonus, change it to a +1 launched drones. Then remove a few high slots and all the turrets to increase it's drone bay to 750 m3. Presto!You now have a unique role for it as a battleship that is very different from the other battleships. If you let it have 10 drones + 10% damage it becomes OP against small targets, what could work though is +1 Drone Control per Level +10% Tracking and HP per Level
250Mbps 750m3 Drone Bay Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:44:00 -
[2459] - Quote
Okay, here's round two of my testing. Ships are fit the exact same as previous, only now with 2 Drone Link Augmentor IIs (each) and 1 Micro Jump Drive (each).
This time I used a shield tanked Stabber (purely active, no Sig Rad boosting penalties applied) as the target for the drones, switching it up a little. Test is otherwise the same, 1 round with mediums, 1 with heavies. One round with the target stationary, one orbiting 2,500m simulating scrammed, and one orbiting 2,500m while webbed. The stabber's high speed and lower signature radius, in my opinion, will make for a really good test comparing the Dominix to the Armageddon. The results will, hopefully (for the Dominix) show a clear superiority in DPS on the Dominix's side. I also did a test on Roime's suggestion of "fighting an interceptor by MJDing and blapping with sentries"
- Stabber: Stationary
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,100m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 28.23, with 90% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 34.1, with 97.5% accuracy
-Here we already see a huge improvement over the results we'd seen previously with the frigate. The Dominix pulls a VERY clear and concise lead over the Armageddon in effectively applied DPS. Although this situation is very unlikely in PvP, but yeah.
- Stabber: Stationary
- Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,200m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 53.18, with 75% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 61.2, with 80% accuracy
-Again, while the situation will be uncommon in most PvP, the Dominix came ahead the clear winner with higher accuracy and much higher DPS.
- Stabber: Orbit - Scrammed
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 950m to 1,700m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 35, with 97.5% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 33.02, with 90% accuracy
-Unfortunately, the Dominix not only did worse than the Armageddon here, it did worse than it did previously with the ship sitting still. It's entirely possible it just got really unlucky with the misses, but it still missed.
- Stabber: Orbit - Scrammed
- Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,850m to 2,900m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 52.25, with 80% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 59.45, with 92.5% accuracy
-Luckily (for it) the Dominix managed to reach out and take the lead where it really counts in this test: using oversized drones. The damage boost (about 11%) over the Armageddon isn't MUCH but it's noticeable, especially considering how much more reliable the damage was.
- Stabber: Orbit - Webbed
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,000m to 1,200m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 31.88, with 92.5% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 33.77, with 95% accuracy
-Dominix had a slight lead over the Stabber here. (At a point like this, the bonus, while noticeable, does not justifiably "make the Dominix a better drone boat" than the Armageddon)
- Stabber: Orbit - Webbed
- Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,100m to 1,300m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 43.63, with 70% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 61.52, with 90% accuracy
-Bingo. The real power of the Dominix's (tracking) bonus rears its head at exactly this moment, and it is at exactly this moment where the bonus for the first time becomes something actually respectable and not something to scoff at (disregarding sentry drones). That is a very distinct advantage on the Dominix's part.
So now with that test, we can see that the Dominix, against a properly tackled cruiser, gains a significant boost when using Heavy Drones against cruisers. It's nearly double the output of the drones you OUGHT to be using, as well. With optimism in hand, let's see if this bonus can also apply to Roime's suggestion of anti-interceptor combat, the glorious MicroJump Drive/Sentry Drone combo. In order to keep the test fair, Curator II sentries were chosen. The reason for this is, while they don't have the DPS and tracking of Gardes, or the range of Warden's, they offer a nice balance between the two at the moment. For the range they can achieve, they offer the highest level of tracking. And we need to keep the two ships AS CLOSE in performance to each other as we possibly can. Because if the Armageddon can do it as easily as the Dominix, then the Dominix's bonus becomes lackluster.
(tl;dr: I used Curators on both ships rather than buffing the range of Gardes on the Domi because even if the Dominix can do it with Gardes, if the 'Geddon can do it with Curators then the bonus doesn't matter [in this specific situation])
So here are the results:
Armageddon w/5x Curator IIs, Micro Jump Drive to ~100km from tackling interceptor. Deploy Drones, and engage target, while Interceptor is attempting to cover the distance (smartly)
Curators Destroy Interceptor: Y/N? -> N
The Curators did not manage to destroy the incoming Malediction. While they did hit and get some decent damage, an interceptor with 50% armor is tackling you just as easily as with 100%.
Dominix w/5x Curator IIs, Micro Jump Drive to ~100km from tackling interceptor. Deploy Drones, engage target during Interceptor approach.
Curators Destroy Interceptor: Y/N? -> N
Drat, the Dominix couldn't manage it on equal grounds. Still got a few shots into the poor Inty, but it wasn't enough.
[Another potential test may be performed shortly] Save the drones! |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:44:00 -
[2460] - Quote
My overall opinion from the tests thus far: The bonus is still a LITTLE underwhelming to me. There are a few things that, when put together, completely nullify that and would make the Dominix a beyond phenomenal ship, worthy of its status as the premiere drone ship of EVE. The drone UI needs fixed, for one (this doesn't help just the Domi but still). Sentry drones need a serious looking at by CCP. A little love on them will go a long way. And finally, give the Dominix a boost to the use of EWAR drones (ECM, Target Painting, Webify, Sensor Dampening, etc) per level.
You can reduce the amount for the ECM drone effectiveness from 10% to 5% or even 2% if you felt it was necessary. But if the Dominix could use ANY drone with a decent boost to its effectiveness, it could help restore that feeling of immense versatility it always had before the inclusion of the Armageddon. Because before the Dominix was the only ship that could use a plethora of drones to make its fits truly unique. I think CCP should consider a small boost to all drone's effectiveness for the Dominix, especially over giving it extra damage or allowing it to use extra drones. Those "fixes" are just too... linear, complicated (in the case of extra drones), and predictable.
What do you all think? Save the drones! |
|
Temai
The Scope
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:26:00 -
[2461] - Quote
ExAstra good work on the tests
a lot of people have said it in this thread but the current Domi plan isnt all that grate some people do genuanly seem to like it as i have stated however i view it as a Joke in the Joke.
I do agree with the Effects Buff to Drones this would put the Domi in a Strong Drone ship and then with later Drone buffs it could be reviewd if to stong but i 100% Agreee Effects would be better than the Current Planed "thing"
- Temai - Lost in Space looking for a Home dreaming of building outpost's acrross EVE - |
Screenlag
Aperture Harmonics K162
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:35:00 -
[2462] - Quote
Have the Megathron been nerfed even more? Only 75 BW as well as 75m3 dronebay? Wish we'd get that 8th turret as compensation. Don't understand why the hyperion is getting such an awesome drone potential instead of the attack megathron |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
543
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:38:00 -
[2463] - Quote
The Megathron gained an 8% turret dps increase before considering what an extra low gives you. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2844
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:10:00 -
[2464] - Quote
Great testing again, ExAstra!
I'm not surprised that you can't hit a ceptor with Curators, but the new Domi will exploit omnidirectional links on top of the hull bonus. The extra midslot just extends it's tracking advantage over Armageddons.
Both are obviously battleships you don't want to tackle in a small ship. Inties have better chances against Domi, but then again inties are bad at holding MJD fits.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3683
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:35:00 -
[2465] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Okay, here's round two of my testing. Ships are fit the exact same as previous, only now with 2 Drone Link Augmentor IIs (each) and 1 Micro Jump Drive (each). This time I used a shield tanked Stabber (purely active, no Sig Rad boosting penalties applied) as the target for the drones, switching it up a little. Test is otherwise the same, 1 round with mediums, 1 with heavies. One round with the target stationary, one orbiting 2,500m simulating scrammed, and one orbiting 2,500m while webbed. The stabber's high speed and lower signature radius, in my opinion, will make for a really good test comparing the Dominix to the Armageddon. The results will, hopefully (for the Dominix) show a clear superiority in DPS on the Dominix's side. I also did a test on Roime's suggestion of "fighting an interceptor by MJDing and blapping with sentries"
- Stabber: Stationary
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,100m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 28.23, with 90% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 34.1, with 97.5% accuracy
-Here we already see a huge improvement over the results we'd seen previously with the frigate. The Dominix pulls a VERY clear and concise lead over the Armageddon in effectively applied DPS. Although this situation is very unlikely in PvP, but yeah.
- Stabber: Stationary
- Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,200m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 53.18, with 75% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 61.2, with 80% accuracy
-Again, while the situation will be uncommon in most PvP, the Dominix came ahead the clear winner with higher accuracy and much higher DPS.
- Stabber: Orbit - Scrammed
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 950m to 1,700m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 35, with 97.5% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 33.02, with 90% accuracy
-Unfortunately, the Dominix not only did worse than the Armageddon here, it did worse than it did previously with the ship sitting still. It's entirely possible it just got really unlucky with the misses, but it still missed.
- Stabber: Orbit - Scrammed
- Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,850m to 2,900m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 52.25, with 80% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 59.45, with 92.5% accuracy
-Luckily (for it) the Dominix managed to reach out and take the lead where it really counts in this test: using oversized drones. The damage boost (about 11%) over the Armageddon isn't MUCH but it's noticeable, especially considering how much more reliable the damage was.
- Stabber: Orbit - Webbed
- Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,000m to 1,200m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 31.88, with 92.5% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 33.77, with 95% accuracy
-Dominix had a slight lead over the Stabber here. (At a point like this, the bonus, while noticeable, does not justifiably "make the Dominix a better drone boat" than the Armageddon)
- Stabber: Orbit - Webbed
- Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,100m to 1,300m
- Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 43.63, with 70% accuracy
- Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 61.52, with 90% accuracy
- Bingo. The real power of the Dominix's (tracking) bonus rears its head at exactly this moment, and it is at exactly this moment where the bonus for the first time becomes something actually respectable and not something to scoff at (disregarding sentry drones). That is a very distinct advantage on the Dominix's part. So now with that test, we can see that the Dominix, against a properly tackled cruiser, gains a significant boost when using Heavy Drones against cruisers. It's nearly double the output of the drones you OUGHT to be using, as well. With optimism in hand, let's see if this bonus can also apply to Roime's suggestion of anti-interceptor combat, the glorious MicroJump Drive/Sentry Drone combo. In order to keep the test fair, Curator II sentries were chosen. The reason for this is, while they don't have the DPS and tracking of Gardes, or the range of Warden's, they offer a nice balance between the two at the moment. For the range they can achieve, they offer the highest level of tracking. And we need to keep the two ships AS CLOSE in performance to each other as we possibly can. Because if the Armageddon can do it as easily as the Dominix, then the Dominix's bonus becomes lackluster. (tl;dr: I used Curators on both ships rather than buffing the range of Gardes on the Domi because even if the Dominix can do it with Gardes, if the 'Geddon can do it with Curators then the bonus doesn't matter [in this specific situation]) So here are the results: Armageddon w/5x Curator IIs, Micro Jump Drive to ~100km from tackling interceptor. Deploy Drones, and engage target, while Interceptor is attempting to cover the distance (smartly) Curators Destroy Interceptor: Y/N? -> N The Curators did not manage to destroy the incoming Malediction. While they did hit and get some decent damage, an interceptor with 50% armor is tackling you just as easily as with 100%. Dominix w/5x Curator IIs, Micro Jump Drive to ~100km from tackling interceptor. Deploy Drones, engage target during Interceptor approach. Curators Destroy Interceptor: Y/N? -> N Drat, the Dominix couldn't manage it on equal grounds. Still got a few shots into the poor Inty, but it wasn't enough. [Another potential test may be performed shortly] Perhaps I missed the part where you did a test with the Armageddon neuting the **** out of the test targets so they have no propulsion.
|
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:56:00 -
[2466] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:And finally, give the Dominix a boost to the use of EWAR drones (ECM, Target Painting, Webify, Sensor Dampening, rep drones, etc) per level.
You can reduce the amount for the ECM drone effectiveness from 10% to 5% or even 2% if you felt it was necessary. But if the Dominix could use ANY drone with a decent boost to its effectiveness, it could help restore that feeling of immense versatility it always had before the inclusion of the Armageddon. Because before the Dominix was the only ship that could use a plethora of drones to make its fits truly unique. I think CCP should consider a small boost to all drone's effectiveness for the Dominix, especially over giving it extra damage or allowing it to use extra drones. Those "fixes" are just too... linear, complicated (in the case of extra drones), and predictable.
What do you all think?
Would a 10% bonus to damage and a 5% bonus to most other stats excluding mass/signature be overpowered? For those who might be asking about the 10% HP bonus being reduced to 5% consider what it means when most other stats includes drone resistances and drones get an across the board 25% resistance boost for armor and shields. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2844
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:56:00 -
[2467] - Quote
Implying a Domi couldn't neut out a single cruiser.
Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:56:00 -
[2468] - Quote
Quote:You love the Domi change because you run missions with it (you said so yourself a few posts below). Yay - now with 50% more AFK.
Since now the changes were tested on SiSi, it looks like we got it right originally: the tracking/range bonuses are relevant mostly for sentries. There is no reason to choose a Domi over a Geddon for PVP. Yes the new secondary bonus is 100% meant for Sentries which is what most Mission Drone boats use, NO, I do not EVER AFK missions, I blitz them as fast as humanly possible to increase my ISK/hr.
The Domi will STILL be capable of more DPS in your face than the geddon after Odyssey, to the tone of a little over 1500 DPS with Neutrons/Ogres. The Turtle Domi's will not be effected in ANY way by the change (they actually get MORE EHP). DomiNeut will not be effected in ANY way by the change, except even more cap (although geddon is superior in that role after). LogiDomi will not be effected in ANY way by the change (except more cap and EHP). You see where I'm going here.
All you people that are butt hurt that you're losing the highest capable T1 BS (non-Pirate) dps in the game for PvP just make yourselves look even more pathetic. So what if the DPS drops from 1800+ (2k OH) to 1500+ (1.7k OH) with Odyssey, that's in line with the DPS from ALL of the other BS's used in PvP (incl Imps). On top of it all the Domi is getting a GIGANTIC increase in EHP and a little help with cap.
Quote:Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries? It will certainly help all Drones but not by the sheer magnitude that it'll help Sentries. The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2844
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:59:00 -
[2469] - Quote
Shereza wrote:ExAstra wrote:And finally, give the Dominix a boost to the use of EWAR drones (ECM, Target Painting, Webify, Sensor Dampening, rep drones, etc) per level.
You can reduce the amount for the ECM drone effectiveness from 10% to 5% or even 2% if you felt it was necessary. But if the Dominix could use ANY drone with a decent boost to its effectiveness, it could help restore that feeling of immense versatility it always had before the inclusion of the Armageddon. Because before the Dominix was the only ship that could use a plethora of drones to make its fits truly unique. I think CCP should consider a small boost to all drone's effectiveness for the Dominix, especially over giving it extra damage or allowing it to use extra drones. Those "fixes" are just too... linear, complicated (in the case of extra drones), and predictable.
What do you all think? Would a 10% bonus to damage and a 5% bonus to most other stats excluding mass/signature be overpowered? For those who might be asking about the 10% HP bonus being reduced to 5% consider what it means when most other stats includes drone resistances and drones get an across the board 25% resistance boost for armor and shields.
The drone base stats themselves should be adjusted, and not fixed with bonuses of a single ship. They are an issue an all drone ships, not just Domi.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
448
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:13:00 -
[2470] - Quote
Screenlag wrote:Have the Megathron been nerfed even more? Only 75 BW as well as 75m3 dronebay? Wish we'd get that 8th turret as compensation. Don't understand why the hyperion is getting such an awesome drone potential instead of the attack megathron
You got 8% more turret dps and another low slot which results in quite a bit more dps compared to the current mega even factoring in the loss of drones.
I do somewhat agree tho, mega should be granted 25m3 bandwith and sit at 100m3/100m3. The extra 70 dps from a heavy drone would cure the severe case of whining that has infested this thread from the start.
|
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ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
88
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:00:00 -
[2471] - Quote
Roime wrote:Great testing again, ExAstra!
I'm not surprised that you can't hit a ceptor with Curators, but the new Domi will exploit omnidirectional links on top of the hull bonus. The extra midslot just extends it's tracking advantage over Armageddons.
Both are obviously battleships you don't want to tackle in a small ship. Inties have better chances against Domi, but then again inties are bad at holding MJD fits. Thanks. And the test I mentioned I'm planning to do is basically giving the Domi a single OTL II and trying again with both Curators and Gardes (on both ships, but with only the Domi fitting an OTL as it has +1 mid). We'll see how that works out shortly.
Marlona Sky wrote:Perhaps I missed the part where you did a test with the Armageddon neuting the **** out of the test targets so they have no propulsion. Why yes, you did miss my comment on that. And every other comment I've made in this freaking thread detailing why I think the Dominix is not as attractive as the Armageddon (and why I am upset by that). Good job. You realize the point of the test is to check how much more effective the Domi's new bonus makes it vs. the Armageddon on equal terms right? Oh wait, stupid question, you obviously didn't get the memo:
Quote:(tl;dr: I used Curators on both ships rather than buffing the range of Gardes on the Domi because even if the Dominix can do it with Gardes, if the 'Geddon can do it with Curators then the bonus doesn't matter [in this specific situation]) ^^^ That same situation also applies to the light drone test, ie. if the Dominix can't outshine the 'Geddon on completely equal terms then the bonus is a waste.
Shereza wrote:Would a 10% bonus to damage and a 5% bonus to most other stats excluding mass/signature be overpowered? For those who might be asking about the 10% HP bonus being reduced to 5% consider what it means when most other stats includes drone resistances and drones get an across the board 25% resistance boost for armor and shields. Would it be overpowered? I can't say. But from what I can see, giving the Dominix a boost to all drone abilities opens up a world of possibilities for it to fit. It could become a TRUE Jack-of-all-trades ship in that aspect. It could rely on drones for EW abilities and its highs for DPS, it could rely on its highs and mediums for utility and its drones for DPS, etc. The bottom line is IF CCP were to give the Dominix a drone effect/stat bonus, it should NOT get an increase in Drone Bay. That's my personal opinion and I believe it's well founded. Giving it too big of a drone bay with a bonus like that WOULD be too much. But the drone "effects" bonus would put the ship back on my list of "Awww yeah" ships, like the Hyperion has now moved to because of its tiercide update. I agree with Roime on this issue, quote: "The drone base stats themselves should be adjusted, and not fixed with bonuses of a single ship. They are an issue an all drone ships, not just Domi."
Roime wrote: Implying a Domi couldn't neut out a single cruiser.
Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries?
Considering I've mentioned this time and again, no, not really. I just personally didn't feel it was enough (and still think it's not QUITE enough, though I am feeling a bit better about the bonus after testing). The last real remaining issue is that the bonus doesn't help much against battleships. I know from experience that heavy drones don't really have too big of an issue vs battleships so it will probably yield the lowest improvements. I may do a less-extensive test on that just to be sure though. Save the drones! |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2847
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:25:00 -
[2472] - Quote
That's a good point about damage vs BS, tracking won't play a role in that. I'd expect it to die to the Geddon in a duel (iknorite, bs duel :D) unless you are able to exploit the tracking and webbing to dispose the opponent drones.
Then again, there are the sentries :) their projection is unparalled, and I don't really doubt that new tactics wouldn't evolve around them.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:39:00 -
[2473] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Considering I've mentioned this time and again, no, not really. I just personally didn't feel it was enough (and still think it's not QUITE enough, though I am feeling a bit better about the bonus after testing). The last real remaining issue is that the bonus doesn't help much against battleships. I know from experience that heavy drones don't really have too big of an issue vs battleships so it will probably yield the lowest improvements. I may do a less-extensive test on that just to be sure though. You are making a very great job with all these tests, but I think one test is missing : light drones chasing a MWDing frigate, because that's the best way, IMO, to get rid of a frigate, and I think the speeds and flight paths involved may show a difference between Arma and Domi.
Heavy drones on BS though, I'm not sure about the usefulness. Moreover considering the results with a stabber, a BS have more than three times larger signature radius. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:41:00 -
[2474] - Quote
Roime wrote:That's a good point about damage vs BS, tracking won't play a role in that. I'd expect it to die to the Geddon in a duel (iknorite, bs duel :D) unless you are able to exploit the tracking and webbing to dispose the opponent drones.
Then again, there are the sentries :) their projection is unparalled, and I don't really doubt that new tactics wouldn't evolve around them. Though the Domi could exploit its superior drone tracking to kill the Armageddon drones ! :D Drone fighting around the ships, like in movies ! |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:55:00 -
[2475] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ExAstra wrote:Considering I've mentioned this time and again, no, not really. I just personally didn't feel it was enough (and still think it's not QUITE enough, though I am feeling a bit better about the bonus after testing). The last real remaining issue is that the bonus doesn't help much against battleships. I know from experience that heavy drones don't really have too big of an issue vs battleships so it will probably yield the lowest improvements. I may do a less-extensive test on that just to be sure though. You are making a very great job with all these tests, but I think one test is missing : light drones chasing a MWDing frigate, because that's the best way, IMO, to get rid of a frigate, and I think the speeds and flight paths involved may show a difference between Arma and Domi. Heavy drones on BS though, I'm not sure about the usefulness. Moreover considering the results with a stabber, a BS have more than three times larger signature radius. Well I'm not exactly finished testing, like I said. I figured it'd be more productive to get the basics down first (semi-tackled and full tackled) and work on AB/MWD testing a little later. The testing is kind of dull so I can only do so much at one time, haha. But yeah, vs Battleships the Domi's new bonus (both optimal and tracking) become slightly moot. Obviously Dominix still gets the advantage with sentries but part of the point of this testing was to verify how useful the bonus was NOT applied to sentry drones. Save the drones! |
Mata Hotaki
Garoun Exploration LLC
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:10:00 -
[2476] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:Yes the new secondary bonus is 100% meant for Sentries which is what most Mission Drone boats use, NO, I do not EVER AFK missions, I blitz them as fast as humanly possible to increase my ISK/hr. The Domi will STILL be capable of more DPS in your face than the geddon after Odyssey, to the tone of a little over 1500 DPS with Neutrons/Ogres. The Turtle Domi's will not be effected in ANY way by the change (they actually get MORE EHP). DomiNeut will not be effected in ANY way by the change, except even more cap (although geddon is superior in that role after). LogiDomi will not be effected in ANY way by the change (except more cap and EHP). You see where I'm going here. All you people that are butt hurt that you're losing the highest capable T1 BS (non-Pirate) dps in the game for PvP just make yourselves look even more pathetic. So what if the DPS drops from 1800+ (2k OH) to 1500+ (1.7k OH) with Odyssey, that's in line with the DPS from ALL of the other BS's used in PvP (incl Imps). On top of it all the Domi is getting a GIGANTIC increase in EHP and a little help with cap. Quote:Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries? It will certainly help all Drones but not by the sheer magnitude that it'll help Sentries.
No, that is not what our argument is about (and I am not calling your side "pathetic").
And yes, the new Domi is more "powerful" than the current TQ Domi, on EHP grounds alone. Nobody is disputing that.
However, there is zero reason to use the new Domi in PVP over Geddon - unless I am using sentries. Look at the tests in this thread, now with cruiser-sized target, too. Now, look at pros of each.
Domi: Pro: Maybe 10% more damage, if you are lucky and against proper (cruiser/frigate) targets. Super tracking/sniping sentries. Midslot. Slightly faster and more agile
Geddon: Pro: Moar armor (6.25%). Neuts @40K, for 10% Bhaalgorn price Can fit either guns or missiles Two utility slots A LOT of PG
Would you, after looking at this, choose the Domi as your go-to BS for PVP? No, I did not think so. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2848
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:36:00 -
[2477] - Quote
10% :D
Domi does about 30% more damage with oversized drones against a hard tackled target. It will also hit support cruisers at range with 700dps. Perhaps it's hard to accept, but these are really good reasons to fly a Domi.
The Bhaal gets a bonus to neuting, Geddon only to range. Yes that means it can neut beyond long point range, but I think you overestimate the usefulness of this. Small gang tends to happen inside tackle range, and 40k is not enough to reach logis. It can fit more neuts than the Domi, which makes it better against caps and multiple targets, but against a single target there's little practical advantage from the additional neuts.
In the end this just means that there are two solid drone battleships, which can be fitted with same skills. Train both Amarr and Gal BS V and choose whichever suits the situation best.
I'll choose the Domi for general use, because damage application > neuts.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
250
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:05:00 -
[2478] - Quote
How about a drone speed bonus for the domi as well? Range I think only really benefits sentry drones. I know sentry drones are better than heavy drones, but this might close the gap a little. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3696
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:22:00 -
[2479] - Quote
@ ExAstra
That is why I asked. Forgive me for not keeping up on 123 pages to see where you mentioned this.
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
90
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:01:00 -
[2480] - Quote
Roime wrote:10% :D
Domi does about 30% more damage with oversized drones against a hard tackled target. It will also hit support cruisers at range with 700dps. Perhaps it's hard to accept, but these are really good reasons to fly a Domi.
The Bhaal gets a bonus to neuting, Geddon only to range. Yes that means it can neut beyond long point range, but I think you overestimate the usefulness of this. Small gang tends to happen inside tackle range, and 40k is not enough to reach logis. It can fit more neuts than the Domi, which makes it better against caps and multiple targets, but against a single target there's little practical advantage from the additional neuts.
In the end this just means that there are two solid drone battleships, which can be fitted with same skills. Train both Amarr and Gal BS V and choose whichever suits the situation best.
I'll choose the Domi for general use, because damage application > neuts.
P.S. The only situation where you get any mileage out of the Geddon's neut bonus is when the target is between 24-40km. In every other situation it's completely wasted. A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). So, quite a bit less than 30%, but (let's just say 15%, for a nice number) 15% effective DPS increase isn't that bad, and is a bit more than I was initially expecting.
Marlona Sky wrote:That is why I asked. Forgive me for not keeping up on 123 pages to see where you mentioned this. Well the quote I posted in my remark came from the same post you quoted and commented on. And the other test was only 3 pages back (there's no way you could necessarily know that and nobody is holding you accountable for not seeing/knowing) Save the drones! |
|
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2851
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:57:00 -
[2481] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). So, quite a bit less than 30%, but (let's just say 15%, for a nice number) 15% effective DPS increase isn't that bad, and is a bit more than I was initially expecting.
I did specify hard tackle, in which cases the difference is about 30%, or at least in that range with no calculators hurt in the process.
Quote:And the 24-40km application range is true only for large neuts, but the pilot has the options of twin mediums or smalls (lawl?) as well. I'm guessing you could downsize the neuts for a bit better fitting awesomes? Not sure cuz I can't figure out how to manually change ship bonuses and stats in Pyfa.
One of the strong points of the Geddon (like you mentioned) is fitting, it doesn't really need to downsize neuts. It is a very nice substitute for a Bhaal for neuting because of this, not so much for the range bonus.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
90
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:32:00 -
[2482] - Quote
Roime wrote:ExAstra wrote:A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). So, quite a bit less than 30%, but (let's just say 15%, for a nice number) 15% effective DPS increase isn't that bad, and is a bit more than I was initially expecting. I did specify hard tackle, in which cases the difference is about 30%, or at least in that range with no calculators hurt in the process. Quote:And the 24-40km application range is true only for large neuts, but the pilot has the options of twin mediums or smalls (lawl?) as well. I'm guessing you could downsize the neuts for a bit better fitting awesomes? Not sure cuz I can't figure out how to manually change ship bonuses and stats in Pyfa. One of the strong points of the Geddon (like you mentioned) is fitting, it doesn't really need to downsize neuts. It is a very nice substitute for a Bhaal for neuting because of this, not so much for the range bonus. I know you specified hard tackle, but Mata Hotaki used 10% as a blanket, so I just figured out what the average blanket increase was. And yeah, the Geddon has great fitting but I have no idea what it's like trying to make one atm, was mostly just trying to dream up a situation.
The Armageddon will make a really nice, cheap neuting platform though, considering it's everything the TQ Domi is and more, minus the raw hybrid damage. And let's face it, the Dominix is pretty friggin' sweet. Save the drones! |
mine mi
Boinas Rojas Gentlemen's Agreement
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 19:21:00 -
[2483] - Quote
the hyperion can use, one more medium,instead of one utility high slot because, there more mids modules they can use, ( micro jump, ewar, cap boosters, eccm) than high modules. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
166
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:22:00 -
[2484] - Quote
mine mi wrote:the hyperion can use, one more medium,instead of one utility high slot because, there more mids modules they can use, ( micro jump, ewar, cap boosters, eccm) than high modules. Meh the Hype is looking much better for Odyssey than it has in years. I was so busy drooling over the new Domi I only realized the Hype's new found awesomeness last night, and I'm very happy. It was after all my first BS (that I lost to a LvL 4 fail) but I always did love the look and sheer size of that ship.
EDIT: And to those saying new Geddon over new Domi in PvP I will say this... I don't want to fight that new Geddon with ANY ship, it makes me wet my pants The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Perihelion Olenard
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 00:43:00 -
[2485] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:... I don't want to fight that new Geddon with ANY ship, it makes me wet my pants I would in a plated Hyperion. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Broxus Maximas
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 01:32:00 -
[2486] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:mine mi wrote:the hyperion can use, one more medium,instead of one utility high slot because, there more mids modules they can use, ( micro jump, ewar, cap boosters, eccm) than high modules. Meh the Hype is looking much better for Odyssey than it has in years. I was so busy drooling over the new Domi I only realized the Hype's new found awesomeness last night, and I'm very happy. It was after all my first BS (that I lost to a LvL 4 fail) but I always did love the look and sheer size of that ship. EDIT: And to those saying new Geddon over new Domi in PvP I will say this... I don't want to fight that new Geddon with ANY ship, it makes me wet my pants
You do realize the new Domi received a pretty large nerf since it lost 25% gun damage? People seem to forget to get that weaksauce skill we lost a large chunk of DPS.
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1032
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 02:05:00 -
[2487] - Quote
Broxus Maximas wrote:DeLindsay wrote:mine mi wrote:the hyperion can use, one more medium,instead of one utility high slot because, there more mids modules they can use, ( micro jump, ewar, cap boosters, eccm) than high modules. Meh the Hype is looking much better for Odyssey than it has in years. I was so busy drooling over the new Domi I only realized the Hype's new found awesomeness last night, and I'm very happy. It was after all my first BS (that I lost to a LvL 4 fail) but I always did love the look and sheer size of that ship. EDIT: And to those saying new Geddon over new Domi in PvP I will say this... I don't want to fight that new Geddon with ANY ship, it makes me wet my pants You do realize the new Domi received a pretty large nerf since it lost 25% gun damage? People seem to forget to get that weaksauce skill we lost a large chunk of DPS. On the total DPS of a full gank fit Dominix, how much DPS is lost from the 25%? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 02:39:00 -
[2488] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:On the total DPS of a full gank fit Dominix, how much DPS is lost from the 25%? Given overheat and faction ammo, it's about a 15% loss..... if you are using blasters. But why would you? If you wanted a full gank ship, you would use a Mega or Hype now. Y'know, ships that actually have a bonus and do more damage gank fit.
The new Domi will end up in the same position most ships do that lack a damage bonus - they will fit ACs. Before the Blaster buff where they reduced the PG reqs, I flew AC Domis quite regularly with great success. So it's not a tragic loss. Annoying and unnecessary, but not tragic.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 02:41:00 -
[2489] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:On the total DPS of a full gank fit Dominix, how much DPS is lost from the 25%? It's easy to determine : you must first assess the proportion of your gun dps vs drone dps ; let's call x the gun portion. At best, your gun portion is 50% (because you won't do a lot more than 800dps with your guns unless you sacrifice everything else).. Then, multiply the bonus by this portion : 25* 50% = 12,5% (at best).
So, in the worst case (when you sacrificed everything for gun dps), you actualy lose 12,5% dps, which is a lot, but not so scary anymore.
To achieve 50% gun ratio, you need 6 ion blasters (neutron don't fit) and same number of damage mod for drones and guns.
Fix for the futur : replace a MFS with a DDA, and you'll see almost nothing ! |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1032
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 02:45:00 -
[2490] - Quote
Ty, but it was more to show that the loss of the 25% gun DPS was not all the much in the long run. I believe I had this very discussion in the first few pages of the thread. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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Otto Schultzky
Steller Exiles Inc Carthage Empires
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 03:41:00 -
[2491] - Quote
I am probably late to the party, but non the less.
Hyperion changes are welcome, but basically it becomes a current Megathron with a repair bonus instead of a tracking bonus.
Megathron will basically be a fatter and much slower Talos, with more tank and less gank.
Dominx on the other hand, becomes a dedicated drone potato with somewhat useless drone optimal range. Useless, because I will have to fit more Drone Link Augmenters then guns to make use of that on anythig other then Garde sentry drones and optimal range bonus on anything other then sentry drones is practically worthless.
Honestly I would rather see that Dominix gets a 5km to 7.5km to drone control range per level, then 10% to drone optimal per level. This way you can at least fit 6 guns on it and have a decent drone control range.
P.S.
The more i look at the proposed changes, the more it reminds me of Dominion = Minmatar buff |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
166
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 03:42:00 -
[2492] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:DeLindsay wrote:... I don't want to fight that new Geddon with ANY ship, it makes me wet my pants I would in a plated Hyperion. Him seeing me in a ship with an active tanking bonus may make him aggress if he were at a gate or station. It'll last until friends arrive. Indeed, and I was exaggerating about how mean the Geddon will be, but it's still gonna be beast come Odyssey.
Quote:You do realize the new Domi received a pretty large nerf since it lost 25% gun damage? People seem to forget to get that weaksauce skill we lost a large chunk of DPS. Nobody is forgetting that the Domi lost 25% Gun dmg as that's the ONLY reason anyone is complaining about the Odyssey Domi. Even CCP tried on multiple posts to point out the FACT that at current the Domi has the highest (non-pirate) DPS for any sub cap ship in the game. It completely overshadows all other T1 BS's in DPS output. The 25% loss will reduce it's non-overheated, Void ammo + Ogre IIs dps to about 1550, still a VERY good dps number and in line with all other T1 BS's.
They are also giving the Domi a GIGANTIC EHP buff, making it even more nasty in turtle gangs than it already was. The new secondary will help regular Drones but not near as much as Sentries (more a PvE aspect for sure). It gets a pretty serious Cap boost and more grid (which it seriously needed). All in all the Odyssey Domi will be fantastic and not at all the dead space potato everyone is crying it will be. This happens in every MMO right before a change, then a bit after said changes everyone learns how to still be effective in what they were doing before and the crying stops.
The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 15:36:00 -
[2493] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote: Nobody is forgetting that the Domi lost 25% Gun dmg as that's the ONLY reason anyone is complaining about the Odyssey Domi.
No. Get with the program. There maybe the odd straggler moaning they want the hybrid bonus again but most of the debaters are trying to figure out a way to get the Domi to work in a PvP situation with a stationary weapon system in a game where people are arguing about how a few + or - km/s makes or breaks other boats.
Also I wish Roime would do another "Dear Sir, your PvE desires have little to do with the current balance argument" post. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
93
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 15:56:00 -
[2494] - Quote
If we look at a bare Dominix on Tranquility it gets 562 DPS with Void and 475 DPS with Ogre IIs. The removal of the Hybrid damage bonus drops the DPS from 562 to 449.6.
You can overheat, add damage mods, etc. as you like from that point, but 120 DPS isn't as much of "nothing" as about half of the people here feel. It's also not as much of "everything" as the other half seems to feel. Personally I don't mind it being removed, I just feel underwhelmed by its replacement bonus. Save the drones! |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
888
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:13:00 -
[2495] - Quote
Hi guys
I have a small update for you: we are going to bump the Megathron CPU up by 30, to a total of 600.
By adding a low and also trying to coax people towards rails slightly, CPU would have been under a little too much pressure.
I know after a hundred pages this feels like a very small acknowledgment in the scheme of things, and we are certainly aware of that. A lot of the argument surrounding most of the battleship balance seems focused on whether or not these ships will actually perform in the roles they've been assigned to warrant their use. For that, we feel like we are at a point where we need to see how they do on tranquility. After release we will evaluate again, and if something isn't working out it will be addressed.
I will keep reading these threads in the mean time so don't hesitate to keep discussing the changes.
Thanks, o/ |
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:18:00 -
[2496] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
I have a small update for you: we are going to bump the Megathron CPU up by 30, to a total of 600.
By adding a low and also trying to coax people towards rails slightly, CPU would have been under a little too much pressure.
I know after a hundred pages this feels like a very small acknowledgment in the scheme of things, and we are certainly aware of that. A lot of the argument surrounding most of the battleship balance seems focused on whether or not these ships will actually perform in the roles they've been assigned to warrant their use. For that, we feel like we are at a point where we need to see how they do on tranquility. After release we will evaluate again, and if something isn't working out it will be addressed.
I will keep reading these threads in the mean time so don't hesitate to keep discussing the changes.
Thanks, o/
Rise please respond to this for the people who liked the original post of the shield mega. Why do you object to the 7-5-7 layout? as it is the Hype when dual rep fitted will be more mobile than the dual plated mega which is meant to be the attack battleship.
'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
93
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:22:00 -
[2497] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
I have a small update for you: we are going to bump the Megathron CPU up by 30, to a total of 600.
By adding a low and also trying to coax people towards rails slightly, CPU would have been under a little too much pressure.
I know after a hundred pages this feels like a very small acknowledgment in the scheme of things, and we are certainly aware of that. A lot of the argument surrounding most of the battleship balance seems focused on whether or not these ships will actually perform in the roles they've been assigned to warrant their use. For that, we feel like we are at a point where we need to see how they do on tranquility. After release we will evaluate again, and if something isn't working out it will be addressed.
I will keep reading these threads in the mean time so don't hesitate to keep discussing the changes.
Thanks, o/ As small as that is, I almost died when you said the Megathron is getting CPU up. That is absolutely fantastic. Also good to know that you are/have been reading the thread. I guess we'll see where Tranquility takes us then.
Jonas Sukarala wrote:Rise please respond to this for the people who liked the original post of the shield mega. Why do you object to the 7-5-7 layout? as it is the Hype when dual rep fitted will be more mobile than the dual plated mega which is meant to be the attack battleship. Dear god please stop with the Shield Mega bullcrap already! Save the drones! |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2863
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:24:00 -
[2498] - Quote
That helps the fleet Mega fits, however well they do in in the current meta is up to the blobists to find out. The whole "Attack BS" concept is still mysterious to me, and there's very little the Mega can do in a small gang that they Hype couldn't do- so what's the attack component then for a rail blob ship?
Also, I take that as a no to the sentry fix then? I hope you recognize that the intended role for Domi hinges on adjustment to sentry scoop range or mechanics.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
93
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:26:00 -
[2499] - Quote
Roime wrote:That helps the fleet Mega fits, however well they do in in the current meta is up to the blobists to find out. The whole "Attack BS" concept is still mysterious to me, and there's very little the Mega can do in a small gang that they Hype couldn't do- so what's the attack component then for a rail blob ship?
Also, I take that as a no to the sentry fix then? I hope you recognize that the intended role for Domi hinges on adjustment to sentry scoop range or mechanics.
We just have to throw some ISKies out the window by trying to make effective Domi's in PvP before CCP is gonna fix it. At least, I think that's what he said. Save the drones! |
IceDe4d
Kath's Menagerie
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:28:00 -
[2500] - Quote
loged on sisi today, first thing i did was buying a hyper and try to fit it.... for me it feels like all my dreams about a nice hyper came true. I have enough grid and cpu to fit what i want and the much needed 7th low makes it the best gallente bs now. The Mega needs the 5 heavy drones back otherwise it makes no sense for me to use it anymore. Im speeking from a low sec pirate perspective with max skills and pvp use only anway looking forward to some hyper action :) |
|
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2864
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:36:00 -
[2501] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Roime wrote:That helps the fleet Mega fits, however well they do in in the current meta is up to the blobists to find out. The whole "Attack BS" concept is still mysterious to me, and there's very little the Mega can do in a small gang that they Hype couldn't do- so what's the attack component then for a rail blob ship?
Also, I take that as a no to the sentry fix then? I hope you recognize that the intended role for Domi hinges on adjustment to sentry scoop range or mechanics.
We just have to throw some ISKies out the window by trying to make effective Domi's in PvP before CCP is gonna fix it. At least, I think that's what he said.
Well I personally don't find sentries problematic at all in a small gang context, instead their immobile nature allows for many interesting tricks. I've never ran out of drones. However in those situations sentries are not subject to staggered bombers or fleet warps. Obviously the fixes that fleets need would help small gangers and PVErs as well, the 2500m scoop range is highly impractical. Just dropping them right after exiting warp will cause a Domi to drift outside their range, and orbiting them may also take you too far from one sentry.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:45:00 -
[2502] - Quote
Roime wrote:ExAstra wrote:Roime wrote:That helps the fleet Mega fits, however well they do in in the current meta is up to the blobists to find out. The whole "Attack BS" concept is still mysterious to me, and there's very little the Mega can do in a small gang that they Hype couldn't do- so what's the attack component then for a rail blob ship?
Also, I take that as a no to the sentry fix then? I hope you recognize that the intended role for Domi hinges on adjustment to sentry scoop range or mechanics.
We just have to throw some ISKies out the window by trying to make effective Domi's in PvP before CCP is gonna fix it. At least, I think that's what he said. Well I personally don't find sentries problematic at all in a small gang context, instead their immobile nature allows for many interesting tricks. I've never ran out of drones. However in those situations sentries are not subject to staggered bombers or fleet warps. Obviously the fixes that fleets need would help small gangers and PVErs as well, the 2500m scoop range is highly impractical. Just dropping them right after exiting warp will cause a Domi to drift outside their range, and orbiting them may also take you too far from one sentry. Well, CCP had a big turret update and fix, followed by missiles. We only have to wait, Drones have to come next (especially now that those filthy Amarrians are using them). Save the drones! |
Marxzo Andoun
EVE University Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:45:00 -
[2503] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
I have a small update for you: we are going to bump the Megathron CPU up by 30, to a total of 600.
By adding a low and also trying to coax people towards rails slightly, CPU would have been under a little too much pressure.
Huh, interesting. Coax us towards rails. I've never really considered it due to the terrible rep large rails have, but I may consider it again if its actually viable. I still have visions of the video where an iteron in tight orbit took out a rail Mega. *shudders
Also, thanks for the (brief) update. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
102
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 18:51:00 -
[2504] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
I have a small update for you: we are going to bump the Megathron CPU up by 30, to a total of 600.
By adding a low and also trying to coax people towards rails slightly, CPU would have been under a little too much pressure.
I know after a hundred pages this feels like a very small acknowledgment in the scheme of things, and we are certainly aware of that. A lot of the argument surrounding most of the battleship balance seems focused on whether or not these ships will actually perform in the roles they've been assigned to warrant their use. For that, we feel like we are at a point where we need to see how they do on tranquility. After release we will evaluate again, and if something isn't working out it will be addressed.
I will keep reading these threads in the mean time so don't hesitate to keep discussing the changes.
Thanks, o/ Rise please respond to this for the people who liked the original post of the shield mega. Why do you object to the 7-5-7 layout? as it is the Hype when dual rep fitted will be more mobile than the dual plated mega which is meant to be the attack battleship. You do realise you are the only one still spouting this shield tanked Megathron nonsense, right?
Seriously, give it up - the Megathron's pedigree is as an armour tanked, no-holes-barred, smash-them in the face blaster platform....
Edit: Jesus, you got me that worked up I barely noted the buff, Woohoo! CPU!
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:00:00 -
[2505] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:Roime wrote:Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race. Hope this helped you. Quote: Drone Masters
The Gallente Federation have taken drones - for the other empires something of an after-thought or secondary weapon system at best - and placed them at the heart of their ship design philosophy. The vast majority of Gallente ships have drone capability, often beyond that of comparable designs in the other empires, and the Federation has developed a large array of dedicated drone carriers that use these robotic gunships as their primary weapon system. While being known for their heavy use of drones, the Gallente have not neglected raw firepower and many of their designs are optimized for the blaster family of short-range, high-damage hybrid turrets. While the Gallente share hybrid turret technology with their Caldari State enemies, due to a shared history, their preference in defense is for strongly-armored designs. The Gallente approach to electronic warfare also differs notably from others and relies on dampening enemy sensors, reducing their effective range and ability to lock onto targets.
We can quote the main issues of this declaration of his philosophy: - "The vast majority of Gallente ships have drone capability": you put a ******* ****-TY flight of light drones IN A BS-SIZED SHIP! and you say they are at your heart!? I would like to see the legal narcotics that the Creo-Dron delegate had on him before deciding that. - "and many of their designs are optimized for the blaster family of short-range": and then you read CCP Rise for favoring railguns in the Gallente side. Absolutely weird. And you say it now, some days before the new expansion and the new changes go live and don't give advice in the first Dev Blogs? What happens for getting the blasters forgotten? What's the problem? Have you seen that the blasters are a BROKEN SYSTEM ITSELF EVEN AFTER "FIXING" IT!? - "their preference in defense is for strongly-armored designs": strongly? are you kidding me? Amarr is the strongly armor tanker, not Gallente. We have seen the situation for a old Vs. new Mega and both (and don't theorize with Gallente philoshopy, plating the mega is the proper fit right now if you armor-tank it) are paper-like tank with nano plating (http://imageshack.us/f/62/livemega.jpg/ and http://imageshack.us/f/209/newmega.jpg/) - "reducing their effective range and ability to lock onto targets.": i would try to be fair and correct with the implications of this statement, but it's hard to do it: you put in a race the most range-dependant gun. And don't want to read that minmatar pilots who whine about the range of the blasters 'cause then will challenge it with my pittyful PVP skills, as you can see my killboard 'cause this is not a coward alt like other in this thread with his NPC 11% corps in a Maelstrom vs. a Mega in his side and will see if they talk so much about the blaster range being OP -¼-¼. Retake the point, you put the most range-dependent gun (blasters) in the same race where his EW consists in broke the range for targeting of the enemy ship. So, you stay at optimal (in neutrons we can say 6km) in your "newly UBER-improved mega with his +7m/s speed" (I'm being minmatar, not my fault) with the EW and then YOU REALIZE THAT THE ENEMY SHIP CAN TARGET YOU! And If you try to get profit of your superior DPS over the paper, and don't stay at your optimal, you then have the second realization and see that YOU CAN'T with worse damage falloff than Minmatar (and don't mind with the range of amarr lasers). You can't also put more insane DPS as the Minmatar have no cap use for guns (and put two ENORMOUS XL-SHIELD BOOSTERS for tank) and better speed after plating the Mega. And then the nullified minds of Minmatar come here and say that blaster range is OP. As I have said, I will try to be correct but... ARE YOU disabled? There's only some statement that is good (and correct) to Gallente range philosophy: GATE-CAMPING. And that with insane DPS (1500+). And for that you use whatever you can use, but not specifically a Gallente Ship as it's plain stupid to train skills to have an static and "orbit the enemy at optimal" slow rock.
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
I have a small update for you: we are going to bump the Megathron CPU up by 30, to a total of 600.
By adding a low and also trying to coax people towards rails slightly, CPU would have been under a little too much pressure.
I know after a hundred pages this feels like a very small acknowledgment in the scheme of things, and we are certainly aware of that. A lot of the argument surrounding most of the battleship balance seems focused on whether or not these ships will actually perform in the roles they've been assigned to warrant their use. For that, we feel like we are at a point where we need to see how they do on tranquility. After release we will evaluate again, and if something isn't working out it will be addressed.
I will keep reading these threads in the mean time so don't hesitate to keep discussing the changes.
Thanks, o/
Oh! Really!? 30CPU to put what? An Energized Armor Layering Membrane? Even the EANM use 36CPU. And after putting railguns in a Mega, why I should fit that anomaly similar to a ship if I can fit a Rokh!? At least the Rokh have an EHP boost that will give more surveillance for solo-pvp in low-sec/null-sec, and a optimal bonus that flavors the blasters over the railguns, and that make it viable for a railgun sniper approach at massive fleets in 0.0. Explain to me: why I should fit a Mega if I have in a Rokh a better version of the Mega?
http://cheezburger.com/7470221568 http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37158832.jpg http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:28:00 -
[2506] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
I have a small update for you: we are going to bump the Megathron CPU up by 30, to a total of 600.
By adding a low and also trying to coax people towards rails slightly, CPU would have been under a little too much pressure.
I know after a hundred pages this feels like a very small acknowledgment in the scheme of things, and we are certainly aware of that. A lot of the argument surrounding most of the battleship balance seems focused on whether or not these ships will actually perform in the roles they've been assigned to warrant their use. For that, we feel like we are at a point where we need to see how they do on tranquility. After release we will evaluate again, and if something isn't working out it will be addressed.
I will keep reading these threads in the mean time so don't hesitate to keep discussing the changes.
Thanks, o/ Rise please respond to this for the people who liked the original post of the shield mega. Why do you object to the 7-5-7 layout? as it is the Hype when dual rep fitted will be more mobile than the dual plated mega which is meant to be the attack battleship. You do realise you are the only one still spouting this shield tanked Megathron nonsense, right? Seriously, give it up - the Megathron's pedigree is as an armour tanked, no-holes-barred, smash-them in the face blaster platform.... Edit: Jesus, you got me that worked up I barely noted the buff, Woohoo! CPU!
Well it hardly needs 8 lowslots to armour tank... it should follow the Thorax and allow for shield tank option its just stupid that an attack battleship can't actually shield tank as there whole point is mobility but a dual plated trimarked ships is slow as **** so its lost tank for no good reason really..... and T1 is meant to be versatile .. this change just reduces the use of the mega compared to the Hyperion. After all the navy version is going to be 8-4-8 so why can't the T1 version be 7-5-7??
CCP Rise you should have stuck with your gut instinct on this.. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 20:28:00 -
[2507] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: Oh! Really!? 30CPU to put what? An Energized Armor Layering Membrane? Even the EANM use 36CPU. And after putting railguns in a Mega, why I should fit that anomaly similar to a ship if I can fit a Rokh!? At least the Rokh have an EHP boost that will give more surveillance for solo-pvp in low-sec/null-sec, and a optimal bonus that flavors the blasters over the railguns, and that make it viable for a railgun sniper approach at massive fleets in 0.0. Explain to me: why I should fit a Mega if I have in a Rokh a better version of the Mega?
30 base CPU is 37.5 CPU with skills. That looks to be a ANP II upgraded to EANP II. |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:02:00 -
[2508] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: Oh! Really!? 30CPU to put what? An Energized Armor Layering Membrane? Even the EANM use 36CPU. And after putting railguns in a Mega, why I should fit that anomaly similar to a ship if I can fit a Rokh!? At least the Rokh have an EHP boost that will give more surveillance for solo-pvp in low-sec/null-sec, and a optimal bonus that flavors the blasters over the railguns, and that make it viable for a railgun sniper approach at massive fleets in 0.0. Explain to me: why I should fit a Mega if I have in a Rokh a better version of the Mega?
30 base CPU is 37.5 CPU with skills. That looks to be a ANP II upgraded to EANP II.
That doesn't matter. Even forgeting the EANM and putting EALM's you get better EHP (76581 against 75756 with a third EANM), and the EALM use 30 CPU and not 36. But we are talking about 75K. It's supossed that an attack battleship lose AT LEAST (don't know about Hyperion EHP) 25% of normal BS EHP (100K) being attack role? It's kind of annoying. And to those that will say loud "PLATE THAT MEGA FOR THE SAKE OF GOD!", I will say that even the Tempest have more speed that this one (revise the Minmatar BS thread)
[Megathron, PVP] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400 Stasis Webifier I Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Vespa EC-600 x5 Hobgoblin II x5 http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:09:00 -
[2509] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote: Oh! Really!? 30CPU to put what? An Energized Armor Layering Membrane? Even the EANM use 36CPU. And after putting railguns in a Mega, why I should fit that anomaly similar to a ship if I can fit a Rokh!? At least the Rokh have an EHP boost that will give more surveillance for solo-pvp in low-sec/null-sec, and a optimal bonus that flavors the blasters over the railguns, and that make it viable for a railgun sniper approach at massive fleets in 0.0. Explain to me: why I should fit a Mega if I have in a Rokh a better version of the Mega?
30 base CPU is 37.5 CPU with skills. That looks to be a ANP II upgraded to EANP II. That doesn't matter. Even forgeting the EANM and putting EALM's you get better EHP (76581 against 75756 with a third EANM), and the EALM use 30 CPU and not 36. But we are talking about 75K. It's supossed that an attack battleship lose AT LEAST (don't know about Hyperion EHP) 25% of normal BS EHP (100K) being attack role? It's kind of annoying. And to those that will say loud "PLATE THAT MEGA FOR THE SAKE OF GOD!", I will say that even the Tempest have more speed that this one (revise the Minmatar BS thread) [Megathron, PVP] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400 Stasis Webifier I Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Vespa EC-600 x5 Hobgoblin II x5
intriguing way of getting around plating it ofc those rigs don't help speed maybe damage rigs although i doubt that is possible to fit with the low pg and cpu they put on gallente ships but maybe this approach is one CCP should look at making viable if they won't give it another mid slot. But yes the Attack role is distinctly underwhelming thats for sure i was foolishly looking at the Machariel as a guide post as to what they would do with these in terms of mass at least if not agility....... :(.... i was very disappointed with their halfheartedness here. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
95
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:13:00 -
[2510] - Quote
Hyperions don't run based off of EHP, they run off of LARs. Current ones have taken well over 200k damage to kill on SiSi and have performed the solo role quite well.
In regards to that Mega Fit, put a 1600mm plate on it instead of the Mag Stab, and give it damage rigs. It gets WAY more speed from a MWD and it also gets WAY more EHP (100k EHP with over 60k in armor) Save the drones! |
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:21:00 -
[2511] - Quote
these EALM need much more HP bonus than 15%. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:25:00 -
[2512] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote: intriguing way of getting around plating it ofc those rigs don't help speed maybe damage rigs although i doubt that is possible to fit with the low pg and cpu they put on gallente ships but maybe this approach is one CCP should look at making viable if they won't give it another mid slot. But yes the Attack role is distinctly underwhelming thats for sure i was foolishly looking at the Machariel as a guide post as to what they would do with these in terms of mass at least if not agility....... :(.... i was very disappointed with their halfheartedness here.
Obviously I don't PVP, and when I do I lose. But using a Vindicator in the incursions I would probably query for a SP reimbursement and switch all the Gallente training (included Blasters, but not railgun as I find the Rokh ok) to Amarr, as the Nightmare would do a good job there (yes, with Gallente / Minma I can put the Machariel, and BTW i have large ac spec, but prefer to forget Gallente for ever). And BTW the only BS that I don't have is Amarr, as always have thought they were slow and poor-tracking guns for PVP purposes, but I see that at least will be more easy to maintain fire that Gallente. No matter the situation, if you are not part of a fleet and you don't have logi pilots sustaining you tank (and energy with T2 ammo), the Gallente is useless in solo. TBH, I only decided Gallente as main gun platform (had already Caldari for missions) only 'cause they were sthetically beautiful ships (yes, even the Domi). But it has come a moment where this platform, for PVP, is useless. I don't have problems in SiSi with the rest of races, but Gallente is the most tricky (and awful) one. And I think that I'm not the only that thinks this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3711
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:31:00 -
[2513] - Quote
Anyone have a mega fit that makes use of the utility high slot that is not a joke? If they are envisioning it to be a rail platform, what is a good is the utility high for snipping? Every people come up with for it has the utility high empty. That module slot would be FAR more useful as a medium slot. That or give it an 8th turret.
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:38:00 -
[2514] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Anyone have a mega fit that makes use of the utility high slot that is not a joke? If they are envisioning it to be a rail platform, what is a good is the utility high for snipping? Every people come up with for it has the utility high empty. That module slot would be FAR more useful as a medium slot. That or give it an 8th turret. The Megathron doesn't have a utility high anymore. Save the drones! |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
177
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:01:00 -
[2515] - Quote
Rise
is there any chance the Domi could have more cpu aswell as the mega the drone mods/rigs use up way too much cpu unless you plan on reducing cpu on all drone mods/rigs across the board which would be better for all droneboats certainly the smaller ones? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
902
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:00:00 -
[2516] - Quote
If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed. |
|
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:17:00 -
[2517] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed. The only thing you can't fit on the Odyssey Domi is 425 II's (4 of them) with a single DLA and a Medium RR (for Sentries). You can however fit 350 II's + tank and a Medium Cap Booster, exactly within it's CPU, it comes to 750/750 using a few Faction mods to lower CPU expense. Sure it'd be nice to fit (4) 425 II's and/or a Large Cap Booster but honestly the difference on a DRONE boat is negligible. And if you're fitting the Odyssey Domi for Missions and NOT using a DLA/RR with (4) Guns you're doing it wrong. The old way of (6) Blasters + tank or buffer still fits like it did before.
At most, it'd be nice to have 15 CPU more to fit a Large Cap Booster instead of a Medium. The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:48:00 -
[2518] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed.
How do you feel about 8-4-7 with 8 turrets and a dmg bonus instead of rof?
|
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 01:02:00 -
[2519] - Quote
Quote:How do you feel about 8-4-7 with 8 turrets and a dmg bonus instead of rof? How many different people have to explain that RoF is superior to the same value of Dmg increase. If you have +5% per LvL of RoF it's higher total DPS than +5% dmg per LvL. The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 02:24:00 -
[2520] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:Quote:How do you feel about 8-4-7 with 8 turrets and a dmg bonus instead of rof? How many different people have to explain that RoF is superior to the same value of Dmg increase. If you have +5% per LvL of RoF it's higher total DPS than +5% dmg per LvL.
Re-read my friend. 8 turrets with a 5% per level dmg bonus is 10 relative turrets at lvl 5, 7 turrets with a 5% rof bonus is about 9.3 relative turrets... |
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
593
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 03:55:00 -
[2521] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed.
7/6/6 mega pls |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:27:00 -
[2522] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed.
And while you look at the domi think of the targeting range too, a sniper without any range is kinda pointless |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:28:00 -
[2523] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed. To be honest, the Hyperion and Megathron feel like completely different ships now, both from their old versions and from each other. For the Hyperion this is a really good thing, for the Megathron it will hurt some of our hearts. It's not vastly different, it's just a bit better at what we remember it being good at with the 8th low (and compensated CPU now), but it just feels different with the RoF bonus. Our epeen has to deflate a bit when we see the volley damage numbers in our notification (though it is doing more damage per second which is what counts). The Gallente community is glad that you have seen the light on the 7/5/7 Mega and have chosen to leave the 7/4/8 Megathron intact.
As for the Dominix's CPU, while drone mods and rigs are quite heavy on CPU, the only time I ever have much of an issue fitting a good Dominix is when trying to combine Railguns with powerful sentry capabilities. Drone Link Augmentors take WAY more CPU than Railguns do and sentry damage + range rigs put a constraint on your available CPU. If you do change it, we don't need a drastic amount more than it currently has. Save the drones! |
Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:28:00 -
[2524] - Quote
Moretic wrote:CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed. And while you look at the domi think of the targeting/drone control range too, a sniper without any range is kinda pointless
Edit: gah, multipost :P sorry about that :P
but again, think about domi targeting/drone control range |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2871
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:49:00 -
[2525] - Quote
CCP Rise,
what about the drones? (See your OP).
I thought the original plan was to make Hype a working Hype (small gang), Mega an "attack battleship" (usage not specified, but low tank seems to the key feature) and Dominix a fleet BS. You acknowledged the issues with sentry drones, and that maybe there was something you could do about them. Issues with drone mechanics have been mentioned in earlier balancing dev blogs as well. So, what happened?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 07:00:00 -
[2526] - Quote
Quote:You acknowledged the issues with sentry drones, and that maybe there was something you could do about them. Issues with drone mechanics have been mentioned in earlier balancing dev blogs as well. So, what happened? They also said that a Drone revamp is in the works but no eta. My guess is it won't happen until late this year or next year as Tiericide (ships) is of a higher priority until all the ships are "balanced". The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 07:02:00 -
[2527] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:Quote:You acknowledged the issues with sentry drones, and that maybe there was something you could do about them. Issues with drone mechanics have been mentioned in earlier balancing dev blogs as well. So, what happened? They also said that a Drone revamp is in the works but no eta. My guess is it won't happen until late this year or next year as Tiericide (ships) is of a higher priority until all the ships are "balanced". And they've also said that they've taken the approach of "We'll make small changes to try and fix things that are broken a teeny bit now, so that we can focus on really fixing it later".
The Clone Cost thread and the X-L Turret rebalance thread both address that. "This is meant as the first increment on a more thorough iteration on the clone system." -CCP Rise
"We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended to help bring us a little bit closer to balance between the different dreadnoughts. ........ These changes are not expected to bring the class into perfect balance, but it should be a step in the right direction and be something we can build upon as we go forward." -CCP Fozzie Save the drones! |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 08:35:00 -
[2528] - Quote
He doesn't realize the anomaly that supose the Gallente philosophy with the actual state of things and even with this he comes back to this thread to say us that he doesn't like the idea of a 7/5/7 Mega, and without giving some minimum indication of where will head towards, aside that to say us that we better forge the blasters. Have you ever thought that you don't decide how the ships are fitted and that are the capsuleers that make the fittings? Have you ever thought why there's only one Gallente ship in the ranking of most used ships? Think:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
Talos... Talos... Large Hybrid... BC size... added speed... Large Hybrid... BC size... speed...
I hope you will understand it now. And in case that's you have even decided to make the Large Blaster Spec the most useless PVP skill in the game, excluding a ship that it's not sized for it, I will repeat you:
Clear decision http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 08:39:00 -
[2529] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:He doesn't realize the anomaly that supose the Gallente philosophy with the actual state of things and even with this he comes back to this thread to say us that he doesn't like the idea of a 7/5/7 Mega, and without giving some minimum indication of where will head towards, aside that to say us that we better forge the blasters. Have you ever thought that you don't decide how the ships are fitted and that are the capsuleers that make the fittings? Have you ever thought why there's only one Gallente ship in the ranking of most used ships? Think: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20Talos... Talos... Large Hybrid... BC size... added speed... Large Hybrid... BC size... speed... I hope you will understand it now. And in case that's you have even decided to make the Large Blaster Spec the most useless PVP skill in the game, excluding a ship that it's not sized for it, I will repeat you: Clear decision Your incessant ranting is really annoying. First off, he didn't say the Megathron is now a railgun ship. He said he was adding CPU to help entice people to using Railguns, as without the CPU buff the Sniperthron still wouldn't be making a comeback, due to difficult fitting.
Blasters AREN'T bad anymore, the problem you're talking about considering the Talos applies to all races and all ABCs. Their mobility and incredibly cheap cost tend to make them way more popular in numbers than Battleships. Cheaper to replace, easier to get, quicker to move, etc. Save the drones! |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 09:22:00 -
[2530] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: Your incessant ranting is really annoying. First off, he didn't say the Megathron is now a railgun ship. He said he was adding CPU to help entice people to using Railguns, as without the CPU buff the Sniperthron still wouldn't be making a comeback, due to difficult fitting.
Blasters AREN'T bad anymore, the problem you're talking about considering the Talos applies to all races and all ABCs. Their mobility and incredibly cheap cost tend to make them way more popular in numbers than Battleships. Cheaper to replace, easier to get, quicker to move, etc.
Don't sound silly and put me a viable railgun fit with that 30+ CPU buff. Even had problems to fit blasters and changing the mids-lows for fitting something that have opportunities, and the blasters are not so CPU dependant. And then they realize if has CPU issues and decide to add a 4% boost in a ship that had issues with blasters and you want the people fit with a weapon that use 11% more CPU (comparing Neutron Blaster Cannon with 425's) And about that blasters aren't bad, why do you think that the Talos is the less used ABC? I will say it in other words: from the Gallente is the best that this philosophy that CCP has implanted can create, but even in that state is the worst thing of all. And if you say "blaster skills of the capsuleers" I can say that the people are switching skill for these changes, mainly to Amarr, and more reasonable seeing the capacitor / PG changes to lasers. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
279
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 09:46:00 -
[2531] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:ExAstra wrote: Your incessant ranting is really annoying. First off, he didn't say the Megathron is now a railgun ship. He said he was adding CPU to help entice people to using Railguns, as without the CPU buff the Sniperthron still wouldn't be making a comeback, due to difficult fitting.
Blasters AREN'T bad anymore, the problem you're talking about considering the Talos applies to all races and all ABCs. Their mobility and incredibly cheap cost tend to make them way more popular in numbers than Battleships. Cheaper to replace, easier to get, quicker to move, etc.
Don't sound silly and put me a viable railgun fit with that 30+ CPU buff. Even had problems to fit blasters and changing the mids-lows for fitting something that have opportunities, and the blasters are not so CPU dependant. And then they realize if has CPU issues and decide to add a 4% boost in a ship that had issues with blasters and you want the people fit with a weapon that use 11% more CPU (comparing Neutron Blaster Cannon with 425's) And about that blasters aren't bad, why do you think that the Talos is the less used ABC? I will say it in other words: from the Gallente is the best that this philosophy that CCP has implanted can create, but even in that state is the worst thing of all. And if you say "blaster skills of the capsuleers" I can say that the people are switching skill for these changes, mainly to Amarr, and more reasonable seeing the capacitor / PG changes to lasers. With that CPU I have been able to put a full fitting in the 8 lows of the Mega, this is all. And was a blaster fitting -¼-¼
Stop complainign the tempest is basically inferior to your news toys in almsot every way and it got what buff? 7 ms and -0.0001 agility ( and that seemed much more like a joke than a fix).
Gallente players ned to stop whinnign , open their eyes and see that THEY HAVE THE BEST SHIPS NOW! BY FAR! |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2871
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 09:51:00 -
[2532] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: I'm not sure how much work it would be, but just giving Sentries a 7,500m scoop range couldn't be too hard to implement and see where it leads, right?
I'm afraid the "scoop drones" functionality might be nothing more than a wrapper for the normal loot mechanics, and tied to that range. At least that would explain why a simple range change hasn't been already done :)
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 09:53:00 -
[2533] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Stop complainign the tempest is basically inferior to your news toys in almsot every way and it got what buff? 7 ms and -0.0001 agility ( and that seemed much more like a joke than a fix).
Gallente players ned to stop whinnign , open their eyes and see that THEY HAVE THE BEST SHIPS NOW! BY FAR!
Hee, new apoc is contesting that gallente statement, from a scale of 3 apocs to large scale... Gallente look good, but tracking+range bonus for scorch is the real deal. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:04:00 -
[2534] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:ExAstra wrote: Your incessant ranting is really annoying. First off, he didn't say the Megathron is now a railgun ship. He said he was adding CPU to help entice people to using Railguns, as without the CPU buff the Sniperthron still wouldn't be making a comeback, due to difficult fitting.
Blasters AREN'T bad anymore, the problem you're talking about considering the Talos applies to all races and all ABCs. Their mobility and incredibly cheap cost tend to make them way more popular in numbers than Battleships. Cheaper to replace, easier to get, quicker to move, etc.
Don't sound silly and put me a viable railgun fit with that 30+ CPU buff. Even had problems to fit blasters and changing the mids-lows for fitting something that have opportunities, and the blasters are not so CPU dependant. And then they realize if has CPU issues and decide to add a 4% boost in a ship that had issues with blasters and you want the people fit with a weapon that use 11% more CPU (comparing Neutron Blaster Cannon with 425's) And about that blasters aren't bad, why do you think that the Talos is the less used ABC? I will say it in other words: from the Gallente is the best that this philosophy that CCP has implanted can create, but even in that state is the worst thing of all. And if you say "blaster skills of the capsuleers" I can say that the people are switching skill for these changes, mainly to Amarr, and more reasonable seeing the capacitor / PG changes to lasers. With that CPU I have been able to put a full fitting in the 8 lows of the Mega, this is all. And was a blaster fitting -¼-¼ You must have the worst fitting skills in the history of playing EVE because I fit a full rack of 425mm IIs, 100mn MWD II, 3 SeBo IIs, 4 Mag Stab IIs, 3 TE IIs, and a Damage Control on the new Megathron and it fit without a single problem.. And that's BEFORE the CPU buff hit TQ. Maybe you should quit whining and learn how to fit?
Since you wanted to SEE it...
You can plainly see that this is before the 30 CPU buff CCP Rise just announced and that fits perfectly fine. There is plenty of room for you to swap modules around as you like. Quit the whining already.
Kagura Nikon wrote: Stop complainign the tempest is basically inferior to your news toys in almsot every way and it got what buff? 7 ms and -0.0001 agility ( and that seemed much more like a joke than a fix).
Gallente players ned to stop whinnign , open their eyes and see that THEY HAVE THE BEST SHIPS NOW! BY FAR!
Yeah because the Typhoon is so awful. While I agree with you folk over there that the Tempest feels lacking and I don't understand why your attack battleships have more mass than the Apocalypse and Megathron, we don't have "The best ships". The Hyperion is certainly king of solo but it's still completely out of place in fleets. And the Dominix's bonus change is questionable still at this point (every other change it received was of course good) and honestly I'd say debate about the new Dominix bonus alone has been more than half of this entire thread. Also, the Tempest and Typhoon are still stupidly fast. 7/ms on a battleship is NOT nothing. The agility bonus was kind of lame though. Save the drones! |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:06:00 -
[2535] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Stop complainign the tempest is basically inferior to your news toys in almsot every way and it got what buff? 7 ms and -0.0001 agility ( and that seemed much more like a joke than a fix).
Gallente players ned to stop whinnign , open their eyes and see that THEY HAVE THE BEST SHIPS NOW! BY FAR!
Hee, new apoc is contesting that gallente statement, from a scale of 3 apocs to large scale... Gallente look good, but tracking+range bonus for scorch is the real deal. Tracking+Range bonus for CONFLAG could easily become a common thing, too. The new Apocalypse is looking delicious, as is the Armageddon (love/hate relationship there, don't ask) Save the drones! |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
150
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:14:00 -
[2536] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:I hope you will understand it now. And in case that's you have even decided to make the Large Blaster Spec the most useless PVP skill in the game, excluding a ship that it's not sized for it... Ok you really need to hush and take a little timeout in the corner for a bit. Contrary to popular belief, EveKill Top20 is not the defining factor of what is good and what isn't. Furthermore, you don't really seem to have much knowledge of how PvP works, what are good fits, and how viable ships would be. Let us refer back to a previous golden quote....
Phoenix Torp wrote:Obviously I don't PVP, and when I do I lose. So perhaps it might be best if you go and educate yourself a bit more in that field before offering up any more heated rhetoric and enraged rants? Just a suggestion.
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
177
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:18:00 -
[2537] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed.
That makes me sad.. i will cry later and will print a picture of your face and put it on my dartboard :P.. But whats wrong with a little overlap .. there roles are clear yet its the Hype that is more flexible and more mobile in the end... Did you read my post about the EALM's? .... i think that is a way of getting around this and keeping the megas mobility intact.. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2871
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:22:00 -
[2538] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Gallente players ned to stop whinnign , open their eyes and see that THEY HAVE THE BEST SHIPS NOW! BY FAR!
I think the only valid concern is the obvious lack of Gallente-based fleet doctrines (like that Top 20 rant ^), which CCP actually tried to address in this tiericide.
It's quite tricky situation actually, and Kagura is also right in a sense- Gal lineup does indeed include the strongest contenders for "best" small gang ships, and especially for true solo. (No such thing as best ship) Highest dps with best tracking, average (in some cases superior*) tank, great mobility all work in this area. I can't really take anyone who claims current iteration of blasters is bad seriously. Even railguns on Gallente ships work really well, that is if we forget that medium rails even exist (CCP knows this and they'll get fixed, hopefully other medium LR turrets as well).
Is it even possible to have large fleet and small gang ships, and is it necessary? I can't say. My main concern is designing ships for large fleets, acknowledging the inherent issues in the weapon system (sentries) and not addressing the issues. Luckily this is EVE, where not all features end up being used in the way the devs intended, and the drone optimal and tracking will be useful in other applications as well.
* Incursus, Proteus, new Hyperion
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:47:00 -
[2539] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: You must have the worst fitting skills in the history of playing EVE because I fit a full rack of 425mm IIs, 100mn MWD II, 3 SeBo IIs, 4 Mag Stab IIs, 3 TE IIs, and a Damage Control on the new Megathron and it fit without a single problem.. And that's BEFORE the CPU buff hit TQ. Maybe you should quit whining and learn how to fit?
Do you really see that fitting viable? If you are small-gang PVP you depend of the pointer, and with that poor-DPS and alpha you can't think you will pop the ship before he destroys the pointer. If you are large-gang blob in 0.0 the logis pilots will laugh at you when a counter-sniper fleet attacks your paper-plane sniper-BS (yes, your fleet isn't the only that use snipers). That's why Rokhs are so popular (and will keep even with the 4% nerf). If you are solo-PVP it's useless as you can't point the target. Now I repeat: do you see that fitting viable?
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Ok you really need to hush and take a little timeout in the corner for a bit. Contrary to popular belief, EveKill Top20 is not the defining factor of what is good and what isn't. Furthermore, you don't really seem to have much knowledge of how PvP works, what are good fits, and how viable ships would be. Let us refer back to a previous golden quote.... Phoenix Torp wrote:Obviously I don't PVP, and when I do I lose. So perhaps it might be best if you go and educate yourself a bit more in that field before offering up any more heated rhetoric and enraged rants? Just a suggestion.
Enlight me and say me what can be the clear indication of a ship use, you the expert... I'm so tired of people like you that says us what we MUST do for fittings, fittings that get destroyed afterwards, that I prefer to ignore you. At least that will keep using my time in more productive activities. Same that have done with that Minma whiner of Kagura Nikon. Good luck. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
335
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:55:00 -
[2540] - Quote
Roime wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: Gallente players ned to stop whinnign , open their eyes and see that THEY HAVE THE BEST SHIPS NOW! BY FAR!
I think the only valid concern is the obvious lack of Gallente-based fleet doctrines (like that Top 20 rant ^), which CCP actually tried to address in this tiericide. It's quite tricky situation actually, and Kagura is also right in a sense- Gal lineup does indeed include the strongest contenders for "best" small gang ships, and especially for true solo. (No such thing as best ship) Highest dps with best tracking, average (in some cases superior*) tank, great mobility all work in this area. I can't really take anyone who claims current iteration of blasters is bad seriously. Even railguns on Gallente ships work really well, that is if we forget that medium rails even exist (CCP knows this and they'll get fixed, hopefully other medium LR turrets as well). Is it even possible to have large fleet and small gang ships, and is it necessary? I can't say. My main concern is designing ships for large fleets, acknowledging the inherent issues in the weapon system (sentries) and not addressing the issues. Luckily this is EVE, where not all features end up being used in the way the devs intended, and the drone optimal and tracking will be useful in other applications as well. * Incursus, Proteus, new Hyperion The fleet doctrine problem is not something CCP can fix. They seem to not interfere with players by giving hints about this kind of things, probably to leave the players play with the sandbox.
But gallente do have real strengths, they are only not favored in the current meta. There is actually some gallente fleets I heard at smaller scales in fact.
The gallente problem is the lack of a real strong medium range solution (30 to 70km). This problem is largely due to railguns, yet I doubt a fleet doctrine is impossible to build without this capability. The meta seem to be evolving to farther ranges BTW, where gallente could theoreticaly do something if beams potential come back don't kill them.
|
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ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 10:59:00 -
[2541] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:ExAstra wrote: You must have the worst fitting skills in the history of playing EVE because I fit a full rack of 425mm IIs, 100mn MWD II, 3 SeBo IIs, 4 Mag Stab IIs, 3 TE IIs, and a Damage Control on the new Megathron and it fit without a single problem.. And that's BEFORE the CPU buff hit TQ. Maybe you should quit whining and learn how to fit?
Do you really see that fitting viable? If you are small-gang PVP you depend of the pointer, and with that poor-DPS and alpha you can't think you will pop the ship before he destroys the pointer. If you are large-gang blob in 0.0 the logis pilots will laugh at you when a counter-sniper fleet attacks your paper-plane sniper-BS (yes, your fleet isn't the only that use snipers). That's why Rokhs are so popular (and will keep even with the 4% nerf). If you are solo-PVP it's useless as you can't point the target. Now I repeat: do you see that fitting viable? Congratulations on not understanding the point I was trying to make. Easy solutions to your problem:
1) Remove one Mag Stab and fit one 1600mm Plate, install Trimark Rigs and Anti-Explosive Pump. Congratulations, now it has EHP. 2) Alternate SeBos (+scripts), Tracking Computers (+scripts), EANMs, and Tracking Enhancers as you see fit to meet your fleet's range, tank, and locking requirements.
The point is that all of this crap fits on it effortlessly, you just seem to not be able to understand that. I hope you realize that absolutely nobody in this thread (maybe even EVE itself) is agreeing with you? Save the drones! |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2871
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 11:03:00 -
[2542] - Quote
Medium, aka Garde range, which was the whole point of this Dominix version (some posters just pulled the sniper thing out of their butts and it stuck). It would have Scorch-level dps but even better tracking, and pretty much the only thing preventing "Domination" are the sentry mechanics.
Not saying that people couldn't overcome the issues.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 13:35:00 -
[2543] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:ExAstra wrote: You must have the worst fitting skills in the history of playing EVE because I fit a full rack of 425mm IIs, 100mn MWD II, 3 SeBo IIs, 4 Mag Stab IIs, 3 TE IIs, and a Damage Control on the new Megathron and it fit without a single problem.. And that's BEFORE the CPU buff hit TQ. Maybe you should quit whining and learn how to fit?
Do you really see that fitting viable? If you are small-gang PVP you depend of the pointer, and with that poor-DPS and alpha you can't think you will pop the ship before he destroys the pointer. If you are large-gang blob in 0.0 the logis pilots will laugh at you when a counter-sniper fleet attacks your paper-plane sniper-BS (yes, your fleet isn't the only that use snipers). That's why Rokhs are so popular (and will keep even with the 4% nerf). If you are solo-PVP it's useless as you can't point the target. Now I repeat: do you see that fitting viable? Congratulations on not understanding the point I was trying to make. Easy solutions to your problem: 1) Remove one Mag Stab and fit one 1600mm Plate (3 CPU more out of the 60 leftover, oh the AGONY of such tight fitting!!!!!!!), install Trimark Rigs and Anti-Explosive Pump. Congratulations, now it has EHP. 2) Alternate SeBos (+scripts), Tracking Computers (+scripts), EANMs, and Tracking Enhancers as you see fit to meet your fleet's range, tank, and locking requirements. The point is that all of this crap fits on it effortlessly ( BEFORE the buff), you just seem to not be able to understand that. I hope you realize that absolutely nobody in this thread (maybe even EVE itself) is agreeing with you? Edit: You can freaking dual prop the thing with Rails after the buff for crying out loud.
Congratulations: you have fitted the light-CPU modules. The only module not included in that statement are those MFS's that, in your unlimited intelligence, has said to replace for a 1600mm. In my country we say that you have fitted that ship "with tweezers". You put something more and it falls. Try to put a tank to that thing:
[Megathron, Railguns] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot]
Don't try to put other thing in the mids as the SeBo's only use 10CPU (unless you switch that TE for a Co-Processor). And now try to think in "Rokh mode":
[Rokh, Railguns] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot]
Now compare: - Mega: 633DPS, 82620EHP, 1081m/s - Rokh: 547DPS, 117511EHP, 783m/s
The Rokh lose 14% of DPS to win 42% of EHP. And have better range, so when the MWD-ed Mega get his optimal the Rokh is wrecking some time ago. The Rokh even can drop the EM hardener and put a named Large SB, to have 104703 EHP, in the case he finds some ship with better DPS than it (and being hybrids this is only matter for the Gallente BS's). Now, I re-ask you: is that Mega viable? http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 13:47:00 -
[2544] - Quote
You use 3x sentry drones for the megathron in that comparison? If not, you probably should. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2872
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 13:57:00 -
[2545] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Don't try to put other thing in the mids as the SeBo's only use 10CPU (unless you switch that TE for a Co-Processor). And now try to think in "Rokh mode":
[Rokh, Railguns] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot]
- Rokh: 547DPS, 117511EHP, 783m/s
[Megathron, Buffer rails] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Internal Force Field Array I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactive Armor Hardener
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script Sensor Booster II
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
580 dps, 119K EHP with RAH @ default 15%
More dps, more tank, more range, better tracking, 200m/s and 2 seconds faster. Smaller sig. Shoots a volley before Rokh has even locked it.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 14:41:00 -
[2546] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote: Congratulations: you have fitted the light-CPU modules. The only module not included in that statement are those MFS's that, in your unlimited intelligence, has said to replace for a 1600mm. In my country we say that you have fitted that ship "with tweezers". You put something more and it falls. Try to put a tank to that thing:
*snip*
The Rokh lose 14% of DPS to win 42% of EHP. And have better range, so when the MWD-ed Mega get his optimal the Rokh is wrecking some time ago. The Rokh even can drop the EM hardener and put a named Large SB, to have 104703 EHP, in the case he finds some ship with better DPS than it (and being hybrids this is only matter for the Gallente BS's). Now, I re-ask you: is that Mega viable?
First, you've already admitted that you don't PvP and you're terrible at it, so why are you pretending to know anything about it? Secondly, the fourth magnetic field stabilizer really does not add much DPS, it just takes up a lot of CPU, which is the whole point. And as I already said, you can dual prop the Mega after the CPU buff (WITH RAILS - for whatever reason you would want to do that), and dual propping sorta kinda takes a lot of CPU you know (125 for MWD/AB easy, 152 for MWD/MJD harder) and still fits two 1600s, 3 mag stabs, a DCU II, EANM II, TE II, and with plenty of powergrid for some range rigs (You completely wasted the rigs on your Mega by giving it Burst and Collision with 3 mag stabs, it's funny)
Also, your argument flew out the window when you put a reactor control unit on the Rokh. The two fits don't even compare. You have a Megathron with three Targeting range SeBos engaging at 41km with Antimatter (lul guyz I can snip?) and a Rokh engaging at 54km. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to show here, but I went ahead and made your fits better based off of your "let's snipe at close range" idea of sniping and made the Megathron more comparable to the Rokh which you are apparently incapable of doing:
[Megathron, MegaWhat?]
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
vs.
[Rokh, Rokh fit]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Comparison with bold showing that it beats the other ship in that aspect: Megathron: 634.5 DPS, 50.8km optimal range, .019 tracking, 400 sig, 388 scan res (3.3s cruiser lock), 968 m/s, 87.5k EHP (lower after Odyssey due to attack role) Rokh: 517 DPS, 62.1km optimal range, .0126 tracking, 603 sig, 150 scan res (8.6s cruiser lock), 783 m/s, 128k EHP (somewhat lower after Odyssey due to losing 5% resists across the board)
The Megathron does better DPS with significantly faster locking speed, and goes 200 m/s faster, at the cost of slightly reduced range and it doesn't get the same tank. Although I don't know where in the galaxy you intend on using these for sniping, but hey. I gave you what you wanted.
Edit: Roime you beat me to it. Save the drones! |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 15:25:00 -
[2547] - Quote
Some considerations:
- I have not talked about sniping fittings. I was talking about making a VIABLE RAILGUN fitting. The word "sniping" has appeared in your statement by some unknown reason, I suppose that motivated by the fact that you were the man who put 3 SeBo's in that Mega. The optimal range script were by default in EFT and have not dropped or changed them as was finding them useless with antimatter, but didn't know what other thing to put. That's all. - The decision to put those hybrid rigs and not buffer (either EM or trimark) it's to not penalty the new speed of the Mega. You can understand it or not, but that's a question of personal matter, not of wasting rig spaces, by the same reason we are putting EANM, 1600mm's, etc... that doesn't lower the speed before the MWD. - Third, the 3 SeBo's (no matter what script had put but for that we can agree that Res Scan scripts) is to SHOW YOU that there's no PLENTY SPACE as you say to fit things.
BTW, Roime has put a fitting that actually is better that mine with nameds, a nano an a RAH, OFC. And that actually is better than the Rokh. But that only states my affirmation that 30+ CPU is kind of ridiculous, as only a fitting with nameds has improved that thing overall. Do you have enough or will we keep this discussion about that "PLENTY" space to put things? http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 16:02:00 -
[2548] - Quote
Phoenix Torp wrote:Some considerations: - I have not talked about sniping fittings. I was talking about making a VIABLE RAILGUN fitting. The word "sniping" has appeared in your statement by some unknown reason, I suppose that motivated by the fact that you were the man who put 3 SeBo's in that Mega. The optimal range script were by default in EFT and have not dropped or changed them as was finding them useless with antimatter, but didn't know what other thing to put. That's all. - The decision to put those hybrid rigs and not buffer (either EM or trimark) it's to not penalty the new speed of the Mega. You can understand it or not, but that's a question of personal matter, not of wasting rig spaces, by the same reason we are putting EANM, 1600mm's, etc... that doesn't lower the speed before the MWD. - Third, the 3 SeBo's (no matter what script had put but for that we can agree that Res Scan scripts) is to SHOW YOU that there's no PLENTY SPACE as you say to fit things. BTW, Roime has put a fitting that actually is better that mine with nameds, a nano an a RAH, OFC. And that actually is better than the Rokh. But that only states my affirmation that 30+ CPU is kind of ridiculous, as only a fitting with nameds has improved that thing overall. Do you have enough or will we keep this discussion about that "PLENTY" space to put things? 1) There is plenty of room to make a viable Railgun fitting 2) You forewent EHP, which you were so incredibly concerned about (temporarily), for ~30 DPS in those rigs. Because of stacking penalties, the rigs were pretty wasteful. And my Megathron was still going faster than your "so much better" Rokh, sooooooo yeah. And speed isn't nearly as important on the railgun side as it is on the Blaster side. 3) See point 1. 4) Using a Meta 4 MWD doesn't change anything but powergrid, which the Megathron actually has plenty of.
Actually, here, let me give you math, because Roime's fit can actually go full on T2 (and swap the ANP for another EANM:
787.5 - (55.5 * 7) - (33 * 2) - (35 *2) - (30 * 3) - 75 - 10 - (36 *2) - 24 = 1 CPU leftover Total CPU - Guns - 1600mm IIs - T2 TCs - Mag Stab IIs and DC II - MWD II - SeBo II - EANM IIs - Reactive Hardener
The only thing it fits that isn't T2 is a Reactive Armor Hardener, which doesn't have a T2 variant yet. And you could easily drop one TC to Meta 4 to pick up the extra CPU that would be needed for a T2 version if there is ever one introduced.
And in case you didn't notice, while complaining about me putting armor rigs on my 'Thron, then touting about how Roime's "managed to be better", he also put armor rigs on his, you must have missed that. And I will not disagree that his looks slightly more attractive than mine in certain areas. Mine had 50 more DPS in gank than his at a big cost in tank, and 110 more DPS in gank than yours (and mine nearly equaled yours in EHP ) Save the drones! |
Akriel Tanna
Havamalian Angels
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 21:12:00 -
[2549] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:[quote=ExAstra] *snip*
(...) Actually, here, let me give you math, because Roime's fit can actually go full on T2 (and swap the ANP for another EANM): 787.5 - (55.5 * 7) - (33 * 2) - (35 *2) - (30 * 3) - 75 - 10 - (36 *2) - 24 = 1 CPU leftover Total CPU - Guns - 1600mm IIs - T2 TCs - Mag Stab IIs and DC II - MWD II - SeBo II - EANM IIs - Reactive Hardener The only thing it fits that isn't T2 is a Reactive Armor Hardener, which doesn't have a T2 variant yet. And you could easily drop one TC to Meta 4 to pick up the extra CPU that would be needed for a T2 version if there is ever one introduced. And in case you didn't notice, while complaining about me putting armor rigs on my 'Thron, then touting about how Roime's "managed to be better", he also put armor rigs on his, you must have missed that. And I will not disagree that his looks slightly more attractive than mine in certain areas. Mine had 50 more DPS in gank than his at a big cost in tank, and 110 more DPS in gank than yours (and mine beat yours in EHP )
Seriously? 787.5 CPU? Sounds like someone's playing fitting games with their implants plugged and bluffing at Phoenix that you can put everything and their cousins in the new Megathron and have room for more. Heh
Mega's CPU 600 + 1.25 (Electronics 5) = 750
750 != 787.5
Aky
|
sten mattson
1st Praetorian Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 06:44:00 -
[2550] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:If I'm honest, I really don't like the idea of the 7/5/7 Mega at this point. Originally, I thought it could be really fun to have the Mega become much more flexible and let it be the go-to small gang gun ship for Gallente. I think for that to work though, the Hyp would have had to become the fleet-focused gun ship so that there wasn't a lot of blurring between them. Even with the way it ended up working out, I still don't feel totally comfortable with the overlap between them, and if they were both 7/5/7 it would be MUCH worse.
Hope you can find a way to love one of them anyway =p
As for the Dominix CPU, I'll have a look at it when I'm back in the office next week, but I doubt it will get changed.
funny you worry about overlap with slot layout on gallente ships, when all amarr ships cruisers and battleships have the exact same slot layout
5/3/6 for turret cruisers (faction has 5/3/7) 8/4/7 for turret battleships (faction has 8/4/8) IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |
|
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 10:25:00 -
[2551] - Quote
Roime wrote:Phoenix Torp wrote:
Don't try to put other thing in the mids as the SeBo's only use 10CPU (unless you switch that TE for a Co-Processor). And now try to think in "Rokh mode":
[Rokh, Railguns] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot]
- Rokh: 547DPS, 117511EHP, 783m/s
[Megathron, Buffer rails] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Internal Force Field Array I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactive Armor Hardener Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script Sensor Booster II 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I 580 dps, 119K EHP with RAH @ default 15% More dps, more tank, more range, better tracking, 200m/s and 2 seconds faster. Smaller sig. Shoots a volley before Rokh has even locked it.
You forgot to mention that shieldtanking is incredibly more desired compared to armortanking for most fleets, as your reps land before the ship got dps'ed into the ground. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 12:55:00 -
[2552] - Quote
Akriel Tanna wrote: Seriously? 787.5 CPU? Sounds like someone's playing fitting games with their implants plugged and bluffing at Phoenix that you can put everything and their cousins in the new Megathron and have room for more. Heh
Mega's CPU 600 * 1.25 (Electronics 5) = 750
750 != 787.5
Aky
I'm just going to take a moment to recognize that my facepalm did indeed go right through my face and out the other side just now. I hopped on SiSi to check and sure enough, I have a single CPU implant. Completely forgot that I got podded last weekend on TQ and not SiSi which I hadn't thought about because I've spent a lot more time on SiSi with the battleships.
So, my apologies. I still think Torp is whining too much and I still feel the Megathron has a good amount of CPU at 750, though it is indeed a lot less than I tricked myself into believing. 600 base CPU is what most of us were after for it in the first place. Save the drones! |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 15:41:00 -
[2553] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: I'm just going to take a moment to recognize that my facepalm did indeed go right through my face and out the other side just now. I hopped on SiSi to check and sure enough, I have a single CPU implant. Completely forgot that I got podded last weekend on TQ and not SiSi which I hadn't thought about because I've spent a lot more time on SiSi with the battleships.
So, my apologies. I still think Torp is whining too much and I still feel the Megathron has a good amount of CPU at 750, though it is indeed a lot less than I tricked myself into believing. 600 base CPU is what most of us were after for it in the first place.
Actually, I think that Roime's fitting is viable comparing it with that Rokh. But still I think that lacks CPU. Making some changes to Roime's fitting (trimarks, you know):
[Megathron, Railguns] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II Reactive Armor Hardener Internal Force Field Array I
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Optical Tracking Computer I, Tracking Speed Script Optical Tracking Computer I, Tracking Speed Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I [empty rig slot]
Garde II x3
That SeBo, with Antimatter, it's useless. Even with that ScanRes script. Would be different if i fit a sniper setup as that distance it's something like "never-end-locking-target", but with AM is useless. The fact is, that EVEN WITH NAMED MODULES, you can't put a 3rd TC, that indeed would be more profitable to get profit of the Mega tracking bonus (and the fact why removing those rigs that slow up your ship you get profit of your superior tracking against other BS's). So, overall, you can't say that has enough CPU. And removing that RAH to put a co-processor his EHP would drop from 98K to 90K. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:00:00 -
[2554] - Quote
I'm really not quite sure why this thread is still going...
Tthe Hyperion and Megathron are now in a superb place, particularly now with the extra CPU on the Megathron which just means I'm more in love with it than ever over the last 9 years. The Hyperion is incredibly versatile, dream to fit, and you can ignore the rep bonus completely and still have a superb platform for fleets. The Dominix is looking pretty sweet too, granted drones need an overhaul, but all in good time.
Oh and to top it off, they aren't breaking the Navy versions - they are getting better still.
Mission accomplished.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Akriel Tanna
Havamalian Angels
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:17:00 -
[2555] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: I'm just going to take a moment to recognize that my facepalm did indeed go right through my face and out the other side just now. I hopped on SiSi to check and sure enough, I have a single CPU implant. Completely forgot that I got podded last weekend on TQ and not SiSi which I hadn't thought about because I've spent a lot more time on SiSi with the battleships.
So, my apologies. I still think Torp is whining too much and I still feel the Megathron has a good amount of CPU at 750, though it is indeed a lot less than I tricked myself into believing. 600 base CPU is what most of us were after for it in the first place.
Hehehehe.
Don't worry. No one's perfect, and I think the Mega looks nice. However, I'm somewhat worried on what kind of role weaker weapons within the same size would fulfill other than being fitted into tankier versions of the same ship.
I mean, why would anyone would fit in Electron Blaster Cannons, for example? What's the advantage of those weapons other than lower fitting requirements, larger ammo capacity, lower capacitor use, rate of fire, tracking speed and heat damage? The lower damage, optimal range, falloff are paid off by the benefits?
I ask that cause it seems like everybody wants to always fit the larger weapons and I think that maybe a weapon tiercide or something might bring some flavour to those turrets.
Aky |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:40:00 -
[2556] - Quote
Akriel Tanna wrote:ExAstra wrote: I'm just going to take a moment to recognize that my facepalm did indeed go right through my face and out the other side just now. I hopped on SiSi to check and sure enough, I have a single CPU implant. Completely forgot that I got podded last weekend on TQ and not SiSi which I hadn't thought about because I've spent a lot more time on SiSi with the battleships.
So, my apologies. I still think Torp is whining too much and I still feel the Megathron has a good amount of CPU at 750, though it is indeed a lot less than I tricked myself into believing. 600 base CPU is what most of us were after for it in the first place.
Hehehehe. Don't worry. No one's perfect, and I think the Mega looks nice. However, I'm somewhat worried on what kind of role weaker weapons within the same size would fulfill other than being fitted into tankier versions of the same ship. I mean, why would anyone would fit in Electron Blaster Cannons, for example? What's the advantage of those weapons other than lower fitting requirements, larger ammo capacity, lower capacitor use, rate of fire, tracking speed and heat damage? The lower damage, optimal range, falloff are paid off by the benefits? I ask that cause it seems like everybody wants to always fit the larger weapons and I think that maybe a weapon tiercide or something might bring some flavour to those turrets. Aky
Have bolded the main reason why to put a lower version of a weapon given. The problem of this situation is that now, in the current state to promote the group-activities in all the areas of the game, CCP would persuade to change a solo-Megathron with 350's to hit faster frigs to change to a 2-gang with one fast frig that have point AND A WEB and then the Mega with 425's. The only reason you would put 350's in a solo-PVP scenario is in a low-sec area where you know there are, in normal situations, smaller and faster ships. But we are covering the performance of BS's with ships of the same size. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2884
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 00:27:00 -
[2557] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:
You forgot to mention that shieldtanking is incredibly more desired compared to armortanking for most fleets, as your reps land before the ship got dps'ed into the ground.
Didn't really forget, but that was beyond the scope, I just made a fit to compete with the Rokh fit posted. I'm not even claiming it's a good fleet fit, since I know trivially little of blob warfare and not really interested enough in it to check out real world Rokh fits from killboards and try to match those. The new Mega does look more viable for fleets on a theorycrafting level than the current TQ version, that's all.
I'm not sold on the attack BS concept on a small gang level (or what it even means), but that's not really a huge issue to me because of Hyperion.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 08:01:00 -
[2558] - Quote
The problem as it seems to me, for all BS, is that you're trying to create something with attack battleships that just doesn't work. Faster ships are the smaller ships, as the ships gain in size they become slower, more tanked and able to apply better damage to longer ranges.
So an attempt to create these divisions within battleships, without allowing the battleships to step on the toes of their smaller cousins, becomes essentially futile outside of a bs vs bs scenario. And this scenario is so rare as to be discounted at this point in eve's evolution.
When your potential performance envelope constantly shrinks you reach the current point where the real differences become moot next to the % differences. A speed of 900m/s vs 1000m/s is redundant, for example, when all of the smaller ships likely to be present in even a small fight will outpace you massively. BC and below will all be able to catch and tackle you. Tackle then removes your speed advantage (something that isn't true in real life). Yet you remain unable to apply your damage realistically in a great number of cases and lose what should be your biggest advantage. Even drones are largely ineffective against the new rebalanced t1 frigates and unlikely to destroy the tackler fast enough for an escape.
All other aspects scale up with ship size giving an unlimited space to progress into, speed is the one exception. It's a very poor balancing mechanic at this ship level, I believe, despite being the most powerful attribute at smaller ship classes. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
310
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:18:00 -
[2559] - Quote
The only attack Battleship that will be able to really work as attack Woudl be somethign like a typhoon with AB (YES AB ) to engage dreads at closer range avoiding bet blapped. But htat is a quite limited role.. and stillt he ship woudl not be good enough at doing that.
IF all the attack battleships were as much improved from the normal ones mobility wise as the attack BC are from their combat cousins, then we coudl have something. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:02:00 -
[2560] - Quote
Akriel Tanna wrote:ExAstra wrote: I'm just going to take a moment to recognize that my facepalm did indeed go right through my face and out the other side just now. I hopped on SiSi to check and sure enough, I have a single CPU implant. Completely forgot that I got podded last weekend on TQ and not SiSi which I hadn't thought about because I've spent a lot more time on SiSi with the battleships.
So, my apologies. I still think Torp is whining too much and I still feel the Megathron has a good amount of CPU at 750, though it is indeed a lot less than I tricked myself into believing. 600 base CPU is what most of us were after for it in the first place.
Hehehehe. Don't worry. No one's perfect, and I think the Mega looks nice. However, I'm somewhat worried on what kind of role weaker weapons within the same size would fulfill other than being fitted into tankier versions of the same ship. I mean, why would anyone would fit in Electron Blaster Cannons, for example? What's the advantage of those weapons other than lower fitting requirements, larger ammo capacity, lower capacitor use, rate of fire, tracking speed and heat damage? The lower damage, optimal range, falloff are paid off by the benefits? I ask that cause it seems like everybody wants to always fit the larger weapons and I think that maybe a weapon tiercide or something might bring some flavour to those turrets. Aky "What's the advantage other than (makes a relatively long list of advantages)"
Well, basically everything you mentioned. DPS isn't the end all be all number, luckily. The biggest reasons people will fit smaller guns are increased tracking speed and decreased fitting. It allows them to keep the rest of their ship's fitting at a high point at the cost of some on paper DPS. Sometimes, however, in practice the applied DPS will be nearly the same as with the next size up guns, simply because while Neutron Blaster Cannons offer the highest amount of DPS in a number, Ion Blaster Cannons are less likely to make your effective DPS "0" by missing. And even moreso for Electrons.
This advantage holds more value on gun wielding battleships, as the higher tracking they have, the better capabilities they have to fend off enemy frigates or speed/sig tanking cruisers. As with anything else in EVE, it's hard for someone to really tell you what "the best" way to fit your ship is. There are good, solid, and proved ways. But everyone encounters different experiences, etc. Granted, while "the best" ships and fits are really obscure and in large part situational and opinionated, there are indeed bad fits. Hah.
A weapon tiercide would be kind of intersting. We all know it'd be good for the medium class long range turrets, boy are they awful. However, most of the time people just fit the biggest guns because it's a standard practice, and provided you're not missing they do indeed offer the greatest DPS, and by a rather enticing amount usually. And DPS, while not the end all be all, is far from unimportant.
- - - In the interest of math **** I did a little bit of number crunching on the attack vs combat lineups (at least for Gallente) for some comparability, assuming Navigation V.
Frigate Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Atron: 525m/s Incursus: 425m/s Micro-Warp Maximum Velocity Atron: 3,700m/s Incursus: 3,033m/s Afterburning Maximum Velocity Atron: 1,382m/s Incursus: 1,129m/s
Atron has a 23.5% higher maximum velocity unboosted, 21.99% higher MWD boosted, and 22.4% AB boosted. So on average it's 22.63% faster than an Incursus.
Cruiser Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Thorax: 300m/s Vexor: 256m/s Micro-Warp Maximum Velocity Thorax: 2,028m/s Vexor: 1,729m/s Afterburning Maximum Velocity Thorax: 766m/s Vexor: 654m/s
On the cruisers, the Thorax comes ahead with increases of 17.18% base, 17.29% MWD, and 17.12% AB for an average 17.19% increase in velocity. Which is 5.44% lower than on the frigate level.
Battleship Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Hyperion: 143.75m/s Megathron: 152.5m/s
That's a 6% increase in speed on the Megathron versus the Hyperion. I don't think I even have to pull out the MWD and AB velocities to get the point across that it's hard to compare the "Attack Battleship/Combat Battleship" speeds to the Cruiser levels, let alone frigates.
Granted, both the Hyperion and the Megathron value their speeds, we can't just nerf the Hyperion's speed to make the Megathron's feel higher. At the same time, we can't increase the Megathron's speed without completely infringing on Minmatar design philosophy, making their battleships feel slow. And if we had to increase the Minmatar BS speeds, then all of a sudden the Mach would be slow. When we increase the Mach's speed, it'll be lapping Thoraxes. And when a Macharial is literally running circles around Thoraxes, we have a problem.
I don't really have any solution for the problem than to call the "attack" role for Battleships a relatively meaningless label. On the bright side, Gallente have a relatively decent option for using Railguns for the first time since the Sniperthron's glory days of old, hah. While it may not be the best choice it's not a bad one, and may work its way into fleets in a less embarrassing manner than "Well I didn't want to/can't fly a Rokh". It also gives Gallente specialized pilots a good platform for whatever they want rails for. Heck even the Hyperion can fit railguns now (kinda), dang. Save the drones! |
|
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:25:00 -
[2561] - Quote
For the Megathron:
with a reduction to armor hp and no active local rep bonus, we really need a 5th mid slot plz, I want to choice what to tank it as,
Armor Tank
Shield Tank
and or favourite
Hull Tank CCP thx for listening: Super Gates-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2291999
Eve rule no.1: The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans. |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
454
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 17:44:00 -
[2562] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: "What's the advantage other than (makes a relatively long list of advantages)"
Well, basically everything you mentioned. DPS isn't the end all be all number, luckily. The biggest reasons people will fit smaller guns are increased tracking speed and decreased fitting. It allows them to keep the rest of their ship's fitting at a high point at the cost of some on paper DPS. Sometimes, however, in practice the applied DPS will be nearly the same as with the next size up guns, simply because while Neutron Blaster Cannons offer the highest amount of DPS in a number, Ion Blaster Cannons are less likely to make your effective DPS "0" by missing. And even moreso for Electrons.
This advantage holds more value on gun wielding battleships, as the higher tracking they have, the better capabilities they have to fend off enemy frigates or speed/sig tanking cruisers. As with anything else in EVE, it's hard for someone to really tell you what "the best" way to fit your ship is. There are good, solid, and proved ways. But everyone encounters different experiences, etc. Granted, while "the best" ships and fits are really obscure and in large part situational and opinionated, there are indeed bad fits. Hah.
A weapon tiercide would be kind of intersting. We all know it'd be good for the medium class long range turrets, boy are they awful. However, most of the time people just fit the biggest guns because it's a standard practice, and provided you're not missing they do indeed offer the greatest DPS, and by a rather enticing amount usually. And DPS, while not the end all be all, is far from unimportant.
- - - In the interest of math **** I did a little bit of number crunching on the attack vs combat lineups (at least for Gallente) for some comparability, assuming Navigation V.
Frigate Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Atron: 525m/s Incursus: 425m/s Micro-Warp Maximum Velocity Atron: 3,700m/s Incursus: 3,033m/s Afterburning Maximum Velocity Atron: 1,382m/s Incursus: 1,129m/s
Atron has a 23.5% higher maximum velocity unboosted, 21.99% higher MWD boosted, and 22.4% AB boosted. So on average it's 22.63% faster than an Incursus.
Cruiser Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Thorax: 300m/s Vexor: 256m/s Micro-Warp Maximum Velocity Thorax: 2,028m/s Vexor: 1,729m/s Afterburning Maximum Velocity Thorax: 766m/s Vexor: 654m/s
On the cruisers, the Thorax comes ahead with increases of 17.18% base, 17.29% MWD, and 17.12% AB for an average 17.19% increase in velocity. Which is 5.44% lower than on the frigate level.
Battleship Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Hyperion: 143.75m/s Megathron: 152.5m/s
That's a 6% increase in speed on the Megathron versus the Hyperion. I don't think I even have to pull out the MWD and AB velocities to get the point across that it's hard to compare the "Attack Battleship/Combat Battleship" speeds to the Cruiser levels, let alone frigates.
Granted, both the Hyperion and the Megathron value their speeds, we can't just nerf the Hyperion's speed to make the Megathron's feel higher. At the same time, we can't increase the Megathron's speed without completely infringing on Minmatar design philosophy, making their battleships feel slow. And if we had to increase the Minmatar BS speeds, then all of a sudden the Mach would be slow. When we increase the Mach's speed, it'll be lapping Thoraxes. And when a Macharial is literally running circles around Thoraxes, we have a problem.
I don't really have any solution for the problem than to call the "attack" role for Battleships a relatively meaningless label. On the bright side, Gallente have a relatively decent option for using Railguns for the first time since the Sniperthron's glory days of old, hah. While it may not be the best choice it's not a bad one, and may work its way into fleets in a less embarrassing manner than "Well I didn't want to/can't fly a Rokh". It also gives Gallente specialized pilots a good platform for whatever they want rails for. Heck even the Hyperion can fit railguns now (kinda), dang.
This is a very very good post and highlights the "fact" that the attack role does not really fit into the battleship lineup at all.
+1 for sure
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 18:01:00 -
[2563] - Quote
interesting post ^^^
But still some effort should be put in the increase the speed of attack battleships but its not just speed bonus they get -lower sig radius -higher agility -higher speed -lower mass
so the attack role is a little more than one dimensional.
Also the Mach is probably a little OP in terms of speed and agility with all its 7 lows to add nanos... Part of the problem with the Hyperion vs Megathron comparison is that .. -active tank has no speed penalties anymore -plates/trimarks nerf speed and agility.
Which kinda highlights that the attack role suits shield tankers more 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
104
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 18:57:00 -
[2564] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:interesting post ^^^
But still some effort should be put in the increase the speed of attack battleships but its not just speed bonus they get -lower sig radius -higher agility -higher speed -lower mass
so the attack role is a little more than one dimensional.
Also the Mach is probably a little OP in terms of speed and agility with all its 7 lows to add nanos... Part of the problem with the Hyperion vs Megathron comparison is that .. -active tank has no speed penalties anymore -plates/trimarks nerf speed and agility.
Which kinda highlights that the attack role suits shield tankers more Actually, I think it highlights two things that are in contrast to what you said:
1) The Hyperion should be the Gallente Attack Battleship 2) Armor Tanking is still in need of some balancing, shields have reigned too long
And yes, I do acknowledge that the Attack Battleships come with a gigantic (lowered) sig radius, relatively disappointing (better) agility, snail-like (faster) top speed, and elephant class (but lighter) mass.
The problem is that, even combining all of these attributes into one "attack" battleship, it doesn't define itself much in comparison to the Combat Battleships. With an Atron and an Incursus, you can REALLY tell that one is faster, more nimble, etc. With a Thorax vs a Vexor you still get the feeling that you do in fact have speed and agility on your side. With battleships, you do not. They are defined by their class size and hampered by balance. CCP simply can't increase the speed of attack Battleships to a level where it would make more sense for the role, because it causes balance problems amongst the smaller ship classes. But at the same time, it doesn't offer enough of a difference to really say "The Megathron is an attack Battleship designed for 'fast, aggressive' combat." Because it simply ISN'T fast or aggressive, like its younger siblings (Atron, Thorax, Talos).
I'm not really saying that CCP should just remove the role and remove the buffs/nerfs provided therein. It just is the most meaningless role for a class that is defined by being bulky, tanky, hard hitting sonuvaguns. Save the drones! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:07:00 -
[2565] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Battleship Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Hyperion: 143.75m/s Megathron: 152.5m/s
That's a 6% increase in speed on the Megathron versus the Hyperion. I don't think I even have to pull out the MWD and AB velocities to get the point across that it's hard to compare the "Attack Battleship/Combat Battleship" speeds to the Cruiser levels, let alone frigates.
The comparison is dishonest ; the Hyperion is not a true combat BS speed wise, and comparing to the Dominix would be a lot fairer.
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Megathron: 152.5m/s Dominix: 136,25m/s
Speed increase is now 12%, which is 5% less than the speed increase from cruiser standard, which is the same pattern from cruisers to frigates.
In fact, the Hyperion shouldn't be seen as a combat BS IMO, or only in the gallente fashion, which is more small gang oriented where speed matter a lot.
As for the attack role in itself, as CCP Rise said, it's oriented toward damage application, with bonus to this (for the Raven, the Apocalypse and the Megathron). The odd ones here are the minmatar attack ships in fact, but they have plenty of midslots for this. |
Tierere
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:11:00 -
[2566] - Quote
Having played with the domi on sisi...
The sentry drones are very nice for anti cruiser sized ships, but just dont have the dps to combat another battleship.
The drones are always lost unless the ship stays completly still.
The domi used to be one the most versatile ships available but this has been lost.
A fun ship for it's novelty value but cant see it being used much.
Drones need love as well.
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
575
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:13:00 -
[2567] - Quote
The Hyperion should lose a bit of speed IMO, or lose that silly armour rep bonus. Slot layout and fittings is great, dps is great, it's just a bit too fast for the HP it has and if, in the hyperions case, I had to choose between losing hp or losing speed, i'd lose speed to allow it to better differentiate with the megathron. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Jason Sirober
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:40:00 -
[2568] - Quote
Hi.
So I just EFT'd this and the Megathron absolutely bleeds cap now that the ROF bonus replaced the Damage bonus.
Using T2 Neutons with Null it uses 3.9 Cap/sec MORE than the old Mega and using Void it uses 5 Cap/sec more... That is 34% increased Cap use for 6.25% increase in DPS and a 20% drop in Alpha... Reasonable? I think NOT
I see this as a MASSIVE nerf as it will seriously affect Cap stability. The extra low you gave us now will have to house a Cap Power Relay...
Thanks CCP |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
575
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:46:00 -
[2569] - Quote
Didn't capacitor size and/or regen rate go up?
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Jason Sirober
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:53:00 -
[2570] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Didn't capacitor size and/or regen rate go up?
Base Cap went up by 175 and regen up by 0.4 Cap/sec
This equates to 219 Cap and 0.6 Cap/sec at All level V which is relevant for the discussion.
Doesnt seem ballanced at all |
|
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:55:00 -
[2571] - Quote
Jason Sirober wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:Didn't capacitor size and/or regen rate go up?
Base Cap went up by 175 and regen up by 0.4 Cap/sec This equates to 219 Cap and 0.6 Cap/sec at All level V which is relevant for the discussion. Doesnt seem ballanced at all
Well imagine how the amarr pilots feel x10 for the abbadon and the Apoc ... silly thing is the abbadon could be solved quite easy. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Jason Sirober
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:59:00 -
[2572] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:Jason Sirober wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:Didn't capacitor size and/or regen rate go up?
Base Cap went up by 175 and regen up by 0.4 Cap/sec This equates to 219 Cap and 0.6 Cap/sec at All level V which is relevant for the discussion. Doesnt seem ballanced at all Well imagine how the amarr pilots feel x10 for the abbadon and the Apoc ... silly thing is the abbadon could be solved quite easy.
Thing is We have Ammo... Amarr Ammo IS Cap.... Big difference |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 05:26:00 -
[2573] - Quote
It's amazing - when people ask for fitting advice everyone says "Don't worry about cap stability - it doesn't matter in PvP and in PvPE use a booster", and yet there's pages upon pages of people ranting in here about how their favourite ship now isn't cap-stable.
Yes, some people talk about it rationally, but way too many have chosen "the standard fit must be cap stable on a POS bash" as their hill to stand and die on.
|
Temai
The Scope
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 09:07:00 -
[2574] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:It's amazing - when people ask for fitting advice everyone says "Don't worry about cap stability - it doesn't matter in PvP and in PvPE use a booster", and yet there's pages upon pages of people ranting in here about how their favourite ship now isn't cap-stable.
Yes, some people talk about it rationally, but way too many have chosen "the standard fit must be cap stable on a POS bash" as their hill to stand and die on.
i would view it more as people like the fitting options to make it stabel unstable boosting or not boosting,
i personly make my PvE ships Cap stable.. why you ask? so i dont have to think about it to much and can just burn though it.
for PvP cap stability is and isnt an issue, but the effect it is haveing on the mega atm i would probly say it will be joining the amarr ships in blobs asking for Cap Trandfers to keep its self running even if it carrys its boosting you then have to carry more ammo as well to keep your self in the fight and not run dry, so basicly what is taken in to pvp in ammo and cap is now gona need to be dubbled to keep runing for the same time.
i have said i dont like this new cap drain, ammo cost and mostly its fore this point its increses the cost of runing the ship by quiet a bit, more expensive it is to run less likely people will want to use it over something else it all adds up and for that small damg inccress i have to ask is it worth it? i dont think it is.
- Lost in Space looking for a Home dreaming of building outpost's acrross EVE - |
Ruaro
Space monitoring
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 11:42:00 -
[2575] - Quote
This question was raised before but again - do we really have to loose one module for drone ships? Then let's have drone boats to have more drones to control and more control range to compensate because as already mentioned if you use utility drones you loose all your DPS. Probably need to balance but 6 drone 150 bandwith Domi would be interesting and different from Armageddon. |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
455
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 12:48:00 -
[2576] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:interesting post ^^^
But still some effort should be put in the increase the speed of attack battleships but its not just speed bonus they get -lower sig radius -higher agility -higher speed -lower mass
so the attack role is a little more than one dimensional.
Also the Mach is probably a little OP in terms of speed and agility with all its 7 lows to add nanos... Part of the problem with the Hyperion vs Megathron comparison is that .. -active tank has no speed penalties anymore -plates/trimarks nerf speed and agility.
Which kinda highlights that the attack role suits shield tankers more
This is exactly why I think the roles of the dominix and megathron should be swapped. Dominix has a slot layout that suits the attack role much better, the megathron does not...
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
104
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 13:25:00 -
[2577] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ExAstra wrote:Battleship Level
Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Hyperion: 143.75m/s Megathron: 152.5m/s
That's a 6% increase in speed on the Megathron versus the Hyperion. I don't think I even have to pull out the MWD and AB velocities to get the point across that it's hard to compare the "Attack Battleship/Combat Battleship" speeds to the Cruiser levels, let alone frigates.
The comparison is dishonest ; the Hyperion is not a true combat BS speed wise, and comparing to the Dominix would be a lot fairer. Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity Megathron: 152.5m/s Dominix: 136,25m/s Speed increase is now 12%, which is 5% less than the speed increase from cruiser standard, which is the same pattern from cruisers to frigates. In fact, the Hyperion shouldn't be seen as a combat BS IMO, or only in the gallente fashion, which is more small gang oriented where speed matter a lot. As for the attack role in itself, as CCP Rise said, it's oriented toward damage application, with bonus to this (for the Raven, the Apocalypse and the Megathron). The odd ones here are the minmatar attack ships in fact, but they have plenty of midslots for this. It's not a dishonest comparison because both of these ships rely completely on guns for their offensive prowess. The Dominix doesn't NEED to be fast to get damage in, being a drone boat. The only reason the Thorax was compared to the Vexor is because there simply isn't another option for a combat cruiser to choose from on the Gallente lineup. Save the drones! |
Jason Sirober
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 14:13:00 -
[2578] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:It's amazing - when people ask for fitting advice everyone says "Don't worry about cap stability - it doesn't matter in PvP and in PvPE use a booster", and yet there's pages upon pages of people ranting in here about how their favourite ship now isn't cap-stable.
Yes, some people talk about it rationally, but way too many have chosen "the standard fit must be cap stable on a POS bash" as their hill to stand and die on.
You are quite clearly an imbecile if you think people POS bash in a Mega with Neutron Blasters.... |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
193
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 14:53:00 -
[2579] - Quote
The Rokh should really be much faster though with its blasters and all, Null and optimal range bonus only does so much... also its a range bonus makes it more like an attack role oddly ....
Considering how slow and heavy the abbadon is much like the Rokh its not hard too compare
Maelstrom is strangely slow... -being small gang ship .. or at least its bonus would suggest this -being minmatar its surprisingly slow compared to other races combat ships
Megathron makes no sense being 'attack' whilst using blasters on an plated armour ship ... shield fit makes more sense. -domi has barely been nerfed in terms of speed and mass .. it no longer needs it so much without Hybrid damage bonus 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
211
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:04:00 -
[2580] - Quote
The domi needs more pg to compensate for the loss of bonused hybrids "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" -Evernub |
|
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
190
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:49:00 -
[2581] - Quote
The problem with the cap on the mega plus the new RoF is that you will not be able to keep your guns running under completely normal circumstances (using no other modules and not getting neuted).
One of the few advantages of blasters over pulse ships until these changes was that you could rely on them to be able to keep firing their guns as long as you turned off all the other modules (mwd, neuts, etc.). Anyone who has been in a low sec triage carrier fight knows that these things can sometimes go on for a long time and people run out of ammo/cap at the worst times. One of the downsides of the Abaddon, since it has great dps, great projection, and great tank, is that in a longer fight, you're going to be screaming like a ***** for cap once you run out of boosters. It's a PITA to have your guards cap up your ships just so they can fire their guns, so this is one area where Gallente ships actually performed well, especially since they had a native dps advantage (though not always in practice due to tank requirements).
If the changes go through as they are, that advantage will be gone, and we'll be left with a weapon system with **** range that will cap out when you're balls deep in the middle of an enemy fleet. It's a big deal to not even be able to run your guns by themselves and be cap stable. No other level of hybrids has this problem, and it's going to make Gallente BS even less desirable. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:07:00 -
[2582] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:It's not a dishonest comparison because both of these ships rely completely on guns for their offensive prowess. The Dominix doesn't NEED to be fast to get damage in, being a drone boat. The only reason the Thorax was compared to the Vexor is because there simply isn't another option for a combat cruiser to choose from on the Gallente lineup.
Granted, this trend is actually different amongst Caldari and Amarr, where their Attack Battleships are actually quite faster than their closest combat counterpart. But let's use the Megathron vs Dominix, as you like. We find here that:
1) Raven is 26.96% faster than the Rokh 2) Apocalypse is 26.96% faster than the Abaddon 3) Tempest is 35.10% faster than the Maelstrom (Typhoon, Attack BS #2 is 38.29% faster) 3) Megathron is 11.96% faster than the Dominix
First question, did CCP give Caldari/Amarr the exact same speeds on purpose (lawl)? The problem with the Gallente Attack Battleship is that our ships are already decently quick, like I said, and our "Attack" variant comes in with, at highest value, 15% less of a speed boost compared to its counterparts. CCP can't get them that same feeling of speed over their combat counterparts because it either ruins our combat BS by nerfing their speeds, or it simply makes the Megathron too fast.
I have no issues with the Megathron's speed as it is. But I think it makes more sense to just call it a Combat Battleship and give us 3 Combat Battleships, as the Minmatar get 2 Attack Battleships. Really though, I don't think it matters much. If I had my way, I'd slow the Mega down, buff its HP, call it Combat; conversely I'd nerf Hyperion HP a bit, buff its speed further, and call it Attack. If it's not dishonest, you can admit that it's not really relevant at least.
The thing is that gallente ships are designed for blasters, and blaster ships got speed to be able to reach their target with the hybrid rebalance.
Combat and attack role are not meant to kill racial identity anyway, despite some people believing the contrary. And you shouldn't mistake combat with fleet. The only "real" fleet ship of the gallente lineup is the Dominix. Attack BS are some kind of light battleships designed to shoot at smaller target and fly along them whereas combat battleship are more designed for battleship fights. That's a general idea though, not more, and you need to add fleet and skirmish ability on top of that : the Maelstrom, despite the shield booster bonus, is more of a fleet ship, and the shield booster bonus only add a small gang ability but it's not a brawler. The Hyperion though is clearly a brawler designed to catch and stand, but will now lack some punch for fleet. And the Megathron is a support counterpart for the Hyperion, designed to shoot at smaller things.
IMO, the BS attack role is geared toward ABC (and BC) countering : they have the tank to stand against them, (more than anything lighter but the hardest CBC) and the range, damage and damage application to return back the punishment. An ABS should be able to take on 2 ABC on its own IMO, and still sport enough mobility to get safe before the fight escalate. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:09:00 -
[2583] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:If the changes go through as they are, that advantage will be gone, and we'll be left with a weapon system with **** range that will cap out when you're balls deep in the middle of an enemy fleet. It's a big deal to not even be able to run your guns by themselves and be cap stable. No other level of hybrids has this problem, and it's going to make Gallente BS even less desirable. Just use the Hyperion for these situations ? |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
191
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:17:00 -
[2584] - Quote
The hype has less dps and a wasted bonus, not to mention more of its dps comes from drones. Even if the hype would be able to do this kind of work, that's no reason to make the mega cap-unstable even when its running its guns and nothing else. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:21:00 -
[2585] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ExAstra wrote:It's not a dishonest comparison because both of these ships rely completely on guns for their offensive prowess. The Dominix doesn't NEED to be fast to get damage in, being a drone boat. The only reason the Thorax was compared to the Vexor is because there simply isn't another option for a combat cruiser to choose from on the Gallente lineup.
Granted, this trend is actually different amongst Caldari and Amarr, where their Attack Battleships are actually quite faster than their closest combat counterpart. But let's use the Megathron vs Dominix, as you like. We find here that:
1) Raven is 26.96% faster than the Rokh 2) Apocalypse is 26.96% faster than the Abaddon 3) Tempest is 35.10% faster than the Maelstrom (Typhoon, Attack BS #2 is 38.29% faster) 3) Megathron is 11.96% faster than the Dominix
First question, did CCP give Caldari/Amarr the exact same speeds on purpose (lawl)? The problem with the Gallente Attack Battleship is that our ships are already decently quick, like I said, and our "Attack" variant comes in with, at highest value, 15% less of a speed boost compared to its counterparts. CCP can't get them that same feeling of speed over their combat counterparts because it either ruins our combat BS by nerfing their speeds, or it simply makes the Megathron too fast.
I have no issues with the Megathron's speed as it is. But I think it makes more sense to just call it a Combat Battleship and give us 3 Combat Battleships, as the Minmatar get 2 Attack Battleships. Really though, I don't think it matters much. If I had my way, I'd slow the Mega down, buff its HP, call it Combat; conversely I'd nerf Hyperion HP a bit, buff its speed further, and call it Attack. If it's not dishonest, you can admit that it's not really relevant at least. The thing is that gallente ships are designed for blasters, and blaster ships got speed to be able to reach their target with the hybrid rebalance. Combat and attack role are not meant to kill racial identity anyway, despite some people believing the contrary. And you shouldn't mistake combat with fleet. The only "real" fleet ship of the gallente lineup is the Dominix. Attack BS are some kind of light battleships designed to shoot at smaller target and fly along them whereas combat battleship are more designed for battleship fights. That's a general idea though, not more, and you need to add fleet and skirmish ability on top of that : the Maelstrom, despite the shield booster bonus, is more of a fleet ship, and the shield booster bonus only add a small gang ability but it's not a brawler. The Hyperion though is clearly a brawler designed to catch and stand, but will now lack some punch for fleet. And the Megathron is a support counterpart for the Hyperion, designed to shoot at smaller things. IMO, the BS attack role is geared toward ABC (and BC) countering : they have the tank to stand against them, (more than anything lighter but the hardest CBC) and the range, damage and damage application to return back the punishment. An ABS should be able to take on 2 ABC on its own IMO, and still sport enough mobility to get safe before the fight escalate. You can only call the comparison irrelevant if you call the title of Attack Battleship irrelevant, as I already mentioned.
As I've already said, this was entirely in the interest of numbers and comparison. And before you go completely misunderstanding what I'm saying, I will remind you that I have already stated:
Quote:...both of these ships rely completely on guns for their offensive prowess. The Dominix doesn't NEED to be fast to get damage in, being a drone boat. ...The problem with the Gallente Attack Battleship is that our ships are already decently quick... ... CCP can't get them that same feeling of speed over their combat counterparts because it either ruins our combat BS by nerfing their speeds, or it simply makes the Megathron too fast... ....I have no issues with the Megathron's speed as it is.
I've clearly shown that I'm not arguing about any problems with the Megathron. The label of attack Battleship just DOESN'T make sense on it, when our other ships are already nearly as quick as it is, and it only gets a fraction of the speedboost over its closest counterpart (which would be the Hyperion in this case) when compared to the other races. And if you feel that you can call the comparison irrelevant in any sense, then you are agreeing with me. The Attack Battleship label on the Megathron is relatively meaningless.
I'm not saying it's a big deal, I'm not crying for change, etc. I am simply stating facts and providing information, followed by my opinion on the matter (Which is either give us 3 combat Battleships or make the Hyperion the Attack Battleship instead) Save the drones! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:33:00 -
[2586] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:I've clearly shown that I'm not arguing about any problems with the Megathron. The label of attack Battleship just DOESN'T make sense on it, when our other ships are already nearly as quick as it is, and it only gets a fraction of the speedboost over its closest counterpart (which would be the Hyperion in this case) when compared to the other races. And if you feel that you can call the comparison irrelevant in any sense, then you are agreeing with me. The Attack Battleship label on the Megathron is relatively meaningless.
I'm not saying it's a big deal, I'm not crying for change, etc. I am simply stating facts and providing information, followed by my opinion on the matter (Which is either give us 3 combat Battleships or make the Hyperion the Attack Battleship instead) Not if you read my whole post where, at the end, I say that this attack role relate more to damage application than to speed.
You can think it's meaningless, or you can just read CCP Rise description :
CCP Rise wrote:As with other ship classes, attack battleships will be faster, more agile, and will focus more on damage application and projection than their combat counterparts.
Indeed the speed difference don't appear a lot for gallente BS, but still, it's there, and that's not the only thing going for attack BS. In this way, the Hyperion couldn't fit the attack role without losing the armor rep bonus (I guess a lot would love that) and the Megathron couldn't go to the combat role without losing the tracking bonus (I guess a lot would hate that).
The first proposition for Mega and Hype made more sense IMO, but I'm getting used to this one. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:56:00 -
[2587] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ExAstra wrote:I've clearly shown that I'm not arguing about any problems with the Megathron. The label of attack Battleship just DOESN'T make sense on it, when our other ships are already nearly as quick as it is, and it only gets a fraction of the speedboost over its closest counterpart (which would be the Hyperion in this case) when compared to the other races. And if you feel that you can call the comparison irrelevant in any sense, then you are agreeing with me. The Attack Battleship label on the Megathron is relatively meaningless.
I'm not saying it's a big deal, I'm not crying for change, etc. I am simply stating facts and providing information, followed by my opinion on the matter (Which is either give us 3 combat Battleships or make the Hyperion the Attack Battleship instead) Not if you read my whole post where, at the end, I say that this attack role relate more to damage application than to speed. You can think it's meaningless, or you can just read CCP Rise description : CCP Rise wrote:As with other ship classes, attack battleships will be faster, more agile, and will focus more on damage application and projection than their combat counterparts. Indeed the speed difference don't appear a lot for gallente BS, but still, it's there, and that's not the only thing going for attack BS. In this way, the Hyperion couldn't fit the attack role without losing the armor rep bonus (I guess a lot would love that) and the Megathron couldn't go to the combat role without losing the tracking bonus (I guess a lot would hate that). The first proposition for Mega and Hype made more sense IMO, but I'm getting used to this one. I have to disagree about the first proposition making more sense. I am incredibly pleased that those initial ideas were tossed aside.
In regards to Rise's idea of Attack Battleships, that's all well and good, but the only information available to us is "The Megathron is an Attack Battleship designed for fast, aggressive combat." makes it appear to be basically the Battleship sized version of an ABC. Something that's fast and hits hard and is more worried about how tough its foe's hide is than its own. Also, it is pretty arguable that the most important thing to the Megathron is speed and agility as a blaster ship, blaster tracking is fairly decent after the hybrid buff.
The Tempest also completely fails to fulfill its role as an Attack Battleship if "damage application and projection" is to be considered. The Raven is slightly questionable in that aspect as well, I would say the Typhoon does a better job at being an Attack Battleship than either of them. Mainly because the explosion velocity bonus on the 'phoon is much closer to the Tracking bonus given to the Megathron and Apocalypse.
The problem with the Tempest, I think, is that it's doing too little DPS for too little range. It should get a higher damage bonus and a falloff bonus, in my opinion.
But this is the Gallente thread. Save the drones! |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:18:00 -
[2588] - Quote
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:40:00 -
[2589] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked.
I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is. Save the drones! |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
137
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:30:00 -
[2590] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked. I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.
I suspect that it's because they've chosen to tinker with existing stats rather than rework from a standardised base.
It would make far more sense given the descriptions of attack/combat ships for battleships to differentiate more extremely along those lines. 1 ship line should be doing a LOT more damage than the other and should suffer similarly with it's tank. I'd like to see 50% more dps on one line and 100% better tank (ehp) on the other. As already discussed I don't see speed being a defining characteristic for bs given the limitations of not treading on the toes of smaller ships and the removal of speed as a characteristic by any smaller ship applying tackle, which leaves tank and gank. |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:46:00 -
[2591] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked. I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.
But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :) |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
106
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:40:00 -
[2592] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked. I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is. But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :) I'd say it's far more likely to fit highs with Drone Link Augmentors, actually. Save the drones! |
Jason Sirober
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:41:00 -
[2593] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked. I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is. But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)
WRONG
You'd be flying the Armageddon instead if you wanted to do that. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:48:00 -
[2594] - Quote
Jason Sirober wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:ExAstra wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked. I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is. But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :) WRONG You'd be flying the Armageddon instead if you wanted to do that.
Peopel wil stil use neuts on dominixes. As they will with tempest even while other ships are better.
No neither of the 2 are good neut boats, but they WILL USE NEUTS because they cannto do anything better than that! |
Jason Sirober
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:21:00 -
[2595] - Quote
Quote:But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)
This is NOT the same as saying the dominix will not use ANY neuts at all.
I was refering to the fact that if you wanted to put neuts in ALL the high slots, that you'd be better off flying an Armageddon instead. |
mine mi
Boinas Rojas Gentlemen's Agreement
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 22:01:00 -
[2596] - Quote
maybe the gallente need two attacks bs like minma, while domi remain combat, the other two need be fast and agile to keep in blaster range |
Perihelion Olenard
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:13:00 -
[2597] - Quote
Jason Sirober wrote:Quote:But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :) This is NOT the same as saying the dominix will not use ANY neuts at all. I was refering to the fact that if you wanted to put neuts in ALL the high slots, that you'd be better off flying an Armageddon instead. It also depends on if you need that midslot over an extra high and a neut range bonus. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
212
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:31:00 -
[2598] - Quote
I also think the dominix should get 6 launcher slots, since it no longer gets a bonus to a particular weapon. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" -Evernub |
Zanquis
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 21:00:00 -
[2599] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted. Hyperion:
Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1500s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Looks good. Interesting take since it moves some of it's DPS to drones. (The guns will produce a bit less dps than the current model, but the net dps will be higher for adding another heavy drone)
However I would caution you that with a reduction of 2 guns from the rack you are giving this ship a *VERY* big cession in fitting for PG. Guns are far more demanding than most low slot enhancements. I think that instead of increasing the PG you should decrease it a tad so that it would be challenging to fit a energy neut in the utility high without making a sacrifice. If you leave it as is, I'm afraid it will be easy to fit this ship any way you like without consequence. That's not the eve way! |
magikalcoffee
In Your Moms Red Clam DOT
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 22:08:00 -
[2600] - Quote
these changes are generally poor and im rather upset about the ass f****ng the domi is getting! at the moment i can get 1600 dps from mine and will be very sad to lose it to ccp rather than a blob, drones are week on their own as they gotta drag their fat asses to the ship before any damage can be layed down and for pve it will be more or less redundant due to the new A.I which creams drones as it is let alone having to come back from further away due to a pointless bonus to drone range which can be easily extended with a mod now as the damage bonus has gone for turrets anyway |
|
supernova ranger
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 05:30:00 -
[2601] - Quote
QUICK! Someone get a medical kit because my Domi is dying!
Heavy drones are useless in pve and pvp unless your in a typhoon because no other ship is fast enough to get in close enough to guard/ pull in their heavies when they start getting shot at... And the typhoon fails here too because it can't really tank and survives by not getting hit... |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
110
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 06:40:00 -
[2602] - Quote
Zanquis wrote:CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted. Hyperion:
Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Large Hybrid Turret damage +7.5% Armor Repair amount
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1500s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 485
Looks good. Interesting take since it moves some of it's DPS to drones. (The guns will produce a bit less dps than the current model, but the net dps will be higher for adding another heavy drone) However I would caution you that with a reduction of 2 guns from the rack you are giving this ship a *VERY* big cession in fitting for PG. Guns are far more demanding than most low slot enhancements. I think that instead of increasing the PG you should decrease it a tad so that it would be challenging to fit a energy neut in the utility high without making a sacrifice. If you leave it as is, I'm afraid it will be easy to fit this ship any way you like without consequence. That's not the eve way! Multiple LARs plus rep rigging (which now multiplies powergrid consumption). At all V, Large Armor Rep IIs use an extra 200 powergrid over Neutron Blaster Cannon IIs, and when you rig it with Nano Pumps and Nano Accelerators the dual reps (popular fit uses tri-reps) account for 1/4 of the Hyperion's Powergrid, easily. I should also note that it's not often I ever run out of Powergrid on Gallente ships.
The Hyperion will also require the large Powergrid if it wishes to make use of Railguns, which it NOW can. The old Hyperion could not reasonably use Railguns. Save the drones! |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 15:50:00 -
[2603] - Quote
So is that a no to more cap on the mega to make up for the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus? |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
112
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:40:00 -
[2604] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:So is that a no to more cap on the mega to make up for the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus? Use your new low slot for a cap power relay. Bam, problem solved, moving on. Save the drones! |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:52:00 -
[2605] - Quote
So then I give up a mag stab or a tank mod? Then I have the exact same thing as the current mega, but with no utility high. The mega is only buffed by these changes if you use all your low slots for tank/gank. I really don't think it's too much to ask to be able to run your blasters cap stable as long as you're not using any other mods. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2948
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 18:09:00 -
[2606] - Quote
idk, I've never even considered flying a Mega without a cap booster. Or any other blaster PVP ship without some counter to cap warfare. Cap stability matters only for POS bashing without logis and NPC corp missioners tbh.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 18:32:00 -
[2607] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:So then I give up a mag stab or a tank mod? Then I have the exact same thing as the current mega, but with no utility high. The mega is only buffed by these changes if you use all your low slots for tank/gank. I really don't think it's too much to ask to be able to run your blasters cap stable as long as you're not using any other mods. Actually, you're still gaining gun DPS over the old megathron due to its new bonus. Congrats.
Roime wrote:idk, I've never even considered flying a Mega without a cap booster. Or any other blaster PVP ship without some counter to cap warfare. Cap stability matters only for POS bashing without logis and NPC corp missioners tbh. Really though guys, the cap drain on the new Mega isn't as awful as you're making it sound and it should have cap boosters anyway. So color me slightly confused. Save the drones! |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
193
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 20:09:00 -
[2608] - Quote
Cap stability matters for long fights that involve lots of logi. No one uses megas for POS bashing. If you've ever fought a triage archon in low sec, you know you need a long cap life to keep fighting after you run out of boosters. This is one of the few advantages the mega has over something like a geddon or an abaddon, which pretty much require cap boosters to shoot.
The amount of gun dps you gain over the current mega if you fit a cap recharger in one of the lows is about 6% more. That ain't worth the loss of the utility high, and then we're just back to almost the same stats as the current mega. I seriously don't get why we can't just add enough cap to the mega to allow it to keep firing. This should be one of the few advantages hybrid weapons have over lasers. Even though they're vulnerable to neuts, they can at least keep firing without any help from boosters. With the new version, now not only do they have **** poor range and can be shut off by neuts, but they require cap boosters just to keep firing. A hybrid ship should not be crippled when it runs out of cap boosters, but that's exactly what's going to happen if they don't increase the cap or increase the recharge or both.
To put it succinctly, my point is not that I don't want to fit cap boosters, I already do. The point is that I want to be able to fire my bloody guns without having to inject an 800 booster. The cap booster is for countering neuts and being able to run everything else you put on your mega while firing guns. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:49:00 -
[2609] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:To put it succinctly, my point is not that I don't want to fit cap boosters, I already do. The point is that I want to be able to fire my bloody guns without having to inject an 800 booster. The cap booster is for countering neuts and being able to run everything else you put on your mega while firing guns. You also don't want to use the Hyperion. |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc. Bulgarian Space Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 10:22:00 -
[2610] - Quote
Cap recharge should've been calculated on a per shooting gun basis, and type of gun with some base cap recharge for all ships, and type of tanking.
example (with made up figures). Every BS gets 10 basic recharge(for prop, hardeners etc.) a mega gets on top of that 7x2.2 or 15.4 cap recharge extra for hybrid gun shooting with ROF bonus or total of 25.4 a hyperion gets 6x2 or 12 cap recharge bonus for it's guns + 10 extra for active repper bonus or total of 32 an apoc gets 8x3 cap bonus for it's guns(lazors getting higher coefficient due to guns using more cap) or 34 cap recharge a maelstrom gets the 10 bonus for local rep bonus but no cap bonus for guns since proj are capless or a total of 20 cap. Domi for instance gets no cap boni other than the base 10 since it will have no bonus to shooting guns and no bonus to tanking so domi cap would be 10. new geddon will get the 10 base + the bonus cap for running neuts....
And so on.
If you follow the formula there would be no need for complicated cap bonuses and no ships running out of cap just by turning on their guns.
Surely a good ship designer would think in advance and not let it's creation to cripple itself just by shooting at enemies and would give the ship as much cap as it needs. |
|
AstraPardus
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
258
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 14:09:00 -
[2611] - Quote
Dominix Change: Yay! \o/
Megathron Change: Ok, sure.
Hyperion Change: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO~!!! Every time I post is Pardy time! :3 |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:25:00 -
[2612] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:To put it succinctly, my point is not that I don't want to fit cap boosters, I already do. The point is that I want to be able to fire my bloody guns without having to inject an 800 booster. The cap booster is for countering neuts and being able to run everything else you put on your mega while firing guns. You also don't want to use the Hyperion.
Why is the fact that you can now use the Hyperion as a fleet ship an argument for making the mega more cap hungry? I mean seriously, what is the reason for keeping the mega from being able to fire its guns without a cap booster? Because the Hype can be used in the old megas role now that means the new mega shouldn't have that role anymore? And if that's the case, what the hell do you use the new mega for now? Explain this one to me, why should we give the mega less cap life now that the hype is a usable ship? |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:46:00 -
[2613] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Why is the fact that you can now use the Hyperion as a fleet ship an argument for making the mega more cap hungry? I mean seriously, what is the reason for keeping the mega from being able to fire its guns without a cap booster? Because the Hype can be used in the old megas role now that means the new mega shouldn't have that role anymore? And if that's the case, what the hell do you use the new mega for now? Explain this one to me, why should we give the mega less cap life now that the hype is a usable ship? The cap life problem of the Megathron only arise in specific scenarios. That make the cap life a tradeoff for gun dps in these scenarios : the Mega have more gun dps but more cap problems than the Hype. The Hype have utility and cap, but more drone dps. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 16:32:00 -
[2614] - Quote
Lets put it more broadly then. Why should a Gallente blasterboat have cap problems at all when all it is doing is firing its guns? It's not like we're getting a **** ton more gun dps than the old mega, we're getting about 7% more. And yet the cap life has gone down significantly.
We don't get the range of lasers, our dps isn't that much more than other turret types, so why should we have to deal with yet another drawback? I would think the shortest range would be enough of a drawback on its own. Having to put yourself in the optimal of almost every single offensive module in this game should be enough of a disadvantage that we don't need yet more reasons not to fly a Gallente ship. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Error-404
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:01:00 -
[2615] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Lets put it more broadly then. Why should a Gallente blasterboat have cap problems at all when all it is doing is firing its guns? It's not like we're getting a **** ton more gun dps than the old mega, we're getting about 7% more. And yet the cap life has gone down significantly.
Fitting a Heavy Cap Booster II with 800s is more than enough to keep the ship running even while under moderate nuetage. Yes, there is an increase in cap usage as well as ammo usage with the new bonus however this increase is really not as significant as you seem to be implying.
As for the 7% part. Yes, this is true, before overheat... The swap of dps from drones to guns enables a larger portion of your dps to benefit from heating increasing the difference in peak dps beyond 7%. While this may not seem significant, the different in heated dps between new and old mega is well over 100 dps. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:08:00 -
[2616] - Quote
Look I admit this is a niche issue that I'm complaining about, getting into long BS fights doesn't happen all that often (though I believe it happens more than some people think). And I don't mind fitting the heavy cap booster II, I keep it standard on my mega fit. My issue is that I need the boosters to cap up after a MWD burn, or a MJD, or to keep using my neut (I guess that only applies to the navy mega now, but still). I just don't want to lose functionality in the ship once I run out of boosters, which happens often enough to make it a problem.
I just don't see why the mega can't get more cap. What is it going to hurt? |
Jerick Ludhowe
Error-404
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:15:00 -
[2617] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I just don't see why the mega can't get more cap. What is it going to hurt?
Honestly, probably won't hurt anything and I'm not going to argue against it as the mega, in usage, is one of the most cap intensive ships. Bringing the ship into range uses a large amount of cap on top of the fact that the range it applies damage at is the same range where it can be nueted. Overall I think a modest increase in cap to offset the increased cap usage of the bonus is a reasonable proposal.
What I was mainly getting at is that I do not believe that the new mega is going to be worse than the old mega. Its increase in dps, specifically in turrets, offsets the loss of drone dps and the utility high slot (i think). The increase in mobility is also nice. Still, the increase in cap to offset the increased cap usage of rof would be nice.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 21:00:00 -
[2618] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:I just don't see why the mega can't get more cap. What is it going to hurt? What differenciate the Megathron from the Hyperion in the first place ?
IMO, the only thing the Mega does better the Hype is railgun warfare because of the now best hybrid guns dps and the loss of drones. But considering the range of blasters, the utility of the Hyperion make it a better ship for almost all cases where you would use blasters.
Then, I don't see why all ships should be cap stable using their guns in the most cap intensive fittings, but that's another problem. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 21:36:00 -
[2619] - Quote
How is firing only your guns the most cap intensive setting? I'm not suggesting they get so much cap that they can permarun mwd while firing void and running dual reps :P.
I don't see cap as a valid trade off for more dps, at least looking at the Hype versus the Mega. You get more dps from the mega (more gun dps anyway, does anyone know what it is when you factor in the Hype's expanded drone bay?) and more utility from the Hype. Hype has more room for ewar, and that utility high for a heavy neut. The mega has more dps. Sounds perfectly fine to me. Why the mega needs to cap out firing only its guns I have no idea. This is not a problem for any of the smaller blaster ships, be it the Brutix, Thorax, or any of the frig hulls. Why should it be a problem here? |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2961
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 22:10:00 -
[2620] - Quote
3 Magstabs, burst aerator and collision accelerator Neutron fit spits out over 600 000 damage (with very conservative heating) while running full tackle before it runs out of cap without cap injection. You have 675m3 cargo bay, which means enough space for 10 full ammo reloads and 44 Navy 400's.
Sustained shooting doesn't seem to be a huge issue.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 22:14:00 -
[2621] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:How is firing only your guns the most cap intensive setting? I'm not suggesting they get so much cap that they can permarun mwd while firing void and running dual reps :P.
I don't see cap as a valid trade off for more dps, at least looking at the Hype versus the Mega. You get more dps from the mega (more gun dps anyway, does anyone know what it is when you factor in the Hype's expanded drone bay?) and more utility from the Hype. Hype has more room for ewar, and that utility high for a heavy neut. The mega has more dps. Sounds perfectly fine to me. Why the mega needs to cap out firing only its guns I have no idea. This is not a problem for any of the smaller blaster ships, be it the Brutix, Thorax, or any of the frig hulls. Why should it be a problem here? By "most cap intensive fitting", I was talking about full rack of neutron loaded with antimat, MWD off (still -25% cap) and 2 or 3 MFS in the lows.
BTW, I also think that neutron blasters are too easy to fit and use (which make blasters eating on the ground of other weapon systems).
I'm not opposed to a bit more cap for Megathron, but I don't see the need for it whereas that make a drawback to it which make the armor repper bonus of the Hyperion less repulsive. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 22:29:00 -
[2622] - Quote
Roime wrote:3 Magstabs, burst aerator and collision accelerator Neutron fit spits out over 600 000 damage (with very conservative heating) while running full tackle before it runs out of cap without cap injection. You have 675m3 cargo bay, which means enough space for 10 full ammo reloads and 44 Navy 400's.
Sustained shooting doesn't seem to be a huge issue.
Admittedly, its more of an issue for the Navy Mega, since it keeps the neut in the utility high, plus the new RoF bonus, so your boosters are going to be working much harder on that hull. The actual amount of damage being spit out isn't the issue, its sustained dps over a period of time. As an FC, I need my ships being able to keep sustained dps on a carrier or target under reps so that it forces the carrier to commit those reps. If I have ships dropping their dps cause they run out of boosters, then I've got a big problem. However, I do see your point with the boosters, I just hate having to worry about booster management in the middle of a big/long fight.
Maybe it's not as big an issue with the regular mega, but I still think a bit more cap wouldn't hurt, and the navythron certainly needs a lot more cap than it has currently, since it keeps the utility high.
Also to Bouh, I don't think nerfing the mega to make the Hype's bonus more attractive makes sense. The rep bonus is utter shite, you're not going to use a Hype in a fleet with a local repper fitted to it. No matter how bad the mega is, it's not going to make the Hype more attractive than it already is, it's just going to make someone crosstrain to Amarr ships. We shouldn't be nerfing a ship to make another ship more attractive, we should be buffing ships so that they're not utter shite. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2962
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 05:28:00 -
[2623] - Quote
Well I get your point as well, but we're talking about +45 minutes of shooting Void. Over an hour of antimatter. Your ship has been dreadblapped off the field as of 40 minutes agoGÇê
The rep bonus of the Hype is everything but shite, it's useless in blobs, sure, but really who gives a ****? It's awesome on the small scale, you know the scale where PVP is actually worth participating, challenging and fun.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
173
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 06:08:00 -
[2624] - Quote
I'll make a chart to make things simple
1- Is the fight short? If YES go to 5. If NO continue
2- Did you fit cap boosters? If YES go to 5. If NO continue
3- Do you have logi on field to ask for cap? If YES go to 5. If NO continue
4- You'll probably die before you run out of cap.
5- You are not going to have any cap problems.
One more tip: If you are THAT desperate for cap and you are shooting a non-moving target(i.e. carrier) fit one t2 discharge rig and offline your mwd when shooting.
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Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
195
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:59:00 -
[2625] - Quote
Asking for cap from logi is a **** way to keep your cap up. Your logi can't keep your entire fleet capped up enough to keep sustained dps. But like I said, this is mainly a problem with the navy mega with the utility high. I'm sure the current mega will be ok unless the fight drags on. |
Lugalzagezi666
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 08:19:00 -
[2626] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Asking for cap from logi is a **** way to keep your cap up. I agree, mega and navy mega should have its tracking bonus changed to 10% bonus to large hybrid turret capacitor use per level. Being able to continually shoot carrier or whatever with void for more than 40 minutes is CRUCIAL for their role. Ccp, please change their bonus.
|
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 10:52:00 -
[2627] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote: To put it succinctly, my point is not that I don't want to fit cap boosters, I already do. The point is that I want to be able to fire my bloody guns without having to inject an 800 booster. The cap booster is for countering neuts and being able to run everything else you put on your mega while firing guns.
Let me introduce you to the Rokh - cap stable firing only its blasters or rails. I hope you don't want a tank, though.
Bigg Gun wrote:Cap recharge should've been calculated on a per shooting gun basis, and type of gun with some base cap recharge for all ships, and type of tanking.
example (with made up figures). Every BS gets 10 basic recharge(for prop, hardeners etc.) a mega gets on top of that 7x2.2 or 15.4 cap recharge extra for hybrid gun shooting with ROF bonus or total of 25.4 a hyperion gets 6x2 or 12 cap recharge bonus for it's guns + 10 extra for active repper bonus or total of 32 an apoc gets 8x3 cap bonus for it's guns(lazors getting higher coefficient due to guns using more cap) or 34 cap recharge a maelstrom gets the 10 bonus for local rep bonus but no cap bonus for guns since proj are capless or a total of 20 cap. Domi for instance gets no cap boni other than the base 10 since it will have no bonus to shooting guns and no bonus to tanking so domi cap would be 10. new geddon will get the 10 base + the bonus cap for running neuts....
And so on.
If you follow the formula there would be no need for complicated cap bonuses and no ships running out of cap just by turning on their guns.
Surely a good ship designer would think in advance and not let it's creation to cripple itself just by shooting at enemies and would give the ship as much cap as it needs.
At this point you may as well simply make all guns capless, because they effectively are. Homogenisation at its best. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
173
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 11:35:00 -
[2628] - Quote
One more thing: 3xMFS Neutron Mega is cap stable with CN Thorium ammo and still outdamages competition.
I think with this balance pass gallente battleships have been boosted substantially to acceptable levels and beyond. For close-med range encounters, they have speed to close the gap and apply their dps. For long range engagements RailMega has become quite competetive and will be seen more often. The 'sniper' role of Domi somewhat contraversial. Quite a niche but clever player groups will find very good uses for them.
Time to get creative with it. |
Syreniac
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 11:47:00 -
[2629] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Asking for cap from logi is a **** way to keep your cap up. Your logi can't keep your entire fleet capped up enough to keep sustained dps. But like I said, this is mainly a problem with the navy mega with the utility high. I'm sure the current mega will be ok unless the fight drags on.
If you're telling me that your logis can't spare enough cap transfers to manage a 7.7 cap/s deficit (the amount you run at with Void), I think you're flying with literally terrible logis.
I mean, that's one cycle every 136 seconds. One single logi with a spare large energy transfer could theoretically keep 27 megathrons running without capacitor problems, presuming that you don't feel the need to MWD all over the place without using your own cap booster. Even if you're flying with T1 logis and therefore only medium energy transfers, you still only need one cycle every 45 seconds to keep your capacitor stable.
Even if you don't feel like asking your Logis for cap, which in my experience flying logis in fleets of battleships, everyone does, you can get a > 1 hour running time on the new mega with guns running with cheap implants and a synth mindflood boost. Step that up to a standard or stronger mindflood booster, and you're already running cap stable. In fact, a strong mindflood booster is enough to make you cap stable firing antimatter on its own, and its not that expensive to use boosters if you're literally desperate for a capstable blaster platform. |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 19:06:00 -
[2630] - Quote
On a completely different note: Please re-locate the Hardpoints on the Hyperion Hull - With only 6 Guns and 7 Highs left it would be a great time to make the turrets on the ship stop looking like tumors.
Brilliantly designed ship, and my personal #2 after the redesigned scorpion hulls. but those hardpoints are horrible :( My Condor costs less than that module! |
|
Syreniac
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 19:39:00 -
[2631] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:On a completely different note: Please re-locate the Hardpoints on the Hyperion Hull - With only 6 Guns and 7 Highs left it would be a great time to make the turrets on the ship stop looking like tumors.
Brilliantly designed ship, and my personal #2 after the redesigned scorpion hulls. but those hardpoints are horrible :(
I like the hardpoints, though making it a set of six at each end would be very, very, appreciated. Looking at the model, it doesn't even seem like it would take a massive amount of time to just delete two pairs. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
759
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 23:37:00 -
[2632] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:So is that a no to more cap on the mega to make up for the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus? Use your new low slot for a cap power relay. Bam, problem solved, moving on.
This is exactly what we can call straps on wood legs.
You get to your Doc and he announces you got cancer, you just answer "it's ok, there's radiotherapy and 2pounds of pills a day, problem solved."
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
124
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:35:00 -
[2633] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:ExAstra wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:So is that a no to more cap on the mega to make up for the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus? Use your new low slot for a cap power relay. Bam, problem solved, moving on. This is exactly what we can call straps on wood legs. You get to your Doc and he announces you got cancer, you just answer "it's ok, there's radiotherapy and 2pounds of pills a day, problem solved." It's like nobody understands humor anymore. Save the drones! |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
191
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 10:31:00 -
[2634] - Quote
Roime wrote:idk, I've never even considered flying a Mega without a cap booster. Or any other blaster PVP ship without some counter to cap warfare. Cap stability matters only for POS bashing without logis and NPC corp missioners tbh.
Sh*t, the only TRUE way to efficiently run LvL 4 Missions is NOT cap stable (with Cap Booster) and min tank... Strap as many guns to the ship as it'll hold with the best upgrades and get to the carnage. But on a side note, I can't believe that the petty bickering people are going on about now is being cap stable in the Odyssey Mega using Void. WHYUMADBROS??? If you fit your ship(s) for 100% cap stability doing anything BUT bashing POS towers, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. You're wasting module/rig slots instead of fitting things that would help your fleet/gang/self kill faster. If you kill it/them faster, you won't have to worry about cap now will you, derp. The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Stjaerna Ramundson
Unknown Dimension Alpha Volley Union
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:16:00 -
[2635] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted.
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones.
Suggestion:
Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M (+1), 7L; 4 turrets (-2) , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1100s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 525 (+150) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80 km (+10) / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45)
Highslots: A Dominix is a ship with full focus on drones, so turrets are only a secondary effect. (-1 Highslots / -2 Turrets) Base like the Myrmidon.
As a ship that have to work as a long distance fighter (sniper) it is not realy reasonable to have a low max targeting range. (+10)
As a ship that have a full focus on drones and is heavily dependent on drones, it is not reasonable that a ship with a 4 times more bigger volume than a Cruiser to have lower drone bay space. +150
Example: Gila = 400 m-¦ drone bay as a cruiser (focus on drones) Ishtar = 375 m-¦ drone bay as a cruiser (focus on drones)
both are cruiser and have up to the same or more cargo bay than a BS that have the same focus? That is not reasonable. (My opinion: It is like to create a Obelisk with 100000 base cargo or like a air craft carrier they are only can carry up to 10 aircraft's. The relations are out of place in compare to cruisers size ships with focus on drones. Also the Navy version have the same drone bay than a cruiser.. where is the relation to volumen with drone focus?) 1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erkl+ñrung, L+¦sungsans+ñtzen formulieren. 2. Beitrag enth+ñlt eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema. 3. Negative +äu+ƒerungen, Drohungen usw. gegen++ber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:23:00 -
[2636] - Quote
Stjaerna Ramundson wrote:CCP Rise wrote:THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted.
Dominix:
With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. Suggestion: Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M (+1), 7L; 4 turrets (-2) , 0 launchers Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1100s / 5.51 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 525 (+150) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80 km (+10) / 90 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength Signature radius: 465(+45) Highslots: A Dominix is a ship with full focus on drones, so turrets are only a secondary effect. (-1 Highslots / -2 Turrets) Base like the Myrmidon. As a ship that have to work as a long distance fighter (sniper) it is not realy reasonable to have a low max targeting range. (+10) As a ship that have a full focus on drones and is heavily dependent on drones, it is not reasonable that a ship with a 4 times more bigger volume than a Cruiser to have lower drone bay space. +150 Example: Gila = 400 m-¦ drone bay as a cruiser (focus on drones) Ishtar = 375 m-¦ drone bay as a cruiser (focus on drones) both are cruiser and have up to the same or more cargo bay than a BS that have the same focus? That is not reasonable. (My opinion: It is like to create a Obelisk with 100000 base cargo or like a air craft carrier they are only can carry up to 10 aircraft's. The relations are out of place in compare to cruisers size ships with focus on drones. Also the Navy version have the same drone bay than a cruiser.. where is the relation to volumen with drone focus?)
+1 More CPU would help with the drone mods unless they plan on fixing them instead 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 23:54:00 -
[2637] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I anticipate that somewhere along the line they will be going back and updating every ship to have fresh new models for the change to DX11, Hyperion included since it doesn't currently match the new Gallente paint scheme. The Hyperion will probably see some design changes and with it the hardpoints will be looked at as well.
I secretly hope that the hyperion gets a polish like the Stabber did. I fear that it only gets a slight polish though. We'll see what the future brings for the Hyperion, if it gets a new design that's as good as it's new stats then I will be very happy. My Condor costs less than that module! |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
134
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 06:05:00 -
[2638] - Quote
Neggravity Gravity wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
CCP has declared that the Mega is an "Attack" battleship. It's not supposed to be in long, drawn-out brawling fights. Attack Battleships are supposed to get in quick, do what what they came to do and kill the target (or be killed) in reasonably short order. If you want a drawn-out fight, the Combat Battleships are designed more with that in mind.
This ^ is the New Ship that I've been training for and saving for these last couple of weeks. A Battleship to get in, Kick Ass and Get Out! I thought it was going to be the Hyperion but maybe I've been wrong up until now. From what I have seen of the Hyperion it will still do just that for you. I've got a couple killmails on some that took over 180k damage and were being railed on by a few Vindicators and Megathrons. We were overheating to kill that SOB too. Save the drones! |
Dirk Gentry
Aqua DE Vida
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 07:49:00 -
[2639] - Quote
cool! |
Jon Chninkel
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 10:13:00 -
[2640] - Quote
You're killing the megathron.
Give this ship the ability to be a real nanothron, or let it in peace. The change of the bonus and drones made me cry. |
|
Temai
The Scope
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 12:57:00 -
[2641] - Quote
Do Want.
looks awsome. dont think it will happen thou
- Temai - Lost in Space looking for a Home dreaming of building outpost's acrross EVE - |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
771
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:28:00 -
[2642] - Quote
Christ !! This thing looks really good.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Stjaerna Ramundson
Unknown Dimension Alpha Volley Union
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 16:00:00 -
[2643] - Quote
beautiful 1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erkl+ñrung, L+¦sungsans+ñtzen formulieren. 2. Beitrag enth+ñlt eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema. 3. Negative +äu+ƒerungen, Drohungen usw. gegen++ber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Error-404
460
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 16:17:00 -
[2644] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:This minus the ridiculously lego block looks nice in my opinion. Also those quad rear thrusters are "Meh" and can go. We only need the ring of thrusters and the fore mounted aux thrusters.
Agreed that it has an overly lego look to it however the more "streamlined" look to it is visually appealing. I disagree with ya about the quad rear thrusters tho, I really like them on that updated Hyperion Concept.
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 16:34:00 -
[2645] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:ExAstra wrote:This minus the ridiculously lego block looks nice in my opinion. Also those quad rear thrusters are "Meh" and can go. We only need the ring of thrusters and the fore mounted aux thrusters. Agreed that it has an overly lego look to it however the more "streamlined" look to it is visually appealing. I disagree with ya about the quad rear thrusters tho, I really like them on that updated Hyperion Concept. They'd be okay if they weren't so blocky. The Hyperion should be smooth to the touch the whole ship over, and those thrusters on the back stick out from the ship a bit much and are too square. Obviously the best part of the design are the primary thrusters given the connected ring, with the streamlined slant. That really sells the whole thing.
I'm also incredibly surprised that you guys haven't seen it before. Save the drones! |
Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 17:14:00 -
[2646] - Quote
When I think of pure drone ship, I see these bonuses applied.
Dominix
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed
Role Bonus: 1000% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System range 100% bonus to Logistic Drone repair amount
And add a larger drone bay, we're supposed to be flying battleships aren't we
Notice I didn't put in any remote rep cap bonuses. It still has to juggle between drone and cap mods to be effective in a fleet. This ship is also limited by complete destruction of its dps. It spare highs could have neuts though.
I would go so far as to say zero turrets but you need one in order to activate assisted drones. Thats another thing CCP needs to work on. There needs to be module buttoning of drones on the hud in order to activate assisted fleet drones, or something to that effect.
|
J A Aloysiusz
Precision Strike Brigade Angeli Mortis
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 23:57:00 -
[2647] - Quote
Would it not make more sense to have the Hyperion as the attack battleship? An active tank would complement the role, since it does not penalize speed/mobility. And on the flip side, the Megathron has 8 lows and will likely be fit triple plated and triple trimarked, greatly reducing the mobile aspect of the "attack" role.
And really, the hyperion looks wa-ha-hay more aerodynamic than the megathron. Not that that makes a difference in space (I'm looking at you, vagabond!), but it's got more thrusters too. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
11
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 00:17:00 -
[2648] - Quote
Not sure what to think of the Ring on that Hyperion Model. It looks cool, but it also doesn't feel functional. Granted, many Eve ship models are NOT know for their functional appearance.... See Burst for example.
That being said, THAT has a much stronger, more cohesive design, a much stronger presence if you will, than the current Hyperion Model.
The Law is a point of View |
Stjaerna Ramundson
Unknown Dimension Alpha Volley Union
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 01:47:00 -
[2649] - Quote
Yaturi wrote:When I think of pure drone ship, I see these bonuses applied.
Dominix
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints +10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System range 20% bonus to Logistic Drone repair amount
Larger drone bay is a must too.
Notice I didn't put in any remote rep cap bonuses. It still has to juggle between drone and cap mods to be effective in a fleet. This ship is also limited by complete destruction of its dps. It spare highs could have neuts though.
I would go so far as to say zero turrets but you need one in order to activate assisted drones. Thats another thing CCP needs to work on. There needs to be module buttoning of drones on the hud in order to activate assisted fleet drones, or something to that effect.
I would put this idea to the navy version :) 1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erkl+ñrung, L+¦sungsans+ñtzen formulieren. 2. Beitrag enth+ñlt eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema. 3. Negative +äu+ƒerungen, Drohungen usw. gegen++ber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen. |
Eliniale
Co-operative Resource Extraction
145
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 11:05:00 -
[2650] - Quote
Please leave the hyperion alone. It's fine as it is.
Making a model desgined to carry eight guns carry only six is just silly.
It doesn't need more drones, it doesn't need less mids, it doesn't need a utility high, and it most certainly doesn't need another low.
The powergrid it can use, but again it doesn't need it. certainly not if you're going to be decreasing the number of guns.
So in essence you borked this on up completely. I'm good with the mega and domi changes though. (although making the domi even slower is anoying, with the added tank it makes sense) System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread |
|
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
194
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 11:43:00 -
[2651] - Quote
Quote:I secretly hope that the hyperion gets a polish like the Stabber did. I fear that it only gets a slight polish though. We'll see what the future brings for the Hyperion, if it gets a new design that's as good as it's new stats then I will be very happy. Yeah as it sits now the Hype is a giant plastic arm looking thing. It's skin is terrible.
Quote:Please leave the hyperion alone. It's fine as it is.
Making a model desgined to carry eight guns carry only six is just silly.
It doesn't need more drones, it doesn't need less mids, it doesn't need a utility high, and it most certainly doesn't need another low.
The powergrid it can use, but again it doesn't need it. certainly not if you're going to be decreasing the number of guns.
So in essence you borked this on up completely.
You obviously have no concept of how to fly the Hype properly. The changes are looking to actually be a little too OP, but hell I'm not complaining. The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 12:04:00 -
[2652] - Quote
Borderline OP Hyperion is best Hyperion. Don't care if they won't make fleet doctrines for it if I can rampage across low sec with it. Save the drones! |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company
49
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 12:14:00 -
[2653] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Borderline OP Hyperion is best Hyperion. Don't care if they won't make fleet doctrines for it if I can rampage across low sec with it.
Wouldn't call it borderline OP, you can't field Ogre IIs unless you forsaken any chance of ever killing a frigate and you already lost some DPS with the 2 less turrets.
It will be one hell of a solo BS though. My Condor costs less than that module! |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 12:25:00 -
[2654] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:ExAstra wrote:Borderline OP Hyperion is best Hyperion. Don't care if they won't make fleet doctrines for it if I can rampage across low sec with it. It will be one hell of a solo BS though. Like I said in a previous post, we took one down on SiSi, but.. it just refused to go. Actually here you go (I removed the ammo and stuff so you can just see how it was fit):
2013.05.10 09:47:00
Victim: synlink Corp: Tr0pa de elite. Alliance: Pandemic Legion Faction: Unknown Destroyed: Hyperion System: 6-CZ49 Security: -0.2 Damage Taken: 186892
Involved parties:
Name: ExAstra (laid the final blow) Security: 5.00 Corp: Echoes of Silence Alliance: Kraken. Faction: None Ship: Megathron Weapon: Neutron Blaster Cannon II Damage Done: 47893
Name: Denis10 Security: 5.0 Corp: XD LOL XD Alliance: None Faction: None Ship: Vindicator Weapon: 'Integrated' Hornet Damage Done: 45879
Name: Cpt Ventura Security: 5.0 Corp: M-A-T-R-I-X ACADEMY Alliance: M-A-T-R-I-X Allianz Faction: None Ship: Vindicator Weapon: Vindicator Damage Done: 37626
Name: Liafcipe9000 Security: -1.6 Corp: Smeghead Empire Alliance: None Faction: None Ship: Megathron Navy Issue Weapon: Megathron Navy Issue Damage Done: 36550
Name: Constapatris Security: -6.4 Corp: Southern Cross Trilogy Alliance: None Faction: None Ship: Apocalypse Weapon: Curator II Damage Done: 13720
Name: SMT008 Security: 4.6 Corp: SnaiLs aNd FroGs Alliance: None Faction: None Ship: Moros Weapon: Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I Damage Done: 5079
Name: Mr Yakudza Security: -9.9 Corp: DAB Alliance: Black Legion. Faction: None Ship: Erebus Weapon: Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I Damage Done: 145
Name: Era'kanath Security: 5.0 Corp: 9th Fleet-Seraphins Alliance: Gold-Plate Industries Faction: None Ship: Avatar Weapon: Dual Modal Giga Pulse Laser I Damage Done: 0
Destroyed items:
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Large Anti-Explosive Pump II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Ion Blaster Cannon II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Dropped items:
Damage Control II Warp Scrambler II Ion Blaster Cannon II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer Heavy Capacitor Booster II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Large Armor Repairer II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Ion Blaster Cannon II Heavy Capacitor Booster II Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Reactive Armor Hardener
Save the drones! |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company
49
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 12:46:00 -
[2655] - Quote
I dare to say that boosters and probably a slaveset were involved in that fight. But yes, it is one extremly strong ship if active tanked.
The Tank is strong, but the DPS aren't that great. But I happily trade some DPS for a utility high. A Heavy Neut can be worth so much :)
Can't wait for the changes to happen :3 My Condor costs less than that module! |
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 13:28:00 -
[2656] - Quote
In another game the best solo-ship would be the best gang-ship. Here... NOT. It's surrealist. The Abaddon and the Rokh are the best solo-ships and also are the most used BS's for large blobs in 0.0 because his EHP, either armor or shield, as is a bonus that makes a ship really powerful, no matter if repped or not. Here... CCP has said so many times to extend the game for gangs, and make the game less profitable for a solo-player, that got you think in a ship in matters of solo-gang performance. It's plain stupid. Please, forget to think that Gallente is OP as it's the most useless thing I have ever read in these forums.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7470221568/h5C69A434/ http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp |
Jerick Ludhowe
Error-404
460
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 09:57:00 -
[2657] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:ExAstra wrote:Borderline OP Hyperion is best Hyperion. Don't care if they won't make fleet doctrines for it if I can rampage across low sec with it. Wouldn't call it borderline OP, you can't field Ogre IIs unless you forsaken any chance of ever killing a frigate and you already lost some DPS with the 2 less turrets. It will be one hell of a solo BS though.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Hyperion has 50m3 extra bay (after fitting 5x heavies) and a heavy nuet. The ship also has received a low slot that if used for a dmg mod allows the 6 turret hyperion with 50% dmg bonus to dish more than the old 8 turret hyperion of the past in armor setup.
|
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
143
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 11:24:00 -
[2658] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:I dare to say that boosters and probably a slaveset were involved in that fight. But yes, it is one extremly strong ship if active tanked.
The Tank is strong, but the DPS aren't that great. But I happily trade some DPS for a utility high. A Heavy Neut can be worth so much :)
Can't wait for the changes to happen :3
/edit: forgot Off-Grid Boosters. It's entirely possible. Though on Duality I never lost in a 1 on 1 with my Hyperion to another battleship, even some that were fitted specifically against me. My fit was slightly unconventional but hell did it work.
Even so, boosters aren't too uncommon for small gang pvp, where the Hyperion still shines brightly. I don't think it will see much use in large fleets but the Megathron I am almost certain will be seen more in large fleets, albeit it may not become a staple.
Or probably won't, rather. Save the drones! |
Mother Drone
Transcendent Breed
4
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Posted - 2013.06.03 11:51:00 -
[2659] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:TehCloud wrote:I dare to say that boosters and probably a slaveset were involved in that fight. But yes, it is one extremly strong ship if active tanked.
The Tank is strong, but the DPS aren't that great. But I happily trade some DPS for a utility high. A Heavy Neut can be worth so much :)
Can't wait for the changes to happen :3
/edit: forgot Off-Grid Boosters. It's entirely possible. Though on Duality I never lost in a 1 on 1 with my Hyperion to another battleship, even some that were fitted specifically against me. My fit was slightly unconventional but hell did it work. Even so, boosters aren't too uncommon for small gang pvp, where the Hyperion still shines brightly. I don't think it will see much use in large fleets but the Megathron I am almost certain will be seen more in large fleets, albeit it may not become a staple. Or probably won't, rather.
Two things: Duality. Arranged 1vs.1. Nothing more to say about your "experience".
Now start playing "real" EvE low-sec and come back ... Pr0 tip for all wannabe EFT warrior: even an awsome solo battleship is worthless when solo battleship fights are non existent / instant death.
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Jerick Ludhowe
Error-404
460
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Posted - 2013.06.03 12:59:00 -
[2660] - Quote
Mother Drone wrote:
Two things: Duality. Arranged 1vs.1. Nothing more to say about your "experience".
Now start playing "real" EvE low-sec and come back ... Pr0 tip for all wannabe EFT warrior: even an awsome solo battleship is worthless when solo battleship fights are non existent / instant death.
Hyperion is good for lowsec in its current form and will be amazing after the odyssey changes... I don't know how you could say "now start playing "real" eve low-sec" ect ect... The reality is that the hyperion has every little advantage an active armor tanker could have. It's got a massive tank, good dps 1k-1.1k, a utility high for nueting frigates, and 50m3 spare bay for dealing with frigs or for ecm drones....
I guarantee you that you will be seeing many "solo" Hyperions after the patch. I also guarantee you that taking a Solo fit hyperion with pills will be anything other than "instant death". The survivability shown by the new hyperion against multiple bs, some fitting nuets, is a great indicator of it's overall worthiness in it's role.
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TehCloud
Carnivore Company
49
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Posted - 2013.06.03 13:08:00 -
[2661] - Quote
Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter. My Condor costs less than that module! |
Jerick Ludhowe
Error-404
460
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 13:22:00 -
[2662] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter.
So wait, 6 or more mids are now required for an armor ship to be viable in solo pvp? What a ******* joke of a rebuttal....
As for it being easy to counter... Going to be far harder to counter than a Sleipnir or Maelstrom due to far more drones and a heavy nuet. Both The sleipnir and Maelstrom have done bang up jobs in lowsec.
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ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
144
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Posted - 2013.06.03 14:18:00 -
[2663] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:TehCloud wrote:Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter. So wait, 6 or more mids are now required for an armor ship to be viable in solo pvp? What a ******* joke of a rebuttal.... As for it being easy to counter... Going to be far harder to counter than a Sleipnir or Maelstrom due to far more drones and a heavy nuet. Both The sleipnir and Maelstrom have done bang up jobs in lowsec. Leave it man, the changes are going through regardless of what they believe. They can whine as they like. Save the drones! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
340
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Posted - 2013.06.03 18:48:00 -
[2664] - Quote
I guess a ship will never be OP enough for some people to be worth flying... |
Perihelion Olenard
171
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Posted - 2013.06.03 21:29:00 -
[2665] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter. Sounds like you need to hop in a navy Dominix if you really need six mids to solo in an armor-tanking ship. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company
49
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Posted - 2013.06.04 05:38:00 -
[2666] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:TehCloud wrote:Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter. Sounds like you need to hop in a navy Dominix if you really need six mids to solo in an armor-tanking ship.
All I'm saying with that is, you will get killed easily, because you have to either fly without a propmod, or without eccm, if theres a BB or a Falcon and you have no eccm, the fight's already over.
My Condor costs less than that module! |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
147
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Posted - 2013.06.04 11:17:00 -
[2667] - Quote
The fight's also over if you get hot dropped, or run into a really well organized gate camp. Or a small gang with heavy logistics support. Or a 50 man frigate fleet.
Better not undock, I guess. Save the drones! |
Jerick Ludhowe
Error-404
465
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Posted - 2013.06.04 12:25:00 -
[2668] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:TehCloud wrote:Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter. Sounds like you need to hop in a navy Dominix if you really need six mids to solo in an armor-tanking ship. All I'm saying with that is, you will get killed easily, because you have to either fly without a propmod, or without eccm, if theres a BB or a Falcon and you have no eccm, the fight's already over.
Dude, the fight is more or less over in any ship if you're solo and a hostile gang you're fighting has heavy ecm support....
You're just bringing up over the top extremes in an attempt to disprove that the Hyperion is going to be beast mode solo ship...
Lucky for us (the non idiots) it's patch day and we can start trolling the space lanes in our new 2k+ tank hyperions with over the top drone bays, utility high, and 1.1k dps. |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company
49
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Posted - 2013.06.04 15:23:00 -
[2669] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:TehCloud wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:TehCloud wrote:Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter. Sounds like you need to hop in a navy Dominix if you really need six mids to solo in an armor-tanking ship. All I'm saying with that is, you will get killed easily, because you have to either fly without a propmod, or without eccm, if theres a BB or a Falcon and you have no eccm, the fight's already over. Dude, the fight is more or less over in any ship if you're solo and a hostile gang you're fighting has heavy ecm support.... You're just bringing up over the top extremes in an attempt to disprove that the Hyperion is going to be beast mode solo ship... Lucky for us (the non idiots) it's patch day and we can start trolling the space lanes in our new 2k+ tank hyperions with over the top drone bays, utility high, and 1.1k dps.
Hyperion is a great solo ship, i never denied that. I just said it's not as awesome as people think it to be, and by no means OP, since it can be counterd easily. Almost every lowsec fights ends in ecm spam, this kills the ship, but to be fair, that kills most ships.
@ExAstra, almost every little lowsec guy has ecm either fitted, or drones, or an alt in a falcon. Being hotdropped or getting into a gang is far less frequently, though not uncommon :3 My Condor costs less than that module! |
drake duka
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2013.06.04 16:32:00 -
[2670] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:TehCloud wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:TehCloud wrote:Hyperion will NOT be awesome for solo pvp in lowsec for one special reason:
It lacks a midslot. You either have to play without a propmod, allowing you to fit neutrons, or you play without ECCM, which means a griffin alone could be your demise.
On paper, the ship is awesome, but ingame it's easy to counter. A still remains aa strong ship, but as I said it's easy to counter. Sounds like you need to hop in a navy Dominix if you really need six mids to solo in an armor-tanking ship. All I'm saying with that is, you will get killed easily, because you have to either fly without a propmod, or without eccm, if theres a BB or a Falcon and you have no eccm, the fight's already over. Dude, the fight is more or less over in any ship if you're solo and a hostile gang you're fighting has heavy ecm support.... You're just bringing up over the top extremes in an attempt to disprove that the Hyperion is going to be beast mode solo ship... Lucky for us (the non idiots) it's patch day and we can start trolling the space lanes in our new 2k+ tank hyperions with over the top drone bays, utility high, and 1.1k dps. Hyperion is a great solo ship, i never denied that. I just said it's not as awesome as people think it to be, and by no means OP, since it can be counterd easily. Almost every lowsec fights ends in ecm spam, this kills the ship, but to be fair, that kills most ships. @ExAstra, almost every little lowsec guy has ecm either fitted, or drones, or an alt in a falcon. Being hotdropped or getting into a gang is far less frequently, though not uncommon :3 /edit: I like how people react as if I'd claim the hyperion is a bad ship, i love this ship already and now even more. I just say how it is, the ship is strong, but easy to counter. These are problems with solo pvp (especially bs) in general. Any single ship is countered easily, very obvious. You have to compare it to other solo bs to see how it performs relative to them.
Hyperion will be extremely strong relative to its peers. Since solo nano-bs isn't a possibility except for mach or tempest (lol), hype will be by far the best solo bs.
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
129
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Posted - 2013.06.06 20:45:00 -
[2671] - Quote
When are these going be unstickied to give Page 1 back to Player Posts? Odyssey is in and the Feedback and Issues threads are active. Why not replace these with a "Link Sticky" to those two threads?
We all know how lazy we are to go clicking...wait for it...past Page 3 of this Forum section. My Feature\Idea:-á Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
Leucy Kerastase
650BN
14
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Posted - 2013.06.30 07:27:00 -
[2672] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones GÇô no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind. ^^ Still no news on this yet? Really looking forward to hearing what this is going to be like. EVE-J: Translations of EVE related stuff (mainly dev posts) into Japanese. |
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